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European Finance Ministers Driven To Despair As Reality Returns
The release of the Troika report (stating the what-we-all-know that is much larger haircuts will be needed for any type of debt sustainability) seemed to bring events this weekend in Europe to an early halt, according to SudDeutsche. As the sheer mathematical certainty of the event horizon that is Europe these days is slammed at light speed into the foreheads of the European cognoscenti, we finally see some actual frustration, foot-stomping, and 'throw-your-teddy-bear-out-of-the-pram'-ness. The Telegraph reports on some choice turns-of-phrase among the leading players, our favorite being:
"It was grim. The worst mood I have ever seen, a complete mess," said one eurozone finance minister.
But it only got better from there, with several of the major movers feeling the need to express their frustration (and what is German for Schadenfreude?) at the lunacy of what SudDeutsche reports was in the Troika debt sustainability report (via Google Translate).
The numbers that the Troika on Friday evening on the debt situation in Greece is presented, have altered the agenda of the Euro-Finance completely. Really wanted the department heads to advise [if] they need to convince the country's private creditors to agree on a bigger discount on the bonds held by them, than the previously planned 21 percent.
But the "if" was suddenly a "how high?". Because the inspectors of the Greek lender describe in their "debt sustainability report," a scenario that far surpasses any fears. The country needs even under "normal" conditions, so if everything goes as planned with the reforming and saving, at least 252 billion euros , by 2020 to get back on its feet.
If the economy collapses further, state enterprises can not be privatized as hoped, nor do the reforms [produce the] € 444 billion needed to [please] the inspectors. So it is suddenly clear: the euro rescue fund EFSF is hardly sufficient for more countries to save, and his successor, the latest from 2013 operational ESM also not good.
...
"It is clear that a substantial debt cut is necessary," however, said Swedish Finance Minister Anders Borg....
The Exchequer George Osborne sharply criticized the actions of the euro partners: "The crisis in the euro-zone causes major damage in many European economies, including Britain," he shouted in Brussels, adding: "We have had enough of short-term measures, it enough, paving draufzukleben that bring us through the next few weeks. " Europe must tackle the causes of the crisis. Used to be a comprehensive and lasting solution to the crisis, so that growth in Europe could begin rising again.
... The Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn announced immediately to resist. "What we need now is rest and no whip," he said.
A stronger economic cooperation is also possible on the basis of existing treaties. "It is important that we do not open another front," said Asselborn. "It can not be that domestic political considerations of even the greatest country outweigh everything."
It was clear that the reality of the size of loan required to 'solve' Greece alone will likely leave the cupboard bare:
Jan Kees de Jager, the Dutch finance minister, told colleagues: "We've got to get real. People are talking about new defences but with one gulp the whole €440 billion could be gone, leaving the eurozone with no protection at all."
Schaeuble-to-Everyone:
According to insiders, Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's finance minister, could not resist taking an "I told you so" approach - he had been, after all, the first to call for an "orderly" default for Greece 18 months ago, at a time when the cost of such a move was less than one third of the price today.
"Schaeuble is a man who does not mince his words, whose reputation for harshness and arrogance is well earned. He was, frankly, unbearable," said one diplomat.
And Baroin (France) to IMF swiftly followed by Lagarde (France/IMF)'s slapdown:
Francois Baroin, the young and inexperienced French finance minister,
attempted to hit back, complaining that the IMF's default medicine would hit
France the hardest; the country's banks are highly exposed and could
threaten its "untouchable" AAA rating.
But Mrs Lagarde, who had held his post until taking up the IMF job this
summer, "shut him up" by brandishing the report and pointing to it
its detailed figures. "She really slapped him down - and in perfect
English too, a language he cannot speak," said a diplomat.
We suspect many of the attendees (finance ministers) have not actually spoken to one another, read any serious research, or even attempted to comprehend the whole-versus-the-single sub-optimal decisions they face (until very recently) as their voluminous outbursts were incredible:
"Their shouting could be heard down the corridor in the concert hall where an orchestra was about to play the EU's anthem, Ode to Joy," said an incredulous EU official.
It did not stop there as the pointlessness of the meeting was highlighted as it became increasingly clear that the good old Franco-German comradeship may be fraying at the core and at the edges and without them.
Finance ministers - including George Osborne, the Chancellor - expressed frustration on Saturday that their emergency meeting could take no decisions of substance until Mrs Merkel and Mr Sarkozy had buried the hatchet.
"This Ecofin meeting has been reduced to an academic seminar, an exercise with absolutely no purpose," complained one finance minister. complained one finance minister.
For those expecting any solution that is more than a simple kick-the-can hold-your-breath for the final solution, we suggest hedges asap on Sunday night as it is crystal clear that nothing of substance will be created soon and furthermore, we wonder whether this is some elaborate global game to force the Fed to rescue everyone by flooding it with greenbacks.
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Don't work on your own car, then. Creepers remind you just how long your hair is....
There is actually a crisis in consciousness now far greater than any financial or economic crisis.
1) If you default why not default 100%? In the interest of your country.
2) Will PMs move up from here? A lot of printing is certain and those shakeouts were so nasty you nearly do not want to look at PMs if you trade with leverage.
