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Goldman Sachs: "Welcome To The Great Stagnation"

Tyler Durden's picture



A little under a year ago, with much pomp and circumstance, Goldman’s economic team proclaimed its multi-year long bearish outlook on the economy over, and on December 1 of 2010, issued a report in which it noted that it was turning a new leaf in its “bleak” perception of the economy, based in big part on its expectation that the combination of an ebullient monetary environment (QE2 has just been launched) and a cornucopic (sic) fiscal stimulus (the first, of many, payroll tax cuts had just been passed) would lead the economy to a sustained growth of not less than 4% (and led Zero Hedge to officially proclaim Goldman as having jumped the shark in conjunction with our prediction that a year hence the US economy would be contracting yet again). Zero Hedge was right, and Goldman was 100% wrong. Today, we however witness something different: in what seem to be a major paradigm shift within the firm’s strategic research team (not Jan Hatzius’ group but that of Dominic Wilson), the firm appears to officially give up on “recovery” as a modal outcome for both the US and the developed world, and instead aims a little lower. Far lower. The report is titled “From the 'Great Recession' to the 'Great Stagnation'” and in an extended analysis looking at 150 years of historical data, it concludes that “those historical lessons suggest that the probability of stagnation in the current environment is much higher than usual, at about 40% for developed markets. Trends in Europe and the US are so far still following growth paths that would be typical of stagnations.” Looks like Goldman just proved us at least half right when we said in January that the keyword of 2011 would be “stagflation.” Luckily, the Fed and the world’s central banks still have 3 months in which to prove the second half of our prediction correct as well.

Sure enough, such an outright capitulation would be quite uncharacteristic for Goldman, which does provide a last ditch deus ex machina: “whether these countries manage to avoid a ‘Great Stagnation’ by a pick-up in the recovery is likely to depend on policy being able to restore confidence and putting in place reforms that can decisively jolt growth.” We would say it otherwise, all hope abandon ye who put your hope in politicians. Goldman just proclaimed, in not so many words, that the great western world growth fairy tale is now over.

So without further ado, here is…

From the ‘Great Recession’ to the ‘Great Stagnation’, published September 29, 2011

Economies can either grow, contract, or stagnate. Since 2009, most concerns have centered on the second of those outcomes, and the prospect of a fresh recession. But with two years of positive but sub-par growth and cyclical sectors already depressed, it is now becoming more common to hear worries that we are heading not for a sharp renewed contraction but instead for a prolonged period of sluggish or stagnant growth. The poster child for this kind of outcome is Japan’s experience in the 1990s. And comparisons of the current experience with Japan have been rife for some time from policy makers, academics and market analysts alike.

How likely is a prolonged stagnation? The problem with answering this question through a focus on Japan is that it is just one episode, and quite a distinctive one. Relying on that to make an assessment of the current risks is an unnecessarily narrow prism through which to look at the current environment. We have already shown that the history of housing busts in the OECD since 1970 more generally is associated with long periods of sub-par growth. But the range of experiences and outcomes here too is quite wide.

Here we ask the question the other way round, focusing more directly on the risks of a prolonged (decade-long) stagnation. To do that, we crunch the numbers through 150 years of macroeconomic history. Taking such a broad sweep limits the kinds of analysis that can be done given the constraints of data. But it allows a much wider look at the conditions and features of periods of stagnant growth, with the following results:

  • Although the Japanese experience of the late 1990s has received a lot of attention, we find about 20 more episodes of that kind under a range of definitions, mostly in the post-war developed world. Japan may or may not be a paradigm but it is certainly not unique.
  • Per capita GDP growth during these episodes hovers steadily below 1% (at 0.5% on average). CPI inflation tends to be low and steady, signalling aggregate demand pullbacks. Unemployment is high and sticky. Housing prices tend to fall, especially in comparison to their pre-stagnation dynamism, while stock-market returns are far weaker than their historical averages.
  • These events tend to be correlated with, if not preceded by, financial crises, especially stock-market crashes. Put simply, the probability of stagnation is much higher after financial crises.

Those historical lessons also suggest that the probability of stagnation in the current environment is much higher than usual, at about 40% for developed markets. Trends in Europe and the US are so far still following growth paths that would be typical of stagnations. Given those risks, whether these countries manage to avoid a ‘Great Stagnation’ by a pick-up in the recovery is likely to depend on policy being able to restore confidence and putting in place reforms that can decisively jolt growth.

