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Gold And Silver Plunge As EUR Reaches 15 Month Lows
It seems funds left redemptions until the last minute in the vain hope that everything will be fine in the European dis-Union as we see renewed selling pressure in EURUSD - taking out the January 2011 swing lows (as a mediocre Italian auction and failed Hungarian auction weigh heavily on the expectations for a 'solution' or firewall). Gold and Silver are also legging down hard (the latter now -9.5% from Christmas Eve) and the former loses $1550. Gold took out its September 2011 swing lows back to near six-month lows.
The USD is up around 1% since Christmas Eve's close with the EUR (and cable) underperforming and JPY outperforming (the only major cross that is stronger vs the USD). It also seems the AUD has a renewed corrrelation with the USD as we see Aussie bonds (the only 'safe' AAA govvie?) bid to record low yields.
Silver is the obvious (high beta) loser in this redemption/liquidation battle but Gold is 'decoupling' from copper here also. Interesting that Oil is stable just under $100 (and practically unch from Christmas Eve).
European sovereigns are all leaking wider with 10Y BTPs now almost 40bps wider than their tights yesterday, Portugal 10Y now 43bps wider than Christmas Eve's close and France 10Y also leaking badly (+15bps).
Elsewhere, ES is modestly higher from yesterday's day session close (as correlations with a weak Gold market are helping while every other risk asset driver is pointing negatively or flat). European corporate and financial credit spreads are notably wider (investment grade +7bps from yesterday's tights, Crossover +25bps, and senior financials +11bps) as European equities are now down nearly 1% from the Christmas Eve close.
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Forget about the "fundamentals" in PMs. It's the Black Swans that count. There is a greater money supply than ever, but PMs way down from their record prices. #WhatCrisis?
2008 part deux? Oil is like Baghdad Bob.
But gold isn't backed by anything - too funny must watch.
Oh fuck, if that isn't the dumbest thing I've ever seen in my life. - paraphrasing (but close to a direct quote): 'Investors are concerned that gold isn't backed by anything, as opposed to something like the us dollar, which is backed by the us government and the federal reserve. So investors are confident that the us dollar will be around in a year from now'.
So all you physical holders of gold, watch out, because it may magically disappear from your safe, or hole in the ground, or whatever, at any time! Might want to sell and get some of those soundly backed dollars. This is why the MSM can't be trusted for anything but a fucking laugh.
damn ancient Egyptians and ancient Chinese were stupid. Why did they bury their dead with gold? they should have buried them with federal reserve notes.
funnily enough though, traditional Chinese will burn paper money (its fake) at a funeral, but will bury their loved ones with gold.
Due to gold's chemical properties, you can't burn it.
She said the right thing but for the wrong reason. Gold really isn't backed by anything because it doesn't need to be. That's why fiat banknotes all over the world features a little line saying "we promise to pay the holder", or "this note is a legal tender for debts". They are backed up by the governments' tax revenue. No such promise is engraved on gold coins. When you give someone a gold coin, you PAID him, end of the story. No need to promise anything and no need to show any collateral
DisInfomation at its finest.
Paulson is selling GLD hand over fist for redemptions
Old News.
does the phrase....fist ******* ring a bell to PM bugs? 'Cos thats what he is doing to PM market if its true.
This is starting to hurt. 16 trillion printed/guaranteed since 2008, Gold should be north of $3,000 per oz by now. Oh well.
Indeed. I'm afraid all the doomers turn out wrong. PMs will muddle through. BTW, who's gonna pay 100's of bucks or euros for a gold coin? Not Joe Sixpack.
Yes, and JSP's talent for correctly timing the market and making the right investment decisions is renowned around the world. That's why the professional traders down on Wall Street both fear and revere him as their adversary in the market, and are always trying to guess what the wiley JSP will be up to next - looking for guidance as to where they should put their money, while simultaneously fearing that they're being set up to be the fallguy in Joe's next market manipulation scheme.
12 more hours and I'll have sold all of my physical silver at just above break even. Whew!
I'm switching the money over to gold and looking for a re-entry point on silver at $20, if it ever happens. If it doesn't I won't cry.
At a ratio of 57:1?
