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Germany, Greece Quietly Prepare For "Plan D"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

For several weeks now we have been warning that while the conventional wisdom is that Europe will never let Greece slide into default, Germany has been quietly preparing for just that. This culminated on Friday when the schism between Merkel, who is of the persuasion that Greece should remain in the Eurozone, and her Finmin, Wolfgang "Dr. Strangle Schauble" Schauble, who isn't, made Goldman Sachs itself observe that there is: "Growing dissent between Chancellor Merkel and finance minister Schäuble regarding Greece." We now learn, courtesy of the Telegraph's Bruno Waterfield, that Germany is far deeper in Greece insolvency preparations than conventional wisdom thought possible (if not Zero Hedge, where we have been actively warning for over two weeks that Germany is perfectly eager and ready to roll the dice on a Greek default). Yet it is not only Germany that is getting ready for the inevitable. So is Greece.

From the Telegraph: "The German finance ministry is actively pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt and to agree a "haircut" on the bulk of its debts held by banks, a move that would be classed as a default by financial markets.Eurozone finance ministers meet on Monday to approve the next tranche of loans from the EU and the International Monetary Fund, designed to stave off national bankruptcy while the new Greek government puts the country's finances in order. But the severe austerity measures being demanded have caused such fury in Greece, and the cuts required are so deep, that Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, does not believe that any government would be able to implement them." Funny - it is as if Schauble almost knows that any self-respecting country would tell Germany to go to hell. Then again, this is Greece, whose puppet government is one which only answers to banker demands. And we hardly have to remind readers that of every dollar in bailout cash, Greece only sees 19 cents of it. Then again this is Greece, which is full of sound and fury for a day or two, then is happy to pick up the bar of vaseline for the next 6 months until the cycle repeats anew.

More:

"The idea instead is that the Greek government should officially declare itself bankrupt and begin negotiating an even bigger cut with its creditors. For Schäuble, it is more a question of when, not if."

 

The German finance minister's comments are certain to plunge the authorities in Athens into even deeper gloom. On Saturday they tried to sound optimistic, with a cabinet meeting to thrash out the final details of an austerity package.

 

The cuts, including a reduction in the minimum wage, mass redundancies within the public sector, and a slashing of the health and defence budgets, sparked rage on the streets of Athens last week, with buildings set on fire amid angry protests.

 

But the country's politicians are resolutely trying to sound upbeat. "The Greek people have done everything they can and we are determined to make good on our commitments," said Christos Papoutsis, public order minister.

Adding insult to injury...

With Greek morale at rock bottom, the national mood darkened yet further after armed thieves looted a museum on Friday in Olympia, birthplace of the Olympic Games, and stole bronze and pottery artefacts - just weeks after the country's National Gallery was burgled.

 

One Greek newspaper suggested the state could no longer properly look after the nation's immense cultural heritage. "The Greek state has gone bankrupt, let's face it," the conservative daily Kathimerini said in an editorial.

 

"If the state cannot guard the country's great cultural heritage for financial or other reasons it must find other ways to do it."

 

Mr Schäuble's pessimism will not be welcomed in Athens. The hugely influential German politician's doubts have been growing for several weeks, and prompted angry exchanges when Greece accused Germany of trying to drive it out of the euro.

 

His scepticism is not yet fully shared by Angela Merkel, who is said still to be determined to prevent Greece's financial collapse. "She thinks Greece going bust could cause a shock wave that buries other countries - with Spain and Italy among them. It could break apart the entire monetary union," said an official.

 

But it has support from Austria and Finland - holding the prospect that a eurozone meeting tomorrow will fail to agree the next set of EU-IMF payments for Greece.

And lest it be assumed that only Germany is preparing for the inevitable, here is the FT on Greece's own preparation for "Plan D":

On Friday afternoon, Constantine Michalos, president of the Athens chamber of commerce, sat in his office – around the corner from where protesters were hurling chunks of marble at riot police – and contemplated what was once unthinkable: that Greece would default on its debt and then be forced into a messy exit from the euro.

 

“All hell would break loose,” Mr Michalos said, sketching a society that would quickly run short of fuel, food, medicine and necessities. “You would have social upheaval.”

 

This week, that assumption was questioned as never before. Some officials in the Netherlands, Germany and Finland – three of the eurozone’s four remaining triple A governments – now argue that the blowback from a Greek default might not be so debilitating, after all.

 

“I am not advocating a Greek default, hard or soft – but I’m not excluding the possibility of it if the Greeks don’t get their acts together,” Alexander Stubb, Finland’s Europe minister, told the Financial Times.

 

“Europe is prepared. A hell of a lot better prepared than it was on May 9 2010 – and a hell of a lot better prepared than it was last year, so I think we’ve taken the necessary measures.”

And while anyone who is vaguely familiar with rapo banking understands that Greek bonds have been repoed in an infinitely long rehypo chain starting with purchases in the open market, and ending with the ECB, in the process leaving tens of Prime Brokers open for loss exposure, and thus a Greek default would lead to massive impairments, there are those who still think that a Greek default is manageable. It isn't.

Platon Monokroussos, research head at Eurobank EFG, believes a Greek default might even cascade into a full-blown EU exit, because government would probably try to impose capital controls, close borders and take measures that violated EU law.

 

Greece’s mainstream politicians appear aware of this. Lucas Papademos, the prime minister, warned MPs that the country faced “catastrophe” if it did not approve a sweeping austerity package tied to the loan.

Many in Greece realize this. But ever more dont care any more and just want out.

There is a minority – particularly on the far left – that wants out. Their chief argument, endorsed by some well-known foreign economists, is that a devalued drachma would lower wages and instantly make Greece more competitive.

 

They tend to point to Argentina, which broke its peg with the dollar more than a decade ago, defaulted on its foreign debt and has since fared far better than many expected.

 

Yet that comparison overlooks the fact that the Greek economy – unlike Argentina’s – boasts a small production base and few exporters. Most of its companies rely on imports, which would rocket in cost. Sceptical, too, are ordinary citizens. “We are not Argentina,” Mr Stournaras said. “We are not even self-sufficient in agriculture.”

