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Finns Prepare For Euro's End: "Deeply Suspicious" of EU's 'Gang of Four'

Tyler Durden's picture


While not advocating the break-up of the Euro-zone, Finland's foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja told the Daily Telegraph this evening that "it is only a matter of time". In a somewhat stunning show of truthiness, perhaps the first cracks in Europe's Nash Equilibrium are starting to show through following Monti's 'threats', Draghi's 'promises', and Merkel's 'well, nothings'. The Finn continues, via Reuters, "Either the south or the north will break away because this currency strait-jacket is causing misery for millions and destroying Europe's future."

Finland, which has a veto that could be used to block any new bailout measures, has already stirred the pot unilaterally by demanding collateral from Greece and Spain, is quite clear in its view that Europe "is a total catastrophe" but adds that no-one wants to be first to get out of the Euro and take all the blame.

Insisting that the break-up of the Euro does not mean the end of the European Union, Tuomioja believes "it could make the EU function better," but comments that he is deeply suspicious of the 'gang of four' - which includes Draghi - with regard his promises (especially ESM seniority) adding that he "does not trust these people."


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Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:06 | 2713329 Neethgie
Neethgie's picture

 the euro is finnished

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:08 | 2713330 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Will the Euro continue much longer? Nor way!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:15 | 2713338 JoeSexPack
JoeSexPack's picture

First one out is like South Carolina in 1860.



Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:48 | 2713492 anonum
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As a rebound to the above-quoted Tuomioja; Finnish MSM spat out huge headlines this morning quoting Stubb (Finnish foreign trade minister, and government PM party representative) that "Finland's government is 100% committed to supporting the euro" and "Tuomioja's views do not represent the Finnish government views" ... ie. official denial of Tuomioja's views, which was to be expected.


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:13 | 2713542 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Indeed, there must have been phones exploding in Helsinki because the Finns went into full damage control mode almost immediatley. The CNBS merry-go-round ticker, which is running 9 headlines currently, has dedicated three of them to pro EU stories: Merkel vows to save €, (bare)backs ECB efforts; Finnland's Stubbs tells CNBC "100% committed to Euro" (had to make sure the biz channels get the word); Euro zone trade surplus for June climbs to record high €14,9 billion. All fucking fluff, and I say all because I'm confident ZH is going to dig into that surplus story and find the manipulation.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:51 | 2713600 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

It's time to raise the Bonnie Blue Flag!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:52 | 2714257 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Europe is 1860's South Carolina ? Not even close.  A Common Market without a Common Currency will let Europe out of the Euro strait jacket.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:58 | 2713440 Haager
Haager's picture

Speaking of Norway: I wonder how much currency (AUD,SEK,NOK,NZD) THEY continue to sell before the effect reverses.


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:40 | 2713452 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Ya but, European on me and telling me its raining!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:56 | 2713723 phalfa5
phalfa5's picture

Oh those crazy Finns, always on the edge.  2800 years ago, the Finns invented the toilet seat.  However, 300 years later it was none other than the Norwegians that put a hole in it...

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:09 | 2713333 euphoria
euphoria's picture

I downvoted you for being so unbelievably lame.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:12 | 2713335 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Did ya? Den Mark my words, you'll get yer comeuppance-- and that right soon. If I see you in the streets, I'll grab the nearest rock and estonia!!!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:34 | 2713355 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Be a bit more sweet tish

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:09 | 2713384 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

I slander whoever deserves it.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:04 | 2713468 Gavrikon
Gavrikon's picture

Is this really Ger-man(e) to the discussion?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:02 | 2713535 SmallerGovNow2
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Hey Gav, it's SmallerGovNow from the MW site which is now closed as you may know.  Good to see you...

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:23 | 2713567 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

If they wanted to beat you up, they've got the Lats to do it.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:18 | 2713476 Neethgie
Neethgie's picture

sounds like someone missed his breakfast, you must be hungary

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:13 | 2713776 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Hungary for some Turkey and Chile served on the finest China. That's all for me folks!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:20 | 2713795 Sven Sikztu
Sven Sikztu's picture

use a napkin to avoid greece stains

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:37 | 2713449 persu
persu's picture

As a little nuance. Finland has a trade deficit with EZ and current account is barely positive. That is, trade benefit disappeared in 2007 and funding base to re-circulate surplus is nil.
Plus economynhas been hollowed out, first Nokia led electronicsncluster moved to Asia, Paper industry has been in a decade long perma-crisis and engineering is super cyclical. Rovia, biofuels etc just does not make it up. But everybody wants to have a mortgage, banks give a loan to any amount someone invents on application.

