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Goldman's 10 Unanswered Questions On The European Bail Out And The Revised EFSF

Tyler Durden's picture


Buying stocks with the confidence that all has been resolved and all open questions have been answered? Or just doing it because everyone else is doing it, and there is "career risk" for those who actually sit to think what the events over the past 24 hours mean? It's ok if it is the latter: everyone else is in the same boat. After all the whole purpose of today's rally is to get everyone exposed the same way, so when it all crashes again, nobody can be singled out for having been contrarian. Why are we so sure? Because when even Goldman Sachs has at least 10 outstanding questions on not only the structure of the European bailout, but the layout of the revised EFSF, it is safe to assume that few have the answers (which, incidentally, don't exist). So in between chasing VWAP ever higher, it may be worthwhile to read these 10 questions which nobody has the definitive answer to. At least not yet. And whose answer is assumed will be a satisfactory one...

From Goldman Sachs

Last night’s announcement following the EU and Euro area summits was broadly in line with expectations. While progress in key areas was made, specific details are yet to be determined and further concrete measures are needed to address the Euro area’s economic challenges in a lasting way. With the PMIs now suggesting a Q4 GDP contraction, successful implementation of the summit agreement is needed to get the Euro area recovery back on track.

Our expectations leading up to the summit on Greece were largely met, with the announcement of a 50% haircut on Greek privately held sovereign debt within the PSI framework. So was the decision to recapitalise European banks.

The summit produced a positive surprise with the agreement to set up an SPV alongside the EFSF, as well as in proposing to have public guarantees to support bank term funding.

On the negative side, implementation risks surround some of the summit’s main conclusions. In particular, there are few details on how the EFSF will be leveraged. What we do know is that the leverage will be in the order of four to five times, and that it will occur through an SPV.
This week’s focus answers some key questions on the revamped EFSF, including its options for leverage. While the July 21 agreement has now been ratified, the details of the measures proposed last night have yet to be revealed, making the potential ‘firepower’ of the EFSF uncertain. In part as a result, we continue to expect the ECB to continue to backstop the Euro area financial system and keep the SMP active to the extent it is needed.

Euro-zone governments decided this Thursday to amend the EFSF through additional measures that will increase its scope to contain the Euro-zone debt crisis. How effective these measures will ultimately prove to be, and whether sufficient lending capacity can be raised to cover Italy also, remains unclear at this point. Given these uncertainties, we remain of the view that the ECB will continue to act as a final backstop for the financial system. Following the recent ratification of the July 21 agreement and the latest announcement of measures to leverage the EFSF, we address some key questions on the revamped EFSF in a Q&A format.

1. What is the EFSF, how big are its guarantees and who is liable?

The EFSF was set up in May 2010 to provide temporary financial assistance to Euro-zone countries facing difficulties accessing funding in the debt market due to “exceptional circumstances beyond such euro-area Member States’ control”. By providing this support, the EFSF aims to “safeguard the financial stability of the euro-area”. The EFSF is a temporary facility and, under current plans, will be replaced by the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) by July 2013. The EFSF was set up to relieve the ECB of the burden of purchasing sovereign debt through its Securities Markets Programme (SMP).

Each country’s share of the EFSF’s capital guarantees is determined by the ECB’s capital subscription key (the capital share of non-EMU member countries is ignored). Table 1 shows each country’s guarantee, incorporating the size increase agreed at the July 21 EU summit. The EFSF funds itself through the issuance of bonds backed by these guarantees, which are “irrevocable and unconditional”.

These are joint (but not several) guarantees for an amount up to the maximum guaranteed by each country. This means that each country is never liable for more than the maximum amount it has pledged. As an example, if the EFSF were to face losses on loans of, say, €100bn, Germany would, for example, guarantee all of the €100bn in the event all other countries were unable to honour their guarantees (not just €27bn of the €100bn, which would be Germany’s relative share in the EFSF guarantees). If the EFSF were facing loan write-downs of €300bn, and no other country were able to honour their guarantee, Germany would only be liable for its maximum pledge, €211bn.

