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Global Car-Maker Channel Stuffing Conspiracy 'Theory' Now Conspiracy 'Fact'

Tyler Durden's picture


From HFT to LIBOR manipulation and European bond legal-covenants, and now Auto-manufacturer channel-stuffing; all conspiracy 'theories' proved conspiracy 'facts' - as Gabby Douglas might say "Nailed It!" We have been vociferously pointing out the incredible levels of channel-stuffing occurring at GM in the US, then China, and most recently into Europe (must read here) and now the WSJ confirms the latter; as sales of BMW and Mercedes, helped by heavy discounts and contingencies to dealers, are being questioned.  Kenn Sparks, a BMW spokesman, said its July sales total includes vehicles that were purchased by its dealers for use as what are known as "demos"— cars used on lots for test drives. He declined to say how many reported sales were demos, saying BMW doesn't release the figure. "These vehicles may stay on the lot because they are used as demo models," he said. BMW's incentives appeared to help propel the car maker to a 1,900-vehicle lead over Mercedes-Benz (as surprisingly 7-Series sales tripled MoM, and 3-Series doubled).


Via WSJ:

It sold 1,696 of its 7 Series sedans in July, the highest monthly total so far this year, and triple the June total of 539. For the 3 Series coupe, which had demo discounts totaling $3,200, sales climbed to 2,555 cars, up from 1,222 in June and that vehicle's highest total for the year.


Dealers said they believe a few thousand BMW vehicles were sold as demos. The auto maker reported it sold 21,297 vehicles in July compared with 19,312 for Mercedes.


Fortunately there's no way to track it...

BMW's Mr. Sparks said BMW doesn't break out sales of demonstration vehicles.


Mr. Sparks said demo models should be clearly marked and sold as used cars. But managers who own or oversee more than a dozen BMW dealerships said they routinely offer the vehicles as new and that BMW's U.S. sales unit approves of the practice.


But dealers feel forced...

Several managers at BMW dealerships said they had no customers lined up to buy or lease the demo cars, but reported them as sold to lock in the discounts. "If I don't take them, then I'll be at a disadvantage to my competitors," one dealer executive said.


and the GM debacle is not a new thing...

In the past, GM, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler would lease thousands of cars a month to rental-car companies for very little. They counted those vehicles as sold. Then after a few months, the car companies took the rental cars back and passed them on to dealers that sold them as used cars.


One well known case of sales inflation occurred in 1998, when GM's Cadillac brand and Ford's Lincoln division racing to claim the top spot in luxury-car sales. Cadillac was trailing but its sales suddenly surged in December and it took the crown. Months later an embarrassed GM acknowledged that the Cadillac unit had purchased vehicles itself from its dealers, boosting the reported total.

Though this just seems like a ridiculous unreality game of catch-up...

Last year, BMW edged out Mercedes as the top-selling U.S. luxury car. At the end of November, Mercedes was ahead of BMW for the year. When it came time to report December sales totals, each company balked for 24 hours, hoping to force the other to go first.


Finally, Mercedes disclosed that it had sold 25,701 cars in December, and 245,192 for the year. Shortly thereafter, BMW said it had sold 26,834 cars in the month, enough to push its full-year total to 247,907 and claim the luxury-car sales crown.


Mr. Sparks said he is unaware of any discounts that were aimed at driving demo sales last December.


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Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:01 | 2707636 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I just sit back and laugh at what some claim is "crazy talk" or "ludicrous tin foil," whether first mention here or elsewhere, especially after that which was previously alleged to be "crazy" is subsequently validated.

They Just Can't Stop It The(Games People Play) - The Spinners, bitchez


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:01 | 2707660 metastar
metastar's picture

When does Conspiracy 'Theory' become fact?

When the MSM says so???

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:13 | 2707692 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

In this context, when the sheep that trust in the MSM finally are instructed by that same MSM as to any degree of reality.

For those who don't like The Spinners:


If you don't like either group above (inlcuding me), I'm not sure who else has covered Games People Play or done a song of the same title. 


C'mon, Fugazi or Social

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:15 | 2707747 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:23 | 2707788 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture



"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win, bitchez."


--Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:29 | 2707830 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

bitchez n+1

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:14 | 2708057 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

The ladies love my channel stuffing!

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:30 | 2708112 Fluffybunny
Fluffybunny's picture

Auditors are crapping their pants over this though. Sheeeit, risk of material misstatements everywhere.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:36 | 2707872 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

In this case, channel stuffing is as old as the business, and anyone who knows jack knows that.

