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Europe's Ponzi Takes A Twist For The Wacky: Greek Bank Equity To Be Used As Loan Collateral
That the European ponzi is leaps and bounds ahead of the US is well known: we have frequently succumbed to vertigo trying to chart just how interconnected Europe's financial system is at the current point where €1 in incremental capital is supposed to prop up a multi-trillion pyramid scheme. But the just released news from the Handeslblatt demonstrates that just when we thought we had seen it all, Europe once again manages to surprise us. As is by now well-known, Finland has proven to be quite a stick in the spokes of the joint-European can kicking exercise by, prudently, demanding collateral, or threatening to walk out of the second Greek bailout (that 1 year Greek bonds are trading at 60%+ yields is irrelevant). Well, here's the solution - give them collateral... in the form of insolvent Greek bank shares, which however will be "partially nationalized" as if that will suddenly push their value higher. Supposedly the Finns never clarified that the collateral has to have some liquidation "value." Oh well, better luck next time.
Dow Jones provides a brief summary of idiocy so profound we are terrified we have lost our minds and fail to see brilliance when it stares us in the face:
According to the report, European Financial Stability Facility head Klaus Regling has proposed the idea to European finance ministers, who will discuss the matter early next week. Regling's office didn't have an immediate comment on the report Tuesday.
Of the EUR109 billion expected to make up the euro zone's second rescue package for Greece, at least EUR20 billion is earmarked for Greek banks, according to Handelsblatt.
In return for getting the aid, Greek banks will be partially nationalized, the article quotes unnamed sources in Brussels as saying.
And straight from the horse's mouth:
The euro zone remains committed to the project to secure the new loan assistance for Greece with a mortgage. According to the Handelsblatt information is now thought to get Finland and other donor countries Greek bank shares as security deposit. It was Klaus Regling, head of euro bailout EFSF, the group suggested the euro finance ministers, said EU diplomats. Senior officials from the ministries of finance-€ would talk about it early next week.
The second aid package for Greece in the euro area comprises a total of 109 billion euros. Of these, at least 20 billion euros for the Greek banks determined. In return for the assistance of the Greek banks were partially nationalized, it said in Brussels. The state share packages should be left to the government in Athens the Euro-donor countries as a security deposit, according to the plan.
The Government of the Euro-zone was at the urging of Finland at its extraordinary meeting on 21 July, the security deposit resolved. Greece agreed then Finland, € 925 million in securities with high credit ratings to a Finnish account as collateral to apply. The euro-zone would then approve this agreement, however. This is not to the security deposit but from the table, it said in Brussels.
Finland continues to insist, so now another solution must be found. Otherwise, there is a danger that Finland is on the new loan package for Greece no longer participate. The government in Helsinki is under considerable pressure of the opposition party "The True Finns" who refuses all aid to Greece.
So let's see if we can make sense out of this:
Greek banks exist only due to the National Bank of Greece funding their operations by providing cash in exchange for Greek bonds as collateral; Greek bonds are trading at or around 50 cents on the dollar, which however results in nearly par cash; the NBG goes and pledges the same Treasuries to the ECB, in another collateralization operation. However, even that has failed to satisfy the full Greek bank system capital shortfall (remember that whole bank run and collapse in bank deposits?), and a €20 billion gap has opened up, which is where Bailout #2 is happening. The issue is that Greek banks can not offset selling interest and the SMP is forced to buy up eligible collateral which means there is a liquidity crisis. The only thing that could help this would be a greater deficit, which would be funded with more issuance, yet the IMF is forcing Greece to slash its budget deficit, thus substantially reducing future bond issuance, and repoability by local banks with the ECB, as final NBG-intermediated, counterparty. So instead the country's banks need direct foreign capital. However, this capital needs hard collateral pledged. Collateral which would have value in a worst case scenario, i.e., liquidation. Instead, what the EFSF has offered as "collateral" is the equity of the very same firms which will be immediately insolvent once this house of cards collapses, sending the bank equity collateral worthless, and buried under billions of debt liabilities, and in turn impairing the ECB which suddenly finds itself with hundreds of billions in worthless Greek paper, making additional funding for Finland, once it finds itself in a liquidity crisis, next to impossible.
