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Goodbye Civilization: So Simple A Greekman Can Do It

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Around 1000 people per day are still losing their jobs in Greece with the percentage of the population not working now uncomfortably larger than those who are employed. This is creating drastic - or perhaps more aptly philosophical - reflections by its people. As the BBC reports, the feeling in Greece is that a "whole generation is on hold" and there is a growing trend towards the creation self-sustaining eco-communities - free of the ties of money and modern civilization. "What others saw as a global economic crisis, [Greeks] saw as a crisis of civilization" and so they are trying something different, growing their own food, bartering with one another, and exchanging surpluses with other villages. The community calls itself "Free and Real" - an acronym for Freedom of Resources for Everyone, Respect, Equality, Awareness and Learning - and it is growing as a stunning 76% of Greeks would like to emigrate. The positivist angle notes that the Greek crisis is not all bad as it shows the lives we are leading are not working and Greeks can "begin to look for alternatives." Everyone is stressed; but "Being able to work is a basic human right in a civilized society, if the government won't provide us with it then we will have to fight for it."

 

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Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:36 | 2720294 phat ho
phat ho's picture

agora 'bitchez'

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:43 | 2720316 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Crucifixions in Egypt. Bill Kristol will weigh in on how that's a good thing at 11:00.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:51 | 2720329 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Long Live the Communist Commune !!! (sarc.)

 

 

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:53 | 2720334 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

It's all fun until someone get crucified or beheaded.

 

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:02 | 2720363 saturn
saturn's picture

Freedom is terrorism by law. Governments will unite and take thorough care to rid the world of terrorists. Only the meek may get hands on food stamps. Yum!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:53 | 2720499 Manthong
Manthong's picture

if the government won't provide us with it”

Starting off with that mind-set they will be screwed no matter what they do.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:54 | 2720839 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

This x 100000000000^100.

"Being able to work is a basic human right in a civilized society, if the government won't provide us with it then we will have to fight for it."

????? >>>>>> ?????? >>>>> WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTT???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!! So total and complete is the lack of knowledge of economics and political economy of that single truly pathetic sentence.

Sounds as if they think they're taking a brief respite from Greek state socialism, merely biding time with agorism/anarcho-socialism/communitarianism until its return, and then things will all be okay again.

Just more white adults turned into intellectually degenerate adult children by the state.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 02:31 | 2722929 Siniverisyys
Siniverisyys's picture

Mother nature doesn't deny the right to earn. Please enlighten me as to why an economy should.

When a few hundred of us can feed millions, where does that leave you? I guess you should just stop breathing, you've outlived your usefulness.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 13:21 | 2720927 poor fella
poor fella's picture

If government is working against what's best for the people, it's not providing an environment conducive to positive change (the 'it' in the statement above).

The U.S. government is waiting for market forces and tax policies to create jobs, yet this is what, the 6th jobless recovery in the last 30 years? Quite a lot to expect.

Whether people like it or not, corporatocracy will limit everything governments provide - for GOOD & BAD. 

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 16:41 | 2721598 caconhma
caconhma's picture

Greece ia a NATO member and the best friend of Israel.

What is the world is coming to?????

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 17:09 | 2721714 phyuckyiu
phyuckyiu's picture

Amusing that you used a picture of Ken Kesey's replica Furthur bus that he made specifically to con the Smithsonian out of $$$$. The original still rusts out in the forest in Eugene. Are Greeks that good of Pranksters? They better try or they're dead.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 11:15 | 2730372 e-recep
e-recep's picture

israel is an artificial country set up with foreign money. when that money dries up, israel will dry up too. it is losing friends already.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 22:06 | 2722412 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

if the government won't provide us with it”

Starting off with that mind-set they will be screwed no matter what they do.

 

Well luckily 76% of Greeks want to emigrate and spread that learnin' around.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:02 | 2720364 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Only when you try to establish a bank.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:22 | 2720408 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Funny language, english. It should be de-headed, no? Like de-fanged adn de-clawed?

 

If you be-head someone, it looks lik eyou should be giving them A head. ;-)

I'll tell you all this, India is starting to stretch at the seams. From a social engineering perspective, those massive power outages, crazy viloence at the Suzuki Plant in Delhi, they actually burned one of their managers (HR guy, ironically), full on in-xodus of foreign buy-outs as Indians firms, especially in tech heavy or finance heavy sectors (like aviation, ripe pickings for big international operators as India's airline industry totters), huge import demand slow-down for goods in general, food prices sky-rocketing, water issues (Average of 4 bore-wells beign dug locally with-in my ear-shot, every week), senseless expenditure on proky projects like Metros being shoved into an ill-planned city like bangalore in an ill-planned way, Finance Minister told banks to drop rates to fan consumer spending to save the ecconomy (Keyenes has a fine student in the incumbent clown running finance here in India) and then most recently this racial tension between north-easterners and muslims (psy-op? most probably)... fuel prices have gone up 20 % in the past couple of years, real-time pricing being mulled (real-time rip-off more like it)...

