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Europe's Tallest-To-Be Building Is Burning - Live Feed
First the Costa Concordia was a sinking example of the failing European experiment, now we may have an even better case study of the continent's burning ambitions, as the Moscow Federation Tower, designed to be the tallest building in Europe, is engulfed in flames. As RT says, "As firefighters try to put out the flames on the top floors, the danger the incomplete building might collapse is growing every minute." Watch live here until the feed is shut off.
h/t Mario
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Ad-hominems devoid of argument are so 1990s.
I Can HaZ Metling Puddle of Steelz for 6 Months? Cuz steel always sits in a liquified pool for 6 months with water constantly being poured on it. Oh and did you hear? They found the billions in gold that was at the bottom of wtc 1 and 2! Isn't that amazing?
Oh, your rebuttals are so much better since they all contain at least one argument in addition to the Ad-hominem attack?
More to the point, arguments are my primary contribution, not the adhoms, which seems to be the primary contribution of most of the 'truthers' here. So, yes.
Frogface;
Just how did bldg 7 manage to fall...since no plane hit it. And if you say it was the heat from the other bldgs, you must return to school and re-read the properties of steel.
Actually, wasn't it thermate...available only thru the gov.
Just asking...
Oh, I'm sure the presence of nanothermate in the debris is easily explained. I'm also sure a van full of Mossad agents being in place and videotaping the events as they unfolded is also easily explained. It's also easy to explain how Osama bin Laden, a man living in the desert requiring regular dialysis, lived a good decade in kidney failure in third world conditions before being disposed of by our military and dumped in the ocean. It's also easy to explain how hundreds of Israelis working at the WTC got text messages just before the attacks and got the hell out of there. It's also easy to explain how incompetent idiots could take flight lessons for a couple of months and then pull off maneuvers that most professional pilots couldn't.
Again, all easily explained, and nothing nefarious going on here.
"It's also easy to explain how hundreds of Israelis working at the WTC got text messages just before the attacks and got the hell out of there"
Totally fabricated by a pro-palestinian tv station. There is zero evidence that this occurred. Please do your own cause a favor and avoid the stuff that can be easily debunked by snopes.com
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.asp
"incompetent idiots" From all the available information, the 9/11 attackers had the training and could certaintly aim an already flying jet with the flight training they obtained.
The Israeli trading company closely associate with Mossad, broke its lease and moved out of WTC in August '01...(copvcia.com) You are a machine, aren't you....."We are the Borg, We are one"
which company? what's your source? even if they did, how does that show that the attacks were planned? If I quit a job breaking my contract early, and the company goes out of business a month later, did I cause it?
ZIM
You know this isn't the HuffPo, right? You can't spin lies on here...
Days like this i'm ashamed to be a ZH reader. You guys make it so easy for the MSM to dismiss the site as a bunch of whackjobs.
Seriously, leave then. ZH is designed for free-thinkers and people who are sick of being slaves.
You know you're taking "free-thinking" too far when you're not even shacked to facts any longer.
Exchanging one slavemaster for the comfort of another does not make you a free-thinker. It just makes you a fool.
I'm still waiting for your cousins to hook me up with the phone numbers of the dancing israelis. Oh and they did appear on Israeli TV, they exist.
pssst .. let's not talk about them. Let's talk about how you are all nutjobs and wackos. I am embarrased to be on ZH! We are trying to please the MSM here and you aren't sticking to the talking points.
Shouldn't the "thinkers" in "free-thinkers" point you at least in the right direction? "A mind is such a terrible thing to waste..."
Israel has the most psychopaths per capita in the world...
#1 rougue State...The sickoos who run the place can't afford
to let Americans know just how deranged they are. Remember, all of the rich Jews paid off Mussolini and escaped the "Holocaust" and moved to Palestine. OR they got a special "get out of Judism pass" from the Gestapo and joined the GERMAN ARMY!
To their credit, the Mossad warned (tried to) of the coming 'attack' at least four times. Then realizing that it was a 'false flag' operation, moved their GANG out of the building.
Get a clue and stop being a sucker for BIG lies of the maniacs who run this asylum.
Only in the mind of a warped anti-semite can doing everything you can to escape the Nazi death camps somehow be turned into a vice.
The Zio genes always get a little riled up about 9/11 don't they. Best con ya ever pulled.
Ashkenazim, that you call "Jews", are not Semite. Many of them belong, in fact, to the most anti-Semite group on the planet, Zionism. Ashkenazim are ethnically eastern European.
Anti-semite, anti-thermite, what's the difference?
Frog
fuck are you stupid. you might be the only one here who cares what the MSM thinks. The fact that there are so many zombie/sheeple that get their information from the msm is the reason this planet is screwed
If you let people define you by the most extreme elements, you will be dismissed. Any legitimate criticism you have is lost in the shuffle. You play right into their hands.
If you knew who they are, you would know they won't care anyway.
On reflection you sound like you could be the perfect assasin. Pretent to believe in the prevailing dogma and sleep with the enemy. Then draw your knife.
