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Fitch Downgrades UBS, Many Others, Puts Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Goldman, BNP, Deutsche Bank, SocGen And Others On Watch Negative

Tyler Durden's picture


Since one can not get a downgrade of a bank during market hours for fears of springing who knows what circuit breakers, Fitch had to wait until just after the market close to release its latest market surprise which consisted of a "watch negative" announcement on the following banks Barclays, BNP Paribas, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman, Morgan Stanley; others it just slashed some by multiple notches, among which: Landesbank Berlin IDR downgraded to A+ from AA-; Lloyds Banking Group IDR downgraded to A from AA-; RBS IDR downgraded to A from AA-; and most importantly UBS IDR downgraded to A from A+. The reason for the action: "the ongoing Eurozone crisis continues to feed intense market speculation regarding the potential or bank recapitalisation schemes. Therefore for the near term the agency is maintaining a 'single A' range support rating floors for banks in its highest rated Eurozone countries." The Euro is not liking this announcement one bit.

The critical UBS downgrade:

LONDON/MILAN, October 13 (Fitch) Fitch Ratings has downgraded UBS <MLPI.P> AG's (UBS) Long-term Issuer Default Rating (IDR) and revised its Support Rating Floor (SRF) to 'A' from 'A+'. The Outlook on the Long-term IDR is Stable.


At the same time, the agency has downgraded UBS's Short-term IDR to 'F1' from 'F1+' and affirmed UBS's Support Rating at '1'. UBS's Viability Rating (VR) of 'a-' remains on Rating Watch Negative (RWN). This rating action has no impact on the 'AAA' rating of the outstanding covered bonds issued by UBS. A full list of rating actions is at the end of this comment. The rating action on UBS and its subsidiaries is part of Fitch's broader review of changing sovereign support in developed countries announced in separate comments titled 'Rating Banks in a Changing World' and 'Fitch Comments on Support for Euro Banks; Takes Various Support-Driven Rating Actions' both published on 13 October 2011 and available on


Since the intervention of the Swiss authorities in late 2008, UBS's IDRs have been based on Fitch's view of the availability of sovereign support. As a result, the Long-term IDR has been at the SRF. Reflecting the particularly close ties between UBS and the Swiss government following the transfer of a USD38.7bn portfolio of assets to the Swiss National Bank (SNB) StabFund in late 2008 and early 2009, UBS's SRF has since early 2009 been rated one notch above the SRF for Credit Suisse AG (CS), the other large, systemically important Swiss bank.


Fitch's rating action on UBS's SRF reflects Fitch's view that the one notch uplift for close affiliation with the Swiss state is no longer warranted and the agency has therefore lowered UBS's SRF to 'A' in line with its SRF for CS. Consequently, Fitch has downgraded UBS's Long- and Short-term IDRs to 'A' and 'F1' respectively. UBS's Viability Rating (VR), on Rating Watch Negative (RWN) since 16 September 2011 (see "Fitch Places UBS's Viability Rating on Rating Watch Negative; Affirms IDRs" dated 16 September 2011 at, remains unaffected by today's rating action. UBS's SRF and IDRs continue to be based on Fitch's view that there is an extremely high probability of support for UBS from the Swiss authorities at least until the global financial sector has stabilised and resolution regimes in Switzerland and abroad are in place. In Switzerland, legislation attempting to avoid taxpayers having to bail out one of its systemically important banks again ("too big to fail", TBTF, legislation) is currently being finalised. The legislation centres around strengthening banks' capital positions, imposing more stringent liquidity requirements, improving risk diversification and adjusting banks' organisational set-up to allow for the protection of systemically important utility functions in the event of a bank insolvency or threatened insolvency.

Full release on the downgrade watch:

Fitch Reviewing Global Trading and Universal Banks; Places Seven on Rating Watch Negative

In conjunction with a broad assessment of the ratings for the largest banking institutions in the world, Fitch Ratings is conducting a review of the global trading and universal banks in its rating portfolio. As part of that review, Fitch has placed the Viability Ratings (VRs) of seven and the long-term Issuer Default Ratings (IDRs) of six global trading and universal banks on Rating Watch Negative. At the same time, Fitch has placed the short-term IDRs of four of the banks on Rating Watch Negative.

The banks impacted by these rating actions are as follows:

  • Bank of America
  • Barclays Bank plc
  • BNP Paribas
  • Credit Suisse AG
  • Deutsche Bank AG
  • The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
  • Morgan Stanley
  • Societe Generale

Fitch expects to resolve the Rating Watch Negative within a short time frame and to take corresponding rating actions where warranted.

A list of each bank's key impacted ratings follows at the end of this release. Full lists of impacted ratings are contained in the individual rating action commentaries on each of these firms, which are available at ''. Barclays Bank plc's rating action was addressed earlier today; for details see 'Fitch Lowers UK Support Rating Floors; Downgrades Lloyds, RBS to 'A''.

Fitch expects that any downgrades of these banks' VRs would in most cases be one notch and at maximum two notches. Most actions on the long-term IDRs will be limited to one notch as IDRs will not fall below the banks' Support Rating Floors when applicable. Short-term IDR implications will also likely be a one-notch downgrade for those banks whose ratings are on Rating Watch Negative. It also possible that certain banks could have their ratings affirmed at current levels. Fitch also expects that many of these ratings should revert to Stable Outlooks upon resolution of the Rating Watches.