Perhaps there is a reason that whatever happens on Monday will be when the US market is closed - the last thing needed is for the US momentum accentuating HFT algos, who are all that is left of the market, to take whatever trend develops, and run away with it. Or perhaps that is precisely why Europe decided to go ahead with a decision precisely on a day when the US market is closed.

Our personal sentiment is that nothing has changed: the only question on Tuesday will be when the next "drop dead" summit/meeting/shindig will be. And at what point will Greece's fate again not be sealed. Because if Reuters is correct in suggesting that someone, somewhere thinks that that the Greek exchange offer can be consummated in 3 calendar days, or one work day as the 10th and 11th are Saturday and Sunday, then the farce is already long over.

 

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Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:34 | 2173827 Cult_of_Reason
Cult_of_Reason's picture

"NO! NO! NO!"... "Bear Stearns is fine!"... "Bear Stearns is not in trouble"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUkbdjetlY8

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:39 | 2173836 IEVI
IEVI's picture

That was good for a chuckle..thanks.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:14 | 2174128 markmotive
markmotive's picture

At least someone, somewhere is being realistic about the potential outcome to the EU crisis.

Variant Perceptions recently came out with a Primer on the Euro Breakup...

http://www.planbeconomics.com/2012/02/18/variant-perception-a-primer-on-...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:31 | 2174147 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

the german sheeple are about to have their real estate bubble burst:

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15750601,00.html

they just never learn. Hypo and other banks were bailed out in 2008.

Seems like rinse and repeat is just around the corner.  In spades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DePfa_Gruppe

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:55 | 2174267 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Just fucking amazes me the federal government parasites would drag down a whole fucking country, and the countrymen and women would not start hanging the federal worker parasites from the nearest tree.

Just fucking amazes me these Greeks ar so stupid they cannot see its the federal government workers fucking them in the ass time after time.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:48 | 2174331 Hi Ho Silver
Hi Ho Silver's picture

Just fucking amazes me that anyone is fucking amazed.

 

This will be the 6th Greek default in the past 200 years, which works out to once every generation.

No fucking surprises. Just another Greek tragedy.

“We are not even self-sufficient in agriculture.”  - Stournaras

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:59 | 2174354 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

So in fact..."it's plan Double D." AH! Now i understand!http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BZwuTo7zKM8

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:09 | 2174545 economics1996
economics1996's picture

That video reminded me of the Air Force.  

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:13 | 2174713 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Old king cole was a merry old sole my friend...

This fevered pitch too will die down. The will default but as I have said...not yet.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:43 | 2174777 redpill
redpill's picture

They should default of course.  As to getting through to the next stage, I think Greece's best chance is getting their country back into shape as a tourist destination ASAP.  A clean, safe Greece with a devalued Drachma would be a huge attraction for European tourists, who would also still have the option of spending Euros there (even after exiting, Euros would still be the primary currency trading hands).  Greeks need to go out of their way to be extremely welcoming to all tourists from across the globe until they are able to otherwise diversify their economy in a self-sufficient manner.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:10 | 2174544 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Put these politicians heads on a stick.  Hang the bankers.  Fire 90% of the federal workers.  Problem solved.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:25 | 2174657 Pumpkin
Pumpkin's picture

You forgot the lawyers. Don't forget the lawyers!

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:51 | 2174339 ArmchairRevolut...
ArmchairRevolutionary's picture

Yep. It's the federal government workers. It certainly has nothing to do with the bankers.

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:05 | 2174542 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Who borrowed 160% GDP?  Politiicans.  For who?  It sure the fuck wasn't for the people.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:08 | 2174707 loub215
loub215's picture

Welcome to the American Dream...

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 16:46 | 2175673 Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

GTFO. The greeks are the only western people that really see how their government rapes them in tandem with the banks and actually have the balls to pelt law enforcement with molotovs on a weekly basis, and have been doing so for years now, and keep on fighting even if they are going on empty stomachs to allow their kids the chance to have 1 or 2 meals a day.

You can talk the talk, now wake up to your own country's situation and I dare you to walk the walk as the greeks do. 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 05:44 | 2174515 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

German real estate bubble? Wishful thinking. 60% of the residential market is rental. A bit difficult to overvalue and even then not impacting financially fragile segments of the population.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:45 | 2173844 kill switch
kill switch's picture

Don't be silly,,,,cramer

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:14 | 2173902 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

....triX are for the Bavarian Illuminatti!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:26 | 2173933 Michael
Michael's picture

Why do virtually all TV news reporters sound like they're in a constant state of panic when they speak?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:38 | 2173946 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Their handlers haven't successfully convinced them the files containing the specifics of their lives and daily routines have been contained?

Nah, that's not it. Probably just want to induce fear into their mindless followers.

Ever wonder why you don't see people from the ghetto in the OWS/TEA Party news clips? Is it because those people don't care? Is it because those people aren't interested in the mastabatory practices of non-violence promoting white trust fund hippies? Is it because there's a growing coalition bubbling quietly underground amongst the disenfranchised socioeconomic classes being oppressed by the DC/NY Axis of Evil?

Long Hot Summer, crackerz

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:07 | 2174642 EnglishMajor
EnglishMajor's picture

It is going to look like whack a mole with a police baton in a Chuck E Cheese full of tear gas, except on TV. It will still look like the American Idol stage there.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:37 | 2173956 knukles
knukles's picture

amyl nitrite

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:31 | 2174059 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

They should plan for "Preparation H".

