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Tyler Durden's picture


By now everyone has seen this, as it has been posted on Zero Hedge about n+1 times. And if the haven't, they should.

They should also see this. We will shortly update where this chart will be by the 2012 election, somewhere around 120% of GDP.

And for those requesting it, here again is the log scale chart.

Source: NYT


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Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:39 | 1510026 Subprime JD
Subprime JD's picture

The way to hell

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:09 | 1510106 themiestro
themiestro's picture

Damnit!  After all these years, I though going straight up brought you somewhere else.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:35 | 1510157 Fish Gone Bad
Fish Gone Bad's picture

And Barbie says, "Math class is tough!!!" ( .  I am thinking that this was the ONLY toy that Barney Frank had to play when he was young.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:51 | 1510210 Blano
Blano's picture

Apparently he spent most of his time with Ken, instead of Barbie.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:24 | 1510448 the mad hatter
the mad hatter's picture

I wonder what the inflation adjusted debt limit chart looks like

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:54 | 1510491 grekko
grekko's picture

Me thinks that the first chart says it all...GAME OVER!

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:58 | 1510497 grekko
grekko's picture

Dump the log chart, it looks too timid.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:48 | 1510658 mickeyman
mickeyman's picture

I don't know--there's still some white space left at the top of the chart.

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 02:27 | 1511735 snakeboat
snakeboat's picture

buh buh buh isn't more always better?  my tv tells me so...

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:54 | 1510220 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Anyone can go straight up, after a certain point you need a little more horse otherwise you feel Gravity taking hold.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:24 | 1510449 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

hard for Congress to feel gravity when they're already in deep outter space and at ramming speed toward Planet Uranus

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 22:49 | 1511384 ceilidh_trail
ceilidh_trail's picture

"ramming speed toward planet Uranus" mentioned after barney. UGGHH!!!

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:42 | 1510194 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Ah... Whats another few Trill$...


USD revese split coming down the line anyways.

Will it be $1 new for $50 old or 1. for 100. ???



Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:31 | 1510297 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

That will happen after the elites are fully rotated out of dollars.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:09 | 1510355 toady
toady's picture

My wife & her side of the family are from Mexico.

The split ratio is their favorite discussion lately.

Most are saying 10:1. Thats the ratio that the Mexicans usually go with...

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:18 | 1510434 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

"Most are saying 10:1. Thats the ratio that the Mexicans usually go with."

Makes sense, roughly speaking, parity with the Mexican Peso.  How low can you sink?

Now, if the Canadian Dollar would fall too, (USD=MXP=CND) then I would finally start believing all of the talk of the "Amero".

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 21:45 | 1511229 Dimeboy
Dimeboy's picture

Since the last NA Cooperation treaty was signed, the Canadian dollar is now "dirty" pegged to the USD - where it goes, the Canucko will follow - at a discreet distance and interval so as not to be too obvious.  Not more than a 10% variance.  Well in reach of an Amero forced parity when and if required.

I'm sure someone can produce a historical chart to test this statement....

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:05 | 1510524 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

Any "revaluation" of the USD would be interesting in regards to how it's pulled off.  The paper money can be voided in favor of new notes with the new smaller (i.e., one-tenth value) denominations.  But coins would probably be left as-is.  So if we have to trade in $100 of the old bills for $10 of the new, our coins would be allowed to retain their face value through the transition.  So a quarter would then be worth ten times its former value, and therefore "valuable" again.

Just sayin'...those pennies and dimes in your closet jar might actually be worth something at some point.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:43 | 1510035 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

Of course it's going exponential, a credit-debt system must continue to grow exponential or it will collapse.  Right now the system is unable to expand.  System reset.  

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:55 | 1510067 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

It really is that simple. Money is debt with interest attached. Growth of debt/money is required as there is no money in the system to pay the interest. This isn't about gov't debt solely, rather aggregate debt in the system (household, corporate, gov't and financial). 2000 would have been the beginning of the end but the fed blew up the housing market (with help). 2008 was the same, enter uncle Sam. The end is near.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:53 | 1510197 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

Not so simple when the creditor and debtor become the left and right pocket, and all interest paid to the right pocket is refunded back to the left pocket.  The Fed is slowly and methodically acquiring all the shit debt which changes everything.   

Besides the book of Leviticus calls for a debt Jubilee to occur every 50 years.  Just wait until the Fed pardons the "public's debt" and we start from scratch.  We're a "Christian nation," right?

This charade can go indefinitely. Neither Weimar nor Zimbabwe owed their debts to themselves, nor were those debts denominated in their own currency.

No need to hide those hams quite yet.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:56 | 1510224 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I am with you on this one.

I have absolutely no idea what will happen to individual debt such as Student loans. If it is wiped away or reduced, then the Nation gains power from People on up.... if it is increased or greatly interest burden, then the Nation falls into the darkness.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:21 | 1510438 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

I doubt they would wipe the debts free as that would crush the banks and current owners of this country and, as you say, give the people more power. My quess is this would be the least likely outcome that the owners will allow. However, I would like to be pleasantly surprised.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:57 | 1510229 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

It will not go on indefinitely, see every monetary system in history.   This one will collapse just like all the prior ones have collapsed.  

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:13 | 1510242 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

Show me an example where the country in question was, simultaneously, its own creditor and debtor, had debts denominated in its own currency (not reliant on FX markets to service the debt), and, AND, had the largest most powerful military on Earth.

oh, and 50 bonus points if the currency of the country in question was also regarded as the world's reserve currency where virtually all commodity transactions were denominated in it. 

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:14 | 1510259 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Rome? Though I guess you could say that their creditors were the hoards of goths doing their dirty work near the end of the empire's impression of a failed souffle.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 19:00 | 1510708 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Dont foget the visigoths. They had urban planning as well.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:35 | 1510309 pods
pods's picture

Sorry Adolf, we are not our own creditor and debtor.  

The interest argument is a red herring as well.  Sure the interest is repaid to the treasury, sans operational cost.  This is payola for the banks to be able to create credit out of nothing.

For another bonus, what would happen if any large amount of debt was forgiven?  Any large discharge of debt would lead to a cascading default.

Even if we did own our own debt, since it is also our currency, we cannot just discharge said debt, as the contraction of the supply of money (reserves) would collapse the whole system.

Why do you think that in 2008 they did not just pay off mortgages?  It would have been cheaper.  

Cause it would contract the money supply to the point where we would have a waterfall collapse.

