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Germany Throws Ball Back In Greece's Court As Schauble Says Deal Insufficient

Tyler Durden's picture


As we predicted, Germany is a no go. The AP reports:

  • German FinMin: Greek deal on spending cuts appears to not yet fulfill bailout conditions

And now ball is back in the Greek court where politicians are starting to drop like flies on the "merely insufficient" deal.


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Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:51 | 2142200 SDRII
SDRII's picture

meanwhile more porn scandels

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:05 | 2142289 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Here's a paradox -


The only deal that the Germans will do is a deal  that Greece won't do; one that let's German Politicians remotely attempt to save face with angry (with that anger growing with velocity and ferocity) voters at home, who will probably vote out a record number of Germany incumbent politicians since post WW-II, opting to bring in those legislators opposed to the Eurozone.

And the only deal that Greece will do is one that falls short of that outlined above, for many of the same reasons.


That said, a deal will get done. But it won't be a true deal, as it will be expected to fail by every measure, and by both sides, before the papers are signed.

And you can extend this exact same scenario, in terms of political and economic dynamics, to all the bailouts of the PIIGS that follow.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:21 | 2142408 Gene Parmesan
Gene Parmesan's picture

I think what we're seeing are the convulsive death throes of Greece as a member of the EU. The EU has to cut them loose. Any plan that has them staying in and getting a break will be demanded by the rest of the problem nations.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:16 | 2142755 redpill
redpill's picture

the BBC article on it


German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said the Greek plan was "not at a stage where it can be signed off".

The Greek government brokered a deal after days of negotiations between the parties in its fragile coalition.

Few details of the plan have been released, but unions have already called a 48-hour strike in protest.

Luxembourg's Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker, head of the so-called eurogroup of finance ministers, said he doubted whether the Greek plan was ready for approval.

"I do not have reasons to believe that there will be a definitive deal this evening," he told reporters as he arrived for the Brussels meeting.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:26 | 2142439 stocktivity
stocktivity's picture

Rally on....nothing makes sense anymore with the markets.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:09 | 2142719 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Schaeuble just doesn't want to be screwd anymore and besides, their "deal" has to pass through Greek parliament. Chances are slim it will....

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:15 | 2142752 Mountainview
Mountainview's picture

He knows about the scheduled bond redemption of the 20th of March. Default is unavoidable at that date... so why wait if the unavoidable is around the corner...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:23 | 2142793 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

Dow breaks 13000, DAX over 7000 and the Easter Bunny brings us all silver eggs in a gold basket.  As Tylers have often said Greece is doing itself in, the rest chase volatility.  Where is the hedge ?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 23:03 | 2144526 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

The hedge, my friend, is cold cash as of March 6th and then a little "Spring Break" and we all come back around the end of March to look at the smouldering ruins and pick up the pieces   ;-)

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 19:13 | 2143926 satan2liberals
satan2liberals's picture

What gives ?

How come the market didn't react to this at all?

 I heard it on a news break listening to Rush so it's not a buried story?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:49 | 2142550 pkea
pkea's picture

As I said yesterday there will be no deal. THIS IS IT. The greek game is over by the end of february. There is no agreement in germany. Nobody will print 2 trillion or give it to the EU, there is not enough to leverage. even if there will be attempts to simulate any deal, the markets are done. take your profits ladies and gentlemen.


I am loving the timeline development.

from bloomberg

European finance chiefs are set to defer endorsing a decision on a 130 billion-euro ($173 billion) rescue for Greece

“I don’t think we will have a definitive and final decision tonight,” Luxembourg Finance Minister Jean-Claude Juncker, chairman of the group of euro-area finance chiefs, said as he arrived for an emergency meeting of the group in Brussels.| Their next scheduled session is Feb. 20.

All dates are disclosed. from juncker himself, what else  does anyone want to know?



Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:08 | 2142714 battle axe
battle axe's picture

Does any European politician ever tell the truth? Wait why am I even asking that question.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:53 | 2142930 Q.E.easy
Q.E.easy's picture

Does any politician ever tell the truth?


There, fixed it for ya.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 21:38 | 2144334 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

They can't do it (Greece) because they know their own populace won't go for it at all.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 01:26 | 2144849 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

The biscuit wheels are coming off the gravy train, throwing all the riders off/out.  Will shots of Ouzo take away the pain?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:55 | 2142632 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

This is delicious...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:52 | 2142203 duo
duo's picture

I guess a 20% pension and wage cut isn't enough.  Total destruction of the Greek economy is the goal.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142232 gojam
gojam's picture

Total subordination. The Germans want the Greeks to invite them in this time.