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:37 | 2174066 Michael
Michael's picture
In case you missed it; Germany drawing up plans for Greece to leave the euro Plans for Greece to default, potentially leaving the euro, have been drafted in Germany as the European Union begins to face up to the fact that Greek debt is spiralling out of control - with or without a second bailout.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9091021/Germany-drawing-up-plans-for-Greece-to-leave-the-euro.html

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:11 | 2174121 knukles
knukles's picture

Dontcha just fucking love it?
As if this is any new news whatsoever.
To have gone this far, dumping so much "good" play money after bad money just to pay the bankers back who should have never lent money in the first place to a social welfare paradise with absolutely no fiscal discipline making Greece an unforgivable credit risk which they all knew about in any case, meaning all the secondary lending has been done under false pretenses, ie Fraudulent Conveyance....
All so the bankers don't go under cutting off the endless free money to their enablers, the politicians.
Jesus.
And it ain't like it's opaque and behind the scenes.
It's absolutely amazing that the bankers have yet to be the subject of public town square hangings, whippings, beheadings, drawing and quartering and associated public ammusements of yore.
Must be lot of flouride in them there waters.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:43 | 2174176 Hulk
Hulk's picture

Damn knukles, you just summed up the entire Northern Hemisphere...Nice job!

edit: I hereby dub knukles second paragraph as "the financial theory of everything"

A big QED for knukles!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:58 | 2174269 economics1996
economics1996's picture

The whole fucking world.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:53 | 2174343 hardcleareye
hardcleareye's picture

Hear Hear, knukles rules...... always look for knukles post!

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:40 | 2174671 machineh
machineh's picture

I hereby dub knukles second paragraph as "the financial theory of everything"

Well deserved!

I would add that when "Knukles Financial Theory of Everything" is reduced to closed form and solved for its eigenvalues, the answer is: 42.

No need to thank me, but you can buy me a drink when you get rich. ;-)

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:52 | 2174194 Michael
Michael's picture

I could hear you screaming at the top of your lungs knuckles as you were typing that.

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:01 | 2174275 Michael
Michael's picture

GODZILLA Blue Oyster Cult

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVYDA5ko940

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:32 | 2174312 economics1996
Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:37 | 2174318 candyman
candyman's picture

i agree but the markets ignore these facts. ponzie all the way

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 04:28 | 2174483 JennaChick
JennaChick's picture

Kyle Bass on where the shit is going to hit the fan and where should you be at the time: http://www.armadamarkets.com/market-info/videos/

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 14:47 | 2175371 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

mattu13048, posting as the sock puppet JennaChick because his mattu13048 account was deleted for spamming the armadamarkets.com site, spammed the armadamarkets.com site thusly:

Kyle Bass on where the shit is going to hit the fan and where should you be at the time: [link to scammer fraud site removed]

Still shilling for the armadamarkets.com fraudulent spammer website, whose business model is based on spamming? I see.

Fuck off, spammer.

Since you insist on polluting ZH with your spam, turnabout is fair play. Here's something for the search engine crawlers:

armadamarkets.com makes its money by kidnapping Estonian children and selling them into sex slavery in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates.

armadamarkets.com runs a fraudulent scam market analysis site that is based on spamming. This site is just a front for their Estonian child kidnapping sex slavery business.

armadamarkets.com terror bomb anthrax shopping mall claymore mine grenade launcher IED assassination hijack Al Qaida ricin electromagnetic pulse Federal Reserve reefer Butthole Surfers doobie

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 04:29 | 2174484 JennaChick
JennaChick's picture

Germany will never leave the eurozone, they would lose their control over Europe if they did so. You can move on now. Nothing to see here.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 06:18 | 2174526 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"prompted angry exchanges when Greece accused Germany of trying to drive it out of the euro" - meanwhile the BritPressCorp is on overdrive debating how Greece is better off leaving the EUR for the Drachma (not what 70% of Greeks want). Spin, spin, spin...

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:19 | 2174652 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture

Greece is better off leaving the EUR for the Drachma (not what 70% of Greeks want)

 

Is there a link to these public opinion polls? I don't doubt it is true, but then again, polls are what they are. The phrasing of the question is highly significant. Do 70% of Greeks want their yearly budget drawn up by Brussels? Are you in Brussels? I find your currency avatar curious, but I will say that at least the EU marks their bullion to market and rebalances, so the € isn't just an embossed toilet tissue - yet.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 14:41 | 2175356 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

You are right, polls are what they are. Budgets drawn in Brussels? Complicated question - I know many in Southern Europe who would answer yes. No, I have nothing to do with Brussels.

My avatar? Your avatar point too to interesting questions... It made you think, didn't it? I see the world at the brink of serious currency wars... The EURUSD is already a political pair. Interesting times, as the Chinese jinx goes.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 19:25 | 2176071 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

I totally remember that clip from Cramer.  And then a few days later, wham.  Europe and the US think that they are "okay", but they don't know because of entropy haven increased with the addition of more variables in the mix.  Now they can't use the old charts to figure out the future and they can't use them to say if they are alright financially.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:37 | 2173831 Conman
Conman's picture

Does anyone know what the implications are of the German President resigning? From what I gather its mostly ceremonial title like queen of england?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:08 | 2173892 Neidhammel
Neidhammel's picture

Taxpayer to pay him “Ehrensold” of € 200K p.a. until he kicks the bucket, Merkel in trouble now to find another moocher willing to earn € 200K p.a. for just shaking hands. No further implications. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:11 | 2173898 Conman
Conman's picture

Well apparently she had to cancel a trip to Italy on Friday because of it. Wondering what this distraction means for them if any. Guessing not much.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:39 | 2173961 knukles
knukles's picture

Yeah, see.  The wheels fell off when she had to stay around just to shake hands.
My brother has ALS and my sister always has DT's so I know a lot about shakes.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:56 | 2174200 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

NEIDHAMMEL servus vom "anderen" Hammel:)))

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:23 | 2173928 WebSurfy
WebSurfy's picture

Our German President did some "politically incorrect" warnings towards the bankers in a speech last year., followed by the MSM who did their designated job chasing him (with hillarious stories). They feared he would not pass the ESM treaty. But now everything is  "fine" again. They're going to install an appropiate puppet soon. By the way, the ESM is a MONSTER, leading us (now finally and officially) towards financial dictatorship. That's sth. the MSM don't tell us... so 99% are still sleeping

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:33 | 2173948 Conman
Conman's picture

Just like the US, we are mutually screwed. MSM tells us when to panic, look at our debt. Last year it was a big deal, now its a barely news when the ceiling gets raised.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:41 | 2173837 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

You have to wonder if the theatrics of this crisis has come to a head. Shortly, we will find out who Cui Bono from all this drama.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:03 | 2173880 navy62802
navy62802's picture

This is precisely what I've been wondering for a while now. Who is profiting from the delay.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:46 | 2173974 DosZap
DosZap's picture

navy62802

That's an easy one, GREECE.