Stagnations Are More Common Than You Would Think….

Japan, you are not alone. From an analytical perspective, this is fortunate. Because episodes of stagnation are more common than is sometimes assumed, we can use information from a wider range of experiences to understand what the features of periods of stagnation normally are, and to assess the probability of stagnations occurring now.

To do that, we first need to define the kind of experience we want to capture from the historical record. We define episodes of stagnation as long-lasting periods of sub-par GDP per capita growth that are not interrupted by either sharp contractions or a return to mean growth. In practice, we devised an algorithm that filters growth through ‘stagnation bands’ (more details on these bands are provided in the box on the next page), accounting for differences in income levels and slow shifts in the patterns of growth across countries. We then define an episode of mild stagnation as one in which countries stay between an upper and lower bound for more than six years, and an episode of serious stagnation, our main focus here, as one that lasts more than 10 years. Sharp new recessions or significant recoveries are thus excluded from these definitions. In practice, any particular definition will have some strengths and weaknesses, but some plausible alternatives yield broadly similar conclusions.

We then apply this definition to a large data set, covering dozens of countries—both developed markets (DM) and emerging markets (EM)—since the late 1800s. Doing this, we find 93 episodes of stagnation, which Chart 1 splits into three classes. Of that universe, 24% have lasted more than 10 years, 60% have occurred in the post-WWII period and 67% have occurred in an OECD country. The major conclusions are that:

  • There are quite a large number of stagnation episodes in history.
  • The past 60 years have witnessed most of these episodes.
  • Surprisingly, the developed markets—especially Western Europe—have historically been more vulnerable to stagnation than their EM colleagues, even after accounting for differences in the volatility and levels of growth.

Japan’s identified experience (spanning 1992-2003) is representative but not unique. In comparison to these episodes, it is neither the longest-lasting nor the most severe. Table 1 shows the ranking of the top 10 stagnation experiences in these two categories. The longest-lasting experience was that of India, which ran for nearly two decades after the early 1930s. Japan’s experience takes ninth position, with a duration of 12 years. And the shortfall of growth from ‘normal’ does not place Japan in the 10 ‘most stagnant’ stagnations. This suggests it may be useful to broaden the focus to include this larger group of countries.

…More Sluggish than You Would Expect...

By construction, a stagnation period involves sluggish growth. But it is helpful to look at the features that characterise past stagnations in more detail. Chart 2 summarises that comparison for all stagnations: Japan’s experience, serious stagnations and post-WWII stagnations. Although data limits a full description of these episodes, it is straightforward to examine the behaviour of GDP growth, the CPI and stock-market returns over that period (both means and standard deviations). The key features of the ‘typical’ stagnation are as follows:

  • Lower and less volatile growth. Looking at real GDP per capita growth, serious stagnations were periods of growth averaging around 0.5% (Japan’s average of 0.6% was typical). These values are well below the historical averages for the full and post-WWII samples—at 2.0% and 2.8%, respectively. Growth was also substantially less volatile during stagnations (with a standard deviation of about 1%, well below the post-WWII average of 4.0%). These differences are costly. If a country grew at the mean stagnation rate over a period of 10 years, it would end up with a level of income more than 20% lower than it would have been had it grown at the post-WWII average.
  • Low inflation. CPI inflation tells a similar story. Japan’s case is extreme: it recorded an average 0.2% inflation rate during its stagnation period. The average for the other long-lasting stagnations is closer to 5% (median of 4.1%). Of course, these other episodes cover a wide range of time periods when inflation globally was much higher. But inflation clearly tends to be much lower and flatter during stagnations than during other comparable periods. Among other dynamics, this reflects demand pullbacks that may be difficult to correct if they persist for a sufficiently long period of time. It also underscores the importance of policy efforts focused on averting deflation.
  • Rising and sticky unemployment. Although data is more limited, for a subset of stagnation episodes, we found that unemployment rises during stagnations. Both for OECD and non-OECD countries, the unemployment rate generally rises by close to 3ppt on average compared with the three years before stagnation (from 4.6% to 7.3% for the OECD and from 8.1% to 10.9% for the Non-OECD sample).
  • Stagnant home prices. For a subset of stagnation episodes for which data is available, we found that housing price inflation tends to fall from an average of around 2% (1970-2010, across 20 OECD countries) to -0.1% during stagnation. Thus, stagnation periods are typically characterised by housing busts or, at least, by important housing price corrections.
  • Lower stock returns. Average returns in stagnation episodes are modestly positive (around 5% annual returns on average). But they are still below the relevant historical averages. And, without a proportionate fall in volatility, Sharpe ratios tend to be lower than average too. In terms of equity returns, the Japanese experience was significantly worse than the average (with a negative real total return of -3%). In that sense, the broader experience suggests that this may not be entirely representative.

