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FT's Tett Says "Foolish Simply to Deride Or Ignore GATA" - GATA Debates CPM re Silver

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From Gold Core

FT's Tett Says "Foolish Simply to Deride or Ignore GATA" - GATA Debate CPM re Silver

Gold is trading at USD 1,653.80, EUR 1,196.10, GBP 1,038.40, JPY 125,832.0, AUD 1594 and CNY 10,545/oz.
Gold’s London AM fix this morning was USD 1,651.00, GBP 1,035.56 and EUR 1,191.37 per ounce.
Fridday’s AM fix was USD 1,623.00, GBP 1,027.02 and EUR 1178.14 per ounce.

Cross Currency Table

Gold prices edged higher today in all major currencies. There are hopes that European leaders are moving closer to a concrete plan to solve euro zone's debt crisis which has lifted sentiment in commodities and equities.

Little progress was made by European Union leaders on Sunday and details remain very limited but optimism is high, likely too high, regarding a ‘Grand Solution’ at the second summit on Wednesday.

Data regarding Chinese economic growth and Japanese exports led to Asian equities seeing good gains. European equities opened higher but have given up early gains.

One of the major issues and talking points in the precious metal markets in recent years has been allegations by GATA and others that bullion banks and central banks may be intervening in free markets and surreptitiously manipulating gold and silver prices and keeping them artificially low.

It is an issue that is quite divisive amongst investors and in the market - including in GoldCore where opinions differ.

It is an important debate and one that has ramifications not just for the gold and silver market but for markets in general and for free market capitalism.

The ‘Great Silver Debate’ took place at the Silver Summit in Spokane, Washington on Friday where Bill Murphy of the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee (GATA) debated  Jeffrey Christian of the CPM Group.

 
The Great Silver Debate - Manipulation: Fact or Fiction? – GATA V CPM Group

The debate, hosted by Kitco, did not see a knockout blow with both contestants voicing their long held opinions regarding the manipulation of silver and precious metals.

It was a bit short on time at just 30 minutes and a full hour may have been needed in order to flesh out some of the many issues raised.

Christian recently accused GATA of being "a group that makes money by basically bilking gold investors out of fees to support GATA so they don't have to get legitimate jobs."

In the aftermath of the debate, GATA secretary Chris Powell accused Christian of "graduating from his usual distortions to outright contrivance."

Most of the mainstream media has ignored GATA’s allegations and the debate was not reported.

However, an important development over the weekend was an op-ed piece by the respected Gillian Tett in the Financial Times.

Tett is an award-winning journalist and author and is the US managing editor of the Financial Times. She has been positive regarding gold and gold prices for some time due to the degree of financial and economic uncertainty in the world.

Tett wrote in Saturday’s FT that it would be “foolish” to “deride or ignore” GATA and their allegations, not regarding manipulation in the silver market, but manipulation of the gold market.

In an article entitled “Is there a shadowy plot behind gold?’ (see commentary), Tett wrote that “the idea of a central bank manipulating world markets packs an increasingly powerful emotional punch with voters.”

Gillian Tett, US Managing Editor, Financial Times

Tett acknowledged that central banks intervene in and manipulate interest rates and her article explored whether central banks might also be manipulating gold prices.

“For my money, though, I think there are at least two reasons why it would be foolish simply to deride or ignore Gata, “ Tett concluded.
Tett acknowledged that some of GATA’s points “have at least a grain of truth”.

“Even if you find it hard to believe that central bankers would be dastardly enough to create a plot – or competent enough to do what Gata claims – the fact is that global commodity markets are pretty murky, central banks are often opaque and western rhetoric about “free” markets is often hypocritical. Those issues merit far more debate, not just among journalists, but central bankers too.”

She concludes that “whatever the “truth” behind these plot tales, the one thing that is clear is that these accusations are unlikely to disappear soon. Not, at least, while the world’s economy remains so unstable and terrifying for ordinary mortals. Or, possibly, until that gold price really soars.”
 
Tett’s FT article may signal the beginning of a real debate about the allegations that GATA has made and that have yet to be rebutted.

