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GATA: "As Gold Price Suppression Grows More Brazen, Maybe Asia Will Defeat It"

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Remarks By Chris Powell
Secretary/Treasurer, Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee
18th CLSA Investors' Forum
Grand Hyatt Hotel, Hong Kong
Wednesday, September 21, 2011

As gold price suppression grows more brazen, maybe Asia will defeat it

The speaker following me, George Clooney, will be able to tell you what it's like to be handsome, talented, rich, and famous. I could tell you what it's like not to be. But instead the conference has asked me to talk about gold, which at least might make you rich, or help you preserve some of whatever you've got.

This opportunity is full of risk, because the gold market long has been manipulated by Western central banks to restrain the gold price. The Western central banks are slowly losing control of the market but they are not giving up easily.

Why do Western central banks manipulate the gold market?

The gold market is manipulated because, despite Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke's insistence to Congress a few weeks ago that gold is not money, just "tradition," gold is indeed a currency that competes brutally with government-issued currencies and helps determine not only the value of those currencies but also interest rates and the value of government bonds.

Gold's competition with currencies was documented in an academic study published in June 1988 in the Journal of Political Economy written by Harvard economics professor Lawrence Summers and University of Michigan economics professor Robert Barsky. Summers and Barsky found that, in a free market, there is an inverse relationship between the price of gold and the real rate of interest:

http://www.gata.org/files/gibson.pdf

The Summers and Barsky study implied that if governments could get control of the gold price, they could also get control of interest rates. Of course Summers went on to become deputy U.S. treasury secretary and then treasury secretary, positions in which skill in rigging markets is a great asset.

Exactly how is the gold price rigged, and by whom?

It has been rigged openly through outright sales of gold by central banks, as it was rigged openly in the 1960s by the group of Western central banks that operated what became known as the London gold pool, and, following the gold pool's collapse in 1968, rigged both openly and surreptitiously through central bank sales and lending of gold and by bullion bank short positions and derivatives that are supported by access to Western central bank gold.

The Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee has documented this rigging from official sources whose admissions are compiled in the "Documentation" section of our Internet site:

http://www.gata.org/taxonomy/term/21

That is, the gold price suppression scheme is not what it is sometimes disparaged as being, "conspiracy theory." Rather it is a matter of the most extensive public record -- at least for those who want to look at the record.

These records include:

-- Public statements by Federal Reserve officials, officials of other Western central banks, and the International Monetary Fund.

-- Declassified Central Intelligence Agency memoranda.

-- The minutes of the Federal Reserve’s Federal Open Market Committee.

-- Filings and statements in three gold price suppression lawsuits in the United States; one brought by my committee’s consultant, Reginald H. Howe, against central banks and bullion banks in U.S. District Court in Boston in 2001; another brought by Blanchard Coin and Bullion against Barrick Gold Corp. in U.S. District Court in New Orleans in 2003; and the third brought two years ago by my organization against the Federal Reserve in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia.

-- These records also include declassified or leaked U.S. State Department cables.

-- Statistical studies done by market researchers like Adrian Douglas in the United States and Dimitri Speck in Germany.

-- And testimony at the hearing about the precious metals markets that was held on March 25, 2010, by the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission. That hearing produced testimony that led to the filing of a massive silver price rigging lawsuit against J.P. Morgan Chase. The revised complaint against J.P. Morgan Chase, filed last week in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York, contains pages and pages of extraordinarily specific detail, identifying trades, traders, and dates:

http://www.gata.org/node/10448

An especially incriminating document remains on the Internet site of the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. It is a detailed plan from April 1961, discovered in the archive of the Fed’s longest-serving chairman, William McChesney Martin, for surreptitiously rigging the currency and gold markets worldwide, a plan that went so far as to propose the alteration, falsification, or withdrawal from publication of U.S. government financial reports that otherwise would be incriminating:

http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/docs/historical/martin/23_06_19610405.pdf

And:

http://www.gata.org/files/FedBlueprintForIntervention.pdf

My organization possesses and has posted these records on the Internet, and I would welcome an opportunity to examine and discuss them in detail, document by document, with any doubters in a public forum.

But the official record of gold price suppression is not merely historical. Thanks to my organization's work, it is very contemporary as well.

Two years ago, using the federal Freedom of Information Act, the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee asked the Federal Reserve to provide access to its gold records, particularly its records involving gold swaps. Gold swaps are trades of gold between central banks, enabling one central bank to intervene in the gold market at the behest of another, keeping the other central bank's fingerprints off the intervention. Gold swaps are a primary mechanism of the gold price suppression scheme.

While the Fed refused to give us access to its gold records, in adjudicating our request internally the Fed did make, perhaps inadvertently, a sensational disclosure. On September 17, 2009, the member of the Fed's Board of Governors who was acting as the judge of our request, Kevin M. Warsh, wrote a letter to GATA's lawyer, William Olson of Vienna, Virginia, confirming the Fed's denial of access. Among the records being withheld from us, Warsh disclosed, were records about the Fed's gold swap arrangements with foreign banks, which, he wrote, "is not the type of information that is customarily disclosed to the public”:

http://www.gata.org/files/GATAFedResponse-09-17-2009.pdf

This admission that the Fed has gold swap arrangements with foreign banks plainly contradicted previous statements by the Fed that it was not involved in the gold market in any way.

As GATA was not willing to let Fed Governor Warsh's letter be the last word on access to the Fed's gold records, on December 31, 2009, we sued the Fed in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia under the Freedom of Information Act. The Fed told the court that the Fed really couldn't find many records involving gold. Implausible as this was, the judge, Ellen Segal Huvelle, denied GATA's request to interrogate Fed officials under oath about what seemed to us to be their wholly inadequate search. Whereupon the judge reviewed, privately in her chambers, the few documents the Fed had submitted, and on February 3 this year she ruled that the Fed indeed could keep secret all but one of those documents. She ordered the Fed to disclose that one document to GATA within two weeks.

On February 18 this year, heeding the court's order, the Fed released the document -- the minutes of the April 1997 meeting of the G-10 Gold and Foreign Exchange Committee as compiled by an official of the New York Federal Reserve Bank. The minutes showed government and central bank officials from around the world conspiring in secret to coordinate their gold market policies:

http://www.gata.org/node/9623

Perhaps of equal importance, the Fed claimed not to be able to find minutes of any other meeting of the G-10 Gold and Foreign Exchange Committee. Either the the G-10 Gold and Foreign Exchange Committee has met only that once, in April 1997, or the Fed was not represented at any other such meetings, or such minutes were conveniently misplaced to keep them away from GATA's lawsuit.

Thus GATA's lawsuit established that, despite its public denials, the Fed has many gold secrets after all. Our lawsuit also managed to pry a couple of those secrets loose and publicize them -- first, that the Fed has gold swap arrangements, and second, that at a secret meeting in 1997 the Fed was conspiring with other central banks to coordinate their gold market policies and that there was never any announcement of this undertaking.

Almost as gratifying to us was that, since the court found that the Fed illegally withheld from us the minutes of the secret G-10 Gold and Foreign Exchange Committee meeting, the Fed was ordered to pay court costs to GATA, which the Fed did in May, sending us a check for $2,870.

