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European Stress Reemerges As Risk Off Epicenter Following Portugal Admission It Needs €30 Billion Bailout

Tyler Durden's picture


Even as the Euro-Dollar 3 Month basis swap has contracted to a nearly 6 month low at -75 bps, on residual hopes that the LTRO will do anything to fix Europe (it won't - just compare it to the €442 billion 1 year LTRO from June 2009 which worked until it didn't for the simple reason that Europe does does not have a liquidity problem), Europe has once again reemerged as a source of risk off (not least of all because the fulcrum security benefiting from the LTRO - the Italian 2 year BTP is for the first time in weeks wider by 17 bps). Why? The same reason as always: Greece, with a touch of Portugal. As BBG observes the positive sentiment in Asia earlier was retraced in the European session, with commodities, FX, equities lower, especially after ECB demurred from accepting losses on its Greek bond holdings. What that means is that as we patiently explained over the weekend, the imminent Greek default (just listen to Soros over in Davos spewing fire and brimstone on Europe for allowing the situation to get to a place where a Greek default is inevitable) will create so many subordinated junior tranches of Greek debt it will make one's head spin. But while the fate of Greece is all but sealed, and a CDS triggered virtually factored in (note: a Greek CDS trigger, in isolation, won't have much of an impact as repeated here before - in fact it will return some normalcy to the market as CDS will be a hedging vehicle once again over ISDA's corrupt trampled corpse), it is what happens to Portugal and its bonds that has the market gasping for air. Because as Zero Hedge pointed out first, a Greek default will be impossible to be enacted in Portugal in its currently envisioned format, as stupid as it may be. In fact, due to the pervasive and broad negative pledges in most medium-term Portuguese bonds, any priming Troika bailout is impossible without providing matching collateral for everyone else under UK indenture bonds!

This is critical because so far Portuguese PM Pedro Coehlo has been saying that no additional bailout capital will be needed, as the party line demands. Unfortunately, the reason why Portuguese bonds have just blown up once again today is that someone has let the truth slip and the horse is now out of the barn.

As Reuters reports, according to Antonio Saraiva, the head of the country's industry confederation, Portugal needs more bailout funds. €30 billion should do it. Great. However that means that all of the existing bonds have to get the same liens and security protections as any new IMF loan. Translation: Portugal better prepare to see itself stripped of all assets. Yet another translation: prepre to see Portuguese bonds explode as the market slowly realizes that the Greek model does not work here.

Reuters has the smoking gun:

Antonio Saraiva, the leader of the influential lobby group with vast collective bargaining powers, told Reuters the 78-billion-euro bailout that runs through 2013 did not take into account massive debts by inefficient, loss-making public companies, especially in the transport sector.


Due to Portugal's debt crisis, foreign banks have stopped refinancing those debts and Portuguese banks had to step in, depriving the rest of the economy of loans needed for it to pull itself out of the worst recession in decades. The government insists no bailout renegotiation is needed, although it added it could receive more support if external tensions kept it locked out of funding markets.


"I'll dare to say we have a credit crunch... What is lacking is 30 billion euros," said Saraiva, who has been involved in consultations with Portugal's international lenders on the progress of the bailout program.


"I think we will need a mix of more funds and longer terms to be negotiated with the troika" of lenders from the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund.

Saraiva's estimate adds to a warning earlier by a former government official who negotiated the country's bailout, Carlos Pina, that Portugal may need a further 20-25 billion euros in rescue funds to finance public companies.But Saraiva said Portugal would only be able to ask for more money and time after showing more effort in meeting the fiscal goals set out in the bailout to garner more credibility.


"The troika already has a much more detailed vision of Portugal than it had when the pact was signed in May. Through this vision and through the credibility we achieve by adjusting our course, the troika will be more prone to conceding this."


"Maybe before the end of this year we could manage ... to increase the sum of the assistance to at least 100 billion euros, and extend the time terms," he said, explaining that his group told the lenders last year the country needed as much as 106 billion euros in financial assistance.


He said the troika's initial evaluation of Portugal's needs was incorrect.


"When we were first consulted by the troika we defended that the state has to have conditions to reduce the debt burden of the broad public enterprise sector, allowing and obliging banks to provide this sum of 30 billion euros to the economy."


The government says no bailout renegotiation is needed as it remains focused on meeting budget deficit targets and implementing structural reforms.