"On reflection you sound like you could be the perfect assasin. Pretent to believe in the prevailing dogma and sleep with the enemy. Then draw your knife."
I'll bookmark this thread for future reference of how the lunacy of the 9/11 'truthers', when challenged, quickly mutates from inane pseudo-arguments to utter raving madness and paranoia.
to me it looks like you and frog are running a tag team. do you sit in nearby cubicles. frog was sounding desparate to convince herself of her own story. survival???? why would you need to bookmark anything here troll.
The israeli Odigo company has submitted the warning messages to the feds for the investigation, it's the open source info.
Ah yes, the Odigo lie. Two employees, who happened to be in Israel, warned about attacks (WTC not mentioned in the message). The company did not order employees to leave any building. Btw, Odigo didn't have offices at the WTC site.
Damning proof of the conspiracy.
Where's my dancing Israeli contact phone numbers you promised me?
Each post should be taken on its own merits vs simply junking everything a posters says. I was not framiliar with this side of the story so I took a few minutes to poke around and it looks to me like everything Xenofrog says in this specific post is correct. If you have contridicting information please post it
It doesn't prove anything by itself. It's part of a larger pattern.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that mossad was behind this... Why is it more likely that a vast network of re-engineering steel buildings, accessing steel beams, stealing debris and somehow using a gravity-machine to accellerate falling.... rather than a set up to allow fanatics to fly planes into buildings and let physics do the rest?
Why is it that you think the ridiculously complex conspiracy is more plausible than the simple one?
I'll tell you... it's because the simpler conspiracy theory doesn't lend to all the nonsensical bullshit claims which have been made so far and debunked repeatedly.
Every ridiculous explaination you have is somehow designed to redeem the previous ridiculous explanation.... you can't just admit that your premise was flawed from the start... you started with the ridiculous claim that fire can't bring down steel buildings, and every other stupid thing you've said follows from that.
Why not accept the FACT that fire *can* bring down steel buildings and think up a new conspiracy that includes Mossad placing agents on commercial US flights?
building 7. all you need to know.
Yes, it burned for hours and significant damage to its foundation resulted from the prior collapse.
WTC7 is not surprising. Fire is, and has always been the enemy of steel structures.
"Fire is, and has always been the enemy of steel structures."
LOL. Wood. I think you meant fire has always been the enemy of WOOD structures.
You are an idiot. Pick up a UL book on building systems design and you'll be hard-pressed to find a detail utilizing steel that isn't shown with fireproofing. Steel weakens with fire. Did you not just see the RT video of that tower in Russia? What if said fire was midway down, where water could not be dropped and where the affected structure was holding up half the building? Sheesh...
It would not fall, nor can you submit any other steel skycraper that fell from a midlevel fire into the record.
Many have been shown in this very thread.
The claim that fire cannot compromise steel buildings is complete nonsense.
BS
not one comparable steel building ever shown to have fallen due to fire
prove it or STFU
And thus the cycle restarts. The counterfactual claism of one 'truther' is shown false, only to have another pop out of the woodwork in the usual ranting, puerile and poorly punctuated style.
Why don't you check out this link to the Great Seattle Fire, where almost the entire city was burnt to the ground due to a spilled glue pot.
0ppenheimer [sic] used the right phrase, just the wrong word. Fire has always been the enemy of wood structures. That's one of the reasons engineers moved to steel and concrete, especially in the urban environment.
I don't know what your agenda is here, but IMO you and your colleagues are being very dishonest. If you think you can run this BS past people who have taken the time and effort to learn how to discern truth from fiction, I think you're mistaken.
AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's amazing with all the evidence now 'out' that there are still people out there that just don't get it.
"THE INDIVIDUAL IS HADICAPPED BY COMING FACE-TO-FACE WITH A CONSPIRACY SO MONSTROUS HE CANNOT BELIEVE IT EXISTS."
J. EDGAR HOOVER
I'm willing to entertain the idea that a conspiracy brought down the towers.
I'm not willing to entertain the absolute nonsense that fire cannot bring down steel buildings. It is patently false.
If you want to believe that 9/11 was a setup that's fine... find an explanation that doesn't defy the laws of physics and decades of engineering fundamentals and get back to me.
I'll give you one (not that I believe it): the US government laxed the "no fly" list sufficiently to get extremists onto airplanes, then delayed their own military response to bring down the planes.... then fire, physics and fundamentalists did the rest.... see how easy that was? And it doesn't require an ever-balooning web of nonsense about thermite, bombs, gravity machines or the like....
Look it is not my intention to get into an argument over 9-11. I have spent the last 10 years and nearly $7,000.00 of my own money researching this 'event.' Richard Gage actually stayed in my home. Frankly, I am a bit tired of it. Nothing I say to anyone who has not invested this much time is going to operate to 'convince' anyone of anything ... and it shouldn't. This is a 'self realization' exercise that each must undertake. Many rabbit holes and dead ends, but in the end, the facts are the facts . . . focusing on just the engineering alone (as many do in the posts above) is insufficient.