3) German MSM and tabloid papers now tell the sheeples to consume food past date of expiry. If you need trillons you need to start somewhere.
I am surprised ZH hasn't latched onto a particular issue.
Default may not expunge the debt.
Greece can miss interest payments. The banks owed the payments declare them in default and ALL, repeat, ALL debt becomes due immediately. There is no 10% haircut. You miss a payment, you're in default and you owe it ALL that moment.
So you think then that if Greece declares that debt expunged it is expunged?
This isn't US bankruptcy we're talking about where a court declares debts cancelled on filing the paperwork. This is sovereign debt. The bank says . . . you didn't make a payment. We demanded our money back. You failed to give it to us. Okay. We'll just continue compounding it and if you are ever on your feet in the future, we'll come confiscate your accounts from wherever you have assets.
The debt might never go away, even in default.
Can Countries Go Bankrupt?
Sovereign nations like Greece cannot go bankrupt. What happens instead is a process called sovereign default whereby a nation renegotiates the terms of the debt (including the interest rate, the length of the loan, the schedule of repayments, etc.) and/or replaces it with new debt. This process generally leaves the original creditors with about 25-50% of the amount they originally loaned.
Read more: http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0510/Greece-The-Worst-Case-Scenario.aspx#ixzz1bZC61a6x
That's a good article, but it's not the worst case. Banks are not required to renegotiate anything. There has been at least 1 Argentina default where bills reappeared 25 years later.
Nobody's collecting on the pre-revolution Tsarist bonds or pre-Mao bonds.
A total, 100% default cannot be ruled out.
Atypical perhaps, but very possible.
In the first paragraph is a link to a Telegraph article (Brit newspaper, the one Ambrose writes for).
Near the end of that article it discussed how that loathsome, gollum like creature (Herman Van Rompuy, the EU president) was pushing for consolidated fiscal control. Van Rompuy is merely an agent for the banksters, consider him the EU counterpart to Timmy Geithner.
Keep your eye on the donut and not on the hole. The banking elite that controls politicians & bureaucrats seek to parley this crisis they created into even greater power & control for themselves.
Yes, debt is how bankers have always gained power, and on the national government level there are no laws limiting what bankers can do with a government in default, seize it, take over control of it, whatever.
...exactly what happened here in America circa 1920 incidentally, when the constitutional federal government was officially taken over by bankers, original constitution eliminated, etc.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo, big revision.
Once again, useless to split US citizens into sub groups in order to try to divert attention from the root cause, US citizens.
A long list of bankers who got hanged exist. So bankers did not gain power through debt.
But what? Oh yes, the current story is that bankers are going to take a haircut and harsh one.
It is a two standard policy when compared to what happened elsewhere in the rest of the world.
No repo for European nations.
It shows that the breaking line is on being US citizens and not being US citizens, not bankers and non bankers.
US citizens should try to limit on their cheap propaganda as the more they do, the cheaper their propaganda gets.
Here, claiming a repo or something when bankers are going to take a haircut is too gross for anyone to be guiled by save by willingful agreement.
I wonder why no one bothers to reply to AnAnonymous...
He just sits in the corner and mumbles to himself. It apparently makes him feel better.
some truth hurts, lots of peeps won't go down a road they fear.
simple.
ignore what you dare not face.
bullish
The Fed may attempt to flood the world with greenbacks but I would submit they had better get their asses on the next plane out of here.
Regarding LaGarde, didn't the French banks expand their exposure under her watch?
Markets don't care about this side-show. QE3 and swap lines are the atomic bomb hopiums of the bulls. Can the Global Bank Cartel pull it off one more time? Will anybody care? Evil bastards...
did i leave my iron on?
Ladies and Gentlemen:
These are the scions of the people who brought you WWI and WWII. What do you expect?
Cramer says its all good. So you should "BUY, BUY, BUY!!!"
Cramer says its all good. So you should "BUY, BUY, BUY!!!"
The entire EU idea was a fantasy aimed more at keeping Europeans from each other’s throats than any sort of real economic union, so the solution to this mess will also be fantastical. The markets said last week that such a solution, not founded in reality, but like the union itself born in a world of dreams, will be good enough.
Greece will default, albeit within the Euro. The country might even be redefined as a “bad bank” or a “financially failed state" (FFS), a land where other impossible-to-pay EU member debt will be dumped in the same way the British Empire once dumped it societal dregs in Australia. Pireus will be the new Botany Bay.
Banks will be forced to take a small haircut for appearances‘ sake, but they will also be given a seven year window during which time capital level requirements will be relaxed. The rest of the bad debt will be funded by an amorphous EFSF, into which member states commit to allocate funds over a multi-year period. Eurobonds will be sold to raise some of the capital, bonds that will carry an above market rate so as to entice yield-starved buyers. The principle---well, that’s something for the future to worry about. In truth it won‘t matter anyway, since as part of QE-E, Bernanke will be a major buyer of this new paper. The IMF also will fund, along with the Euro members, the bad bank that is Greece, supposedly lending a degree of respectability to the whole thing, respectability being a euphemism for the US Taxpayer (for whom nobody really has any respect).