The resolution would be based on the conclusion of Fitch's review of the issuers. Fitch expects to engage with the issuers and review any new or additional information that is relevant to their ratings. Fitch will also consider the absolute and relative ratings of each issuer put on Rating Watch today in the context of other global financial institutions.

The placement on Rating Watch Negative of these global trading and universal banks' VRs reflects Fitch's view that these institutions' business models are particularly sensitive to the increased challenges the financial markets are facing. These challenges result from both economic developments, particularly in the euro area, as well as a myriad of regulatory changes.

Fitch also notes that these actions are not tied to any specific earnings information as this review has been ongoing for some time. The review is motivated by Fitch's evolving concerns about aspects of these business models and the structural challenges they face, particularly during periods of market stress.

However well-managed, the structural aspects of their funding, earnings, and leverage, predispose trading and universal banks to greater vulnerability to market sentiment and confidence, particularly during periods of exogenous financial stress. Furthermore, the complexity of their business models and exposure to fat tail risk make it more difficult to assess the size of loss that could emerge rapidly from unexpected events.

These seven banks are among the largest global trading and universal banks. Trading businesses exhibit high reliance on short-term wholesale funding and to varying degrees what Fitch views as more volatile earnings than commercial banking, and with more opaque risk. These factors drive Fitch's expectation of more robust liquidity and higher capital than commercial banks to retain ratings in the single 'A' range. Fitch considers it highly unlikely for a bank whose business model is strongly weighted to trading operations to remain in the 'AA' range, and any universal bank rated in that range would have to maintain particularly strong levels of retail funding, liquidity and capital. The seven banks remain highly rated firms that largely have strong credit profiles.

While Fitch considers dependence on trading activity and particularly volatile trading activity to differ among this group of banks, it is also Fitch's view that a number of additional factors need to be taken into the balance. Among these, Fitch looks at the dominance of a bank's position in various markets, track records established in each business and barriers to entry and specific challenges facing the commercial banking arms of universal banks. Given the complexity of the business, the degree of transparency achieved in external reporting is also an important factor in Fitch's rating assessment.

Fitch recognizes that these institutions are diverse both in terms of product scope and geography and are among the largest in the world. However, recent history demonstrates that large banks can fail. Furthermore, diversification can have both positive and negative implications. Fitch believes that it is the tendency for asset correlations to converge during times of stress, as witnessed during the 2008 financial crisis. While this is not a new discovery, Fitch believes it is still important to highlight in the context of this rating comment.

Importantly, Fitch also recognizes that individual firms demonstrate varying degrees of resiliency to these concerns, which is driven in part by such key intangible factors as corporate governance, management depth and experience, risk management culture, and so forth. Fitch will continue to weigh these factors in its assessments.

Fitch's rating review includes a broader base of global trading and universal banks. Fitch believes that the institutions placed on Rating Watch Negative are more susceptible to rating downgrades because of their relative sensitivity to the rating attributes outlined above and their relatively high current ratings. Also, some of these banks face challenges from developments in the euro area.

Fitch has taken no action on Citigroup, Inc.'s and JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s VRs, Long-term IDRs and Short-term IDRs. Rating actions on IDRs of UBS AG and The Royal Bank of Scotland plc were taken as a result of revisions to the Support Rating Floors. (Please refer to 'Fitch Comments on Support for Euro Banks; Takes Various Support-Driven Actions' dated Oct. 13, 2011 and the individual issuer commentaries for additional details.) The VR of Bank of America Corporation was also placed on Rating Watch Negative as part of this broader review, and additional ratings drivers are discussed in its individual issuer commentary.

Fitch highlights that other firms are not immune to these challenges, and many other financial institutions, particularly in the euro area have also been subject to negative rating actions by Fitch this week. For more details on Fitch's European rating actions, please refer to the following releases:

--'Fitch Takes Rating Actions on Major Spanish Banks Following Sovereign Downgrade', Oct. 11, 2011;

--'Fitch Takes Rating Action on Major Italian Banks Following Sovereign Downgrade', Oct. 11, 2011;

--'Fitch Comments on Support for Euro Banks; Takes Various Support-Driven Rating Actions', Oct. 13, 2011;

--'Fitch Places Five Major European Commercial Banks on Rating Watch Negative', Oct. 13, 2011.

Furthermore, Fitch acknowledges that many of these global financial institutions demonstrate stronger fundamental financial metrics than they had preceding the start of the financial crisis in 2008, and some have lower ratings than they did at the time.

Nevertheless, Fitch considers the potential for these negative rating actions to be warranted by the structural challenges these firms' business models face. These challenges stem from intensified regulation, heightened funding costs, intense competition to remain a top tier player, and changing risks in an industry of constant and rapid innovation and interconnectedness with developments in the rest of the industry and the global economy.

For additional perspective see the individual rating action commentaries for each of these institutions and the report 'Rating Banks in a Changing World', dated Oct. 13, 2011.

Fitch has placed the following ratings on Rating Watch Negative:

Bank of America Corporation

--Viability Rating (VR) 'a-'.

Barclays Bank plc

--Viability Rating 'aa-';

--Long-term IDR 'aa-';

--Short-term IDR 'F1+'.

BNP Paribas

--Viability Rating 'aa-';

--Long-term IDR 'aa-'.

Credit Suisse AG

--Viability Rating 'aa-';

--Long-term IDR 'aa-';

--Short-term IDR 'F1+'.

Deutsche Bank AG

--Viability Rating 'aa-';

--Long-term IDR 'aa-'.