It is an important debate as increasingly governments and central banks are distorting financial markets and the free market through constant interventions in markets.
In the western world, we have seen interest rates cut close to zero, capital injections and bailouts, lending guarantees, saving and deposit guarantees, favouring certain banks and institutions over others,  banning short selling and now the latest intervention is the absurd - consideration of banning sovereign credit ratings.

At the same time competitive currency devaluations are taking place globally with central banks debasing currencies and outright intervention in currency markets in order to lower the value of national and supranational currencies.

Japan is the glaring example of this and Switzerland’s recent ‘pegging’ of the Swiss franc was in the same vein.

With governments surreptitiously and openly manipulating their currencies, it would seem like the logical that some governments might have an interest in not seeing gold and silver prices soar.

Surging gold and silver prices are a vote of no confidence in fiat paper currencies and government and central banks stewardship of these currencies. This is especially the case with the US dollar as the global reserve currency and all governments have an interest in maintain faith in the dollar and in fiat currencies which is a possibly motive for intervention in the gold and silver markets.

The ‘Great Gold and Silver Debate’ is set to continue. It is an important debate that all investors, savers and market participants should be aware of as it has obvious ramifications with regard to preserving and growing wealth in the coming years.

For the latest news and commentary on financial markets and gold please follow us on Twitter

NEWS

(Reuters) -- Gold inches up on hopes for Europe debt deal
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/us-markets-precious-idUSTRE78M...

(Bloomberg) -- Gold Climbs Amid Concern Europe Won’t Find Debt Crisis Solution at Summit
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-24/gold-declines-as-european-debt-...

(Bloomberg) -- EU Rules Out ECB Help in Boosting Fund
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-23/eu-sees-progress-on-banks-conse...

(The Times of India) -- Cost no bar to city gold rush
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bhubaneswar/Cost-no-bar-to-city-...

COMMENTARY

(Zero Hedge) -Dalio: "There Are No More Tools In The Tool Kit" - Charlie Rose Interviews Head Of World's Biggest Hedge Fund
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/ray-dalio-there-are-no-more-tools-tool-kit...

(Gold-Eagle) -- The Five Myths Of Silver Investing
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/jordan102011.html

(Mineweb) -- GATA gold/silver suppression spat with Jeff Christian getting personal
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page72068?oid=138052&sn=D...

(King World News) -- Jim Rickards - Western Gold Policy Threat to National Security
http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/KWN_DailyWeb/Entries/2011/10/21_J...

The Great Silver Debate - Manipulation: Fact or Fiction? - GATA vs. CPM Group
http://www.youtube.com/GoldCoreLimited

(Financial Times) -- Gillian Tett - Is there a shadowy plot behind gold?
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/90effa18-faa3-11e0-8fe7-00144feab49a.html...

 

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Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:53 | 1803728 choorles
choorles's picture

for all your silver and revolutionary news www.silverrevolucion.com

nice

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:20 | 1803797 Silver Shield
Silver Shield's picture

I wrote the Silver Bullet and the Silver Shield when silver was $31 an ounce in February.

Since then it has been read by 350,000+ readers and translated into 7 different languages.

ALL of the fundemental reasons for investing is Physical Silver in that article are more powerful now, then back then.

Those that continue to be momentum monkeys in a doomed, rigged, paper, ponzi game will never get what is truly at foot here.

Those that do understand, smile and stack knowing that all of the plot twists are meaningless to the end of the story where silver remains the single best investment opportunity in human history.

If you doubt me, read Silver Bullet and the Silver Shield.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:53 | 1803868 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

I hope you at least have some gold to save your ass when you are shown to be wrong on silver.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:21 | 1803961 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Combat has been initiated!!!!!!!!!!!

"First they laugh at you, then they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win." - Gabdhi

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 12:27 | 1804717 4horse
4horse's picture

please xcuse . . .
but have perhaps lately had enough seeing this particular mahatma, most especially in preference to its clearer and of course much-earlier original:

All truth passes through three stages: first, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; third, it is accepted as being self-evident   --mostly, no doubt, because those opposed have long-since passed it off as their own

so, whatever one may ultimately think of gandhi--  winning --anything, having to do with the idea of what's willed as ever if even real . . .  would seem rather to keep this schopenhauer in mind

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:35 | 1804016 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Stupid.  What do you think silver is going to do in the next twelve months?  Go from 1:52 priced in gold to 1:100?  You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:42 | 1804031 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Hehe. Well, that depends. I did give my 'prediction' on silver for the next year on my blog, in commentary upon this video, which I linked a bit a bit lower in this post.