They have run the SCAM of the century on the Moneychangers............................they have been milking this cow for MULTIPLE BILLIONS.

Smart as a Fox.........................

Gog believes Greece leaving is a WIN.

Wrong........................look what they took and kept to walk away scot free.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:00 | 2174199 oldman
oldman's picture

Hey Dos,

Try that line above in the streets of Athens-----I'll bet you will have a good time     om

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:00 | 2174003 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

the perspectus has to be issued 30 days in advance of march 20 to fund.....monday is d-day...again

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:44 | 2173841 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

Ironically mr. Schauble will be the guy who will help Greece to regain it's place in Europe faster than their own politicians, I'm not sure it's his agenda but sure it looks like it.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:42 | 2173964 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

bad cop - good cop,... your screwed either way

two years passed and all queued to perfection

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:49 | 2173848 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

I think the U.S should continue doing what Greece did before it's collapse. 

Because a country of 300,000,000 in a world of 7,000,000,000 surely cannot suffer the same fate. 

Get your welfare on and expand public unions because we don't know how this story ends. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:56 | 2173862 maxmad
maxmad's picture

This was Hitler's plan all along... Let everyone think the war is over and then BOOM!  67 years later-I'll take Greece down!  BRILLIANT!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:04 | 2173883 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Patience Liebchen, patience...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:27 | 2173934 Matt
Matt's picture

Timed to  coincide with the invasion from the Moon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py_IndUbcxc

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:56 | 2173863 sasebo
sasebo's picture

And tell me again please what is Greece defaulting on? Some Greek bonds bought by some bankers using "money" created by some bank clerk sitting down in front of some computer terminal? So they're trying to get Greece to repay some loans bought by some banks with money created out of thin air with some other money created out of thin air? Yeah, right. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:57 | 2173870 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

And tell me again please what is Greece defaulting on?

Money they borrowed to fuel an entitlement society they could not afford. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:37 | 2173958 sasebo
sasebo's picture

Yeah, we know all about that. But did the borrow real money or funny money.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:45 | 2173965 knukles
knukles's picture

Depends on whether you're the borrower or lender who gets paid or not....  Or if you're just a casual observer of the human condition like myself and then it's all just for shits and grins anyhow.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:04 | 2174280 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

No that isn't it,  it is whom enforces the loan repayment,  men with clipboards or men with guns?  Funny money or hard currency someone will try to enforce the terms.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:07 | 2175022 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

You know what, Greece should take the bailout, use it to buy gold and then default.

The gold price would go through the roof. Then they sell it all again at a higher price. Then they exit the Euro, create a devalued Drachma and prosper.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:51 | 2173983 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Yeah, we know all about that. But did the borrow real money or funny money.

Ask the Greeks who have neither real money nor funny money. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:14 | 2174125 knukles
knukles's picture

Touche!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:48 | 2174186 redpill
redpill's picture

Real money?  Funny money?  It's all not Greek to me!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:36 | 2174166 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

And who are 'they"? Who got how much of what was 'borrowed"? Do you really think that the average Greek got rich off those loans? And can you name me one society in the world where the governments aren't playing 'bread and circuses' aka entitlements as a means of extending their power? How many people do you know in the US who refuse their 'entitlements'? Do you? Do you know that Ayn Rand collected her Social Security check every month.

People who rant on about those lazy Greeks are simply dupes of the bankster elite, buying their propaganda line without thinking. Greek society has been sold out by the oligarchs within Greek society to their fellow fat cats in the Eurozone and now people around the world are playing the 'blame the victims' game with suspicious enthusiasm. I'll bet you use the word 'sheeple' at least ten times a day to describe your fellow Americans, right? And how much do you think your contempt for others is going to contribute to them making positive changes in their lives? Or is your objective merely to vent your impotent rage?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:08 | 2174213 oldman
oldman's picture

Well said Spirit,

BTW---- what is 'odious debt'? Isn't that when the fed pays the banks taxpayers money without their consent?

We don't owe the banks a cent----anymore than the Greeks do.

The banks are on the hook no matter how much they give obama or any other pol

the debt is also odious because if we fail our taxes we go to jail

I wish someone would bring this issue forward                   om

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:54 | 2174688 BidnessMan
BidnessMan's picture

Odious Debt - one definition....

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/odious-debt-definition

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:36 | 2174381 MIDTOWN
MIDTOWN's picture

Its time for the deadbeat bankers to suck it up and take responsibility for the bad loans (Bonds) that they wrote.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:32 | 2173945 Matt
Matt's picture

And tell me again please what is Greece defaulting on?

Who are the main holders of Greek bonds? Greek pension funds, Greek Banks, and Banks in other countries.

Who are amongst the primary holders of bank equity? pension funds

Who is most affected by a Greek default? pensioners and those close to retirement.

Sure, bankers make and lose their bonuses, but let's not think that a few hundered million here and there in banker bonuses accounts for hundreds of billions of dollars of debt and hundreds of trillions of dollars of CDS.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:44 | 2173971 sasebo
sasebo's picture

Yeah, & the dog ate my homework. Real capitalism & free markets is not a bed of roses. It's the school of hard knocks. Bailing out a bunch of stupid assholes is what got us where we are. Sounds like the Greek pension funds need to  learn a little about investing 101. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:15 | 2174036 Acet
Acet's picture

The shareholders of those banks (pension funds and otherwise) did not do their duty of making sure that the companies they owned were properly managed and did not take undue risks and kept doing those small things that lenders are supposed to do before extending a loan to anybody like check their credit history.