The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.

--Viability Rating 'a+';

--Long-term IDR 'a+';

--Short-term IDR 'F1+'.

Morgan Stanley

--Viability Rating 'a';

--Long-term IDR 'a';

--Short-term IDR 'F1'.

Societe Generale

--Viability Rating 'a+'.

Additional information is available at ''.


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Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:28 | 1771008 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

That has to be good for a 300 point gain tomorrow !

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:34 | 1771038 jdelano
jdelano's picture

shorts have some deep pocket friends on their side all of a sudden.  Ah brahim, don't fight the trading range.  

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:55 | 1771148 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Its perfectly timed after market closes at 4pm like all those other ignored items like Sovereign downgrades during earnings season with blowouts like GOOG's numbers being the main attraction.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:21 | 1771256 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Hey...wasn't Fitch one of those outfits rating subprime as triple "A"?

Here... let me help simplify their analysis...

Nevertheless, Fitch considers the potential for these negative rating actions to be warranted by the structural challenges these firms' business models face. These challenges stem from intensified regulation (possible implementation of minor regulation), heightened funding costs (people rushing to withdraw their cash), intense competition to remain a top tier player (too many sharks not enough fish), and changing risks in an industry of constant and rapid innovation and interconnectedness (high frequency and zero sum robotrading) with developments in the rest of the industry and the global economy (forthcoming 'industry' and global economic collapse).

Hope that helps...

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:16 | 1771446 max2205
max2205's picture

And CitiBank and JP Morgan are ok. OMG

FITCH is French right, they are downgrading everyone before France loses AAA so then they don't look as bad


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:47 | 1771912 LookingForTruth
LookingForTruth's picture

Yep, best looking horse in the glue factory....

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 06:21 | 1772702 Archduke
Archduke's picture

@max2205: FITCH is French right, they are downgrading everyone before France loses AAA so then they don;t look as bad

uhm.  SocGen and BNP Paribas are by far the two most massive French banks in market cap and investment banking weight...

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:59 | 1771605 Strider52
Strider52's picture

This just in from Reuters:

UBS, Moody's, S&P, MS, BAC, Goldman, BNP, Deutsche Bank, SocGen and others just downgraded Fitch to C--.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:35 | 1771043 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

Only a negative watch and here I thought they were bankrupt 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:10 | 1771217 Republicae
Republicae's picture

LOL....All fractional reserve banks are just a bank run away from bankruptcy!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:18 | 1771259 Divided States ...
Divided States of America's picture

Actually this may help widen credit spreads for all these banks in time for them to report blowout earnings next quarter like JPM did today....damn theres a motive in everything nowadays.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1771074 macholatte
macholatte's picture

Downgrades = Bullish

War = Bullish

Terrorist Attacks = Bullish

3T Euro Print Debt Bailout = Bullish


Why fight it?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:53 | 1771136 jdelano
jdelano's picture

bullostrich:  a person who dumps their savings in the market and buries their head in the sand, refusing to acknowledge that each successive cycle of crash and counter-trend rally is steadily eroding away at their wealth...


When your bull market finally comes, bud, will you have enough cash on hand to dollar cost average the 40% decline you took on the way down.  WTFU.  

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:08 | 1771206 kito
kito's picture

No jdelano. Bullostritch is right. The bull market is here. The downgrades are completely irrelevant. Its all bullish because the banks are mere subsidiaries of sovereigns. The majors will all stay alive thanks to their host countries. You can't fight this. You're the one who has his head in the sand. No crisis will come of this because moral hazard has wiped sanity from the earthi

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:13 | 1771239 Republicae
Republicae's picture

Yes, the illusion of massive "quantitative easing", certain to create a bull market in just about anything...that is until the "printing" is halted by the central bankers...then boom becomes bust and the scam is once again revealed for what it really is...just another illusion with no productive capital creation.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:31 | 1771488 unununium
unununium's picture

> until the "printing" is halted by the central bankers

No, until the "printed" won't buy anything anymore.

It goes on longer than anybody thought it could becuase of huge productivity and efficiency increases brought on by the Internet.

The money printers are seeing to it that they get all the benefits from those advances, as they have from every other positive innovation since banks emerged from the primordial slime.

Stubborn idle capacity also contributes.  Inflation is hard to produce these days.


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 22:34 | 1772104 Republicae
Republicae's picture

Actually, inflation is doing pretty well, except if you are reading the offical government CPI numbers, then it looks so tame and sedate, those numbers sure work well for those in power. 

The fact of the matter is that if you look at the money supply, at least what is being reported by the FED, it is substantial...price inflation is lagging, as it always does, behind monetary inflation...hold on to your dollars and see their value vaporize into air.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:31 | 1771504 jdelano
jdelano's picture

I'm up 35% for year on puts and gold.... How's your book doing. Hahahahaa--morons.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:00 | 1771609 calltoaccount
calltoaccount's picture

ehhh, did you mean sovereigns are mere subsidiaries of banks and bankstas? 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:10 | 1771215 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

USS Economic Recovery




Sir, we're besieged on all sides by torpedoes of economic depression, bank insolvency, 23% unemployment, housing foreclosures, real estate market in turmoil, European economic market about impolde, trillion dollar deficit spending, no banks lending, Main Street loosing entrepenuers, Obamavilles opening nationwide, State and local governments insolvent, some declaring bankruptcy. What are we to do Captain?