You are entitled to your opinion of me being a fool. :)

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:45 | 1804045 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Well as for my own predictions, in the medium term they manange to hammer paper silver anywhere from $25 - $30/oz to extract themselves from their shorts.  But this is meaningless as the physical buying out of Asia at these levels is frantic.  Above ground metal dries up and disappears.  Then in later 2012 or early 2013 silver resumes its march towards $100/oz and much higher..

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:01 | 1804080 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

My eventual price estimation for silver, after the collapse of the economy, is about $10-30, in today's terms.

btw, nice avatar, Ezra Pound.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:14 | 1804129 fonestar
fonestar's picture

Thanks.  In any case, the paper silver price will not reflect the reality around it but I doubt they can take it quite that low.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:42 | 1804226 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

I was talking about the real silver price. Anyhow. We shall see what we shall see.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 11:04 | 1804342 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

It could even go as low as 5 bucks, as that's what it costs "to dig an ounce outta the ground" according to MethMan.

Just means you get to buy more at blowout prices. Deflationary period will be short. If you hold on to paper you'll be sorry.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 14:35 | 1805283 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Agreed. let me put it this way paper < silver < gold.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:15 | 1803945 bernorange
bernorange's picture

One day, the world will sing: "I can see clearly now the fiat is gone"

www.pmbug.com

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:58 | 1804306 lookma
lookma's picture

Silver > paper is a good theme for you, stick to that.

You wouldn't want to have to address the stock to flow of silver as compared to other metals, such as why silver is mostly consumed but another metal gets hoarded by countries, central banks and the wealthy producers amongst us.

After all if you did address that other metal in such a fashion, you'd prove that "silver remains the single best investment opportunity in human history" is an incredibly  uniformed statement, and that wouldn't be good for your mindless advocacy.

Carry on, you've almost led the lemmings off the ledge!

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:23 | 1803800 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

Hmmmm. Maybe GATA's accusations do have a little credibility. The Financial Times is highly respected media outlet and the opinions of its members should be respected as such. GATA should be honoured to be recognized (if only a little) by such a prestigious newspaper. Unfortunately, GATA's conspiracy theories are a little too outlandish to warrant further attention by respected journalists, but this acknowledgement should be treasured as a worthwhile achievement, and I would like to congratulate them on this fantastic accomplishment. Well done!

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:45 | 1803844 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

We must be getting close.  FT has been variously ignoring and deriding gata for more than a decade.

 

FT were the ones who promoted the Euro relentlessly in the 1990s, so I don't know why anyone would find that rag of value given what those honourable men (dopes) have been promoting.

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:57 | 1803881 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Anyone ever heard of the London Gold Pool?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Gold_Pool

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:51 | 1804067 Odin
Odin's picture

 Yep... Part of the reason Fort Knox is empty...America's gold was stolen by banksters... Step 1: Steal much of the world's gold. Step 2: Create a bull market in gold through inflation. Step 3: Eventually destroy the world's reserve currency, sending the price of gold soaring. Step 4: With wealth and power consolidated, create a new currency and repeat.

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:43 | 1804231 BigJim
BigJim's picture

My understanding is that a lot of the US' gold during the 'London Gold Pool' period wound up in France, because Jacques Rueff saw the system was unsustainable and told de Gaul to swap USDs (earned from US imports) for specie.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 11:04 | 1804340 lookma
lookma's picture

SHHHHH, were not allowed to discuss facts, this is a GATA thread, so we have to pretend we are brain-dead monkeys and unquestioningly accept all that Big Brother, umm I mean GATA, tells us. 

Your knoweldge of histroy has no place in this thread.

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:04 | 1804104 passwordis
passwordis's picture

So GATA's "conspiracy theories" have attracted the attention of the editor of the Financial Times which you describe as a very "respected" publication and yet these same theories are too outlandish to warrant further attention by "respected journalists"

 

Well said!  Bravo!

