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Game Theory Over: Bank Of France's Noyer Says Britain Should Be Downgraded, Not France

Tyler Durden's picture


To anyone who doubted that the gloves are now fully off between France and Britain, we bring you exhibit A: Speaking in an interview with local newspaper Le Telegramme de Brest to be published later on Thursday, Bank of France head and ECB member Christian Noyer said that a downgrade of France's AAA credit rating would not be justified and ratings agencies are making decisions based more on politics than economics and questioned whether the use of ratings agencies to guide investors was still valid. "In the arguments they (ratings agencies) present, there are more political arguments than economic ones," said Noyer, the head of the Bank of France and a member of the ECB's governing council. "The downgrade does not appear to me to be justified when considering economic fundamentals," Noyer said. "Otherwise, they should start by downgrading Britain which has more deficits, as much debt, more inflation, less growth than us and where credit is slumping." The bolded sentence confirms two things: i) that the Nash equilibrium in Europe is now fatally broken, because when you have the head of one central bank doing all he can to throw another central bank under the bus, that's pretty much game (theory) over; and ii) when he said that "the agencies have become incomprehensible and irrational. They threaten even when states have taken strong and positive decisions. One could think that the use of agencies to guide investors is no longer valid." it proves that this amateur has no more understanding of basic finance than your generic Reuters blogger, both of whom apparently fail to comprehend that there are several hundred thousand bond and loan indentures in the real world, not the world of "S&P has no credibility so ignore it", which are loaded with covenants discussing springing liens, rating indexed interest levels and collateral thresholds, all of which are based on a sovereign and corporate rating, and all come into play in a completely unpredictable way (hint AIG - the reason why AIG imploded was because a rating agency downgrade unleashed a terminal margin call) when there is a rating downgrade. Such as that of France in a few hours to days top.

So, please, spare us: let us at least assume you are a bunch of finance hacks who have no idea what is going on when it comes to corporate credit ratings and keep your mouth shut, than open it, and prove us right. That goes double for members of the ECB who are apparently so blinded with chauvinistic rage that they have forgotten the most elementary things about modern corporate finance. Or perhaps, far morely likely, they never really knew it...

Which, incidentally, explains why we are all about to enter the latest and greatest global cataclysm (to borrow a word from Alain Juppe).

And lastly, if it is indeed Britain who ends up being downgraded, and suddenly every bond vigilante in the whole world comes sniffing and asking questions about those trillions and trillions of rehypothecated "assets" sloshing around within the terminally unregulated and abysmally lax framework of the isles, only to find just how shockingly deep the rabbit hole goes, who does France think will be nuked from financial orbit first?


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Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:16 | 1981656 voshnishki
voshnishki's picture

All ma bitchez love me.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:54 | 1981825 Real Money Wins
Real Money Wins's picture

The short version of this article is " Le Whine , Le Snivel, Le Whaaa, Why didn't they down grade the other guys, I hate you and I hate them, Le Whine, Le Snivel, Le Whaaa"!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:28 | 1981949 sitenine
sitenine's picture

Whining aside, they will both be downgraded, with good reason.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:49 | 1982004 HoofHearted
HoofHearted's picture

I know Christian Noyer, have been around him several times. And this doesn't surprise me at all.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:19 | 1982201 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Whoa whoa whoa ...

I only read as far as "de breast" ... and expected RoboTraders's rights to post pics had been restored.

I mean, this is bullish, right?



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:56 | 1982248 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Exactly the kind of response the UK expected to elicit from the eurozone.

Yes, France is toast.

It aint called FRENCH TOAST for nothing!

Had an argument earlier today with someone. I knew I'd be stared at like a lunatic if I started going through the hassle of informing about global economic collapse, how it will be worse than when the house of Bardi went bankrupt, about the NDAA just passed and so on.  I got the expected stare, and couldn't figure why people just plain won't listen.

Then I recalled reading about economic collapse in Europe prior to WW2.  About how some people, specifically in Germany, tried to warn whom they considered friends and colleagues of what was about to happen. They also suggested to them to keep their wealth in PMs. They were brushed of as paranoids, lunatics. Their "friends" would reply that such an "end of the world" scenario could NEVER happen in Europe. And much less in Germany, since the German Imperial elite would NEVER allow such madness (hyperinflation of the Mark) to their beloved German people. 

When the shit eventually did hit the fan, those who had tried to warn in vain their "friends and colleagues" were swiftly trained to concentration camps.  Their PMs confiscated.  Their homes and assets sold at bargain prices to those who had refused to listen to them.   And yes, it was mostly their "friends and colleagues" who denounced them.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 03:21 | 1982351 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

It aint called FRENCH TOAST for nothing!