Some serious cost and benefit calculation is needed. Greece 2 barely got passed, for September we expect Greece 3. Will be interesting.

Soini's eurosceptics are again increasing their support in polls. Although they are not in government, he has moved the whole political spectrum. Major parties, mainly social democrates, are worried as their supporters moved behind Soini in previous elections. Now center party is profiling increasingly as eurosceptic. So maybe circa 50-60% of parties are sceptic or pretend to be tough by claimining collateral.

I still do not believe Finalnd would leave EZ unless we do not get understanding in other areas such as farming north of polar circle.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:50 | 2713458 agent default
agent default's picture

SNB to follow shortly.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:16 | 2713620 Frozen IcQb
Frozen IcQb's picture

A euro collapse would also bring down European banks (including some in the US). This will not be allowed to happen. The Fed, the  ECB , BOE et al will step in to prevent its demise. They will print and swap to infinity or to the next manufactured war (whichever comes first) if they have to.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 12:44 | 2714490 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

How do you define "euro collapse"? Is the Euro falling to parity with the dollar a collapse? I think that is likely to occur, since Europe is so much less competitive than the USA (38 hour work weeks, 4 weeks paid vacation, worse population demographics, etc).

There doesn't need to be printing to infinity in order to sustain the Eurozone, because a massive depression can be managed and encouraged by collectivist intervention as has been going on-- FDR's New Deal in the 1930s USA is an example of over a decade of it.

The countries will be subject to austerity to minimize debasement necessary, while sovereign defaults will be prevented with debasement.

What bothers me is this unspecific idea of infinity printing. That isn't what is happening nor going to happen. You can read some of my other comments for more details.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:27 | 2717741 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

competitive? have a look at the trade balances, first

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:23 | 2713657 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Suspicious, bitcious!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:20 | 2714637 Zeilschip
Zeilschip's picture

The Euro is breaking up? Swede!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 22:08 | 2715987 ammo42
ammo42's picture

the euro is finnished

Only after having been suomized.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:09 | 2713331 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

no-one wants to be first to get out of the Euro and take all the blame

Only pussies say that. Man the fuck up and do it. And take all the blame.. from who? From the scum running the EU?? Big fucking deal! Finland defeated the Soviet Union and now they are afraid of a bunch of scumbag bureaucrats??? Is he fucking serious??? Fire his ass now and appoint someone with fucking balls for God's sake! This guy is an insult to Finish history and pride!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:19 | 2713344 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

"Finland defeated the Soviet Union"


This statement needs some context.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:00 | 2713376 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Well they ``lost`` ultimately but still kicked some serious butts... Look it up... The Winter War...

It would be like if Iraq had killed 5-6 times more US soldiers than they lost...

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:37 | 2713358 Joe A
Joe A's picture

When there were the referenda on the European constitution in 2004, the Dutch and French voters voted against. France then got the glory and the Netherlands got the blame. The latter was then ostrichized for a while in the EU. Finland being a small country would be the easy scapegoat if they would pull out. Never the big countries get the blame. Much at stake here.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:05 | 2713368 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

This is utter nonsense and you are mixing up an EU issue with an EZ issue where this Finn is very careful not to do so. btw the word is ostracized.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:06 | 2713383 Nozza
Nozza's picture

lol - Joe A really did mean ostrichized and not ostracized. I think. Either way the Euro is finnished ;)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:10 | 2713387 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

based on what reasoning? this currency war is young. they usually last a decade. and fiat currencies often last much longer, until they are spent.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:08 | 2713540 lewy14
lewy14's picture

Problem is that the Euro is designed to be unspendable. And I do mean problem.

The Euro architects knew that debasement and inflation was an irresistable force.

So they went forth and designed the Euro as an immovable object

So veddy, veddy clever of them.

Tension then becomes a singularity. Which we're witnessing.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:53 | 2713604 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I think - and this is speculation - that eventually the EUR will be spent, for political and "mercantilistic" goals. but yes, from a design perspective it was meant to shelter it's zone from the very currency war we are experiencing. the banks would love to profit from the sheer churn that 17 currencies would create by competitive deleveraging, though meanwhile the industry here would have to shift to the East, generating even more churn and movements that would make many financial interests happy.

The political "tug of war" is only about the relative speed. And the true numéraire for the EUR is gold.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 16:40 | 2715309 lewy14
lewy14's picture

The industry shifts to the east or the east shifts to the industry. Meaning, take your pick of deleveragings, external or internal.

IMO you're wrong about financial interests but in any case, the political interests love the Euro because it creates for them the exegent circumstances to obliterate democratic democratic consent. 