That's not a very sensible play... just saying.
To answer those who think that the silver bugs are morons, it's a matter of the ratio- aside from the two side bets that are true of silver (medical and industral uses), but not gold, silver is essentially a cheap buy-in to gold holdings.
I'm not going to pump the 16:1 ratio, as it hasn't hit that in a really long time- but the average for the last several decades has been 40:1. If you're trading into gold anyway, wait until the ratio is better.
It's also a bonehead move to "sell" silver to "buy" gold. That opens you to premiums and capital gains (if there are any in terms of paper price) when you could be making a like-kind commodities trade. Find someone who will trade the ratio- the guy at my local coin shop will do it, and I'm sure you can find someone near you who will as well.
Silver and gold are the two choices you're presenting- there's not going be be a case where gold cannot be bought for silver. Even gold bugs need change made now and then, and they're not going to take Visa.
Diversification in PMs is a good idea. I hold both Au and Ag, although much more $ value in gold. Ag will be for spending if things get BAD.
Gold will be for carrying my wealth to the other side and/or given away.
Re the GSR, I too think that the long seen 16:1 does not mean much. The 50:1 or so we see now (IMO) will likely maintain itself, although I DO understand the case that silver bulls make.
Crap... I bought 350 ounces of silver at 34 $ per ounce a week go with my christmass bonus...
Why are you marking to market? The big banks don't, and unlike you they bought on margin.
Buy 500 ounces now......
fricking lucky u SD getting xmas bonus......that is rare around where I work. merry xmas and ahappy new year....
I bought a monster box a few weeks ago when silver was $31.84. I figured it was a decent buy relative to other prices we'd seen. I am not much of a trader, and I ignored a lot of people saying there would be a strong dollar and commodity sell-offs with additional European crises. But I'd also heard that when prices get really cheap, then availability of physical is poor. I know that in Oct 2008 when I first got in, all I could get was Kennedy Half dollars and COMEX bars. I much prefer 1 oz coins or 90% bags for liquidity and ease of transport. I have a five year outlook. If this silver buy doesn't outperform cash over this period, I'll be surprised and disappointed. I'll be bummed if silver hits sub $20, but I feel more like my thing with physical is like a marriage, you're in for the long haul and you don't divorce without there being no other option. My target is something like $100/oz, or if that becomes meaningless, then a gold-to-silver ratio of 30:1 or better.
Sudden Debt and commenters "between" us.
Please do not worry about BTFSpike! As long as you are buying PMs through time, you will be just fine. Most of the gold I have bought was typically near a Spike. Those spikes were all transitory, which will almost certainly be true thius time as well.
It's all about the ounces.
Tops and bottoms are for fools
I agree to you to some extent- but I think it should perhaps read "[Timing] tops and bottoms [is] for fools."
It's like that saying goes- Bears make money, Bulls make money, Pigs get slaughtered. I saw something in the 5 year silver chart that makes me believe that we are seeing a temporary bottom at $26 (low was $26.11 today) before a slowish rise back to the $45 area, and then a spike to around $80. Looks like there is a sort of natural silver cycle whose amplitude is increasing with the expansion of the money supply. If the pattern holds, we're at the beginning of the fourth cycle of this, perhaps more- but with the essentially flat line through the 80's and much of the 90's, it's hard to see prior to that.
Of course, past behavior is no guarantee of future performance- but in this case, I pulled the trigger at $27/oz, and am happy enough with that in the face of today's rally. I would have done it at $28.60, but I was busy with other things, and it snuck up on me. Waiting for the bottom of $26 probably would have missed the mark.
All that being said, this is an intellectual exercise only. My strategy is still dollar-cost arbitrage on a regular schedule, regardless of price. I only take an interest because I have a stake in the silver market, and life has a way of making you do things you'd rather not do- like sell coins to get the car fixed, or other nasty eventualities.
When do we get a "sell off" in food, gas, rent and medical ? Anecdotal Monedas market watch: My local dollar stores used to be about 20%+ food items.....now they're 15%- food items....and much crumblier stuff ? Smaller porcions ! This grind down in PMs is not your father's collapse in PMs ? The jury will be in when we see how robust the rebound is....no one doubts the PMs are coming back to newer, higher highs ? As far as Iran....barking dogs don't bite ! Monedas 2011 Comedy Jihad Strong Hands On The Tiller !