All very shaky making... I go out and it just does not feel right.,...

ori

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:41 | 2720463 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Ori what happened to India's field hockey team in the Olympics?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:46 | 2720478 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

That Q, my friend, en-capsulates the Indian fake story of glory in 10 words and 2 punctuation marks or less.

Right there. Both internally, in India and Abroad, the India Shining story has been the biggest case of media fakery you can imagine.

ori

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:07 | 2720533 falak pema
falak pema's picture

sad I always thought Holi and Hockey were Indian! 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:43 | 2720470 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Funny language, english. It should be de-headed, no? Like de-fanged adn de-clawed?"

Welcome to English Pal

"All very shaky making... I go out and it just does not feel right.,..."

That only happens to me when I'm trying to speak French.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:50 | 2720492 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Hah.. awesome link, everyone should check it out. Good laugh.

Stepping out in an Indian Metropolis with all your sense keenly awake is quite an overwhelming experience, I'll tell you that GowinFawr.

ori

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:57 | 2720513 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I hear that.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 16:54 | 2721659 Mysteerious Roo...
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman's picture

 

The "ghoti" thing was ripped off from George Bernard Shaw.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 22:22 | 2722449 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Not by me... Serves him right though, darn watercress sandwich munching socialist.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:12 | 2720710 Gimp
Gimp's picture

ORI thanks for the Indian perspective. I work with a lot of Indians and they all seem to be trying to get the hell out of the Indian sub-continent and move there families to Europe, US, Canada...makes sense "why" now.

You can only fake it for so long before the wizard is exposed.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:40 | 2720797 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Sure thing Gimp.

I think it's Naked Emperor time all around. Hopefully and about time too anyway, eh?

ori

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:51 | 2720496 toady
toady's picture

Or puts an eye out.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:39 | 2720525 Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

That's so Middle Ages. Now our enlightened leaders use a .40 Jacketed Hollow Point to the back of the head. Watch froggy jump!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:54 | 2720339 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

when the hell did working become a basic human right?

and,wtf, if the government wont provide us with work....

 

i will pay 1000 US dollars to punch the person who said that right in the neck

1000 US fiat dollars

serious offer

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:59 | 2720351 Precious
Precious's picture

Excellent.  Failed NANNY STATE.  Lets hope it catches on.  

Maybe people in other "developed countries" will find out what it's like to be human again, instead of some mass brainwashed, welfare addicted, anesthetized robotron.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:03 | 2720362 Stackers
Stackers's picture

Sorry JohnQ, Karl Marx died about 150 years ago you missed your chance.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:27 | 2720423 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

 

He lives on in Barack Obama and many others

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:07 | 2720375 redpill
redpill's picture

Now you know how Greece became Greece :)

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:27 | 2720424 Precious
Precious's picture

Historically according to certain theology, you have a right to work anyday except Sunday.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:35 | 2720449 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

Working has always been a basic human right.

Having mommy government give you a job, however, is not. And. Ring assigned someone from whom you expect a paycheck is not, either.

A human looks around, sees his situation and his environment, and using logic, comes up with a way to improve his lot in life. That is work. And when the government says you have to have their permission, follow their arbitrary rules, and fill out mindless paperwork in order to do any work, they are interfering with that right.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 13:01 | 2720867 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

The right to labor and property is "the pursuit of happiness", of course all natural rights are inextricably linked.

You're right, and you've shown how the person quoted in the article is still deeply embedded in a statist conception of ... everything ... where the right to work is twisted to become the right for the state to control the labor market.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 13:53 | 2721058 poor fella
poor fella's picture

I agree with the majority of sentiments, but one thing I've been thinking about regarding a WPA program in the US.

People need the opportunity to be productive, learn, and meet new people; instead of sitting around. This is exactly where the entrepreneurial spirit lives and how new ideas and businesses are hashed out.

This would sop up extra labor and people would be more inclined to get motivated and look for new opportunities in AN UNLOCKED JOBS MARKET. It would also help get wages off rock bottom levels and help rebuild the middle class. There are plenty of currently employed that would prefer to do something else, for instance, get outside and build retaining walls or install energy projects.

For low skilled tasks, there are plenty of people for those areas, and people that prefer having no responsibility are actually happier in these jobs (vs. somebody over-edumacated).

I don't see many negatives and although a long shot, the Obamney's of the world are completely willing to allow the country to stagnate (collapse) for another 20 years, which is exactly what's happening.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 15:29 | 2721376 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Because those who work for the gov't A) work hard, B) learn entrepreneurship, and C) will use this experience to go out on their own and be productive in the future.

Riiiiiight.

Putting everyone to "work" for the gov't creates dependency, entitlement expectations, wastes resources, costs the real productive members of society money (See Bastiat for "what is seen and not seen" - the use of money and resources for central planning is taken FROM another productive use), and creates even more bureaucrats who now have a "job" running around and telling us what we can/can't do, charging us fines and fees, making us fill out paperwork to so much as sneeze.