 

BTW, What exactly is a "respected journalists" these days? Perhaps the highly respected Anderson Cooper should take up the cause,  then these outlandish conspiracy theories might gain a measure of credibility!

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:51 | 1804277 bardot63
bardot63's picture

The comment that "GATA's conspiraracy theories are a little too outlandish to warrant further attention" clearly shows someone hasn't  read the data compiled by GATA.  No less a central banker than Alan Greenspan has admitted to the facts of GATA's charges.

... on July 24, 1998, Greenspan told the House Banking Committee: "Central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise." He repeated that statement a few days later to the Senate Agriculture Committee:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/testimony/1998/19980724.htm

Beyond that,  it is absolutely disastrous to accept as truth that governments have your individual liberties and best interests at heart, and that the "highly respected" financial media is not part of that scam.  Who says FT is a "highly respected" publication?  Since when have financial establishment publications ever been first to sound the alarms?   I recognize the old yellow journalistic practice of "trading truth for access."  As a retired reporter, and I can tell you those who criticize that practice are never welcomed by the mass media. Except in this case, FT can't even get the access to the central banks that GATA has fought for and won.  If FT, or any of the mainstream financial media, is so "respected," then what does anyone need with a Zero Hedge?  Who is it that has a stake in holding the exchange rate of gold down, against all free market principles?   Who is it that benefits from a low gold value?  The answer is money printers and those who profit from money printing who also control or advertise in mass media.   Yes, gold has been rising constantly in nominal terms, but is that not markets overpowering government? Isn't government slowly losing control over markets, as headlines around the world indicate? Or do those headlines indicate governments know what they are doing?  And the larger question:  does government truly have the citizenry as a primary concern, or is the primary concern to maintain power over people?  US Fed intervention in what should be free stock markets and free bond markets is well known and accepted as fact, so why is intervention and meddling in what should be a free gold market so difficult to believe?  Why is that a conspiracy while interest rates at zero, destroying the lives of millions of savers, is not a conspiracy?  And would some gold producers actually go along with government's price rigging?  Evidence from GATA's lawsuit against JP Morgan --tesitmony from a Barrick Gold exec,  exposed Barrick Gold's participation with the US govt as a colluder in price fixing. Barrick claimed to be an agent of the US Fed.   It's right there in the extensive  research, from a source no less than a federal court:  

"Barrick claimed that, in borrowing gold from central banks through Morgan Chase, Barrick became the agent for central bank gold policy; that, as the agent of central banks, the company could not properly be sued without also suing the real parties in interest, the central banks, as well; and that, since the central banks, as the agencies of sovereign governments, have immunity and could not be made party to the Blanchard suit, the suit should be dismissed:

http://www.lemetropolecafe.com/img2003/memoformotiontodis.pdf

To believe GATA's work  is just a conspiracy theory is to believe government has the best interest of individual freedom at heart, and to believe that government does not meddle in the gold/silver markets is to believe gold/silver are the only markets they do not attempt to control.  And that would be, and is, an absurd belief. 

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 11:16 | 1804379 lookma
lookma's picture

Yeah I know, GATA's not so much conspiracy theory as its just plain STUPID.

 

BTW idiots, on a Motion to Dismiss the Plaintiff's well pled factual allegations are accepted as true and the Court then decides if their is an actionable claim based on those alleged facts.  So no retards, the Motion to Dismiss doesn't involve any admissions, its juts shows how manipulative GATA is - "lets plead a crazy claim, which the USG will obviously to file a Motion to Dismiss on and win, and then we can go around and claim to all the fools who don't know any better that the Motion to Dismiss is proof of our allegations."

I'm sorry if you are too dumb or uniformed to understand what a Motion to Dismiss is all about, but if you did understand it you would painfully cringe at how misleading and manipulative GATA was.

 

Its not hard to live the good life - buy physical gold and turn on your brain, elementary thinking is a remarkably robust immuniationization against the GATA contagion of stupids. 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 13:12 | 1804912 Golden Showers
Golden Showers's picture

You're right. It's stupid and we're retards. Thanks for helping me avoid tarnishing my loafers in this pile of GATA dog shit.

While you're at it, could you just drape your coat of arms over your keyboard and shut the fuck up?

I was reading this thread with some interest until you hurt my feelings. Thank you.