2. What is the EFSF’s actual lending capacity and what happens if a country ‘steps out’?

While the amount of guarantees stands at around €780bn, the actual lending capacity of the EFSF is about €440bn. This is because in order to obtain the highest possible rating from rating agencies the amount of money spent is limited to the amount of guarantees given by AAA-rated countries.

In the event a country requires financial support from the EFSF, it can ask the other countries to “suspend its commitment to provide further Guarantees”, making it a ‘stepping-out guarantor’. Greece, Ireland and Portugal are already deemed ‘stepping-out guarantors’. The relative contributing share of the remaining countries is then adjusted accordingly, but the absolute amount of guarantees of each country remains unchanged. The overall size of EFSF guarantees decreases accordingly from the €780bn figure (and is about €726bn when Greece, Ireland and Portugal’s guarantees are deducted). However, unless the country seeking financial assistance is AAA-rated, the ‘effective’ capacity remains unchanged at €440bn.

3. What are the new powers of the EFSF following ratification of the July 21 agreement?

The EU government decided on July 21 to increase the “effectiveness” and “flexibility” of the EFSF, thereby allowing it to become active outside a specific loan facility agreement (i.e., a multi-year programme). This additional financial help can be provided under the so-called Financial Assistance Facility Agreements. The financial assistance can be used to recapitalise banks (although via a loan to a government rather than directly), and purchase government debt in the primary or secondary market, based on an analysis of the ECB.

The support provided under the Financial Assistance Agreements will still be conditional (although different from a full multi-year programme such as those to which Greece, Ireland and Portugal are subject), and the country requesting the help will have to enter into a memoranda of understanding (MoU) with the European Commission (in liaison with the ECB and the IMF). For those countries already covered by a programme (Greece, Ireland and Portugal), no new MoU need be negotiated and provisions to recapitalise banks are already included in their programmes.

4. How are EFSF decisions taken and what role do parliaments play?

All relevant decisions at the EFSF are taken by the board of directors. Each country will have one representative on the board—usually its finance minister. The board has to approve unanimously any decision that concerns any funding activity of the EFSF, as well as any change to the EFSF’s framework agreement. This includes any decision to intervene in debt markets.

In some cases, the board member will need the approval of parliament before casting his/her vote on the EFSF board. In Germany, for example, the Bundestag needs to be involved in any relevant decision. This can mean either that the approval of the budget committee is needed, or a full vote of the whole parliament.

5. What is the scope for extending an EFSF loan programme to Italy and Spain?

Of the €440bn in actual lending capacity, around €119bn have already been pledged (of which around €9bn has been disbursed, Table 2) to Greece (via its second bailout package), Ireland and Portugal, along with money coming from the IMF and the EFSM. While the size of the second Greek programme may still change, this means that about €320bn remain to finance other loan programmes, bank recapitalisations or government bond purchases.

If a similar loan programme to those agreed with Ireland and Portugal (which takes those countries out of the market for around three years) were to be extended to Italy and Spain, more than an additional €1trn in loans would be needed (Italy’s financing needs up to and including 2014 are about €650bn, while the equivalent amount for Spain is around €450bn). While the IMF would likely provide an additional 50% to the European commitments, the combined funds would still only amount to around half of the requirement, leaving no available funds for bank recapitalisations, for example.

6. How will the EFSF be ‘leveraged’?

Governments decided earlier today to “maximise the available resources” of the EFSF by introducing two different schemes that would allow the available guarantees to be leveraged, thereby increasing the overall amount of debt issuance that can be supported by the EFSF. Many of the concrete details are lacking, but the early announcement states that both schemes could be levered in the order of four or five times.

The first scheme would provide insurance for bond investors, such that the EFSF will take on a certain amount of the losses that investors would face in the event of a sovereign default. The insurance would apply to newly issued debt. Assuming, for example, that some €250bn of actual lending capacity is available, an insurance of 20% (increasing the EFSF funds’ scope fivefold) would imply that €1.25trn of peripheral debt issuance could be supported through this scheme. This would be sufficient to cover debt newly issued by Italy and Spain until the end of 2014. While insuring only newly issued debt would result in a two-tier market, if both Italy and Spain are perceived as fundamentally solvent (as we have previously argued), and the current high spreads in their secondary sovereign debt markets mainly reflect roll-over concerns, insuring newly issued debt should mitigate this concern, thus lowering the credit risk on currently outstanding debt.