Spend 2 weeks on a construction job full of union gov't workers and observe.  You'll see whining, griping, lazy products of public schools who are just filling in the hole between gov't education and their gov't pension in retirement with a few decades of gov't paychecks.

Furthermore, anyone who actually WANTS to work (and I mean work) would be shunned from a union construction site in 2 seconds flat.  In fact, unions impose fines on anyone who is too productive (e.g. fines for using tools which are too efficient and therefore risk putting another union brother out of work).

And above all, to have the gov't put people to work WPA style means they have to tax or print the money to pay them.  This increases the burden on individuals and businesses who are actually busting their ass today. Furthermore, gov't contracts are given out according to political favor (campaign contributions), affirmative action and quota ("Minority-owned", "Women-owned", and "Veteran-owned"), and union is favored (prevailing wage requirement).  Nothing here helps "rebuild the middle class" unless you agree with Krugman, in which case lets just tax everyone 100% and everyone can dig ditches in the back yard then fill them up.

(P.S. don't try to use the argument that making these ppl work is better than outright welfare.  Because entitlement programs actually suck up more money in the ADMINISTRATION of those programs than going to the recipients.  It can be said that entitlement programs are make-work programs as well.  Lets create a class of administrators and inspectors and supervisors to oversee a WPA.  You'll have 10 pencil and paper-pushers for every 1 worker out in the field.)

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 17:03 | 2721695 Mysteerious Roo...
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman's picture

 

Animal Farm. Some are more equal than others.

Plus ça change...

 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 03:26 | 2722949 Siniverisyys
Siniverisyys's picture

I can't address everything you've written here, except that it doesn't seem you've ever worked a labour (or union) position and not adequately knowledgeable to write about work or REAL work.

I think that the crux of the problem is that there will never be enough jobs for everyone - payroll jobs & small business. A proportion of the population will always be unnecessary. The real question is what to do with them...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:37 | 2720450 Marley
Marley's picture

In all likelihood, about the same time Reagonomics and The Trickle Down theory became a religion.  Gotta love fascism.  If only they'd read Ayn Rand.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:38 | 2720456 Sven Sikztu
Sven Sikztu's picture

and yet  something as basic as Self Defense isn't a Human Right. Ooooh, scary concept, can't have that taught in schools...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:43 | 2720467 Old Poor Richard
Old Poor Richard's picture

The ability of two parties to make a transaction, e.g. employer and employee, on terms suitable to the two parties without any interference from the state is a God-given basic human right bespoiled by toxic governments.

People have a right to work and people have a right to hire; the government actively prevents this by imposing artificial rules of employment and a contrived "economy" not determined by free markets that keeps this simple system from working properly.

We'll see whether these voluntary "communist" enclaves are outlawed as not giving the bankster/government priests their tithe.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:51 | 2720494 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"...when the hell did working become a basic human right?"

Congratz! You've all had your Pavlovian bell rung! 

What does it feel like to be had?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 17:00 | 2721687 Mysteerious Roo...
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman's picture

 

My daughter just hit me up for 500 bucks, and I gave it to her. So you can punch ME for $1000. Damn. Who knew? What an opportunity!

Hm.

Or you can punch my daughter for 500.

Your choice.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 22:21 | 2722456 KowPie
KowPie's picture

Define "punch" and include photo of daughter please.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:24 | 2720413 asteroids
asteroids's picture

We have all heard "Man is a Political Animal". WRONG! The correct translation from the Greek is that "Man is an animal of the City" (Polis). Greeks are simply reverting back to a very old idea. They realize that Athens is morally bankrupt and will kill them all if they don't do something else.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720361 CH1
CH1's picture

agora 'bitchez'

Amazing that you got down arrows for this. I guess Sunstein's trolls learned the term.

For those who remain uninformed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:12 | 2720389 saturn
saturn's picture

thanx

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 13:13 | 2720909 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

The article states they are not using money. Seems that they have confused gov't issued fiat currency for money. Without money, they will be going nowhere fast. I have a very strong suspicion the definition of agorism a libertarian/anarchist has in mind is NOT the operative definition here, remember the historical agoras were no more free markets in free societies than the workers' co-ops of the late Soviet Union. I find it too hard to believe based on this article alone that any number of Greeks have so quickly cast off the statist/interventionist/socialist mentalitities that define the modern Greek state and society. My guess is anarcho-communism (yes, an impossibility and a contradiction in terms, in reality).

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 15:44 | 2721435 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Communism and voluntary sharing of resources are not the same thing.

When we refer to communism as a political/economic system, usually there is nothing voluntary about it.  Citizens are forced to give up the fruits of their labor.

What we are seeing in Greece is groups of people banding together (voluntarily) into what could be called "communes", perhaps.  But to say that this is communISM is a stretch.  My guess is that the moment each of these feel that the goods they bring to the bartering table are not exchanged for worthwhile value, they will take their goods elsewhere.

A community barter system and communism are not the same thing.  People seem to think that libertarians don't believe in working together, helping one another, or organizing resource-based exchange.  Its the word "voluntary" that is key.