Merkel is the German Dominatrix (if that image doesn't put you off your food)

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:49 | 2142591 walküre
walküre's picture

Complete and utter bullshit.

Do you honestly think that Greeks would pay higher taxes to support Germany if the shoe was on the other foot?

Hello? Greeks paying taxes???? Haha. Fight your own fight with the bankers. We did and we lost. It cost us our nationhood.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:57 | 2142250 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

that has been my thought all along considering odious debt. If the greek people overthrow the government, the debt goes away. I don't think it would be considered a credit event thus saving the banks from derivative destruction.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:29 | 2142465 duo
duo's picture

The Greek economy has already shrunk 20%.  Continued austerity will shrink the economy in a nonlinear fashion until collapse.  I thought the era of colonialism had ended.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:39 | 2142537 Flounder
Flounder's picture

Not so fast.  This weather report from Protothema is foggy. (translated w/google)

Heavy climate for Greece in Brussels
They challenge the lenders 'agreement' of heads!

The climate that tried to create by Thursday morning the Germans is that the current Eurogroup will not decide on the Greek loan. In fact, as revealed in, the Finance Minister faces a climate of suspicion for the agreement of leaders.
Encoding, the main points of the ongoing consultation between Evangelos Venizelos and the sixteen bonds from other countries of the eurozone, we can note the following:
1. In Brussels, the climate in Greece is heavy
2. They question our lenders that no real agreement between the Greek parties
3. They vague commitments and "weak"
4. In the working group expressed concerns that preceded even the overthrow of the agreement on exchange of old bonds with new Greek government (the PSI)
5. Tough stance keeps asking Berlin substantive and written commitments from the Greek political leadership
6. Expressing concern about the attitude of Antonis Samaras noting that he is before the polls and therefore will be required to implement the agreement.
7. The members of the Greek delegation besieged by members of the other countries participating in the Eurogroup, who ask them: if there is an agreement, what exactly is this agreement we can not guarantee that it will pass the House.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:51 | 2142606 walküre
walküre's picture

20% reduction accross the board and the Greek government dreaming about a return to growth in 2013.

That's bull.

The game is over. The socialist party is over for Greece. Soon others will follow, including Germany! Socialism is only possible as long as the bankers play along and can earn fees.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:52 | 2142206 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Germany will not accept the deal unless Greece licks the boots.

Germany is heavily into BDSM.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:53 | 2142216 dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

And now itz time to danz...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:54 | 2142226 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

It's not Germany, creditmoney is by design sadomasochism.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142238 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Same with the bondage and dominance.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:04 | 2142296 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I remember Mexico. And Brazil. And Argentina, oh, so many times Argentina.

nothing new under the sun

though some thought this can only happen to "3rd world countries"

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:12 | 2142343 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Yeah but were Mexico, Brazil and Argentina taken over by another country? No.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:17 | 2142384 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

yeah, you are right, I have to put on my uniform and go to Greece tomorrow and hang some dissidents... wait a moment!

what are you talking about? who is taking over Greece? you?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:38 | 2142530 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Germany wants total control of the Greek economy along with ``we must pay foreign debt first`` in their constitution. It's foreign domination. Greece would become the slaves of the banksters. People would see this as ``slaves to Germany``. No people who respect themselves would agree to that.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:53 | 2142626 walküre
walküre's picture

They can always say NO to the deal and the money. You think Germany really has an interest to remotely manage the books of Greece or any other country for that matter? Makes no sense whatsoever. So please, Greece say NO and leave us alone!


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:13 | 2142356 macaes4
macaes4's picture


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:18 | 2142386 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

You must be kidding. Mexico is basically in civil war. 42 000 dead in the last 5 years.

Then Argentina and Brazil got atrocious poverty rates and big big big ghettos.

Greece, right now, is way better off.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:47 | 2142587 GCT
GCT's picture

This is all about making it as painful as possible.  Greece is the experiment in my eyes.  Already Ireland is asking for the same deal.  The EU cannot continue to have soverign countries go bankrupt (even though most readers here aready know they are bankrupt).  This is going to be as nasty as they can make it to keep the other EU countries from asking for the same thing.  This is the only way they can keep this train running.

If Greece gets off easy the other countries will follow suit.  I think this may backfire on them and other countries after seeing all the pain coming to Greece may just tell the EU goodbye and pull an Iceland.  But you never know with all the politicians selling their people basically into debt slavery.  Yes Greece has been on easy street with the EU's money and needs to just default. Greek politicians will not allow this to happen.  If the populice rises up and overthrows the governement the default will still be a defult.  Does not matter who is in charge.