That pretty much sums it up?
We have just one question: why will Finland agree to this again?
All joking aside, we are confident that this being the first bid in a compromise negotiation, Finland will likely end up with Greek bonds as collateral... which however are collateralized with even more worthless assets, and trade at 30-40 cents on the dollar, and as a result of this claim dilution, trade even lower, which in turn will force Finland to demand an 80% collateral haircut on Greek bonds, which kills the whole process as it makes a mockery of the ECB holding Greek debt at par. But fear not: Trichet said the ECB is not a bad bank and holds highly valuable assets.
Whoever said watching massive ponzi scheme unwind is not entertaining obviously had no idea what they are talking about.
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Desperation, bitchezzz!!!
The Tyler on duty is a real censorship beeeeyotch!
Erase this comment too, bitch.
"Collateral. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
As for poor Finland:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aJROW6cuEM&feature=related
Enron bitchez
For real.
External Debt:
UK of 386% GDP.
France 208%.
Germany 163%.
Italy 132%.
Spain 170%.
-- Game Over --
The enemy counterparty of my enemy debtor is my friend lender.
Indeed.
Some additional information that just say it all. External debt to gdp:
Ireland 1106% of GDP
Protugal 240% of GDP
EU and any Euro project is hopelessy doomed.
Now look at the 'third world':
China 5% of gdp
India 21% of gdp
as a note. USA is not as good as the 'third world' but is in 'okey' condition:
USA 99% of GDP
Source: CIA, Eurostat, World Bank, US Treasury.
These national debts are missing one key component: creditors!
Why do I get the feeling that it's all owed in one massive hazy debt circlejerk with no actual net creditors?
Seriously. We know China has ~3tn in foreign cash equivalents, yet they owe 5% of their GDP.
Is this all just a giant scam? If all consumers are in debt, and all governments are in debt, and most banks are undercapitalised, WHO's it all owed to?!
Bingo. It is all a gigantic circle jerk. Where central banks purchase all the bonds and then 'sterilize' it which is a nice word for hauling all the garbage onto banks balance sheets which in turn after a while go broke.It's elementary my dear Watson, the Central Bank Cabal but not through direct money, money as you or I see it but through debt slavery
It's not about the principal it's all about the interest, Central Banks lend to each other the obligations of their citizens, effectively selling taxpayers into slavery of other central banks
It's an extortion mechanism, since the average person and even the governments have no control over what central banks do, they have a card blache
How to rule the world in 5 easy steps
1 - create a debt based monetary system
2 - make sure all central banks are 'independent' as in independent of the people they are supposed to steal from
3 - start lending money to 'other' central banks thus indebting the people without their consent and to be able to charge interest
4 - have the people accept inflation (even at 2%) as good and necessary, as inflation is a liability to the people but an asset to the banks
5 - squash any public or political dissent through black-mail, bribes, entitlements, and if all else fails war
And you forgot:
6. Assonate any President or country leader that wants to remove a central bank or their currency/debt scheme.
Your comment's cool and all until you get to this part:
:(
You mean to tell me that you believe CIA Eurostat WB UST would not tell the truth and nothing but the truth?
Anyway it is the only thing I can provide at the moment I am trying to find 'other' sources.
There ain't a dollar in circulation today that has not been loaned into existence.
Don't worry. Those dollars are backed by people paying their interest... in more dollars.
nice numbers
source?
Source: CIA, Eurostat, World Bank, US Treasury.
http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html
Wikipedia:
External debt (or foreign debt) is that part of the total debt in a country that is owed to creditors outside the country. The debtors can be the government, corporations or private households. The debt includes money owed to private commercial banks, other governments, or international financial institutions such as the IMF and World Bank.
I knew there was some reason for the merger.....now they call it a brand new bank..all is good...take our paper...lol....and they will...that is what is sad....
Ponzi squared. I like it.
Collateral gummi bears, bitchauuuz!