Damn those torpedoes, bull market ahead!!

Dow 36,000 bitchez!!!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:41 | 1771080 Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

Does fitch bitch do this for some sort of validity??

THey purposely ignored their core business of assessing asset value.

Now they come out and downgrade the obvious and expect some respect.

My respect for these asshats is nil to negative. They deserve to get thrown down and shit in their collective mouths. I like the cramer entertainment value more so.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:51 | 1771127 zebra
zebra's picture

don't be modest. make it 500.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1771224 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

At this stage of game if the headlines ran STOCK MARKET CRASH that'd be good for SP 2k run!


The sociopathic idiots need to literally blow the fucking world up to put a dent in this motherfucker!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:43 | 1771554 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

actually i agree with that.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:29 | 1771009 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Fitch After Hours Tape Bomb FTW!  Boooooooosssssshhhhhhhhhh...............

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:29 | 1771011 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

downgrade below AAA rating should forbid them from acting as primary dealers. Reason? not credit worthy. Go borrow from responsible banks.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:54 | 1771142 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

Maybe they're "no doc" Primary dealers.  What could happen right?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:00 | 1771172 knukles
knukles's picture

No birth certificate, transcripts, associatons, friends, travel disclosure.
Sounds acceptable to me.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 22:37 | 1772086 Cliff Claven Cheers
Cliff Claven Cheers's picture

A Kenyan, a Communist and a Muslim walk into a bar.  The bartender says what can I get you Mr. President.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:45 | 1771564 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

how 'bout trading at a penny a share like Lehman? THEY'RE SHAMELESS I TELL YOU! I mean "DO YOU EVEN HAVE A PENNY IN YOUR POCKET?" (Answer: "No...I have a MILLION pennies in my pocket!")

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:30 | 1771014 PicassoInActions
PicassoInActions's picture

bulish for something, tough not sure for what.

Short Euro at least till weekend.


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:31 | 1771023 PicassoInActions
PicassoInActions's picture

why all this gaygrades, downgrades are after hours. and upgrades are during the market hours.

That's is strait manipulation. We should be down today good few hundred points

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:35 | 1771046 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

They knew Google was reporting afterhours today. If you have bad news release it when things are good. (OXY) 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:32 | 1771026 fuu
fuu's picture

This deserved the Donkey Kong pic.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:34 | 1771028 knukles
knukles's picture

B B B B B Bu But But But, Not Goldman?!?!?!
My Lord, they're the savyiest, smartest guys in the room, if anything's being done super, dooper, exceedingl,y awesomely, great, well and near God's Perfection as They Alone Have Been Anointed to Do God's Work, how in His Name can they be at risk?
They're only a Counter-Party and have laid off all their risks onto other unwise, unassuming, silly, slow, dolt, like slugs of dubious at best Counter-Parties.
See, Goldman has laid off their Counter-Party risks on all the other fellas on the list.
So that means that they'll go broke and not Goldman, and so when Goldman goes to collect, uh, a-hem, uh, it ah, well, doesn't it?  I mean?  Like uh....
Oh fuck.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:35 | 1771054 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

They are on the list. Goldman Sachs Group.


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1771076 knukles
knukles's picture

That's what I mean!  They're Whiter than Drifting Snow, Cleansed of All Risk via the Other Guys.
They Should Be Upgraded to AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyeah.

They should be exempt from this folly, for they Do God's Work.

Where the fuck is MDB?
Gotta hear his tripe on this blessed event.

Oh, the irony of it all.  Fuck over the Counter-Parties so they loose their ratings...  There is Karma, Payback, a Group Serious Corn-Holeing for All Concerned.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:57 | 1771158 Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

I came up with the ruffcut bank rating system.

There are several  classes


Shitbag-- with further negative watch.

DoubleDoubleupthepoopshoot- for the bank that actually is being audited.

CharlesPonzi You B my hero Plus plus - "we never looked too hard at your operation, but appreciate your subscription contributions."

If I had this type of business, I would be embarrassed to show my face in public. amerika lives and strives to be one country under greed.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1771182 knukles
knukles's picture

... under greed, invincible with lawlessness and injustice for those fucking wired into the Leviathian.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:32 | 1771032 Black Forest
Black Forest's picture

On Thursday evening? Why not Friday?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:43 | 1771088 Western
Western's picture

That's when the really ugly news will come.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:31 | 1771703 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

You mean all the doubleplusgoodthinkful news?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:33 | 1771034 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

This is unamerican

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1771060 prains
prains's picture

This is unamerican


But it is Oligarkian

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 21:54 | 1772026 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

I don't know what that means anymore.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:33 | 1771035 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

Noone cares, Google was BETTER THAN EXPECTED! Yeah, can u believe it, BETTER THAN EXPECTED!!! Banks get downgraded en masse, ditto for sovereigns but who cares when Google one quarter result WAS BETTER THAN EXPECTED!!!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:37 | 1771064 s2man
s2man's picture

Hey Dick. I'll trade you 52 of my avatars for one of yours.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:45 | 1771098 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

Don't do it Dick.