It is also useful to map out the path and not just the averages of stagnation episodes. Chart 3 shows the evolution of a typical stagnation path, starting from 5 years prior to the beginning of an episode. The grey areas represent +/- 1 standard deviations from the average. We highlight three features:

  • The typical stagnation entails a noticeable flattening of the growth trajectory within relatively tight bands.
  • The Japanese experience follows the typical stagnation pattern closely but also shows that stagnations can be worse (in the sense of an even more flattened pattern).
  • The chart illustrates two contrasting examples that are at the core of why we care about these historical experiences: EMs and DMs, anchored at 2008, and projected to 2012 using our own forecasts. While the EM aggregate is on a growth path that could not be further from stagnation, DMs are well within its confidence bands. Both Europe and the US are remarkably close to the typical stagnation trajectory. Unless growth picks up substantially, in the next couple of years, we are likely to have mapped out a 5-year period of stagnant growth.

... And Now More Likely than You Would Like

This raises the question of how likely it is that we enter (or have entered) a period of prolonged stagnation now. The good news is that, in normal circumstances, the probability that a country will fall into stagnation in any given year is relatively low, at 2%. (The probability per time span—that is, any 6-, 8- or 10-year period chosen at random—is 16%, 10% and 6%, respectively.) But that is the unconditional probability. What we want to understand is the conditions that make the kinds of stagnations we have identified more likely. The bad news is that the major developed economies have not been experiencing normal circumstances in the past few years. Moreover, the ways in which the current episode is unusual make the probabilities of stagnation higher than normal too.

Defining the preconditions of stagnation across history is limited by the kinds of data that are available. But a lot can still be said. Our first approach is to match the relative frequency of stagnation episodes and periods of crisis. Our menu of crises depends on data availability, but it is sufficiently rich to give helpful answers. Chart 4 shows that stagnation periods tend to be either preceded or coincident with stock-market crashes more than 50% of the time. They are also related to currency crises and to a lesser extent to banking crises. The correlation with macroeconomic disasters (defined as 10% cumulative contractions in GDP per capita) is lower, and the connection to inflation crises or war is weak. The main signal we extract from this exercise is that market crashes, precisely of the type observed during 2008-2009, are highly informative about the prospects of economic stagnation.

To look at these factors together more formally, we have estimated a probability model that allows us also to generate forecasts (the details on the model are provided in the box on the bottom of this page). These models largely confirm the intuition from the simpler exercise. Stock-market crashes, currency crises, external debt crises and preceding periods of bad growth tend to raise the probability, and probabilities of stagnation are also higher in general for richer countries. That general story is consistent with—though broader than—the work we have done showing that growth recoveries are generally weaker than normal after major housing and banking busts.

We can use these results to see what the model says about the probabilities that a given country has entered or will enter a period of stagnation now. Chart 5 presents the results from our probability model applied to stagnation periods lasting for at least 8 years. While the differences between individual countries and the exact rankings should not be leaned on too heavily, overall the results are striking. In particular, the chances that EM economies will stagnate are much lower than for DMs. For example, all the BRICs are in the lower ranges of our probability estimates, with China, Russia and India at the bottom of the list. In contrast, developed economies populate the right-hand side of the scale, with probabilities in Europe and the US of around 40%. While this suggests that a long period of stagnation is far from a certainty, these probabilities are uncomfortably high relative to normal experience.

More Policy Action Likely to be Needed

History suggests that the prospect of a long period of stagnant growth is a plausible risk and a legitimate concern for the major developed economies. So what can be done to avoid it?

Given the difficulty of finding reliable data over long histories, it is harder to be clear about what was necessary to end stagnations in the past, although we plan to focus more on that question in future research.

And, of course, stagnation—as we have defined it—can be resolved either positively (through recovery) or negatively (through a fresh sharp contraction).