It also happens with a lot of other product, and has for a long time too.  How about looking at say, Cisco just before the .bust as just one other example?  There's nothing special about cars, any product that goes through disties has this go on.

Crap, this "tinfoil hat conspiricy revealed" crap is, well, crap.  This is total click-bait for the uninformed.

I've been reading articles in the various channels for gosh, probably since before Tyler ate solid food.

It's how the game is played...always, no news whatever here - sometimes it's worse than others, but it never goes away.

Anyone here ever hear about "floor planing" for retailers - another version of the same thing when misused, as it always is.


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:44 | 2707912 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

Too right. There was a book published in the sixties called "The Money Game" by "Adam Smith". In a chapter entitled "But what do the numbers mean" there was the example of houses reported as sold and as earnings income when the buyer put up a 0.1% down payment.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 14:58 | 2707638 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

demos are often cars driven by salesmen for awhile.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:23 | 2707774 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Fahrvergnugend for the dealers driving around their parking lots, not so much for the punked shareholders. Sell 'em if you got 'em!

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:01 | 2707643 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Monkey see (GM channel stuffing), monkey (BMW etc) do likewise.

""If I don't take them, then I'll be at a disadvantage to my competitors," one dealer executive said."

Can't stop dancing as long as everyone else remains on their feet. This is way better than the Cartoon Network.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 14:59 | 2707644 Cranios
Cranios's picture

Well what do you expect? GM is owned by labor unions and Obama the Great must be re-elected. Do you think Holder will allow GM to be prosecuted for this? NO WAY.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:07 | 2707704 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

Prosecuted in the Obozo/Holder Justice Department has been replaced with Prostituted.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 14:59 | 2707646 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

Today's Conspiracy Theory Is Tomorrow's News!

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:50 | 2707952 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

I have long opined that NFL players were secretly conspiring during huddles, and it may yet prove to be so. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:01 | 2707663 john milton
john milton's picture

ten stars for ZHedgers

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:05 | 2707668 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

Dealerships here are packed (some might say, "stuffed") with cars, SUVs, pickups, and so on...some are building 3-story garages for all their inventory. Can you imagine the whopping cost of that inventory plus storage ?!


I'm a Cheap Bastard and won't buy another car for 10 years. I don't care what the neighbors say.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:08 | 2707708 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

3-story garages for all their inventory .. you can call it shadow inventory.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:21 | 2707782 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

You now know why the builders were optomistic. hahahahahahahahah

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:34 | 2707860 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

Entire subdivisions of channel stuffing?  You nailed it. 

How long until they just prefab the houses and "sell" them into vast hangar-warehouses owned by affiliated but legally distinct distributor entities, thus presenting the illusion of sales.  Because if I move something to my left hand to my right hand, it "changes hands", right?

BTW - irony alert - local BMW offers from dealers all over my adspaces.  great deals but I don't go for the modern seperation between road and driver.  Give me a RWD and five speed getrag, no assists, and glass, oh baby, lots of glass. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:09 | 2707717 Mark Carney
Mark Carney's picture

they have a solution for that


GM Financing to the rescue, lol

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:23 | 2707799 Brother Sebastian
Brother Sebastian's picture

Mine last 20 or more years...what's wrong with  I prefer my bicycle.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:43 | 2707899 11b40
11b40's picture

Yes, I'm cheap, too, and when I do buy another vehicle it will be like the ones I have bought for the past 25 or so years.....used with 24-48K miles on it.

You really must be unconcerned with saving money, or really dumb and impulsive to buy a brand new car.  Maybe there are some other reasons, but I can't think of any that would apply to most folks.

Buy used and drive them into the ground.  Almost any car sold new today is good for 200K+ miles with just basic maintenence....and I have driven 30-40,000 miles/year since 1976.  All since early '80's have been Cadillacs and Buicks.  Hardly any problems, but change oil every 3K.

Not only that, but my company pays me @ $.52/mi. for the use of my vehicle.  If I drive 3K for the month, I give myself an expense check for $1560..... for a vehicle that has been paid for for years, and that I bought used for less than $15K.  Not only that, but the insurance rate goes down every year, as do the property taxes....but the mileage write-off just keeps on ticking.  Simple math.  Buy car for $15K.  Drive 30K business miles & car has bascially paid for itself.  Drive car another 100K miles = $50K paid to yourself in tax free cash flow.

Yes, you have gas, oild repairs, insurance, etc....but they are nominal relative to the write-off after a vehicle is paid off. 