The EU is making an example of Greece for the other countries waiting in the wing to see what will happen to them if they do not tow the line and bail out the banks and nothing more.  Never let a crisis go to waste.  The other countries are watching this closely before they play their hands.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:30 | 2142817 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

GCT -"if Greece gets off easy..."  Greece si agreeing now to a slow death, indebted and emasculated.  Is that a deal for Ireland and the others ?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:28 | 2143095 dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

Greece is agreeing to eat crow -- no hard promises. This is a pissing contest where the creditors want to reset the pecking order -- "the chattle are getting a little too uppity with this illusion that they have a say in matters." Greece has already renegged twice on "agreements", what's one more? Right up there with check is in the mail, I'll call you in the morning and of course I love you baby. There are no contracts in the 21st century - especially at the sovereign level.

The only way these agreements get enforced at this point is by ground troops and I really don't see that happening -- does anyone really think this? The intellectuals in Europe will defend their 4th Reich ad infinitum otherwise they would be out of jobs themselves.

Agree to the deal, get your tranche and hit replay on the default drama.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:56 | 2143464 smiler03
smiler03's picture

@ GCT  -"Greece may just tell the EU goodbye and pull an Iceland."


When will you illiterate morons stop pushing this bullshit about Iceland? Iceland has a debt to GDP ratio of 90%+ and runs a budget deficit..

Iceland NEVER defaulted on a single króna of SOVEREIGN DEBT. 

Iceland did not bail out their banks, that is all. Learn something and get it into your thick head that Iceland is an irrelevant case to quote.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 19:47 | 2144016 GCT
GCT's picture

Smiler thanks for enlightening me.  I did read the link and thank you.  I made a mistake.  One of the reasons I come here is to learn.  I still believe they are making an example out of Greece.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 20:23 | 2144122 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Brazil, Argentina & Mexico debt crises didn't take place against a backdrop where central banks had the galactically ginormous balance sheets they do now, where the global banking/financial sector wasn't on a central bank life support line, and where  credit derivative risk (aka weapons of financial mass destruction) of some 800 trillion USD notional wasn't just 'floating out there' in the ether.

On top of that, when Brazil, Argentina & Mexico underwent their sovereign debt problems, their respective percentages of global GDP were proverbial grains of sand on the global economy beach.

This is so far different than the past debt crises sustained by Brazil, Argentina & Mexico that it's not only not in the same solar system, but it's not even in the same galaxy.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:53 | 2142615 GenX Investor
GenX Investor's picture

Ja...Das Boot

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:52 | 2142207 maxmad
maxmad's picture

Ach WAS!  bitchez!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:52 | 2142211 bdc63
bdc63's picture

Imagine my utter total shock ... I did NOT see this coming ...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:53 | 2142218 maxmad
maxmad's picture

Is it March already?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:06 | 2142310 DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

and it was all going so well up to this point :(

How could it all go wrong like this? So suddenly and without warning...

You can't blame the people in charge - no-one could have seen this coming.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:53 | 2142214 TahoeBilly2012
TahoeBilly2012's picture

Blood from olives?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:53 | 2142215 Marge N. Callz
Marge N. Callz's picture

This is bullish no doubt. Just as CNBC spins the labor minister resigning as good news. Afterall when you have no labor force who needs a labor minister?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:53 | 2142217 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142243 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

lizzy, I know that you are a bigshot at ZH and I do like your last post, but do you really think this is funny? seriously, I don't get your humour...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:58 | 2142255 gojam
gojam's picture

I agree Ghordius.

Needless bad taste IMO.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:00 | 2142280 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

She's Canadian; she can do no wrong.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:17 | 2142383 unrulian
unrulian's picture

I'm canadian...we can do wrong


used british subs

33 billion in US dollar reserves

long gun registry


Bill Shatner



Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:40 | 2142538 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

Lorne Greene

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:16 | 2142758 mirac
mirac's picture

HEY! Leave Lorne Greene out of it...he was tres cool man...and a helluva

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:19 | 2143050 taraxias
taraxias's picture

@ lizzy

Top post of the week.

The irony is lost to a lot on here apparently given the number of red arrows but your post is right on the money.

@ the pseudo "it's in bad taste" posters

Give your fucking head a shake. What's taking place today is way worse than the hollocaust.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:00 | 2143451 gojam
gojam's picture

"What's taking place today is way worse than the hollocaust"

Hi, Pseudo here. What fucking stupid thing to write.