The second scheme provides for the setting-up of a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) to invest in peripheral sovereign debt. The SVP will be funded through investments by the EFSF in combination with public and private financial institutions (e.g., sovereign wealth funds and the IMF). In order to make investing in the SPV attractive for investors, the EFSF would again be first in line in the event of a sovereign default.
The key implication of this leverage is that the EFSF would use more of its funds. While the current loan arrangements would yield some kind of recovery rate for the EFSF in the event of a programme-country default, the ‘leveraged’ EFSF would likely have a recovery value of its claims at close to zero. This makes the EFSF more risky for the guarantee countries, but extends the scope of the facility.

Yesterday’s summit did not specify the size of the insurance to be provided to investors, although the scope of the leverage suggests it would be around 20%-30%. While a higher insurance rate would make investing in newly issued debt by insured countries more attractive, it would also narrow the scope of the EFSF. It is likely that a critical level of the insurance percentage exists at which the demand for insured debt would be material. This critical level would likely be inversely related to a recovery rate of this debt. The lower degree of ‘leverage’ of insuring, say, 40% of newly issued debt rather than 20%, for example, could be countered by attracting more private investments through the SPV. And a smaller effective 40% insurance scheme would be preferable to a larger, but ineffective, 20% insurance scheme.

7. Will there be enough buyers for credit enhanced peripheral debt?

This remains to be seen and the effective appetite of investors will depend on several variables, not just the size of the insurance provided. We mention here just one example of potential practical problems: for some investors, the credit enhancement provided by the EFSF implies that the underlying sovereign debt will become a credit derivative from a regulatory point of view. However, the regulatory guidelines with respect to credit derivatives make it more difficult for potential investors to allocate capital towards these instruments. While this might only be a minor factor, it nonetheless exemplifies the difficulties in estimating ex ante the demand for these credit-enhanced bonds.

8. What are the implications of a leveraged EFSF for government ratings?

While the insurance scheme does not change the overall amount of guarantees provided, it does change the risk profile of these guarantees, given the likely smaller recovery value. Consequently, the increased credit risk will weigh on the underlying credit rating of guarantor countries. Recent statements suggest that rating agencies will take a fresh look at sovereign ratings once all the details are available.
While a downgrade of any of the AAA-rated countries is anything but a given, this nonetheless poses a risk to the whole scheme. A potential downgrade of France, for example, would reduce—all else equal—the effective lending capacity by France’s share of EFSF guarantees.

9. What other options exist to increase the EFSF’s lending capacity?

At least in theory, there are several other ways to increase the lending capacity of the EFSF even further if this should become necessary:

  • More guarantees. Countries could be asked to increase the size of the guarantees they provide to the EFSF. Such an increase in guarantees would, however, be politically very difficult. Moreover, an increase in the implicit guarantees would weigh on the rating of guarantor countries.
  • Guaranteeing maximum interest rate. The EFSF could guarantee countries a maximum interest rate level that they would need to pay on newly issued debt. Such a scheme would pay investors the market interest rate but the respective peripheral government would need to pay only the lower guaranteed yield. This would imply that the debt dynamics of that country would, at least as far as interest payments are concerned, be decoupled from market movements.
  • A lower EFSF rating. The actual lending capacity could be increased by accepting a lower rating for EFSF bonds. A lower rating would imply that the guarantees provided by most the non-AAA-rated countries would also become ‘effective’ as a backstop for EFSF bonds. However, a reduced rating would imply higher funding cost for the EFSF, thus raising the interest rate charged to programme countries and reducing the overall benefit of the programme.

Non-AAA-rated countries are the most likely recipients of EFSF funds. In the event Italy and Spain were in need of funds, this would result in a reduction in the overall size of the EFSF of around 30%, thus significantly reducing the benefit of using non-AAA-rated guarantees.

•  Bank licence and ECB funding. Providing the EFSF with a bank licence and allowing it to repo its bond purchases at the ECB would increase the size of the EFSF’s lending capacity significantly. In fact, a banking licence would not be very different from the ECB’s current SMP, implying—at least in theory—a non-inflationary lending capacity that could easily cover all of the periphery for many years.