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:26 | 2713404 FinalCollapse
FinalCollapse's picture

So what 'ostrichized' means? Bury the head in the sand and bend over?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:46 | 2713426 Bohm Squad
Bohm Squad's picture

No.  It means bend over and then bury your head in the sand; it's a subtle, but important, distinction.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:43 | 2713364 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Well, the statement starts with "While not advocating the break-up...", then correctly identifies the guy as the foreign minister talking with a British Newspaper (and they are all addicted to EUR break-up stories, not only the notorious AEP's Telegraph, they sell).

Fact is, if Finnland gets out, could they float their currency? Or would they have to find a peg or a floor? That's the logic of a currency war like we are in since two years.

The "afraid of a bunch of bureaucrats" is just nonsense, the Finns are not afraid, they are just frustrated.

And the "no-one wants to be the first ... and take all the blame" is of course nonsense, too. What are the options?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:34 | 2713415 Marco
Marco's picture

Or they could just devalue enough to remain wage competetive and no more ... the northern countries are now being forced to be super-competetive and maintain a trade surplus ... for the benefit of the southern states and I'm sure purely coincidentally for the US as well.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:39 | 2713419 d_taco
d_taco's picture

Absolutely Right

The Dutch guilder was always pegged to the DMark. No free currency. And if the Spain or Italy devaluate the Dutch pension funds take a big hit. The whole bailout thing is to save the debt holders and has little to do with saving the Euro.

The big question is why does zerohedge continually ignoring the situation in the UK. In Scotland there are more people in favor of a break up the UK than there are in the Netherlands.

The anti Europe party PVV  is losing in the Dutch Polls and the pro Europe party D66 (the party with the biggest number youth members) is gaining. The big winners, the former communist SP are absolutely not against the Euro nor against Europe. But the ZeroHedge spin doctors will portray them as anti Europe like they did with the Greece far left parties. The socialist elite are absolutely not looking for a break up. The clear trend is that the socialist are winning in more countries. The socialist are the most trans-Europe organized group since 1847. If you like it or not, we will see in the end a turn to a more socialistic Europe rather than a break up. The clear turn to left will be explained by the UK Bankers (= Zerohedge) as a request for breakup.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:52 | 2713433 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

This says all that needs to be said about the Euro experiment.

The big winners, the former (hah!) communist SP are absolutely not against the Euro nor against Europe.



Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:47 | 2713494 GCT
GCT's picture

+1 Ghordius.   The first out if it is a Northern country will be punished for being first by the EU politicians and markets.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:26 | 2713403 Marco
Marco's picture

For what? To make some American libertarians living off Saudi wellfare happy? There is no upside ... the small decrease in trade surplus to the southern states is not worth getting kicked out of the common market for. Let the collapse come at it's own pace.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:31 | 2713511 slackrabbit
slackrabbit's picture

I'll take the blame.
Yes, it was me and I'd do it again!
Now f**k off!


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:54 | 2713605 Inthemix96
Inthemix96's picture


I could not agree more, but lend me you're ear.  My business, and it is a small enterprise (I like it that way, less hassle), I have to work with a local government over here in the UK, namely a county council called North Tyneside.  Now bear in mind here folks Me and my staff are fully conversed in what we do, I have been opperating my firm for a very long time.

One of my contracts stipulates that:-

minimum, £20 million pounds public liabilty insurance, fully trained workforce in both health and safety, and working at hight regulations, fully equiped saftey wear equipment including steel toed boots, high visabilty jackets, and eye protection.

On top of this, every job I undertake needs a signed off risk assesment from whomever is in charge on any given day, and continal updates to the local or superior council official.

Does this sound like I may come into contact with something nefarious?  Heres the kicker.  We clean fucking windows, that is what we do, nothing more nothing less.

So to cut to the chase, if I had the time, or the gall left at the end of the day, I would personally wipe out all regulations, and then at least 90% of the fuckers who stop me doing my bastard job, and then maybe, we could get some fucking work done.  The EU is destroying us by just being in the fucking way.  Any new rule or regs, UK INC, is the first stupid country to buy into it.  I have had over twenty years watching this fucker get worse and worse, more rules, less freedom to do my job.

Sorry for the rant, but this is what its like if you have the temerity to own your own business here in gestapo land.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:31 | 2713838 Sven Sikztu
Sven Sikztu's picture

welcome to Obongo's America sir! not that Romney will reign in the hyper regulatory state either... f*ck the cancer of these bureaucrats!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:25 | 2714658 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

As much as I share your angst, how do you beat collectivism by wishing for a collective solution? You feed the beast by waiting for national leader to help. The solution is when the individuals have the balls to walk away. Finns could migrate back to the countryside and refuse to work in the system. Or migrate to third world countries that aren't yet overloaded with regulations and government.