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:19 | 2143047 stewie
stewie's picture

Avro Arrow

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 16:45 | 2143425 unrulian
unrulian's picture

Jim Carey


Shania Twain

Celine Dion

ryan reynolds

an endless parade of bad actors and pop music


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:01 | 2142286 B-rock
B-rock's picture

How about we don't censor a single fucking thing here!  Too bad for YOU.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:03 | 2142293 gojam
gojam's picture

Who said anything about censorship ?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:09 | 2142322 B-rock
B-rock's picture

Or admonishment. Lily livers.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:09 | 2142332 gojam
gojam's picture

Haven't you just admonished me ?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:04 | 2142297 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

It was MOST DEFINATELY not meant to be funny.

It was meant to portray the way Germany is trying to enslave a nation so their banks don't have to suffer the consequences of bad decision making.

Germany is in charge of Europe again for the 3rd time in 100 years. This time is NOT different. The scapegoating has begun. Last time it was the jews. This time it is the greeks, then the portuguese, then the Spaniards. 

It is most definately not funny.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:13 | 2142329 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

"It was meant to portray the way Germany is trying to enslave a nation so their banks don't have to suffer the consequences of bad decision making."

Lizzy, why scapegoat Germany when banks world-wide are equally culpable?

In this instance the connections are cross-border, in others internal. I don't see this issue as being exclusive to any one nation or culture.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:13 | 2142337 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Germany is trying to enslave a nation" ???

and where did you get this from? from your media? from sources in Germany? have you ever been in Germany? do you speak German? do you know any German resident (perhaps feeding you the secret plans of world domination?)

Do you really think that the German People or the German Government are hellbent in this domination thing? Or are you just extrapolating from a hundred year of Commonwealth propaganda? I do see scapegoating in action, and the scapegoats look quite German to me.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:23 | 2142414 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'Do you really think that the German People or the German Government are hellbent in this domination thing?'

The answer is no but Siemens is. Deutsche Telekom takeover in Greece is another example. Corporate takeover, profit knows no mercy and speaks the universal language. A rise in nationalism wouldn't at all have to turn ugly as in other instances if people understand that it isn't a national thing anymore.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:35 | 2142481 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

there were many disgusting deals I have followed between Germany, Italy and Greece (the frigates and subs that were sold in the 20th pop up in my mind). but here we are talking about sovereigns, not corporate business - which is by the way in the scope of a Common Market. If a Canadian company makes an hostile takeover of a British company or the other way round nobody would make a big fuss about it...

No, Lizzy seems to think in a different dimension and I would like to understand it - I always assume that someone that hangs out here is at least somehow interested in the truth

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:40 | 2142539 SMG
SMG's picture

Lizzy is one of the better posters out there, unlike you troll.  None of us on here are perfect posters.   Get off her case and more on.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:49 | 2142588 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

She just spouts the jew supremacist tripe about Germany. She says Germany was in charge of Europe three times in the last hundred years? The jews were "scapegoats"?-the jews doublecrossed Germany twice in WWI, once during the war and again at the Versailles Treaty, the jews were hardly scapegoats.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:52 | 2142612 SMG
SMG's picture

It's handy to have several accounts on here right troll?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:54 | 2142628 V in PA
V in PA's picture

I'm getting popcorn and hitting refresh every 10 seconds. This looks like it will be a good one!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:00 | 2142678 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

Nope, one account. And why are you changing the subject?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:00 | 2142669 walküre
walküre's picture

Yes, yes, yes. It wasn't Germany's money that supported the rise of nazism.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:55 | 2142630 falak pema
falak pema's picture

dolls n trolls, you need to be tolerant. Words, words, words, can be lies and worse. So achtung. Free speech and free screech don't mean the same thingie. 

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:01 | 2142681 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

so "right or wrong, my country/my better poster?"

and why troll?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:08 | 2142700 gojam
gojam's picture

"and why troll?

You had the temerity to disagree with a 'contributer'.

 And these sheep go on about censorship. Beggars belief.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:08 | 2142704 V in PA
V in PA's picture

And he called you a 'more on'. ;)

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:00 | 2142680 lizzy36
lizzy36's picture

Germany is not interested in world domination only EU domination.

In the current climate, Mrs Merkel's blueprint for the future of the 27-member
EU - and the 17-member eurozone - may well be the only one that matters

The Greek deal has 19 cents of every bailout dollar going to Greece the rest is to pay out creditors. The is mostly a transfer of bailout dollars to the banks.

Homelessness in Greece has increased by 25% in 2 years. And still there are demands for more. Another 150,000 civil servants to be fired (equivalent of 5 million in the US).Where are the demands for this austerity coming from? Who is creating the blueprint for the future of the EU? 

I am not in anyway saying that German people are hell bent on domination. But i do know that they (like many many people owned by corporates) do not speak up, the roll with the program. Especially when they are the main beneficiaries of the program.