Ironically similar to having convertible bonds in the first fucking place.
In Philadelphia, Its worth fifty bucks
Bill: You hocked a Hattori Hanzo Sword?
Budd: Yep.
Bill: It was priceless.
Budd: Well, not in El Paso, it ain't. In El Paso I got me $250 for it.
wow, funny to see that. I just watched the dvd the night of 'Irene' to pass some time...great movie!
dupe
dupe
Well, logically speaking, if you're going to give them bailout money, you're assuming it's going to work. If that's the case, why wouldn't Greek bank collateral be sufficient? Refusal to take that acknowledges a belief that the bailout will fail.
A demand for gold is as good as saying it's not worth doing in thefirst place (which it's not).
Not demanding collateral seems to be the most optimistic case...but politically perhaps the Fins can be convinced by this scheme.
The German have gotta be thinking they'd get the same treatment as the Finns if they backstopped Europe and all the PIIGS. This little ditty is their future. Run away! Run away!
Things would be so much easier for the EU if they booted Finland...
Rename Iceland Niceland
Rename Finland Not Niceland Bitchez.
I try to explain these macro-economic events to people and they still fail to comprehend how disasterous this will wind up being. So long as they can still get a their 99 cent hamburger everything is just fine and dandy.
All of these bailout packages in Europe are using toxic assets as collateral while the interest rates on the loans makes it mathematically impossible to pay back. Then toss in the derivatives market which is a black hole of debt. The coming collapse will be magnificent to watch. Way better than the final scene of Fight Club.
...And hopefully without a spliced image of a penis.
I'm sorry could you repeat that. I was reading a tweet about Lady GaGa dressing like a boy. Can you imagine?
There goes todays bank rally for the Greeks :)
I wonder why they don't let Lehman finish the deal....
Who would want physical gold as collateral when you can have insolvent greek bank shares??? HELLOOOOO? /sarc
At least Europe will be true to its socialist dreams. Bank nationalizations are just a logical step for this fucked up continent.
And the US banks are.......... Not nationalized??? Come on! Public liability private profits, the US banks are the most nationalized fraudulent banks on the planet.
Well, except for all of the rest.
That's an half-truth. Most US banks were not nationalized before the 2008 bailouts. But I understand your point.
For those who held on to their shares; rumor is they will also allow Lincoln S&L stock to be put up as collateral. <sarc>
I find this pretty funny. Offer shares of insolvent banks as collateral, grab the bailout money from all the suckers, then watch the banks fail anyway, and hand over ownership of the lumps of shit to the same suckers who bailed you out so the big black hole becomes THEIR problem. ROFL!
Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!!
I have a better idea.
Offer Fins free accommodation (and maybe flights) to take holidays to Greece during the winter as collateral. That's something Fins actually WANT because Helsinki truly sucks in the winter, plus it gives Greece a chance to earn some euros as Fins spend on food, sight-seeing, etc. I wish I was joking but let's face it, such a stupid idea is infinitely better than what's actually being considered right now.
Add one greek slave to take home with them and you've got a deal.
Modern day Trojan Horse? Only one thing... is anyone stupid enough to accept it?
Trojan Horse, exactly. And knowing the Greeks, they've probably bought a whole stack of CDS on those banks so they'll get to have their cake and eat it too. Haha, I admire their gall.
Never underestimate the stupidity of politicans.
I know, I can see it now: "Well... this time they provided us with collateral.... so... yeah. Let's do this."
And even better:
Of the EUR109 billion expected to make up the euro zone's second rescue package for Greece, at least EUR20 billion is earmarked for Greek banks, according to Handelsblatt.
With € 20 billion earmarked for Greek banks, about 20% of collateral offered is in fact the 20 billion coming from the of rescue package itself.
Happy donkaments everybody, let's go all-in with 2-7 os preflop
There are no tango palaces in Greece. Finns won't go there.
My favorite thing about this website is Tyler's acid sarcasm. Brilliant!