And what Americans may not realize is that while Greeks have become used to a nanny-state, and have spent a long time working the system, they have already had a barter-type system in place for a long time.  They have used under the table cash black market exchange and are probably more able to understand and exist in a barter world than your average American.  The same is true for other countries, especially those with a VAT, because the only way to survive is to avoid paying tax.  

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 16:48 | 2721626 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

+1 and Value Added Taxes over 20% make *think*. DingDing!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:06 | 2720374 Dalago
Dalago's picture

Blackmail... I mean bailouts... ahhh I knew what I typed.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:17 | 2720399 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

How the fuck does Ken Kesey and his Merry Pranksters, the bus photo is of them and the bus called Further, tie in with the Greeks?

Clearly none of you assholes understand either the history or the ideology behind those people.

Start with Electric Koolaid Acid Test.

You fucking morons don't even realize that the Grateful Dead, one of the most successful bands ever, were not only funded by Owsley the acid king but also very closely tied to Kesey. Profitable hippies, as was Kesey, wow who knew.

But someone saw a pretty hippie picture and decided to link it with Greeks. Associating two Gay guys assfucking would have more relevance that using that photo.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:27 | 2720426 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Gully, always good to read yer rants...

Cue Wavy Gravy.... the Clown... acid dealer... Woodstock Security Chief?

I met him. Frightening. Running a kid's retreat at that.

History is truly trippy!

ori

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:10 | 2720540 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

it wasn't those freaks who saturated the US with acid. look at Alpert (Ram Das) and Timothy Leary, products of CIA mind control programs using LSD at the Stanford Research Institute. just like the importation of crack into Compton, the CIA used this pet project to destabilize and subvert an entire generation.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:09 | 2720702 Gimp
Gimp's picture

LMFAO - Killing me on a Monday,

"Associating two Gay guys assfucking would have more relevance that using that photo."

Only problem, not PG13 which would reduce the market particpants for the piece.

 

 

 

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720295 lordbyroniv
lordbyroniv's picture

Hey Greece - 4th Turning [bitchez] !!!!!!!!!

PS - Take your 'rights' and go F yourselves!

I believe I have a right to have a hawt blonde sit on my face every nite but I ain't startin' a revolution over it.

 

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720308 Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

Fight for it? And just how does that work?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:35 | 2720779 calgal
calgal's picture

(:

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:34 | 2720780 calgal
calgal's picture

Let them eat p...I mean cake!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:39 | 2720298 i-dog
i-dog's picture

 

"Being able to work is a basic human right"

WTF !?!?! 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:40 | 2720305 Jason T
Jason T's picture

"By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

 

Tis in the Bible.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:56 | 2720343 CH1
CH1's picture

That ain't a right, dude... it was more like a curse.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720355 Precious
Precious's picture

Look around.  Earth is hell.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:19 | 2720403 john39
john39's picture

....Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev. 12:12

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720357 falak pema
falak pema's picture

apparently you don't like dust. 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:02 | 2720365 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

......or a threat

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:19 | 2720402 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Jason T

Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:35 | 2720446 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

rich men don't "need" god

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 17:14 | 2721730 Mysteerious Roo...
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman's picture

 

 

"A feast is made for laughter, and wine maketh merry: but money answereth all things."

Ecclesiastes 10: 19

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:47 | 2720818 Matt
Matt's picture

The Eye of the Needle is a mountain pass that is very narrow, but cuts off a lot of walking. A person can walk through it just fine, but a camel has to be unloaded, crawl on its knees in sections, and you better pray someone isn't coming from the other side with another camel or you're both gonna be real stuck. 

It's not a literal sewing needle.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 13:31 | 2730948 e-recep
e-recep's picture

fairy tale.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:42 | 2720312 madcows
madcows's picture

What, you don't have the right to work?  Who is preventing you from working!

They can't find a government job, so they're starting an Al Gore - Prince Charles Hippie Commune.  I'd say that's better than our Food Stamp - Section 8 - Drug Wards.

And, perhaps a few years from now, after the collapse of the dollar, we can turn to them for advice.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:45 | 2720321 Jason T
Jason T's picture

you need tools, land and energy to do work.  Beginning with the enegy from the sun that gives energy to the food man will eat from that to give man energy.

take away man's tools, land and energy, he can't work or work productivly.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:52 | 2720330 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Correct, as for you dust to dust reference, you first.  Listen for and heed the drums of war.  Same as it ever was.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720358 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Bullshit. As long as a man is healthy, he can work. He might not get paid much, or not even paid at all, but he can work.

I went to the track last week to play the ponies. A little girl was outside the gates with a cooler selling 16oz bottles of water for $1. "$4 inside, only $1 here," she cried out to everybody coming in. Nobody "gave" her that job, she created it herself. Probably made $50 bucks for 4 hours work.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:28 | 2720377 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Works until the vendors remove her or the track won't allow you to bring those bottles in (which is what happens at my local track).  Moreover, hardly a livable wage at the end of the day (especially living in a city where inflation destroys the purchasing power of that paper).  A healthy man's labor is far better rewarded by going fishing solo and eating well or finding work as a deck hand on a fishing boat.