Soon to be renamed, FREEDOM TOAST!  We don't have congress for nothing.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 18:37 | 1985258 tooktheredpill
tooktheredpill's picture

this is awesome. who said that economics was boring. wife swapping parties at the last eu meeting, sarkozy apparently unleashing on cameron and now this. Its been quite a year.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:15 | 1983457 BigJim
BigJim's picture

You're saying that there were concentration camps in the Weimar period, where goldbugs got sent? References, please.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 15:25 | 1984324 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

No, those came later as we all know, but it had probably been planed long in advace.

The new mark solved nothing, as the underlying issues had not been addressed. To further worsen the situation, Germany loaded up on MORE debt.

Rather than face reality and experience a revolution like the one which literally toppled Louis XVI's head, the german Imperial elite, under the advise of the Vatican, instructed the newly elected chancellor to tighten the nooze on the goldbugs by fully discharging onto them full blame for all of Germany's ailments.

Kristallnacht was followed by further economic and political persecution of Jews.

The 500,000 Jews in Germany, who accounted for only 0.76% of the overall population, were singled out by the Nazi propaganda machine as an enemy within who were responsible for Germany's defeat in the First World War and for her subsequent economic difficulties, such as the 1920s hyperinflation and Great Depression

The German historian Hans Mommsen in a 1997 interview claimed that a major motive for the pogrom was the desire of the Gauleiters of the NSDAP to seize Jewish property and businesses.[14] Mommsen was quoted as saying: "The need for money by the party organization stemmed from the fact that Franz Xaver Schwarz, the party treasurer, kept the local and regional organizations of the party short of money. In the fall of 1938, the increased pressure on Jewish property nourished the party's ambition, especially since Hjalmar Schacht had been ousted as Reich minister for economics.

Kristallnacht changed the nature of persecution from economic, political, and social to the physical with beatings, incarceration, and murder.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 05:06 | 1982424 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Is he the arrogant, political animal prick he appears to be? This one looks like a ~courtisan~ ready to do anything to attrack the favors of the Prince. I am curious to know if this psychological profile is close to reality? Trichet despite all his shortcomings looked like he still had a human side, this Noyer guy looks like he has none on top of everything.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 07:54 | 1982529 johny2
johny2's picture

He may be all that and more, but he is right about rating agencies and about UK. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:30 | 1982954 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

I am not arguing about that, we all know that, rating agencies are never telling us anything that we really do not know already. Usually when rating agencies are announcing anything.... well it is way too late.  Fitch is a bit better, Fitch was warning about China back in 2010 and again in June this year while base metals bulls were sleeping at the wheel.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:34 | 1983548 johny2
johny2's picture

Fitch are owned by the French company, but they are all compliant in a big pyramid scheme involving fiat currency and fractional banking.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:12 | 1982067 markmotive
markmotive's picture

Pot, meet kettle.

BTW, please take the 2012 best investment poll:

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:31 | 1982110 MiddleageThinni...
MiddleageThinninghair's picture

I think this commentary is much more serious that someone whining.  To me the mentality is even more childish because he is contesting that since now the rating agencies are not in favour of his personal agenda / opinion that it is to be discredited.  It is highly concerning that someone in this position would chose to openly display such childish sandbox mentality as to degrade the foundation of human credibility.


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:02 | 1982175 TK7936
TK7936's picture

Mr Noyer has correctly identified that rating agencies are rather nonsensical if you compare there ratings between Nations in this case France and Britain. The Author seems to think that because a British downgrade could fire the Death Stars primary weapon on earth it is best that rating agencies simply ignore facts and play bully with the ones who actually wouldn't take the planet down with them so it appears like there doing there job. A very perverted thought chain. The justification for this strategy is dripping from the authors Ho Ho like Cream from a Twinkie. Makes me want to call the bluff and say go ahead, shoot yourself. Millions of people already have nothing to loose thanks to these parasitic bullshitters so it would just be good karma to level the field.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:16 | 1982195 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

M.A.D. is no way to live................

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 17:48 | 1985062 TK7936
TK7936's picture

I guess all is well then. Carry on.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:33 | 1982977 twotraps
twotraps's picture

well done

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 07:19 | 1982502 fourchan
fourchan's picture

have they learned nothing?


ratings are bought not earned.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:58 | 1981828 The Fonz
The Fonz's picture

This may be relevant. The person that reworked the SP rating system to increase the political aspect of ratings has just left SP.  I think its interesting this person is no longer with them. Was he ousted by political pressure, is this to keep the downgrades from coming?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 09:50 | 1981919 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

...and ratings agencies are making decisions based more on politics than economics and questioned whether the use of ratings agencies to guide investors was still valid.

