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Great News: Just 10% More Quote Churn And The Broken Market "Resets"

Tyler Durden's picture


For all those wondering what may force the "GREAT RESET", we now know. According to the below email from the Nasdaq sent out 24 minutes before close, we were just 10% away from the Nasdaq essentially DKing all trades on one of its UTP channels, and "restarting the outbound message count. If the count is restarted, the UTP SIP will be unable to process any UQDF retransmission requests for the affected data channel..." All we need now are the HFT quote churners to put the empty churn knob on max tomorrow, and the market, well, breaks.

From: Trader Website []
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 3:36 PM
Subject: UQDF Channel 6


NASDAQ Operations has recently updated the status of the following NASDAQ Market System(s) to the NASDAQ Trader website:


Given today's market conditions, the UTP SIP has already disseminated over 90 million quotation updates on UQDF channel 6 (S-Z). As noted in UTP Vendor Alert #2011-2, the UQDF message sequence number is a 8-byte numeric field with a maximum value of 99,000,000. If the UTP SIP processes more than 99 million quotation updates messages for NASDAQ symbols in the S to Z alpha range, it will need to reset the UQDF channel 6 message sequence number to zero and restart the outbound message count. If the count is restarted, the UTP SIP will be unable to process any UQDF retransmission requests for the affected data channel prior the message sequence number reset event. Please note that only UQDF is close to its maximum sequence number. Because the UTP SIP has established reset procedures, trading should not be impacted


Please refer to the link for additional system status updates.

h/t Nanex


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Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:37 | 1548163 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Let's break this thing!   Operation Mayhem.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:49 | 1548293 MarketTruth
MarketTruth's picture

QUICK, call Initech to rework the software... and make sure your trades have the new TPS cover sheet!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:59 | 1548377 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

defines the problem perfectly. add another digit to the odometer, duh.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:32 | 1548545 spiral_eyes
Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:18 | 1548733 Bill Lumbergh
Bill Lumbergh's picture

That is my call on how we will proceed.  However I do need you to come into work this weekend.  Greattt...thanks.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:08 | 1548436 max2205
max2205's picture

Man vs machines.....break the machines. You thought 1987 was bad....

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:21 | 1548497 Breaker
Breaker's picture

As much as I hate the idea of giving the feds more money to waste, a 1 cent tax on each order placed would do a lot to fix the HFT caused volatility.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:55 | 1548628 jemlyn
jemlyn's picture

I love your idea!  Let's make it 5 cents.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 21:45 | 1549539 V10
V10's picture

I'm all for anything that separates actual investors from traders (ie. HFT casino-mentality money movers).

In the same vein, what about requiring anything traded be held for a minimum amount of time? Yeah, yeah, 'providing market liquidity' and all those textbook excuses, but a 24-hour cooling off period is not going to cause real economic activities (people and corporations that actually produce things) to grind to a halt.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:43 | 1548591 FreakuentFlyer
FreakuentFlyer's picture

let me try this.

data feeds can deliver quote messages in two basic modes: tcpip & udp. the 1st one is slower because it guarantees that each message will be delivered to its recepient, and in the order in which the messages have been sent. if one is not confirmed, the networking layer resends the message while the subsequent messages "wait".


udp on the other had does not support delivery confirmation nor sequence validation, but is therefore "much" faster. which is the reason most serious HFT shops subscribe to that version of each ecn feed.


since the message sequence arrival is not guarnateed to be identical to departure, the recepient might have an issue if there is a transmission issue: e.g. nasdaq sends message1=new-quote#1-ibm-100@200.55; next message=quote1-size-reduction-50; next message=quote1-size-increase-70. if the 2nd and 3rd message get "twisted" while traveling on the wire, the recepient firm might have a temporary issue with data quality. or more permanent issue, in case one of the messages is lost (due to buffer overflow, etc.)


so, the data feeds implement message sequence numbers so that recipients can detect if there is message loss or delay - each next message has an increasing message sequence number, and the recipient keeps track of the next # they ought to expect, and wait for.


the reason you wanna wait for the messages in the proper sequence is because you do not know the ticker of the message, until you get it - so you do not know which of your internal stock quote books is incomplete.