The totality of the evidence is so overwhelming that even the Attorney for the 9-11 Commission (John Farmer) himself does not believe his own report. You have Able Danger, the fact Mohammad Atta was a pot smoking, cocaine snorting lap dance buying habitual gambler. Read the book: The Secret World of Jack Abramoff. He also went to day spas. HARDLY A MUSLUM FUNDAMENTALIST.
The 'official version' says that muslum fundamentalists attacked us on 9-11 because of our 'evil ways,' and yet these 'patsies' loved sex, drugs and rock-n-roll.
It's all bull shit my friend.
If you want to believe that 9/11 was a setup that's fine... find an explanation that doesn't defy the laws of physics and decades of engineering fundamentals and get back to me.
"Controlled demolition". A well-developed craft / science / profession demonstrated over and over again on building after building.
WTC 1, 2, & 7 came down exactly like every other successful controlled demolition has.
But believe what you want.
If the thought of this government deliberately killing 3,000 people in a gruesome way is more than you can bear, then you'll probably go insane over what's coming.
I don't have a problem beleivng the government killed 3000 people. I just think that, if they did, they did it by flying planes into buildings. No other decoration is necessary.
There is absolutely no reason to believe in an elaborate controlled demolition.
Nobody responsible has ever said that "Mossad" was behind it.
But, the Silverstein, the main beneficiary of not having to pay to clean all of the asbestos out of his NEW acquisition, is a Jew as were many Gestapo agents....
Why does that theory require thermite, bombs and a gravity machine?
Why do you need to predicate it on the absolutely incorrect theory that fire cannot bring down steel buildings?
Can't you believe in your Silverstein theory alongside the reality that airplanes and fire brought down the buildings?
Why isn't the more logical question "How did they get the planes?"
You keep pushing the notion that fires can bring down modern skyscapers, but where is there is a single example of this ever happening, on any day other than 9/11?
There have been a number of skyscraper fires that burned hotter and for substantially longer, yet none of them collapsed into their own footprint. Your argument has no supporting evidence, and as such it is little more than uninformed opinion.
They didn't have their insulation blown off first with a gigantic impact.
Can't you think for just one minute that maybe, just maybe, that the building collapsed in a strange manner because it was attacked in a strang way?
Cmon Tmos, is this the only skyscraper on the planet to have unusual circumstances happen to it? Hell a 7.1 has more power than two jet fuel explosions, yet none collapse to the ground from an earthquake. Partway collapse, sure.
So? A punch has more energy bullet. A rock has more kinetic energy than a molotov cocktail. The fat cells in your body have more energy than all of the above (god help you if they catch fire).
It only takes a pound of pressure applied to the human arm to break it from an arm lock position.
Nevermind that buildings are designed to survive earthquakes. The WTC was NOT designed to survive a hit by a plane that didn't exist at the time it was built.
Neither did WTC7
They didn't have their insulation blown off first with a gigantic impact.
That just about the dumbest argument I've seen yet.
Can't you think for just one minute that maybe, just maybe, that the building collapsed in a strange manner because it was attacked in a strang way?
It was government-orchestrated controlled demolition moron. Deal with it.
Why is it a dumb argument?
Why is your assertion true?
You want me to just accept what you say at face value. How are you any better than those who you claim conspired to murder so many that fateful day?
I don't fucking care what you think nor believe you stupid koolaid-drinking moron dumbass.
"I don't fucking care what you think nor believe you stupid koolaid-drinking moron dumbass."
Sigh. Thank you and your 'truther' brethren for taking the credibility of Zh down a couple of notches.
Jesus H Christ, tmosley! i have watch your battles on here with others and always have thought you might not be deserving of the beat downs you get. but, now i see you are just another monkey doing the tricks of his master the JEW!
Elsewhere in this clusterfuck of thruther nonsense I made a list of other steel buildings which collapsed due to fire.
Only in the mind of a fool are steel structures immune to fire damage. Pick up a book once in a while.
You want a good textbook example? The Windsor Tower in Madrid. The upper floors, which shared the same construction style as WTC collapsed very quickly in fire.
The lower floors, which were concrete-coated towers, did not.
So we have a partway collapse due to stress. Seems perfectly legit. How many stories were still standing from the "lower floors"? 10? 15? That's a fair amount of building still standing. Was there a molten pile of steel smoldering for 6 months on the bottom floors? No?
OK, let's take your textbook example. The comparison has already been discussed here; here is some of the relevant text:
"... comparisons between the Windsor tower and the WTC Towers are limited because of the very different structures of these buildings. The Twin Towers and Building 7 were both 100% steel-framed, with large wide-flange columns and box columns, some measuring over four feet wide and fabricated of steel up to five inches thick. Severe fires in other skyscrapers which, like the WTC Towers, were 100% steel-framed, have not produced even partial collapses.