As for my sources in Germany only have ones that are immigrants to Cananda. All still have family in Germany. I try and talk to at least one of them about this sitaution weekly because i am that curious to hear what people on the ground are saying.They range in age from 25-80. All say the same thing. Germany is de facto in charge of Europe again. None of them are confident in the outcome. 

I am not particularly susceptible to propaganda. As for 100 years of Commonwealth propoganda, i have no clue what you are referring to. I do know that i am the jewish grandchild of a man who had 9 brothers and 35 cousins in Radom, Poland. He came to Canada, they all got "ENSLAVED" at the Lodz Ghetto and then got a free train ride to the Chelmno extermination camp.

My dear, MY moral compass insists that I question where the German Blueprint will lead the EU, yours apparently is doubting that such a blueprint exists and if is does, surely it is not so bad, afterall enslavement isn't a gateway to something more? 

Now explain to me how Germany is the Scapegoat again?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:12 | 2142739 The Reich
The Reich's picture

1,350,000 employees (750,000 civil servants + 600,000 public workers)  of an inflated apparatus of state in Greece cause/consume 50% of the annual national expenditures.


Demanding to reduce it by 11,1% in 4 years to get closer a balanced budget looks more than moderate to me. btw 15,000 workers is less than they should have done already in 2011 according to the first recovery package scheme.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:21 | 2143059 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

Greece indebted itself. They have no one to blame but themselves, and their politicians. Greece should should rebuke the debt as odius.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:08 | 2142965 kaiten
kaiten's picture

Germany is de facto in charge of Europe again.

Well, then it will be for the first time in the history of mankind, when those in charge pay the pensions of those "enslaved".

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:23 | 2143070 taraxias
taraxias's picture

@ lizzy

I must admit I am a big fun of your posts especially you are really taking the children to school.

@ everyone else

Grow up for fuck sakes, she's right on the money.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 01:41 | 2144863 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

You're ASSUMING that the German Govt is in charge of the banks/negotiations.  Check your premises.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 04:35 | 2144963 PY-129-20
PY-129-20's picture

Since you seem to be so concerned about the Greek citizen, I suppose that you will do everything for the Greece.

Please, write a letter to your Canadian government and please promote your idea to your fellow Canadian citizens - maybe you want to propose to introduce a new tax in Canada - to help the poor Greek people and to let them retire with 55 and so forth.

See, we have poor people in Germany. There are people here that work for 1 Euro per hour. There are old people that live with 600 Euro per month or sometimes even less.

You may have gotten the wrong idea about my country. There are no unicorns shitting gold coins here. I am sorry. And Germany is already heavily indebted.

I understand your feelings about Germans if you have such a connection. And I understand the feelings of Greek citizens that are afraid to lose their sovereignty. With such a history it is no wonder. That's why I can also understand Polish people. They have every right to mistrust Germans or Russians. I do not want German domination of Greece or any other country in the world. And that's what the majority of Germans think about that. But we also do not want to hand out our money for nothing. And we have done this for the last 50 years with subventions to other countries (and of course other nations contributed too).

Comparing this German generation with the generation of 1933 is ridiculous. You do not seem to understand what happened since then. But let me remind you that my nation was on the brink of total destruction. Our cities were in ruins, millions of our people were dead, the nation was divided into three parts (GDR, FRG, Sarre) and people were lining up to get some food, anything. The kids had no shoes. Nothing. The world hated us for the crimes our men had commited in the name of Adolf Hitler. And you know what? We deserved it. It was a hard lesson but a good one. I do not say that we were perfect with dealing with our past. But we tried. Every kid here was raised hearing everything about the Nazis, about the German guilt.

Do you even have the slightest idea how difficult it was to grow as one nation again? German people are no robots. It was difficult. People were and are hating each other for being West or East. I was in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern to visit a friend and I was introduced to a group of East Germans that were singing old Russian songs and they hated the fact that I was from the West. And I had seen the opposite here - West German kids badmouthing a pupil because he was from East Germany (and ridiculing him for being poor).

If there is one thing we Germans do not want to do ever again - it has to do with war and world domination stuff. And that's good. I am glad that we lost that war. I would have hated it to live under such a regime. Many Germans think like that. Even those that were kids at the time.

About the EU: How many of those main actors are actually German? Barroso? Van Rompuy? Ashton? Draghi? They do not sound German to me. Oettinger and Schultz are the only two guys I know there.

Yes, the German influence has increased and now everyone is panicking. Yes, we didn't sell our whole manufacturing. Yes, we have some evil banks here. But you know what? We Germans are not used to this role and it is uncomfortable. We relied on the French to solve everything. But they've fallen behind as you know (unfortunately, I love the French (and not because of those surrender jokes). So what do you recommend us to do? To pay and pay and pay? As we have done for the half of the last century?