Very good point! +10
It gets better ! They moved what's left of the food and beverages to the back of the store ! That means they aren't "pushing it" (not as profitable as plastic tid bits) and/or they're not worried about shoplifting with the crappy remnants ! I woke up this morning and my PM ledger was unchanged ! Hoarders aren't having much fun....but our suicide rate is way down ! Monedas 2011 Comedy Jihad Weathering the Tempest In My Tea Pot !
Dollar Stores in this area are closing for lack of business while new Dollar Stores are under construction!
Some biz plan, eh?
Many food items are priced well over a dollar ! The whole dollar store concept is being challenged because of insufficient good stuff that can be sold for a dollar and make a profit ! Lays potato chips....4 0z. in a 8 Oz. bag....$1.25 ! One ounce of silver $26.50 will get you 21.2 4 Oz. bags of potato chips ! 5.3 lbs of potato chips for one ounce of silver ???? Not since the Irish Potato Famine ???? Silver is a screaming buy ! We all know what we get when we eat those potato chips....soiled panty liner syndrome ! You can lick that silver ounce once a day for a 1000 years with virtually no lost metal ! That's 365,000 licks !!!
+ 1, +1 and + 1
Great conversation Sudden, Snidley and Monedas!
Au and Ag will carry you through almost any crisis.
Those of you who doubt that there will ever be a "crisis"? Even if there is no such crisis, WE physical owners sleep better. So far, holders of physical have done very well through the decades. Without a crisis (well sort of in 2008).
I think that Au and Ag are great places to put 5% - 10% (or more) of your wealth. Even 20%. If we get the really BIG moves, then who will the winners be? Exactly. We will!
Only paper silver and gold being hurt - their true value 100th of current real value of gold/silver. Paper silver should go to 30c/paper-oz OR physical silver has to go to $3000 per physical oz.
So why are the miners getting crushed? Those are "real" businesses with "real" gold in the ground?
Many miners probably "leveraged" themselves into ambitious expansions which now have a cloud over them....although a temporary cloud....it hurts ?
I got a buck that says a dozen or more hedge fund managers are right now busy looking up producing miners phone numbers in an attempt to lock in physical deliveries ASAP. Any producers locking production at these numbers are idiots and should be fired. Sell enough to fund production and vault the rest until real price discovery occurs not this flurry of naked paper selling.
I think producers are very much like insurance companies. Think about this. Why would an insurance company insist that is clients be treated only by the large non-profit hospitals or their affiliates? When private hospitals provide the same services at 1/5th of the cost? It is collusion. A small group of people who serve on the board of directors of both companies. In my local economy i know this to be a fact. It's my guess that the mining producers are also not acting in the best interests of their shareholders.
There are many reasons for the current slide although here in Australia you cannot even buy precious metals at the moment because dealers are closed for holidays.
All i can say to those with trembling hands and sweting brow is that the DOW has been an absolute dog over ten years so why not panic into selling your equities? Or wher is the joy in your cash which is earning fuck all as prisoner of Bernanke's policies. Or where is the bonanza in real estate that is on constant life support.
For every buyer there is a seller and it is not entirely coincidental that Chna has stopped the buying of gold through all "unregulated" exchanges in recent days.
When the price reverses those that are currently panicking and sweating will be cursing themselves for not having seized the opportunity.
PM jitterbugs in short term, does it mean a loooong knee jerk up some time later in 2012, when the fiat money starts coughing blood by the bucket?
There is a raging forrest fire and the TPTB and corrupt bed fellows are all trying to get you to sell your house insurance.
BTW, anyone know where retail can buy Australian government bonds?
Hi css http://www.rba.gov.au/fin-services/bond-facility/
I hope that is what your looking for.
GSR to 70+, i will catch this falling silver knife multiple times, i need to build my stack. best decision for a good night's sleep ever.
gold in the 1400 range might be tempting but passing in silver is harrrrrd.