"I can reaffirm that Portugal will not ask for a renegotiation of its bailout, we will neither ask for more money nor for more time," Prime Minister Pedro Passos Coelho said on Tuesday, vowing that the bailout will not fail due to internal reasons.


But he also said Europe and the IMF were ready to help Portugal if, for external reasons, it would be unable to return to debt markets as planned in the second half of next year. Saraiva said whatever the outcome of Greece's debt crisis, the European Union was unlikely to allow the disintegration of the euro zone, and Portugal would definitely stick to the euro.


Last week, the government, unions, Saraiva's confederation and other employers' associations signed an agreement on labour market reforms, designed to make hiring and firing workers easier to help struggling companies.Saraiva hailed the agreement as an important step in the right direction, but said it only "removes one part of one obstacle" for companies, while many problems such as an excessive tax burden or inefficient justice system remained.

In other words: Portugal does need more money, but under its current capital structure, there just is no place where said new money can come in cleanly and efficiently, while diluting everyone else.



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Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:52 | 2095829 KlausK
KlausK's picture

Billions, get your billions here! Billions, get them while they are still hot from the press!

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:14 | 2095850 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



No.....we definitely are not going to do QE. Put it out of your mind.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:24 | 2095896 westerman
westerman's picture

There will never ever be QE again. We will se things that look like QE, are supposed to do the same things as QE but they will never be called QE by anyone except conspiricy theorists and wackos on the internet.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:30 | 2095914 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture


There will never ever be QE again. We will see things that look like QE.


Well...those tricky bastages.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:55 | 2095987 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Exactly, Greece will default, the question is what precedent is going to be set for Portugal, who is next in line.  Fiat is going to continue t be given out, in stealth, to all these entities.  QE and direct monetization has never stopped, but the precedent set by Greece is extremely important, especially if TPTB can manage the perception that Greece indeed default, no CDS event was triggered, and now all is well with the Euro.

Nothing will change, and I mean NOTHING so long as the perception can be managed and certain critical supply lines can be maintained.  Same as it ever was.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 12:10 | 2096374 whatsinaname
whatsinaname's picture

Pardon me but I have been so trying keep my eyes closed to this Eurocrap (and there is so much of it) but what is this thing about UK indentured bonds ? How did the UK get involved into the Greek mess ? It seems the epicenter of all financial messes start with the UK ....

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:53 | 2095834 westboundnup
westboundnup's picture

Attended an economic conference yesterday, where the speaker noted that Portugal could be bailed out, Spain was on the cusp of too big to bail out and Italy was leveraged to the max and certainly too big to bail out.  Banks in the core EU hold the periphery debt, and have started to stop lending to one another.  So how are they planning to muddle through again?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:54 | 2095835 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

And just yday the eurostooges in Portugal said they don't need any more money from european tax payers. LOL! And btw, today is the day when Ireland pays Zombie-Anglo unsecured, unguaranteed bonds fully with money they don't have. How much? Well, take a look from the link above.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:05 | 2095862 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'from the link above.'

That link was below Dick, not above, so I was confused, then I saw € 1.2 billion: more confused...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:24 | 2095897 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

My humble apologies for all the confusion, Gene. =)

The sum seems very negligible as such but when you put it in context, well, not so much. From the text:

€1,250m equal to all the new tax to be raised in Ireland in 2012 as a result of Budget 2012. More than the €800m the entire economy is expected to grow in 2012 according to the most recent IMF forecast. 0.8% of our GDP or 1% of our GNP.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 12:12 | 2096383 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

This should be fun!

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:09 | 2095869 Irish66
Irish66's picture

Thanks Dick, I forgot that was today.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:55 | 2095836 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Wow....some country in Euroland needs a bailout? There's a F'ing shock.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:55 | 2095837 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Time for QE3.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:57 | 2095843 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



It's either that or someone better pull some serious coin out their wazoo.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:55 | 2095838 Irish66
Irish66's picture

One for all, all for one.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 08:57 | 2095845 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



I'm pretty sure all are screwed.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:04 | 2095857 GoodMorningMr.V...
GoodMorningMr.VanRumpoy...'s picture

Not to thread jack but, War with Iran will soon  commence.  Iran just inked  an agreement to sell it's oil for gold to India. With China to follow suit.