Paper is dying, period.  Now if that girl was being paid in silver, then you would have a valid arguement.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:31 | 2720430 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Motivated people figure out a way.

There's a great quote from legendary football coach Chuck Noll. "If I have to motivate you, I'm getting rid of you." That man won four Super Bowls by getting rid of people who couldn't figure out a way to motivate themselves.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:40 | 2720458 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Stop dancing around the issue of energy(which is what you original comment was in response to).  

Where did the "little girl" get the ice?  From a machine that made ice (using energy). 

Here is the reality;over 7 billion mouths to feed, over 300 million in the U.S. alone.  Most commute (in cars using OIL or electricity from COAL and NATURAL GAS)

Your "solution" is that everyone stops and sells bottled water from a plastic (made from cracking petroleum) fucking bottle?

I agree that intelligent hard working people will do whatever it takes to get by, but you act like there is a really free market and powerful politically connected people won't kill certain solutions. 

Wake me when you are ready to have an adult coversation troll.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 16:49 | 2721634 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Its coming down to sheer human will vs the laws of physics Vs economic/political reality.

In terms of human will to do buisness and survive thats great and everything but is that really what you want though? Kids selling shit in the streets? She could have done the same thing cleaning dangerous machinery in factory and done it more efficently than getting a trained professional to do it. We could also sell to some  petro-dollar rich arabs and invest the proceeds for her college fund?  So few donors are kids these days her kidneys must be worth shit loads. Alot of bad shit can happen if you take that "Do what it takes" line of thought to its logical conclusions. Meanwhile some bastards are gaming the system so them and theres will never have to "do" quite as much to get "what it takes" done. Its a thin line between people doing "whatever it takes" and people getting exploited the fuck out of by people who know they HAVE to do what it takes. 

I wouldn't go down that peak oil line of thought either though. Our freind here Ori "Mr Regional India" will only be so happy to point out that the billion or so Indians on the subcontinent use way less energy than we do and can still live productive and i daresay happy lives. Human will to survive and thrive in any economy existed long before the combustion engine and fossil fuels. Maybe we'll find a way to maintain the seven billion when then shit hits the fan. Maybe it won't come to that for awhile and we'll be having the exact same conversation when the world hits 70 billion. They had same fucking thoughts back in the Victorian era and used it as an excuse to let people starve to death at pop 1 billion. I don't think its anymore right today than it was then. You let deterministic views on the enviroment trump human will to survive and you've sold out everything that got us here. The man dropping the Bible quotes has probably heard it, culling of the first born, sacrifices to Molech. Those were population control schemes put forward by the same preisthoods talking about  scarcity and the natural balance. It wouldn't rain if we didn't kill the kids(abort to protect the enviroment), they'd grow up and rebel against our rightful rule (abort to stop crime) and we wouldn't be able to feed  them (abort to stop poverty) so the old lies still go.

Nice thread though.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:42 | 2720465 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

Little girl was trespassing, located without a permit, conducting business without a business license, failing to charge the deposit for the bottle (must be a separate line item on the receipt here in CA) and evading her income taxes.

They got Capone for tax evasion, y'know. That's how they stop you from working.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:09 | 2720703 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Little girl met the shortage of Indians to provide US citizens with work...

Ah, good old time when entire continents were there to be seized and the world was not saturated with US citizens...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 17:16 | 2721738 Mysteerious Roo...
Mysteerious Rooshian Vooman's picture

 

She probably got arrested.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:07 | 2720369 Precious
Precious's picture

Aww fuck off JT.  There are barriers everywhere to working, idiot.

There was a wholesale change, post industrial revolution.  It's called credentialism.  Inspired by labor unions, implemented by public education, enforced by government regulators. Fucking open your eyes.  It's now institutionalized.  Chinese have an easier time making work than Americans.  

In America, and other "advanced nations" you have to pass a test and hold a learning certificate just to hold a fucking road sign.  Kiss my ass.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:30 | 2720436 houserich
houserich's picture

Finding work is easy. There's work to be done everywhere you look. Finding pay is harder.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:36 | 2720619 pufferfish
pufferfish's picture

In the UK the government often mentions 'Hard Working Families'. Never 'families with jobs'.

That coupled with interns working for free (stacking shelves in some cases).

Makes for a heady mix. Their motto should read: More work; less jobs.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:08 | 2720696 Acet
Acet's picture

Well, the UK has this whole "work hard" fetish, repeated again and again as if working hard is the whole objective of working. In fact, the objective of working for the employer is to produce results (i.e. it's the outcome of working that matters) while for the employees is to earn an income.

Having worked in Holland before moving to the UK, I find it kinda funny (and sad) that the meme about work around here is "work hard", the exact opposite of efficiency, rather than "work smart". Unsurprisingly the Dutch outproduced the British and I even remember some study some years ago that showed that in the private sector in Services the UK had the lowest productivity of the whole of Europe.