Sorry, I will take PMs and my ham orchard thank you very much.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:34 | 1510374 cartonero
cartonero's picture

I can understand that discharging debt destroys debt-based money and contracts the money supply.  But in our fiat system, wouldn't paying off mortgages have given the Fed the opportunity to create new reserves to prevent inflation?  That seems to be what they did anyway, the only difference being that the beneficiaries of the Fed's actions were the TBTFs instead of the populace.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:21 | 1510440 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yep. Either way purchasing power is crushed and the best store of value remains fruit trees, hog farms, and precious metals.  All of this is the result of an economic ponzi that ignores the physical contraints of any closed system (such as the earth or solar system) and depends on infinite growth.  Common sense should tell you that won't work.  Even if we were to get off this rock common sense tells you that all truly revolutionary technology takes time to develop.  The only deflation that is coming is the human kind.  Food and fuel costs will skyrocket shortly, especially for those not associated with TPTB.  No energy, = no food and definately no economy.  Look at the real energy costs around the world, America has been lucky for 30+ years because of the deals forced upon the ME in the 70's.  Those deals are coming to an end and America doesn't have the capital (because of real capital destruction by Wall street and big banks, but this is another story) to keep subsidising food and fuel.  Hold on, now things get interesting.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:08 | 1510530 Pay Day Today
Pay Day Today's picture

"For another bonus, what would happen if any large amount of debt was forgiven?  Any large discharge of debt would lead to a cascading default."

This is not a necessary consequence of debt forgiveness e.g. where all debts are reduced by 30%. A cascading default is likely to occur anyway even without debt forgiveness.

A loss in bank reserves contracting the money supply can be avoided if you ignore reserve requirements to start with. OR simply have the Federal Government print base money itself to resupply the reserves destroyed by the debt forgiveness.

Someone needs to bring back Glass-Steagal.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 20:59 | 1511024 pods
pods's picture

Correct me if I am wrong  (common occurence with me), but wouldn't the government's raw printing of money be highly deflationary?  If they were to issue money without more debt attached, this would hasten the deflationary cascade, would it not?  Newly issued notes would dilute the value of old debts, and would not be able to be discharged (theoretically) as old notes are.  This issuance would lead to debt being extinguished at a faster rate if I am thinking about this correctly.  So Ben's threat of dropping FRNs out of a helicopter would actually be HIS end, not ours.

I am not a banker, and am not familiar with all the TIPS, POMOs, etc.  Having only a macro view of the variables, to me it would seem that this would be the case.

If reserve requirements were removed (like they were) then banks could survive (as they have) but it would make them more likely to suffer from either runs (haha) or downright attack as without reserve requirements then there are no standards with which banks can judge the standing of each other.  

I agree on bringing back Glass-Steagal, but would even say that we need a good old fashioned collapse so that my children will not grow up as debt serfs, as we all have here, many without our knowledge.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 21:17 | 1511122 Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

England at the height of her Empire. Ater 2 world wars, a depression, and fifty years of socialism not so much.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:53 | 1510211 duo
duo's picture

Cue "Twilight Zone" music:

You are entering another dimension, one not of sight or sound, but of math.

It is as vast as space, and bounded by infinity.

It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between reason and stupdity,

And it lies between the pit of our debts, and the summit of taxation.

This is the world of fiat currency, a world we call...

the Twilight zone.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 21:48 | 1511233 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture



"The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function." ---Albert A. Bartlett

Link to this must see video here



Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:40 | 1510640 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

42 votes up, 6 down...  48 votes..   I don't really feel special as a voter anymore... :*|

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:44 | 1510038 Pico
Pico's picture

so as I read that, to return to the post second world war prosperity we need to peak out the debt to gdp at 140% and not get back to 100% for around 5 years...

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:50 | 1510054 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

Na, if your a republican who voted twice for Bush you'd probably say that we need to start a new world war!  Oh, whats that you say?  We're officially in three already?  Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq... And you say there are more unofficial wars?  Pakistan, Iran, and North Korea?  Thats all BS, our President is a Nobel Peace prize winner... and those aren't wars -- they're just "non combat operations" of heavily armed troops and big missiles...

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:04 | 1510082 coded language
coded language's picture

You forgot Yemen and Syria is in the fix right now

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:10 | 1510108's picture

Somalia too.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:38 | 1510462 el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

Lebanon and Gaza also.  I figure Iran wil go hot before the end of September, starting with an Israeli attack over a negotiated air corridor with the Saudi's.  Then Iran shuts down the dire Straits of Hormuz and Saudi oil with their missiles.  $300 oil should give TPTB an excuse for the collapse.  It was the Iranians fault for inviting an Israeli attack.  Israel also has some serious internal economic problems, with huge street demonstrations by Jews scantily reported in our MSM.  Their Ponzi is collapsing.  Maybe they should ditch the shekel and join the Eurozone.  I figure Gates left defense because he knew how stupid it was but got overruled by the senators and reps from Zion.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:15 | 1510119 A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000
A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000's picture

War on Drugs anyone?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:21 | 1510137 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

War on Drugs anyone?

I think they mean, War on Competition.  All that South American coke and Afghani Kush belongs to the CIA and the elites.  Can't let them dirty brown people cut into globalists profits.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:42 | 1510192 Mr Kurtz
Mr Kurtz's picture

Sounds like you just described the so-called "war on terror".

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:46 | 1510202 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Or the "War On Poverty"

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:57 | 1510230 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

"War, war, war... fiddle dee dee; all you men run off to play war..."

A cookie for you if you know where this came from.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:56 | 1510338 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

Scarlett O'Hara, Gone with the WInd.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:30 | 1510153 coded language
coded language's picture

Uuuurp. Gotta get tough on Crime. Fill those private prisons, yo. Cha-ching$$

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:38 | 1510181 The Grip
The Grip's picture

Some would argue that the most expensive of all of the operations the US is involved in, combat and otherwise, is currency hegomony with the renminbi. Often this argument is made under a more general observation that WW3 is underway as we speak.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:24 | 1510447 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

WW3 has been underway for some time now.  Trade wars, currency wars, resources wars, etc.  Just remember, when goods and services stop crossing boarders, troops do.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:15 | 1510120 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Don't forget to do it after the rest of the developed world has been flattened by war.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:46 | 1510040 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

For an even better chart, one only need to look at the cost of funding the debt.  Its even steeper thanks to the anticipated rising of interest rates over the next decade!  Compounding interest is a bitch.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:45 | 1510041 IAmNotMark
IAmNotMark's picture

Print or die.