In the current environment, with financial conditions still generally tightening and banking stresses increasing again, our main focus is on policy actions that might stabilise these dynamics. But, as we have highlighted before, constraints on policy—both central banks and beyond—are tighter than they were in 2008. And with monetary policy up against the zero bound, truly unconventional ‘unconventional’ monetary policies may become more central to the debate. Given those constraints, and the starting points for inflation and the unemployment rate, the damage from a prolonged period of stagnant growth will probably be significant—in line with the historical experience we have detailed here. The good news is that policymakers are more aware—thanks to Japan’s experience—of at least a part of that historical experience, if not all that we present here. The bad news is that it is still far from clear whether enough has been done to jolt economic growth upwards and outside the zone where prolonged stagnation is a serious risk.


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Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:42 | 1721879 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture

This is not a "great stagnation".

It is a central bank credit bubble collapse.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:44 | 1721888 swiss chick
swiss chick's picture

they still got ink?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:49 | 1721902 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

quote of the week

"governments dont rule the world. goldman sachs rules the world"

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:47 | 1722098 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

good, maybe they'll die of syphilis like other conquerors

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 19:19 | 1724157 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

+1 clap


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:50 | 1721907 BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

What else should a fiat central bank hoard? And get this... it's digital now. wtf? I'd prefer they DO print the money.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:49 | 1721903 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

Let's call it what it really is: Great Economic Depression II

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:52 | 1721910 BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

It's a thriller really: Great Economic Repression II

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:40 | 1723663 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

Nothing "great" about this one except for bailed out banksters


Chinese calls this "US fcked looooong time time"

Military calls this "SNAFU": Situation Normal, All Fucked Up" OR "FUBAR": Fucked Up Beyond All Repair/Reason/Recognition

Consultants call this "Clusterfuck" : A combination of things going extremely wrong in a short period of time within the same general activity -- caused by stupidity and/or ineptitude.

Middle class call this "3rd world economy"

Illegal immimgrants call this "Amnesty in America"

Republicans call this "whining"

400 richest trust fund babies all grown up call this "Meritocracy, capitalism, free market"

Bin Laden and Al Queda calls this "Thank Alah, We won!"

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:17 | 1722223 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

Let's call it the Long Depression II

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:41 | 1722086 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

stagnation is due to deleveraging.  As any income is used to pull down debt.  Once again, direct job fiscal stimulus can get us out of this.   If the government would set up programs to hire workers, which has a large multiplier effect, more ppl could pay off debts faster, and cheaper, with the accomodative monetary policies.  And this effect would ripple through the economy, and promote economic activity.


We do not have a problem with over-supply.  We have an under-consumption problem due to stagnant wages, and deleveraging.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:53 | 1722387 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Once again, government does not create jobs. Stimulus does not work. If it did, it would have worked already. Stealing from the future to pay for the present and past is unhealthy and doomed to failure. There's no 'multiplier effect'...that's just jibberish spouted by the likes of Krugman to justify expanding central government power under the fake disguise of stimulus.

Central planning, always and forever, operates outside of market forces and therefore always creates imbalances, distortions, and malinvestment of resources. The 'deleveraging' you speak of is a collapsing of the central planning-created economic bubble, a collapse as inevitable as gravity. Any attempt to prevent it is a) doomed to failure and b) probably going to make the ultimate outcome even worse.

Why don't you go through the ZH archives for the past few years, and educate yourself on the reasons why central planning is the problem, not the solution. You think you're saying anything that hasn't been refuted a hundred times already? You're not.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:47 | 1721890 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

'From Great Recession to Great Stagnation'...wait, I thought just Monday they were still saying a recession was maybe possible down the road, IF drastic measures werent we've priced in the GREAT recession and moved down into the Great Stagnation?