But the Fed is far from the only central bank that has been proven to be involved in suppressing the price of gold.

In August 2009, while GATA was pressing its freedom-of-information claim against the Fed, our consultant, Rob Kirby of Kirby Analytics in Toronto, wrote to the German central bank, the Bundesbank, to confirm a news report that most of the German national gold was being kept outside Germany, particularly in New York, presumably at the New York Fed.

The Bundesbank replied to Kirby as follows:

http://www.gata.org/node/7713

"The Deutsche Bundesbank keeps a large part of its gold holdings in its own vaults in Germany, while some of its gold is also stored with the central banks located at major gold trading centres. This has historical and market-related reasons, the gold having been transferred to the Bundesbank at these trading centers. Moreover, the Bundesbank needs to hold gold at the various trading centres in order to conduct its gold activities."

So the Bundesbank says it keeps much of its gold at "trading centers" so that it may conduct its "gold activities."

Exactly what are those activities?

In late 2010 the German journalist Lars Schall sought to follow up with the Bundesbank, posing 13 questions about those "gold activities," particularly as to whether the Bundesbank has any gold swap arrangements with the United States. The Bundesbank replied to Schall as follows:

http://www.gata.org/node/9363

"In managing foreign reserves, the Bundesbank fulfils one of its mandated tasks as an integral part of the European System of Central Banks. We trust you will understand that we are not able to divulge any further information regarding this activity. Particularly with respect to the confidential nature of information about where gold holdings are kept, we are unable to go into any greater detail concerning exact locations and the quantities stored at each of these. Likewise, owing to the strategic nature of the activity, we are not at liberty to provide you with more detailed information about gold transactions."

That seems like a pretty good confession that the Bundesbank has undertaken gold swaps as part of what it considers "strategic activity."

Another confession of the secret maneuvers being played with gold by central banks came at the hearing held by U.S. Rep. Ron Paul's House Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy and Technology on June 23 this year, a hearing I attended. The Treasury Department's inspector general, Eric M. Thorson, testified that he had been told that no part of the U.S. gold reserve was encumbered or compromised. But he did not say exactly who told him this, so his comment was only hearsay. And when Thorson was asked just where the gold pledged by the United States to the International Monetary Fund is kept and how it is accounted for, Thorson couldn't say:

http://www.gata.org/node/10037

Three years ago when GATA put similar questions to the IMF -- "Exactly where is your gold, and do you possess it directly or is it just a claim on the gold reserves of your member nations?" -- the IMF was at first evasive and then abruptly cut off the correspondence without answering:

http://www.gata.org/node/6242

But then most official gold data is actually disinformation.

For the six years prior to 2009 China reported to the IMF that it held 600 tonnes of gold. But in April 2009 China reported that its gold reserves had increased by 76 percent, from 600 tonnes to 1,054 tonnes. Had China obtained the new 454 tonnes only in the past year? Of course not; China had been accumulating gold steadily, through its foreign exchange agency, without reporting it for six years. Only in April 2009 was the gold transferred from China's foreign exchange agency to its central bank and reported to the IMF:

http://www.gata.org/node/7380

There is more confirmation of the false reporting of gold reserves. In June 2010 the World Gold Council reported that Saudi Arabia had increased its gold reserves by 126 percent since 2008, from 143 tonnes to 323 tonnes. But a few weeks later the governor of the Saudi Arabia Monetary Authority said Saudi Arabia had not been purchasing gold lately and that the 143 tonnes in question had been held all along in what he called "other accounts" -- exactly what China had done, holding gold in accounts not reported officially:

http://www.gata.org/node/9094

Thanks to diplomatic cables from the U.S. embassy in Beijing to the State Department in Washington, cables obtained by the Wikileaks organization and published this month, we now know that the Chinese government agrees with GATA that Western central banks suppress the price of gold to support their own currencies.

One U.S. Beijing embassy cable, dated April 28, 2009, summarizes a commentary attributed to the Chinese newspaper Shijie Xinwenbao (World News Journal), which is published by the Chinese government's foreign radio service, China Radio International. The cable's summary reads:

"According to China's National Foreign Exchanges Administration, China's gold reserves have recently increased. Currently, the majority of its gold reserves have been located in the United States and European countries. The United States and Europe have always suppressed the rising price of gold. They intend to weaken gold's function as an international reserve currency. They don't want to see other countries turning to gold reserves instead of the U.S. dollar or euro. Therefore, suppressing the price of gold is very beneficial for the U.S. in maintaining the U.S. dollar's role as the international reserve currency. China's increased gold reserves will thus act as a model and lead other countries toward reserving more gold. Large gold reserves are also beneficial in promoting the internationalization of the renminbi."

Two other U.S. Beijing embassy cables from the same period quote other semi-official Chinese commentaries to the same effect.

These cables also are posted in the "Documentation" section of GATA's Internet site:

http://www.gata.org/node/10380

http://www.gata.org/node/10416

Because central banks know that gold, far from being a quaint antique, is actually the determinant of the value of all other currencies, the true disposition of national gold reserves has become a secret more sensitive than the disposition of nuclear weapons. For gold is a weapon just as powerful -- a weapon crucial to the currency wars that flare up every few years, like the currency war that is raging now.

That is, gold is the secret knowledge of the financial universe. And while nuclear weapons can be used for blackmail, currency market rigging is a far more effective mechanism for looting the world.

Many of you have heard about the looting of Europe undertaken by the Nazi German occupation during World War II. But most of that looting did not take place as it is imagined, at the point of a gun. No, it took place through the currency markets.

This looting through the currency markets was spelled out by the November 1943 edition of a military intelligence letter published by the Military Intelligence Division of the U.S. War Department, a letter called Tactical and Technical Trends:

http://www.gata.org/node/10457

Of course the Nazi occupation seized whatever central bank gold reserves had not been sent out of the occupied countries in time. But then the Nazi occupation either issued special occupation currency that could not be used in Germany itself or, in countries that had strong banking systems, took over the domestic central bank and enforced an exchange rate much more favorable to the reichsmark. Or else the Nazi occupation simply printed for itself and spent huge new amounts of the regular currency of the occupied country.

It was this control of the currency markets that very efficiently drafted everyone in the occupied countries into the service of the occupation and achieved a one-way flow of production, a flow out of the occupied countries and into Nazi Germany.

For a few years Nazi Germany had a hell of a trade deficit -- and couldn't have cared less about it. For as it controlled the currencies of occupied Europe, Nazi Germany never had to cover that deficit, at least not as long as its military occupation continued.

Since the United States now issues the reserve currency for the world, the dollar, the United States now more or less occupies most countries economically, even those countries that have their own currencies, since even those countries choose to hold most of their foreign exchange reserves in dollars. Thus what we see now, the current one-way flow of production -- out of the rest of the world and into the United States.

This exploitation is not well-publicized but it is no secret.

In the 1960s France's finance minister called it an "exorbitant privilege" for just one country -- the United States -- to be able to issue the world reserve currency.