As Gaddafi's Ghost will tell you, everything's fine in the big time until you threaten the western International monetary system, which is the (now) semi hegemony of the Paper dollar.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:05 | 2095863 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

The next one to link to Debka's constant bullshit and unsourced hype gets banned.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:22 | 2095893 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

India: Business With Iran Will Continue - Official

India will continue doing business with Iran and does not see a reason to seek a waiver from the United States that would protect buyers of Iranian oil from a new round of sanctions, an unnamed senior Indian Cabinet minister said Jan. 12, Reuters reported. The minister said government officials would visit Iran from Jan. 16 to Jan. 21 to find ways to pay for oil in light of the U.S. sanctions.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:28 | 2095908 battle axe
battle axe's picture

Tyler, I am sorry, as a new guy I do not know what "Debka" is?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:33 | 2095921 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture


I am sorry, as a new guy I do not know what "Debka" is?


She's a porn star......really no place for her on a financial website.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:43 | 2095951 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Israel/Mossad propaganda voice. 

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:00 | 2096004 battle axe
battle axe's picture

Ok, thanks...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:36 | 2096123 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Work for Debka? They have a long history. One article does not change who they are and what they do. Go back to AIPAC...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:57 | 2096162 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

No.  Ad hominem attacks?  Who do you work for? Some folks appear mighty anxious to discredit the story and one source out of many. 

Ad Hominem Argument: Also, "personal attack," "poisoning the well." The fallacy of attempting to refute an argument by attacking the opposition’s personal character or reputation, using a corrupted negative argument from ethos. E.g., "He's so evil that you can't believe anything he says." See also Guilt by Association. Also applies to cases where potential opposing arguments are brushed aside without comment or consideration, as simply not worth arguing about.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 17:02 | 2097555 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

One, I did not discredit the story. You can read for understanding?

Two, well aware of what an ad hominem attack is. I didn't use one. If you can't take the time to google DEBKA and see their history, then fuck off. As for guilt by association- zionist and mossad are the poster children. Go back to aipac...


July 20, 2010
However, according to the Debkafile . an Israeli political website believed to be linked to the Mossad .


Fri, 01/27/2012 - 07:35 | 2101533 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

Eric King and Eric Sprott.  They seem to believe the Iran gold for oil story.  They must be part of the grand conspiracy.  Still haven't seen an official denial or refutation by a credible source.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:29 | 2095909 HD
HD's picture

Tyler - some of your best comment section posts are where you call out some knuckle dragger on their ridiculous BS. Don't take that away from us...don't ban, just belittle.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:35 | 2095926 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I don't know Debka from a hill of beans, but after all the downright weird or factually wrong opinions on ZH, this seems like an unusual place to draw the line. the zero hedge manifesto

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:39 | 2095937 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Spreading patently flawed disinformation from a conflicted, discredited source using ZH as a medium, which gives it implicit credibility (which it does not deserve) to confuse people and force them to do things they otherwise would not is against the very core of our manifesto.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:00 | 2096005 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Agreed... But it's just fun to beat those a55wipes to a pulp when they do...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:02 | 2096008 HD
HD's picture

I had not considered your position. I long ago stopped questioning the credibility or integrity of ZH. It always impresses me to learn some critical information from ZH reporting - only to have it confirmed by the rest of financial news press days, weeks or month later.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:26 | 2096096 Element
Element's picture

The zh manifesto also says to not trust zh, as a source, or anything else for that matter, as the onus is on us to verify or falsify any info we read here, and to always presume an agenda is present.

Good advice.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:51 | 2096133 HD
HD's picture

I assure you, I don't mindless follow anyone or believe any source to infallible, incorruptible or beyond reproach. I believe my comments on the site (between the endless smart ass remarks I can't help but make) reflect this.

That said, I am consistently impressed with ZH - there's more due diligence here than anywhere else in the financial press at present. While I don't agree with everything (and certainly not everyone) - in my mind, Zero Hedge's track record allows the benefit of doubt...manifesto not withstanding.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:54 | 2096281 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

And TD is up front about it. Many other news sources aren't. I don't believe everything I read on ZH as well e.g. RM bashing Apple. But some of the articles here are phenomenal - the subordination article and the rehypothecation ones really stand out in my mind.

I think we all have to do the work and due diligence when it comes to anything we read, and it's good that TD says that and encourages it actively.

For example, we see that the BDI is dropping like a rock - the question is why? Some will tell you that it's because world trade is falling like a rock. Some will tell you it's because there's an oversupply of dry bulk carriers. You have to figure it out for yourself.