But westerners don't want to "just do it" on an individual basis. They want someone else to do it for them. The John Wayne types would just take an individual action and be done with it. Leave the collectivists swimming in their cesspool.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:19 | 2713342 TumblingDice
TumblingDice's picture

It was never alive to begin with. A completely artificial currency can continue to operate well past its death.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:20 | 2713347 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

I would want to be known as the smart Country that pulled the plug. Go ugly early, avoid the rush.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:30 | 2713348 nlude80
nlude80's picture

I keep on reading headlines about how markets "surged" on Merkel backing up Draghi and saying Germany would do "everything they can" to save the Euro.  I don't know about Merkel, but generally the only time I use that line is when someone asks me to do something that I know can't be done or can't be done in the timeframe they would like.  For example, at work if I tell someone that "I will do everything I can," it means: What you are asking is unreasonable, and I will do my best within reason and what I am comfortable with, but it probably isn't going to happen


I read those headlines as her basically saying: "We aren't willing or able to do what it takes, but we will do what we can."  But hey, what do I know?  Rally on!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:36 | 2713357 nlude80
nlude80's picture

From CNBC:    "European markets are set to extend their gains on Friday after German Chancellor Angela Merkel echoed European Central Bank (ECB) President Mario Draghi’s sentiment to do “whatever it takes” to save the euro zone."

Because apparently CNBC and every other financial media outlet can't distinguish the difference between the phrases "Whatever it takes" and "Everything we can."   Or perhaps they just feel it is in the bankers best interest to pretent they mean the same thing.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:18 | 2713557 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

appreciate your analysis I think you nailed it.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 03:52 | 2716214 nlude80
nlude80's picture

Thank you GH. It seems obvious to us what she was saying, but maybe we are just crazy.....because every news outlet is using the same headlines. It is truly amazing and frustrating to watch the constant manipulation and twisting of Merkels words by the media, all to fuel their desire for new stock market highs.

The only thing she even "agreed" on was that any bond buying should be conditional. How is that new or even encouraging? That is easy to say when she knows very well that the conditions will never be met, as they are not being met in Greece. At the end of the day, no European country is going to turn over sovereignty to Germany, making the whole discussion of ECB bond buying irrelevant.

Take care and be prepared.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 02:52 | 2713370 WaEver
WaEver's picture

instead of writing comments like the end of the euro : put you money where your mouth is and bet your house on a decline of the euro......or as i think i wrote in liar's poker : bulls can make money, bears can make money but pigs get slaughtered

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:40 | 2713519 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

WaEver:  did you mean PIIGS get slaughtered, buy their bonds, and chains.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:14 | 2713391 Peter K
Peter K's picture

The breakup of the Euro is just the latest event in the process of the downfall of Socialisms Western rite. :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:24 | 2713397 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the funniest thing is that the EUR is being defined as a cult by many. nevertheless, whenever I read a comment like yours, I sense a cultish belief that has nothing to do with reason, precedent, history, math, or whatever.

Currency is not Debt. Currency is the denominator of Debt. The Numéraire, to be more precise. Meanwhile, go on in your belief that the EUR is a "Socialist Rite".

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:40 | 2713420 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Ghordius, you write:

..."whenever I read a comment like yours, I sense a cultish belief that has nothing to do with reason, precedent, history, math, or whatever."

Sounds like you are describing the Eurofanatics in the above statement. ;)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:11 | 2713503 Ghordius
Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:37 | 2713418 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

No, this has nothing to do with socialism, this is the product of a banking cartel's attempt to slowly implement a one world currency. Maybe they'll get it... maybe they wont... but seriously, all of Main Street's wealth has been funneled directly to Wall street... and the same is true of Europe. Once the Euro collapses, it will set off a chain of derivaties that will destroy the world financial system. DERIVATIVES, not welfare programs, DERIVATIVES. It simply is not socialism.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:57 | 2713437 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Socialism is a justification for government authority over citizens.  It has something to do with the situation that you describe.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:43 | 2713491 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

Yes, except in this case the citizens are to be administered by a small group of dominant bankers, not in the interest ofr the common good, but in their own personal and familial interests. The situation I describe is a variant of fascist corporatocracy mixed with a banking cartel. It is not socialism, but shares socialism's tyrranical nature... thus authority over citizens.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 03:58 | 2713439 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Actually, it has everything to do with socialism.