In 2004 the deputy chairman of the Bank of Russia, Oleg Mozhaiskov, told the London Bullion Market Association conference held in Moscow:

"Although there are several reserve currencies, the blatant lack of discipline is demonstrated by the U.S. dollar. I am leaving aside the main aspects of this problem, such as the social and economic injustice of a world order that allows the richest country in the world to live in debt, undermining the vital interests of other countries and peoples. What is important for us today is another aspect, which is connected with the responsibility of the state issuing the reserve currency and for the international community preserving that currency's buying power."

Mozhaiskov recognized the role of gold price suppression in maintaining the dollar's place as the world reserve currency. For the only words of English spoken by Mozhaiskov in that speech were "Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee." Mozhaiskov said gold price movements were often so "enigmatic" that the laws of market supply and demand did not seem to apply. The Bank of Russia long had been following GATA's work without our knowledge. With his speech in 2004 Mozhaiskov was telling the Western bullion bankers that Russia was on to them:

http://www.gata.org/node/4235

And just a few weeks ago Russia's prime minister, former president, and perhaps future president, Vladimir Putin, called the United States a "parasite" on account of its huge external debt and the international dominance of the dollar:

http://www.gata.org/node/10193

The gold price suppression scheme -- a dollar-support scheme -- can be exposed by any serious questioning of central bankers. My organization has found that central bankers refuse to answer the most ordinary specific questions about gold. But who else will ask the questions? The scheme survives in large part because of negligent journalism about gold.

The scheme has lasted so long because, with the assistance of Western central banks, the major Western bullion banks, investment houses that deal in gold, have developed a fractional-reserve gold banking system. They realized that they could sell a lot more gold than they really have, because many major gold buyers -- financial institutions and large investors -- never take delivery of their metal. These investors accept depository receipts instead. The fractional-reserve nature of the bullion banking system was confirmed in detail at last year's hearing of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission:

http://www.gata.org/node/8478

But this is changing.

The gold price spike that began just after GATA's Gold Rush 21 conference in Dawson City, Yukon Territory, Canada in August 2005 was probably caused by the withdrawal of the Russian gold reserves that had been on deposit with bullion banks in London.

You may have heard a few weeks ago that Venezuela is demanding the return of its gold reserves from deposit at the Bank of England and various U.S. bullion banks. The Venezuelan action seems to have given much support to the gold price.

Now there is constant public discussion in the most informed circles in China about the need for that country to obtain gold to diversify its foreign exchange reserves and support its currency.

Western gold reserves are being depleted as Eastern and developing-world central banks become gold buyers.

What is necessary to bring the gold fraud to an end is publicity that reaches financial markets around the world generally.

There is a big story here. For the falsity of the data about the gold market practically screams at financial journalists:

-- There is the omission from official gold reserve reports of leased and swapped gold.

-- There are the sudden huge changes in official gold reserve totals.

-- And there are the deception and conflicts of interest built into major gold and silver exchange-traded funds, since the custodians of their metal happen also to be the world's biggest gold and silver shorters:

http://www.gata.org/node/8600

The valid documentation about the gold market also practically screams at financial journalists:

-- There are the huge and disproportionate gold, silver, and interest rate derivative positions built up at just a few international banks, positions that never could be undertaken without the expressed or implicit underwriting of government, particularly the U.S. government.

-- There are the many official records, collected and publicized by GATA, demonstrating the explicit plans and desire of the U.S. government and its major allies to suppress and control the price of gold.

Most obvious is the question that should follow the common disparagement of gold, a question that somehow is never asked. You well may have heard this disparagement: that even with its recent rise in price, gold has not come close to keeping pace with inflation over the last 30 years. Oil has kept up, food has kept up, other metals have kept up, all the things that are used as measures of inflation have, by definition, kept up with inflation -- but not gold.

So why not? Why hasn't gold kept up with inflation?

It's because Western governments found ways of vastly increasing the supply of gold without having to go through the trouble of mining it -- to dishoard and lease it from central bank reserves and to issue certificates of deposit against gold that never existed in the first place.

"Why" is supposed to be a basic question of journalism. But it has fallen out of financial journalism when it comes to gold.

In recent years, and especially in recent months, I have spent much time explaining the gold price suppression scheme to leading financial journalists in the West. I have given them the documentation. Some of these journalists seemed interested. But none has ever reported anything about the issue. One writer who works for a major news agency in the United States was intrigued enough to call the Federal Reserve and ask about its gold swaps. She got a very telling "no comment." But unfortunately she could not get her editor's permission to write a gold story.

Frustrating as all this is, it is not too surprising. After all, who are the major advertisers in the Western financial news media and the major sources of financial news? The market manipulators and governments themselves. And journalists seem to take for granted that central banks operate in secret, particularly in regard to gold, so there's no point in questioning them -- even though central banking now determines the value of all capital, labor, goods, and services in the world, and does so in secret.

So here I am in Asia, which is a major victim of the gold price suppression scheme. Maybe there will be more curiosity and indignation about it here.

But Asia is not the only victim of this scheme. My own country may be the biggest victim. For this scheme has helped to corrupt the United States, destroying our once-free markets and the accountability of our government.

We in GATA do what we can, even though, from our beginning, we have wondered whether we could really presume to speak for gold. And not just for gold, of course -- we are not idolaters -- but for the economic and political liberty of individuals and the national sovereignty that gold serves and stands for. With gold always under attack precisely for what it represents, and with no others coming forward to defend it for what it represents, with even the gold mining industry’s main trade association refusing to acknowledge the attack, we have hoped that any presumption on our part might be forgiven.

We remain largely amateurs. At the outset we did not half understand what was going on and what we were setting about to do. Our name preserves that imperfect understanding. We thought we had discovered just another anti-trust violation. It was a while before we perceived that we were up against government policy and that most of what we were discovering had been discovered long ago, at least in principle, just not well taught, publicized, preserved, and made timely again.

Because it can work only through surreptitiousness and deceit, this government policy will be defeated when it is more widely understood -- and every day it is being better understood, because it is getting so brazen. It was more brazen than ever the other day when Switzerland devalued its franc, the world's leading "safe haven" currency, apparently leaving the "safe haven" field exclusively to gold. But just a few minutes before the Swiss franc's devaluation was announced, unidentified sellers dumped thousands of gold futures contracts on markets around the world, causing the gold price to plunge along with the Swiss franc. These sellers plainly did not aim to make a profit from their gold holdings; if they had intended to make a profit, they would have sold gradually into the market. No, they meant to knock the price down hard, and they did.

These sellers almost surely were central banks. But as far as I could tell, no Western journalist has yet put a question to any central banker about that strange and counterintuitive action in the gold market.

I ask for your help in forcing an end to the gold price suppression scheme. I ask in the cause of giving individuals, nations, and all humanity a chance at democracy, liberty, and limited government with a neutral, fair, and impartial international currency that serves not just one government or another or one class or another but rather the whole brotherhood of man.

Source: GATA

 


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Wed, 09/21/2011 - 10:58 | Link to Comment GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

No more cheap gold? It was the only government plan working for me.

 

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:04 | Link to Comment gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Gold Bi...,

oh, never mind.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:10 | Link to Comment spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

 

To be honest, unless you're a paper speculator gold and silver suppression have been a good deal for investors — they have allowed us to pick up physical PMs at way below fair value.