I believe that more people are coming to realize that they can drive cars for much longer than the ones made in the 70's and early 80's, and that this has a continuing and growing effect on new car sales.


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 17:01 | 2708236 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Wrong advice for most people.

1.  You don't change the oil every 3K miles - it is more like 7.5K miles.  Jerry Brown is going to be coming after you.

2.  Buying a used car means you have bought other peoples problems?  How do you know the previous owners didn't just give up on a Lemon?  24K-48K mileage is when the Lemons are traded in.

3.  New car means zero maintenance other than oil.  You just take it to the shop and they fix it (without charge).  Used car means this money comes directly out of your pocket - unless the car is still under warranty which probably means it had previous problems.  Most comprehensive warranties end at 36K.

4.  I personally don't want a used car that someone else has pissed and shit in (why else would they have traded it in?)

5.  New car smell.

6.  I like to take responsibility for my own mistakes.  Buying a new car means the responsibility is on me to keep the car in top shape - I don't have to trust that the previous owner did the maintenance.

7.  I don't think the poster really understands the tax consequences of a used car.  I would argue that you would make more in depreciation.

I agree with the last paragraph - Cars in the 1960s and 1970s were made to be obsolute in five years. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:30 | 2708510 11b40
11b40's picture

Between lease give-backs, which are generally well maintained, and Car-Fax reports, you can find an abundance of excellent used cars.  This is espcecially true if you buy from the dealer, who has his own reputation on the line, and very often knows the car's history. 

Never had a lemon....except a 1974 Audi LS100.

My partner of 25 years used to trade every 50K and kept up with gas, oild, insurance, etc. to doe his expenses.

Then, he started leasing doing it the same way.  He finally saw the light and started doing it my way when he realized just how much cash flow could be added after the car ws paid for.  There are limits on depreciation, but not on mileage deductions.

But, to each his own.  For me, a car is not much of an emotional purchase....just another tool.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:43 | 2708542 Jeff Lebowski
Jeff Lebowski's picture

I agree, but with consideration of current pricing of used.

I went to buy a used car last year and the price of an identical vehicle, out of warranty, for approx 10-15% off price for new.

I have previously bought 24-48k used cars for precisely the previous rationale of depreciated value, however, cars are being priced to not make this the logical choice. I bought new.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 20:59 | 2708865 gruden
gruden's picture

Agreed.  Over 10 years ago when we had our 2nd child and we wanted something bigger to drive, I first looked at used mini-vans.  I soon found that all the used minivans out there were only 5-10% less than new ones.  I couldn't get the salesmen to budge - they were convinced they could get what they were asking for them.  It made no sense to buy a used car. 

The next car was a driving to work gas-efficient car.  The used cars I looked at were too close to new car price.  So I bought new.

A new car is a poor deal if you sell it at 50k miles or less.  If you plan to drive it into the ground then I think you get your money's worth these days.  For me it's worthwhile to have the car in the shop as little as possible, so I'm willing to spend a little more on the front end to get a reliable car and spend less on repairs later.  A new car is an even better deal if you can buy it outright or put a large percentage down.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:29 | 2708502 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

11 Bravo,


this is very good advice.  And, for more than 20 years, I have practiced what you have preached.  I buy high quality used cars with less than 20,000 miles and still under full warranty.  I pony up another $2,500 to the dealer at closing to get an extended warranty from the manufacturer for maximum time and mileage.  Once "out of warranty", I run the rigs until the wheels are about to fall off.  Then, donate to charity and buy a replacement rig for cash.  The key to success with this program is rigorous maintenance and repair, until such time that the rig no longer "repair-worthy".  I once drove a MB diesel for 17 years - the mechanics and engine were still good when I gave her away.  But, the cosmetics and body was shot.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:32 | 2708513 11b40
11b40's picture

Yep....that's the trick.  Luxury for less.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 21:54 | 2708532 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

One of the things I'm very confident about, based on my life experience, is that truly wealthy people (those who aren't basking in the glory of expensive shit they don't need bought with debt they can't repay) tend to drive relatively modest vehicles, and regardless as to whether they purchased them new or used, they maintain them, yet drive and keep them for a long, long time.

After all, the purchase, maintenance and use of a motor vehicle are all high expense items, and they relate to a rapidly depreciating asset, which is not exactly the kind of 'investment' that makes truly wealthy people truly wealthy in the first place.