since there are a lot of tickers and messages, each data feed in this multicast/udp format, is divided into "channels" based on ticker alphanumeric names. each channel is responsible to broadcast all messages for it range of tickers and number them accordingly. and their max range of seq # per channel is the 99M mentioned.


if one of the receipents detects a loss or a delay, they know the last in sequence # they have received, so they have the option of explicitely requesting a resend of the next/id that they are missing/is-delayed.


but this re-transmission request-response can not work, if the sequence number has been turned over from 99M back to 1, 2..


in reality, waiting for the request-response is too costly, since you would realy need to stop processing all messages, including the tickers not affected, so there is a practice in the industry to just keep going and not "look-back".


long story short, ppl def. rely on the seq number, most do not use its entire intended purpose, and i suspect that wrapping arround the numbers might be a bigger issue than not being able to request-response once that happens.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:06 | 1548684 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Good writeup.  I've seen other hints I'm not the only guy here who knows more than a little about the machines.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:18 | 1548738 FreakuentFlyer
FreakuentFlyer's picture


although i disagree with some of the technological "information" found here, i do share many ZH wide "conclusions", so let's both hope that the credit market insights are of greater accuracy than the articles on equities markets' architecture/infrastructure :))))

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 19:29 | 1549032 JohnG
JohnG's picture

Also consider OOB transmissions.....!


yeah, I wrote a lot of SS7 protocols...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 23:08 | 1549717 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture


OOB ="Out Of Band" in case anybody was wondering re: SS7 ...



Wed, 08/10/2011 - 22:38 | 1549656 Bob Paulson
Bob Paulson's picture

You mean Project Mayhem... and yes, destroy it.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 00:56 | 1549888 US Uncut
US Uncut's picture

Please... someone translate?  

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:35 | 1548170 Number 156
Number 156's picture

'We make money the old fashioned way; We churn it!'

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:53 | 1548326 Debtless
Debtless's picture

LULZ. I peed a little after reading that. Thank you.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:06 | 1548420 Westcoastliberal
Westcoastliberal's picture

Made me fart, just a little.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:05 | 1548677 The Count
The Count's picture

And I spend money the old fashioned way, I burn it.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:36 | 1548171 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

What does this mean?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:38 | 1548191 Black Forest
Black Forest's picture

Sophesticated software.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:44 | 1548256 Ancona
Ancona's picture

It means tehy need to go get a tube of JB right now.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:54 | 1548270 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

It's like a congested cell phone network after a natural disaster (unable to talk to family/friends).  It's a positive feedback loop to the panic.  The more people panic the more they try to call, which overloads the network more, which creates more panic...  so on and so forth...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548341 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

How dare you over dramatize the situation.  So the market breaks.  But to even suggest a cell phone network would go down so the sheeple cannot Facebook is very irresponsible.  This would cause sever panic to which we may never recover.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:17 | 1548482 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Lack of optimism should be treason.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:21 | 1548501 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Downgraded.  A couple of years ago, we needed hope.  Now, just optimism.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548339 MolotovCockhead
MolotovCockhead's picture

Is the message suppose to boost our confidence?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:58 | 1548365 Mad Max
Mad Max's picture

It's a bit like the Y2K problem, except it's quotes and it's more like the Q 1x10^9 problem.

Put simply, there so much HFT bullshit going around it's exceeding the limits of daily quotes that the system had been designed for.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:07 | 1548431 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

So they're stuffing too many quotes into the system? Or is it actual trades?

What's the end result? Halt?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:10 | 1548449 max2205
max2205's picture

No problem with my I Phone trading Apps. Weeee

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:36 | 1548172 phungus_mungus
phungus_mungus's picture

Churn-em and burn-em! 

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:36 | 1548175 Eagle Keeper
Eagle Keeper's picture

What would the market volume look like if there were no HFTs?  

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:37 | 1548185 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

Can you imagine, a market full of humans buying and selling?  How un-American.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:51 | 1548310 The Man in Room Five
The Man in Room Five's picture

Don't you mean "a market full of humans selling".