Thinking of Fanny and Freddie and others I must say he has a point there...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:37 | 1982997 twotraps
twotraps's picture

I agree with you but where in any corportate finance or ANY financial entity rules/bylaws is there a QE or TARP provision?  Sorry, the ratings agencies are as full of shit as ever, conveniently coming out now 'just doing their job' so forget a reasonable arguement there.....but politics, at the country level might be factored in because they are the wild card.  So much so that if you ever thought politics would play such a day to day role in the bond market----------would you Ever have invested in Munis??  Less likely or in much smaller amounts due to uncertainty.  They are all full of shit and just pissed that there is a bright light on their game.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:18 | 1981663 navy62802
Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:20 | 1981675 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

It is like the kettle calling the pot black.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:52 | 1981811 Saro
Saro's picture

Well zen have a nap . . . zen fire ze missiles!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:19 | 1981668 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Fuck all the paper-pushing fucknuts.  Time to find out precisely what everyone's labor (and "wealth" for the matter) is really worth.  About bloody time.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:33 | 1981731 Mikehy
Mikehy's picture

Oh God I hope I don't ever have to find out what my labor is really worth!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:43 | 1981773 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Perhaps it's worth the same as the Chinese. The Walmart employees over there live in animal cages. Perhaps that's the true value of the labor of Walmart employees.

The ultimate goal of globalization is the equalization of living standards across the globe. The wealthy nations' workers will suffer a severe reduction in living standards while those of the poorer nations will see a steep increase in theirs. That's the way globalization works. It seeks equilibrium. What we call this is karma, coming back to bite the American voter in the balls ... because that's where this all began, with the American voter.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:52 | 1981808 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

American Voter....

You must be referring to Diebold Machines

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:32 | 1982116 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:31 | 1982224 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture


I moved to Alaska not a year ago.

Everyone I know thinks I am crazy.

I see it coming. I did my homework. I am quite happy with my fox hole.

I worry more about my extended family these days ...



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 05:22 | 1982435 Uber Vandal
Uber Vandal's picture

Just ask Homer Simpson



Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:54 | 1981812 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

A Chinese village of 20K has openly revolted against the Chinese Communist Party.  For the first time the Party has lost control of a village.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:01 | 1981857 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The Chinese revolt often.

Are you buying PM at these prices?  I am

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:20 | 1981918 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Just bought another Krugerand myself ... I will be buying all the way to the bottom.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:49 | 1982149 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

a toast to my brethren:

we will have our day

for we have fought for it

here is to us and ours

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:33 | 1982230 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I bought bulk rice this last go around. Am I missing out on something?



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:37 | 1982235 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture


Lots of it. Generic.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 03:14 | 1982348 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Make your own.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:36 | 1982994 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

As long as wages progress faster than inflation do not bet on that. Plus if the external environment of China is wayworse than Chinese internals that plays very favorably for internal politics, they can put the blame on America and Europe. So far so good for China (yes property crash and banking crisis in China but no external debt/sovereign/currency crisis)


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:08 | 1982053 navy62802
navy62802's picture

You know the funny part? While revolution is considered an essential element in the communist system, our own Founding Fathers in the USA believed that there should be a revolution once per generation so that we maintain the values necessary for an effective democracy. You won't hear that inconvenient fact mentioned at any of the stupid-ass Republican debates ... and most likely not at the Democrat debates either (if such a thing even materializes).

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:44 | 1982246 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

This is not within the nature of our species.

If it was, we wouldn't be in this situation. I doubt it will be. I am concerned with getting over the next 10 to 20 years with a society intact. I can breathe a deep sigh of relief if we do and its up to future generations at that point to pull the cart of liberty.

Most human critters are simple minded, have predictable behavior, and don't think crazy stuff unless their resources are stressed. They just want to screw, eat, imbibe, and stay comfortable. It is sort of the same way with the socio-path class, they just like power as gravy over it all.

In my mind, the greatest genius of our nation (assuming the US here) is that we all get guns. Because, in the end, if someone is really going to fuck the public over, there is a fat price tag for the rape. There are a lot of guns in the US, so picking this piece of meat apart is going to be very tricky. In the city, they are weak, but the city feeds on the nations resources.

In the rural, they produce. And they like to hunt a lot. I would love to see a mexican drug gang try to bust up rural iowa. I bet you could measure the casualties in deaths per mile on pretty much any road. Once the gloves come off, it is going to be ugly for gangs in rural areas if they can not compromise the population first.

I don't think it will be this dark, I am just having a bad day.

Vote for Ron Paul. Let us set our feet, as a nation, back on the path of liberty.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 06:53 | 1982482 Schmoo
Schmoo's picture


"In my mind, the greatest genius of our nation (assuming the US here) is that we all get guns. Because, in the end, if someone is really going to fuck the public over, there is a fat price tag for the rape. There are a lot of guns in the US, so picking this piece of meat apart is going to be very tricky."