PS I like information and from all sides. It helps me turn on my brain. But now I think I'll take the BAR exam, thanks to you.

Oh, shit, my soup got cold!

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 14:01 | 1804944 4horse
4horse's picture

Yeah I know . . . its [sic] just plain STUPID.

BTW idiots, on a Motion to Dismiss  .  .  .  their is [idiocy]

 
So no retards . . . its juts [sic] shows how this dis missive if not juts dyslexia makes thinks what {It's hard to live the good life - buy}dis missive  . . .is - "lets plead a crazy

 

which the USG will obviously to [sic] file a Motion to . . . "

I'm sorry if you are too dumb or uniformed [sic] like to file such a suit in those stoopid suits . . . but if you did understand it you would painfully cringe

Its [sic] . . .hard to live the good life - buy. . .your brain, elementary thinking is. . . immuniationization [sic] against the. . .contagion of stooopids.

 

Yeah I know . . . it's catchy. yet they iz no shots against stoopid

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:54 | 1803730 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'The ‘Great Gold and Silver Debate’ is set to continue. It is an important debate that all investors, savers and market participants should be aware of as it has obvious ramifications with regard to preserving and growing wealth in the coming years.'

There is no debate. There are only those who understand, and those you blindly accept fiat as valuable.

Gillian Tett was on with Hugh Hendry when he famously told Jeffrey Sachs that it was time to panic. Good to see someone at FT at least trying.

Lastly, Christian is an absolute ponce. I stopped listening in 2009...

... that bitch is either clueless or criminal or both.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:33 | 1804008 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"That day the U.S. announced that the dollar would be devalued by 10 percent. By switching the yen to a floating exchange rate, the Japanese currency appreciated, and a sufficient realignment in exchange rates was realized. Joint intervention in gold sales to prevent a steep rise in the price of gold, however, was not undertaken. That was a mistake.”

The above comments from: "The Wall Street Journal reports tomorrow that former Federal Reserve Board Chairman Paul Volcker has become a close adviser to the Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama. So it may be good for gold’s friends to see the following quotation from Volcker’s memoirs, which, as far as we can tell, have been published only in excerpts and only in The Nikkei Weekly in Japan, this particular excerpt having been published on November 15, 2004. Volcker wrote of the events of February 12, 1973."

There is no debate... Volcker clearly admits that the Fed should have intervened in the gold mkts to stop gold from rising against fiat currencies. imo, this is an admission that the Fed's/CB's normal policy of intervention in gold mkts was not taken and goes a long way toward explaining why gold did not skyrocket when the Swiss Franc was recently pegged to the Euro.

What debate? Why debate what is obvious?

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:54 | 1803732 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

100:1 rigged.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:56 | 1803741 silver4me
silver4me's picture

RT video (3min) talking about what happens when you want a gold back currency http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN0aNsA9ALg

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:57 | 1803743 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

 

"graduating from his usual distortions to outright contrivance."

down on the farm contrivance = lies (or b.s.).   i wish he wouldn't have given him the benefit of the nicer terminology.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:57 | 1803744 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

You mean "governments are failing in their interventions." after trillions spent and monetized shouldn't unemployment be at zero like say...as mainland China claims? In other words "price suppression" is just code for "nobody's got an income anymore." all the gold in the world can't change that--although all the oil in the world sure can.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:58 | 1803747 HD
HD's picture

There is not one market that is not being manipulated at this point. TPTB will do anything to keep the game going including lie, cheat and steal for as long as they can. In the end it won't matter...you can't re-inflate a popped balloon.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 07:58 | 1803749 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

GATA are on the money, but sadly, Bill Murphy did not crucify Jeff Christian. Christian in fact came away looking the better of the two. Frustrating when you look back at the video evidence where he blurted out the 100s-1 paper manipulation of the gold market. Christian is part of the problem. Next time use Adrian Douglas, he's a much better speaker. However to be fair, the framework for the debate was dreadful. The Irish idiot in the middle loved to sound of his own voice.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:12 | 1803776 aleph0
aleph0's picture

Yep, Murphy did more damage than good IMO.