And it's not like — in the long run —  Blythe & co have been very successful. Gold is up something like 500% on 2001, silver closer to 800%. That's because in spite of market manipulation, prices are ultimately determined by global fundamentals. And — as we all know — the fundamentals from PMs are way, way up from here.

http://azizonomics.com/2011/09/18/about-silver-manipulation/

 

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:55 | Link to Comment strannick
strannick's picture

Go Gata. Only Ron Paul can compete with GATA for resilient 'truthiness' in exposing government currency manipulations. Shame on the CFTC. Shame on Jill Sommers, Scott O Malia, Micheal Dunn Gary Gensler and yes, even Bart Chilton

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:01 | Link to Comment ratso
ratso's picture

This article is pure crap.  Just another set of gold conspiracy theories that are patently false.  I'll just make one point to make the indication of how distorted this article is.

Central banks sold gold not to control the price or influence interest rates but because they had conlcuded that the importance of gold was expiring as a store of value and because the money received represented a significant gain in currency that could be more usefully applied.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:48 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Sure, go with the MSM line, it's not like they've ever lied before.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

When something has been source of wealth for 6000 years and a Banker says it is a barbaric relic, do you belive them (well ratso does )but we in the real world know better , Gold and silver has been the best "dumb" investment for about ten years, you just stack it and forget it .

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:34 | Link to Comment Diogenes
Diogenes's picture

"Central banks sold gold not to control the price or influence interest rates but because they had conlcuded that the importance of gold was expiring as a store of value and because the money received represented a significant gain in currency that could be more usefully applied."

So they sold all their gold at the bottom, $320 and ounce. How is that trade working out? Are you suggesting they are not crooked, just stupid?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:42 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

That's what they always try and sell you. Donchya know they are all keystone cops. The modified limited hangout is always "we're too bumbling to pull something like that off...now pay no attention to our power and wealth".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout

Yep there are never elite conspiracies, only fortunate coincidences and totally forgivable mistakes. Of course no one will ever PAY for those mistakes, and they certainly won't cede power, but lets not get all crazy and demand accountability or anything. I mean accountability that's something for poor people, just like conspiracies to rob 7/11's.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:59 | Link to Comment trembo slice
trembo slice's picture

@Ratso...

you're wrong on all counts.  central bankers "concluded that the importance of gold was expiring as a store of value" if they came to this conclusion... they are morons.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 15:37 | Link to Comment crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

I wouldn't say they're morons, they just know they have no other choice.  Actually, I would say they are morons, but whatever....

GOLD IS A REPORT CARD OF ALL CENTRAL BANKS! 

They know this, and my last check of their report card shows a solid F.

If you were a student and could go in and manipulate your grades, you sure as hell would.  In the end, the student (Central Bank) is still stupid, and the parents (Public) are left with manipulated and deceptive data.   

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 14:07 | Link to Comment Harlequin001
Harlequin001's picture

Ratso, 'This article is pure crap.  Just another set of gold conspiracy theories that are patently false.  I'll just make one point to make the indication of how distorted this article is.

Central banks sold gold not to control the price or influence interest rates but because they had conlcuded that the importance of gold was expiring as a store of value and because the money received represented a significant gain in currency that could be more usefully applied.'  - and in one sweeping statement the world was awakened to the fact that it had created a completely new class of idiot.

'the money received represented a significant gain in currency'- utter gibberish, and that's your point, unfortunately...

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 14:15 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Let me see, a well documented argument from GATA or the opinion of "ratso"- tough decision!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:55 | Link to Comment Conax
Conax's picture

Only metal investors try this argument. I mean, who ever heard of an investor who wishes his holdings to drop in value? In any other area, this would be nutz.

My house has depreciated to half its value, I hope it continues so I can buy another house... ?

Silver bugs from days gone by bought and held, and held, for decades waiting for their day in the sun. They died, still regarded as dumbasses by their friends and associates because the ship never came in. 

I would like to see the metals trade at their real value, in high esteem as the only real money there is.

The bankers have done us no favors distorting and manipulating the markets. Look where we are now.

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:38 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

True. Everyone applauding price suppression applauds it in the belief it'll end, but only after they've backed up the truck.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:18 | Link to Comment goldfreak
goldfreak's picture

the suppression has worked very well for me. I would not have been able to accumulate all my PM's without it

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:27 | Link to Comment Conax
Conax's picture

If the suppression continues ad infinitum, what's the point?

I expected a passle of red because most of the readers of ZH are younger dudes.

I understand where you newer buyers are coming from. I still want to see hundred dollar Ag before I croak.

yeahhh.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 14:20 | Link to Comment Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

The point is that silver and gold have been the best investments you could own since 2001. I guess you missed that, must be the alzheimers. 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:44 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

Probably still (justifiably) bitter about 1979-1980.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:31 | Link to Comment theXman
theXman's picture

For Chindia and any other country who would like to accumulate as much gold as possible, the lower the price the better. They would welcome the artificially low price. Why would they help to defeat the price suppression? I just don't under GATA's logic. 

Personally, I would like to see more price suppression so that I can buy at lower price as well.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:40 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Presumably, though, you wouldn't like the price suppression to go on forever, would you?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 10:59 | Link to Comment runlevel
runlevel's picture

Say Silver Again!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:22 | Link to Comment X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

thats where im at.

TYLER, these articles are coming out pretty fast today

any special reason?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:24 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Agreed. Asia is busy saving Silver and I can say that with confidence from the view on the ground.

Gold Will F(ofa)old!

And that is no conspiracy theory. i have a book at hand, that I received 6-8 weeks ago that tells me I was right one year ago.

ORI

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:07 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Careful with that confirmation bias my friend.

It's more intoxicating than the best bottle of wine or aged Irish Whiskey. :>)  :>)

BTW I like my confirmation bias straight up and about three fingers high in the glass.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:12 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

CD, I kid you not, I have the book of books at hand. Without an iota of doubt.

Gold is the greatest head-fake in the history of money. It's blinding like the Sun.

Let's watch together, eh, in the timelss tone of Another. ;-)

Such days though, man, such days.

In the grand scheme, as you well know, it's all good. Or not!

;-)

ORI

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:24 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Careful my friend. That's just crazy talk......talk that ultimately I can't disagree with :)

If we are to accept that the money meme is a Trojan Horse theme used to seduce and control, then Gold is just the same horse of a different color.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/perception-inception-and-trojan-horse-money-meme

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:31 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Maybe time to be care-free again CD? Long series, will delve in later... the premise is of course highly resonant.

ORI

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:51 | Link to Comment Restcase
Restcase's picture

Tell us the name of the book. Some of us like silver as much as you...

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:47 | Link to Comment kkam
kkam's picture

ORI, you are wrong. I am Indian too, an investor and fx/pm trader living now in India again having lived in many parts of the world. Silver is strong here, but gold is much, much stronger. Don't know what book you are referring to, but seeing the reality on the ground here and reading your comments I'd say you're smoking something funny.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:58 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Hey Kkam, customer volume in the two sections (always distinct) of a major Jeweller (actually three) would be a tell? BEsides close relationship with said dealer and frequent questioning of the same? Watching the 30 Kg Rounds increasing every other week, plus the increasing demand for .999?