I suspect predator drones and NDAA (if signed) will unfortunately alter that equation.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:27 | 1981946 Milton Waddams
Milton Waddams's picture

Correct.  However the objective, to avoid unrest, is to slowly lower the living standards in wealthy nations while rapidly increasing those in emerging economies.  In many respects what the 2007-2009 crisis represented was a hastening of that process, especially for the so-called wealthy nations.  A sort of glance into the end scenario.  The frightening thing to consider is what happens when the American consumer (and profligate spending of the government) is no longer considered the golden goose by the international capitalists, replaced instead by a burgeoning global consumer base / middle class?  Will the plug be pulled on America altogether?  Will the American worker's spirit be so broken that he will beg for work for what was once called 'coolie wages'?

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:48 | 1981988 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Unfortunately, I think there will be a second civil war in the US by the time this happens.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:15 | 1982073 economics1996
economics1996's picture

A lot of payback coming to the elites and privilege classes.  Affirmative Action, diversity is good, Hollywood...Just saying folks this will not go down as everyone envisions.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:52 | 1982267 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture


I used to drink beer with a retired air force officer (years ago) and he always said the same thing; we were heading for civil war/break up. I told him he was crazy, and debated why, for many years.

Today, I kind of feel maybe I was hasty and assumed too much. I am not so confident in my assumptions anymore. I don't think in those terms yet, but I appreciate the possibility now.

The system has a great deal of conflicting stress in it, wealth/vs/poverty, power/vs/minority, and so on. I also think the average volenteer is on the side of the people, which makes this more complicated.

I do know the monetary system is going to blow up, but I struggle to reach beyond that mentally. I am still coming to terms with it. I am not sure how things comes unglued past that when/if it does.

This is a hell of a shit show. Mercy on us all.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:51 | 1983051 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Agreed, if China continues its mad printing of GDP it could have a sovereign/ currency crisis instead of just a property/banking crisis. The Empoperor is far and the mountains are high as they say in China, there is real power struggle between local officials doing their stuff away from the eye of beijing, there is an old tradition in China , when nothing works, go see the Emperor directly. In somecases expropriated people were barred by local police to go take train to Beijing. I guess the central gov is going to sacrifice the few local corrupt officials (they are all systemically corrupt) and "save" the people from their local ruler.


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:53 | 1982015 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Side effect of Globalizm. Bankers are now hated globally. The global elite are now know as the world's enemies. Leave it to a bunch of inbred offspring to inherit all their parent's ideals and this is what you get.

Did Tyler sound angry? I think he sounded angry. My mother sounds that way when she loses at bingo. Has something to do with endorphines.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 05:21 | 1982434 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Adam Smith' raging come back?

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:20 | 1981672 bobert
bobert's picture

Do we want the credit agencies to do their job or not?

They have been criticized in the past for not performing as they should.

I am glad they have the downgrade pen out and are starting to apply it as appropriate.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:27 | 1981712 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

So after the the financial system implodes, due in large part to the credit agencies and NUMEROUS, conflicts of interest, they decide to proclaim their value?

How about we prosecute the fraud from the crimes already commited FIRST?

This is like the bully on the playground deciding that he wants to play fair after he has already extorted everyone.  How fucking stupid are you?

Had the credit agencies, banks, and numerous financial fucks actually been held accountable and put in real jail, then they would have a vested interest in doing their job to begin with.  NOTHING gets fixed until the fucking fraud is prosecuted, justice is served, and everyone has no doubt that the rule of law will be applied to them, no matter what position they hold.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:01 | 1982040 bobert
bobert's picture

How stupid am I?

Not very the last time that I was checked.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:17 | 1982076 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Hang eh high.  Five at a time.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:56 | 1982274 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Oh, let me translate...

Ron Paul for President.

William Black for Attorney General.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:33 | 1983537 GhostfaceCracka
GhostfaceCracka's picture

Yes, the credit rating agencies are shit and one day they must be called to account for what they did. But FIRST? We have bigger fish to fry. Let's be honest, the criticism of the rating agencies from official quarters is not because they weren't doing their jobs - they were fine with that actually - they are criticizing them when they ARE actually doing their jobs. This Frenchman has his nose out of joint because the ratings agencies are finally daring to point out the emperor has no clothes. The Obama Administration have reacted the same way to S&P when they downgraded the US. 

Whatever their misdeeds, these officials want to go after the rating agencies because they are no longer party to their war on truth, to deceive investors into pouring more good money after bad to keep financing their broke and unsustainable governments.  

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:51 | 1981807 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Do we want the credit agencies to do their job or not?