In contrast to the WTC Towers, the Windsor building was framed primarily in steel-reinforced concrete, with columns of concrete reinforced by thin sections of rebar. 4 The concrete pillars in the Windsor building are clearly visible in the photographs showing the intact core exposed by the collapsed facade. The very light construction of the perimeter, described below, makes it clear that the core was the main load-bearing component of the building.
Before examining the partial collapse of the Windsor building more closely, we note that steel-framed and steel-reinforced-concrete-framed structures behave very differently in fires.
The thermal and spalling properties of the materials are different in the two forms of construction, so it's not a very good comparison. Yet even the Windsor Building didn't collapse below the fireline, and certainly not into it's own footprint at some fraction of free-fall acceleration. It seems odd to me you're holding this building up as an exemplar of the mechanism you are trying to describe, when the outcomes are completely different. I see a number of similarities among all the major skyscraper fires that jive with the materials and architectures of the buildings. But WTC 1,2, and 7 are completely different. No, these things are not like the others.
You can call me a truther or a conspiracy theorist, or whatever label you might create to jam me into a box of your own creation, but the fact is that we're winning on points. And I'm not talking about arrows.
Once you put the squibs in, it doesn't matter what it's made of.
/sarc off
yeah, just like Saddam had WMD, and had three al-Qaeda gay lovers escorted by Shiite belly dancers...
really?
Yeah, snopes is sooooo reliable. You surprised me xeno.
Nanothermite = iron oxide and aluminum oxide = what buildings (and jet airplanes) are made of. Why should there not be dust from iron, aluminum, glass, tires, etc. blowing all over Manhattan at any given time, simply from corrosion and weathering of NYC?
Fire has never brought down a modern steel tower prior to 9/11. Neither has nanothermite. You have to believe first in some secret government lab making tons of nano-sized thermite particles to buy that senario. However, the nanothermite theory was simply invented because no trace of any other explosive could be found, whereas thermite ingredients are common.
I love it when they start to talk about how the floors turned to powder, and that is proof of demolition. It doesn't get any cuter than that. First, if you want to make a building look like it fell, why implode the floor slabs? Second, demolition crews use gravity to bring down structures. They employ as little explosive as necessary (or go broke). Yet, by "blowing the slabs into powder" they would have released their loads from the steel frame and the buildings would not have collapsed. Demolition teams need that dead weight to bring the building down! Third and funniest, if just 10% of any given floor was turned into powder from explosives, that would be about 600,000 square inches having one ton of force applied on each square inch. And obvously these charges would have been concealed beneath the floor. That makes 600,000 tons of force UPWARD (each twin tower only weighed 500,000 tons) in order to turn the slabs into powder - and of course make the buildings fall "near freefall speed!" Well, maybe launch into orbit at near-freefall speed. So much for "just like controlled demolition."
Six munce ago I cuden't fly a Cessna 172 and got washed out of flight school. No I kin fly a 757 better'n most da miltry pilots!
Hani Hanjour earned his private in 1998. By 911 he had earned a Commercial Pilot certificate which, among other things required him to have at least 250 hours as PIC and either already have, or be working on, his IFR. He also did sim time on Type, which was available to anyone who had the money to pay for it prior to 911.
12,000 gallons of burning diesel and a compromised foundation in the WTC tub?
OMG! My steel kerosene heater just collapsed.
Set up a game of jenga, set it on fire, then pull several pieces out of the bottom.
Ok, well, it fell over, not straight down. Ouch that's hot.
Now what?
when in doubt, play obtuse. The last refuge for the man without an argument.
Most peope have no concept of gravity as a force. It is a fact that if you take any structure, even your hibatchi or a soda can, and enlarge it enough it will eventually collapse on itself. Quarter-mile-high jumbos do not collapse like buildings on a Godzilla movie set or even like 400-foot-tall buildings. No matter how their structure is compromised, 1000 foot+ tall buildings fall straight down.
See? Eleven ignoramouses and counting...
Gravity acts downward. Only a structure's cross section resists gravity. If you enlarge an object, say, by a factor of ten, then it's volume and therefore mass increases 10x10x10. But the cross-sectional area increases only 10x10. So by increasing an object 10 times it looses 90% of it's ability to resist gravity.
If a 6" tall can weighs 1/2 oz and can carry 30 pounds before it crushes, then if you constructed that exact can 480 feet tall, with a proportionate increase in volume and metal thickness, it would still collapse under its own weight. And it would collapse straight down into a disk, just like the 6" can with a 30-pound kid standing on it.
How is that obtuse? You brought up jenga, and jenga never dissolves into it's footprint. Metaphor fail on your part, not his, sorry.
Are Jenga pieces made of high tensile steel now? My old version has wood pieces. Maybe thats why they floated when they fell out of my canoe with my PM stash.
You mean pull several pieces off the top...
The planes didn't hit the bottom.
You should not try melting your Tungsten bars on a sub-standard kerosene heater, dummy.
Thermite, Thermate... they are combinations of rust and aluminum plus some binders and accelerants depending.