I dont even call it stagnation I'd call it the Great Baffle Em With Bullshit, because thats obviously all theyve got.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:49 | 1722102 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

as long as it's great, cause were a great country right

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:46 | 1721892 wang (not verified)
wang's picture

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - New claims for jobless benefits fell sharply last week to their lowest level since April although a Labor Department official said government statisticians had problems seasonally adjusting the data.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:48 | 1721899 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture


Daaammmnnnnnn youuuuuuuu!!!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:51 | 1722116 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

well it is fall

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:47 | 1721896 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

Followed links this morning and was led to (against my better judgment) an article titled "4 Scenarios to Spark a Rally". I clicked just to see if I was missing something. Here's the short version:


1. Europe Solves its Problems

2. Government Action

3. Companies Spend Their Cash

4. Strong Corporate Earnings


So I figured this is good news. If Smart Money can only figure out 4 scenarios that will lead to a rally, and all 4 of them are crap, then there's no rally coming. That's practically as good as good as a rally, right?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:49 | 1721904 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

LOL its even worse than the Underpant Gnome corporate business model! 

'Govt action'? LOL!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 19:28 | 1724187 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

5. Flying Saucer Full of Space Cash


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:48 | 1721901 BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:50 | 1721905 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

Terrorist Police Information:

  1. As we watched your officers kettle innocent women, we observed you barberically pepper spray wildly into the group of kettled women.  We were shocked and disgusted by your behavior.  You know who the innocent women were, now they will have the chance to know who you are.  Before you commit atrocities against innocent people, think twice. WE ARE WATCHING!!! Expect Us!
  3. ----------------------TARGET
  5. Anthony Bologna D0x
  6. NYPD Deputy Inspector
  7. Patrol Boro Manhattan South - 212-477-6181
  9. -WAS Commanding Officer of the First Precinct for the past 5 years
  10. ----------------------Personal
  12. -Possible phone number: (518) 989-9051
  14. ----------------------Reason for D0x'ing
  19. ----------------------Relatives
  21. Anthony Linda Bologna
  22. Anthony V Bologna
  23. Anthony Jennings Bologna
  24. Linda S Bologna (family)
  25. Dana M Bologna (family)
  26. Jenna Angelina Bologna (family)
  27. J Bologna (family)
  28. Angelina Bologna (family)
  29. Joanne A Bologna (family)
  30. Anthony C Bologna (family)
  32. ----------------------Schools
  34. St. Paul's High School (1970-1974)
  36. ----------------------Last Known Addresses
  38. 5 Sawyer Ave, Unit A, Staten Island, NY, US

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:03 | 1721948 Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

You might possibly be insane...  I think your tin-foil hat may be on too tight...

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:08 | 1721971 pelican
Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:15 | 1722216 nyse
nyse's picture

Wow. Here, email a banker:

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:34 | 1722054 nhr215
nhr215's picture

douchebag, pepperspraying a group of protestors does not make one a "terrorist" its makes one an "asshole." If this is the biggest injustice that you can find int he world and posting this guy's family tree is your biggest contribution to righting it, you need to get out more....

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:53 | 1722124 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

If you had half a brain you would know that it makes one GUILTY OF FELONOUS ASSAULT on multiple counts plus an array of other CRIMES, all COMMITED by a person who swore to protect and defend NOT harass and injure. Police officers should be held to a HIGHER standard, therefore this 'person' should have not only the book thrown at him, but the entire library.  Not only is the guy an asshole, he is a FELONOUS TRAITOR TERRORIST PIG!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 13:47 | 1722647 HCSKnight
HCSKnight's picture

You son are an idiot who lies.

I watched the video.  The "kids", adults really - all looked 18 or older, were not being peaceful.  They weren't rioting, but they weren't being peaceful or respectful of the law.

Granted the cop looked like he sprayed when too close.  But not knowing the effective control range or potency of the spray, or how much of a drama queen the girl is, I'd say such are reasonable, wise and mature questions.  Based on your characterization, you clearly have none of those character traits.

Btw, just because the law books state something to be, and define something in a certain way, doesnt make it the truth.  History is filled with evil laws of men that are filled with falsehood and lies.  The "right to an abortion" being one such law.  It's but a step away from that law to someone like you being labeled a terrorist based upon your words, and thrown in prison.  If you doubt such consider what is done in Germany if one speaks incorrectly about the Holocaust?

The fact is son, you are at best an immature drama queen.  There's hope for you though....but probably not until we see a minor degree of testosterone in the form of a non-bambi avatar.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:03 | 1722170 Waffen
Waffen's picture

Being one of the sherrifs men does not make one immune from his immoral actions. BTW he isnt just being an asshole, he is an asshole with a badge which is 10x  worse.