It doesn't matter if they do their jobs. Shit is shit, whether or not some "official" organization declares it as such. Eventually, there will be a soveriegn default in Europe. And when that happens, it will crash the global financial system. It doesn't matter if Greece or France or Spain or Portugal or any nation is rated AAA, AA+ or AA-. Because it's the shadow banking system that rules the day. In the shadow banking system, leverage is unlimited and regulation doesn't exist. When one tiny element of this system doesn't do what it's supposed to, a dominoe of bad shit happens. And that's where we're headed. Major banks are going to crumble into liquidation, and when that happens, all of the hyperinflation talk you've heard will come to fruition. It's only a matter of time. The key thing to remember is that the failure of the massive global investment banks will mark the beginning of hyperinflation. And that's the reason you should own gold.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:55 | 1981826 Melin
Melin's picture

Their interest is in the muzzle now.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:21 | 1981684 txsilverbug
txsilverbug's picture

Christian Noyer is a whiny little fuck who is just trying to deflect the attention over to England.  Tell ya what you whiny little bitch, why don't you worry about your own fucking problems and not so much about a country who chose not to participate in this little monetary experiment called the Euro.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:23 | 1981688 socratesplus
socratesplus's picture

noyer is a snot nosed frog

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:23 | 1981689 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Race to the bottom: countries should start downgrading Themselves. Others might retaliate by downgrading themselves through truthiness. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:35 | 1982121 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture new word for the week. Last weeks word was hypothecation... Thank You C.E.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:23 | 1981691 chump666
chump666's picture

hahahahaha 1800's Naploanic war style tensions.  Know your history, England tried to isolate France via paying countries to stay at war with the France is trying to have a go at UK isolation market style/downgrades/EU conjob meetings etc etc etc .  Problem is, GBP is bid, EUR is not.  Follow the money. 

France, you are done.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:26 | 1981943 moskov
moskov's picture

Where are you from?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:58 | 1982275 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

A good school or library ... but that is my redneck opinion.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:26 | 1983147 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

What is the point of arguing, the euro is done, so is the GBP, YEN and USD? Politicians love to see different people from different nationalities argue, that relieves the pressure. Think about weapons of mass "distraction" not destruction. Privately I am sure that Sarko and Cameron are laughing at their own population thinking: " look those idiots starting to argue with each other!! pass me the bottle of Champagne, will you Nicolas?"

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:24 | 1981695 Midwest Prepper
Midwest Prepper's picture

It's time for us to get real and, using layman's terms, explain to those less sophisticated that it's about time that the Global Financial Crisis Hits America. We are not immune....

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:25 | 1981701 My Taint
My Taint's picture

I hate Europe.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:09 | 1981882 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Come on.

We are better than the eurosnobs who occasionally come here to hate on america and remind us what stupid, primitive people we are.

Havent seen many of them over here gloating recently, not since the end of qe2

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:22 | 1981928 youLilQuantFuker
youLilQuantFuker's picture

Large breasted woman hate the Euros too.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:53 | 1982162 Kiwi Pete
Kiwi Pete's picture

I doubt those are real.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 04:17 | 1982400 Isotope
Isotope's picture

Come on guys.

No reason to be hatin' on the common man, no matter where he lives.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:26 | 1981707 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I think the U.K. AND France should be downgraded.

While they're at it, downgrade the U.S. a couple more notches.


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:32 | 1981729 txsilverbug
txsilverbug's picture

Just a couple notches?  You're feeling generous today..

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:34 | 1981963 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Isn't London, after all, the dark womb from which all things evil in banking today have been spawned? 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:24 | 1982090 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

If you're referring to Nathan Rotchschild, who was the most insidious of Mayer Amschel's 5 sons, who was dispatched to London and essentially created the model of a sovereign nation (i.e. its citizens) being bought as collateral debt serfs (purchased from a corrupt/bribed/blackmailed political body), being set up as a conduit for loansharking, then why yes, yes indeed.

After all, wouldn't a sane government having the best interests of its citizenry in mind simply decline to pay interest to any entity, and instead choose to fund its own operations, as part and parcel of the social pact it had with its citizens, at 0% interest?

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:43 | 1981716 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

But, but, but .... financial wizardry is all that Britain produces with lax rules and money laundering. Every financial criminal from Russian oligarchs to African dictators to Pakistani politicians find safe haven in London except for an occasional cup of tea laced with Polonium.  How can you take away the free hand to rape and pillage and rehypothecate?  Banksters all over the world will not survive the downgrade.

Besides, the queen will be so disappointed.  Maybe, French-owned Fitch can look to downgrade the UK but Moodys and S&P are less likely to do so.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:26 | 1981942 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

This is why French & British automakers build such reliable vehicles.

Wait, the British don't have a single domestic large volume vehicle manufacturer left (all former British auto companies are now owned by German companies), the French do, but they're propped up by Japanese alliances (mainly Nissan) which keep them alive...

...the U.S. has three, with two semi-nationalized and one that is doing okay without on the record government bail outs (those DOE and other loans sure helped, though).

You can chart a nation's demise by its ratio of engineers to bankers (especially those educated in Modern Money Mechanics, or similar fractional reserve banking Ponzinomics).