It amazes me that people believe that Uncle Sam somehow took down all the walls in the trade center, fitted the beams with thermal cords, then repaired all the walls without anybody noticing...
If you want to believe that Uncle Sam was involved, isn't it much more plausible that airport security mechanisms were deliberately compromised to allow fanatics to get on planes... and the rest of the pieces simply fall into place? The surefire sign of the ridiculousness of this truther theory is that every time a nonsensical accusation gets debunked by simple science the web gets *MORE* complicated rather than less to explain the failed initial premise.
Again, not Uncle Sam--not the bureaucrats, not regular military people, or even regular intelligence agency types, but rather a small, compartmentalized group of trusted black-bag type people. Hell, just one or two people working over a period of weeks with the right access could have rigged the buildings ahead of the event. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it's not ridiculous that the elevator repairmen or painters were up to no good. You wouldn't have had to take down any walls because the main support columns were all in the middle of the buildings surrounding the elevator shafts.
Something else I remember from before 9/11 was a show on tv or possibly and article about the WTC towers that said that the engineers were concerned about the buildings' structural integrity due to all the holes drilled between floors that had been used to route all kinds of telecommunications cabling over the years and that there was a complete moratorium on new holes getting drilled between floors. After 9/11, I could never find any reference to what I had seen, but I'm not imagining it.
No, the steel support was primarily in the outer ring of the structure, which is *why* it collapsed in the predictable way it did.
Why bother spending months rigging this if you're just going to fly a god damned plane through it?
You are not thinking like Oppenheimer.
Like a physicist? Any physicist can do the force diagram demonstrating that a vertical collapse was not only possible, but likely.
The fundamental issue with the truthers is that they refuse to acknowledge that fire can bring down steel buildings. It can, it does so commonly.
Fire has been the known primary threat to steel buildings for decades. It's in every engineering textbook.... The problem truthers face is that they run around in circles trying to prove this ridiculous theory about fire and steel rather than focusing on the much simpler explanation of how these people got into the country, evaded detection and boarded planes.
As I've said repeatedly. WTC collapse doesn't take anything more than Fanatics, airplanes, fire and gravity.
"The fundamental issue with the truthers is that they refuse to acknowledge that fire can bring down steel buildings. It can, it does so commonly."
Give a single example other than 9/11 buildings. Just one will do.
McCormick Place, Interstate 580, Dogwood Elementary School, Mumbai High North, Windsor Madrid, Rosewood Mall... there are many more examples.
Windsor is the most interesting case because it so clearly demonstrates how the specific engineering of WTC lent to its collapse.
The upper floors, which were long beam, non-concreted steel collapsed very quickly in the fire.
The lower floors, which were concrete-surrounded structure with trusses, did not collapse.
We have already discussed this, LOWER FLOORS sounds like 10-15 floors still standing. That is a fair amount of building still standing. It did not dissolve into it's footprint and leave a smolding pile of 'steel' for 6 months. Tell ya what, why don't find out how many floors were still left on these 'lower floors' and give us a link.
OMG, you cite McCormick Place as a comparable example? It's a warehouse! Even in this building, you don't see the columns collapsed. The roof girders gave way; not even a remotely comparable example. I'm not disputing trusses can fail, but the central columns are another matter altogether. I'd address the other cases you cite, but I see you're reading from a script. You missed a few though. Didn't you get the memo?
• Site and Sound Theater
• McCormick Place
• Kader Toy Factory
• Mumbai High North Platform
• Interstate 580
• World Trade Center 5
• Dogwood Elementary School
• Windsor Tower
• Faculty of Architecture Building
None of them are reasonably comparable to a steel framed skyscraper, and I already addressed the Windsor building in another post.
Why bother spending months rigging this if you're just going to fly a god damned plane through it?
a) Because burning jet fuel wouldn't bring it down, and
b) flying a jet into it was a distraction,
c) to convince dumbasses like you a few "terrorists" and some burning jet fuel did it, and
d) it worked :)
Probably collapsed the same way that sappers have been collapsing castle walls for the last 1500 years. Dig a tunnel (was already there) and set a fire (those buildings were on fire, and the collapse certainly pushed more fuel down the corridors).
Honestly, lern2history.
Also, ANYONE can make termite. You can get the ingredients from any paint store, and you can produce them GASP in a fire that contains iron and aluminium, which this one did. You can also powder the shit out of it by dropping a building on top of it.
Hmm.. Heres a question for you. In regards to the 'stealth' bomber/fighter program the US had worked on. They took over 20 YEARS to DESIGN/PROTOTYPE/BUILD these planes and yet NO ONE from any outside source knew of their existence let alone had pictures or even a HINT of what was going on. Yet there were hundreds if not thousands of people in engineering of the parts etc, machining the actual parts (fabrication trials and errors etc). Piolts and of course the airports where they flew these, yet after all those years of 'secrecy', NOT ONE PHOTO OR ANYTHING about them leaked out for the 2 DECADES.