What I do like about ZH is that people will point out the FACT i.e. the BDI is dropping like a rock. Now it's up to you to figure out the why.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 04:04 | 2098982 Element
Element's picture

because world trade is falling like a rock. Some will tell you it's because there's an oversupply of dry bulk carriers.


Perhaps the fall off of trade creates the oversupply, and not just overbuilding?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:25 | 2096092 kito
kito's picture

spreading patently flawed disinformation from a conflicted, discredited source?????......shirley you must be referring to goldman sachs???????...whose sprayed venom is always highlighted here.................

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:55 | 2096160 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

With Goldman, their agenda is transparent, and as in the case of Stolper, among many others, has allowed readers to profit on countless occasions. With Debka, his only agenda is to generate page views by spreading sensational and flawed disinformation.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 14:40 | 2096977 kito
kito's picture

goldmans agenda is transparent? only those savvy and learned enough (thanks to you tyler) to know their only agenda is to make money regardless of truth or morality. goldman is undoubtedly highly conflicted and constantly spreading flawed disinformation about whats really going on in the markets. i fail to see much of a difference.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:24 | 2096225 HD
HD's picture

Don't call me Shirley.  

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 11:51 | 2096308 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Well, I can't find any links that show their information to be flawed or discredited in the first three pages of a google search. Bias, yes, but so is everything. Perhaps this Tyler would be so gracious as to share the information that shows the "patently flawed disinformation from a conflicted, discredited source."

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 07:18 | 2099054 XitSam
XitSam's picture

That's what I suspected.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:09 | 2095858 Element
Element's picture

This is bullish, right? ... credit crunch ... good for stocks, right?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:05 | 2095861 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Here is why I call BS. Just a few months ago EVERYONE was screaming that a Greek default would be Lehman X10. the reprecussions would be felt all over. Now a Greek default really would not do any harm at all......BUT A PORTUGAL DEFAULT!!!!! Heaven forbid! Just wait 2 months and a Portugal default will be no problem.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:07 | 2095866 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

The Greek default sets the stage for all future defaults, hence why it has far greater implications for the downstream dominos than anything Lehman-related. Just as a Portugal default then would have even more serious repercussions for Spain and Italy and so forth. This really should not be that complicated.

Perhaps it is time to bring back Captcha

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:13 | 2095878 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

+1 on the 'bring back Captcha' 

A sovereign default gets rid of the taboo no doubt.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:24 | 2095899 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture


The comments are just reflective of the overall bullish sentiment.  Nothing can go wrong or its all priced in etc.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:56 | 2095912 Element
Element's picture

Or go back one step further, and Dubai was the HOPETM archetype ...

Except when it came to Greece the ECB is both constrained politically and is losing cred fast, because it only has its contracts, and a captive taxpayer base, who may (i.e. will) abandon their listing cruise ship.

So the archetype is morphing, mutating ... no one knows what into.

At least the UAE had some assets.

"The love boat soon will be making another run ..." <[Credit] CRUNCH!>


EDIT:  wonder what happened to that nice Iceland archetype?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:17 | 2096068 LiquidityandLunacy
LiquidityandLunacy's picture

How about instead of bringing back Captcha, you devise a system where one must answer a seemingly simple question about the article should one have read it. That might filter out the noise and should be relatively easy to "password" each post.



Just a thought...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:18 | 2096072 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

No need to bring back the captcha, everyone understands that the other countries are gonna start saying "me too" when it comes time to refinance them as well -- on second thought, perhaps the captcha might be a good idea...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:12 | 2095873 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thank you for responding. By the way with all respect I was not calling BS on this site and I have no idea what a Depka is and have no need to find out and incur any wrath. Here is Jon Stewart last night on Mitt Romney. Funny stuff.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:36 | 2095927 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture



Jon Stewart is America's top news site.......sad but true.



Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:12 | 2095874 Al Capowned
Al Capowned's picture

Seriously how much longer can this carry on for,i understand the elite want to draw it out to siphen off all the real assets once they have loaded up Soverign countries with bailiouts they cant pay back, but how long before hyper inflation sets in?

How is CDS going to be a hedge against default when they are products of compeletely insolvent soon to be chapter 11 banks? I guess CDS payouts will mean that more money has to printed by Central banks to bail out the banks for CDS payments that have to be made! not everyone can be infinitely hedged against risk! Although that appears to be the goal!


Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:16 | 2095881 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture


Seriously how much longer can this carry on for


It appears we are about to find out.


Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:25 | 2095901 battle axe
battle axe's picture

It depends if the CDS are tripped, and that will never happen. 