"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:53 | 1722381 Think for yourself
Think for yourself's picture

This is how anonymous crowdsources justice. The info about the person will be found and distributed, while justice-conscious people taking the next steps into their hands. Shame him in the eyes of his parents, of his wife, of his kids, his colleagues.
"Oh, right, I know your father! He's that corrupt cop who pepper sprays peacefully protesting women right in the face! Have you ever tried telling him to lay down the steroids? You might want to have a wet bandana and milk at the ready, though, in case he maces you..."

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:52 | 1721912 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Whats all the hubbub...the answer is simple I thought, just PRINT!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:00 | 1721936 BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

Please, Private Bankers, could we have some more of our national currency? As a credit this time? no?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:20 | 1722017 Mike2756
Mike2756's picture

The Bernank needs to spend more time on a treadmill to figure it out, faster is not better.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 10:59 | 1721932 Quadlet
Quadlet's picture

QE1 announced: March 18 09 - EURUSD 1.2662

QE2 announced: Aug 27 10 - EURUSD 1.2731

QE3 announced: ? - ?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:01 | 1721939 BrocilyBeef
BrocilyBeef's picture

QE3 announced: Oct 27 11 - EURUSD 1.2411

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:20 | 1722013 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Bingo. Yes, look to lower Euro for when QE3 shall commence.   My Blog


China will tolerate either a low USD or low Euro, but not both. The EU crises and lower Euro is messing up the international currency arrangements. Bernanke will be forced to commence QE3 to take USD lower than the beat down Euro to prevent China re-peg to USD. I leave it to others such as "Brocoli" to speculate what the Euro price point shall be.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 14:00 | 1722703 Quadlet
Quadlet's picture

If you want to see QE3 ahead of the market, watch the euro.

Finally, it is not quite true there are no winners in a currency war. There is always one winner – gold.

Love it.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:00 | 1721933 cabtrom
cabtrom's picture

"I like this world"
Go to hell
"been there"

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:00 | 1721937 b_thunder
b_thunder's picture

It's not so bad to have 0.5%-1% avg. income growth while "CPI" is clsoe to zero, liek in Japan.  Especially if this 1% growth is equally distributed among the pupulation.

Well, The Bernank will make damn sure the inflation will be much, mich higher,  and together with the bough-by-the-banks govrnment they will make sure that the entire 1% will go to the top 0.01% of "job creators"


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:01 | 1721941 Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

Typical ZeroHedge flip-flop...  We hate Goldman Sachs unless they print something we like!  Tyler, I guess your were first against it before you were for it... 

Nothing like taking a man's (or men, or whomever) word who hides behind an alias...

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:08 | 1721972 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Goldman was wrong in 2010 and was called out. They are wrong again as the situation is far, far worse than mere stagnation. Although speaking of aliases, oh Grand Vizier, you are absolutely right.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:43 | 1722019 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

The Squid always refers to a Higher Truth

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:53 | 1722120 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I don't know, only a criminal would lie that much...

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:19 | 1722015 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

Quite the contrary.  Zero Hedge has been consistant and clear in its thousands of comments on central banking, crony capitalism, and the direction of this sleigh ride to Hell.  Capitulation by Goldman is newsworthy, and is definitely not evidence of flip-flopping.

As an aside, I don't agree with all of the conclusions of the article.  I view the GS report as a set up, telling everyone we are going to limp along for the forseeable future when in fact, the Boyz know the jig is up on Monday.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:56 | 1722137 Au Shucks
Au Shucks's picture

Why Monday?  Start of new fiscal US year? Something else?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 13:26 | 1722563 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

From Rosh Hashanah to Yom Kippur...

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:02 | 1721944 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Goldman got it all wrong last year,  why should anyone believe they got it right now?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:05 | 1721955 Grand Vizier
Grand Vizier's picture

I don't understand Zero-Hedgers, if Goldman is bearish and they are the devil, doesn't that mean we should be bullish?  Does this explain the gold action???

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:18 | 1722007 bonddude
bonddude's picture

Will the conundrums ever cease?

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:22 | 1722025 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

No comment.  If anyone discusses the facts in a rational manner, they leave themselves open for you to cherry pick and call them a flip-flopper.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:01 | 1722149 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

even lying scumbags have to adjust their position when the evidence is overwhelming.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:06 | 1721959 gwar5
gwar5's picture

No surprise. Despite being public happy-talkers, this is the scenario that both Larry Summers and Joseph Stiglitz said privately was going to happen way back in Spring 2009 --  Moribund economy and 10 pct unemployment for years to come. These guys could all teach the Eurotopians a thing or two about lying.