Genuinely wealthy people only buy and maintain vehicles when they need to, and don't buy the types of vehicles the debt-enlaved do as a means of projecting status.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:19 | 2708641 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

I did exactly that for a few decades - buy a car someone sold in a panic because they thought that at 60-100k miles it was going to start shitting parts on the road.  Nope, things got better (mine were also mostly buicks and olds).  Cash for clunkers, plus the realization that nope, cars last a long time, shut down the one honest used car dealer I ever worked with for that, though.  Man, that was the best deal ever - I'd put 30k more on them, then sell them back to the same guy, add a couple k, and get a few years newer luxo-barge (some of which were surprisingly fast and good handling).

Then something else happened.  I became old, cranky, and impatient.  So I bought a new car.

I love it.  I don't care that it might not have been the greatest deal monetarily.  I just know I don't have to worry with a bumper to bumper 8 yr, 100k warranty - and I might not drive that many more miles before they take away my license.  In my case, there's absolutely no point taking money to the grave...I'm on the other side of the "do as well as you can in life" trip - done it already.

I AM having fun yet.  There's a time for everything if you manage it well.


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:04 | 2707687 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

I would like to see if the Asian car makers (especially Toyota and Hyundai) are doing this as well, whether here in the USA, Asia or even Europe as well.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:43 | 2707706 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Everyone's doing the Hokey Pokey.

The Hokey Pokey

You put your right hand in,
You put your right hand out,
You put your right hand in,
And you shake it all about,

You do the hokey pokey
and you turn yourself around
That what it's all about.

Video instructions below.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:43 | 2707901 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

DoChen, they're all doing it and always have, along with non-car manufs.  It's the old trick - manuf gets paid more or less right off (usually there is some kind of financing game going on in parallel) and now the distributers have a real incentive to move the crap.  And it's not just the car guys, it's anyone who has a distributer in their chain.  See it all the time in computer an telecom gear too, it's nothing new, it's only more sometimes than at other times.  Standard "We've always done it this way" kind of stuff.  There are even whole magazines devoted to "chanels" of various sorts and they are always talking about it since I began to read - a number of decades ago.

Tyler and other GM-haters are just trying to grab clicks by pretending this is something new and mainly GM.  Assholes.  Yeah, it's bad - so why not reveal all the other instances of it, via real journalism and honest work?  Nah, that would take, well, journalism and hard work.

I guess it would occur to none of the super-brains here that if you have a factory that can turn out X units a month, but sales happen all at one time of kinda have to do something to match the output rate with the sales rate - either build a bigger factory (and lose all competitiveness) that fires everyone except for one month a year - or find a way to build at a constant efficient rate and somehow store the excess in the low sales months for times when sales are high.  No one here, evidently, has ever run a manufacturing outfit - I have, but not GM of course.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:56 | 2707958 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Phucking priceless!!!

In other words, and I'm being GENEROUS TO YOU here, a company should be able to produce Y number of widgets, whether there's organic demand for them at any given price, and if they start stacking up on retailer lots, they can offer increasingly higher discounts to sell said widgets, up to and including FIRE SALES (where said units are even sold at deep losses; i.e. at a price that is less than cost of production)!!!

And I quote (I say that for affect...):

"I guess it would occur to none of the super-brains here that if you have a factory that can turn out X units a month, but sales happen all at one time of kinda have to do something to match the output rate with the sales rate -"


How about producing the number of vehicles there is demand for, and not booking non-sale transactions that have yet to materialize as already materialized sales?

You have a future in comedy, stands-with-hurt-butt (fictional character name from Dances With Wolves).



Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:09 | 2708038 Kidrobot
Kidrobot's picture

So you think inventory sits at near 100% of production untill fire sales? 

There's a premium in every sale of the upcomming model to cover any short falls you might take liquidating the out going model, and still make a profit!

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:26 | 2708065 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

So auto manufacturers and dealers never lose money? Hmmm.


There's a premium in every sale of the upcomming model to cover any short falls you might take liquidating the out going model, and still make a profit!


You're talking about holdback cash and other incentives manufacturers dangle to dealers to move volume, I presume, but if you're implying these industry practices allow manufacturers or dealers to ensure profitability, you must not have been awake for the last several years (let alone decades).

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:24 | 2708651 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

TIS, I usually like what you say, but evidently I touched one o ya buttons.  I'm right, I've been around and not just around mom and what I said is true - consider it comedy if you wish (and at your peril).  With unions (you know, the guys I fucked over shorting GM into bankruptcy for enough to buy a new car from them - no one else was holdlng long at that point) you can't just "Adjust" as you wish.  It's a major problem in a lot of businesses - semi fab being another.  A great org (GM ain't one, BTW) manages this better than otherwise, but it's the main ongoing challenge to match capacity with demand, and no one gets it right all the time.  You think cars depreciate quick?  Try semi-fab gear, or specialized mining or drilling stuff.


Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:32 | 2708679 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

1st, my response to your prior comment on this subject in terms of tone was juvenile and inappropriate. For that, I apologize.

However, I do maintain that a) manufacturers are stacking vehicles high and deep on dealer lots (i.e. production is outpacing demand), and b) "channel stuffing" in the automotive industry is a different beast than trying to maintain production in other industries, as there would be, especially now, political repercussions of monumental proportions if the announcements of layoffs by U.S. automakers (cough**GM**Chrysler**cough) were made in this curious election year.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 20:21 | 2708791 BC6
BC6's picture

+10 for Stands-With-Hurt-Butt, LOL

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:56 | 2707987 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

DCFusor, + 1

Very perceptive about virtually all manufacturers counting "sales" as soon as their distributors buy.  That is EXACTLY the way that the bearing manufacturers score their sales: to the OEMs (GM, Hyundai) and to the replacement parts market (us in Peru).  Your two remarks here shed a lot of light on this subject, I had not thought about all of this before...

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:47 | 2708046 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

DoChen, you're comparing apples and oranges, though.

OEMs play book games, too, but it's not a similar issue. OEMs typically will book component sales early or late, depending on how they want to dress up their revenue numbers for any particular quarter, and they'll even use rebates back to the buyer (issued after the point of sale is recognized) to delay downward adjustments to revenue.

Auto dealerships 'floorplan' their vehicle acquisitions from the manufacturer, so if there's heavy pressure from manufacturers for their franchise-dealers   to 'take' vehicles- and just assume manufacturers have more leverage than franchise-dealers (it's true)- the dealers are going to ultimately find 'creative' ways to book sales, in order to allow them to acquire more vehicles.

What is floor plan financing?

Floor plan financing is a revolving line of credit that allows the borrower to obtain financing for retail goods. These loans are made against a specific piece of collateral (i.e. an auto, RV, manufactured home, etc.). When each piece of collateral is sold by the dealer, the loan advance against that piece of collateral is repaid.


In short, Dealer Floor Plan financing allows dealers to borrow against retail inventory. The dealer then repays that debt as they sell their inventory and borrows against the line of credit to add new inventory.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:49 | 2708195 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1  You picked a good name Truth!

I am learning stuff today, which is of course a good thing.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 17:06 | 2708211 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I learn new things every day, and I am wrong often, mahh brother.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:09 | 2708615 TrainWreck1
TrainWreck1's picture

DCFailure, please regale us more tales of the people that come up to you oogling your Volt, (because you were too old for a boy-racer bitchin Camaro), and your manufacturing prowess, oh mighty non-bottleneck wizard.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:27 | 2708661 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Another time TW.  I am in fact a retired CEO, and have started and run a couple sucessful businesses.

That's how I know what I said.

Interestingly, with the Camaro, it did pull in the chicks - gold diggers all, who liked to be seen with the car and stuff - who seriously wants their gold dug (and wasted)?  The Volt?  They want a ride.  I like that better.  The inside tech bling just seems to hypnotize them.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:06 | 2707695 mrktwtch2
mrktwtch2's picture

the only channel i like to stuff is between my womans

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:35 | 2707868 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

..and it's as wide as the English channel ?

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:06 | 2707696 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

We live in a world of fantasy and lies.  Things we are told to believe are not real.  We are constantly being indoctrinated and manipulated by fake news. 

This is just more proof of that.

I do not regret taking the red pill.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:50 | 2707726 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Gvt goon - "Ze hav wayz of makin' you regretz zit."

Now repeat after me. 2 + 2 = 5.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:10 | 2709020 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Fuck the red pill.


Look at what kind of shit hole Zion was.  Give me a subjective steak any day of the week.  Reality isn't as interesting as the fantasies we make up as civilizations. 

To make a really great society that's grounded in reality, well, that'd take an educated & morally sound population.  Sadly, the quality of people in management of systems don't allow for this. 


We're destined for suffering and fantastical narratives until we all die painfully.


And even then, the working stiff doesn't give a fuck about reality.  The working stuff is comfortable with his or her delusions.  I've tried on them, and I've given up.  Let them have it, because it's what they want.



Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:26 | 2709077 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Idiots who watch TV and Hollywood's shit enable this and The Matrix.  Keep watching sheep.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:08 | 2707709 surf0766
surf0766's picture

GM is roaring back ..............