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:22 | 2095892 youngman
youngman's picture

Pretty quiet on the Western front though..its all Apple and THE SPEECH FROM THE ONE....and Davos is is is if I was a bond buyer..the so called safe haven trade..and I was watching this..Greece..Portugal..Italy...Spain...and looked at their economies to see if they can GROW out of their problems....they can´t....why would I be buying all the new bonds...they are not...its the Central this is the new GAME....can it be played and played well....I don´t think so....because we as investors might be stupid but we are not dumb...we will change our way...countries will change thier ways...India and gold for payments..not Euros...not Dollars....and I think others will fall suit....why would you want to hold dollars and Euros when you see they are printing and you are being diluted on a daily basis...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:30 | 2095911 Al Capowned
Al Capowned's picture

Gold / silver look to be down on Option Expiry as usual, although not complaining pay day is coming up, From my understanding apparently Naked silver shorts are rampant right now to try and keep price down and prevent default at the comex.

I cant wait for this when the tide goes out when the Comex defaults, the paper manipulation will be stark Bollock naked just standing there for all too see!!

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:15 | 2096056 bbq on whitehou...
bbq on whitehouse lawn's picture

India will likely use yen not gold in buying oil from Iran. Iran on the other hand may use Yen to buy gold for internal use as their currency falls. Useing Yen may also help Japan sell some bonds.

Now if Yen becomes the Asian goto currency instead of the Dollar then there you go. Reuters seems to have edited the story now.

Its seems the Iran is also going to raise intrest rates to 21% as a means of controling gold. We will see.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:25 | 2095902 BlackVoid
BlackVoid's picture

What do I have to learn to understand posts like this? Where to start?

ZH is a great, but my knowledge is lacking.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:31 | 2095916 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Alright whoever junked me you were right to do it. With all respect to "This really should not be that complicated. " you are simply incorrect.

I won't lie, I come to this site because I look for the truth. Like probably most people here I take that information and I try to learn from it.  If the world is going to crap I am trying to get to the bottom of the USS Poseidon and make it out alive. So when I read from several different sources that a Greek default would terminally cripple the European financial institutions and wreak havoc on US financials by extension I have to take notice. Then several months later when European Banks seem to have been firewalled and US Banks are just flat out rallying all the while Greece IS defaulting as forecasted it makes you confused. Thats all I am sayin.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:37 | 2095930 HD
HD's picture

"With all respect to "This really should not be that complicated. " you are simply incorrect."

Uh, chief - that's Tyler. The source of all the truth on this site...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:04 | 2096025 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture


Truth is subjective. It is not a holy grail found in the bowels of zerohedge or any other site. There are just as many untruths, conjecture, wild guesses and propaganda at ZH. They all require we sift through the crap to find a few nuggets. 

As you use this site to build upon your knowledge of shadow banking, liquidity vs solvency, CDS impossibilities, CB manipulation and coordination, the EFS and every other manifestation of the Elite structure, please remember this: they have been doing the same things for centuries. They have knowledge and power that we can hardly fathom, much less effect. Their ability to massage the masses for all they can get is almost infinite and if it is ever allowed to fall apart- IT WILL BE ON THEIR TERMS.

That being said, your quest need not be Quixote's. However, it will help if you develop more patience. There is much to do, more crisises to create and more social engineering to be accomplished. This will happen on a timetable that creates the best outcome for the Elites. 

With Tavistock and the Aspen Institute, they have spent 100 years figuring out how we tick and what we will accept and when. They have modified us through food, education, drugs and entertainment to produce the results we see today.

This site may help you save yourself from the worst of it, maybe a few friends that are smart enough to listen, or may all be for naught. Then again, you might answer the door and find the publisher's clearinghouse at your door. Life is like a box of chocolates...

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:18 | 2096070 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Very well said.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:05 | 2096028 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

So when I read from several different sources that a Greek default would terminally cripple the European financial institutions and wreak havoc on US financials by extension I have to take notice. Then several months later when European Banks seem to have been firewalled and US Banks are just flat out rallying all the while Greece IS defaulting as forecasted it makes you confused.

That's because you believed it when the ventriliquist points his gun at the dummys head and yells to the crowd... "STOP, or the dummy gets it"...


Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:12 | 2096053 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I believe my eyes when my positions make or lose money. Until the day comes when the tables are turned I still gotta pay my bills.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:08 | 2096034 Element
Element's picture

Then several months later when European Banks seem to have been firewalled and US Banks are just flat out rallying all the while Greece IS defaulting as forecasted it makes you confused.