While funding the EFSF through the ECB would certainly be an effective way to end all questions about the EFSF lending capacity, the ECB has rejected this idea and Euro-zone governments have decided, at least for the time being, not to pursue this route further.

10. Will the ECB continue to backstop the financial system?

Whether the increase in the EFSF’s indirect lending capacity will lead to a stabilisation of the situation depends on several factors, and there is no guarantee that the revamped EFSF will instil sufficient confidence among investors. We therefore think it will be crucial for the ECB to continue to play its role as fall-back option in order to prevent a systemic event. The expanded EFSF is now the first line of defence, but its success also depends on the implicit understanding that the ECB act as a final backstop for the financial system through its various non-conventional measures. We continue to think that the ECB will remain active in containing financial market uncertainty, in particular by remaining active in the bond market through the SMP (although the size of its interventions may vary).


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Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:45 | 1818167 FunkyMonkeyBoy
FunkyMonkeyBoy's picture

So people are actually buying stocks is the reason for the move up now?

I thought the ZH story for since the start of October was that this was simply a short-covering rally on fumes?... that was going to be sell-the-news event?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:56 | 1818177 sqz
sqz's picture

Will the ECB continue to backstop the financial system?

We therefore think it will be crucial for the ECB to continue to play its role as fall-back option in order to prevent a systemic event...We continue to think that the ECB will remain active in containing financial market uncertainty, in particular by remaining active in the bond market through the SMP (although the size of its interventions may vary).

And so Goldman reveals its hand... For as far as anyone else understands, the whole point of the EFSF and the ESM is as a replacement for the temporary SMP purchases from the ECB.

So, GS saying S&P500 to 1360, go go go!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:08 | 1818269 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

Exactly. Germans insisted when they voted this week that ECB should stop the SMP once the new monster is ready to go. But all the banks rely on the central banks to continue their monetization schemes. I think ECB will continue because even a child can see that the emperor has no clothes. And at some point Germany will say no and either force ECB to stop or leave the euro.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 20:37 | 1819302 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"bailouts are to ______ what military bases were to ________ during the Cold War." Insert answer atop line. And do not cheat this time either--and that includes you Madoff!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:52 | 1818199 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

$1.5Trillion is a lot of NEW currency units to float a tiny world market. I tell short sellers and put buyers they are fighting an overwhelming tide of dollars...Be warned, the German stock market rallied into hyperinflation in the 40's.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:54 | 1818207 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

Zero Hedge has been warning, and specifically last Friday, that the unending EURUSD short level will force a massive squeeze when it unwinds. The only driver of the market is the Euro, and today was have moved 350 pips since the bailout announcement. What you should be asking is why does the market trade tick for pip with the EURUSD? Simple: because all USD- denominated stocks are doing is preserving their value relative to dollar devaluation. The S&P when expressed in the dollars YTD is down 2%.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:59 | 1818234 kahunabear
kahunabear's picture

Hmm, doesn't feel down today. I must not be properly hedged.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 16:21 | 1818570 rocker
rocker's picture

If you bought Gold, Silver, Platinum, and Palladium you would have been perfectly hedged.

My largest purchase was three years ago and then two years ago. (Also have Silver from 10 years ago).  

Did not get enough of a pull back this year for me. It was close, but I waited too long.

Tyler and Zero Hedge Rock. We share many of the same thoughts. 

The best part is it still gets news nobody else will tell you.

Thanks for what you do Tyler and Crew.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 16:45 | 1818651 Börjesson
Börjesson's picture

Gold is also slightly down today, if you discount the dollar devaluation.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 20:57 | 1819363 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

yeah but that wasn't TD's answer. The question is valid and so is this answer. Of course truth be told "mo mo monkey's" come in many forms and we are not least i am not here--- because i want to Seek ALFpha. I'm here for a discussion about money in its purest form--and i ain't talkin' gold since as we all know "the opposite of a hedge is leverage" and not as business school teaches us a "counter party." we can "hedge" using gold (the only hedge actually--as we all now know from Europe and all that "sanctity of contract" bullshit that Wall Street carts out)--but you ain't "levering" anything using gold (now THAT'S sanctity of contract. With GOD.) That guy's name was Rockefeller--and he was a debt market unto himself. In those days only the government had debt...and they came to New York to get money. Now "it's the other way around." Hmmmm. I wonder why that is.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:01 | 1818243 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