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:26 | 1548521 toady
toady's picture


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:03 | 1548403 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

LAtely the news has been showing traders on the floor in an effort to put a face on the crash.  I always wonder if they are just actors or if the cleaning crew wears ellaborate uniforms.   What are they doing there?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:43 | 1548587 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

CNBC extras.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:39 | 1548201 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

What does it mean?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:50 | 1548307 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Keep adding one to the number each time so each transaction has a unique number.  Pretty soon, all of the bits are set to one.  Add one more and get an overflow (TILT in pinball terms, NAN error) or get a wrap-around and now have two transactions with the same number.

That breaks the program and unusual things happen.  So they would have to break all subsequent (DK) trades.

- Ned

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:58 | 1548369 Nozza
Nozza's picture

UQDF is the UTP Plan Quote Data Feed (UQDF) - providing continuous quotations from all market centers trading Nasdaq-listed securities. It is split into channels. Each channel can handle 99 million transactions per session, before having to be reset. It's usually reset before trading. But if reset is required during the trading day, then previous transactions could get, er, lost, so they dont let the rollover happen as such, but implement some other procedures so trading shouldn't be affected. Apparently.

UTP is Unlisted Trading Privileges. It allows BBO - besg bid and best offer quotes for participants, as well as consolidation of national best bid and best offer (across all market centres).

When you see NASDAQ numbers scrolling randomly under the screen on CNBC, Bloomberg or Fox (lol) the numbers have come from this. As the data is "live" you have to pay a licence to publish it within 15 minutes (I believe).

With HFTs - high frequency trades - running the markets using algos (algorithms - or math rules) on busy or interesting days (like today lol) the number of trades is VERY high - 99 million in the letters S to Z range.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:09 | 1548447 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Wow, thanks for the explanation.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:15 | 1548468 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

But do you really have to smile when you say it?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:21 | 1548750 Nozza
Nozza's picture



Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:44 | 1548594 Saxxon
Saxxon's picture

Thanks for the explication. 

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:40 | 1548213 Jonathan Toews
Jonathan Toews's picture

I think I get the gist of it, but can someone explain what this means in laymens terms, please?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:54 | 1548330 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Just what Milton says below (the Y 99,000 k). Basically they've run out of digits to number the quotes with.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:58 | 1548373 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

I think it means all the orders it has pending are/may be cancalled and you will have to resubmit your sell/buy orders

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:10 | 1548450 Westcoastliberal
Westcoastliberal's picture

Reminds me of the Y2K good 'ol days!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:40 | 1548215 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

Baxter you know I don't speak spanish!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:41 | 1548219 Milton Waddams
Milton Waddams's picture

Y 99,000 K

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:41 | 1548224 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

"reset".  That sounds bullish.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:41 | 1548229 Smiddywesson
Smiddywesson's picture

It was just a matter or time.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:41 | 1548230 JimBobOMG
JimBobOMG's picture

So the market shuts down. Big deal.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:41 | 1548231 roymunnson
roymunnson's picture

It means the mechanism that will be used to explain the huge crash yet to come has already been identified....a precurser to the main event.


Kind of like in a movie

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:57 | 1548354 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Plausible deniability, FTW!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:02 | 1548394 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

What it means is they have a ready excuse for why your offer conveniently got lost.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:42 | 1548233 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture


Great job NYSE, SEC, Bernankimbecile, Jeetner, NASDAQ, the regulators, CONgress & ObaMao!!!!!!!!

Awww, you went ahead and broke the markets...


Broken markets, bitchez!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:28 | 1548528 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

No, "rollback, bitchez!" on this one? ;)

You broke your 2 day streek.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:42 | 1548235 But then what d...
But then what do I know's picture

it means you cannot get a quote. If you cannot get a quote you cannot trade. If you cannot trade there is no market. If there is no tell me:)

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:49 | 1548288 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Just call it a bit bucket shop.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:42 | 1548238 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Solution is simple. Tell the robots to stuff more quotes for Nasdaq stocks in the A - R alpha range instead.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:43 | 1548246 Whatta
Whatta's picture

at reset, does obumholes vacation start?

But seriously, WTF does that mean to a day of trading. My trades are kicked back?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:44 | 1548255 Manthong
Manthong's picture

To infinity! And Beyond!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:44 | 1548258 IMA5U
IMA5U's picture

make like ahnold and GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:04 | 1548412 caerus
caerus's picture


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:46 | 1548276 walküre
walküre's picture

Keep in mind that the same machines that are vomitting over this market are also driving gold futures higher.