Let's see what happens in Finland if the eurofanatics agree to accept the equity of the insolvent banks as collateral. The anti-euro True Finns, who made it big in the recent elections, have been getting even more support after they refused to be a part of the "eurofanatic government". According to every single poll AFTER the decision NOT to join the government because of the irresponsible european politics practised by the National Coalition, True Finns have been the biggest party in Finland. The leader of the party, Timo Soini, is calling Finland to stop the bail out madness and just say no to all bail outs and especially the Greek #2. If the government accepts this my bet is that they won't survive untill christmas.
I sure wish I came up with a solution like that for the bill collectors that keep calling.................... wonder if it would work?
You know, since each bill has a cash value, I don't see why not. The only difference between them and a Fed note is the fancy paper.
Now someone might claim that it can't work since the liabilities are backwards, but I say hey, that is soooo 20th Century thinking. In Bizarro World, seemingly anything is possible.
"Dude, can I borrow $2,000 so I can pay the rent on my apartment?"
"What do you have for collateral?"
"Well, my apartment, of course."
"Ummmm, no."
"Dude, can I borrow $2,000 so I can pay the rent on my apartment?"
"What do you have for collateral?"
"Well, the $2,000 I am borrowing from you of course!?"
That's about the size of this deal and yes, you must have a PhD. to understand these complex methods of financial exchange.
Banksters don't trust banksters, who could have seen that one coming?
You have to admire their persistence. Wait long enough and they'll start selling their women.
Wait for it........
But...but...but Greece has physical gold. Oh, wait, they CLAIM to have physical gold. Hmmm.....
... now on a boat to Venezuela...
man when is this train wreck actually going to come off the rails? Emergency Lisborn treaty invocation fun ahead I think...
I'm starting to feel like a rubber-necker watching ZH all day, getting more crazy by the hour..
Only the head of the most toxic CDO in the world ever can come up with a suggestion like that. Let's see, Klaus Regling...
Oh, look what the cat dragged in. The rotten smell of IMF...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Regling
Any one wonder whats going through these bankers head? Really that desperate?
gold bullets?
I dont get your excitement. Greece is 2% of eurozone GDP. Who cares about Greece? Like it really matters.
You seem to be forgetting about the power of leverage and the wonderful world of cross-cascading defaults. Do you believe that the Eurozone has any liquid assets (other than gold) that would be unaffected by an event? Better yet, do they have more than 2% of GDP's worth?
When all wealth is measured in IOUs, it means there isn't any real wealth left.
also, I did not downvote you (IDNDY)
According to the latest news, the ECB banks don't need any additional funding.
I sure hope Ben heard that one.
Just bought two monster boxes of one ounce silver eagles. U.S. may be fucked, but the Mint does produce quality silver bullion coins.
Popcorn eating time.
Also, Eurozone = fucked for certain.
You'll actually pay less premium on these:
http://catalog.usmint.gov/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=15252&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=45005
And get proof US Mint coins to boot!
(Current melt value is $37.53 per set: http://www.coinflation.com/)
The US mint products suck. Couldn't hit the dead center of the planchet even if their life depended on it.
As long as it ain't lead, I'm happy.
Besides, as long as there are still legal tender laws, I can buy land with them for less than $100 per acre.
Holy shit, I thought this might be a prank, so I googled "Nationalize Banks" and the first three links were for articles calling for the nationalization of US banks as well. The dumb.... I just don't know what to say!
Ponzi Scheme Bitchez!
Gold +46 and change for the day...! Rest is will be HISTORY!!! (...must close grrreeeeennnnn....must make bbbboooonnnuusssseeeesss...!) :))
if i were finland, i would hold out for a few of the greek isles. free finnish vacations!!!!!!!!!!!
Somebody has to say it:
All of your islands are now belong to us.
and as per the norm.. the market creams itself in giddy anticipation of another hit of delusion.
Fuck this.
''Trichet said the ECB is not a bad bank and holds highly valuable assets.''
The ECB does hold a fair amount of gold and holds it MTM. Id consider that ''highly valuable''. If the price rises enough it can balance its sheet. Not somthing I see the FED do. Yes The_Euro_Sucks. Still not as bad as the $$$
Just re-value gold to 500 Billion Quatloos, or Euros, and everybody pays everybody back the next day.