The book can be had by anyone who asks me (me e-mail is on my site).....

But on the ground in a major South Indian Metro, Silver is gaining momentum, no doubt in this long term PM investor's mind.

Nice to meet you by the way. 

ORI

PS: Have you noticed how Indians are always rude to other indians in foreign company, even virtual company? Since you are world travelled, you must have noticed this too. That crabs in a pot story really sounds true. 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:08 | Link to Comment kkam
kkam's picture

There was nothing rude in my reply. I believe you're wrong, that's what I said. I checked out your blog article and if that's the sort of stuff you're into, wer'e on different planets. Good luck.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:12 | Link to Comment kkam
kkam's picture

Silver is gaining momentum - there's a simple reason for tha. Silver is cheap compared to gold, so more investors are turning to silver. But to say gold is some sort of 5000 year con job is nonsense not worth discussing.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:03 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

The Asians will play the Ponzi/Gold game until they feel it is no longer in their best interest to play. Then they will cross swords and openly declare war. The bottom line is that we should all understand that PM price suppression is to our benefit because it essentially puts "real" Gold on sale every day.

To prove my point, what do you think the "real" price of Gold, meaning physical, would be today without suppression?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:25 | Link to Comment Motley Fool
Motley Fool's picture

About $60,000 per ounce. :P

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:10 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

$10,000 per oz.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:22 | Link to Comment FranSix
FranSix's picture

If you use CPI to adjust for inflation, gold's 40-year inflation adjusted average was ~$600/oz.  If you use shadowstats.com adjusting for inflation, the 40-year inflation adjusted average is ~$2000/oz.

This is ~100X the price fix prior to the U.S. dollar devaluation during the depression.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:18 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

Spot on as usual, CD.  Currency war begets trade war begets military war...

With,

Without

And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about...

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:48 | Link to Comment OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

Yes.

When trade and goods are not allowed to cross borders, armies often do.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:23 | Link to Comment Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

Yep. One entity decides for whatever reason to break the agreed upon rules and begins to take from the system by manipulation and trickery. As the do so, they are always stealing from another player. The loser will eventually get sick enough of this arrangement  that they decide to use other "leverage" to try to stop the manipulation. There is then an indignant retaliation by the rule-breakers, and back and forth it goes. Mix in the inevitability of mankind's ignorance, hubris and animal instincts; BOOM! We have WWIII (at least the shooting phase of it).

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:36 | Link to Comment viv_savage
viv_savage's picture

To answer your query I'd say around 55 - 75K/toz.

However, I will only begin to exchange ounces/grams/grains for fiat once Freegold has been established and is the new paradigm.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:52 | Link to Comment RSloane
RSloane's picture

So far, it has been working in our favor.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:44 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Not if you'd bought it in the 80's and died before 2001.

I'm long gold, BTW, and wish for the price suppression to end... but only now that I've got some ;-)

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:05 | Link to Comment Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

$10,000 if they just let go of the price.  $60,000 if they ramp the price of gold to dig themselves out of debt and restore their balance sheets.

Of course, the higher they ramp the price, the less everything else measured in gold is worth.  This constitutes a tax on you to bail them out.  They wouldn't do that, would they?

BuhHaahaahaa

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:08 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Either way we ultimately lose. The game is to lose less than if we did nothing.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:13 | Link to Comment Zola
Zola's picture

I would venture 10,000 to 15,000 USD...

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:28 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Then it sounds like we should go all Cramer like and buy buy buy. :>)

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:03 | Link to Comment lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

THANK YOU ! for a great posting !  ...... such a simple concept; i've tried to explain it to many of my friends, i tell them "run, don't walk, run to the coin guy down the street & buy even just a few gold & silver eagles or maples ; they do nothing . "    that is the hold that governments & banking have over the sheeple; either they don't understand or they don't believe........ but, they will one day when they are wiped out on their paper money in a bank deposit.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:18 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

either they don't understand or they don't believe..

That's exactly the case.   I'm done educating people.  Picked up 40 silver PROOF dollars at Melt + 10% the other day.   Asked the guy about it and he just wanted to get rid of them.   We both think we sort of 'took' the other.   (I guess that's good business)

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:41 | Link to Comment I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

Sadly, I am done trying to explain gold and silver to folks too. I've got my parents to buy a few oz of gold and couple rolls of silver - though they still think it is some sort of gimmick - they just bought to shut me up, I'm sure. It's exhausting trying to peel eyelids open. I'm at the point of "Come what may." F the sheep. they may be as much of the problem as our evil banker overlords.   /sigh

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:21 | Link to Comment Mariposa de Oro
Mariposa de Oro's picture

I see them as low hanging fruit for the Harvesters.  With luck, the rest of us won't be worth the effort.  If almost no American sheeple have physical bullion in their possession, why bother with door to door confiscation?  This is assuming we don't go full fledged East German Police State......

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:48 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

I'm at the point of "Come what may." F the sheep. ...they may be as much of the problem as our evil banker overlords.   /sigh

If they weren't sheep the bankers would never have gotten away with this bullshit for so long.

It's the massive sheep compliance that enables a State to oppress its citizens.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:48 | Link to Comment jdelano
jdelano's picture

you test them? My first thought about a dodgy dealer is..."Are these counterfeit?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:52 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Estate sale with US Mint presentation boxes and certificates of authenticity.   Spot tested all of them (60% test rate).   CLEAN.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 14:51 | Link to Comment prole
prole's picture

Any advice on  how to test silver coins?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:12 | Link to Comment passwordis
passwordis's picture

 Completely agree.  I've been talking to my family for years. I begged my brother to roll his retirement into a PM account or better yet, cash out take the tax hit and by physical.. He wouldn't go that far but he did buy $3000 worth of silver eagles a few years ago.  Exactly 18 months later his $3000 was now worth $12000... You might think this incredible rate of return would have convinced him to listen to me and get out of his IRA. He just tripped his money in 1.5 years.. What more could you possibly ask for?  Instead of investing more into PMs, he sold what he had and bought his son a car.

 This guy has excellent credit and could have just as easily financed the vehicle for his son.. but instead he trades an appreciating asset for a depreciating one.  Makes absolutely no sense to me.  If he cashed in his retirement and bought PMs when I told him to,, he would have made hundreds of thousands.  I just don't' get it..

 I also tried to talk with friends but know one cares. I did manage to convince a friend to buy 10 ounces after a year of talking.  Another friend wanted me start buying tax delinquent properties.  I explained that I would rather put my money in PMs. After explaining, he just looked at me with that stare... you know the one.

 I just explained how I more than quadrupled my money in the past 6 years.. and he does'nt want t o hear about it. Amazing!

 It gets frustrating but I'm done. I'm not bringing the subject up anymore.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:27 | Link to Comment lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

It gets frustrating but I'm done. I'm not bringing the subject up anymore.      oh, i hate to tell you, but, you are NOT done.    your friends & family who you begged for years to listen to you will be AT YOUR FRONT DOOR LOOKING TO YOU TO SAVE THEM BECAUSE THEY WILL BE WIPED OUT & THEY KNOW YOU ARE NOW RICH WITH PRECIOUS METALS !  