Well...Print and die.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:46 | 1510042 random shots
random shots's picture

Semi Log, please...or at least a link to the data set.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:47 | 1510044 anynonmous
anynonmous's picture

Reid just lost his cloture

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:53 | 1510061 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

He looked a little disappointed, like he might cry.  Now he "hopes" to get it done before markets open in a few hours... what a joke.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:26 | 1510147 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Puppet show back and forth results in no bill, no compromise... Obummer steps in, address to the nation, executive order, extends our credit card another 2trillion.

Further marginalize the house and senate, further acclimate the sheeple to executive abuse of power and continue the assault on the constitution.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:09 | 1510356 Hearst
Hearst's picture

Hugh G, I think the executive order is spot on..

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 20:43 | 1510980 Arthor Bearing
Arthor Bearing's picture

Hugh G Rection has penetrating wisdom

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 22:55 | 1511396 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

And, he's NOT gonna pull out until the climax!  :>D

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:32 | 1510163 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

Agreed.  I can't believe how the "market" has made common sense its bitch.  The only reason they want to pass something is to protect their precious stock portfolios and all the other 401K drones that are planning to retire on something that won't exist either way.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:32 | 1510371 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Anyone with money still in a 401(k) at this point is an idiot.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:22 | 1510441 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

It looks more like ANYBODY WHO STILL HAS MONEY IS A LUCKEY BASTARD at the way this is going.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 22:56 | 1511401 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

FRNs, Bonds, Stock certificates, etc != MONEY

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:48 | 1510045 Monetary Lapse ...
Monetary Lapse of Reason's picture

What's your point... are you against growth?  That looks all well and growthy to me.  

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:11 | 1510110 Ramboy
Ramboy's picture

ZH is rapture worship

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:20 | 1510136 Ramboy
Ramboy's picture

Anyone who professes principles, ethics and morality is a religious bent moron and most likely a hypocrite who just came out of a 120 year coma straight from the little house on the prarie

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:37 | 1510312 pods
pods's picture

Morals and principles are for the small people.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:50 | 1510664 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

Actions speak louder than words. People who hype themselves up probably have an agenda, but that doesn't mean there aren't those out there with ethics and moral principles who go unnoticed. They just don't get a leg up from TPTB like all the yes we cans.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:13 | 1510118's picture

That growth looks suspicious. Better have a doctor remove it.

RP 2012!

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:27 | 1510148 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

That growth is def malignant

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:50 | 1510052 Jambo Mambo Bill
Jambo Mambo Bill's picture

We can see that the next thing in that chart got to be another WWar.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:03 | 1510088 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

Right, the last time we got Debt to GDP this high WWII ended and we came out swinging as the victors. We manufactured our asses off.

Minions say Debt doesn't matter. They don't know that, it is theoretical economics.

How are we setting up for the post ME wars?

Not Good.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:50 | 1510053 nmewn
nmewn's picture

First one kinda looks like gold priced in dollars...wonder why that would be ;-)

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:56 | 1510226 css1971
css1971's picture

Funny that.


Must be.


Course wage growth is a much flatter exponential curve. Wonder what that means.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:56 | 1510339 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

Nope, just "Tradition."


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:02 | 1510347 Mike2756
Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:27 | 1510453 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Notice that dollar destruction really began with the creation of the federal reserve banks.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:57 | 1510062 Contra_Man
Contra_Man's picture

Can GDP be Fudged and thus even understate this ratio?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:01 | 1510086 KeyserSoze
KeyserSoze's picture

Of course it can. GDP growth is fudged is it not?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:17 | 1510130's picture

Government spending, whether through revenue expenditures or through deficit spending is included in GDP. So if the US borrows and spends a trillion dollars then GDP goes up by that amount. Kind of skews the ratio.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:35 | 1510171 Sam Clemons
Sam Clemons's picture

I think derivative sales are also included in the GDP.  That said, if we shuffle money from the left pocket to the right pocket enough, we can print some amazing GDP numbers denominated in dollars that are becoming worth less (not worthless because people still accept them).  Gresham's Law will kept them in circulation while all the good shit disappears.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:57 | 1510402 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Of all the stats the government puts out GDP is the Mother of All (MOA) fictions.  It was never really very accurate even before I knew how to count ( before the 60's) but at some point in the Nixon/Ford era they gave up and just started estimating based on suppositions and lowered by inflation, I am guessing GDP is at least a trillion lower than they commonly cite for the simple reason that CPI understates inflation and the cumulative effect has over the years caused an overstatement of the GDP, and one of the best tools for watching it was the data for M3 money supply, now known only to the Fed and federal government since they stopped reporting the data.  But even if this plug number were anything close to what is actually happening in the economy it is still not really meaningful in any but the most macro sense of finance.  One of the reasons I retired so young from finance was that without good data you cannot do your work, it was just absurd going in to the office and spending 8 hours or more under hellish flourescent lighting jst to produce charts and papers that supported a preordained position all the while knowing the original data was a guess at best and utterly corrut in all likelyhood.

TYLER:  I will actually make a $ donation if you will bring back the spell checker. 

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 05:22 | 1511830 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I agree fully. GDP ist the economist's way to compare the "produce of the land" like a pie to be gobbled up.

Oh, that much was eaten, that much is seed for next year, that much was exported, that much was imported...

It's a statist view, useful for socialists after the right amount of distortion.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:16 | 1510127 A Man without Q...
A Man without Qualities's picture

I'll assume this is a genuine question, so offer this as a good place to start...


IMHO, US GDP is overstated by a good 30%...

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:53 | 1510212 Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

You're kind of new to Newspeak aren't you??

Even fudge can be fudged -- if you create enough sub-committees and throw sufficient (other people's) money at the 'problem'.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:55 | 1510065 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Republican presidents raised the limit 49 times, Democrat persidents raised it 29 times.

Any chance we can we get over this myth that Republicans are more fiscally repsonsible? The reality is both parties are owned by their corporate masters.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:04 | 1510092 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

The reality is that there is no equivalent of the Tea Party or a libertarian wing among the Dims.  They purged their conservatives and freedom lovers years ago.

This matters because there will be a morning after.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:13 | 1510116 grey7beard
grey7beard's picture

>> there is no equivalent of the Tea Party or a libertarian wing among the Dims.

The Dims don't have a bunch of extremist right wing, pro war goons funded by the Koch brothers?  What are they thinking?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:18 | 1510133 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Guess again...plenty of Dems have their snouts in the MIC trough.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:23 | 1510139 grey7beard
grey7beard's picture

>> plenty of Dems have their snouts in the MIC trough.