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:24 | 1983199 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Amen TruthInSunShine . This ratio is a function of time, monotonic, strictly decreasing with a lower limit of zero .

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:29 | 1981717 Big Ben
Big Ben's picture

Noyer, of course, is an idiot. Not that what he says about Britain is wrong. Just that he is willing to risk getting into a public argument where the top British and French central bankers each give valid reasons why the other country doesn't deserve a AAA rating.

Actually, in my opinion, neither country deserves any form of A rating. Nor does the US or any other country with a debt/GDP ratio greater than 100%.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:40 | 1981760 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Most large developed nations, if one takes their future entitlement obligations (but already baked into the cake, or that which they're on the hook for) into account, have real debt to GDP ratios of something closer to 1000% (or even 1800%).

As an example, Kotlikoff claims the U.S. has an actual debt of 202 trillion, while David M. Walker says it's closer to 60 trillion (but what would he know, as the former Chief Comptroller of the U.S.?):

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:07 | 1981837 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Let's add a few more viewpoints:


Dallas Federal Reserve President: US Unfunded Liabilities of over $100 Trillion

That was Dallas Federal Reserve President Richard Fisher in Feb. 2010

USdebtclock has unfunded liabilities of $116.8 trillion today and increasing at $6.5 trillion a year.  Fisher's estimate matches the US estimate within a few trillion

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:40 | 1981725 Lucius Corneliu...
Lucius Cornelius Sulla's picture

Who cares what S&P says?  The bond market and CDS market downgraded France months ago.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:32 | 1981730 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

Cameron..Fuck you Sarkozy you French midget!

Sarkozy...I am 4 foot 8 you English Cunt so I am not a midget!

Cameron..I know Irish Leprechauns taller than you you French Cunt!

Sarkozy..I hate you!

Cameron..I am off to print a few pounds, you just wish you could use one of Ben's super deluxe turbo charged Fed Hewlett packard printers, because Angie aint printing for you midget boy hahahahahah


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:34 | 1981740 chump666
chump666's picture


Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:04 | 1982287 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

OMG, I had to look it up ... he is 5'5" according to some web stuff.

That is ... pretty ... manly.

Wait, my nephew smoked him ... in fourth grade ... LMAO ...



DISCLOSURE: my nephew is taller than me now, and I am 6'3" ... my nephew is 14 in April.

OTHER DISCLOSURE: Prussian descendants

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:33 | 1981733 Ineverslice
Ineverslice's picture

Britain? Stop you're teasing me!

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:36 | 1981737 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

vive " La France"

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:34 | 1981738 txsilverbug
txsilverbug's picture

They can always sell the Eifel tower for scrap value. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 11:08 | 1983097 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Oh yeah?As a frenchman at that rate, I would prefer to have the statue of Liberty returned from NY (yes Eiffel built that too and France gave it to the US in sign of friendship for the 100 years anniversary of US independence). So US returns that piece of useless metal (since new laws just signed makes it  useless) to France then France sells it as collectible to the highest bidder. Who knows maybe China might pay a high price to put this prize in Victoria's Harbor in Hong-Kong, might plug a few billions of debt. How does that sound to you? Think before you write something.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:34 | 1981739 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Setting up the stage for WW3.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:41 | 1981767 SaudiMail
SaudiMail's picture

Against the French?  They lasted 2 weeks last time.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:19 | 1981915 Mr_Wonderful
Mr_Wonderful's picture

Correction, they plus the british army lasted two weeks last time.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:01 | 1982042 davepowers
davepowers's picture

at least the Brit Army ran away to fight another day

well, technically speaking, they ran away to get the Yanks to fight another day.

but they ran away

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 08:24 | 1982556 Heweliusz
Heweliusz's picture

And they could run away just because their retreat was protected by the French...

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 09:32 | 1982713 Dcheeth2
Dcheeth2's picture

The British Expeditionary Force was a fractional army, backed up by very little in terms or armour and air cover, the rest being kept in Britain to shore up our defences.

In the onslaught of a near 5-1 numerical advantage the Wermacht had on this "contemptible little army" (to para-phrase a WW1 saying, referring to the BEF), its no wonder we retreated in haste.

That, and the fact that the French once again, stabbed, or attempted to stab Britain in the back by sheer capitulation, left us no choice but to head on home to Blighty for some tea and Eccles Cakes.

Just a pity, we took that buffoon de Gaulle with us.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:35 | 1983552 Heweliusz
Heweliusz's picture

I'm afraid you're high on something. Your "defences" were being an island.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 12:41 | 1983553 Heweliusz
Heweliusz's picture


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:45 | 1981742 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

too little too late.