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:08 | 2707710 savagegoose
savagegoose's picture

if they have nowhere to park a 7 series, maybe a nice 6.0L, i can provide a carport.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:08 | 2707712 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

a good friend has been selling cars for almost 20 years....first time ever he has not sold a single car in 3 WEEKS

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:14 | 2707743 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

The last time I went to a dealership the sales manager practically grabbed my ankle on the way out the door.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:34 | 2708120 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

So you guys notice the lot lizards, too, huh?


Car Dealership Dictionary of Automobile Dealer Terminology

  • LOT LIZARD: The sales people who stand around outdoors on the car lot, usually in small groups of two or three, waiting for a customer to come along so they can pounce on them to make a sale.




Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:47 | 2708184 Pairadimes
Pairadimes's picture

Almost ran over two different salesman a few weeks ago just trying to get to a parking spot (plenty to choose from), and had to wait for a third to step back so I could get my car door open. Boy were they pissed when I told them I was there to see the cheapo bait-and-switch car on the used lot for my son's first car.

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 10:13 | 2710153 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

There is also a trucker version of this term. I feel the offer may be getting similar. On a related note, how is Harley doing? I think I've seen a million new dealers, who is buying these things?

Fri, 08/17/2012 - 17:12 | 2715391 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Harley-Davidson is actually in big trouble, as their products are quite discretionary, they are saddled with lots of debt, and there have been many rumors of late that one private equity firm or another is going to ride to their rescue, like a Knight in Shining Armor, and rescue them from their ailments.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:25 | 2707811 NEOSERF
NEOSERF's picture

And after another August and September of poor retail results, the headlines shall proclaim that retailers expect a 10% increase in sales this holiday season, which will drive the algos crazy and push this market to 15K....know how the game is played and play it well.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:10 | 2707720 element115
element115's picture

Where's that dipshit Boilermaker with the "You don't work in the auto business so you don't know the truth..." comments?



Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:30 | 2708678 Boilermaker
Boilermaker's picture

Right here.

And, sure enough, you fucking morons take an article like this as evidence that there's something 'going on' rather than confirmation that it's absolutely fucking normal.  Who gives a shit if you personally don't like it or not?  You don't even know what you're even speaking to.  ZH throw some red meat to the idiots and sits back and allows the feeding frenzy to start.

What?  Does it surprise you that the 'esteemed' BMW isn't so esteemed?

Wait....CHEVY VOLT!  There, go have a jerk off fest with the other idiots.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:20 | 2707772 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

"You didn't Stuff That!"


Kick ass ZH


Thu, 08/16/2012 - 10:13 | 2710159 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

You didn't stuff that yourself, you had help stuffing it. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:21 | 2707777 Nachdenken
Nachdenken's picture

Whats good for GM is good for America.  So where is the problem ?

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:21 | 2707778 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

can I still send Obama a birthday card?

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 20:20 | 2708787 Totin
Totin's picture

I think he'd prefer if you sent him cash.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:27 | 2707823 Catullus
Catullus's picture

I just bought a fully loaded 2011 X5 (don't hate me, I'd rather buy a car than let it sit in a money market) with 1,400 miles on it. Demo car obviously. Originally retailed at $72k. Bought it for $58k all-in. I wonder what the dealer was carrying it BV for.

Btw, no one is going to lease you a demo car that one year into the next model year. You try calculating that depreciation. No fucking way. Better off leasing the newest model.

Still, because they're "selling" it to the dealer, the warranty starts when it's sold to the dealer. So your standard warranty already has a year on it. Something to think about when your car is as complicated a HFT algo.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:28 | 2707828 SDS Trader
SDS Trader's picture

Channel stuffing has been going on for ages. 

Why is it now somehow validated and made to look as though it redeemed the tin-foil-helmet crowd?  It's always been around.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:44 | 2707917 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Thanks, I posted that above before reading your comment.  And it's not just autos either.  Evidently there's (almost) no one here that knows the score already.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:01 | 2708007 LeisureSmith
LeisureSmith's picture

If nobody knows the score then what is the harm in shining a light on it? Some of your points are valid but, just because you get butthurt every time someone mentions GM in a negative way doesn't mean you have to be a smug douche.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:28 | 2708668 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Sorry bout that, occupational hazard of being knowledgeable and right more often than most.