No argument on that one from me.  The Dems have plenty of blood on their hands.  It was just humorus to see someone say the Dems don't have anything like the tea party.  Well, the Reps don't have Jesse Jackson, so there.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:45 | 1510200 snowball777
snowball777's picture

The Dems have (well...had...we'll miss you Rusty!) progressives, but once everyone has been painted with the "Libruls" brush they somehow can't tell them apart.

I'd go to a Tea Party, but I've had my fill of being called a "Marxist" by people who don't even realize they're shills for the cavaliers of credit and a "Statist" because I don't believe anarchy will result in free markets and prosperity. They want simple answers to complex problems and thus are completely unwilling to be pragmatic about solutions. They're happier calling names than solving problems, just like the worst of the left.

Libertarians and Progressives agree on many things once the discussion veers away from tax structure, but things like civil liberties and police state spending reduction are always less important to them than what "other people" have to pay in taxes so no cooperation can ever take place. Kinda sad really, when you think that both the "Tax and Spend" and "Don't Tax and Spend More" parties could be wiped out by the people of Munchkinland, if only they could quit tilting at "the other guy's" windmills and being divisively conquered.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:18 | 1510529 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Snowball  -  i junked ya because you accuse anarchists (for real lawless anarchists see Govt) of seeking "simple" solutions to complex problems. You're a Statist, it's you that wants simple collective solutions, a single one-size-fits-all policy that represents nobody (you call that democracy?) 

the free market, like a free society, does not come up with simple solutions, it is multi-complex organism suiting each individual on a case by case basis. Look for example at Russia producing a single collectivist car, the dog crap Trabbant. The West produced 100ìs of vastly superior models to suit individuals

The Trabbant is what every Govt policy looks like, it's what your simplistic Statist mindset produces too in every facet of its operation. The dumbed down collectivism of committees instead of the brilliant different results of a 100 different motivated individuals

That's the key mate. We are individuals not some mass fuking collective. Freedom allows complexity on an individual case-by-case basis. The monopoly mass representing collectivist State kills individualism and freedom, dumbs it down to fit all but fitting no one and in fact it only suits the morons of the State

I also dont agree to be called an anarchist or know know anything i agree with progressives on. Another of your bland broad collectivist brush strokes, it's a bad Statist habit you've got into there... how could you (your State) represent me when your pigeon holes are so crude, inflexible and inaccurate?

Will your State survey me every month for my opinion? Freedom allows me to change my opinion every single day. Your State is looking mighty inflexible, freedom is faster, more complex and more sophisticated than your dull ideas about what freedom is or represents

Regards "no co-operation can take place" again complete tosh. Freedom allows for co-operation amongst individuals if and when required. Govt forms a Dept and you'll never cut it back when it's no longer neccessary. 

Your really have no clue at the comparisons you are drawing and how empty your claims are. Statists are perfectly entitled to set up their own systems under a freedom system nd live by your own colective rules BTW... and you'll be welcome to the 100% guranteed crap your collectivist centralised simplistic minds will come up with

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:23 | 1510572 Pay Day Today
Pay Day Today's picture

"We are individuals not some mass fuking collective."

You think a game of baseball works better with every batter and every pitcher making up his on rules as it suits them, as they go along? Time to dump the coaches and refs?

That driving to work in the mornings you can decide for yourself as an individual whether to use the right side of the road or the left side? Whichever you feel like?

Its funny you bring up the example of the US auto industry, because conformist collectively minded Japanese culture created auto companies which took over the world.

In the past the US was made great by a collective belief in American values and the American Dream.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 19:04 | 1510674 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Pay Day Today  -  paid your taxes today? Good zombie, bend over, comply dutifuly with the parasites behind the State.

Regards a game of baseball it is a collective team agreed. But it works because individuals decide (of their free will) to join the team and are enthused to do so. In a commercial enterprise, another colective of individuals, you train in your skill and agree to join and get paid to be productive.

But notice this is indivduals deciding to join. They also decide when they want to drift away. It is individual choice, not a collective decision

What part of Govt have you agreed to?

Regards coaches and Refs baseball is a sport (competition). It mimmicks real life, the free market and a free society. But it is a false construct so it needs rules and referees to determine fair play. Free markets and societies are bounded by natural laws and competition. Study a free market or a flock of birds and how they intereact. We behave in the exact same way, no Govt, referees or rules required

The Japanese Auto industry is not a colective, no good comopany is. It was based on indivudal engineering genius like Toyoda and Honda. Individuals drive all companies. 

Collectivist Japan is a social/cultural and hierachal stricture designed to passify the people and show 'respect' for that vacuous calamity called authroity or status. It has gone on too long and led to their demise. I beleive they are waking up to the falsehood of being blindly bowing and resèpectful to authority ...Funkinshambles could be the last straw for their dated heirachy

Individualism is how we are, how we take decisions and how we interact to buold relationships. We are not a collective, collectivism and Statism has never worked in history (just look at the complete and utter dysfunction of the loonatic US State)

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:24 | 1510583 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Thanks for proving my point for me.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:43 | 1510647 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Snowball -  what was your point?

Give me a single policy the US Govt has that represents you as an individual?

The State represents nothing but itself and its own interests. It is a monopoly of authroity in society the very enemy of freedom... that's precisely why it is now creeping into every part of human existence to abuse its authority. Democratic Govt is the exact same (monopoly) structure as a Totalitarian State ...your freedom is already so curbed my little Statist zombie you haven't a clue what freedom is any longer. Keep paying your taxes, keep paying your fines, keep complying, you're in an ever decreasing circle 

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 21:39 | 1511211 snowball777
snowball777's picture

So please do lay out how your 'zero' government would function for the masses...preferably as pertains to a modern, urban environment.

If the 'monopoly of authority' that allows for contract enforcement, common defense, etc is so anethmatic to your 'free spirited' ways, then how does your 'brave new world' function?

I assume that you'll recommend everything from sewage to roads to fire companies is privatized for a start?

Please tell us... great it is to be 'free' to extract justice from someone who has given you cancer by exploiting their 'freedom' to pollute. efficient it will be to have everyone defend their own property and enforce their own contracts (presumably also at the point of a gun, since you'll have no courts to which you can appeal for justice). wonderful it will be when only a small percentage of the populace has access to education and how well that will support economic growth. lovely the world will be when most people fall back on their perceived tribal affiliation.