This bull kicked off 10 years ago
The GSR ratio is presently sitting at the same point as when it started in 2001
I have my doubts it will finish without ever touching more "historical" settings to the downside
Silver's a steal above a 40:1....and should provide for "free" gold in the future
Maybe the evil manipulators took advantage of the physical market being less able to respond during the Holidays ?
Steady men, steady. Since the fundamentals have not, and cannot, change now is the time to buy on the dips....
"Since the fundamentals have not, and cannot, change."
That's right! Just as residential real estate NEVER goes down ... I'd buy it, but there are never any dips!
"Since the fundamentals have not, and cannot, change."
Absolutely right. When Alan Greenspan was Chairman, he had three buttons on his desk, "raise interest", "lower interest" and "print". El Maestro knew exactly what he was doing and bailed long out before the poop hit the fan. Uncle Bennie moved into the office and realized that only the "print" button is responsive. So his job essentially consists of two parts: 1. printing and 2. hiding, obscuring and disguising the printing. QE1, QE2, Operation Twist, Assets Purchase, Currency Swap are all rubbish jargons the for the same printing and monetary expansion. All bluff for one same old trick
This the only truth, the only reality and the only fundamental that I care about. If the Bernank comes out with a new trick I'd reconsider, but until then, keep piling up
Exactly the miners are a bunch of total idiots , what the hell are they thinking . Their stock prices should be double or triple where they are now.
If you're holding phys you have neither a loss or gain unless you buy or sell...
Be right and sit tight. Nothing has fundamentally changed except the amount of manipulation of paper has increased.
Gold is like a home... if you move out of it you have to move to another dwelling. What other dwelling do you trust more than gold?
"If you're holding phys you have neither a loss or gain unless you buy or sell ..."
You've convinced me, Snidely! I take back all those bad things I said about zombie banks who refuse to mark their toxic portfolios to market ...
How is that any different from saying if you hold fiat, you neither have a gain or loss until you exchange it for stuff, regardless of whether that stuff is groceries or gold?
The European situation is getting worse; growth will be negative in 2012. On that note, the Euro drops and the dollar goes up. No surprise, its one piece of shit for another. With the no growth scenario in Europe, the Asian collapse, the US mired in debt and confusion, ...as we speak, equity futures are up and Gold is down 9.5% in 4 days and this all makes sense? To me it reeks of complete fraud on the part of the sewer in Chicago and most probably the JP Morgan gangsters.
Gold and Silver have been safe haven stores of value for 5000 years. Ben Bernanke and his circus have convinced the US sheep that this law of economics has been repealed and treasury bonds yielding low returns and funded with counterfeit money and USD printed out of thin air are now the new safe haven vehicles, Gold and Silver are shit. Surprisingly enough, he has idiots like Roubini who agree.
We have turned into a circus!
No one is really convinced that treasuries are safe haven. Some people might temporarily park their money in treasuries because they are easy to get rid of, others are banksters who receive free money from Fed and promise the Bernank to buy treasuries to return favor.
Most of the sheeps don't have much disposable income to invest anyways. Their extra money goes into some absolute necessities of life like iphone, ipad or other assorted stuff that Walmart or Target offer. Law of economics means nothing to them because they are concerned about far more pressing and important issues like dancing with stars and baseball games. After all, someone else will take care of their retirement, they think. That "someone or something else" could be kids, relatives, federal government, state government, social security, IRA, 401k, life insurance, equity on McMansion (how did that one work out?), Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Santa Clause, Peter Pan, space aliens, flying spagettie monster, great pumpkin, and, no offense to those of you who are religious, God and Jesus Christ too (I think Jesus told people not to worry about the future. He didn't tell them not to prepare for the future, but apparently a lot of people don't know how to read)
If a guy earns his money through honest work and sets it aside for investment, he'd always do that prudently and he'd always be concerned about return of investment and return on investment. In that case, the law of economy always works, in the long run that is. In that sense, Benny can sway no one and con no one
Gold and silver have been stores of value for 5,000 years -- true. Paper "money" is a relatively new phenomena, so it hasn't needed to compete with PMs for very long yet. One shouldn't forget that serfdom for the average human has been around even longer and historically serfs were never allowed to accumulate much gold and silver.