It's not so easy I am afraid.

Fri, 02/10/2012 - 08:12 | 2145051 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

lizzy, the above is an excellent example of a contemporary German Point of View.


Note the: "We Germans are not used to this role and it is uncomfortable. We relied on the French to solve everything." Though he forgot to mention the role of the Italians and the BeNeLux countries in shaping Europe (i.e. the "Blueprint for Europe").


If you don't mind I shift some of the answers to your questions to this part of ZH, where we have found more common ground

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 18:38 | 2143814 Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

Angie Merkel: Guten Morgen, how is your Organ ?

David Cameron: Ha Ha Ha...Bull-Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhit !

Angie Merkel: Gesundheit !

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:12 | 2142349 OttoMBMP
OttoMBMP's picture

No, it is not funny. It is insane.

Who do you think you are?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:41 | 2142547 DOT
DOT's picture

Not funny.


History and its lessons will not go away.  Get past the emotion.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:45 | 2142570 V in PA
V in PA's picture

"...and we have to change our history." - Michelle Obama

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:24 | 2142421 SMG
SMG's picture

While they are trying to blame Germany for this, just remember the powers at play here, the global Illuminati new world order,  think they are above nations.   They control several countries including the US and Germany and use them as scapegoats when appropriate. 

The goal here is to smash all countries eventually including the USA and Germany and force them to submit to a new global luciferian empire.

Remember it is NOT Germany vs. Greece, or the US vs. China or Iran,  that is what they want, so they can laugh at us as we fight amongst ourselves.

It is Illuminati Overlords vs the common people.  It's Slavery vs. True Freedom. That is the true battle.



Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:24 | 2142427 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

BTW, I don't know about your moral compass, but "trying to enslave a nation" is in my catalogue still a minor sin compared to genocidally obliterate millions out of a minority (i.e. what the photograph of the concentration camp suggests).

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:17 | 2142764 agent default
agent default's picture

Nice to see enslavement of nations is a minor affair by your book.  BTW is there still a racial theory attached to that or is it pure business nowadays?  Let me guess, you are a German right?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:21 | 2143568 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Read again - mino in comparison, the math sign is: <

In Continental Europe nowadays the race angle is very, very, very minor vs the English speaking countries. A question like yours is rare here. We had a war, we All lost, in different degrees, and All regret the causes. And some of them were racial.

Does morality change when it's only business?

No German Citizen though - would it matter? I am European. I am NOT a minority here, only the media you consume presents it so. My countrymen are the 70% of Greeks that want to keep the EUR, for example, TOO.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:41 | 2143626 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Wait a moment, "enslavement of nations"?

We are in Afghanistan. Are we what? Liberating it? Encircling Iran? Laying pipelines? Preventing Chinese pipelines? Keeping an eye on the Talibans? And another on Pakistan? Opening a common border with China?

You seriously think in terms of German Gunships blocking Piraeus?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:58 | 2142650 walküre
walküre's picture

Believe you me, Germany has absolutely NO FUCKING interest in controlling Greece or any other country!

They took the money, they can't repay the loans. They screwed up. Their war, not ours.

Now we're in the spotlight because we don't supply them with more cash that they can never repay?

Unfortunately in Euro Diplomacy we're not allowed to simply walk away from the table and say NO.

The banks have us by the balls like they own US banks as well. You're in Canada, eh? Better pray that the Canadian overlords are more merciful when its time to collect. Canada's banks OWN the country. Canada's banks are owned by a handful of families that run all affairs in Canada whether you like it or not. Thank the Queen for that!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:56 | 2143208 Mike North
Mike North's picture

as a Canadian i could not agree more. her picture is not on the money for old times sake. we might fall last but it will be a long way down. everyone loves the banks while they spend the loans, everyone hate the banks when the bills come due.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:44 | 2143636 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

I agree with you.

Have you noticed no one talks about Britain?  Everyone wants to print with the British banking system getting a wee piece of that administrative overhead that makes the world go round.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 19:15 | 2143934 Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

Angie, Angie, may I bugger you please for a euro bail-out ?

I am sorry Dave, I can not do that.

see you later Dave,

much later...


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:45 | 2143158 Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

Cool your jets Lizzy - I think most of us got that right away - but when you put up such strong, archetypal images - you are gonna invoke gut reactions - visceral reactions - not reasoned ones. You share a *leetle* bit of this - and it is the German banks - I strongly suggest that most of the German people just want to shed Greece as much as the Greece people just want to get the fuck out from under the EZ banks  (actually, French banks have more Greek debt than German).