You believe me to be a 'zombie' who hasn't thought these things through, but I have, at length. Some of my formative thoughts about the state from one of my favorite songs during my own "teen angst" phase:

all the people i know wanna be left alone
some people! i don't know?
they won't leave you alone
you gotta be just - be just like them
biggest gang i know they call the government
and a gang is a weapon that you trade your mind in for
you gotta be just - be just like them
the gang 
and the government are no different

 that makes me...1%

I believe you are a naive idealist who thinks he's stumbled on something profound, but hasn't actually thought through any of the ramifications of what he advocates. Unless you're a tax protestor writing to us from a "statist" prison, I don't see how we can take you seriously.

And can you point to a single successful anarchic society in the entirety of human history?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 22:45 | 1511333 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture


Great collection of the usual Statiist BS scare stories, well done zombie you'ev swallowed them all without blinking or thinking. Tell me are you more scared of criminals, rogue industrialists or open sewers than the US Govts vandalism of the US property market, bankruptcy of healthcare, bankrupt education system, 3 bloody murderous illegal wars, being robbed everyday of your lfie with tax, more taxes on your deathbed and robbed and hassled again by State Police, frisked like a terororist at airports, intruding on by Homeland Security... i could go on

See i'm just trying to get a grasp of your grip on reality rather than your constant stream of delusional fears and outer space liberal idealism. Have you ever weighed reality against your illusory thoughts? Thought anything through for more than 2 minutes betwen Pop Idol?

Your head is full of fantasy scare stories and a complete vacuum of actual hard reality. America is a State mismanaged bankrupt toxic mess everywhere you look.

And that's before we venture abroad at what your State does in your name, take 300-400,000 innocent civilian deaths in Iraq based on a big fat fuking lie to go to war with a country that did not threaten your country... you want 'justice' why don't you get off your delusional liberal arse and fight for their justice arsehole?'re scared of illusory criminals who are rarer than hens teeth but no mention of real people being murdered day in day out by your State psycopaths

you think you're not a zombie? live in LaLa Land mate, you need a shaking

And you want 'justice' from what orifice did you get the idea the State ever delivers you that? Look at the mass fraud perputrated by big banksters. Not a single fraudster in jail. Directors lose the shirt off their backs when a company goes bankrupt. GM, Sachs, Morgan et al get bailed out by taxpayers and with the money are paid bonuses.

How's your system working mate? Murder, economic bankruptcy and mahem, anarchy of a select group of societies scum protected by the protection racket that is the State.. you're more likely to be arrested or robbed by Police than the few criminals in society. You think you're free and being protected but you're being robbed (taxed) and strung up by hundreds of petty Laws. If you leave America you still have to report your finances to the US State like a good little zombie for 10 years after you've left

How would a free society and markets work... who cares, it could hardly be worse than the pile of crap you have now could it?

Give you an example of a free society that works? Me and millions of other people that have never needed the State in their lives, never needed a charlatan (politician) for any help at any point and wonders why i'm paying for this sack of bankrupt crap called Govt. 

What resource do you think the State ever provides that is better than the free market and private ebeterprise? Do you think the State could build better computers, cars, houses, roads? The State is shite at everything it does. There is not a single expert in Govt, not a single person with a brain bigger than a peanut. The State is totally ignorant, has no skills (all bought in from the private sector) and can't even organise their finances given a year knowing what's coming down the tubes

Face reality zombie, look around, not your delusional ideaistic dreamwolrd the State has put betwen you ears... tell me, anything in the history of the State it is good at?   

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 22:55 | 1511398 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You're still talking about me and the status quo, but I haven't heard a peep on your vision beyond "who cares, it could hardly be worse...".

Epic fail.

You have it in your head that computers and roads weren't made with the assistance of the state, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a single industry that hasn't received explicit support from same at some point in history.

"Me and millions of other people that have never needed the State in their lives..." Bullshit, skippy. Unless you've never had a job and have been living in a cave on grubs and berries, you are straight-up fooling yourself, if you think you aren't sucking at the teat at least indirectly. If you think that never having used foodstamps or collected UE makes you "independent of the state" you're dumber than a box of rocks.

I started out literally homeless and have made a very comfortable life for myself; that doesn't make "the system" justifiable, nor do I excuse the atrocities performed by the state in my name, but it does raise the bar for any proposed replacement, of which you've proposed precisely ZERO.

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 05:02 | 1511740 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture


You say freedom is my "zero" alternative offering to your Statist, monopolist, centralist, elitest approach. Your monopoly system is failing, bankrupt, rotten and corrupt to the core and warmongering. Can't think of anything worse nor anything that couldn't improve on the results of your system  

Is self-government, by individuals, a zero? 

A free society where each individual retains their power (zero Govt) and earned wealth (zero tax) rather than theoretically giving it to the State monopoly apperatus as well as a slice of their income (which the State determines, not you). 

If you want to see a free society working look outside your window at what it's based on: nature. There are thousands of organisms outside interacting acting on an individual decision-making basis but interacting and getting along just fine. We humans came from nature and we have the same inbuilt rules on how to get along.

There is no Govt in nature

Govt is a fabricated construct, a false man-made one built on idealism, lies and the financial fraud it can tax you in return for protection. The only thing the State does is protect it's own vacuous interests at the expense of society.

If you compare it's current state of bankruptcy, incompetence, corruption and self-serving parasitical behaviour patterns you are left with the conclusion it is a cancer (in society). As we see right across Europe and America it will feed on its host to the point of killing its host and itself. That's how fucking dumb Govt is... very un-natural

Nature like man and free markets are self-regulating. They do not need a Govt. They work best not as a collective but the reality we are all individuals and find our own paths, make our own decisions which is freedom.

You want to hand over control of the direction of society, and yourself, to elected muppets. Why are you still in nappies your want to be led, need to be directed, to follow a single one-size-fits-all policy rather than make your own individual decisions and others make their own?   

You yearn for a system rather than no system. You yearn for rules to be put in place of my no rules freedom. Have you ever studied if either central systems ever work or rules produce good rather than chaos?? 

Your simplistic idealism and belief in systems and rules suggest you've not progressed as an adult much since the time you were parented. You're the zombies in The Matrix sucking on the teet, believing in a non-reality fantasy rather than wanting to live your adult life and take responsibility. You believe in the liberal/leftie/fascist collective 'State does good' and given up the individuality of believing in yourself. You want a teet

Now go outside and watch nature, see how individuals go about their day making their own decisions, interacting and thousands of organisms living and wonder how nature does it without a centralised monopolised authority that's going bankrupt and rotting as you sing its praises

Nature/freedom versus Govt/monopolist.. and the Winning System is?