Greece will be given a small yearly allowance, like the neer-do-well son of rich family, and told to make something of itself other than an embarrassment. Street disturbances will be considered for inclusion as a sport in some future Olympics, the idea of which will immediately make the Greeks feel better about themselves and might even send a handful of them back to work.
The Fed will reiterate its willingness to maintain unlimited swap lines with any EU government, which---together with the IMF contribution----will shift a good deal more of the rescue burden on to the US.
The Euros will announce something that everyone knows is necessary, but impossible, which is a central EU tax authority. Clearly this will never fly, but it will buy time while everyone pretends they are holding their noses and committing to it. Of course the day a Greek shipping magnate allows a German bureaucrat to dictate the former’s tax rate is the day Angelo Mozilo wins the Nobel Prize for Economics.
Euro markets and the S&P will soar this week since “finally someone is taking real action (sic)”. The Euro will end the week in the low to mid 1.40s, gold around $1750. As for the dollar, with Bernanke and Geithner committed to making it the world’s door mat, it will be so. Wipe your feet on the way out.
Of course none of this makes a lick of sense, and all it does is irritate the responsible. The fact is, it achieves the desired goal, which is postponing the inevitable until current leaders can become former leaders, and with generous pensions at that.
As the markets soar and the cold weather hits the eastern seaboard of the US, OWS will slowly break up and the protesters will return to saving horned newts in Colorado forests, getting yet another advanced degree in Gender Studies, going to South Padre Island or Fort Lauderdale on Spring Break, or panhandling for spare change to get home.
You don't understand swaps, either, and took a lot of paras to show it.
Actually I do, having spent a career in the industry, but thanks for the complement. The "lick of sense" phrase toward the end was to be a giveaway to all but the pedantic. The post is satirical, since I suspect the EU will "solve" the problem merely by throwing a lot of convoluted and poorly defined programs and salves at what ails them. I do suspect that the more absurd the solution, the better the market will embrace it.
As for the length, next time I will stick to the original and pithy "silver bitchez" or "this is going to fall apart faster than most people think", link to some YouTube music video or an infowars column, or blame the "Joos". I've learned my lesson. I forgot for a second who the audience is.
Ah yes- along with the psuedo-intellectual "I was just kidding/ being satirical" addendum thrown in when we realize we posted something really stupid.....
No, you caught me. I really was being deadly serious, as anyone who has read my posts and articles for the last two and a half years will know. I never joke. I'm as somber as a Swiss Bank regulator.
Looks like "Ralph" below oinked you.
Well, I liked it. Not sure if that's a compliment since I'd put myself at the lower end of the scale in terms of understanding these issues. I don't mean compared to Joe Sixpack, but to the big brains that post here.
The main reason I like it is that I'm sick of watching this pot waiting for it to boil. Everything about why it should blow up is exactly correct, but it never does blow up.
I'm just an impressionable young (OK old) lad. My tummy was all achurned about 3 weeks ago when Karl Denninger said we were days, maybe even hours away from a complete global finiancial sieze-up and meltdown. He said that on a Monday, after the US stock market went down yet again. Immediately we proceeded to have the stock markets go up like a rocket to the tune of a 10% gain since then.
Every single time we are seconds away from exploding "all is solved" and the markets go on another tear.
This is the biggest convoluted mess I've ever seen in my life and if there was any justice in the universe it would crash into a smoldering heap. But apparently there is no justice in the universe. I want to see it crash because it is built on lies. But I'm starting to think that the minipulators have more games than ZH posters have pixels to explain why it's game over.
So what you said seemed plausable to me, every bit as plausible and even more so than having the truth prevail.
Satire bitchez......and pearls before swine apparently.
Chindit's satire bites because it has the ring of truth.
You just know 'the authorities' are going to paper over this boiling clusterfuck with some absurd subterfuge.
IT IS RIDICULOUS, THEREFORE I BELIEVE IT.
If you're writing the article, feel free to expound, but we mortals are merely scanning thru 200 comments to see if anyone has more than two brain cells to rub together, and freakin 300 word "satirical" comments are just annoying.
"If you're writing the article, feel free to expound,"
Thanks for giving me permission to speak on your website. Tyler wrote me an email and told me I should comment more, but who the hell is he? I'll try to behave in the future and not waste upwards of 3/4's of a second of your time.
Me slow reeder. No able reed fast. Why I not skip over what yoo write I don't no but I will complain anyway.
Me no get why you ware pith.
Actually I do, having spent a career in the industry, but thanks for the complement.
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It only shows that being a US citizen was enough to secure a lifelong career. Nothing else.
When experts profess wrong statements, their experts'status does not make their statement right. It simply shows that they were favoured in their position through cronyism.
And US citizenism is about cronyism.
Time to split:
www.SouthGaRealEstateReport.comYeah, we are all bloodthirsty huns with bad body odor here in Europe and our women never shave too. Just waiting for some bloody action unlike peace loving Americans.