He simply should have used the Hunt Bros. as the perfect example of the  power the BigBanksters wield over "margin levels".
Actually, Im getting a bit fed up with GATA ... they should  by now  , have  a solid & watertight paper-trail ( displayed on their website ) of all of the many events that we have probably  all witnessed.
He mentioned the recent Chinese Cables ...  that is not proof, just the opinion of the Chinese.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:12 | 1803779 sunnydays
sunnydays's picture

Part of the reason why Jeff Christian came out better than Murphy is because of how Kitco set up the viewing of the debate.

 

They set it up with subliminal messaging suggestion.

 

Notice above the split screen, they set it up where they filmed Murphy with black drapes behind him - (which makes people doubt truth and honesty) and with Jeff they filmed him with the white screen behind him (which suggest truth and honesty and light).

 

People when watching will doubt the "black" where as they are more open to the "white".

 

Kitco set it up... for Jeff to come out ahead in people's opinion of what he said as truth.  

 

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:29 | 1803812 Xinu
Xinu's picture

If you ever have the mis-fortune of visiting the Kitco forums (especially the silver forum), it is overwhemingly stacked with Jeff Christian clones and banker shills. It's like a bizarro world where common knowledge is constantly disputed. Banning is quite common...

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:23 | 1803972 fiftybagger
fiftybagger's picture

Kitco, the home of the infamous Jon Nadler, the Robert Prechter of gold, who has been consistently wrong for so long he makes a stopped clock look like the Oracle of Delphi

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:08 | 1804116 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Xinu... I have heard nothing of the Kitco lawsuit, iniated by the Canadian Gov, for tax evasion.

It was big news a while back... but nothing recently. I was hopeing that Kitco would go the way of buggy whip manufacturers.

Any news on this?

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 12:08 | 1804644 Xinu
Xinu's picture

I haven't heard a thing about that since it was annouced this past summer.  I'm still hoping they just go away - I know, personally, I have no use for them.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:18 | 1803954 sunnydays
sunnydays's picture

More info on the subliminal message of who to believe during the debate.

 

http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com/2011/10/kitco-bill-murphy-gata...

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:45 | 1803838 Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

Hmm. I am in agreement that the POG is manipulated. However the futures market paper to gold trading ratio should be considered in the light that most of the people who buy that paper, do so the trade the price of goldm and don't actually want the gold.

 

It is similar to what happens in many other markets.

 

Of course, gold should be different, being what it is.

 

Fwiw someone asked my opinion on the video yesterday, and I gave it in my comments on my latest post.

 

http://blogs.fin24.com/Motley.Fool/primer-for-central-banks-on-how-to-su...

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:12 | 1804125 passwordis
passwordis's picture

  Exactly.  Bill Murphy is just not very articulate and he's acted silly and goofy in previous clips I've seen. Why is he representing GATA ,at these functions, when Adrian Douglas is on the team?   Know your strengths and weaknesses.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:02 | 1803754 Mr. Mandelbrot
Mr. Mandelbrot's picture

"Gold and oil never flow in the same direction."  -Another, 1999

Tue, 10/25/2011 - 19:03 | 1803858 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

 

Gadhaffi might dispute that now that Libya's gold has been "liberated" !

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:04 | 1803758 i-dog
i-dog's picture

"bullion banks and central banks may be intervening in free markets and surreptitiously manipulating gold and silver prices and keeping them artificially low."

No shit, Sherlock!?!

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:40 | 1803831 GoldBricker
GoldBricker's picture

Yeah, duh.

The price of money, the interest rate, is the most important single price in the economy and controlling that is official policy. Controlling the gold price (in this case, having it rise in an orderly fashion instead of disorderly) is a necessary corollary to that. Of course they do it; it's their job, just like a million other things they do but don't admit to because they're contrary to American Values or whatever.

If there is any significance to a piece like this one, it's that some event is getting close. A few people like G. Tett, who are usually totally conventional (her employer is a Rothschild-owned newspaper), is slipping quietly off the boat before it hits the iceberg in order to salvage some credibility later on.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:07 | 1803767 Mr.Sono
Mr.Sono's picture

that was weak on both ends.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:12 | 1803778 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

No one in the lamestream media should be surprised.

It is general knowledge that central banks manage currency prices, often in coordination with other CB's.

Of course they attempt to manage gold too, since it is just another currency. However the CB's can never admit to gold being a currency.