Not that I overly mind: working as a freelancer around here, I always managed to outproduce my colleagues by adopting a Dutch style of working (prepare before starting, be organized, invest in doing things that boost your productivity, work normal hours) rather than the local (long hours, ad-hoc, no thinking about efficiency) style.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:11 | 2720709 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Which one consumes the most?

'American' economics favours the highest consumption level possible...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:36 | 2720786 Acet
Acet's picture

My rough impression is that the British consume a lot more than the Dutch.

Certainly the Dutch are well know for being parsimonious (there's this running joke about how a dutchman will spend 5 euros in gas to drive to a place with a promotion were they can buy something with a 1 euro discount) and from what I know from my friends back in Holland, the level of saving there is far higher than in the UK (in fact, I do believe the UK has a negative level of personal saving).

My personal impression is that modern Britain has imported the bad sides of US culture and economy (greed, the individual above all, do-or-die, regulatory-capture, lobbyism) without the good sides (entrepreneurship, risk-taking, straight-talking, independence, self-sufficiency). Cross this with the local tendency to voice no criticism, valuing appearences above all and an extremelly calcified class system (especially in England) along with the end of the "English Gentleman" (which was replaced by a more American way of doing business) what you have is a system prone to nepotism, corruption and abuse by high-class insiders in positions of power.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:39 | 2720461 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

+1........i wish i held the patent on US Barriers to Entry, you almost have to have a four year degree to dig ditches anymore

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:16 | 2720554 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

you are sooo right precious!!!  I'm conducting an employee orientation today for new hires. It hase been a 3 week process just getting to this point.   Criminal background check, credential check, drug screen, credit check,   now time to do two hours of paperwork.  Send documents through everify(DHS)......

 

It makes me sick!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:17 | 2720556 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

It takes a unique kind of genius to sum up such profound problems in three simple paragraphs.  Well done Precious.

No sarc.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:29 | 2720586 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Prescious +1

I say if you can breathe you can work. and I am not talking about some lame concept like "living wage". More like the only work you can do for the day is nicking away your leg irons for 12 solid hours. But fuck your breathing and there is a chance of freedom.

PAPILLON BITCHEZ!

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:50 | 2720491 monoloco
monoloco's picture

Market destroying neo-liberal policies are the road to serfdom for the majority of us as the global banksters continue to siphon off the wealth of nations. 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:46 | 2720319 margaris
margaris's picture

And if you get old and disabled, you lose a basic human right.... sure sounds stupid!

A broken shattered pot has a right to still cook things!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:47 | 2720324 tbone654
tbone654's picture

There are NO rights...  and

Nothing is fair...

Remember these 2 things and you will be fine throughout life...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:11 | 2720384 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

and common sense isnt very common

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:11 | 2720385 Boondocker
Boondocker's picture

and common sense isnt very common

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:49 | 2720327 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

instead of saying: WTF ----is it a true statement?

if there are ten people in a closed system and only 7 jobs to earn currency to trade into sustinence - should the other three people starve to death?

yes or no?

whose responsibility is it to provide the difference in resources - either a job or sustinence?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:53 | 2720333 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Anyone can work.

Now getting paid for it is another thing entirely. . .

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:58 | 2720349 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

its not a closed system you tool

 

dont have a job?

have you got a rake?

a paint brush?

any useful tool, like hands for example?

fucking make yourself a job

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:30 | 2720435 Zap Powerz
Zap Powerz's picture

Life is brutal sometimes.  The inferior and unresourceful are supposed to die.  Its how we "progress".  I thought everyone knew that.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:33 | 2720605 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

How is it there?

 

You know, in the animal realm.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:19 | 2720640 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

OmenIV,  I choose to support my wife and children, while teaching them to become producing part of our 'closed system'

4 of 6 in our home produce at some level, the other two are under 10 yrs and are learn'n fast to produce for the extra's in life. 

That may account for ?? of the ten in your closed system.

In a free system, true community charity (not Corporation Charity) will take care of the truly dis-advantaged, and zap statememnt life is brutal takes care of the rest.

Just as the community is better able to handle the 'Justice System" without parasite lawyers, and  corporate corrupt legal systems.

Fast tracked Public Hangings for the worst in a community do wonders for clearing up "Justice Systems"

Cc

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:02 | 2720350 piliage
piliage's picture

Great. I've got a 100 foot hedge in my driveway that needs to be cut and it is 90+ F (30+C) today and damn humid too. Why don't one of you Greeks come over to my place and I'll hand you a hedge trimmer and allow you to fulfill your basic human right to work...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:03 | 2720368 CrimsonAvenger
CrimsonAvenger's picture

That sounds hard. Do you have anything in marketing or HR?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:23 | 2720412 otto skorzeny
otto skorzeny's picture

corporate america loves this thought process of "joy through work" or whatever the nazis spewed to the poor shlub slave laborers- to me marching off to work for 8,10,12 hours a  day is unnatural

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:50 | 2720489 Monedas
Monedas's picture

Arbeit Macht Frei !     Concentration camp greeting !