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:08 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Where in the world is silver used as a currency (or redeemable via tax-free paper exchange)? I'd like to think that it is in our future...

Could I go to Utah to avoid taxes from precious metals sales?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:11 | Link to Comment quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Why report them at all?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:14 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Report what?  ;)

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:16 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

It's just silverware, sir.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:19 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

These aren't the droids you're looking for

These aren't the droids we're looking for

Move along

(waves) Move along

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:15 | Link to Comment FiscalCrater
FiscalCrater's picture

Absolutely right.  Screw the bastards.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:23 | Link to Comment Hearst
Hearst's picture

Interesting is that in the US the Dollar is defined as 371.25 grains of fine Silver.  Ron Paul (and others) bring up the fact that this has never been overturned.  Although counterfit currency is allowed because of the FED and legal tender laws.  Still on the books Silver =  Dollars.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:34 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

What an odd time we must live in.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:30 | Link to Comment xtop23
xtop23's picture

 Possibly in the very near future...... Mexico.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:37 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Mexico + Future = ???

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:41 | Link to Comment xtop23
xtop23's picture

 Not sure what youre saying. That;

a) Mexico may eventually end up utilizing silver as a backing for their currency ..... yes, its being talked about.

or

b) Mexico's future is uncertain because of the current insanity going on south of the US.

 The uncertainty in Mexico will continue until they're able to use that violence as a pretext to further impinge on our 2nd Amendment rights.

 Only then will that end.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:49 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Mexico's future is directly tied to what we do. Adherence to a Constitutional government in the United States will help Mexicans in their own fight for liberty. This needs to happen both in the US and Mexico, although I see America leading.

Mexico should back the Peso with silver. I think it's just talk though from some oligarchs.

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:18 | Link to Comment passwordis
passwordis's picture

Avoid Taxes?  You avoid the unconstitutional capital gains tax by keeping your business private.  

Me, I hope the silver price does'nt explode because I lost the majority of my silver in a boating accident and the rest  I sold when I lost my job!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:33 | Link to Comment Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

Taxes are voluntary, so is been treated like a slave.  1215.org

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:10 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Chris Powell is 100% correct. Those who disagree haven't bothered to investigate themselves.

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:32 | Link to Comment DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

But he's wrong about the asians not being part of the problem. The Chinese would love to have their trillions in USDs in gold instead but they want to convert at surpressed prices. There is no way the Chinese government isn't in on this at least for the short term.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:04 | Link to Comment Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

He's not wrong. The increasing physical demand is coming from them. And it's exactly why they are accumulating gold and silver. They are trying to dishoard ever increasingly worth-less USD's.

Time isn't anyone's friend on the suppression story. Not enough metal to go around. Not even close. 

Once the Grand Super Cycle kicks in (Mania Phase), it's game over.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:11 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Physical gold is like kryptonite to fiat currencies.  It's good to be surrounded by it.  :D

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:11 | Link to Comment HitTheFan
HitTheFan's picture

Freegold, it's a coming.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:19 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

At the speed of Oregon Trail, mind you.

"...you decide to caulk the wagon. ohh no! Jimmy died and your grain is Toast!"

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:12 | Link to Comment Absalon
Absalon's picture

If you believe the market is being manipulated contrary to fundamentals in a way that surpresses the spot price then just go long and wait.

 

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:44 | Link to Comment I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

That's what i'm doing with every spare penny I've got. Buying physical gold and silver has become just as much a philisophical stance as it is an investment for me.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:56 | Link to Comment Absalon
Absalon's picture

I can respect that.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:39 | Link to Comment passwordis
passwordis's picture

 The thing that concerns me is the idea that they can keep this up for another few decades.  The unconventional wisdom is that physical is causing a squeeze and things are only going to get tighter and that the breaking point is right around the corner but what if... we are underestimating them. Is it possible they have secret gold/silver reserves?

   Think about it. The bankers know what real money is. They probably created fiat in order to buy the real stuff.  They know from the beginning that their money will eventually be worth nothing.  What do the banks do with their money? They buy land, commodities and influence.. What else is there?  You almost have to believe that they are hording unaccounted PMs.

I read an article that claimed the Rothschild's have unimaginable amounts of gold located in secret underground vaults. Gold that know one knows about. Perhaps, like Debeers, they are just waiting to flood the market. The price of gold and silver will plummet, and they will buy it all up again.  Do we "really" know how much gold and silver is mined? Should we trust the available Data?

Just  playing Devil's advocate with a little paranoia mixed in.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:56 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

I wouldn't be concerned with the Rothschilds in this scenario. If they were to 'flood the market' to suppress the price of gold and silver, the market would just rise once they started buying it up again, wouldn't it?

My main concern is that the 'Black Eagle Trust' exists - a secret US government hoard of PMs taken from the Axis powers at the end of the second world war. If this exists, then the US can keep leaking gold and silver into the markets to suppress the price for decades, and I'll be dead by the time they reach their real value.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:12 | Link to Comment Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Amercia becomes its enemies.  The part about Nazi currency manipulation was a lesson we learned well.  It is going to suck to find out how idiotic we become after fighting religious extremists.  We got a taste of our future under Bush in that direction.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:12 | Link to Comment Idiot Savant
Idiot Savant's picture

Why isn't ZH providing more coverage re the "occupy wall street" protest? You all can be cynical if you like, but at least someone is getting off their ass and doing something.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/sep/21/occupy-wall-street-amy-goodman

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

Cnbs was making fun of them. Focusing on the hippy looking chick.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:53 | Link to Comment trembo slice
trembo slice's picture

Because the people occupying wall street are a bunch of socialists.  Like most of our misguided friends on the left, they are attacking the profit motive and want to make employers indentured servants to their low-skilled employees.  But you are right.  At least they are getting off of their asses and doing something.  It just might be worth a damn if they weren't foaming at the mouth for more government control.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:13 | Link to Comment shazbotz
shazbotz's picture

winning!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:14 | Link to Comment rambler6421
rambler6421's picture

Great article.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:17 | Link to Comment Mark_BC
Mark_BC's picture

Correction - governments do not issue money. Private banks do. A government issued fiat currency could coexist nicely with gold, one currency for transaction purposes and one for storage of wealth.

Thu, 10/13/2011 - 11:36 | Link to Comment AE911Truth
AE911Truth's picture

Ref: "A government issued fiat currency could coexist nicely with gold, one currency for transaction purposes and one for storage of wealth."

Amen to that.

I noticed wide-spread participation in OWS across the internet. See Occupy[everywhere]. If everyone who participated in this movement instead purchased a few ounces of Silver, the price suppression would end. We just need to get the word out to the protesters that they can end the Wall Street Bank TBTF corruption by voting with their pocketbooks - to buy physical Silver. We here at ZeroHedge are all on the net. We should be getting the word out to the protesters. I know I am . . . how about you guys?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:17 | Link to Comment Mark_BC
Mark_BC's picture

Correction - governments do not issue money. Private banks do. A government issued fiat currency could coexist nicely with gold, one currency for transaction purposes and one for storage of wealth.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:18 | Link to Comment RobotTrader
RobotTrader's picture

 

 

10-yr. at 1.92% and 5-yr. at .83% with world record high deficits.