 

Then again the problem is a lot deeper than that:

- The people that own the money in pension funds do not control it. That money is controlled by pension fund managers, a form of banker who, like all other bankers, get huge bonuses risking other people's money. Worse, those pension fund managers tend to move around within the financial industry ... often ending up in cozy jobs in the banks where they invested large amounts of money they managed in their previous job as pension fund managers. The laws (bought and paid for with campaign contributions, insider info and cozy sinecures for retiring politicians) in most countries with private pension funds make those funds far too opaque, almost impossible to compare, and almost impossible to leave (or very costly), hence there is little competition in that industry. It's a bit of a cabal and in places like the City and Wall Street, they all know each other and do each other favours (using other people's money, of course).

 

So:

- Bankers, bought laws so that they would control lots of other people's money, invested that money in each other's banks and lent it to the kind of debtor you wouldn't lend a used piece of toiled paper to. From this bankers personally made millions year after year while the ponzi kept going while taking no personal risk whatsoever. Now that the ponzi is blowing up, all that money from other people that bankers were supposed to have managed properly turns out to have been seriously mismanaged and the solution is that .... the Greeks have to suffer for it!???

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 14:19 | 2175288 Matt
Matt's picture

This is the same with US Treasuries; isn't social securty one of the biggest holders of UST?

The Ratings agencies rated UST AAA, so it was a 'safe' investment.

How do you do due diligence to anticipate how the next president and future congresses will act?

What other option is there, force the general public to manage their own pensions? Model your pension system after the one implemented by Augusto Pinochet?

If you make people work for a flat wage rather than a bonus system, how do you encourage performance and punish failure? Do you allow people to move their pension between managers at whim?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:52 | 2173987 dhengineer
dhengineer's picture

The bankers don't give a lukewarm crap about the Greeks and their relatively small debts.  What they are terrified about is all of the derivative contracts that will trigger right after a rather messy uncontained BK and default.  The resulting explosion will make an attack on Iran seem like a Sunday School picnic.  When the smoke clears, most of the world's major banks will be smoldering craters... The counterparties will all default as well, because there is not enough money in the universe to paper this over if the derivatives are triggered.  And then Portugal will be up to bat, followed by Italy and Spain and Ireland...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:59 | 2174002 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

Trillion dollar notes are coming to a central press near you.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:50 | 2174191 sasebo
sasebo's picture

When the smoke clears, most of the world's major banks will be smoldering craters... The counterparties will all default as well,

You mean the ones that have been creating all that "money" out of thin air & loaning it out at 10-20%? Zero divided by 10-20% is infinity where I come from.

Adios, MF.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 02:32 | 2174412 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

0/x% = 0, not infinity!

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:09 | 2174292 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Those derivatives would require those same laws to be enforced at the point of a gun and that is never going to happen.  At least not at the expense of the bankers, the Greeks will be marched off to work camps first.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:51 | 2174684 machineh
machineh's picture

When the smoke clears, most of the world's major banks will be smoldering craters ...

That would be cosmic justice, my man. But it's also wishful thinking.

Greece's default will cause a short, sharp shock in markets, answered by a massive bailout funded by the ECB and other central banks (a la USA 2008). 

Having nowhere else to go, the flood of official liquidity will proceed to bubble stocks worldwide.

Don't believe it? Ask yourself what happened after Mexico 1994, Asian crisis 1997, Russia/LTCM 1998, Argentina 2002. It happened before, and it will happen again, because nearly everyone thinks it can't.

Bubble III, comrades -- coming soon to a bourse/casino near you. It's for our own good, you know. But remember that the house always wins.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:43 | 2174072 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

Greeks, you better kill the billionaires before they kill you.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:55 | 2173864 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

Ouzo is Transitory.. no matter what happens!

Buy some NETFLIX and APPL and relax!

The FED can and will continue Open Market Operations and the Stock Market will be 16k when the World Blows Up!

and even that will be Bullish for the NYSE!

World Instability ='s NYSE's Stability! PROOF!! that Bernake / Greenspan were Right!

Sustainable Drama, all the better to hold down We the People with!

De-Population is coming to a nieghborhood near you.. and NO! Baby Boomers! You will NOT! make it out! LULZ! Ole' Timers!!

Baby Boomers Bullshit Economy.. the gift that just keeps on giving!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:58 | 2173873 maxmad
maxmad's picture

BBBE = Baby Boomers Bullshit Economy!  Brilliant!

 

From the Greatest Generation to the Worst Gereration!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:50 | 2173982 knukles
knukles's picture

And sustainable, natural and organic with nobody or nothing fucking with it.
Hallejuliah.
Whatyever

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:56 | 2173865 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

Default Greece. The people of the world are with you. It's time the banksters and their government puppets suffer like all the people they look down on and laugh at.

You gave the world democracy once; please, for the sake of all that is just, do it again. Hang them all.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:01 | 2173878 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Hang who? Be specific. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:39 | 2174173 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Hang anyone who looks too well-fed, too expensively groomed, or who drives a luxury car. Also anyone who is a lawyer, banker, politician, useless trophy wife, or corporate executive. That's for starters. So many lamp posts, so many candidates.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:56 | 2174187 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

So hang all dentists and doctors? Last I checked they were well-fed, groomed nicely, and drove luxury cars. 

That's a great idea, wish I thunk it. 

HANG ALL THE DOCTORS/DENTISTS!!!!!! Damn those hard working succesful ASSHOLES!!!!!

Fuck ya bitch! Get your revolution on! Hang anyone with a nice shirt!!!! FUCK YA!

We can make do without those leaches. 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 03:17 | 2174440 John_Coltrane
John_Coltrane's picture

Actually, I believe Pol Pot simplied the selection process by killing anyone with glasses since that showed they could likely read.  So, that's another idiotic approach.  Punish talent and achievement, a al Obama, and you'll certainly get a lot less of that.  This is the problem with the politics of envy you just keep trying to divide a smaller pie so everyone can be equally miserable.