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:38 | 2720299 phat ho
phat ho's picture

western civilization for sell, get it while it's hot...... well used and absolutely worn out...albatross!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:39 | 2720300 Jason T
Jason T's picture

"self-sustaining eco-communities - free of the ties of money and modern civilization." 

We have something like that in Ithaca NY.. called Eco-Village.  They got solar and everything..

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:07 | 2720376 exi1ed0ne
exi1ed0ne's picture

We've got something like that too - Amish and Mennonite. I'll never forget the first time I saw someone harvesting a field of corn by hand. The amount of raw work that was required to do it was very instructive.

Coming soon to a front yard near you.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:23 | 2720572 toady
toady's picture

I've worked with a few ex-amish setting up my gardens, and I have three young sons that can work long hours.

Still, I don't think we could do it without the tractor.

The posts here are getting hung up on the symantics of 'right to work' instead of the idea of self-sustaining communities outside the current financial structure.

Too bad. I was hoping for some ideas along those lines. Maybe we can pick up some ideas on civilization from the Greeks again this time around!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:36 | 2720618 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

Yeah, the thread is monetized.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:19 | 2720737 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

I fail to see the bad in the greeks actions either. Instead of agruing about whether human rights include working, I hoped for congratulations on creating something outside the existing paradigm of debt. Of turning their backs to centrally planned government and relying on neighbors and relatives and friends. Ideas like this are what we need to be free, I sincerely hope that they catch on here at home too. I also hope it doesn't take 50% unemployment and riots to get there.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:40 | 2720302 Barry Mcokiner
Barry Mcokiner's picture

 "growing their own food, bartering with one another, and exchanging surpluses with other villages" unfortunatley these activities are illeagal here in the US.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:43 | 2720314 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Fuck ~ if that's the case... & if 76% of Greeks want to emigrate... I'd be happy to trade them my spot here for some nice farmland on one of the islands where I can just stick a shovel in the ground, live off the land, & not be hassled by whatever alphabet soup agency thinks I'm a danger because I own a hoe & a mattock...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:14 | 2720546 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

odd fact that just around the time of Greek collapse, US put Greece on visa waive program!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:51 | 2720328 tbone654
tbone654's picture

illegal, yes...  not good for currency velocity...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:04 | 2720371 skipjack
skipjack's picture

Exactly.  Your "right to work" is undermined by government laws and regulations at every turn.  Want to grow or prepare food ?  Get a certification and a license.  Want to open a shop ?  Call the permit police, OSHA, the health department, and the Dept of Labor, and get a tax id for tax confiscation.  Want to provide a service, like being a doctor , midwife or herbalist ?  Get a government-regulated certification/diploma, fend off the lawyers and all the other govt regulations and conditions.  Want to provide MRI services ?  You can't if there are already too many other MRIs in your area, according to government.

 

Wake up folks - every condition of your life is controlled by government.  You have given up your rights to everything.  At least the Greeks are trying to take them back.  When will you ?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:16 | 2720397 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Thank you!  You posted exactly what was going through my mind as I was reading some of the insane comments being posted here.  This is a positive step for the Greek people.  They are now stepping outside of the system that was set up to fail them.  They are making their food supply a priority.  I mean, WTF, are they just supposed to lay down in the streets and die of starvation because they do not have the fiat to buy food?  My only question is will the technocrats in power allow the current cancerous system to pass away and let the new system gain a foothold?  My gut tells me no and that there will be more blood on the scumbags' hands. 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:52 | 2720498 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

In the USA, there is a war on gardens: http://grist.org/list/city-officials-are-waging-a-war-on-gardens/

On a related note, in my city, the city government says it owns all the trees. Including the ones in hour yard. Really. In order to work on them, you have to be approved by the city, including two (2!) million dollar insurance policies. Then you have to have a separate permit for each address you want to service a tree at.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:56 | 2720508 MilleniumJane
MilleniumJane's picture

Madness isn't it?  Who would've believed 10 years ago that gardening would become such a revolutionary act?  We are living in very strange times.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 12:04 | 2720689 bonderøven-farm ass
bonderøven-farm ass's picture

We've been encorporating permaculture, edible landscape design, french intensive, and no-till gardening practices into our self-sustainable farm for over a decade.  It works.  To be sure, the pendulum is swinging again toward a renaissance in gardening for self-sufficiency.  Grow your own BITCHEZ....!

"I must create a system, or be enslaved by another man's." W. Blake

"We are striclty confined to our men to whom we give liberty." H. Thoreau 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 13:34 | 2720987 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

we are living 'American' times.

Quite easy to figure out that gardening would endanger the 'american' way of life.

'American' economics lead people to flock around their revenue brackets.

Any gardening debut signals that one member of the housing block is actually no longer a member as one's revenues no longer fit the housing block's revenues bracket.