And yet its hard to believe that maybe 40 people planted some bombs in the name of 'national' security? CIA/Spooks/soldiers are willing to DIE for their country and beliefs (or threatened, who knows?), yet to even question 9/11 is a terrst act. LOL..
OK, who knows maybe the 4th time in history a burning building will fall straight down on its own will be this one. (Others were during 9/11 - building seven had nothing even hit it LOLOLOL).
Peace out
I have a Popular Science magazine with the F-117 on it. Lots of people knew about Groom Lake.
Sure, but the photos of the F117 becoming public happened almost 20 years after they had been flying them! People here and there had spotted them, but there was no official recognition.
So until something is officially recognized, it is absolutely top secret without any leaks as was claimed? Or did plenty of people know about it. ie: reality.
What a terrible example. Plenty of people who worked with the technology, Skunkworks and elsewhere knew about the planes. Can you really call it a secret when everyone including the Russians knew about them?
OxenFrog has no identity.
In some ways she was far more acute than Winston, and far less susceptible to Party propaganda. Once when he happened in some connection to mention the war against Eurasia, she startled him by saying casually that in her opinion the war was not happening. The rocket bombs which fell daily on London were probably fired by the Government of Oceania itself, “just to keep the people frightened.” Orwell, 1984, 127.
With the publication of the Report of the Commission to Investigate Terrorist Attacks upon the United States (also known as the Kean-Hamilton Commission after its chairman and vice-chairman), the pattern of coverup and incompetence on the part of the officially constituted investigative agencies of the United States Government is complete. Since September 11, 2001, no part of the United States Government has offered a convincing, coherent, complete explanation of the events of that day, and of other events related tothem. Indeed, no US government agency has ever so much as proposed to prove the truth of the official account, even in the way that the Warren Commission attempted to demonstrate the veracity of its version of the Kennedy assassination. The Kean-Hamilton Commission called no hostile witnesses, no skeptics, no devil’s advocates. It ignored a growing number of book-length studies which have appeared in English, French, German, and other languages around the world. It never invited to its plenum FBI whistle-blowers like Colleen Rowley (who shared Time Magazine’s Person of the Year honors at the end of 2002), nor did it call FBI agent Kenneth Williams, theauthor of the famous Phoenix memo, to testify in its plenary meetings. The Commission was, by contrast, happy to invite the obsessive anti-Iraq ideologue Laurie Mylroie, a fanatic so notorious that she is dismissed with contempt as “totally discredited” even by Richard Clarke in his book, Against All Enemies. (Clarke 232) As we will show at various points in this study, the Kean-Hamilton Commission represents a cynical and meticulously orchestrated exercise in coverup and obfuscation. The net overall result of the Kean-Hamilton Commission has been to obscure even those few relevant facts which had become well established in the mainstream media prior to its inception. Before the Kean-Hamilton Commission, the chronology of events regarding the interplay among the Federal Aeronautics Administration (FAA), the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), and other government agencies had been fairly well established by the 9/11 truth movement. The deliberately doctored chronologies offered by the Kean-Hamilton staff have turned that clear picture into chaos. Before the Kean- Hamilton operation went to work, there was an important debate about whether phone calls received at the White House on the morning of September 11 had indicated that unauthorized persons were in possession of top-secret US government code words. The Kean-Hamilton Commission has now assured us that this crucial incident in effect neverhappened. Before Kean-Hamilton, Congressional Committees and the National Institute of Standards and Technology had been forced to grapple in public with the blatant anomalies of three modern steel skyscrapers collapsing on the same day as the result of fire – something that has happened on no other day of world history. For the Kean-Hamilton Commission, this problem simply does not exist – it has disappeared from the official narrative. No account has been taken of critical or skeptical commentaries, even when these have been the centerpieces of books which have reached the top of the best-seller charts in important countries like France, Germany, Italy, and elsewhere, or have been telecast in prime time in these same places. The demands of the bereaved families of
9/11 have been ignored – even though it was because of the persistent lobbying of these families that the Kean-Hamilton Commission ever came into being in the first place. A cruel hoax has been practiced on these families, and those who thought that an attempt to cooperate in good faith with the Kean-Hamilton Commission to guide it toward the truth have received a bitter disappointment. The Kean-Hamilton Commission in short has shown no decent respect for the opinions of mankind, and has submitted no important facts to a candid world. The Kean-Hamilton Commission has turned out to be nothing more than a colossal exercise in begging the question. Everything that was controversial, everything that was dubious in the eyes of billions around the world has been simply assumed to be true and posited as the starting point for the entire inquiry. As a fallacy this has been around since the medieval schoolmen, who called it petitio principii. In the hands of the Kean-Hamilton Commission, begging the question is meant to work as an arrogant, bureaucratic act of superior power. Believe this, said the Inquisition, or be damned. Believe this, says the Kean-Hamilton Commission, or be vilified as a paranoid obsessed with conspiracies. Thus, when the 9/11 commission was created, it formed nine investigative teams. The first of these was entitled: “Al Qaeda and the Organization of the 9/11 Attack.” That is a clear case of rush to judgment and jumping to conclusions, since such a finding should be the end result of an inquiry, and not its starting point. For the Kean-Hamilton Commission is not a contribution to scholarly debate. It is just as much a part of the US government’s assault on the world as an F-16 bombing Fallujah. For the Kean-Hamilton Commission is an act of ideological terrorism worthy of Senator Joe McCarthy. Behind it stands the taboo proclaimed by the figurehead of the regime: We must speak the truth about terror. Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th, malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists themselves, away from the guilty. (UN General Assembly, November 10,
2001) It is a point of view at variance with the best moments in American history, as we intend to show. But no amount of bureaucratic arrogance has been able to paper over the manifold absurdities, the contradictions, the impossibilities, the outrageous flaws that infest the official version of the 9/11 events. The Kean-Hamilton Commission simply has no answer for questions about how the alleged hijackers were identified, how they were able to operate, why WTC Building 7 collapsed, why air defense was non-existent, what hit the Pentagon, what happened over Shanksville, what happened to the insider trading, and many more. For any serious, intelligent person – and there are many – the Kean-Hamilton pastiche can only be rejected. The failure of the Kean-Hamilton Commission leaves the world with the imbecilic myth: the four airliners were hijacked by nineteen Arabs, from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Kuwait. Their squad leaders were Atta, Shehhi, Hanjour, and Jarrah. Their “mastermind” was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Their rear echelon was Ramzi Binalshib. Their guru was Osama Bin Laden, the terrorist pope who lives in a cave. From his distant grotto in the mountains of Afghanistan, Osama Bin Laden, the diabolical genius of the twenty-first century, directed the worldwide network that attacked the United States.
Not the same and yet the same...I can feel that sweet smell of cordite again. Last time Putin needed extra boost,big apartment buildings in Moscow started to explode.Ergo ipso - shortly therafter the Caucasus started to explode and the rest is history. Neverending success for Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. T
hough he obviously had a lent a leaf out of someones notebook.
Who would you nominate for the neo-awards. Who´s the best contemporary version of Göbbels,Göring and Big H himself?
I for one will put a fair amount of money into Moscow Stock Echange. Since beginning of 2000-s I have netted 500% there. P is back and the natural resource rich companies with a current p/e pf 10 or less are set for comeback.
Once those columns heat up a bit then a pancake scenario straight down is sure to occur just as in WTC7. Demolition companies have really scammed the public into thinking that a lot of complicated blasting techniques are needed to safely destroy a building.
Not to worry, they can build another one, even bigger, and better, using debt.
Difficult one. I was in NYC at the time and convinved it was terrorism, then in later years living away from the US, the longer term perspective tempts a conspiracy theory, but still difficult to believe such an act would be related in any way to the US government. It is after all an administration voted for and to serve the people of the country.
I mean, you are saying that someone somewhere in one of the US administrative bodies actually built a business case for 9/11 and said... "we estimate potential fatalities from this plan are in the range of 0-6000 american citizens"... and another US administration member said "that's acceptable, proceed"
PNAC
They should build em like projects.... cinder blocks dont burn...
The big problem is going to be those underground fires from this burning sky scraper. Remember on that fateful Tuesday morning when that underground fire from the WTC towers lit and collapsed building 7 at free fall speed?
/sarc off
According to ZH Europe was supposed to have collapsed 3/6/9/12/18 months ago.
But I like the analogy of a sunken ferry (you know maaan, kewl stuff like dead 5 year old kids maaaan) and EU debt problems.
Why don't you people club together and feed some of your own starving kids, or maybe give prison sentences to 'soldiers' who murder little children and teenagers in Iraq instead of letting them off scot free?
You frightened little bitches.
911 Was an IJ
As RT says, "As firefighters try to put out the flames on the top floors, the danger the incomplete building might collapse is growing every minute."
What a joke, steel buildings can't burn/collapse, Rossie O'Donnell proved it.
They can if you run a plane into it and then cut a bunch of columns with thermate.
Yeah...and do you see any planes - no you don't.
We need to get Rosie over there in the closest available C-5 ASAP!
Jeez, somebody isn't a fan of thermate apparently.
I junked you for "bunch of columns."
The proper terminology is 'gaggle of columns'.
No, I'm pretty sure it's 'bevy'.
I'm pretty sure it's an "accordsordium of columns."
My background makes me think it was a spreadsheet of columns.
Thermite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
When does it collapse at free fall speed?
Any minute now...
It first has to be announced on TV BEFORE it happens then it will happen....
Too Big to Fall!
Drop one strength compromised (with burning jet fuel) concrete and steel floor ontop of the one under it, then you have two concrete and steel floors falling onto the floor under that. You get to freefall very quickly.
Right, into fine dust, no debris.....Sorry, I over-estimated your intelligence
They spent months removing and testing debris from the site during cleanup...