See, smug again.  Hard to stop when you're on a roll.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:31 | 2707839 Bam_Man
Bam_Man's picture

Anyone buying any BMW other than a 3-series has no idea what an expensive, never-ending nightmare they are about to stumble into. The German compulsion to over-engineer in spades.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:49 | 2707948 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

First time something goes wrong with that 7 series you'll wish you never heard of it

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 17:17 | 2708281 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

Yeah Buy american!

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 21:31 | 2708943 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Neither of you have owned a BMW. I have owned a 750iL. Drove it like it was stolen. It was a 1996 V12 from South America. Don't ask how I got it into the states. Back in 2010, my girlfriend wreaked it in the driveway. She hit the accellerator and took off into neighbors yard. As watching plumes of smoke coming from the compacted engine compartment, she gently rolled back onto our property. I said " Are you alright ?". She replied " your fucking seat was too far back!". True story. It only had 93k and was stored in the winter months. The sheer amount of abuse that car took in rocket ship modes, it only cost me oil changes and detailing expense. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:52 | 2708203 Josiah Bartlett
Josiah Bartlett's picture

I have 2 -- a Z4 and a 550i. Couldn't be happier with either. Fun to drive. YOLO.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:07 | 2709026 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

I like the 550i, which is the poor man's M5. Last year, I had a local woman giving her's away. All black inside/out with sport package. I decided, to buy the house in marco Island instead. One more house buy free and clear, then I will purchase a used BMW fun toy (old M5 V10). Winks 

The Island has these compact car only spaces to park. I happen to find my Navigator taking up two spots. Go figure. LOL 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:38 | 2707888 Jack Sheet
Jack Sheet's picture

Bought a new  BMW 3 series a year ago. Now I'm getting promotional mail offering the same vehicle in the new model range for 10% less. Shit.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:48 | 2707947 5880
5880's picture

I've been in a bmw for the last 15 years

Genesis coupe 3.8r is my next car

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:53 | 2707968 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

Genesis is a great car. You're a 15 year guy so you'll be fine. Right now they depreciate too quick for anybody who's a short time owner

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:07 | 2709029 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The new BMW 328i is a great car too and not that much more money.  Gets better mileage too.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:41 | 2707903 Metalredneck
Metalredneck's picture

I have been in the car game for two & a half decades, with GM, Frod, Chry-baby & Subaru.  I have witnessed this first-hand, as all the small dealers went broke around here.  The only up-side, is I can fix anything that moves, and will never buy new again.


 My motorcycle turns 40 next year, and Vintage insurance is cheap.  Long live the rat-bike!!!  I feel as though I want to drop right out of this game.  Time to go grey-market.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:45 | 2707924 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Surely, Phil the Shill LeBeau will get to the bottom of this particular conspiracy...and he will keep us informed on the truth of the matter.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:50 | 2707951 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

He usually has too many dicks in his mouth to speak. Lately been blowing the Boeing guys a lot

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:46 | 2707930 toomanyfakecons...
toomanyfakeconservatives's picture

From conspiracy theory to conspiracy fact? At this rate, more people may start believing in the coming MASS ARRESTS, but I believe most will just be shocked spectators to the event...

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:47 | 2707943 youngman
youngman's picture

Seasonal Adjustments...I just had to say they have that for Cars?????

Actually is it stuffing.....or just no one buying??????

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 15:50 | 2707955 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Transit usage is up by Millenenials across the board......and it moreso than for the reason that they are liberal, "more green",'s because, well, we have no fucking money (and have no interest in new debt).

I'd also love to see "car rentention rates".  It's estimated that a person will go through 3-4.5 cars in a lifetime.  Granted, as technology gets better, cars should last longer....but part of this is always people wanted to upgrade, out of necessity OR they would get a better job, enabling them affording a new car/loan.

Now? People are holding on to what they can. 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:49 | 2708193 snblitz
snblitz's picture

"Granted, as technology gets better, cars should last longer"

I think is has gone the other way.  As technology has gotten "better" car life time has shortened.

Perhaps it is less so for some "foreign" brands.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:34 | 2708133 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Well, I think GM should just give me any car I want off one of their lots since my fucking tax dollars bailed that failed company out.  For the few of us left that actually pay federal income tax anymore (I suspect the majority here at ZH do, its good company BTW) we should all get free cars from Govt Motors.  Not that I would drive one of those piles of shit.  I could sell it on Craigslist and buy something better like 45k in junk silver.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 17:19 | 2708292 ronaldawg
ronaldawg's picture

You wouldn't want a GM car - built by fools.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:41 | 2708537 11b40
11b40's picture

I don't know what your experience with GM vehicles has been, but as a road warrior for 35 years, mine has been outstanding since the mid 80's.