Anyone that doesn't believe the feudal system is still alive and operational hasn't been paying attention.
At this point any talk about the price of Au/Ag needs to be taken in context with who is buying physical - specifically, which central banks and sovereign entities, in view of the falling price which could imply manipulation for a purpose other than simply making short term profits from "trading."
Has this recent price drop been reflected in accelerated purchases by govts and other money printers who have essentially adopted a double standard: Fiat for the chumps/masses and physical gold/silver for the govt.
Then of course, if there is an inverse relationship between increased central bank purchases and falling prices, is it coincidental or manipulated.
If the govts/central banks are buying up physical, then it would tell me that they are getting ready for the end game in which they know the printed fiat will be worthless. Gold = Tradition? Hmmph. The only tradition I see is governments and their henchsquids screwing over the masses.
Next step will be the flag flying high and off to war we go to decimate another country to line the Rothchilds Army with more wealth at the expense of young American boys and girls.
Gold will close in on 1400/Oz. Which should equate to 24/Oz Silver. Buy with both hands at that point!
I am watching for GS, JPM, and MS to publish their gold price predictions for the next quarter at $1200-$1400/oz, then I'd expect prices to skyrocket above $1900 within 5months. You can rarely go wrong being contrary to the squid. If they go the other way, then it's a whole different ballgame & I'd be wondering what's really in store for gold investors and the real economy - there is no price discovery mechanism, just COMEX margins hikes, MSM propaganda, and the overpowering stench of more green bile cascading out of Bernanke's anus to make us all poorer. It's an election year, so no doubt it will be spend, spend, spend. The mindfuck begins.
Would like to buy more PMs but like everyone else, I'm broke after the Christmas mania.
Broke after the Christmas mania? So, you fell victim to the brain-washing? Don't worry, next year will be a different kind of Christmas. Bet on that.
+1. Afraid so. Horribly difficult to be a scrooge when you're dating a pretty girl. Economic calamity before Christmas next year is entirely possible, but then again, I've been saying that every year for 6yrs & so have a lot of others at ZH.
True enough, but good poontang is its own reward.
With regard to economic calamity, I said the same thing this time last year, but, some things I expected in 2011 did come to pass, just not to the degree I anticipated. The signals are even stronger now, though, so I expect 2012 will be the year that future historians will point to as the year everything changed.
I once took out a girl that was so pretty I could barely keep my eyes on the taxi meter
"and the overpowering stench of more green bile cascading out of Bernanke's anus"
Yeeew, that's disgusting. I think I'll use plastic more often from now on
That plastic is his anus.
Everyone knows that, for most people, physical gold is a long play, essentially providing a kind of insurance for when the US debt becomes unsustainable and the dollar is replaced with another currency, possibly backed by gold. If people don't have the balls to hold on to this metal while TPTB manipulate the prices to protect the status quo, well they shouldn't be holding it at all. The dollar is not going to lose it's value just yet, TPTB have a lot of looting to do before that happens.
The dollar is not going to lose it's value just yet, TPTB have a lot of looting to do before that happens.
Not for very long because crap has already hit fan for the chinese and japanese, they'll have to stop buying treasuries and start selling the holdings. How long can the dollar survive when Benny and his PDs are the only ones showing up at treasury auction?
Where are all the silver experts who were yelling to "back up the truck" and "buy with both hands" when silver first dropped from $49 to $40?
Are you hoarding tins of Foie Gras in your potato cellar ?
Actually yes. Plus some Cabernet Sauvignion and a couple crates 1970s Rioja.
Probably wallowing in a catatonic stupor, in complete disbelief that their linear extrapolations didn't hold up.
people simply refuse to accept that Silver is in a BEAR market.....its target looks more like 17 dollars again.....but from there it can take another go at 70-80 dollar an ounce some time in the future
Anything that can bounce back to $70-80 a trounce is not in a "Bear Market" ! A "Bear Market" implies a fundamental malaise that's going to hang around awhile ? This is a "Smack Down" that will soon climb the ropes and jump down on the chest of the unprepared investor !
....and how many months of downward movement confirms this bear market?
Silver is in no market.