By the way, anyone who traveled to Greece in the 70s knows that though very poor, the people were quite happy and friendly.  The cheap drachma made it a tourist mecca as we Ireland at the same time.  The problem is with a single currency implemented by fabian socialists whose one world agenda is well known.  So, anything that can lead to less centralization of power is always a good thing.  Let the great unwind accelerate.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:34 | 2174237 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Hang an entrepreneur who is wealthy because he built a business, employed people, provided opportunities and created wealth for himself and others? Hang him, too? For being productive, and as a result, wealthy?

That's the danger here. Not everyone who is wealthy is a banker or a politician. Your handle was their driving force. They embodied the American Spirit that we were all taught to believe in as children. They made something of themselves. But, in the panic and rage, it is likely that anyone with wealth will be seen as the "enemy" to those without. There is real danger of that happening, which would be a tragedy.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:55 | 2174266 IndicaTive
IndicaTive's picture

Too much focus on the hanging Dawg. I'm just a N00B drip in the ZH bucket, but ConRad makes some blunt points worth including in analysis. IMO. Except for the hanging and skinning everyone stuff.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:13 | 2174361 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Hang anyone who looks too well-fed, too expensively groomed, or who drives a luxury car. 

Those weren't my words. That's scary though, people wanting to kill doctors/dentists because they have money. 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 02:58 | 2174422 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

What a fucking idiot.

I would just as soon hang whining envy driven perma-victims like yourself completely unable to accept the reality that Greeks themselves have been complicit in the entire thing as long as they could get away with dodging taxes (an art in that culture) and milking the government in some way or another. Did they get screwed by the banks and politicians? Yep.  Were they perfectly content to go along with the entire thing as long as they had someone elses easy money and the merry go round was turning? Yep.

You dont actually know any Greeks do you? No, of course not, but it rarely stops your sort from blabbering on. You are as big a problem as a corrupted financial and political system.  Its always someone elses fault- drooling idiots who live beyond their means are never part of the problem to you fools and you refuse to accept the fact that they bear any responsibility for the mess. Here in the US the tards who took out mortgages and loans they couldnt afford are just as much a part of the problem as a corrupted system that enabled it (and relied on it for phony "growth") but somehow you seem unable to grasp that the people themselves are every bit as responsible and spout off a bunch of stupid leftist drivel.

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right; a fat leech on my neck and you ticks nipping at my legs.

Lamp posts indeed.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 04:47 | 2174490 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

You can say what you want about me. 

Greece did itself.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:21 | 2174552 fiddy pence haf...
fiddy pence haff pound's picture

led and bob

 

If you think that the man on the Greek street has any blame for the collapse,

then you're just armchair analysts with 20/20 rearward vision.

People just try to survive.

If you watch the recent Keiser Report with Charles Hugh Smith, what he said is that

the US is corrupt through and through because the people realise that the top rung

is full of corruption, so people have to "game the system" to survive.

Assuming you both are American, what are you gonna say to that?

"congrats to the Greeks for gaming their corrupt government"  or

"god damn those corrupt American politicians and every other corrupt American"?

Or I could just blame you for America's growing corruption. RU enjoying this?

I've said many times that the world is becoming more like Greece every day, and

you'd do well to learn from Greeks about how to survive.

 

Mon, 02/20/2012 - 11:19 | 2175553 Lednbrass
Lednbrass's picture

My wife is from Athens- and thinks that this was inevitable because of the culture and that they are collectively a bunch of idiots.  Ducking taxation while squeezing whatever you can from the government are par for the course in much of the society, the results of that are quite predictable.  I know her relatives over there have little compunction about playing as many shell games as possible regarding income, that society has deteriorated to the point where you either have alot of money or have nothing, the middle class has been ground out and all are complicit.  The upper and lower tiers drained all the blood from the middle, just as is happening here.

It is as much the people at fault as the government and financial structures, just as here.  My problem is with the "boo hoo, its all the big guys' fault- they made everyone borrow lots of money" as if somehow people are forced to live way beyond what they can handle on credit they cant afford.

The last thing I need is survival lessons from Greeks, but they could stand to learn from me.  I live in the boonies where there is little to no crime, grow much of my own food, am armed to the teeth, and have drastically reduced debt.  I will weather any storms far better then most, and certainly better then most in Athens.

Sat, 03/03/2012 - 07:24 | 2219405 fiddy pence haf...
fiddy pence haff pound's picture

I'll agree with your survival techniques, except for the military hardware. That just shows paranoia, especially

since you're declaring your horde.

The smart Greeks are also well connected with their hometowns, where they have olive trees and gardens and bartering.

 

Yup, there are lots of Greeks who cheat, but the government has thousands of people whose job it is to

catch financial crime and they just sit in their offices. There's no fear of being caught.

Secondly, when you know your government wastes and pockets your money, you don't feel that bad about

cheating.

Thirdly, Greeks don't get much for their money. "World's worst public sector" is not an exaggeration.

You gotta pay for hospital care, if you want to live, and you gotta pay for language learning and passing exams.

 

That public sector also kills of legitimate businesses, and the entrenched oligarchy kills off the rest.

It's a wonder that Greece produces so many professors and doctors, but most of the best ones ply their trade

outside the homeland.

So, ya it's a sick country and that's without discussing the role of the foreigners in everything. But, the rest

of the world is becoming like Greece.

NYTimes on Greece- great article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/magazine/the-way-greeks-live-now.html?...

Wall Street Journal on Greek public sector

http://blogs.wsj.com/eurocrisis/2012/02/09/greeces-uncompetitiveness-discuss/ 

 

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:00 | 2173877 Cdad
Cdad's picture

There is no way that anyone alive on planet Earth could have seen this coming.

Oh, and Schauble eats babies, too.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:05 | 2173885 luna_man
luna_man's picture

 

 

MY MAIN MAN, the "bar of vaseline" won't work this time!...Hey, boys, push out the tub!...Better yet, roll out the barrel!