You guys never go to war with false pretenses or never show off with big guns, just for fun. No way, you are all deep thinking Platos and his students there, wondering the meaning of life and the complex behaviour of women.
http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/118.cfm
What is the cost of a Benny bucks backstop to the Eurocircus and what are the benefits to the American Oligarch? Isn't it the obvious (only) answer, in spite of the drama and denials?
The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
which paper do investors flee to now? me thinks the yen or aussie dollar. usd is so last month. gold won't really catch fire until the final collapse of paper currencies. the sheep love their fiat too much. thats why so many millions will lose everything. trying to get physical gold and silver will be like trying to fit a burst from the hoover dam out through a garden hose.
Bundesbank president Weidmann says repeatedly expanding EFSF won’t resolve crisis
Fitch says any EU plan won’t solve ratings woes
Let us finally pull the plug of the EUSSR! (google trans from German)
Europe’s lost decade as $7 trillion loan crunch looms
– 0 – FORCE MAJEURE! – Call Void All Bankster Bogus Derivative Debts! Because paying off these trough fraud induced debts have become a technical and practical impossibility.Webster Tarpley: "So, cut those debts and whipe out all the derivatives. That’s gotto be the key demand!" European Sovereign Debt – Can’t We All Just ‘Net’ Along? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/european-sovereign-debt-cant-we-all-just-n...
Alright, this report steps it up a notch for me, in terms of the "Secret that must not be named" coming one step closer to being unveiled to a horrified and traumatized public. Which will instantly turn to bloodthirsty rage and chaos, the likes of which we haven't known for thousands of years in human history.
My heartbeat is racing, and I have actually been expecting this for months, if not years.
Is it too late to try that "Bad bank" trick? You know, just set up a special bank, call it "Europa's Mistake", shove all these nasty debt monsters inside the premises, and then walk away and forget it exists. Create a new "Good bank" that will instantly recapitalize the states, the banks, the companies, and the general populace. There, solved it for ya.
Well, it had to end badly... The only solvent institution that will remain after the European collapse will be the RC Church.
Bankers finally feeling "despair"..."fear"..."anger"....good to hear since the average Joe has been feeling this for the past several years.
According to the London Telegraph, European Union chiefs are drawing up plans for a single "Treasury" to oversee tax and spending across the 17 eurozone nations. The proposal is being put forth by Herman Van Rompuy, the European Council president.
This is fine, if that is what they decide and do. But if this is achieved, those 17 nations should surrender their national place at international institutions, to be replaced with a sole representation from their union.
And the first seat they should surrender is their U.N. seat. Indiana and North Carolina have greater GDP than some eurozone members, but they don't get their own U.N. seat. If they are going to have a fiscal and monetary union, if they are going to become the new "United States of Europe" then they should have only the same representation in international organizations.
This EU Treasury will never happen. Too many countries are doing just fine by having their own Treasury - think Germany. Many countries have their own currency and happy about it. They control their monetary and fiscal policy, and in these difficult times, it is what keeps them above others. Think Poland.
The Brits just cannot wait to surrender their fiscal and monetary policy to EU - right?
And the US should pass in their veto power status, as the one veto voice rarely represents US public opinion, not to speak of state interests. Ever thought of global political issues not directly tied to fiscal policy of treasury, possibly involving aspects such as cultural diversity. Anyway, I don't get the relevant implication of your point anyway. The U.N. as most other international organizations either have quota systems or have no tradition of close majority votes. For instance, what would a unified, sole European vote for the consitution of a Palestinanian state change compared to 17 votes, if the sole, but veto-power US vote says no.
I guess from a US point of view, it is more than illegitimate to critisize the weight of votes at the UN, especially given the history of veto votes against the vast majority of world population and even against the majority of the US public.
In fact, the right to vote at the UN only means the right to articulate, which may be of some value given different cultures, consitutions, religious backgrounds etc. Ever seen a motion driven by a smaller EU country without European backing or the number of European vote counts changing a recent UN decision? I have not.
When it comes to US voting power, I would possibly reconsider the UN veto power as well as the Worldbank stake and IMF quota, as opposed to those of BRICs. I guess the US is very privileged in terms of power in almost any world organization.
The Fed will back everything up through the IMF. How else can the Fed weaken the dollar without QE3. This is the way to do it.
FreundeN bail out lesbos friends
EU ministers support €100 billion ($139 billion dollars) bank recapitalization
As the sh... eer honour mathematical food deaf Aztec Culture - Crystalinks wolfitup
This is like the floods creeping up on Bangkok.
Slowly but surely everyone knows what is coming.
think positive lol
The best thing that could happen is that these Ewoks do NOTHING. For ANYTHING they can do will just cost us taxpayers more money.
Bring it on.
floods creeping up on Bangkok ipconfig/flushdns
"paving draufzukleben"?
"We've had enough of short-term measures, enough of trying to plaster over the wreckage"
The sad issue with the Euro problems is that the dollar defies gravity and actually becomes stronger.....it's a miracle!
I thought that as well but knew at some point shit would hit the fan and it does look like that is what is happening. Made a bet with my former boss that USDCAD would be more amenable within three months - I'm going to win!
SP500 weekly chart shows megaphone wedge and looks bullish.
Market consensus became clearer on Friday so back to the original bullish analysis and SP500 weekly chart reverts to bullish/neutral.