Oh, don't you mean waiting for the pile of molten, smoldering 'steel' to get below 2k farenheit, even though they were pouring water on it for 6 months? There, fixed it for ya.
How could there be any molten steel there if a kerosene fire doesn't get hot enough to melt steel, and not just barely melt it at that, since it took many days to cool enough to solidfy?
no debris, except for the WTC "bathtub" filled with the debris. You need to stop posting and seek professional counseling.
Explain WTC7.
12,000 gallons of burning fuel and a compromised foundation. You do know two giant buildings collapsed right next to it right?
12,000 gallons of burning fuel and a compromised foundation. You do know two giant buildings collapsed right next to it right?
Congratulations, you get the dumbass-of-the-day award.
Icing on the cake of GREED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapping
We had a perfectly intact Head Terrorist Passport, unburned, how's that for killer debris. I heard he had good taste in hookers, for a muslim.
XenoFrog,
You have everything to learn...
AE911
http://www2.ae911truth.org/ppt_web/30min/slideshow.php?i=7&lores=1
Webster Tarpley
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1061916535027209358#
Problem here is the towers fell from the upper floors collapsing on lower floors, not the base being blown out. But, the mass was sufficient to create something similar to what one would realize in a controlled demolition - progressive collapse. There simply was not enough structural capacity at the affected levels to "pull" the towers completely over" into what people might expect - like a tree falling over.
Xenofrog is correct. It is called progressive collapse. Just a matter of physics and materials. Not that there isn't some sort of conspiracy behind the events - but we are talking about something else here.
AE911
http://www2.ae911truth.org/ppt_web/30min/slideshow.php?i=7&lores=1
Reduced to linkdropping?
Try arguments instead of spam.
I only provide this link service for you as you have the inabilities of a person that long words have inordinate challenges, and I would prefer you read them at your own pace in your mothers basement without burdening us with long anticipation...And your misguided analysis.
It's always fun to argue with people who think that science and engineering are conspiracies.
It's always fun to see some Hasbara shill try and debunk people with engineering degrees.
A person with a degree in astrophysics could say that the sun goes around the Earth, but that doesn't make it so.
Ideas fight ideas. Claiming that you have some secret knowledge that is beyond the ability of others to understand is not the way to find the truth. But truthers aren't really interested in the truth. They are interested in perpetuating their assertion in the face of any and all evidence to the contrary.
You do realize that these buildings were not built in a conventional manner, right? Do some reading. Look at the load bearings. If anything they should have tipped over.
And if you don't think elements within the government can keep a secret please enlighten me as to who murdered a sitting US President in the middle of the day in a major US metroploitan area about 50 years ago? It's been going on for quite some time.
See also TWA800, etc.
You people here are really not educated in this manner. By the way - it is called "load bearing" in terms of structure. There is no such thing as "load bearings" that one would look at. It would be review of the entire building, vertical and lateral systems (superstructure).
The buildings were uncoventional for the time from what I recall. Lightweight longspan joist construction around the core. More easily compromised by fire in a way that can produce catenary forces similar to cables that would be used to implode a building. Failure of local floor sections results in dramatically greater unbraced lengths for columns as well. With enough mass above, once the structural integrity of the level(s) in question is compromised, progressive collapse is the result. Buildings are not designed for the dynamic impact of multiple stories above crashing down on them. Quite simply, the structure would be shredded by this - in an increasingly destructive manner as the collapse picks up speed (not free-fall, but is accelerating towards free-fall).
I agree with the secret thing though.
The very act of a floor hitting the one below it negates the possibility of "freefall" speed. Why don't you at least attempt to educate yourself instead of spewing out your preconceived (and MSM fed) understanding of what happened?
The floors were not strong enough to support the floor above it, let alone all the office crap and pieces of the plane that were on it. One falls onto the next, onto the next, drastically increasing the downward force. Viola, freefall speed.
Freefall would imply terminal velocity wherein only air resistance (aerodynamics of the falling body) inhibits further acceleration. The impact of the structure above on each floor below, despite it happening so fast, offers some resistance. So, to be technically correct, I would say not free-fall, but rapidly accelerating towards freefall.
Just a minor edit to your case here today - because everything else you have said relative to building behavior is correct.
For all the good it will do me. Labeled a Zionist robot because I look at the science rather than parroting rumors created by paranoid mental patients.
LOL. And I get junk after junk for saying there could be a conspiracy - BUT, the collapse of the towers was well within the realm of possible (and plausibe) physical behavior. HAHAHA.
There WAS indeed conspiracies, but those were one, in covering up the utter incompetence of the US federal government and its agencies, two, in broadly milking the atacks for every fucking drop of public and international sympathy, and to condone a decade of military adventures around the world, and three, put the american public into a constant state of fear by assuming there is a terrorist on every block,r eady to blow them up, thus necessitation extensive violations of freedoms and privacy.
But, for some, this isn't enough. Government HAD TO DO IT AS WELL.