 

That should work

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:52 | 2173986 knukles
knukles's picture

A bar of Vasoline, eh?
I've heard of many things, but Never a Bar of Vasoline.
Lemme guess, it's shaped like a ......

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:25 | 2174375 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Shaped like a jar of lye soap.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:19 | 2173924 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Sooner or later people will realise it's not what politicians dish out that matters but more importantly what people can cope with and accept. At the moment these two factors are poles apart.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:24 | 2173929 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

"Yet that comparison overlooks the fact that the Greek economy – unlike Argentina’s – boasts a small production base and few exporters. Most of its companies rely on imports, which would rocket in cost. Sceptical, too, are ordinary citizens. “We are not Argentina,” Mr Stournaras said. “We are not even self-sufficient in agriculture.”"

..!

...Sounds to me like they better learn how to farm, and quick.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:56 | 2173992 Missiondweller
Missiondweller's picture

I wonder if any Greeks citizens are "preppers"

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:19 | 2174550 Wolferl
Wolferl's picture

"Mr Stournaras said. “We are not even self-sufficient in agriculture.”" "

 

Wow, you found a Greek who lives in reality.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:24 | 2173931 divedivedive
divedivedive's picture

I've had a few disjoint thoughts on this issue over the last couple of weeks.

- Why don't they give Greece a monthly/quarterly allowance based on acheivements.  I don't see much difference as with a businessman going to the bank for an extension to a loan.

- Doesn't Greece have one of the worlds largest shipping industries ? Isn't that really the Greek gem ? Can't that be put to some national good.

- Other than shipping what do they have ? They have some pretty islands, which from time to time my wife and I looked into for vacationing, only to come to the conclusion they were too expensive. I realize $190Bn is a lot of tourist dollars but maybe the world could help out by planning some vacations.

- What does Greek populace  have to bootstrap itself ? I wish there was a 'Peace Corp' like organization that could infuse a national purpose. I know nothing about Greece, but I envision a lot of salt water. Perhaps they can (with the world's help) come up with a viable solution to water desalination or something. 

- I keep thinking of another Haiti like situation. 

Sorry - I realize these aren't very 'economic' thoughts.

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:30 | 2173943 Conman
Conman's picture

Because most of the bailout isn't for the Greek. its to pay for thier debt, right back into the banksters coffers.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:10 | 2174007 divedivedive
divedivedive's picture

A twist on that - I sometimes wonder if the world wouldn't be better off if all those sub-prime mortgages etc which at some point were 'performing' to some extent had been extended as they were for a while. I think that was Hilary's thought in 2008.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:33 | 2173949 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

Well, they've got Europe's largest gold mine. But, an Arabian Prince already bought that. So....

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:42 | 2174179 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

But at least you're thinking human thoughts, not ranting in jargon divedivedive. keep it up friend. The world needs more people who care enough to ask these questions from the heart.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:25 | 2173932 strangeglove
strangeglove's picture

If the Glove dont fit, You must acquit!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:36 | 2173952 tobinajwels
tobinajwels's picture

So does plan d mean they default? Iam so confused what happens on Monday?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:51 | 2173977 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

one thing is for certain,... the turkey's are in a raftering frenzy?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:50 | 2173981 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

On Monday the market is closed so anything can and will happen. Europe will soar or crash and by 9:30 EST Tuesday the markets will return to normal. At least that is what normally happens on a US Monday holiday. Some day that might change. The default is coming, but when? I'm thinking that 100% cash is a comfortable place to be right now. I'm certain to miss that big move when it first happens but I've found that having one's face ripped off is unpleasant.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:41 | 2174245 WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

No shit, Fred. I did okay last summer but I've given back most of my gains since the fall, trying to time the top. I've failed at that, so I'll sit back now and keep the powder dry. When this thing tops, there will be opportunities to ride it down without having to time it perfectly.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:05 | 2174016 imamonkey
imamonkey's picture

Unless Greece pulls their middle finger out again, this faux "bailout" should occur Monday & then they default on March 20th when they have to pay. I think that's the orderly plan D ...

Kinda reminds me of the Sub-Prime scam but they pulled that on an entire country ...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:37 | 2173957 Troy Ounce
Troy Ounce's picture

 

 

Plan Ph D.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:42 | 2173966 tobinajwels
tobinajwels's picture

That makes sense plan d! Mainstream media just doesnt get it!

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:54 | 2174566 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Plan D = Desperation?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:40 | 2173962 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

What if the Alcoa deal didn't fall thru. LOL

 

Rothschild sued over story on Russian oligarch and EU trade chief 

Case Number: HQ10D02547

Nevermind, this is just another crazy conspiracy story. 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:09 | 2174023 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

food for thought,...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Rothschild_4th_Baron_Rothschild

bSkyB & Murdock, James & nate

good digging

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:46 | 2173975 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

Derivatives meltdown bitchez

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:51 | 2173984 Lord Welligton
Lord Welligton's picture

And while anyone who is vaguely familiar with rapo banking

New one to me.  :)

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:55 | 2173990 ZDRuX
ZDRuX's picture

Greek Cabinet Approves Final Set of Austerity Measures

 

http://t.co/CRvQPqk1

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:57 | 2173996 whisperin
whisperin's picture

I think we need to look deeper into this from a German perspective and they have to be thinking how do I get this hook outta my (Germany) rear end? As previously posted at ZH before after Greece then comes the rest of the PIIGS. The Eurocrats are trying to bail them out because it looks like Germany has to pick up the tab by treaty. So could the real black swan be that Germany exits the EURO? That is the only way I see them cutting the tie to their obligations by treaty. Chaos yes. Unintended consequences yes. The only solution I see is that they all give up sovereignty and form a United States of Europe. Like that'll happen. What about all those DM's they supposedly had printed. I mean surely they'll use them for something. What say you all?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:37 | 2174004 ekm
ekm's picture

Sir,

How could you have a "german perspective"? Did you ever live in Europe?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:04 | 2174011 Conman
Conman's picture

I thought the consensus was that german economy depends on exporting to fellow eu members. So, its in their best interest to keep them all on the hook. Isolationism=bye bye export economy

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:15 | 2174034 ekm
ekm's picture

Yes, but as long as it can last. If the importers can't buy anything any longer, the only way is katharsis (ancient greek word for total cleanup)

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:18 | 2174038 Conman
Conman's picture

Of course they can buy, when there's infinite liquidity . More debt, more imports, more  exports , more of the same BS.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:22 | 2174047 ekm
ekm's picture

That is correct up until the point that the interest from infinite liquidity is unbearable. Remember, MONEY IS PRINTED AS DEBT. I just looked at the Canadian dollars I use every day and the US$ I hold. It says: NOTE - which is debt. Strange enough, I'm looking at a 10 euro bill now and it has no words at all. Just a signature.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:37 | 2174065 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Euro banknotes == notgeld.