I hardly think that TPTB is really worried about gold affecting interest rates.

Both gold and Treasuries are "safe havens" now.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:20 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

"now"

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:21 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

"Both gold and Treasuries are "safe havens" now."

because that would make sense.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:25 | Link to Comment oddjob
oddjob's picture

And there you are with a boatload of Netflix...so sad, but so deserving.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 19:52 | Link to Comment nmewn
nmewn's picture

Just damn...that was cold...I likey ;-)

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:26 | Link to Comment Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

Artificially low yields on Tbills shows how worthless that "haven" is.

Would you loan your nieghbor cash, at low interest knowing he will never pay it back and no ability to do so?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:19 | Link to Comment pirea
pirea's picture

Yes, if he is buying everything from me and he is running out of money.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 16:39 | Link to Comment falun bong
falun bong's picture

people ask about a gold "bubble" after 10 years of price rises and little participation, what about the Treasuries bubble, 30 years and counting and everyone in the world piling in to get a piece of paper with some fancy writing on it

As James Grant says USTs are "return-free risk"

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:50 | Link to Comment Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Look at Lloyds, Siemens, etc. - tons of cash, banks aren't safe, their only choice is gov't bonds - best of a bad bunch of options.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:19 | Link to Comment unclebill
unclebill's picture

Gold will never get defeated!!!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:24 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

or confiscated, Uncle!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:37 | Link to Comment unclebill
unclebill's picture

I like that. or Borrowed permanently.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:42 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

I like the idea of lending it to a deep hole in the ground, preferably not next to me.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:58 | Link to Comment X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

and thats why they're still finding gold hoards in europe dating back to the fall of the roman empire.

how history, and military history, repeats its self....

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:10 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

thank God my body regulates the mundane repetitivate tasks like heart rate, breathing, waste collection.

thank Government is here to help us pay less taxes, have safe regulation, create jobs and take on the world's "bad leaders."

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:38 | Link to Comment X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

.

SURE!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:21 | Link to Comment CitizenPete
CitizenPete's picture

Support GATA. 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:26 | Link to Comment monopoly
monopoly's picture

I really have no strong opinion one way or the other if gold, silver are manipulated to a large degree. Am not a strong fan of manipulation but it makes no difference to me moving forward. I know what works for me no matter what the daily news flow. Train may be leaving the station at some point....I am on it.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:29 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Manipulation *is* the Market.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:17 | Link to Comment Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Yes.  Prices are being manipulated, or recovering from manipulation, on all time frames, all of the time.  It's easier to form a conspiracy and manipulate prices than to regularly make a profit in a true market with untainted price discovery.  That's why you will never see a true market.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:22 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Trading delays, fifo timestamps. more hft rules? prosecute all shenanigans.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:26 | Link to Comment LookingWithAmazement
LookingWithAmazement's picture

Gold and silver are not suppressed, but way overvalued, because of the "paper" traders. See the Comex margin hikes, when the prices go down. No Comex/LBMA = massive lower, but REAL prices. So, smoke the paper traders out of their holes, blow up the Comex + LBMA and forbid any fractional fake-trading in PMs.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:29 | Link to Comment tmosley
tmosley's picture

Yeah, reducing supply while keeping demand static always lowers prices!

Those stupid gold bugs!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 17:25 | Link to Comment baseball13
baseball13's picture

tmosley

you forgot: /sarc

lol!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:30 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

thanks for playing!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:33 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Nice one, you managed to get it EXACTLY fucking backwards.  

Consdering everyone with a piece of paper actually wants the gold/silver what do you think is going to happen if COMEX/LBMA (both massively using naked paper) go away and then those individuals start seeking out the physical establishments to buy physical PM's?   

(Hint: Take "What happens when too much currency chase too few goods for $100")

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:36 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

...you give your PMs away for scrap paper, of course!

I love my kookaburras.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:52 | Link to Comment LookingWithAmazement
LookingWithAmazement's picture

If "everyone with a piece of paper actually wants the gold/silver", why don't they BUY the physical then? I think they just want paper trading, take some profits and nothing more. No bullion or coins at home. Thus driving up prices unnecessarily.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:17 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

If someone sold Xerox copies of Van Gogh's Sunflowers and could get folks to believe that those copies were the real thing would the price of the actual painting go up or down?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:25 | Link to Comment LookingWithAmazement
LookingWithAmazement's picture

Comparison fails: the paper traders do have upwards effect on the physical gold/silver. See the margin hikes.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:33 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

If that makes any sense you'll have to do a much better job of explaining yourself.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:36 | Link to Comment LookingWithAmazement
LookingWithAmazement's picture

The fact is: paper traders don't want to buy physical and without Comex/LBMA they would maybe simply put their money elsewhere, not definitely in gold/silver.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:03 | Link to Comment Mark_BC
Mark_BC's picture

Without the gold suppression scheme there would be no more dollars for those traders to put elsewhere.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:06 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Just because a buyer does not wish to acquire a physical commodity due to concerns about logistics and storage does not mean that the buyer desires to hold an unbacked piece of paper.

Paper traders have options including allocated and unallocated accounts. Are there any contracts offered for strictly imaginary accounts? If your theory is correct there should be such accounts available.

Please provide documentation showing that paper buyers affirm that they want to hold certificates for nonexistent gold. If you can't do that you're only guessing. And you guessed wrong.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 20:04 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

The fact is: paper traders don't want to buy physical and without Comex/LBMA they would maybe simply put their money elsewhere, not definitely in gold/silver.

Hey, I've got a great deal for you!

I'm willing to sell you 1000 oz's of gold for a mere $100 an ounce!

You'll have to take my word for it that the certificate of gold ownership I'll be sending you for your $100,000 is actually backed by 1000 oz's of gold, of course... but according to you, whether the gold exists or not is irrelevant, right?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 22:40 | Link to Comment jaxville
jaxville's picture

 Maybe when you go to sleep tonight the toothfairy will put a kilobar of gold under your pillow

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:29 | Link to Comment monopoly
monopoly's picture

"gold and silver way overvalued". As long as I keep seeing posts like that....am very comfortable with my gold and will continue to add. Thank you.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:31 | Link to Comment equity_momo
equity_momo's picture

All very well but what did George have to say?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:37 | Link to Comment rubyruffruff
rubyruffruff's picture

oooopsie....is shadow lending tool of china beginning to develop a patina??????  bye bye copper

http://brucekrasting.blogspot.com/

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:39 | Link to Comment fonestar
fonestar's picture

Excellent article!  And a big thank-you to GATA for fighting the good fight against incredible odds.  When we have real journalists and a real free press again, the metals manipulation game will go down in history as the greatest fraud ever commited throughout the centuries!