And they punked that poor little Geithner boy by making him go to China to be the one to get laughed at, without even telling Timmy to comb that wire-mesh hair of his first. 

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:08 | 1721973 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

They appear to be trying to salvage at least a shred of credibility before the wheels come off on Monday.  Oct. is going to be brutal.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:08 | 1721976 cabtrom
cabtrom's picture

I'm investing aaaalll my money into lies. Is there a company called lies??

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:20 | 1722020 Quadlet
Quadlet's picture

All of them.  Take your pick.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:58 | 1722148 Au Shucks
Au Shucks's picture

Consider US Treasuries and SLV.. both excellent vehicles for those interested in tracking the price, make that value, of lies

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:11 | 1721986 DollarDive
DollarDive's picture


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:13 | 1721990 cabtrom
cabtrom's picture

Wake up!

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:13 | 1721992 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

I am starting to enjoy all the professional fascist-wannabe haters in here.

ZH has really filed up with water carriers for all creatures that never question the engineered faux-collapse of everyone's economy.

I guess the employees at GE, GS, SEIU, FRB and Attack Watch have to fill their lunch break with more petty disinformation.  Ms. Garofalo is that you?  If you want back into the club, just say something negative about Palestine.

Somehow, nobody thinks that performing $2/hr counter-opposition blogging with 10 different alias is going to get you a ticket to the Singularity. 

Thank you for your service. 

Here are some Food Stamps.


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:22 | 1722014 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

i have negative thoughts about goldman sachs sometimes. these people do god's work:

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:36 | 1722067 nantucket
nantucket's picture

great strategy, your firm has multiple market/economic pundits and each offers a different outlook....whichever one eventually happens, you point to the report that was accurate and claim your firm gave a prescient outlook (as always)....while conveniently ignoring the other reports that turned out to be poopoo caca (that's a technical term).

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:38 | 1722076 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Keiser Report: The Greek Depression (E190)

Uploaded by on Sep 29, 2011

This week Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, ask why wallstreet protesters are maced in the face for merely walking on the sidewalk while JP Morgan's CEO can throw a tirade in the face of regulators and a central banker without being pepper-sprayed. They ask why Vince Cable doesn't pack some pepper spray.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:50 | 1722108 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Pure pablum. 

Only by the inept and corrupted pronouncements of the BLS statisticians who can't find the men's room is stagnation a possible vector.  The building is crumbling at the bottom, not the top.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:05 | 1722182 Alex Kintner
Alex Kintner's picture

"The future isn't what it used to be." -- George Carlin

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:13 | 1722206 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture


Come and get it while it's not hot.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 12:37 | 1722300 web bot
web bot's picture

There is really only 1 book that you need to read to understand what is happening - The Roaring 2000s.

Dent's insights are earthshaking. Demographics drive consumption (housing prices... aka wealth effect... baby boomer retirement to drive further housing collapse... bleeding of pension). It explains the ebb and flow of wealth in our age.

North America is on the decline into a decade-long depression.

Thu, 09/29/2011 - 13:18 | 1722516 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

 a year ago, with much pomp and circumstance, Goldman’s economic team proclaimed its multi-year long bearish outlook on the economy over

I would like to see a policy which taxes any economist or analyst $1,000 whenever they publicly announce a forecast doesn’t come true within 90 days (that’s the long term by Wall Street standards). We could balance the national budget in a year with that one.


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 13:19 | 1722521 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

 a year ago, with much pomp and circumstance, Goldman’s economic team proclaimed its multi-year long bearish outlook on the economy over

I would like to see a policy which taxes any economist or analyst $1,000 whenever they publicly announce a forecast doesn’t come true within 90 days (that’s the long term by Wall Street standards). We could balance the national budget in a year with that one.


Thu, 09/29/2011 - 16:57 | 1723739 Caveman93
Caveman93's picture

Looks like You Tube was hacked..see below.


500 Internal Server Error

Sorry, something went wrong.

A team of highly trained monkeys has been dispatched to deal with this situation.

If you see them, show them this information:

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OK, never mind...was a legit error. Maaybe we'll see this someday when we log into our eTrade account one day...:/


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