It's called a rigged and manipulated market, something Tyler and Co have extablished beyond reasonable doubt here at zh, with a mountain of evidence. 

I'd take the hint.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:15 | 2096064 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Rigged and manipulated...thanks yeah I got the hint. I have a weird feeling despite that Tyler(s) have a brokerage account and still invest somewhere other than complete physical bullion.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:36 | 2096105 Element
Element's picture

Whatever! ... who says he can't do anything he damn well wishes?   You can too, right?

Okay then, never trust Tyler, he's a very bad man.

Is that better now?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:44 | 2096138 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thanks for making my point for me.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:38 | 2095933 GaryNeville
GaryNeville's picture


I'm long - I thought it was all priced in!!!!


Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:41 | 2095944 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Thanks HD. Hopefully you get a cupcake after class today.

Do I say I doubt the information? No Can it be confusing? Yes. Does he have to alter it and spell it out in small words and use pictures for people like me? No. Can he poke fun at me because he is more intelligent and besides it's his site? Sure. Do I have thick skin? Yes. Can he handle someone disagreeing with him without needing people like you to kiss his ass constantly? Probably.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 16:10 | 2097380 HD
HD's picture

While I'm certainly not above some ass kissing, there is no need for it here. I have a genuine respect for the Tylers - ZH does not just regurgitate information from USA Today in hopes to drive enough traffic for Google ads. The analysis is thorough, thought provoking and unfiltered for the most part.

There is a learning curve on ZH, and very little hand holding - but you will get up to speed. I've yet to run into anyone on these boards that isn't humbled by the complexity of the markets. I learn new things here all the time - it's why I keep coming back.

Yes, the Tylers are blunt and don't suffer fools well - which cuts down on the BS.

Welcome to fight club. You will love it here.

By the way...the cupcake was delicious.


Thu, 01/26/2012 - 01:46 | 2098909 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

"I've yet to run into anyone on these boards that isn't humbled by the complexity of the markets."

Robo and MDB? :-)

No seriously - as I have said before I don't believe everything I see here. Some of the stuff is downright ridiculous and crazy. But it is a thought provoking website and is definitely much better than the ridiculous simplistic rubbish served up by CNBC or the rest of the MSM. 

"I learn new things here all the time - it's why I keep coming back" - agreed.

I like the detailed analysis you see here - for a person who likes to look at economic fundamentals it provokes deep thinking and gives you an alternate viewpoint.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 09:58 | 2095998 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

How cute referencing the law and rules to be followed as if these will stop anything.  What needs to happen will happen in order to continue this ponzi..  The commentary should be moving toward how the PTB will skirt, break or rewrite the rules to make these necessary adjustments happen.  In terms of protecting investors and informing the laymen the most likely route of lawbreaking is more informative and honest.  Start thinking in terms of no rule of law only force and which rules to break to maintain a semblance of normalcy in these markets and you will be ahead of much of this commentary.

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:03 | 2096020 clones2
clones2's picture

Slightly OT - Im guessing anyone with a large amount of bonds in Greece and Portugal also hedged with CDS...

Looks like their bonds will be slashed to 50% - 60% of their value and CDS will not be triggered...

Is this enough to critically damage any hedge funds who levered in this space?

Wed, 01/25/2012 - 10:31 | 2096107 Portugal
Portugal's picture

The solution to end the European crisis is simply to accuse the Rating Agencies, yes, the same ones that got us all into this mess, of " Tortious Interference" 

From Wikipedia

" Tortious interference, also known as intentional interference with contractual relations, in the common law of tort, occurs when a person intentionally damages the plaintiff's contractual or other business relationships. This tort is broadly divided into two categories, one specific to contractual relationships (irrespective of whether they involve business), and the other specific to business relationships or activities (irrespective of whether they involve a contract).


Typical examples

  1. Tortious interference of business.- When false claims and accusations are made against a business or an individual's reputation in order to drive business away.
  2. Tortious interference of contract.- When an individual uses "tort" (a wrongful act) to come in between two parties mutual contract.


Wed, 01/25/2012 - 12:09 | 2096365 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Meanwhile, the worthless, "elite" bastards that created this whole mess are seeking to make capitalism the fall guy, yet again.

The pix with the article are priceless. Even got a big ole smile out of Moynihan.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!