Strong images get strong reactions - be of a little more care next time Lizzy - or not - this IS the Fight Club... ;-)


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:58 | 2143686 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I objected to the connection between Extermination Camps, the current events and the theory that Germany has an OWN nefarious plan. btw that "plan" is OLD, is originally Italian/French and is only news in the New World. The EU and the EZ are Clubs. Of GentlePeoples, according to the club rules. Liberty to join, Freedom to leave.

Now I object a bit to your comment of answers not being reasoned, though I agree with you with one correction: it's Banks (take the country label away, it's systems).

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:21 | 2142400 V in PA
V in PA's picture

Okay, call me stupid, but what is that a picture of?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:33 | 2142484 gojam
gojam's picture

lol, very good.  :-D

Best put down ever.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:34 | 2142496 centerline
centerline's picture

Someone did that me once. I was waiting for a chance to use it! All in the name of fun of course.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:39 | 2142533 gojam
gojam's picture

Yeh, No such thing as a stupid question and all that but Google is your friend.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:17 | 2143555 smiler03
smiler03's picture

@ V in PA



Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:34 | 2142499 V in PA
V in PA's picture

Thanks. Using lmgtfy gets you the +1. :)

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:52 | 2143194 Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

Beautiful answer! Many thumbs up!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 15:23 | 2143073 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture



Just doing as you asked.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:59 | 2142571 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Is she siliconed to that extent? Big shot? My funny bone itches.


Arbeit bites back; for those who work in silly silence of kinder, küche, Kirche worship. But that gate is not the gate of German nation but of a hateful regime...Nuance...let he who be naked and not siliconed throw the first stone... and charden song (french group) . 

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:00 | 2142279 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Arbeit (work) meant serious hard work to the older generations of Germans (1870 to 1945).

The old Germans had a super strong work ethic.


Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:28 | 2142372 Arthur
Arthur's picture

Yes, they worked themselves to death.  ....Or at least those they felt were inferior.

No doubt some still think that way but I think most in Germany do not want to dominate the world.  The picture is a tad harsh, don't you think?

I think thay are just pissed at being taken advantage of by the Greeks and other.  Not that Germany did not benefit too.  More Porsche Turbo Cayennes  were sold in Greece than any were else.  Some Germany business did well but at the cost of German taxpayer.  i would be bitching too.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:54 | 2142222 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

cicking the can in the best soccer tradition!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:57 | 2142252 maxmad
maxmad's picture

Its not the cans they're running out of, its roads!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:02 | 2142276 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

nah, there is this man dressed in black that signals when the can has to be kicked in the other direction

                          and finally, there is Draghi's "wall of money" to stop the can

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:19 | 2142392 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

There's a man going round taking names..  Johnny Cash

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:54 | 2142228 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Germany knows if they bail out Greece, they bail out Portugal/Ireland/Spain/Italy, so they kick the can.  Greece knows it can not default without causing a major financial panic, and they don't want to be blamed for that, so they kick the can.

Back and forth, back and forth, as long as they can.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:59 | 2142273 Cole Younger
Cole Younger's picture

Odiuos debt is the only option to avoid both.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:02 | 2142287 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

So who rolls the $16 billion of Greek debt on March 20th?  The IMF?  The ECB?  Someone will have to, and it won't be China.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:20 | 2142396 dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture

I think it's going to be the ECB. Would make sense since the Fed/ECB swapfest is out of control at this point. It's a done deal -- what's one more swap between friends. Again, it's all theater at this point.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:55 | 2142237 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Within hours...and maybe minutes...there will be an "agreement" that the NASDAQ top is in.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142244 agent default
agent default's picture

I think Germany has had it.  They are trying to push Greece into defaulting, they don't want to pull the trigger them selves though.  So they are just pushing Greek politicians more and more hopping to provoke an enough is enough reaction from them.  What they didn't expect was how spineless these guys are.  The Germans must be staring at each other dumbfounded with every concession Greece is making.  I bet the Germans are laughing their heads off behind closed doors with these assclowns.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:57 | 2142256 maxmad
maxmad's picture

Laughing and printing DoucheMarks!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 17:47 | 2143649 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

The Greeks aren't making any concessions.  Their economy is going underground.

Nobody is going to pay taxes...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142245 PicassoInActions
PicassoInActions's picture

ok, now we need more rumors

and euro is still up.

they have an interesting game plan.

They all know their remarks are moving market one way or another, so i guess they have a bigger agenda.


And may be some1 can explain, why would not MSM outlets will produce rumors them self?

Let's say FT reports deal is done - who can verify that? since most sources are annonymous.