The whole Euro premise is built around the assumption that Euroland will develop into a federalist Soviet Union of Europe, where wealth will be redistributed by a benevolant central government appartus to the individual states. The problem that any and all socialist economic system have is that they are not able to generate a required level of taxable income to support the states largess. The stop gap measures are to borrow the shortfalls from the banks. See how this works?

And with respect to the Euro, what the Euro has actually done, is that it exposed the "ponzi" scheme that the European socialist welfare state in fact is. And the proof of what I write is plain for all to see in the Target2 imbalances. What the Target2 imbalances represent is the funding of the 'less' fortunate parts of the Euroland by the more wealthy parts.

As for the bankers, I would just like to quote the immortal Snoop Dogg who said "..if you want to blame anyone, blame the game, not the players." :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 04:47 | 2713457 agent default
agent default's picture

"benevolant central government appartus"

This is easily the greatest oxymoron in the history of the world.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:38 | 2713489 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

The bankers are the game.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:50 | 2713497 THX 1178
THX 1178's picture

No, it has nothing to do with socialism-- this was never the intent of the architects of the European Union. The EU was simply a stepping stone for the international bankers to create a one world government and one world currency. This currency would be, just like all other currencies today (barring a few) loaned out as a debt to be paid back AT INTEREST. It is not a central bank as conceptualized by Marx, but one that works for a profit-- a private bank, just like the Federal reserve or Bank of england and... you guessed it... THE ECB-- they just use "central bank" as a cover for what they really do. How can a socialist state be a ponzi scheme? That is the most asinine thing I have ever heard! Somebody somewhere is running this ponzi scheme for a profit! These are the very people who orchestrated the whole shabazz in the first place. But since they are a cartel, they keep this secret and instead flog this idea that socialism is the problem. It isn't socialists... I'm not saying socialism is good, but jesus! These banks are tricking you into blaming the wrong people.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:17 | 2713498 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

ow, ow, socialism! now I'm scared.

1. we have socialists here since the gold-backed currencies age, and our social spending started with Chancellor Prince Bismark, a Prussian conservative.

2. In France, for example, the socialist Prez wants to put the highest marginal tax rate to 74%. Scary, eh? Even though the two tax systems aren't really comparable, it definitely sounds scarier than the Ike/Nixon rate of 91% in what many call the golden age of the US.

No, for good or bad, the socialists are going to stay, here. Depending from the country they usually capture between 20% and 40% of the votes. And you know what? Some of them are even honest. And anti-globalist. And pacifist. And concerned about their families. Don't transfer the cynicism of the US political situation to europe, it does not hold, we have a different setup.

3. Social Welfare (because nowadays we have lots of corporate welfare) is a bloody national matter in europe. The Target2 inbalances have to do with total spending, of which social welfare is only part. And you would not like a comparison of how much europeans spend for social welfare compared to the US.

4. The EUR "has exposed the "ponzi" scheme that the European socialist welfare state in fact is" is just a simplification. Nevertheless, yes, in part you are right, and you know what? A receding tide exposes who was swimming naked and who not (don't have the source for this phrase). Now tell me if the USD is exposing anything and we'll talk again.

I thought you were seriously talking about the Finns and the EUR, but I have to note that IMHO you were just making a political argument for US electoral consumpion.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:26 | 2713507 Peter K
Peter K's picture

@ Ghordius,

Just fighting IGNORANCE in my own little way. :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:39 | 2713518 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"A receding tide exposes who was swimming naked"

I believe that would be from one of our great socialists...Warren Buffet ;-)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:59 | 2713573 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'm not that fond of socialists, but is this not a kind of slander? Buffet is the epitome of crony capitalist, isn't he?

Is socialist-as-a-label really that differerent in the US? I somehow have difficulties imagining Warren Buffet at an european demonstration of industry workers demanding that their workplace stays here instead of being shipped to China because of an increase of 0.01% of shareholder's profits.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:34 | 2713678 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Agree. Some people don't get it and have to slap lables on things to make sense of them.

Bankers don't care what 'religion' you are. Socialist, communist, capitalist etc. makes not a whit of difference to them how you spend the money.

What matters is that you constantly spend more than you take in so you can borrow ever increasing amounts to feed that interest flowing into the coffers of the banks.

Want money for social programs? Fine. Here you go.

Want money to bomb people to hell? Fine. Have fun.

No difference at all. To them.

The real problem is that they have loaned so much that everyone, nations, central banks, everyone is bankrupt and cannot service the debt. Ever.

This is when things get interesting...Where does the money come from to try to sustain the unsustainable?