Cant be said that it is in bear, unless that means it is in a continuous negative manipulated market by TPTB that will not end until their target of $x. Meanwhile miners will not part with silver for the targetted price because of fundamentals, industrialists will pay more because they need physical metal for production. OF course if there is not a system collapse earlier in the piece because of supply fundamentals enforcing reality.
Many miners don't have the luxury of holding out for a higher price. They have ongoing expenses like payroll and energy they have to pay.
Lunatics talking about market this and that when there is no market. All that you get to see glimpses of is price movements (reality) when they stand back from manipulation for a moment.
The market is what it would be if there were no systemic accute corruption of it by TPTB and their banking cartel.
Right on ! TPTB wanted a "pull out the rug from under them" collapse like they used to get....this slow burn down is surely not what those manipulator ghouls were hoping for ! 5.3 lbs. of potatoes chips for a trounce of silver ??? Bah ! Humbug ! This stuff is laughably, historically cheap !
Err ...only physical, a big gun, remoteness & lots a food are going to be important very soon.
All this war & general slavery for 200yrs can be traced out of one house. The Rothschild.
We sit here & debate in angst above about the variations in a system, they designed, which enslaves us.
Bulls&Bears...lol
Think I'll go go put a plastic bag over my head...
Manipulation? Fear not, the CFTC is winding up their 3rd year of an official investigation into COMEX Silver trading.
It must be like, really complicated or something.
LOL... Well said, Clint!
Well....It is about 100 pages long....maybe they're slow readers?
Come to think of it....they're pretty slow with getting around to doing much of anything.
Stalling and enabling....that's what they do well at the CFTC
http://www.cmegroup.com/tools-information/lookups/advisories/market-regulation/CMEGroup_RA1107-5.html
The powers that be who control the world buy gold low, drive the price up, sell high, and drive the price down again. Then buy low, drive the price up, etc. etc. They know how to play the game, in fact, they made the rules which allowed them to control the gold market. Only they know when to buy low because they control the low point. When they notice they can't drive it any higher, they sell.
Silver is so cheap ! Buy it, bag it, throw it down the coal shute and forget about it !
Anybody think Kyle Bass is bailing. Ya think Ann Barnhardt is nervously hauling her stash to the local coin shop. Watch CNBC, they're sweating bullets but trying to act as if noting is wrong...everything is fine. Most amusing show on TV right now.
Wow. Brilliant. Thanks for the incredible insight (sarc.) WTF? Serously, for the douc*ebag who put the charts together, write an article about how the banks and their use of technology will destroy commerce because it's more than apparent that no one gets it - safety is illusory until the platforms are destroyed. There is no such thing as a "safe haven" because of the "0's and 1's".
The fucking global house is on fire, and insurance is not only still available, but actually going on sale, and yet some people are worrying that the paper value of their insurance policy has dropped, instead of jumping at the chance to buy more.
If it was your house, and it was on fire, and you called the insurance company to ask if you could double down and they actually offered to sell more insurance at a discount, would you buy it, or would you worry because the price for the insurance was too low, and think that maybe the best idea would be to just ignore the fire?
The sovereign debt crisis is slowly turning into a currency crisis.Just wait.
Here are some recent data on london fix silver:
March 17 2008 20.92
October 24 2008 8.88
September 22 2010 21.08
April 28 2011 48.7
I CAN'T believe I haven't seen this in the comments:
BTFD!!!!
Gold and silver price you see is based on paper trades
MF Global screwed paper holders of all description. Anyone with a brain is dropping paper trades and getting out of the rigged casino markets !!
Since precident has been set and everyone with a brain knows that the crooked .Gov is NOT enforcing property rights and that you can lose your property -- I am not at all surprised that anything traded in paper will fall.
There will be a decoupling.
Stock up all things physical while you have the chance
How about this
* U.S. Tax revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
* Fed budget: $3,820,000,000,000
* New debt: $ 1,650,000,000,000
* National debt: $14,271,000,000,000 -- REALLY 15 Tril +
* Recent budget cuts: $ 38,500,000,000
Let's now remove 8 zeros and pretend it's a household budget:
* Annual family income: $21,700
* Money the family spent: $38,200
* New debt on the credit card: $16,500
* Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710
* Total budget cuts: $385
Does anybody think they can fix this mess.
well one can easily see the implications it has on the euro certainly versus USD and the above chart highlights many facts http://www.traddr.com/forum/topics/daily-technical-analysis-by-fxcc-29dec11
?hoho bloody ho
Nero & fiddle comes to mind, only it's global...