Isn't there a myth about perfecting a security interest on shares under Greek law?
Paris works at the sovereign desk of a Troy rating agency.
Three finance members ask him to judge which country has the strongest balance sheet.
Golden apple...
Downgrade that launched a thousand defaults...
Achilles upset about his bonus package...
Carrion dogs...
Etc...
The End.
Lots of stocks turning hard off the lows today. Check out the crappy PM stocks like UXG and SVM are running hard today.
Probably will qualify as a "follow through day" for the IBD Riverboaters and O'Neil will issue a buy after the close, especially with 12 gold and silver stocks in the Top 50 list.
Cool.
We don't need QE3, after all.
Good luck, equity paper certificate holders. Keep buying those undervalued stocks.
See you on the dark side of the moon.
Hooray another proof that absolutely no QE is needed at all with stocks around 10% from all time record highs and daily +100 DUH gains.
National Bank of Greece is as National as the FED, and as Federal as the Federall Express! Do do not confuse "National" with public. Do not confuse Federal with public. See the big picture. National Bank of Greece is a private bank - 92% of shares owner, unknown - and it was created by the Roth's early 19th century as a "sister" bank of BOE, after the family was funded many Greek wars for independence against the Ottoman Empire, only to establish roalty in Greece and create more dept. Rings a bell? It's not a game of solvent or insolvent nations, period. THEY CONTROL THE FIAT! PERIOD! The only way to fight them and killi them is to buy bullion. They can't absolutely controll it as you can understand 'cause of its distribution system. If they could, they would have done it already. Period.
Why do the Europeans insist on throwing good money after bad? The Europeans should just stop supplying Greece with new funding and let Greece default. The idea of preventing "contagion" is clearly not working. Greece (and probably several others) are going to default eventually, so why not just let it happen and get it over with?
There is a saying: "What a wise man does in the beginning, the fool does in the end." (I guess I just answered my own question.)
Exactly. By throwing more good money they don't have after the bad is making the contagion inevitable. At some point it WILL spread to the core countries. It's a circular trap and it will bring the soviet union of europe on it's knees.
Because it's OPM.
The first sentence of this article is a big crock: "That the European ponzi is leaps and bounds ahead of the US is well known."
Clearly, the US is in much worse shape. The US has already done TARP, QE1, QE2, has promised ZIRP for a min. of two more years, and has a gigantic trade deficit. Compare that to what Europes done and Europe is much much better off. Europe actually makes things. I'm not very excited to see what America is going to be like when Americans can only consume what they produce.
We used to make shit. It's just cheaper to buy other peoples shit. So we buy other peoples shit. When other peoples shit's too expensive, people will start making shit so it will be competitive compared to an imported piece of shit. Once people have to consume shit here, that will create a demand for localized shit. Then we'll start making shit again and then we'll be able to buy whatever shit we want.
Tek, you sound like George Carlin. That's a compliment.
Meanwhile the S&P is about to hit 1220 resistance.
Dang theres some RESISTANCE to the daily stock melt-up to almost record highs in 1% GDP bankrupt america? Frankly, Im stunned.
When it comes to Italian bonds, maybe the Finns will accept as collateral some pizza dough the size of Mount Everest.
This is the snake eating its tail. Collapse. Imminent. Run.
I tried this trick as a kid playing Monopoly and was kicked out of the game by the other kids...They got it. Lost my Park Place :(
Finland in conference with Germany, Italy, and France
We already know the results: Euro strong, ECB good, Greece saved, Italy excellent, Spain rallying!!!
Horseshit meetings producing lies.
Just saw 3 stooges pic. More like 17 stooges.
based on the Richie Valens tune "Donna"
Enjoy!
Obummer! by Christina Houston
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiGg8D4hFLc
What fucking equity? The office furniture? Anything that isn't nailed down?
.........................and the Euro holds a 144 handle, simply amazing.
Madoff operated his ponzi scheme for many years to great acclaim and accolades, until it failed.