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 05:11 | 1511824 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Your discussion, IMO, boils down to "how much government"? If Gov would tax everybody by 20% and spend only this 20%, how many percentage points would your opinion differ?

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:00 | 1512320 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Yes, self-government by individuals is "no plan" and therefore zero. You can believe that 'freedom' means returning to the trees and subjecting yourself to might makes right, but Ayn's kool-aid is best left in books.

Your analogy to nature is laughable in that nature is entirely composed of collective ecosystems which are so tightly interdependent that the collapse of one can lead to the demise of all. Don't believe me? Ask a dinosaur. You can't? Why is that? The very same thing is true of economies...there are no self-sufficient economies on planet earth. None. You can laud nature's efficiency, it is quite marvelous, but that efficiency is ruthless and you're glossing over some of the messy details about violence, extinction, famine and pestilence. Certainly not the world to which most of us with sentience would willingly aspire. I don't "yearn for a system" are inescapable in politics, economics, and nature.

As for the Matrix, I find it hilarious that the first thing these characters do after waking is join a paramilitary crusade and huddle together for protection from the machines.

Will you still have the concept of money in your post-government world? Hint: also a "fabricated construct" as any peak oiler can inform you.

Will you still have the concept of justice in your post-government world? Hint: also a "fabricated construct" not found in nature.

When you get done humping that strawman to appease yourself, we can talk. Until then, you're just another antithete who would rather call names than solve problems, as per my original post above.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:33 | 1510162 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Silly me.  I thought history was still a required subject at your junior high.  Perhaps you were out sniffing glue when they covered:

World War I - Wilson

World War II - FDR

Vietnam - Kennedy/Johnson

Korea - Truman

Wars started on Republican watch have been brief, and relatively successful, except for the War of Northern Agression.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:02 | 1510240 snowball777
snowball777's picture

You can put Vietnam on Ike, a Republican, and we can't help but notice you failed to mention a certain engagement near the Euphrates that still hasn't quite wrapped up.

Guess you picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue too.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:58 | 1510344 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

"Rah! Rah!"

"Our crook are better than your crooks!"

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:35 | 1510377 snowball777
snowball777's picture


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:40 | 1510464 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Well Raygun did start a short war, Granada, and would any of the rightwing nuts like to explain the point of that one to me because I really have always wanted to know? 

As to Wilson and WWI, had you any in depth knowledge of history, he was a pacifist that kept us OUT of WWI in 1914, 15, 16, and not till German attacks on our shipping and the loss of the Lusitania with over one thousand dead civilians in May 1917 did he get us into that war, once in we ended it within a year of arrival in France in strength. 

You really going to blame WWII on FDR?  He kept us out of WWII in 1937 when the Sino-Japanese war was raging in Asia, and out of Europe in 1939, 40, and 41 after Hitler attacked Poland (and everyone else). 

Iraq part one was BushCo one, Iraq part two was BushCo two, a decade or so of nasty undeclared war in Latin America trying to topple leftists in Nicaragua using the most fascist righties on the planet at the time in El Salvador,  all neocon, even our Operation Storm-Army in the former Yugoslavia started in 1990 under BushCo I. 

Our worst and most tragic war ever to date is still the Civil War, who led us into that one?  Lincoln, a republican. 

The republican McKinley got us into the Spanish American War. 

Our involvement in Southeast Asia started in 1960 under Ike, a republican, Kennedy would have got us out of that mess by 1964 had he not been killed, and while LBJ got things going there Nixon carried it on for another 5 years even after we all knew the war was unwinnable. 

One can argue that the Mexican-American war was Polk's little party and that technically he was a democrat, but in 1836 the party system was splintered, there were still Whigs around, republicans were just forming, the democrats had more factions than the US had states, and there were at least a dozen minor parties around.  What we today call democrats and republicans did not really exist then, but if we used today's standards you would see that back then the republican party was the liberal progressive party of the northeast while the democrats were the farm types that had the fire and zeal of regressive politics and religion.  They switched roles post reconstruction.

Fascist neocon trolls will always use rabid partisan arguments that are patently false on their face to incite division between people who would otherwise be able to get along even if we do not always agree on the best way forward, it is destroying the USA, you would say it already has if you were old enough to remember what a great place this used to be and is no more


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:19 | 1510277 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Repubs just crapped all over the constitution with their new domestic ISP spy bill that records everything you do online.

TPers sleeping?

We are now guilty until proven innocent.

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:50 | 1512558 snowball777
snowball777's picture

Citizen #442734562 sure spends a lot of time talking to that Tor server...


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:11 | 1510114 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

As I understand it, Congress is raising the limit. I'm a Libertarian myself, and we've never raised the debt ceiling, either when the Congress or the WH was in our power. Maybe it's just about time...

But we Libertarians are absolute bastards about wanting the truth out there, so the better question would be how many times a D-controlled Congress rasied the limit, how many times a R-controlled Congress raised it, and how many times a split Congress raised it? Care to search that deeply? I don't, because I'm in agreement that they are all owned.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:25 | 1510145's picture

Republican presidents raised the limit 49 times, Democrat persidents raised it 29 times.

Any chance we can we get over this myth that Republicans are more fiscally repsonsible? The reality is both parties are owned by their corporate masters.


Check your premises. What if the Republican administrations simply signed off on smaller debt increases 49 times and the Democrats signed off on larger debt increases 29 times?

If you wish to prove that Democrats are more fiscally responsible than Republicans then you must present a more detailed accounting of the various instances of debt ceiling increase.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:38 | 1510182 css1971
css1971's picture

It's an exponential curve, the percentage increases are the same.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:50 | 1510208's picture

You're kidding, right?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:33 | 1510373 Pico
Pico's picture

No he's not kidding, he's right on the money. It's simple math  1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 ... when you plot that with a linear y axis it looks as if the right side of the x axis  is accelerating way faster than the left when in fact the same doubling is going on all along.  if you ploted it with a log Y scale you'd see it was linear.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:36 | 1510378 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

Or in trader's terms, it's going parabolic.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:45 | 1510390's picture

It's simple math 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 ...


What relationship do those numbers have with the debt increase statistics of which we are speaking? It's just a series of numbers that create a chart pattern of your choosing with no bearing on the historical data in question.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:20 | 1510511 css1971
css1971's picture

Any regular percentage increase is exponential.

1, 2, 4, 8, is simply a 100% increase. The debt has grown at something like 9% per year. Both are exponential. Both are just a percentage increase.