If CB's ever admitted that gold were a currency then there would be the biggest gold melt up ever seen.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:16 | 1803788 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Denial in this case is akin to denial in skydiving when your chute fails to open, while you are flying you can tell yourself a good many things to keep the dream alive but in time reality will make the required corrections to the delusion....

Wed, 10/26/2011 - 03:32 | 1811409 4horse
4horse's picture

Funny how fallin

Feels like flyin . . .

                                           for a little while

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFCwSd5kr_k 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:18 | 1803790 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

The telling point in the debate was when Christian tried to discredit Maguire; killing the messenger to deflect from the message.  Maguire called JPM's manipulations spot on before they actually occurred.  The best evidence, however,  is the  consistent waterfall declines on the Kitco charts; markets don't sell off that way without a significant news event as a catalyst.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:44 | 1803841 breezer1
breezer1's picture

i like buckler's stuff...


In any discussion of the future of Gold, or of the price of Gold, the first thing that must be realized is that Gold is a POLITICAL metal. In the true meaning of the word, its price is "governed".

This is so for the very simple reason that Gold in its historical role as a currency is fundamentally incompatible with the modern worldwide financial system.

Up until August 15, 1971, there has never in history been an era when no paper currency was linked to Gold. The history of money is replete with instances of coin clipping, printing, debt defaults, and the other attendant ills of currency debasement. In all other eras of history, people could always escape to other currencies, whose Gold backing remained intact. But since 1971, there is NO escape because NO paper currency has any link to Gold.

All of the economic, monetary, and financial upheaval since 1971 is a direct result of this fact.

The global paper currency system is very young. It depends for its continued functioning on the BELIEF that the debt upon which it is based will, someday, be repaid. The one thing, above all others, that could shake that faith, and therefore the foundations of the modern financial system itself, is a rise (especially a sharp rise) in the U.S. Dollar price of Gold.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:49 | 1803852 JPMorgan
JPMorgan's picture

Did Andrew Maguire worked as PM trader at Goldman?

If this guy had been working in the industry for 40 years I think it's important they prove it with some hard evidence.

Otherwise his creditability is always going to be called into question. 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 08:55 | 1803875 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

Hey MillionDollarBonus, you patronising fuck.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:19 | 1803957 Ted Baker
Ted Baker's picture

IT'S WELL KNOWN THAT GOLDMAN AND IN PARTICULAR JP MORGAN HAVE BEEN MANIPULATING THE GOLD AND SILVER MARKETS FOR SOME TIME NOW...

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:24 | 1803978 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

With most currencies involved in a hell bent race to the bottom, CBs have more so than ever turned to gold as their currency.  And when you are busy buying a particular asset the last thing you want to see is the price rise on you.  So of course they are doing everything possible to keep that price low and stable while they back up the truck and load up.  Wall Street institutions do this all the time. 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:35 | 1804009 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

CB manipulation is the past and this is the future, from the link below:

"This new Canadian silver commemorative coin is legal tender with a value of $20. It is available for the official price of only $20. You simply exchange $20 from your wallet for a $20 coin of pure 99.99% silver."

http://www.mint.ca/store/product/product_exchange.jsp?itemId=prod1040001&rcmeid=EMSx310x3391&EMS_MID=EMSx310x3391

Canada is producing a $20 Legal Tender Silver coin. Silver content value at current spot price $8.83. The RCM must be thinking Silver has some upside potential? Mexico is also trying to develop a Legal Tender Silver coin based on a floating spot price value.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:01 | 1804099 earnulf
earnulf's picture

And the public says "YES".   200K mintage is sold out.     There is proof positive that folks want money that has a real value to it.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:45 | 1804044 notadouche
notadouche's picture

Anyone care to discuss the so called demise of Silvercorp.  How about an update from ZH.  That was all the rage a month or so ago.  

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 20:21 | 1806523 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

silvercorp got a clean bill of health from KPMG's forensic unit. Share price shot up.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 09:58 | 1804092 Payable on Death
Payable on Death's picture

Anybody hear of bitcoin? Worthwhile?

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:38 | 1804211 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Out of the old fiat frying pan and into the new electronic fiat fire...