So equity sell off been delayed once again and additonal upside ahead.
The larger megaphone enclosed by green lines reveals an unstable market and is bearish. It may result in a giant
head and shoulders forming once possible right hand shoulder is completed.
Long term monthly chart remains bearish.
http://stockmarket618.wordpress.com
Arrr ... what can I say -love it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgH_eq8G1ko
Despair? No fucking shit man! Massive understatement du jour! This motherfucker is more at GLOBAL CRASH!
No worries a solution is in the works.
It is pure genius.
The latest plan for boosting the firepower of the bailout fund was to set up a special-purpose vehicle which could draw in commitments from private investors and sovereign-wealth funds. That was said to be one of two final options that French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel were set to discuss in a meeting late Saturday.
This smells like Geithner PPIP 2.0.
One option would be to create a special-purpose vehicle uniquely devoted to insuring investors against losses. The idea would be to draw in private investors and others, like sovereign-wealth funds, to create a "bazooka" fund, the person said.
One advantage of this approach is that the fund would have a single, clear goal, as opposed to the EFSF, which is also supposed to provide money for bailouts and for recapitalizing troubled banks, the person said. The aim would be to draw together enough commitments from the private sector and other sources that the vehicle would have enough firepower to lift demand for the bonds issued by euro-zone governments.
I can just imagine the number of SWF (is the Federal Reserve and /or the IMF now a SWF) lining up to get in on a leveraged SPV to buy bonds issued by the Euro Zone.
This is going to work so well nextThursday morning.
Hopalong Cassidy-Oligarch ropes in his friends from the Blackfoot tribes of Oil bonanza land...whoopee, the ponzi is saved, momentarily. Sarkozy's Libya play now makes short term sense...One local oligarch less who was his own Stalinist man; not part of integrated oligarchy. Its also has hidden message for all those other Oligarchs who are recalcitrant like IRan...
Trying to buy at least another three months.
Some day very soon, Merkel is simply going to walk out of the room. Bet the meeting next week gets cancelled. Greece will be kicked out of the Euro - which is what the people want anyway - and the others will take much less time to follow suit. When the contagion hits the USA, it's going to unfold so fast most won't understand until it's well underway, certainly too late to act. The USD will tank when everybody expects it to rise, unemployment will soar, benefits and pensions will be wiped out, and then the hordes of disillusioned sheeple will take to the streets. Never mind 'Occupy Wall Street', it's going to be 'Occupy the Grocery Store.'
Shitty continent. Has no resources, languages that are of no importance, dying economies, let em burn. Theyve exploited nations, colonized and enslaved others for their gain over the centuries, its time europe gets theirs.......let them choke on their debt.....
Fuck off yank.
Theyve exploited nations, colonized and enslaved others for their gain over the centuries, its time europe gets theirs
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
And it should be US time too by the same criteria.
quixotic certainly not...just a plain vanilla nailed to your narrow minded left/right dogma agenda..ows are fighting the socialist/fascist(take your pick) 1% of lying bastard thieves who have destroyed our economy. the 1% and lying bastard thieves terninology understood by all... carry on rantin quixotic but no one is interested in your historically irrelevent labeling structures . a lying bastard thief is exactly that..right / left socialist or fascist this your ancient tribalism you are using as you quite singularly fail to muddy the waters and help us crystalise the reality...
grow up
The 99% are MORE responsible than the 1%, because they kept VOTING for looting the planet and the ultimate destruction of the USofA!
Looking for a MARXIST movement (i.e. OWS) to fix this mess is akin to looking for an onocologist to repair 50+ years of damage caused by smoking Marlboro Red that has metastasized into Stage 4 Lung Cancer...
REALITY is a bitch when you having been paying attention!
NOTHING will be solved until ADULTS show up to the discussion...
You have until Nov. 2012 to stop mankind from plunging into the next dark age, good luck asshat!
most ows supporters want good unfettered healthy free markets.. we domt want a referee that spoils the game ..just one that does not give the winnings to the same one percent over and over again regardless...and a huge thanks for confirming your ancient tribalistic misunderstandings LOL
You're welcome...
Nothing would please me more, than to be proven wrong about the OWS Free Shit Army solution = BIGGER Tolitarian Socialist .GOV
But, sorry to report:
A> OWS rank & file are about as dumb as a box of rocks
B> OWS Founders/Elite are confirmed Marxist Anti-American scumbags
C> OWS will cum in their pants the second that Obummer shows up to reconcile their dysfunctional socialist relationship (which is actually just a con game)
Another New Yorker's take on the OWS scam:
If they are so dumb, why are you so obsessed with them. Couldn't get laid when you went there?
I got laid at Woodstock but can't remember it. Wicked strain of Crotch Crickets but great acid. Good times, good times.......
I don't see either party offering a viable candidate. The 2 party system is a fail, and yes the voter has been reduced to trying to decide which is least worse choice. Until this is broken and term limits and no more insider trading for members of congress is enacted, doesn't really matter who gets elected....congress is the key. Both parties need to be kicked out.