It really is hard to beat a Cadillac or a Buick for both service and comfort.

I love my GMC Sierra 1500, too.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:30 | 2708674 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

I've heard of disasters, but my luck has been similar.  Good cars, they get the job done.  Not that there aren't other, maybe better ones, but those were fine for me.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:43 | 2708545 My Days Are Get...
My Days Are Getting Fewer's picture

Too much group-think here dawg.  I am on my second GMC 1500 Sierra 4 x 4 truck.  In 2002, the dealer has a huge December inventory of identical rigs, that no one wanted: small V8 engine; rubber flooring; crank windows; no electric locks; no CD player - just your basic truck.  Paid $14,000 cash + another $2,500 for an extended GMC warranty.  Ran the rig 7 years and 75,000 miles and had zero problems - but she was showing her age, despite my intense maintenance program.  I ran her in the forest to haul out firewood and re-supply my excavator with diesel fuel via my transfer tank.


In December 2009, the same dealer was giving away the same rigs - unwanted because of the absence of luxury features and a big engine.  So, for net $12,000, I traded in the old rig for an idential new one - except that I got a CD player and bose stereo system too boot.

Last month, I paid $3,000 to extend the GMC warranty 7 years and 70,000 miles.  GM, owned by the Government, will never go out of business and will be around to honor this warranty.  So, sometime before the warranty dies, I will trade this rig in.  For 10 years, I have been driving GMC trucks and have never had any problems.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:02 | 2709013 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

If you haven't had any problems for 10 years, why do you keep buying that waste-of-money, overpriced extended warranty (a fifth of the new price of the truck)?

I, too, have a GMC 1500 Sierra 4X4 (2004) that I paid $14K and change for.  No problems.  No extended warranty either.  Dealer service hasn't been stellar -- they only want to sell you worthless shit like flush the fuel system for hundreds of $$$.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 22:27 | 2709082 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

How many bailouts later does it take for you to realize that your buying your car on the dole of fellow taxpayers? 

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 16:40 | 2708157 patb
patb's picture

GM was channel stuffing in trucks because they are planning a major retooling outage for 5 months, so,

don't forget to account for that.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 17:25 | 2708313 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Like the ad says;

Chevy (Bullshit) Runs Deep


...or should say (but never will)

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:31 | 2708677 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

The one smart thing they've done this year was fire the guy who came up with that one.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 18:26 | 2708499 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

As much as I detest the bailout of U.S. automakers, on a relative scale, it's far more tolerable than the 100x the cost bailout of the shapeshifters on Wall Street, who not only don't make tangible products, but use taxpayer money to create new, non-tangible, but very real products of wealth vaporization.

Wed, 08/15/2012 - 19:31 | 2708681 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

+1 TIS.  Scale matters.

Thu, 08/16/2012 - 08:51 | 2709675 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

I don't know what to believe. Around here (central VA) I see almost as many new cars/trucks as I see people driving older vehicles for longer periods of time. What I have noticed is the Toyota dealership I bought my 2004 4Runner from has been constantly mailing me (and even called me once) asking me to trade my 4Runner in due to a 'major lack of quality used cars'.

Obviously I don't necessarily believe that, but it does give impetus to the notion that even Toyota is having trouble moving new inventory, and is trying this tactic (which I'm sure is not something new) to lure customers into new vehicles. Of course, as long as Tundras and Tacomas (4x4) retail for such ghastly figures, this trend will only worsen. Charging $47,000 for a friggin full size extended-cab pickup with a V-8 is ridiculous. And buying a min-truck with an inefficient V-6 that averages less than 20 mpg for over $30,000 is equally nuts.

I paid $27,000 for my 4Runner brand new back in 2004 and swore never again.

I do know that dealer lots around here are definitely not short on any models.


Thu, 08/16/2012 - 09:11 | 2709739 Ace Ventura
Ace Ventura's picture

BTW, I truly do miss my old '93 Mustang LX 5.0   Totally unrefined, yet ultra reliable and the most awesomest "merging with high-speed traffic" ability I've ever owned.

Oh yeah, and purchased brand new in 1993 for $15,000. Sigh. Try getting anywhere near anything with a 5.0L engine for that kind of money in this insane bizzarro world.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 07:09 | 2757300 leo_21
leo_21's picture

One can buy car's extended warranty if you have got a used car and your car warranty is over, this will help recover car repairs expenses as well as the extended warranty provider may arrange a mechanic anywhere if you are in trouble.
Used Audi A4 | Honda Civic Price

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