Same algo programmers at work!

What it comes down to is this.

Ben needs to pull the QE3 lever or the spoiled brats will continue to sell the market lower.

GS had a major loss in Q2. Do you all know how that feels? It's horrible!



Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:52 | 1548316 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Remember how everyone thoguht Geithner would resign?  Well, what if Ben does?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548337 mynhair
mynhair's picture

Ben resigns, and the shorts are flamed. Hear Felix the Cat is next in line.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:24 | 1548510 Cheesy Bastard
Cheesy Bastard's picture

+1 magic bag of tricks.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:02 | 1548391 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

All of The Bernank's advisers have resigned.

Can anyone smell what The Bernank has cookin'?

All three of Bernanke's top staff advisers have left their positions or announced their departures in the last 13 months
Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:09 | 1548444 warchopper
warchopper's picture

If there is another QE3 the dollar will break. After a brief rally, the market will crash even farther.

I think Obama is praying for a crash in the magnitude of an additional 720 PTS for the S&P 500. If it crashed down 700+ PTS, then he can say the economy is in "recovery mode" (which is due to his economic policies and the widely successfull bipartisan debt ceiling repeal //sarcasm//) when he is fully engaged in his campaign phase. He will take a market crash, and spin it to his benefit.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:12 | 1548461 max2205
max2205's picture


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:47 | 1548281 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"The UQDF message sequence number is a 8-byte numeric field with a maximum value of 99,000,000."

We need a bigger boat, ... er ... numeric field.

- Ned

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:49 | 1548296 gratefultraveller
gratefultraveller's picture

Yeah, was just gonna say - add a few zeroes.

Edit: Is that how/where inflation starts?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:53 | 1548322 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Inflation starts in the mind of the guy who controls the money supply when he controls it out into orbit. - Ned

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:09 | 1548445 Manthong
Manthong's picture

What was that about stuffing 10 pounds of manure into a 5 pound bag?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:52 | 1548617 AGuy
AGuy's picture

Ifs it's really 8 bytes than the max value is 2^64 (a really big number). What Bonehead use BCD coding instead of Hexadecimal. Must have be a VB programmer.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:37 | 1548828 Silver Pullet
Silver Pullet's picture

VB? Don't be silly. It must be a 75 year old Cobol programmer.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 23:14 | 1549732 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture


What Bonehead use BCD coding instead of Hexadecimal.

- - - - - -   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



(The answer: Financial Programmers BTW ... using COBOL, which looks a lot like BASIC ...)




Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:47 | 1548283 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Did the President's Working Group on Financial Markets run out of cash or what?  What a bunch of suckers.

Thu, 08/11/2011 - 00:25 | 1549844 traditionalfunds
traditionalfunds's picture

They are keeping their powder dry for when it gets bad,

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:49 | 1548294 Manzilla
Manzilla's picture

Can't they just print more quotation updates? Just add a few more zeros to the end. Oh wait that only works for Ben.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:50 | 1548298 mt paul
mt paul's picture

bad algos

ate all the twinkies....

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:50 | 1548301 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

can we get this explanation in italian, too? 

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:55 | 1548629 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'entrate.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:52 | 1548313 gratefultraveller
gratefultraveller's picture

All your quotations are belong to us!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:27 | 1548523 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

AYBABTU, baby!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:52 | 1548318 mynhair
mynhair's picture

So, I should change my bids tomorrow as fast as possible to help?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:54 | 1548329 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Didn't we fix that shit for Y2K?   LOL

Now the machines, patiently waiting for so long, will strike.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:54 | 1548332 Eagle Keeper
Eagle Keeper's picture

There is no spoon....