Who defaults first and starts the cascade of dominos to fall?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:54 | 2713924 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

The labels help in controling the Proles - they get mad over them and fight amongst themselves. Bloody brilliant, if you ask me.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 10:02 | 2713946 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

Shovelhead has said it as succinctly as possible. Good analysis.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 22:48 | 2716031 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Greetings Ghordius,

Just so you know, when I post at 700 hrs. I won't be around to respond, I work and don't comment or read comments from work.

"I'm not that fond of socialists, but is this not a kind of slander?"

Yes, it is.

"Buffet is the epitome of crony capitalist, isn't he?"

Buffet, a crony capitalist, is a socialist...I mean what I say and say what I mean...always.

Unlike shovelhead's half-assed view of life, labels do in fact mean things and serve a cultural and linguistic purpose to inform. Do Not Enter, Slippery When Wet, Hot-Do Not Touch...for the idiots among us.

The word socialist, is the same.

It means, a person who may not contribute anything at all to society but will always have a strong positive opinion about their own self worth to that society. They can usually be found anguishing over how much their neighbor has or how much their neighbor does not have, while protecting (that is, not sharing) what they have.

They are, insidious little turds who will not even be truthful with themselves...and I have no use for them.

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:17 | 2717733 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

nmewn, the word socialist here in europe still has roughly the same meaning as in 1848, and describes a quite narrow and clearly defined interest/political group with a clear ideological grounding, so much that we differentiate between socialists, social democrats, conservatives with socialist leanings - and of course communists

the label describes people that describe themselves this way, and are quite proud of it

meanwhile, in the AngloSphere there is this great propaganda war going on with several sides trying to use the old labels in all kind of ways. in fact, blurring of labels and positions is strongly encouraged, under the old banner of "it's anyway all the same". i-dog was writing something about someone selling a Romney=Obama mantra while another selling one that was making him quite unhappy

is it useful to conflate a crony capitalist oligarch with the international socialist movement? only to those who want to sell political apathy

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:13 | 2713548 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

Indeed Europe will follow the collectivist political route. They really believe it is a better way, to do things together with collective "rationality". They are quite proud of that "rationality" too.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:03 | 2713624 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

is this an "individualistic" point of view re: "collective"? You are witnessing 17 contries trying to find a common way to cope with a currency war. What would be the opposite?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:55 | 2713704 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

Your question is evidence of my point. Collectivists don't even consider that there could be another superior way. It is called a free market. Any way, the free market wins, once you've destroyed yourself with the collectivism, i.e. a shared huge depression in the making by holding the Euro together in an "all for one, one for all" hate (feigned love, while stealing from each other via govt) fest.

The other way would be individual Europeans saying "hell no" and walking away with their feet and money. An individualist would move to greener pastures that are small and growing fast, than hanging on to large things that are shrinking fast. But the addict doesn't want to radically downsize in order to buy his freedom. Benefits such as guaranteed lifetime employment, guaranteed lifetime healthcare, 4 weeks of paid vacation, 38 hour work weeks, etc.. are difficult to give up.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:20 | 2713792 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

And where does the battle between the Yuan and the Dollar fit in this currency discussion? The original thread is Finns and EUR.

Finnland is a Nation. It IS about their "collective" interests. Independently from how you load the word.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:06 | 2713754 Peter K
Peter K's picture

What you are seeing in Euroland is 17 countries whose political class ramroded the individual states into a DYSFUNCTIONAL currency union, the currency union that in turn raised their unit labot costs to a point that they their respective economies became uncompetitive, their benevolant (not) neighbor, think Germany (which gained a competitive advantage) canabalized the weaker states industrial production base, driving the individual governments to monetaize all of their money good assets including their cash to pay for their SOCIALIST WELFARE UTOPIA state, and now does not want to create a transfer union to rectify the problem that they caused.

Fine. Sounds like 17 countries trying to find a common way...... in the spirit of libety, equality and fraternity i would add. :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:28 | 2714208 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Fine. Then why do the Finns not leave the currency union? Because it would not change the problem. See CHF.

By the way, the winning country in shedding it's industries to Mexico and then China is in the Dollarzone.

You are constantly looking this from the talking point's views of the US election, including the dreaded Welfare Spending. The Eurozone is engaged in an exercise of "Mercantilism". Two completely different beasts.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:53 | 2714263 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Actually Ghordius, I am looking at this from a mathematical point of view. And the numbers do not add up. :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 21:38 | 2715948 Marco
Marco's picture

Actually the numbers in socialist Europe do add up in aggregate (ie. it runs an approximate external trade balance, a small surplus in fact). It's the numbers in the US which don't add up ... the US is Greece writ large.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:40 | 2716147 Peter K
Peter K's picture

So if the numbers add up, how is it that individual member states are running out of cash to fund their domestic liabilities?