And they do mention that "the taxpayers of europe promise to pay upon demand the amount of XXX euros".

You might not be able to find that out because it's printed in chinese with UV ink.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:47 | 2174069 ekm
ekm's picture

I am actually at awe. Paper money is LEGAL TENDER. It's like a legal contract. The Euro paper has no legal writing? Pretty strange. I never noticed that before.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:44 | 2174076 ekm
ekm's picture

The nice joke aside, I think euro is printed here in Canada. I forgot the name of the manufacturer. Same one that prints canadian dollars. In structure, both CAN$ and Euro look very alike.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:55 | 2174092 Conman
Conman's picture

I hear you, I keep waiting for that to happen, but in Bizarro-Earth we live in debt = infinite. Look at the US. we jsut keep on keeping on. Increase the debt ceiling year after year - bo problem. Everyone knows its a problem but we jsut hope we die before all hell breaks loose.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:06 | 2174109 ekm
ekm's picture

I agree. Timing is impossible. Meredith Whitney is brilliant but made the mistake of what I call "prophetic rapture" (quote from the Old Testament).

Unless one is prophet (communicating with God), timing is impossible.

Now let me ask you something? Do you think bankers are communicating with God?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:15 | 2174035 Goldtoothchimp09
Goldtoothchimp09's picture

Seems like the most intelligent and efficient decision Germany could make... But........these are Politicians making the decisions!!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:57 | 2173998 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

may i have the envelope, please?

...next tranche, BiCheZ!!!  <balloons, marching bands, and children bearing flags>

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:03 | 2174009 ekm
ekm's picture

Hey slewie,

I'm having a feeling that just before "the closed envelope" with "the tranche", we're going to have a 1987 style diving?

How about 3000 dow points vanishing in 3 days?

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 02:06 | 2174393 oldman
oldman's picture

@EKM

I was there in '87--out of forty five orders to buy at prices from one to two points above the market on the blackest day-----not a single fill---and no response from the the NYSE for more than three days

Then the 'market stabilization' plan----the old-timers mostly quit over the next year or so---they knew it was over when the market support came in---I still had to pay the rent----But not this time bitchez!!

om   

thanks---I'd forgotten a lot of this shit

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 15:20 | 2175501 ekm
ekm's picture

Oldman

Tell us more please. I'm 39 now. At that time I lived in communism, I was 15 and playing soccer on the beach trying to impress quite sweet mediterranean girls.

I've read so much about this stuff and it just sounds like 1987 but have not met anybody who actually experienced it.

Tell us more.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:01 | 2174005 imamonkey
imamonkey's picture

Who the fuck thought it was a great idea to let Greece into the EU knowing full goddman well they had this crazy non-producing economy? Fuck germany do your due dillegence & figure it out next time

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:05 | 2174015 Conman
Conman's picture

You can thank the squid for that.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:17 | 2174019 ekm
ekm's picture

Sir

As a euopean from ...where else, the mediterranean who is addicted to studying this stuff in my abundant free time, I am explaining to you that Euro is NOT, and I repeat is NOT an economic project. Euro is a political project. There were about 30 years of preparations and studies. Nobody cared if it made sense financially because.....hear this....because they thought that at the first disaster....a FISCAL UNION would be forced on everybody.

This is the dream of Charlemangne, Napoleon, Hitler etc. A unified Europe, but without a dictator.

The results of the experiment:

Enter your opinion.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:22 | 2174048 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

The results of the experiment:

 WWIII

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:29 | 2174057 ekm
ekm's picture

It could be, but chances are very very slim. USA is absolutely the ruler of the planet right now. Nobody would be out of mind to openly stand up to it with real actions. Forget little stuff like Al Qaeda etc. I'm talking about Russia, or China etc. Iran is so nothing.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 03:20 | 2174443 arizona11912
arizona11912's picture

Hi EKM,

 

You are 100% correct. It is indeed a politcal project and this time it will succeed. There is a transition of internaitonal geopolitcal power from the USA to the EU. The whole Euro-zone project is being set up exactly the way its supposed to.  It goes in a series of steps: 1) Trade Union  2) Fiscal Union 3) Monetary Union 4) Political Union.

For the Euro-zone to work they had to invert steps two and three. Why? Would Greece or any other country joined the Euro-zone if EU Commisioners said; " Join my Euro currency but you cant run deficits and we have to monitor your fiscal budget to make sure your're staying in line." Of course they woudlnt have. But thats the kicker. Burn the bridges behind you as they move to a polititcal union. 

O by the way I'm selling preorder Euro-bonds. Come and get them!! Euro-bonds bitchez!! 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 15:25 | 2175493 ekm
ekm's picture

Arizona

Thx for commenting.

In theory it looks like it's going to work. However, I recommend you go and live in Europe for at least 2 years. You might change your opinion.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:19 | 2174226 oldman
oldman's picture

Hey ima,

They sure as hell will never let the US in the EU after this last twenty years of greater irresponsibility than Greece.

They did the due diligence but Goldman(american outfit, no?) led their Greek politician partners to a real PAYDAY

end of story                      om

goldan did the same here, btw

glass houses, bitchez

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