Please don't say Ron Paul...though I love the guys ideas, they would never get enacted and the Repub party (that he is a part of) will never let him get the candidacy.
OWS doesn't know why things are screwed up, just that they are. hey blame capitalism because that is the system that is claimed to be in place....free market captalism hasn't existed in this country in a long time.
I'll be surprised if the US is in 1 piece come Jan 2013.
The democratic system is not failing. Nor is capitalism. I believe it is an educational system that has taught that failure is ok. Everyone gets a trophy. There are no winners or losers. We all win. Does this sound familiar with regards to the current economic mess and bond holder bailouts? No one can take a loss and we must all share in the sacrifice. What the hell kind of system like that is sustainable?
These bank bailouts were the easy way forward and more than likely they should have just been broken apart and let go. Bank bonuses after this type of failure is and always will be disgusting but legal. The banks leadership should have known better. The problem though was that these bank leaders were allowed to stay and were not thrown out at these banks. You f up and I'm sorry but your reward is the unemployment line, no bonuses, and no golden parachutes.
Do you think these bank heads were unemployed now we would have an OWS movement?
Making education responsible for ethical behavior will be tough. Real-life incentives and penaties for action very quickly recondition lessons learned in school.
It will all be about the effects of incentive structures on individually behavioral and collectively social regulation and on the fair and equal enforcement of law. IMHO the core issue having corrupted the system is the realization that 'smart, educated fraud with the proper institutional backing is not penalized by justice (aka collective interest) but incentivized by capital (private interest).
The more ESFS/IMF lending that occurs, the more likely a 100% haircut of private sectors bonds is needed. That in turn increases bank recapitalizations. Porugal is right around the corner guys.
Don't worry about bailing out Spain and Italy. You won't make it till then.
Game theory states that the best move is for UK, Germany and Nords to pull out, accept disorderly default and open the spigots to their own banks - leaving France for dead.
Also, who said Euro needs to go away simply because Greece 0s it's debt out? They dont need to devalue. 0 debt makes them highly competitive I'n Bizzaro world. I'll lend a debt free Greece $ for 5 years at the same rate I'll lend to the US at (both being at least 2x current US levels)
A single currency for an economy as strong as Germany on one hand and relatively weaker economies like Greece or Ireland on the other is not sustainable in the long run. The idea of the stronger countries in the Euro zone to keep on bailing out the weaker ones repeatedly will be a difficult one to sell to the citizens of the economically stronger countries. Their is no practical way to save the Euro, the only thing that the politicians can do is to lavishly spend tax payers money towards bailouts which creates a much bigger crises a few months down the line but does not solve anything.
Countries around the world are taking on more debt without any fruitful attempts to curb their expenditures. This has resulted in a much more fragile and artificially held up financial system which is on a much shaky ground than it was in 2008. In 2008 companies failed due to excessive leverage and debt and now countries are likely to default because they took on the same bad debt on themselves. The borrowing costs or bond yields for these countries are again at record highs for the year due to their deteriorating financial condition.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article24581.html
Different day, same shit. US States vary a lot in terms of productivity and wealth and still somehow those are all in the DOLLAR ZONE. Americans just like to apply completely different set of financial standards to EU and to the eurozone. Standards that themselves could not even pass.
Many divergent economic conditions in the US. Just cheap propaganda to lie the issue in that.
US just doesnt want European US citizens to deploy the full potential of US citizenism in Europe.
Typical gang behaviour, it is all cool when we do it, it is all bad when they do it.
The US is not the solution, the US is the problem.
yep, the same assclowns that KNOW they and their gvt can't manage anything here , KNOW that they and their gvt are "better" for the world.
Talk about a "liberal" bunch of cowboy junkies.
A doped out circus long past it's use by date.
Reading ZH for a some time it does seem quite clear that the EU and the Euro as currently defined cannot continue. There are really only two choices.
1) they create a United States of Europe that has tax collection powers and can give (as opposed to loan) individual states central funds in order to balance out economic disbalances. You know like we have been doing in the US since the Civil War.
Or
2) abolish the euro so the individual states can devalue their own currencies whenever current account imbalances arise that threaten local economies.
Given progress over the last 100 years it seems almost inevitible that 1) will be the outcome. This means fiat currency is the future and gold standard currencies are a simple fantasy that will never happen.
The United States of Europe is a nonstarter without the force, trauma, and bloodshed of a Civil War. Look at Greece, immobilized and in a terminal downward spiral. People will refuse to be assimilated into such a scheme without brute force being applied. And I don't think the force or the will to do such a thing is even close to being present.
No.
Many incentives for it to happen.
US citizens are funny with their manner of coming with the same old propaganda, wishing for it to succeed to bamboozle on the nth time.
No opposition in US citizenism. It is all about who leads and who takes the pain. There is no disagreement on where to go and what pain to inflict.
US citizenism leads to a one track future. No opposition. No diversity. US citizens hate on diversity and have been reducing it as much as they could from US start to rejoin into conformity.
What a bunch of fukups
This is classic culture clash! The undeniable reason the eurozone is doomed to failure! The French will shout and scream in your face and say things the germans and english would never dream of .. the germans will dig their heels in and finally act without warning and with clinical finality, the english will look on with an air of detatchment taking the moral high ground and waiting for the opportunity to take sides. Ive seen this opera played out a hundred times in a big multinational company.