Those that bought into the current illusory system will largely be broke (or dead) and those that held the true olde money will be laughing!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:42 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

"olde" = brilliant brushstroke

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:43 | Link to Comment Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

1. They confiscated gold in 1933. (This alone speaks volumes)
2. They invented the Federal Reserve and it's counter party the IRS circa 1913.
3. No business is allowed to make transactions in money other than their paper confetti by threat of prison.
4. If people and companies were allowed the privilege to conduct free, fair, and efficient trade between each other what form of money do you think they would choose to keep score in? It sure as hell wouldn't be the irredeemable dollar or the euro.
5. If your were going to run a free and fair nation granting your people rights and freedoms what kind of currency would be in circulation?
5. We have an almost complete Central Planned economy and jobs base that is not efficient and completely dependant upon politicians redistributing the paper to make it work.
6.We have countless wars which could never ever be funded by gold. Only unlimited debt and debasement of our money can fund our ambitions of world domination and complete hegemony over the world's money.

In conclusion if you do not think they "manage" the only real money (save silver) so they can keep their game going. If you do not think that gold is one of their biggest obstacles to achieving their goals then keep watching "Dancing with the Stars", "American Idol", and "The View" "Ellen" "Dr. Phil" because you are a moron and will be clueless for the rest of your life.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:54 | Link to Comment BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

I read this a bit different:

1. We confiscated gold in 1933.
2. We invented the Federal Reserve and it's counter party the IRS circa 1913.

Fortunately, you can also write it like this:

1. We liberated gold and silver in 2011.
2. We closed the Federal Reserve and it's counter party the IRS circa 2012.

The game is played by the People.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:45 | Link to Comment topshelfstuff
topshelfstuff's picture

"""""5. If your were going to run a free and fair nation granting your people rights and freedoms what kind of currency would be in circulation?""""""

You mean we would have to follow what the Founding Fathers put in our Constitution? And shouln't we also be listening to all their Warnings and Cautions? We really need to educate The People..fact is its really easy to understand the Constitution and Bill Of Rights

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:36 | Link to Comment cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Gold was copnfiscagted in 1933 because YOU COULDN'T PRINT MOE MONEY WITHOUTH MORE GOLD.   Paper money was still fractionally backed by gold in 1933.  To increase the money supply, you needed gold to back it.  

In 1933 there was no FDIC.  If a bank failed, you lost your money.  People were taking money OUT of banks and stsashing it in mason jars, mattresses, ANYWHERE but the local bank.  There was a growing shortage of 'money' - paper currency - in circulation.

At the seme time government under FDR wanted to increase government spending - they wanted to increase the money supply to spend - to 'boost' the economy.  

 

SO....to increase the supply of currency - of money - you needed more gold.  

 

Now a few computer keystrokes created trillions - out of thin air - or the electronic ether.  But every time you create more money without a corresponding increase in the assets of a nation you decrease the value of that money.

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:44 | Link to Comment Mercury
Mercury's picture

I ask for your help in forcing an end to the gold price suppression scheme. I ask in the cause of giving individuals, nations, and all humanity a chance at democracy, liberty, and limited government with a neutral, fair, and impartial international currency that serves not just one government or another or one class or another but rather the whole brotherhood of man.

By all means, spread the word but I think buying physical (while you can) is the best way to build security for yourself, no?

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:54 | Link to Comment FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

GATA is like a dog with a bone. It never lets go.

However, I wonder just what all the supression rhetoric achieves. IF they admitted it tomorrow, what would happen to change anything?

and... why would anyone in the USA want Asia to defeat it? Surely, that would mean even more of the Gold ending up there, giving them ultimate, Gold backed currency power (through  confiscation) to destroy the West?

Cut, nose, spite, own face.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:22 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

I refuse to think in terms such as "to destroy the West." I am an individual who's paying more and earning less every day. The interests of Western bankers are not my interests.

I like my nose the way it is I just want to stop paying through it.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:01 | Link to Comment MrBinkeyWhat
MrBinkeyWhat's picture

Dear Central Banks,

Thank you for artificially keeping down the price of PM's while I accumulate them.

From a secured and undisclosed location.

MBW

PS: The storm is coming.

PSS: For the serious out there, the order of acquisition is:

  • Beans & Rice (stored food)
  • Farmable land (and the means to farm it)
  • Security (You know what that means)
  • Barterable goods ( toilet paper, cigarettes...etc.)
  • PM's for the surplus

Get to work.

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:56 | Link to Comment downtownshuter
downtownshuter's picture

So what happens to the price of gold in 30 or so years when nanotechnology leads to our ability to manufacture gold?

 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:23 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

The unicorns will cry.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:17 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Nanotech doesnt rearrange subatomic particles into Au.   For that you need LOTS of energy for fusing elements beyond iron or you need to induce fission in even heavier elements (hello ionizing radiation).   Either way that energy, time and effort is better spent on more profitable enterrises. 

Now picotech and femtotech can do that but those are beyond the Singularity.  (At which point gold is useless)  

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:30 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

To create gold one would either need to be a successful alchemist or have a good fusion reactor. I'm not aware of any fission reactions having stable gold as a byproduct. It's simple if one has a fusion reactor: just keep smashing the subatomic particles together until you end up with a nucleus of 79 protons and 118 neutrons. The trick, the really difficult part, is in building a useful fusion reactor. Just be careful with the leftover quarks.

Back in the 1970s everyone was worried that all our gold would go to Saudi Arabia in return for oil. I fantasized that after we gave them all our gold someone would announce just such a functioning fusion reactor.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:47 | Link to Comment SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Geezer: beyond Iron (Fe) the fusion reaction is a NET LOSS of energy so a fusion reactor wont cut it unless you are putting nuclear bomb levels of energy INTO it. All the gold and silver you've ever seen were formed in a supernova explosion (it takes THAT much energy to create those elements)

 

Space travel, asteroid recovery and smelting in orbit are MUCH cheaper methods for increasing the gold supply.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:41 | Link to Comment gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

Cheaper to go get a few Earth-orbit crossing nickle-iron asteroids and process them with solr energy.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:58 | Link to Comment The Deleuzian
The Deleuzian's picture

I too am guilty of wanting lower PM prices to purchase more... Back in 03'-04', $5.00 daily up/downs were big... Now it's by the minute!  I don't even watch the daily's or weekly's for that matter anymore!  The good news is that we have not even seen the 3rd phase of this PM bull market yet!  The 7th-9th inning are where the real fireworks get rolling!!!

I know a lot of you (especially those who got in early) were ridiculed in the past by friend, family, and even spouse alike... It's too easy to shake a stick at these people now..Besides, they now know they were completely misguided for not recognizing what was going on around them... There's just no point to this... When people ask me about it...I just tell them I sold it all already...Why?  I don't think the IQ of the average ZHer out there needs to GOOG that!!

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 11:59 | Link to Comment Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

Typical ZeroHedge nonsense, if a market moves in my favor then I'm a genius, but if it doesn't it's a conspiracy... 

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 12:26 | Link to Comment CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

GATA provided numerous links documenting gold price suppression schemes. But I suppose that you'll just go on paying no attention to the man behind the curtain even though his machinations are clearly visible to those who take the time to turn in his direction and use their own eyes.

Wed, 09/21/2011 - 13:38 | Link to Comment Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

Go long on Tin Foil Hats and Black Helicopters, my friend!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!