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:48 | 1804256 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

I am a bit torn on that.  One, it is just digital money right now and there is a "cap" on how much will be "created" and I don't know how the numbers are decided for this cap and who actually decides it, etc.  To mine it there are people that have rooms full of computers so you'd have to run a computer on end just to try to "mine" some and you'd be competing with a lot of people that are well ahead of you and have massive CPU power. Also, while the proponents say this won't happen, I don't like digital money because there is a chance it can be easily manipulated.  Plus where can you use a bitcoin in the world?  Can you see them?  Touch them?  What happens if there is a blackout...how are you going to buy water with a bitcoin?

 

I like the premise however and if one participates now they can have a head start on all the people that still aren't informed.  This is the first attempt as far as I know so maybe they will become more common and the next version will be more secure and self-regulated (that is one thing I find hard to believe in any market most of the time).

 

The real anwser is what can you use bitcoins for?  People are trying to use them to circumvent the fiat system to do blackmarket and potentially nefarious transactions.  It is like trying to reinvent the wheel...or recreate gold and silver in a digital form. 

 

So one can place a small bet on bitcoin and try to "mine" some but the "price" of them has swung a huge amount in the recent past and guess what...some people made out big and others lost out big.  If you think the FX markets are wacky try dealing with a "currency" that doesn't even really exist.  Or try using Lindens first to see if you can deal with those as they've been around longer.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 14:33 | 1805276 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

I was thinking about BitCoin one day.  Should I buy some, or should I try to 'mine' some, etc.  Of course it occurred to me that there would be others with more computing power, that electricity can't be paid for with Bitcoin, but lastly, that it could be manipulated, being  a digital currency.  I decided to hold off.  In the next 4 weeks Bitcoin flew to the moon, $29 per, from something like $10 or $12 per, and I was more than  a little upset.  Then there was the crash, where it went to .01 or whatever, and now its $3.

So yeah, thinking it through, and thinking better of it, definitely paid off in this case. Sure, I could have picked up some pennies in front of a steamroller, but thats not my idea of a good time.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 14:39 | 1805304 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

If you live in a dorm and don't have to pay for your electricity usage and you already have the gear, then cool...  rock and roll...  but bitcoining at this juncture is a loss being tried to make up for with volume... 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:29 | 1804132 moonstears
moonstears's picture

"We buy gold" signs tell the tale, when compared to "We sell gold". Take a drive and see what I mean. What are Govts and central banks keeping as wealth? Currency they can readily conjure? What are HNW individuals keeping as wealth preservers? AAPL? I say, I hope they slam gold to $1000 and silver at 8 bucks would make my Christmas, and it's not 'cause I "hate" the metals.

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 10:50 | 1804196 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture
From Lars Schall's Matterhorn Asset Management and Gold Switzerland - Nomi Prins and Wesley Legrand

 

Market Manipulation and the Second Great Depression

In an exclusive interview for Matterhorn Asset Management, Lars Schall discusses with financial journalist Nomi Prins from the United States and fund manager Wesley Legrand from Australia issues related to the precious metal markets, central bank policies, and the parallels between our days and the age of the Great Crash / Great Depression. Unfortunately, “we’ve just haven’t learned.”

 

http://goldswitzerland.com/index.php/market-manipulation-and-the-second-...

 

Mon, 10/24/2011 - 20:58 | 1806644 Youri Carma
Youri Carma's picture

Well, let the debate about gold manipulation start and here is my part: Chew on this one!


William S. White June stipulated in 2005 ( head of the Monetary and Economic Department of the Bank of International Settlements in Basel ):

"One of the five main purposes of central bank cooperation is the provision of international credits and joint efforts to influence asset prices – especially gold and foreign exchange – in circumstances where this might be thoughtful."

Australian Central Bank 2003:

"Foreign currency reserves and gold are held primarily to support intervention in the foreign exchange markets!"

Dutch central bankster Nout Wellink (CFR member and Bilderberger) always said to his colleagues:

“There are two thing you can lie about as central banker, gold and interest rates.”

Jim Rickards about Gold Manipulation:

“We call it market manipulation the central banks simply call it policy.” 

MEGA MARKET MANIPULATION II (Google translated from Dutch) http://tinyurl.com/dgw9f8

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!