As a consequence, it will lower the real estate value in the neighbourhood.

Something that 'American' neighbours can not stand and will fight, using the full power of an 'american' government.

'American' societies are middle class societies.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 15:28 | 2721379 akak
akak's picture

We are increasingly living Chinese Citizenism times.

Quite easy to figure out that flush toilets would endanger the Chinese Citizenism way of life.

Chinese Citizenism socio-economics lead people to flock around their roadsides to defecate in public.

Any private, indoor, flush-toilet defecating debut signals that one member of the centrally-planned Chinese Citizenism housing block is actually no longer a proper Chinese Citizenism member as one's pooping no longer fit the housing block's roadside crapping conformity.

As a consequence, it will lower the real estate value in the (toxic) neighbourhood.

Something that 'Chinese Citizenism neighbours can not stand and will fight, using the full power of their totalitarian, one-part, Tibet-raping Chinese dictatorial government.

Chinese Citizenism societies are stinking ass societies.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:35 | 2720614 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

+100 for you!!! 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:42 | 2720303 yogibear
yogibear's picture

Greece, Spain and Italy have found a bigger fool, it's Germany. The banksters can force the Germains to work until 80 to pay off the club-med debts.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:41 | 2720630 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

That's what its all about, isn't it?

 

Paying off debts. That needs to be maintained at all cost.

 

So lets ridicule eco-villages!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:40 | 2720304 urbanelf
urbanelf's picture

Teh lulz 4 I gotz a rite 2 werk, bitchez!!!

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720306 1100-TACTICAL-12
1100-TACTICAL-12's picture

Hell I"m moving to Greece......

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720310 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture

Me to

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:55 | 2720341 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Happy to pop for the one-way ticket.....solving problems.....one at a time.

 

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720307 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture

Who knew long hair and beards would be the tell of an evolving human race

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:41 | 2720309 pods
pods's picture

I like the concept of decentralized society, but those quotes make my hair hurt.

The GOVERNMENT should provide a job for you?

Does everyone today run around looking for another leader to follow?

pods

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720356 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

The quote reads "Being able to work is a basic human right in a civilized society, if the government won't provide us with it then we will have to fight for it."

I'm not sure I understand what was meant; perhaps it was a translation error. I would suggest that being able to work and retain the fruits of one's labors is a valid concept. The US has certain professions have restricted access, sometimes - in some states - via union laws, sometimes via government regulation such as bar associations. The US has, unfortunately, gone over the edge in repression when lemonade stands run by children are prohibited, when raw milk is more suppressed than toxic wastes, etc. In many places having a well-tended food-producing garden in one's yard is considered a crime. I guess that's what happens when citizens become subsidiary to the government rather than vice versa.

The second part of the quote bothers me, too, since I don't see providing jobs as a valid function of government. Far too many disagree with me on that point. Perhaps the meaning was that, if the government interferes with our peaceably fending for ourselves, we will fight to be able to do so. I'd hope that was the meaning.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:22 | 2720566 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I certainly have a big problem with government mandating fluoridation of water and banning raw milk.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:01 | 2720360 madcows
madcows's picture

I'm seeing progress.  They have rejected the idea that government can solve their problems, and are taking matters into their own hands.  SELF RELIANCE!, even in Greece.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:23 | 2720411 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

The price of a nanny state is eternal baby crying.

-ZD

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:01 | 2720520 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Trillion. Dollar. Baby. (apologies to Alice)

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:42 | 2720311 kito
kito's picture

clearly this is the direction many of the citizens of united states will be taking......a country of community, self reliance, cooperation.....only the ones that embrace this path will prosper and evolve...............

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:47 | 2720323 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Many have already started... TPTB are trying to put a finger in that dike, but my sense is that, notwitrhstanding the occasional 'show of force' displays that they like to brag about, they're LOSING the battle...

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:22 | 2720407 malikai
malikai's picture

It's not a battle that can be won. They're fighting human nature.

Get in the way of that and you will always lose.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:12 | 2720390 Precious
Precious's picture

Now just tell the fucking government to keep the fuck away, and it might actually work.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:55 | 2720507 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

The reason it will work on Greece, is because they are not paying the government workers, either.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:45 | 2720320 eigenvalue
eigenvalue's picture

Being an unemployed Greek is more tragic than being an unemployed American. At least, an unemployed American can still go and teach English in China.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:32 | 2720392 Precious
Precious's picture

Right.  Because you can't make smartphones and basketball shoes out of Greek philosophy.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 11:02 | 2720522 falak pema
falak pema's picture

you can, using 3D printers programmed on greek logic.

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:46 | 2720322 Super B
Super B's picture

Maybe they can redefine tax evasion as employment.  Then the country would have 95% employment

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 09:48 | 2720325 Cranios
Cranios's picture

RETURN OF THE GREEK CITY-STATE?

Mon, 08/20/2012 - 10:06 | 2720373 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture

 

 

 

Sounds like it they are attempting to bring back the very thing that wasn't sustainable to begin with.

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