As long as Englanders will get screwed I am all for it :) Fucking sanctimonious little pricks, sniping there from the...well, from the island. I hope Scots will see the light and divorce from them.
This is classic culture clash! The undeniable reason the eurozone is doomed to failure!
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Woooo...
US citizens' capacity to deny the most obvious fact and their wish for people to deny with them will never cease to amaze me, I suppose.
A classic culture clash? At best, one could interject that the various cultures are mediated by US citizenism.
So here is a report of two French US citizens clashing between each other and the US conclusion is that it is culture clash, even though, I suspect, as an easy US cheap propaganda exit, that it is french culture to clash one with another. Kicking the can is popular among US citizens.
But what? What we have here is a display of US citizenism, which is the only 'culture' that matters here.
In US citizenism, actions and reactions are situational. US citizens dont disagree with tyranny, they disagree with being tyrannized. And so on...
Swap any of these US citizens involved in this European state of affairs and you will be get the same act, not matter the culture they are. Because by swapping, you wont have changed the situation of each of them. Same situations, same reactions by US citizens.
Swap those two french US citizens, put one as the IMF head, the other as the French money person and same show.
It is all about situations with US citizens. It has little to do with cultures, most to do with US citizenism.
Go ahead and have another drink but please stop using made up words. "Citizenism" is not clever. It is doltish...
Clearly but at least it is much less ambigous than the US citizen version, Americanism (which is dolty too)
US Americanism? No. Because it would suggest there is other type of Americanism when it has not.
How many country on Americas have chosen to include the name of the continents as they were their own? Mexico, Argentine, Canada, Panama etc...
USA... You have to learn to work with what you have. Shitty base ingredients usually conclude in shitty food.
BRITISH BANKS COMPLETELY INSOLVENT TOO BY THE WAY...
Most if not all of them are insolvent.
The intent of US economics is to consume more and more, to consume much more than you can ever repay.
US citizens have been successful at that.
Insolvent ?@heist
Stop masturbating to this, the telegraph is bs. These kind of arguments happen during meetings.
Lets step back from this crazy meli-melo, the vampire's ball of Euroland, and ask ourselves a basic question about the state of the world economy :
1° Over the last thirty years we have seen the transfer of inordinate fiat denominated wealth and related power to the private sector oligarchs by the state sector politicians through deregulative legislation; these very political groups in all nation states now openly their surrogates. The 0.1% own the 1% who own the elected leaders of the 99%. Its now an established fact world wide.
2° The nation states are now organised like surrogate support groups of the Oligarchy. The banking sector of this world wide transnational corporate structure alone represents 30 % of world wide fiat wealth. Those who have destroyed all the real wealth control 30% of its nominal value, which is burning in front of their very eyes. They also control the five pillars of the governance sectors in their collecitve vice : the elected elite, the judiciary, the municipal/federal police, the money line (FED/PDS), and MSM. As it is very clear the elected elites are paid to further their corporate interests in strategic areas : Middle East (MIC/OIL/BANk Lobbies), Africa : RM, Food, docile population, Chindia : labour factory.
3° This Oligarchical nebulous has now lost its money line as its fiat hegemony has been shown to be a self exploding debt generating ponzi. They have lost the vital BLOOD stream of their power heritage through its debt debasement. Due to their own hubristic greed. WHere they have added debt to debt, thinking they could squeeze the very guts out of the people by ramping up their own financial profits all the while socializing debt mountains. Its now unmanageable, the ponzi, as both the Euro construct and the even greater incommensurable derivative pile up in US banks shows.
4° It will not admit to this paper tiger collapse as it spells it own demise. It will fight tooth and nail even to the extent of creating wars. It will add fiat ponzi to fiat ponzi, it will burn one fiat and replace it by new fiat. The troika is there for that.
5° Whatever the outcome, it means no growth for the first world and extreme duress for th 99%. We are entering a feudal, ruthless age, where the rule of law will be a farcical, tragic pantomime of oligarchs trampling over the people's rights.
What can the people do? Go back to first principles of the nation state and its architecture, all the while resisting adventurous military play organised via banktrupt nation state by self interested bureaucracies. Relect a new state power structure. Clean out the Augean stables of corrupt government. Then be the Edmond Dantes of this world to wreak havoc on those who have created and benefitted from this ponzi. The People never die, the Oligarchs do, in their own blood.
OT : NZ 8 FR 7 ... the blacks win at home by one point. Well done.
Fabled past.
Over the last thirty years we have seen the transfer of inordinate fiat denominated wealth and related power to the private sector oligarchs by the state sector politicians through deregulative legislation;
The transfer of wealth has been occurring for far longer.
So what? Some US citizens want to oppose it now they are no longer recipients of it.
The US robbed an entire continent. Did not bother their ancestors in those times. Now they are nobody left to rob but some US citizens, it should stop?
On what ground?
Go back to first principles etc... No. The US has not changed one bit.
We are not facing a situation of change but a situation the status quo appears less and less sustainable.