Hunker down into troglodytism or kill the Rothschild Inc...that's what we are left with...I am betting Rothschild will win....again again again....
In the first half of this century, between USD and gold, which one has more probability to be worth nothing?
www.igolder.com/glossary/hyperinflation/A-Hungarian-man-sweeps-paper-mon...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB-OtHBrOTI&feature=player_embedded#!
i can't tell you guys what to do with your cash...............but this video has good stuff in it and i had some extra cash i know what i would do........
wait a minute. what is this shit about the SLV trustee is under investigation for fraud. say its not so.............oh my..............
but we all know, the outcome of the 'investigation' will be the same as the outcome of the MF global investigation..
'nothing to see here move along'
The collapse of the paper / buy off with freshly printed fiat / physical delivery is a myth maipulated market.Good riddance to bad rubbish,
Physical going into orbit real soon,oh yeah !!!!!!!!!!!
Everyone was talking about the damage done to the CME and comex by the MFG heist. When the results start to stream in, (paper prices dropping on a big paper sell-off) we blame our metal and think it is actually becoming less desirable.
The banks want what you've got, all of these maneuvers are specifically to separate you from it. If gold was as small a market as silver, it would be beaten down with equal alacrity. The banks sit on lots of gold, but silver? They flat don't have it, which is another reason to put a match to it.
The ones saying to buy every week are the same ones that denounce 401ks since they are a constant bid for the speculators to feast on. You might understand storing of wealth but not accumulating it. No one says sell all your gold but if you are really in for the long haul you should be enjoying the swings with your trade pile
another drubbing in FRNs! nothing like shiniest turd in the punch bowl status, baby!
guess it's a good time to watch this again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tScuHwVtRcY
Just watched the fascinating video. Many thanks for the link, it's a real eye-opener.
The administration is looking to borrow another 1.2 Trillion USD. At today's price that is another 780,000 ounces of gold give or take. I know the equation not as simple as that, but its an interesting thought.
hey we all wanted the crimex to fail.. now it's failing.. this price action is what happens when you have thin trading in a manipulated market.
we have all been told what to expect, so be patient, sit back and watch the (crime) show. no one in their right mind would use the crimex anymore, so everyone is running for the doors. prices will likely plummet until a new clearinghouse is established.
i have always been amused at gold being priced in fiat anyhow.. isn't that kinda backwards ?
king world news explains the tactics the banksters used to take down gold because of the extremely tight silver supplies....for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, you have been granted a fabulous buying opportunity....
mfglobal probably damaged the futires markets. i wouldn't trust paper price
I like gold and bought some years ago, but this crash is killing me. No, gold doesn't protect you agains the crash of a major currency like the euro. No I can't get rid of my physical gold at a price that is not related to paper gold.
All that is true today. It may not be true tomorrow or in 10 years but it is true today.
I am a bit tired of all those people who refuse to face the music and keep telling me that gold is great. Gold is really not better than the US$ today, it's not even better than the dying euro.
go ahead and sell whatever you've got for fiat then? dollar hegemony's days are numbered. too bad no one knows that date.
I doubt either one of us will live forever. A range of dates is necessary if one is to make an intelligent decision.
“Après moi le déluge”
Yes, you can get rid of your gold at a rate that is not related to the paper product. I have sold one ounce of silver, ever- just to see how it went. Got a buck under spot for it.
OTHO, I've bought plenty of goods with silver- and if one were to do the conversions, trading silver coin for goods puts the price right around $60/oz. I would suspect that gold is the same. It does limit what and with whom you can trade, but in my experience, any primary producer will accept payment in specie for goods or materials. Target will not take it, Wal-Mart will not take it, but who cares? A farmer will take it, a logger will take it, firearms dealers love it, medical professionals will take it and I'd bet you anything the police would confiscate it at a traffic stop if you have it (read: I'd bet it works great for bribes.)