And forgotten in the Madoff story was the lone guy running around trying to tell everyone it was all a house of cards who got laughed at, until 1 morning. And the dumb 'investors' ran around crying until they got reimbursed...well that wont be happening this time.
Right but he kept it going for a few decades. How long can Europe and the US keep it going? Probably a lot longer than any of us care to admit or wait for.
I would love to invest in companies and the stock market but I don't know the true value of anything becuae the Government has distorted everything. I don't know where exactly the market should be but it damn sure isn't 11,600! My real estimate is somewhere in the 5-6000 range.
But until it gets there I am only making trades with triple levered ETF's to play the vol. When you can make (Or lose) 10% in a few hours it is kinda fun.
Oh, and can my fellow Zero Hedgers please stop saying "When this thing crashes, or Crash imminent." Cause there is not going to be a stock market crash....
This whole world system is set to come crashing down 1 morning, it wont be pretty. All it will take is 1 event. The scam IS ALREADY over, theyre just drawing straws to see who pulls the rug out.
Yes. But they're getting much better at triage. They're getting lots of practice. They may not be kicking the can very far, but they are kicking it.
Great inovative move! Now, why doesn't our government borrow against the their IOU's they've got in the Social Security fund, Budget balanced in one move!
If they can print money out of thin air, why not create collateral out of thin air?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs1RlQKBRpA
Just keep on kicking the can down the road. Just keep on kicking.
I thought I was good at this shit until Tyler explained what is going on with Finland. I know less than I thought. But, hanging in there. Miners starting to warm up now. One more dump on FAZ and I will take a small position just in case our bank problem is not solved. And then hope to add, add and add. But market moving up for a little while. Shorts still very tough.
Check out oil. Say good bye to $3,50 gas, this time for good me thinks. And glad ags and ferts only up 10% this week. Would not want to think food inflation would start up again.
Nope, all deflation...or is that stagflation. Ouch!
If everyone owes everyone else money than nobody can pay back anyone without first collecting it from someone. The only two options are print more money yourself to pay the other guy so he can pay the other guy and so on while still gong deeper in debt, or stop printing and decide to default screwing over everyone you owe money. As long as issuing new debt does not drive someone from the circle it can go on forever.
The problem is one person getting off, then everyone will get off and the whole system grinds to a halt and everything owed to everyone is gone and the entire money supply is worthless. Since the majority of the population of most developed nations really have no real value since even the task of putting in a lightbulb is herculean to them, they will either kill each other or all starve.
It really is that simple and why they just continue to circulate debt with no real intention of ever paying it back with something of real value. We have got to the point where we will either have endless double digit inflation or a total collapse. Collapses could be allowed before because they only truly brought down a single country and they could eventually rebuild and join the circle again. But since we tied the entire globe to a single carousel nobody can be allowed to default because even one broken horse will end the ride for everyone else.
Nobody wants to be the one to stop the ride so even when they know it is fake they still keep on pretending it is real. They all want the Matrix and ignorance, because ignorance is easier.
This is hilarious even to a novice like myself who is outside of the finance industry! Can't Greece hire someone to tranche up these bitch bonds so that the ratings agencies can give them the AAA status they deserve!
Noooo. You need to use bankster language: a "lending syndicate," replete with their fancy tombstones on the paper.
Finnish EU policy has been unconditional surrender from day one. There is absolutely nothing that the present Finnish government wouldn't do to please the EU. This collateral thingy has been just a charade to fool the most stupid voters of the Finnish social democrats, nothing else. Anything would have been acceptable as a 'collateral', anything.
We few, we happy few, we band of silver holders !
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It's political cover for the current government.- pure and simple. This tells me the political tide in Europe is turning. Watch out!
True Finns are underestiamted by the EuroTrash. For example, Finns score higher then ANY other EU country in Reading, Science and Math on the international tests. Only Shanghai, HK, SK and Singapore beat or tie them.
I suspect the euro deadbeats will be surprised by how clever the Finnish people are....JMHO.
Maybe too much EUDSSR propaganda kills brain cells
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