Consider all the asset classes {bonds, real estate, commodities, equities, cash}


A lot of AAA rating across all asset class  have been reduced.  The world is running out of AAA collateral for shadow banking to leverage.  .  Also, all asset classes are highly correlated now, so  there is no line of escape.  you can only run to cash {central bank swap lines}. They are all scrambling to exit @ once


safe AAA



sovereing bonds - nope

real estate - China real estate bubble popping - nope

commodities -  China hard landing - nope

Equities - BRIC economies contracting - nope.


contagion has spread to all asset classes.

Act II: massive shadow unwind commencing.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:36 | 1981748 SaudiMail
SaudiMail's picture

I downgraded France because they insist on speaking French.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:38 | 1981752 txsilverbug
txsilverbug's picture

I downgraded France because they are all whiny bitches.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:04 | 1981864 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Karma is a bitch.

France and germany started this last round of sovereign and banking scrutiny by making negative comments on usa banks and usa sovereign debt.

They alerted investors to pay attention to bank and sovereign risk, and it backfired on them.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:39 | 1981754 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

What I learned this week: 

National Association of Realtors lied their way through 5 straight years of false exsting home sales data which always moved the market to the upside. 

MF GLobal, Corzine  etc lied about comingling customer accounts and stole their money

Retailers lied about Black Friday "record breaking sales" when November retail sales data not only missed big but undershot even the month of October (!)


But the lying, falsification of data and theft is going unpunished. Why? To conceal other, bigger lies. To keep Americans in the dark. And steal more money from them.  So wake up, those of you still asleep! The state of affairs is truly catastrophic despite all the money they gave from taxpayers to the bank (and still are on a daily basis). We are in a worsening, deepening depression and they are lying when they tell you that things would have been worse without handing trillions over to the banks.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 01:41 | 1982199 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

And 2.1% YoY CPI (according to The Bernank and the BLS) and $2.00 might get you one (1) green bell pepper.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:08 | 1982291 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Well, I for one take comfort in the fact that lies fill empty stomachs. Otherwise, the elites might have a problem!



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:37 | 1982319 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

Farage pwned the EU! All that was missing was:

"Bring it on! Yo bitchez going down. We gonna go medieval on yo' ass."

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:41 | 1981768 nathan1234
nathan1234's picture

It's a joke .

Meant to provide distraction for the public.

Both are controlled by the Rothschilds and the same banking empire

Disinformation, if you please to keep the vassals busy on the wrong track

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 03:22 | 1982352 BigDuke6
BigDuke6's picture

yep. and..

Britain has a hard core of well moneyed marxist traitors who hate the place due to guilt of empire.
their leftist ideology is to its core an anti-White  neo-racist/ neo-fascist dogma .  It reeks of it from top to bottom .
It is the intellectually adolescent utopian masochistic mea-culpa Death Cult of a empire in terminal decline .

The liberal elites entire identity and persona depends upon a combination of condemning their entire society as criminal to trumpet and preen their own moral vanity .

It is a global compassion student faculty sentiment competition .

they condemn the most advanced , humanitarian and beneficial civilization in all of history as criminal , totalitarian , oppressive and barbaric .

in short - its double fucked

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:44 | 1981770 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

China flash PMI AND Japan Tankan manufacturing both miss (Tankan negative)

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:27 | 1982102 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I want to go to the empty Chinese replica of Disney Land.

I heard there are no lines. As in none. At all.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:47 | 1981791 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The game (theory) is over.  It's been over since  2008, at the latest.  The last few years have been as a car that drives into a deer frozen in the headlights:  both the driver and the deer saw it coming.

The driver was always told, "Hit the deer, for insurance purposes."  The deer couldn't help itself, it was its nature.  Now both deer and driver are dead. 

Here is you Fiat Ponzi, and the world of finance with it.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:23 | 1981931 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

A deer won't likely kill you if you hit it.  A moose on the other hand... a moose will fuck your punk ass up.

Tyler, do you have a picture of a moose in the headlights?

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:13 | 1982070 Sockeye
Sockeye's picture

Not in the headlights, but here's a shot of a moose a little up and back from there.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:16 | 1982296 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture


It has to do with mass and stilts. A big animal on long legs (moose) is heading for the windshield. A hog on the road will destroy a car, but will take out the front end/engine and leave the driver relatively safe. Deer can be in between depending on their size.

I do respect your call for moose in headlights. It is, technically, more representative of danger in the event of a collision.

As far as bad ass moose action, all I got to share is this ...



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:23 | 1982092 omniversling
omniversling's picture

(No CFOs CEOs CICs were hurt in the making of this boom)

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:58 | 1981802 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

When you are reduced to attempting to undermine confidence in another country's financial system in order to improve your own, then confidence in both goes down.

It is amazing to watch european governments and banks make every possible financial and political mistake. It is as if they want to destroy the euro.

I think they know that nationalizations, riots, and huge dislocations are coming. This is the anger phase of dealing with death.