The chart is clearly exponential, that means the percentage increase is the same for all presidents; republican, or democrat. i.e. it's irrelevant who you vote for, they all work for the same boss.


Here, watch this:

Oh, and 9% says the debt will double every 8 years. I'll bet the stock market also doubles every 8 years.


Lets see...^GSPC&t=my&l=off&z=l&q=l&c=

S&P in 1980 is about 120 looking at the chart.

S&P in 1988 is about 250. Yup...


Looks about 9% to me. Who says investing is difficult?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 21:08 | 1511016's picture

You seem to be saying that either party is equally likely to raise the debt limit. I agree with that. I'm saying that if one looks at actual history over a given period of time that the debt ceiling has likely not been raised at exactly the same rate year after year and depending on the time period in question one party willl have held power longer than the other party.

And of course they all work for the same boss. But that doesn't change the fact that if you crunched the numbers for a given time period rises in the debt ceiling would not break out 50-50 between Democrats and Republicans dollar for dollar and year after year.

It makes no difference to me how the numbers work out. One side will be a little more "responsible" than the other depending on what numbers you crunch and how you crunch them.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:40 | 1510187 espirit
espirit's picture

Republicant's too divided.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:12 | 1510228 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Rationalize it anyway you must, but all I am saying is the Republicans and all their "we are the fiscally responsible party" BS doesn't seem to add up in reality. Look at the years 2000 - 2006. We had a Repub Prez AND both houses of congress (even veto-proof for some if not all of those years). Yet the debt ceiling was raised.

Keep searching for a rationale that make you feel good if you're a Repub, or recovering one.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:01 | 1510461 snowball777
snowball777's picture Table 7-3


1940 - 49

1941 - 65

1942 - 125

1943 - 210

1944 - 260

1945 - 300

1946 - 275

--- 560% (WWII was expensive...)

1954 - 281

1955 - 278

1956 - 275

1958 - 288

1959 - 295

1960 - 293

1961 - 298

--- 8.3% (I like Ike)

1962 - 308

1962 - 305

1962 - 300

1963 - 307

1964 - 324

1965 - 328

1966 - 330

1967 - 336

1967 - 358

1967 - 365

1969 - 377

--- (26.5%...smells like...well it's not victory...)

1970 - 395

1971 - 430

1972 - 450

1972 - 465

1973 - 475

1974 - 495

1975 - 577

1975 - 595

1976 - 627

1976 - 636

1976 - 682

1976 - 700

--- (85.6%...Tricky...)

1977 - 752

1978 - 798

1979 - 830

1979 - 879

1980 - 925

1980 - 935

--- (33.5% for the peanut farmer)

1981 - 985

1981 - 1000

1981 - 1079

1982 - 1143

1982 - 1290

1983 - 1389

1984 - 1520

1984 - 1573

1984 - 1823

1984 - 1903

1985 - 2111

1986 - 2300

1987 - 2320

1987 - 2352

1987 - 2800

1989 - 2870

1989 - 3122

1990 - 3195

1990 - 3230

1990 - 4145

--- (443%...Mr. Reagan: tear down this country)

1993 - 4370

1993 - 4900

1996 - 5500

1997 - 5950

--- (43.5%...just not trying, Bill)

2002 - 6400

2003 - 7384

2004 - 8184

2006 - 8965

--- (50.6% for the C student)


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 18:24 | 1510564 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

If you wish to prove that Democrats are more fiscally responsible than Republicans then you must present a more detailed accounting of the various instances of debt ceiling increase?


Or you could simply note that the last time the budget was balanced was under Clinton. 

It should be noted that back when we used to pass actual budgets for fiscal years it was the prior year that the budget was formed and credit or blame for surplus or deficit should go to the one who was in charge in that year, example, technically the budget was in surplus for 1998,99,2000, and 2001, all of these surplus budgets are credited to Clinton because he was president when those budgets were drawn up in 97,98,99, and 00.

Prior to those surpluses you have to go all the way back to 1969 to find a surplus budget, which was the final budget of the LBJ presidency drawn up in 1968.  So, it is pretty obvious that DC is not a major center for fiscal rectitude, but any and all responsible spending/taxing in the modern era has been at the hands of democrats.  Also, the most spectacularly unbalanced budgets were Reagan BushCo budgets, those three presidents to this day have racked up about 75% of all debt of this nation, and a lot of what deficits Obama has been stuck with is due to commitments Shrub made to bankers in 2008.  Not meant to be an excuse, I don't like the guy either, after all he could have just demanded that all the fraudulent welfare gifts to the wealthy made under the previous administration be returned to the treasury, we would be in surplus for the next 5 years if they were returned.


Mon, 08/01/2011 - 10:14 | 1512398's picture

Or you could simply note that the last time the budget was balanced was under Clinton. 


Unfunded entitlements not on budget swelled under Clinton. Try again.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:29 | 1510168 CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

History Lesson on socialist Presidents.  


Step One look at this "real time" estimation of US national debt and pay close attention to the Unfunded Liabilities on the very bottom.

Step two write down the total amount due for the Prescription drug Benefit, also noting it's value as compared to Soc. Sec. unfunded liabilities.

Step three -- remember or look up who signed the presrciption drug benift into law.  was the president republican, was the conress republican.  Who sttod arounf the Predident eager to get one of the many signature pens (to had out to elite friends and lobbyists.) 

So who are the socialists?  The Dems? Obama? -- yeah he's certainly trying, but going by the most recent major rape of tax payers via unfunded liabilities by a recent president, looks like George W. Bush was bigger most sucessful socialist to me.


Ron Paul 2012


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 16:37 | 1510381 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

No matter, someone needs to put an end to this Ponzi borrowing that is about to bankrupt the greatest country the world has ever seen .... fail?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:55 | 1510066 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Any bill originating in the senate is a non-starter as the republicans will not acques. Anyone who thought the Alaska Murkowski battle was insignificant I will tell you Joe miller would have been better than Murkowski and snowe etal who can't seem to get the idea of fiscal conservatism.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:55 | 1510068 gwar5
gwar5's picture



And, the the top chart is roughly inversely proportional to our freedoms.

2006 = $8.2 Trillion debt ceiling limit.  2011 = $16.7 Trillion debt ceiling limt. 

Whatever the final figure, no doubt it's going to be more than double the total debt, in just 5 years.

One World government is on schedule to vanquish it's main rival. 

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:56 | 1510071 Goatboy
Goatboy's picture

High taxes for rich and corporations (~1945-~1980) seemed to alleviate this problem.