Think of the premiums!!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:53 | 1771143 legal eagle
legal eagle's picture

We hear you brother.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:13 | 1771238 knukles
knukles's picture

Take his pre-65's and give him a inventory reciept before you loan it out.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:34 | 1771039 eurogold
eurogold's picture

All the ratings Mafia...Fitch, Standard+Poors, Moody's should be closed, crushed, and made to pay for the "fixing" they cause. They are given too much power and have caused way too much harm not only to the global economies but also to the man on the street! End it now!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:32 | 1771710 Rainman
Rainman's picture

...Yah, they couldn't figure out the innards of the subprime black box so they guessed wrong. They can't figure out what's in the bank's black box either, so now they bet they are guessing right.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:34 | 1771040 pauhana
pauhana's picture

Believe ZH telegraphed this yesterday.  The part that I am hoping is correct is as follows:  "Fitch recognizes that these institutions are diverse both in terms of product scope and geography and are among the largest in the world. However, recent history demonstrates that large banks can fail."  Of course here in America, we don't like to hurt bankers' feelings so failure has not been allowed. 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1771056 knukles
knukles's picture

We're Americun and exempt frum histree.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:35 | 1771045 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture


Stupid fucking ratings.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:47 | 1771567 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

ooooooo. What a mouth. You remind me Ms. Pillsbury and her sassy "casino talk."

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:35 | 1771047 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

  Time for the clan to get back to work. The 10 handle move is in.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:40 | 1771075 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

after markets closed didn't matter to me

the leak was already priced in, world-wide

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:48 | 1771111 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Good on ya. Take some risk off.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 21:48 | 1772018 been there done that
been there done that's picture

Agree, TOTALLY corrupt. The NAS was green while banks and everything else was down. Amazing coincidence.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:36 | 1771057 Mugatu
Mugatu's picture


Look out below!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:37 | 1771058 PicassoInActions
PicassoInActions's picture

Actually if they downgrade one bank at the time, somewhere around 3:55 PM- it would be more fun.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:39 | 1771066 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

Still not one word on the MSM channels that are celebrating the Google numbers. Well, maybe after they finish that bottle of Don Perion they'll get around to it.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:39 | 1771069 Mae Kadoodie
Mae Kadoodie's picture

ReCap Schemes Bitchez!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:43 | 1771089 trade the day
trade the day's picture

euro isn't moving.  You can't make this up. 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:55 | 1771134 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Look @ the Fibi move from the last wave.  1.43 ish to 1.3150 ish. Its's consolidating. Margin management!


  Also remember the BoE (Q/E is priced in now and the cable trade has held well). Hence the eur/gbp trade.

     Personally I'll trade a more traditional style.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:55 | 1771152 Black Forest
Black Forest's picture

They are everywhere. FX doesnt matter in this respect.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:59 | 1771169 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 ? F/X doesn't matter? Stick to waxing cars!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:04 | 1771187 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

maybe he works at the swiss car wash?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:16 | 1771250 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

I want a job at the BoJ car wash!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:48 | 1771575 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Ohhhhhh but you can. Just WATCH me. (NOT TOO CLOSE THOUGHT! NOT TOO CLOSE!)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:49 | 1771109 Josh Randall
Josh Randall's picture

If that "watch" list isn't made up of Satan's Helpers I don't know what is

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:50 | 1771120 Threeggg
Threeggg's picture

The Swiss make the "Best" watches.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:50 | 1771119 Scalaris
Scalaris's picture

Bullishness is in the eye of the beholder (HFT) -apparently- and if the STOXX600 goes up tomorrow, I'm quitting everything and starting an organic pet-rock farm.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:56 | 1771153 Racer
Racer's picture

Organic pet rock farming is a very lucrative business compared to being involved in this 'market'

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:01 | 1771161 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Don't even think about it.  My all-natural CompanionStone™ company will blow you out of the water!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:15 | 1771247 knukles
knukles's picture

Don't violate my "This Rock Rocks" technology patent.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:54 | 1771144 Racer
Racer's picture

And then the out of hours computer sweepers will gobble up all the shorters and magically have the futures soaring by morning and all is well again

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:57 | 1771156 LongSoupLine
LongSoupLine's picture

The fact ANY of these crooked fuks have any form of the letter "A" in their rating is a complete joke.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:20 | 1771260 knukles
knukles's picture

Hows about a big Red Letter A branded on their foreheads. 
Mean reversion shit. 
Like medieval fucking mean. 
Maybe even install Shira for financial crimes and start chopping some fingers and hands.
Fuck me... The Grand Ayeatoldjya Knuks says.....
(Oh man, stop that splattering, dude)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:49 | 1771579 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Actually that's what i was waiting for. Ye Olde "Blanket Downgrade." Don't know what they're waiting for actually. No matter how slice it a shit sandwich is still .... just a shit sandwich.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:58 | 1771162 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Thats what got me, why do it at the end of market thursday when they could have did it on friday.  Maybe it's because something this big would have leaked out and the rumor would have been way worse than the truth (which is bad anyway).  People and financial systems would have been running around with speculation that 7 large banks are being downgraded if not more and the reasons would have vast.  They didn't want to see a 2,000 point drop on rumor.  This way they will have a 300 point drop on fact for Friday.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:03 | 1771185 Racer
Racer's picture

300 point rise cos it wasn't as bad as expected

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:59 | 1771395 mitchrothschild
mitchrothschild's picture

it was priced in....


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:59 | 1771396 mitchrothschild
mitchrothschild's picture

it was priced in....