In other words if FT decide to trade them self they can easily come up with rumor on their own.


All those bastards and fagets who sign NDS agreement and leaking info are criminals. are there any law to procecute those morons?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:56 | 2142247 Martial
Martial's picture




Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:58 | 2142263 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I am Jack's lack of surprise.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 12:58 | 2142257 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

They should do a deal without Germany.

Whoever wants to pay for Greece can... France... France... France? Germany isn't forced to pay.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:05 | 2142302 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

If my memory is correct it is the UK that owns the majority of the Greek debt.  Thus why Germany said they should join the EU.  Germany is calling the UKs bluff to join because the UK can't have Greek default or its banks are ruined, but the UK is banking on the EU bailing out Greece to save its monetary unit, the euro.  Interesting war we have going on here.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:10 | 2142308 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Just looked up the numbers again... it's France and Germany that are most exposed... after Greece itself, of course. The UK has almost no exposure.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:11 | 2142342 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

The UK would lose out, the EU would lose out, but Germany doesn't want to go it alone, and the UK thinks Germany will agree to one of the bailouts.

This is why Cameron got the cold shoulder; Sarkozy is caught in the middle of Europe's economic WWIII, and he is pissed.  Merkle bluffs, and bluffs again, and the UK just sits there and calls her down.

I have looked for Tyler's posts on who owns each others debt, but haven't found them.  They were cool graphs that looked like spiderwebs.  If anyone has a link as to who owns the Greek debt, it would be appreciated, because my thesis is going by memory.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:36 | 2142505 kanenas
kanenas's picture

Is this what you were looking for?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:16 | 2142741 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Yes!  Thank you.

And it's France.  Well now, how about that.  No wonder Sarkozy and Merkle do so much politicking about Greece.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:02 | 2142684 walküre
walküre's picture

haha, good one!

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:01 | 2142281 kaiten
kaiten's picture

That´s simple. Germany wants Greece out.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:05 | 2142307 Elwood P Suggins
Elwood P Suggins's picture

The negotiations will continue until morale improves.


Old Schanublewobble must have taken a hard look at the German opinion polls.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:07 | 2142311 vote_libertaria...
vote_libertarian_party's picture

So that explains the mini market pop just now.

Uncontrolled financial collapse back on the table = buy buy buy

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:12 | 2142345 SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

See that too.  Ridiculous.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:13 | 2142358 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

I think the HFT machines are confused by the trillions of Milky Way wrappers that Draghi posted as collateral for bank credit.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:08 | 2142315 CvlDobd
CvlDobd's picture

The baffle them with bullshit plan is working on me. I consider myself an intelligent person but I have no fucking idea what is going on these days.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:08 | 2142317 The trend is yo...
The trend is your friend's picture

This is like a LOOONG tennis match between Federer and Nadal

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:08 | 2142318 Habyarimana
Habyarimana's picture

Do we all have to learn german ? Niemals Frau Merkel und bitte ohne Sahne !

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:19 | 2142393 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

I doubt the Greek government is much worried about what the rest of the EU thinks at this point. They know that the EU can't afford a default or their exit from the EU. So it's down to how much they can extort from Germany for the privilege of maintaining the illusion of solidarity.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:20 | 2142397 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

If Germany wants Greece out, they should tell Greece publicly to go talk to France, the IMF, the UK, the US or China if they want money. That Germany has had enough.

But nooooooooooooo Merkel doesn't have enough guts to say that...

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:14 | 2142746 walküre
walküre's picture

US Congress didn't have the balls to say NO to the bank bailout when it came due.

We're all in this together. The global banking cabal has all of us trembling in fear under their feet!

When is it enough? When can we regain our freedom from these shysters?

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:26 | 2142443 Rathmullan
Rathmullan's picture

15,000 public sector job cuts in 2012 is a mere start. The troika has demanded another 135,000 through 2015 (or an average of 45,000 each year in 2013 through 2015) Think Greece is up for that?. The total, (150,000) is equivalent to 4.5 million public sector job cuts in the U.S. - which, of course, we will have to eventually get around to.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 14:09 | 2142722 The Reich
The Reich's picture

1,350,000 employees (750,000 civil servants + 600,000 public workers)  of an inflated apparatus of state in Greece cause/consume 50% of the annual national expenditures.


Demanding to reduce it by 11,1% in 4 years to get closer a balanced budget looks more than moderate to me. btw 15,000 workers is less than they should have done already in 2011 according to the first recovery package scheme.

Thu, 02/09/2012 - 13:31 | 2142477 tpbeta2
tpbeta2's picture

Germany knows Greece is going to take the money ...and then default. So they want it to collapse now.

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