I wish I had my swissies +2.5% back but I take comfort in that they moved into Aussie. +3%

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:04 | 1818254 knukles
knukles's picture

YTD comparative dollar terms:

DJI     +  5.4%
PHYS  + 22.9%


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:12 | 1818287 acabrer
acabrer's picture

oh you did...come on tyler don't be cheap with your crowd following ,which are more than likely broke or trying to cover. I for one quit taking this place serious 9 months ago, my account thanks me for it. you are pointing out ONE article.....ONE. very cheap and so is this place.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:13 | 1818289 The Axe
The Axe's picture

And Bonds Tyler?   yields exploding...   recession off maybe?   

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:14 | 1818290 mynhair
mynhair's picture

My ? is how long can this squeeze last?

Dying to flame out on TZA again.....

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:26 | 1818342 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

So, now that the news is almost here, it's almost time to sell.  Would have been dumb to sell before, no?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 18:06 | 1818865 Fíréan
Fíréan's picture



Thu, 10/27/2011 - 21:01 | 1819377 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

they lied. they also helped others lie. but it was was was because they ran things. "kinda ran things." it gets complicated...perhaps if it was put to music that would help?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:46 | 1818178 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

many more simple questions.

if greek debt can be magically cut in half with a government pronouncement why would anyone with real capital lend

is cds obsolete

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:15 | 1818294 broke433
broke433's picture

schiff is a deuch, ignore his ass

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:48 | 1818186 PaperBear
PaperBear's picture

Youtube Bulletin by 91177info   (31 minutes ago)

RIP Scott Olsen No f**king way.
Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:14 | 1818247 Hansel
Hansel's picture

Not that I don't think it is possible --a fractured skull will do that-- but I'd like to see confirmation.

edit: The twitterverse only says he has lapsed into a coma.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:35 | 1818380 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Anonymous • Send a Get Well Card to : U.S.M.C. Scott Olson, Highland Hospital, 1411 East 31st Street, Oakland, CA 94602


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 19:56 | 1819202 Mesquite
Mesquite's picture

Medically induced...They do that sometimes, to save the patient..!!!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:49 | 1818193 devo
devo's picture

I thought Goldman printed all lies/garbage. Is that only true when it's bullish? I mean, why should we care what Goldman says about the plan?

I know the plan is a failure because of the intent of the people who drafted it. Whether I buy stocks or not depends on if they're cheap relative to other variable. Right now they are extremely overbought. This bailout has been "priced in" for months. The suckers are buying right now.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:55 | 1818212 Tyler Durden
Tyler Durden's picture

How are questions bullish? And Goldman is called out when it is wrong, not when it is bullish.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:56 | 1818218 knukles
knukles's picture

Goldman's always bullish.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:18 | 1818314 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

Not so. Goldman is bullish when they have built their long positions, and then turn bearish when they've sold and established short positions. Remember $200 oil in 2008? Goldman and Vitol worked that one like a sewing machine. Made huge money on the way to $147, and even bigger gains on the way back down to $35.


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 21:17 | 1819415 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"smartest men in the room"...and willing to say so in public. Amazingly even before Congress itself--a direct line right to you and me. The first part sounds familiar. The ending...not so much. Imagine a hearing on "un-American activities" in this day and age. Then it was the Korean War. Now "it's a war on terror." I've gone in many ways "pretty much everywhere"...but that's one place i'm uncertain if i would go. But when I see men like Senator McCain or Senator Levin of Michigan I know without a shadow of a doubt they stand with us and fight for what we believe in. Often times the hardest fight is to fight for what you believe in and not what others want or need. Doing so means you will be tortured...and i mean that literally. You will will will die. And there are men who exist to make sure you know "those three" are their raison de etre. That's their idea of a "welcome home."

Fri, 10/28/2011 - 00:17 | 1819859 Jones79
Jones79's picture

i am surprised that people on here know vitol.  they are expansive and rarely in the news. 