But productivity is much higher now with even higher potential thus raising taxes could result in losing control over social life and order as we know it. Current economy existentially relies on scarcity and "there is no free lunch" dogma. Whole possible resolution goes beyond numbers and demands fundamental changes. 50 people produce bread or cars for 10.000 other people. Thus more and more people are pushed in service sector practically forced to imagine things no one needs, just in order to justify "no work, no food". It has nothing to do with economy but everything with current social contract and control. Anyone agrees?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:32 | 1510164 Heroic Couplet
Heroic Couplet's picture

Agree for cars: Read ~ 8 years ago online that producing a car, assembly line, costs only $800. The rest is benefits for the auto workers. About the same time, the Harvard Business Review, print edition, stated that in South Africa, it's less costly to build Mercedes by hand than it is to turn on the switch for the electricity for the assembly line.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:33 | 1510167's picture

Workers are not cattle. They must adapt to changes in the market just as employers do. There's lots of necessary work out there to perform. There are plenty of people to do that work. Now government needs to get out of the way and let folks get to work.

Instead, government regulations prevent the average guy and his brother-in-law from tossing a mower and some tools in the back of a truck and going into the landscaping business. Taxes, licensing, fees and other regulations prevent regular folks from picking up a shovel and doing the work they are willing and able to do in order to take care of themselves.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 15:01 | 1510237 wisefool
wisefool's picture

my #1 consipiracy theory right now has to do with big agra. I am convinced they have developed a variety of lawn grass that can outcompete other weeds and grows at rate such that grass would only need to be cut once per year. Do you know how many millions of people that would put out of work? Or how much energy,water, and emmisions could be saved?

Mon, 08/01/2011 - 18:33 | 1514655 schizo321437
schizo321437's picture


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:56 | 1510073 Astute Investor
Astute Investor's picture

Relax, Leo just wrote that deficits don't matter.....

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:58 | 1510076 Sunshine n Lollipops
Sunshine n Lollipops's picture

That debt limit chart looks like the first stage of a roller coaster ride. And we all know what comes next. 

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 13:59 | 1510079 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Wait until you see that chart with market interest rates.  They default now, or they default in a few months.  Who gifs mit der big rat's patootie?

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:16 | 1510089 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Uber Directiv Fur Amerikaners

Barack Obama, Timmy Geitner, and Benny the Bernank

1.01: All American fortwith shall partake of the new Federal Reserve Exponent Lending Program (ELP);

1.02: All American families shall purchase at least 1 home;

1.02.1: Those who do not qualify for loans will be given one anyway Those who cannot pay their loans will be granted emergency mortgage payment coupons

1.03: All Americans with at least one child, or otherwise who breathe shall have a vacation home as part of Michelle Obama's Healthier America Program;

1.03.1: Those who do not qualify for loans will be given one anyway

1.03.2: Those who cannot pay their loans will be granted emergency mortgage payment coupons

1.04: All Americans with more than 1 child shall have an additional vacation home for each 2 children, and those with more than 3 children shall have yet an additional vacation home for each 1 child above 3 children.

1.04.1: Those who do not qualify for loans will be given one anyway

1.04.1: Those who cannot pay their loans will be granted emergency mortgage payment coupons

1.05: Children deserve to have what they want. If a child wants something, parent shall purchase it.

1.05.1: Those who cannot afford the item shall be granted credit to purchase it. Those who do not qualify for loans will be given one anyway Those who cannot pay their loans will be granted emergency loan payment coupons

1.06: Diktated this August 2nd, year of Lord Obama 50 (+/- any offsets due to actual birth certificate numbers)

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:17 | 1510131 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture


So POTUS carries around multiple passports, birth certificates, theories of his origin up to and including divine intervention.  He might be god, the anti-christ, or the Manchurian Candidate, so what's your point?  ;)

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:39 | 1510184 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Es ist nur political humor, dumbkopf! ;)

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 17:23 | 1510442 Iam_Silverman
Iam_Silverman's picture

Now Joe, take it easy on the ol' KaiserHoff.  I do believe he may still be using IE3, and the Sarcasm Font doesn't show in older browsers.  If you must be snarky, tell him how to upgrade and then use compatibility mode for those sites he may still need IE3 for....

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:04 | 1510090 jmc8888
jmc8888's picture

That 2nd graph should be cut in half...roughly at 1980

The left represents (more or less) debt that fought a war.  (and should have had a much deeper dropoff if not for the bankster war known as Vietnam)...well WWII was a bankster war too..but one that started somewhere else.

The right side represent debt mostly just to placate the bankster class.



Also the 1st graph should be filtered to see what it is vs. inflation.  With two lines.  One the *official*, the other the *official*, and hell probably a 3rd, which would be the inflation rate that most likely is above even that 2nd one.  But I guess just the two would do. 

But none of that matters really, since it's a line that reprsents fraud via debt that we have agreed to pay off.

....until we come to our senses, hopefully before the greatest depression (or new dark age) starts in earnest.


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:05 | 1510093 dogismyth
dogismyth's picture

I guess we're suppose to ignore the "noise" and get on with it.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:08 | 1510103 ThirdCoastSurfer
ThirdCoastSurfer's picture

Debt is analogous to obesity and Type II diabetes.  

You have chosen not to lose any weight in the short term and continue to rationalize that you will lose it in the long term but the damage to your (economic) health will continue to deteriorate as you struggle to wonder why you can no longer run and get increasingly winded just by walking.   

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:53 | 1510215 Sledge
Sledge's picture



Long gone are the days when you could go back to the old country and see robust, healthy people leading simpler lives. Debt (usury) marches steadfastly on and now has entangled the whole world in its tentacles. Now everyone's on the debt teat. Diseases of "modern" society have increased in lockstep with debt.

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:11 | 1510109 supersajin
supersajin's picture

I want to see what happens in 2012 when we have a 1%GDP or worse, another recession.  We may be having this conversation again sooner than most people think!

Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:11 | 1510111 ComeAndTakeIt
ComeAndTakeIt's picture


Sun, 07/31/2011 - 14:16 | 1510126 glenlloyd
glenlloyd's picture

Let's see sir, you want ANOTHER credit line increase? Sir, I think perhaps you have a spending problem that needs to be addressed. It would actually be better if I decreased your available credit and asked you to pay down some of that debt you keep rolling over.

Sir, do you actually have any way of making a payment on anything more than the interest?

Well....I'm sorry, but we aren't able to extend you any more credit

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