Europe will survive. It has been through worse, but it appears the math does not support the continuation of the system, and northern countries will not retire late, work hard, and undergo austerity so that southern countries can retire early.

Commerzbank is the next shoe to drop. The other dominos will follow sooner or later.

Ackerman said if assets were marked realistically all german banks woyld be underwater. What does that say for the rest of europe?

I think the belief that the banks are insolvent is well accepted now. No one disputes it. There is only one possible outcome once everyone realizes that everyone else knows it too.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:50 | 1981805 non_anon
non_anon's picture

pot calling kettle black

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:56 | 1981832 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

French calling Brits Bluebloods

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:21 | 1982301 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Hah, I said that about Bush ... he wasn't from Texas, he was old money from Mass ... total set up as business man cum politician, just like JEB in FL.

Not sure what kind of blue Perry is ... mabye the kind where you don't get enough oxygen ...



Wed, 12/14/2011 - 22:58 | 1981840 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Not good to talk shit on the people who rate your debt. 

Just sayin'. 

Not a good practice in game theory. France would be better served shutting up and getting their finances in order. 

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:05 | 1981867 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

That isn't true.  You can bankrupt your opponent if you choose correctly.

The question here is, does the UK hold any cards

Maybe they do, maybe they don't....

But they are sure holding a lot of derivatives

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:30 | 1981895 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Don't argue with Daddy... son

I like you, and thus, I don't want to humiliate you like I did with bayofpigs. tmosely is lucky in that he didn't engage me so directly(though there is quite a bit of ammunition there).

Myself and tmosely have a long history of disagreement but it was nice to know that we both agree on one topic. Ron Paul. 

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:34 | 1982310 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Um ...

Arrogant reply ...

And added precisely zero retort ...



Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:07 | 1981877 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

They should be all downgaded long time ago, including US banks and state. What the fuck is this contest who will be the  first? They are getting bold for some reason!!!!!


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:08 | 1981879 xela2200
xela2200's picture

Fucken French. Always finger pointing.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:09 | 1981881 GoldenGal
GoldenGal's picture

Rally soon?

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:23 | 1981932 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Tomorrow. Buy early at the open.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:35 | 1982314 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture


Not to feed the trolls, but I kind of felt this was a classic response.




Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:11 | 1981888 Ted Baker
Ted Baker's picture


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:15 | 1981905 xela2200
xela2200's picture

I don't think the Germans can stomach them either. Heck, I saw documentary of a French Cab driver that was leaving France because He couldn't stand his own country men.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:38 | 1982321 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Isnt that the story of french muslim rejected by his nation, "Douche Ali Akbar"?



Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:11 | 1981889 Ted Baker
Ted Baker's picture


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:12 | 1981894 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

The inbreed European freeloaders are panicking over Margaret Thatcher's quote.

Margaret Thatcher on Socialism


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:18 | 1981911 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

when everyone is drowning in debtonomics beggin for handouts, politics is the ONLY thing that rating agencies should evaluate

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:21 | 1981926 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

The chump should go all in with his personal life savings on that debt, then. It's perfectly fine. (sarc)


Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:24 | 1981937 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

"Former French Prime Minister Édith Cresson once claimed that most British men are gay."

Thus, the population demographics are terrible in the UK.  That should be reason enough for a downgrade.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:43 | 1982137 Peter K
Peter K's picture

In all fairness to Edith, they don't call homosexuality the "Engish vice" for nothing.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 02:40 | 1982323 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Too many decades of sailors selecting the winners.

Math is a bitch.



Thu, 12/15/2011 - 03:56 | 1982379 Bertie Bear
Bertie Bear's picture

She also called the Japanese "worker ants" and said the French didn't want to be like them. They aren't. They are idle.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 06:04 | 1982457 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

but she had a fetish for Dentists and stuffed her lover's mouth full of EU taxpayer funded Gold

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 06:07 | 1982461 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

You are kidding of course. England has the fastest-growing population in Europe and will be second only to Russia in terms of population within 20 years. You must work for a Zombie Bank to have such crap research

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 08:21 | 1982551 DrunkenMonkey
DrunkenMonkey's picture

True, but the UK had to import all the breeding stock from ... (replace ... with any third-world country) by promising them free money and housing.

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 10:32 | 1982974 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

works for the USA - Viva Mexico !

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:27 | 1981945 oogs66
oogs66's picture

he is half right...britain should be downgraded!

but so should france.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:29 | 1981952 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

This is what happens when people who are supposed to be secretive and taciturn open their big fucking mouths. When they all start pissing on each other, you know the end is very near.

Wed, 12/14/2011 - 23:46 | 1981998 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Speaking of Satan, uuuuhhhhh ....

Thu, 12/15/2011 - 00:44 | 1982140 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture

Perhaps Cameron amd Noyer would enjoy sharing a golden shower ...

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