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 20:15 | 2717254 Marco
Marco's picture

One country's current account deficit is the other's surplus ... as I said, they add up in aggregate.

The EU has a competitive economy in aggregate ... the US has been running a trade deficit ever since it's oil ran out.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 12:08 | 2714306 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

80,000 pages of rules and regulations known as the acquis communautaire required to enter EU

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:23 | 2717740 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

!excellent point!

now, if Ireland would join the USA, how much rules and regulations would this imply?

the last tax-law was 22'000 pages long. one-single-law.

do you have any idea how many laws, rules and regulations that the US has?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:07 | 2713470 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

no-one wants to be first to get out of the Euro and take all the blame.

same shit... different year...

muddling thru means never having to say:  enuf!

as long as the banksters and pols keep everything "at the margins"in a manner in which the PNV of the increment does not exceed the PNV of divorce X 350,000,000,000   the marraige will last

[where PNV = perceived negative value]


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:14 | 2713471 fdgdfgd
fdgdfgd's picture

Tuomioja is known for his own independent, single-minded views, ignoring most of being correct politically. He also was one to agree on to join EU last... So this is not what pm Katainen and other his friends in power think. Do not take Tuomioja at face value.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:18 | 2713477 zilverreiger
zilverreiger's picture

Also its time for the UK and US to start focussing on their own problems a bit more.

Time is running out guys.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:30 | 2713483 Neethgie
Neethgie's picture

If a govt buys its own CDS then defaults, does it get paid its CDS money?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 05:40 | 2713488 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

The market (since Draghi's promise) doesn't seem to grasp that this bond buying is at best going to be coupled with depressionary austerity on the PIIGS, even as both Draghi and Merkel have stated so. (click link for details)

Prepare for whiplash reversal on the recent hopium rally.

The collectivist Europeans will not choose breakup, rather will choose a shared depression.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:36 | 2713515 Roger Knights
Roger Knights's picture

Here's a quip I wish I'd been around to make at the head of the thread:



Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:37 | 2713516 css1971
css1971's picture

To be perfectly honest when I think of Finns, the image of penguins springs to mind, not so much vikings.


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:19 | 2713559 AAPL_Short
AAPL_Short's picture

You mean Linux Penguin? The closest naturally occuring penguings are like 10.000km away from Finland. No penguins there.


Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:50 | 2713525 Optimusprime
Optimusprime's picture

Europe is not in trouble; the banks' "Euro" is.  For a bracing perspective from Europe, see this:

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 06:59 | 2713528 Shelby Moore III
Shelby Moore III's picture

Disagree, as the "gang of 4" plan is to ONLY save the Euro (click link for details), with no mention of targetting the unemployment rate or the negative GDP rates. Thus the welfare and wealth of Europeans are in trouble, but not the Euro.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:18 | 2713558 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Export that too many people out, start a new wave of colonization. Problem solved.

Signed: an American

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:17 | 2713554 blueridgeviews
blueridgeviews's picture

Is this the same Eurozone that let the Germans take over Europe last century?  I think I understand the mentality now that allowed that to happen.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:32 | 2713577 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

europe = a continent. European Union = a confederation of 27 sovereign countries. EuroZone = a monetary union of 17 sovereign countries since 1999.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:50 | 2713710 Peter K
Peter K's picture

When you write "sovereign", you use that term loosely, yes?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:14 | 2713777 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

No, the factual: Sovereign=own army (a navy is optional)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:16 | 2713785 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Does that include the ECB installed Quisling in Italy?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:38 | 2714230 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'll repeat what I wrote here

"...that *ç*&ç*%%& Monti has been appointed by the Prez and approved and supported by parliamentary majority vote. as per Italian Constitution.

in case you are American, here my new "unelected" rant link, I really can't stand that word anymore"

To put it differently: try to convince the Italian President, the Italian Parliament and the Italian Senate. They choose the Italian President of the Council of Ministers. The "Quisling" is their choice.

But don't tell me you were a Berlusconi fan, before.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:50 | 2714256 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Hey, I'm not a Merkelande fan. Can we remove her? :)

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 16:06 | 2714275 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I know that you are pulling my leg, 'mkay? And your brand of humor does make me laugh.


Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:37 | 2716146 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Actually, I was being serious.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 07:44 | 2713593 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

"They will not allow us to leave the Euro."


"Release the Flaming Cars !"