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:50 | 1818195 Irish66
Irish66's picture

Leverage? 50 to 1?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:57 | 1818197 Mercury
Mercury's picture

11. What’s the deal with sovereign CDS?

So, is CDS now just another componant of Farcism and the reality distortion field that surrounds the individual’s relationship to the state in the “free world” ??

Or is it simply the case that CDS buyers/holders are just now waking up to the fact that they are and always have been beholden to a reality that is whatever some Credit Event Determination Committee says it is.

I’ve never been much of a CDS fan as it has always seemed to me that too many fallible human beings and institutions (but no central clearing authority) stand between you and your money when what you’re insuring against actually happens.


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:02 | 1818246 semperfi
semperfi's picture

here's what CDS is :

- Credit Default Suckers
- Credit Default Swindle

A fool and his money are soon parted

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:51 | 1818198 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

look at the candle on $tyx,  TBT

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:54 | 1818210 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

QE3 coming soon.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:55 | 1818213 NOTW777
NOTW777's picture

how are increasing interest rates and soaring energy prices bullish for recovery in debt ridden societies?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:55 | 1818214 knukles
knukles's picture

And so it's all good, right?
Like my favorite androgenous FrauMeister, Angie of the Snow White Untouched Upper Inner Thighs said the othr day on the telly:

"Zair R menee detailz zat hav to B verket out, like how eet vill verk.

I'm falling in love all over again :)
Or am I just glad to see her!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:55 | 1818215 Hansel
Hansel's picture

It's funny that people think a European deal was announced today.  It was the same damn announcement they've been making all along.  "Details to follow."

That said, come on S&P 1300 by the close!  Get those margin calls out, cover those shorts!  LOL.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:08 | 1818266 junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

A lot of shorts are going to be brown

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:57 | 1818222's picture

When the Sovereign Nation of Goldmanistan has questions you best pay attention.  Also, regarding the GDP numbers....I spent about 3k more last month then I wanted to because I was robbed at two of my properties....had to repurchase my companies tools and we bought a video camera system.....that's some real high quality GDP BABY!!!..and we didn't call the Police because in the 10 times I have called the cops in the last decade we did not have one item recovered....

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:57 | 1818226 The Axe
The Axe's picture

No need for Q3   now.......craziest 2 day rally ever.....

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:04 | 1818253 Deadpool
Deadpool's picture

wrong. you need to watch the 10year rate. today's euphoria is about Europe, soon the lenses will turn to America and the super-duper debt committee if CA, NY or IL don't default first.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 14:59 | 1818236 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

When shorts totally capitulate it will be time to worry about bad news.

People are tired of bad news and will ignore it for now.

Party on.
Emerging markets are hot! So are emerging chics.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:05 | 1818251 peekcrackers
peekcrackers's picture

well the only other investment that I can come up with,  going by what Tyler Durden posted , would be Au Ag in hand!  i cant see any other counter party risk to PMs Phys , looks like the best wat to hedge against Hyper or deflation

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:04 | 1818252 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Guess there is no such thing as 'overbought' when hot money is involved.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:05 | 1818255 gwar5
gwar5's picture

Things that make you go Hmmm.....

11. Why hasn't Goldman Sachs just cooked the ECB books for them already to show they have 2.5 Trillion?


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:09 | 1818274 SeverinSlade
SeverinSlade's picture

GS vaguely asks this question but when we get an answer (likely at the G20 meeting) then I think that's when the SHTF again for equities.

"8. What are the implications of a leveraged EFSF for government ratings?"

My prediction:

G20 Summit announces details for today's announcement which quickly leads to a downgrade of France leading to the EFSF losing substantial firepower.  Dollar strengthens as the Euro falls.  Bernanke is then free to announce QE3 which then leads to the ECB launching it's own money printing scheme.


Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:21 | 1818329 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Definately an important answer and we will find out soon enough. Another thing to bear in mind is what effect further QE has on the credit rating in the US. The Fed already levered at 53:1 means there is not a whole lot of leg room to do much more buying. We shall see son if Bernanke is still in a box.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:11 | 1818282 quacker
quacker's picture

Why doesn't Goldman just say what it really wants - the whole damn thing backed by US dollars.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:11 | 1818284 Eurodollar
Eurodollar's picture

What a day, what a last couple of weeks. The can was kicked til after important elections as I pointed out in one of my earlier posts on here. I am now pondering selling my buy the politicall will to save face pre elections portfolio :) .. But, wow. The EU politicans put up a show, impressive I must say. Yes, there are questions remaining. Yes, there is lots of uncertainty. The future always is. Especially when dealing with a world wide ponzi look alike that some day will fall or perhaps be inflated away with racing speed. That is if we can't come up with a good way to export it to China or the santas in the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund. However, one can not underestimate the will of the European thinkers socialist or not. Their experiment is precious and they are willing to go all-in need be. Last night was a good night for them. I am sure they had some good whiskey and enjoyed some excellent Berlusconi bolognese. Pasta aside, they did in fact show the world that they can unite when their back is up against the wall. If that fails, they can always print. Enjoy life a little! and please buy my shares that I am dumping tomorrow :)

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:15 | 1818299 loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Given the 50% haircut on Greek crap, why would any of the other PIIGS not go for that too?  Further, would YOU buy any of the new debt?  BAH!!  So the trash that is US bonds now competes with he trash of Euro bonds?  Talk about your "Fecal Festival"... I will stick with gold for a bit longer...

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:15 | 1818300 eatthebanksters
eatthebanksters's picture

I work hard and save.  I enjoy a nice but not extravagant lifestyle. I have a decent balance sheet and my income exceeds my expenses so I qualify for a high dollar amount low interest rate loan.  My neighbor on the other hand is lazy and has spent way more than he made over the past 30 years.  He was on the brink of bankruptcy and could not get another loan to continue his parasitic lifestyle.  I decided to take on more debt than I can possibly afford to pay back so I could loan him money at an artificailly low see he is a nice guy and promised to change is ways and pay me forward 5 asshole neighbor has spent all the money I loaned him and now we're both declaring bankruptcy...boy was I a fool!

TPTB can make it more complicated because of derivatives and the like (now that they just fucked the holders of CDS's), but really, it is this simple. Can we shoot these fuckers now before its too late?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:17 | 1818307 broke433
broke433's picture

Stop crying because you guys were short from 1070, just short again at 1350.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:18 | 1818313 mynhair
mynhair's picture

1400 would be a better level.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:26 | 1818345 broke433
broke433's picture

I doubt we hit 1400 unless we get QE 3, we are going to correct soon. Probably when G-20 is over before the next bunch of fund managers who missed out on this rally jump back in at the 200dma before thanksgiving and rally on till next year. I'm watching gold till it hits 1900 again to short silver though but I might just short QQQ until ES hits the 200 then buy some January VIX put options. Hoping I can grab some 20s at .05

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:17 | 1818309 jmac2013
jmac2013's picture

These goldman sachs analysis are funny.  They pretend to be reading the tea leaves about situations in which they are one of the primary participants behind the scenes.  Very disingenous.

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:18 | 1818315 Hoody Who
Hoody Who's picture

I am sure glad I stacked more of the phyzz while Gold & Silver were in their lows.  That are looking very shiny right now.  I expect them to get shinier.

The more they print, the more they shine.

Where are my sun glasses.  This glare is awesome!!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 15:30 | 1818353 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

credit-enhanced debt!

since default insurance no longer is tasteful, i'd like fries w/ that, please,...

...and popcorn, ok?

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 16:02 | 1818491 Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

Gotta love it when a plan comes together aye boys?  

Absolutely Beautiful Day today!!

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 16:47 | 1818663 socratesplus
socratesplus's picture

someone better tell the bundestag that the ecb is going to be doing smp after efsf funding...

Thu, 10/27/2011 - 20:08 | 1819233 ricocyb13
ricocyb13's picture

why are countries not just BUYING the banks insted of bailing them out?

Oh... Dexia.... most successful bank run by a government. Will this also happen to RBS ?

Fri, 10/28/2011 - 04:49 | 1820061 Grand Supercycle
Grand Supercycle's picture

DAX monthly chart at blog shows recent bullish candle revealing aggressive short covering rally enclosed within big picture bearish pattern.

Bullish USD weekly/monthly and bearish SP500/DOW monthly
charts will eventually ensure a violent reversal of equity uptrend.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!