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:05 | 1771192 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 16:59 | 1771168 maxmad
maxmad's picture

This is Bearish!  This is goood for a 1000 point drop!  Remember the trading range is 11.5 to 10.4!  We be heading back to 10,400!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1771226 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

All I want to know is the answer to one burning question: WHEN WILL B of A GO UNDER 5 BUCKS A SHARE???  That's when things will get really interesting.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:12 | 1771232 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

Guess Fitch missed the planned Planning Plan the Planners are planning to plan.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:24 | 1771277 pcrs
pcrs's picture

no problemo, trillions are coming from the bottomless spring of the ESF

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:31 | 1771309 pauhana
pauhana's picture

Some Bozo on Fast Money just said that, to raise revenue, it is possible that big banks may start passing along the fees they are charged by the feds to hold money - a potential negative interest rate.  Holy cow (or fill in the blank)! 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:40 | 1771329 plantigrade
plantigrade's picture

So bullish.

Let's just double-double leverage.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:42 | 1771342 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

So an F1+ IS GOOD ,RIGHT...?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:44 | 1771343 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

WOW, look at the after hours action om these stocks!!! ZZzzzzzzz...

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:44 | 1771346 digalert
digalert's picture

Will Fitch get in trouble for this?

How dare they? hmmm

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:50 | 1771371 cosmictrainwreck
cosmictrainwreck's picture

3rd day in a row of 100,000+ lots of VXX changing hands A/H (2nd day for same in TVIX); positioning, bitchez

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:53 | 1771380 Grimbert
Grimbert's picture

Can someone please give me a league table of all the ratings and what they mean. Presumably if you have a certain number of A's it means certain funds are allowed to buy you, and also, presumably, - (minus) means you are assumed to be heading downwards and + means you might be expected to go up.


Or I might be wrong and in fact a score out of 10, 20 or 100 would be more meaningful ( read meaningless as they seem to have no bearing on reality )

Do the grades somehow relate to US exam results? In the UK F is a valid grade between E and G, but we all know anything below C is a fail but they don't like to call it that any more.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 21:24 | 1771983 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture


Try this link:

You're welcome!



Thu, 10/13/2011 - 17:59 | 1771391 Grimbert
Grimbert's picture

It looks like my mortgage is safe at HSBC. *phew*

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:07 | 1771414 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

The financials are going higher. Tyler Durden and Zero Hedge provide exceptional research. After 17 years on "Wall Street", I wish they were around the whole time. I would love to start a hedge fund with them. I have used them the last 3 months to get the inside scoop and read them constantly. Unfortunately, their trading ability is just not there. Trading is for the twisted. Despite the fundamentals- traders are buying financials and selling volatility for now. Keep up the excellent work!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:35 | 1771524 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Are you high right now or is your vix chart upside down?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:41 | 1771547 chump666
chump666's picture


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:47 | 1771572 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Traded The Vix the last three months. TVIX and XIV. Made a lot of money. First TVIX at 16.50. XIV at 5. There is huge support here. Bought TVIX yesterday at 55...Sold at 61 today. Most traders are selling the VIX right now.  Traded the VIX at least 50 times in the last 90 days. The fear trade may have been abandoned (for now). Will revisit it.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:14 | 1771654 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Most traders! How can you seriously put forth that statement and expect it not to be torn to shreds here--do you ink your're among the sheeple at cnbc? Most traders my ass--what resource are you basing this sweeping determination on---using Cramer as your representative sample? The etrade baby? Your magic eight ball? You're gonna have to do better than that to pump here.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:37 | 1771726 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

lol-not pumping anything. Just expressing my trade. I could care less about being torn to shreds here. BTW CNBC, Crammer, and the rest were discredited 10 years ago- while you were still in diapers. Also...if you do some research...selling volatility has reached a high not seen since 2009. I could care less if you or anyone else makes money on your trades. I am on the record. Are you?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:58 | 1771797 jdelano
jdelano's picture

First off, you pretentious avatar'd Failed-back office junior analyst, I'm in my thirties, which it would appear makes you a dinosaur rather than me a child. Second as a self-purported tech head, i'm having a hard time understanding how you missed that after the vix nose dived, it slammed into a concrete floor of resistance and immediately about-faced. Third--you must be new, I couldn't be any more on the record. Fourth--the pullback in he vix is tracking the rise in the euro which has been propelled by short covering which is now out of gas as we've (once again, will you ever learn?) hit e top of a trading range for which there is no escape catalyst. For the record, S&p at best retests 1220, with an outside chance of hitting 1230 before it goes back into the toilet.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:17 | 1771842 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

You are right and wrong. The VIX did slam into to 30 floor. I agree. You are wrong- I traded the floor. Made good money buying the TVIX at 55 yesterday and selling today at 60.50 today. A Dinosaur? Doubt it- An expert.  I would have to agree...all technicals indicate a "sell"- except I see the market trading higher the next few days. So what are you short? I am long FAS. or do you just express theory..where's your money?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 21:36 | 1772001 jdelano
jdelano's picture