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:26 | 2713661 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

Didn't they say this yesterday, Thorsday?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:30 | 2713671 Aquaman
Aquaman's picture

Hmm. They said just the opposite on the news.  In fact they said 100% support (not 90% not 95%.....100%).  And the market is trading that way.  You guys are becoming a contrarian indicator.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:31 | 2713674 Let The Wurlitz...
Let The Wurlitzer Play's picture

Finland needs to step up and share the wealth.  They didnt build that!



Fri, 08/17/2012 - 08:54 | 2713718 Broken Window
Broken Window's picture

Meanwhile, Finlad has been forced to cut it's spending, leading to extreme outsourcing at the national broadcasting company. The results have been rather surreal: 

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:01 | 2713745 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

A good listen for any Gang of Four reference.. Guns and Butter

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:13 | 2713774 orangedrinkandchips
orangedrinkandchips's picture



I thought it was JUST ME!

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:27 | 2713820 warezdog
warezdog's picture

Does Vegas have odds on the collapse of the Euro in 2012? Or even the first country to leave the EU? I'd be willing to part with some PM to make some bets.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:37 | 2713863 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

In a classroom, if one child disrupts, he gets punished.  If he initiates and encourages everyone to disrupt, then he will not receive any particular blame.

That's what the Finns needs to do; gather people secretly to announce, as a homogeneous group without a leader, that they are all breaking out of the Euro together.

I'd guess that they would just need a handful of other countries in order to be successful at not attracting any special blame.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 09:52 | 2713918 Lost Wages
Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:14 | 2714172 Getting Old Sucks
Getting Old Sucks's picture

In light of the euro's troubles, how would the one world currency some refer to, work out?  I don't think it would, even if every nation bought in (never happen).  Of course that's TPTB goal though and the euro is a major blow to their cause.

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 11:49 | 2714241 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

we had a one world currency not long ago: the US Dollar. And before, the British Pound. At the times when they both were backed by gold, though not for US Citizens between 1934 and 1974.

Between WWII and 1971, all central banks of the world accumulated USD as FX reserves, and everything that was traded internationally was denominated in USD. Including the trade with the Soviet Union, which generated the EuroDollar (and then the PetroDollar), i.e. the Dollar book-values outside the American banking system.

the whole world was in the dollarzone.

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 01:35 | 2716145 Peter K
Peter K's picture

A little economics lesson made simple for you Ghordius:

The US Dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the US Treasury.

The Zimbabwian Dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the Zimbabwian Treasury.

The Euro currency is backed by the full faith and credit of .... NO TREASURY.

In fact, the Germans, who are assumed to be the backers of last resort, are screaming at the top of their lungs that they are NOT. :)

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:11 | 2717735 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

now you are getting nearer to some facts. did you ever had a look at the balance sheet of the ECB?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 13:08 | 2714585 Dareconomics
Dareconomics's picture

Finland is my favorite for leaving the Eurozone in the next year at 3-1 odds. Greece needs the euro more than the euro needs it, 25-1. Here is an exit scenario:

Sat, 08/18/2012 - 02:07 | 2716166 Peter K
Peter K's picture

The post below is for Ghordius.

It appears in Friday's Daily Telegraph. I am posting it in responce to an attempt by Ghordius to 'relativise' that which is happening in Euroland with the present situation in the US.

Now Ghordius, we can make this about Euroland NOT being like the US. We can find a differenct road to travel, yes?

In the spirit of the above, I bring you Professor Richard Werner from the University of Southampton.


Professor Richard Werner, of the University of Southampton, says he has found a way to resolve Europe’s financial crisis, and Germany had it all along.

No, German Chancellor Angela Merkel hasn’t been keeping it all to herself; the blueprint is a little older, and more controversial than that.

Hitler’s central banker, Dr Hjalmar Schacht, knew how to deal with a great depression, Prof Werner tells us. He argues it’s about time we revived his sage economic ideas now.

Firstly, the plan involves the European Central Bank buying the banking system’s bad assets at face value, which Prof Werner says would not cost taxpayers or cause inflation.

Next – and here’s Dr Schacht’s 1930s magic – the Spanish government and others should stop selling pricey government bonds entirely.

Instead, they should fund themselves through loan contracts from banks in their countries, which Prof Werner says would result in cheaper sovereign borrowing.

All very appealing – but shouldn’t we be wary of using ideas favoured by the Nazis?

“If we don’t want to adopt economic policies on the basis that they were favoured by Hitler’s government, which is an understandable viewpoint, then we should not have introduced the euro in the first place,” Prof Werner responds.

“The introduction of a single European currency, with the central bank located in Germany, was, after all, favoured by Hitler and his technocrats.”

Sun, 08/19/2012 - 05:14 | 2717738 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I fail to understand what point you are trying to make. make a clear argument, for once

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