So far, even with the bad appearance of the spot price in the second half of this year, I'm still up close to 100% on every completed trade for this year, and even more importantly, those trades have established a basis for local trading in specie. The profit comes from the transfer of coinage from paper denomination to physical market.
I know it's hard to decouple your own mind from USD in a trade- I still do it, and it makes negotiating harder. But if you think in terms of USD, you will take a loss- they made that structure over the metals, and they control it. The whole point of metal is for you to control it, and when you refer back to currency denominations, you are still using the system you do not control.
We have these endless arguments about how much the real "price" of metal may be, but that's stupid. When you do that, you're still trading dollars. What makes Au and Ag desirable is the fact that they store a unit of human labor. That unit is effort+resources/yeild in terms of how difficult it is to extract these metals from the Earth. The amount of work required to harvest an ounce of gold is the amount of work that ounce of gold you can control with it. The more refined the product, the greater the value. IE, a double eagle is worth more than a nugget, because the work of transport, refining, and minting has been added to the intrinsic value of the raw metal.
If you want the markets to decouple, this is the only method for true price discovery- all the units of work must be accounted for, and expressed in oz- the same is true of anything else, oil must be expressed in barrels/oz, wheat must be expressed in bushels/(crude oil) barrels, firewood must be accounted for in cords/bushel and so on. Far from being a radical concept, this is what humans have always done- it's just been intentionally obscured by a currency layer that allows for siphon points that middlemen can tap.
Your profit is already there- all you need to do is learn how to access it. Nobody is saying that is easy, but it is possible, and if you've got more than an ounce or two, I'd say it's well worth your while.
Deserves +1 Good advice.
Not quite sure how it will relate to me, as a city boy with no suppliers that I know of who may consider such a trade, but definitely worth considering for the future. Perhaps I'm just greedy, but right now, I'm averse to giving away my gold for services and goods even at a profit. :)
Employment goes down so gold should go? up? Yeah ok. Good luck with that, the only people buying gold are horders, traders, speculators, and the only person that needs gold are chip manufacturers. The broken will sell their gold at lower and lower and lower prices, not higher, thats preposterous. This is where golds counterparty RISK comes into play.
What risk you ask?
"Any non-usable commodity (to you) or other "store of wealth" -- no matter what it is -- must be traded to someone (a counterparty) for what you wish to consume.
If that counterparty doesn't have a use for what you wish to trade him, whether it be gold, silver, T-Bills or federal reserve notes then what you have in that instant is worthless. As such all such assets have "counterparty risk.""
Notice the word USE in the second to last sentance. As more and more people lose jobs, go broke, etc, etc, what USE does gold have???? And 'a store of wealth' doesn't count. SO? WHAT USE DOES IT HAVE? ------------NONE---------- Thats what I thought you would come up with.
Same two uses it always had- making things sparkle, and non-perishable trade lubricant.
With the greatest of respect bill1102inf,
"..the only people buying gold are horders, traders, speculators.."
Surely that just about covers most assets/equities/bonds etc.., so not quite sure what that tells us really?
".. and the only person that needs gold are chip manufacturers."
..and people who buy rings, jewellery etc. - that market goes back some 5+K years, so it's not just a flash in the pan, I'd say.
Counterparty risk? But that's just trading or market risk & it depends upon the putative buyers' circumstances. For the poor unfortunate with no legs, unicycles have little value, or to the deaf person, iPods are pretty much excess to requirements. Extreme examples yes, but I'd be hard pushed to imagine an example much more extreme than the 5K years of gold being valued, sought after & intrinsically valued as currency becoming a useless or worthless entity. Not all history is bunk.
Cue the gold bears.
I love weak-dick metal pussies! I bought some more physical today. Love TFD's!
if you bury your PM's make sure you have a contigency for locating it if you have a stroke or die. There is a lot of buried treasure out there because those tight lips became loose drooling lips after not eating healthy and exercising. It doesnt do you any good to save PM's your entire life and not have a plan to recover them in a manner that you would want. Shit happens and it happens quick.
http://blog.milesfranklin.com/zero-hedge-sucks-yeah-you-tyler-durden wtf