An expert. Lol you cocky bastard. I have modest short potions in crm and gmcr which I put on the day before yesterday. Don't care much about those at all--scratch and wins. My big ticket is a relatively massive stack (on my terms) of puts on spy which (this time around) I started too early after seeing blood in the streets when the s&p broke 1100 (I'd just cashed out an older stack 1120 so it was a bit of a fubar) rather then let go however, I braced myself to dca my way out of the hole from the top of the trading range. I added half again my original contracts after a twenty percent loss and again at a 40% loss. So I am now sitting on about a 28% loss (lots of movement today despite the minimal drop in spy) and will add again at 1220-1230 and hold on til I'm 20% in the green. I won't let go, period, though I'll stop adding after 1260 so this my first potential fuck up since I started trading in and out of the puts in august. It's not ego so much as the fact that I viscerally hate this fairy tale bullshit market's refusal to meaningfully adhere to fundamentals and I have faith that it has a will of it's own to always return to reality no matter how fiercely HFT attempts to distort it. The farce it's become renders useless the years of brain power I've invested in understanding how to navigate it
and makes a colossal joke out of my chosen career. So--I'm the opposite of you in a way, I'm trading on principal. But that doesn't mean I'm blinded or not using my head. If I thought there was substance (even algo substance) to this rally id tell you I fully expect to lose on this trade, but at the moment I see nothing to make me think that. If your talking about prices going up as in a run to 1220, I concede that's easily possible, but if you're talking about a breakout, I'd disagree that that's technically in the cards. Bartels is right--bottoms need volume. This fluff is an attempt to lure mom and pop into another fleecing, but that's not happening until long after the storm has passed through Europe. Until then, range. Until then concrete floor below the vix and the horsey goes up and down up and down on, as the tylers are so fond of repeating, rumors, lies, and innuendo all reinforced by your kids following basic ta programs...

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 22:34 | 1772107 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Sounds like you are a pretty good trader. Shorted GMCR last week from 108 to are a llittle late . Cocky? Yeah..I am top 5% at least. I have paid a lot of money to get there and still have room for improvement. You have a lot a passion for trading. That is good. Trading is a full-time job that can drive you insane. Only 1 out of 20 ever make it. Even those that make it are basically twisted according to accepted social test. Personally- I think trading is the ultimate test for those who want to compete against the best in the world. Competing against those that want the ultimate risk vs. insanity. I like to play that game. Can't help it- born and bred trader. You may be right- prob take a loss-yet I gotta play my game;)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:24 | 1771472 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 You actually think financials are going higher? Chomp on this>


  Google the link If it doesn't work!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:39 | 1771539 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

News? News is for those that need an explaination. Don't need to know why- just if prices are going higher or lower. I put my money on prices going higher. If they don't , don't care- I sell. No beliefs. No emotion. No committment. Prices are going higher;)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:48 | 1771573 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Why? Hope? I mean I agree, global macro fundamentals are in phenomenally good shape--corporate profits have nowhere to go but skyrocketing up, debt levels are absurdly low, and it only makes sense because you've lost so much money this year, why would god, bernanke and Obama let that continue given all the incredibly intelligent and informed investing decisions you've made this year... I mean that's what I see but tell me, why do you think stocks are going higher?

Feeble squeak "because they are so cheap?"

Mwahahahaha. I'm really starting to take a perverse joy in watching bulls get slaughtered.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:59 | 1771606 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

None of that. The cheap get cheaper. Actually- if you are addressing me. I have been short the whole time. Played the TVIX and DGP (Gold) over and over. I don't think anymore. I play the computer programs. They are now run by kids who are using simple TA and running their programs on basic info. They control 70% of the trading volume. Opinions and beliefs kill your portfolio;)

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:08 | 1771634 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Okay stock o speare/bud foxx/Gordon gecko/iceman/terminator of the markets, riddle me this--we've now taken two runs at 1220 and failed. Every Elliot loser I've read is calling for a wave down--so tell me are you really basing this clairvoyant vision of the future on tech or did you recently go long and are reading what you want to see in the charts?

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:44 | 1771757 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Well- that's always possible. I wanted to see negative. I did not. Elliot Wave is for neophytes. Actually, the best bet IS short-according to the charts. I'm gonna take a counter-trade bet....just for sh#ts and giggles. Why? becuase there are too many amatuers making the short trade right now.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:57 | 1771794 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Oh- I forgot...been trading "charts" for 17 years. This was when they thought it was vodoo and not a real skill. Now you can get a CMT designation...makes it legit...except their methods are trend following and not predictive. So...I play against beginners in charting. I lot of fun!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:01 | 1771806 jdelano
jdelano's picture

Hahaha right. Look around. All you'll see iis bulls. Check your shoes--you're ankle deep in their shit.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:43 | 1771896 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Not at alll. I'll change sides in a heartbeat. I really don't care. I'll sell my long and go short like it was a "click away". Take a loss? Psst- who cares....I always try to be on the winning team. So- which ever way they want to bring it?...Go team!

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 21:51 | 1772020 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

And that's why we're all fucked, in a perfect little nutshell.

Amateur traders are looking at fundimentals, and getting burned, so they, eventually, aspire to be this guy ("stocksphere," that is), and things get worse every year.

There's something I learned in the real world- you know, the one where you have to eat, live somewhere and shit- amateurs know the theory, have the nicest tools, and produce the best work.  It's the "pro" that cobbles together shit with spit and duct tape, marks it up 400% and sells it to your grandma, then acts superior about it.

Fuck what you think is pragmatic- the markets have a purpose, that of improving human life by routing capital to enterprises that show promise to encourage expansion and development.  They are not your personal casino, brought about so that you can harvest cash from the world because you are a sick, fucked-up excuse for a person.

So, good for you, asswipe.  Thanks for being a part of corrupting human society, and causing untold amounts of misery with your sociopathic tendacies.  I'm glad your lack of morals, emotions, and committment have allowed you some solace in your time so far, but people like me, who have managed to hang onto some shred of human compassion and empathy, are fed up with you and your ilk.  