You don't get it, do you? One track mind.
What is specific about the last thirty years is that this same capitalist mind-set has gone GLOBAL and its SEEMLESS, at least on the financial ponzi side, if not on the political front. Too many oligarchs on the same financial page in incestuous copulation but now at loggerheads as nobody wants to pay the bill for their exorbitant bunga binge.
If the status quo is untenable then we are facing an EXPLOSIVE situation change. Power never lives in a vacuum. If this melt-down continues on global scale, worsens, as it probably will, either they use force or they will be chased out by the people.
So instead of restating the same thing like a broken record look ahead and try and understand the future. You never contribute by projecting ahead always by singing the same sad song.
No. There is no specifics in financials.
Growth as envisioned by US economics is a Ponzi scheme, be it industrial, farming, financials etc...
Nobody can pay the bills for the lack of growth rate at present times, that is the main issue.
Explosive situation change? How? US citizens are used to pouring their internal issues on the exterior. A new wave of colonization is happening, that will diminish seriously the risks of explosive situation changes, at least in the West.
Prediction of the future is betterly done when based on actual past events rather than fantasy.
"Its a damn disaster." (and it still is).
- BAC CEO 10/6/2008
No matter what the market price is gonna do in the coming weeks, time is on the side of those who are short in my opinion.
Owwweeee!
I'll let me 95 y/o 4'7" mum know that!
"Capitalism will commit suicide". --Karl Marx
Things are f'ed up because of social security, medicare, medicaid, and on and on. All socialist programs Karl.
“Today one shouldn’t expect decisions,” Merkel told reporters before the Brussels summit. http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-23/eu-pushes-to-solve-debt-woes...
How long before B od A starts disgorging cash on CDS bets?
Don't worry, it's all backed by the american taxpayer. Chumps.
Ding, we have a winner. Yes, all things happening are being coordinated by the Fed and the ECB. Everything said and everything being done is smoke and mirrors to allow them to buy gold. There is no other plan. There can be no other plan. The only alternative that I can think of is there is no plan at all, and that would be unacceptable to TPTB.
er ... I believe it is Schadenfreude.
If you wanted to ask what it is in English, it is a concise way of saying "taking pleasure in someone else's misfortunes. I can assure you that the 54+% of Germans who oppose this farce take no pleasure in the misfortune of greek hairdressers who will have to work a few more years past 50 and that public sector workers might have to take a paycut so that their wages are something less than the 3X private sector wages. In fact, Greek public sectors are paid more than their German counterparts, which should give all of Germany reason for pause on what it is trying to accomplish by holding the Euro together.
Time split from Europe, the Middle East and most other countries.
This will be just in time:
www.SouthGaRealEstateReport.com"The European leaders are not much different than any other group of politicians. Would you go to a lawyer to have brain surgery? Yet we elect people with NO qualifications in the world financial markets and expect them to figure out what to do. We must be just insane. Would you let your 5 year old file your income tax? The most important aspect is the economy. Screw that up and you get war, depression, and starvation. We then elect a whole bunch of people to posts and automatically assume these people have the (1) real intelligence ABOVE average to comprehend such complex subjects, and (2) they understand the right thing to do. Where did we ever get these ideas? Most of the staff members employed by politicians are smarter than the people they work for. But unless they believe an economic crisis is possible, they will not even look at the issue." - Martin Armstrong
They just don;t have the minds like the US looters, I meant Congress and SEC to solve this issue. Send Timmy over there , a one way ticket to make things better.
PS; Long on Top Ramen
You mean in the US, right?
Osborne's hardly in a position to speak - the UK spending continues to increase on a year by year basis for the same reason the US's - by not spending as much as they originally said that constitutes, in their books, spending CUTS, even though the TOTAL spending is going UP.
DavidC
The shear volume of stupidity found here.. makes me think that we as a people are doomed to serve the masters goin forward for a good long while, still.
I have always considered you the resident expert on stupidity!
very grim - we could not agree on a 5 star restaurant
Some people don't like escargot. Some don't like weiner schnitzel.
Maybe they'll decide on Weiner Schnitzel vom Schwein (from piigs).
Some Dunkin' Donuts and fresh coffee will have everyone perked up and ready to go in no time. All these fellas have to do is what I do, spend my paycheck paying the bills and set a little aside for a rainy day. How complicated is that?
Greece will be bailed out again or again, otherwise the fiat system immediately collapses.
The US is Greece X 100. Anyone concerned with the current correction in gold or silver needs to take into consideration what the US reponse will be. The only solution besides outright default is massive additional QE. Combine that with the gold and silver cartel manipulation potentially ending Jan 1st 2012, and the prospects for gold and especially silver have never been more bullish.
There's a shit cloud coming. Run for your lives!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaYUqXAmXRQ
You want reality?
This Week’s Reports: 3Q Real GDP Expected to Grow at +2.5%! (Or Is It Down -5.5%?), Case-Shiller Up +0.2%! (Or Is It Down -0.8%?)http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/
'Ode to Joy' should be replaced with The Doors 'This is the End'.
The Germans should take care of French concerns with the Schliffen Plan. Third times the charm..