Hope your cash harvest comforts you during the drop from the scaffold.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 23:32 | 1772250 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Wow. I'm just a poor guy trying to beat the street. Just because I am learning their game doesn't mean I am bad. Good guys need to learn their game. Sometimes a Knight of the People has to be trained to fight. I have been trained to fight, So I learn their ways. I have no cash harvest- yet I am learning how to beat them. Be thankful for those with the capabilities to learn the trade to fight for you. I am fighting for you. I am getting very good at it. The good need to have trained warriors. Turn the other cheek is fine...but carry a big stick helps brother. Knights Templar were disbanded...yet have faith that those who do good are training to fight. I am on your just don't know it yet;)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 00:07 | 1772339 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Benefit of the doubt conferred for claiming to be a brother Templar.

If you're for real, we've got no quarrel. Of course, if you're for real, you see my argument, and understand the root of it.  If you find yourself on that scaffold, give any real sign, and if I am in the crowd, I'll cut the noose myself and escort you to safety.  America always has her sons, even when she apparently hates them, and I fully understand the value of a double agent- I've stood in those boots myself, from time to time.

Of course, if you are just giving up and cashing in, that is equally apparent.  Just remember that walking the razor's edge requires balance.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 01:11 | 1772511 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

There is no Razor's Edge for The Templars. We walk one side only. I fully understand your point. I'm sure you can understand my position. Cashing in is for the weak. I see no problem for the warriors of the good to be paid a lot of money. The bad are paid the highest in our society. I say- raise the pay to be good. Make it profitable to be GOOD. It's not easy to be good. You have to have faith and morals. I will certainly accept poverty and still fight for whats right. I say- you can be rich and still be good. If the strong in spirit had capital-it would be fair. It is time for being a good human being to be compensated. I will fight either way-My way is too build capital and fight the bad head on:)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 01:42 | 1772543 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Right glad am I to see your faith so well founded.  But do not delude yourself- there are many disinherited sons who choose the wrong path, and I have left broken armor along the road in my wake, when it was warranted.  False knights are an abomination.

Capital is the flip side of the coin of industry, and not to be derided.  I will not be the one who tells you to break your strategy.  I have taken the other side of the coin, and my men mind the wheat and the foundries.  We do not finance, we feed and heal.  For my part, I have planted spears amongst the wheat, and those who wield the scythe shall reap the whirlwind.

So, continue in peace.  Courage is strength, and faith is armor.


Fri, 10/14/2011 - 02:09 | 1772567 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Thank you for the pass- mind you "false knight" is for naught. My armor is strong, my courage is unwielding, and my sword is razor sharp. I do not need your permission-out of respect, I conferred with you. But do not doubt, I was passing with or without your blessing. There is no delusion....I march on and slay all those in the way.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:37 | 1771522 scatterbrains
scatterbrains's picture

As I understand it a credit downgrade can be counted as income for reporting purposes because when your reputation goes down the shitter you no longer have to spend money pretending in commercials and advertizing and such that you are reputable or solvent..  so expect positive moves higher on the market open tomorrow.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:36 | 1771530 chump666
chump666's picture

BNP makes some of the WORST calls in the history of the markets. I think they read their commodity charts upside down. 

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 18:58 | 1771596 Tic tock
Tic tock's picture

And so things begin to move up a gear, the financial system is a global clusterjug. Banking, for my money, should be put in abeyance - it is the second deriviative of the 'global' issue - which is 'safeguarding the facility of capital accumulation (or somesuch) - we have to make it easier to deploy capital productively. That isn't large -scale investment; it is small businesses. Much as the Banks dislike businesses which they do not own, at leastthey still have the military and energy sectors, and it would be a shame to lose those. ...Cut regulation and simplify tax laws- that's the reset we need.

Its still a compromise, a slow recovery, but a recovery. There is no monetary solution and precious little fiscal fixing that can be done at the Public level. This is what is left.


Thu, 10/13/2011 - 19:39 | 1771733 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

"Watch negative?"

I'd rather S&P put them on the "Do Not Resuscitate" list...but the new S&P Pres probably wants to keep his job longer then the last one.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 20:48 | 1771915 CashCowEquity
CashCowEquity's picture

Longs are going to get their legs ripped off Monday.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 22:02 | 1772044 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

I disagree.

The zeitgeist is experiencing catastrophe burnout right now, and nothing short of fire raining from the skies is going to break the current range for the time being.

Overall, I get and agree with the sentiment, but if I were you, I would not be playing short right now.  Don't worry, it'll be "Doom on" again soon enough, but people are just not wired to remain negative for such long periods of time, and this is a correction to the upside.  It has nothing to do with fundimentals, right now it's all about emotions, and people need a moment where they can sleep feeling that there is some hope on the horizon somewhere.  Reality will reassert itself eventually, as it always does- but it's a bit unlikely that it'll be on Monday.


Fri, 10/14/2011 - 02:52 | 1772607 Stockspeare
Stockspeare's picture

Wise advice. The Bulls are marching in and I am leading them in. Stockspeare is leading the charge. You will be run over. I dare you to short. Keep asking we crush you. Be afraid,,,very afraid.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 11:14 | 1773713 jdelano
jdelano's picture

If it doesn't turn soon, it will break the trading range to the upside, and that will be an absolute disaster as it will lure a lot of dopes back into the market and make for a doubly large crash when Merkel/Sarkozy deliver nothing but more plans of plans and insufficient ringfencing augmentation in three weeks.  

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