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548336 DNB-sore
DNB-sore's picture

means that about 50 procent of data send can not be qualified

means see you tomorrow, try again

means that people got shilled untill next trading session, lay in your wants and again at the very same time data limits are reached again

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548342 Herman Strandsc...
Herman Strandschnecke's picture

Well if it stops working I shall expect a discount!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:55 | 1548343 hunglow
hunglow's picture

How much time will I have to back the truck up.  I'm an excellent driver.  Dad lets me drive slow on the driveway every Saturday.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:57 | 1548347 jon
jon's picture

haha, eight bytes and they can only count to 99,000,000 -- which happens to be eight digits long. that means they're probably using one byte to express ten values, zero through nine.

give me eight bytes (64 bits) on a modern computer and i can express the values zero through 18,446,744,073,709,551,615 in binary -- that's 256 values per byte, not ten. 256 to the power of 8, or 2 to the power of 64. (subtract one to get the maximum value, since 0 is one of the values.)

learn to count, fags

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:06 | 1548423 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

I was wondering how they could only get to 99M. But then again, a byte per digit should get them up 99.999999M, so I'm left wondering if there isn't a two digit multiplier somewhere in their code limiting them?

Which would be hysterical.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:16 | 1548476 Nozza
Nozza's picture

They use 7 bit ASCII not 8 bit, as they are using an old Cisco multicaster  but that's splitting hairs. lol

As an aside, the 6 channels are allocated 1. A-B, 2.C-D, 3. E-I, 4. J-N, 5. O-R and 6. S-Z

It's this last channel that is filling up too fast.

Each channel has it's own multicast IP address and port - I hope their firewall is working....

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:16 | 1548477 MyKillK
MyKillK's picture

Yea, as a programmer myself I simply cannot understand this. Who stores their numbers as a string of ASCII digits???? Never heard of that, EVER.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:51 | 1548613 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

We've got several instances of numbers stored as strings from a previous main-frame to AS400 upgrade. Just last week I got bit by the leading zeros in a field causing the value to be interpreted in octal in Javascript.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:04 | 1548671 MyKillK
MyKillK's picture

Jeez. Numbers stored as strings seems like a huge disaster just waiting to happen...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 19:55 | 1549141 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

But wait, there's more!

Thousands of field names, none any longer than 8 chars. Abbr./Acronym hell.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:05 | 1548675 FreakuentFlyer
FreakuentFlyer's picture

perhaps a solution intended to deliver one message format that is both human readable and is platform independant - just in case someone might wanna load them quotes into win/C# code, whereas another recepient might wanna do something similar with an identical copy, using some lin/C++ code.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:14 | 1548715 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

Yes, making a format human-readable is a boon for debugging, lets each part of the system do what it does best.  Human eyes see patterns easier in familiar formats, and the simpler tools just show you what's in the channel (so they can be fast, not needing to interpret).  Now, whether that should be needed here -- seems silly to me.

But the buy who'd never seen that -- is a lucky dude.  Never had to parse XML where you can ue a page of text to convey about a byte's worth of info.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:29 | 1548536 divide_by_zero
divide_by_zero's picture

Heck, just using packed BCD they could double the range.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:57 | 1548351 Eagle Keeper
Eagle Keeper's picture

Actually, this is a vulnerability waiting to be exploited. Hackers paradise! We now know how to DDOS market!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:00 | 1548382 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Well said.  Put those fucking kids from Anonymous on it.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:08 | 1548438 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

When you say kids, do you mean goats, as in scapegoats?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:12 | 1548459 Frog-And-Toad
Frog-And-Toad's picture

Do we smell a LULZ?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:06 | 1548415 moldygoat
moldygoat's picture

Oh, it will be exploited! Cyber 9/11 coming to a market near you.

Hong Kong got some already

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:18 | 1548485 Matte_Black
Matte_Black's picture

As you said, "There is no spoon".

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 16:58 | 1548364 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Here's one way to unclog the pipe: the exchange could drop excessive order cancels randomly. That would derail all HFT algos in one clean head shot.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:00 | 1548383 JuicedGamma
JuicedGamma's picture

That's retarded, didn't they learn anything from y2k.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:02 | 1548396 warchopper
warchopper's picture

The Penson OFX server was down for for about 5 days following the initial market sell-off. I'm also having problems doing wire transfers out from my accout...that system is "no longer available".

Doesn't seem like the systems are ready for the coming crash.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:10 | 1548453 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Sounds to me like they are very ready, making sure all the exits are first sealed.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:57 | 1548636 Crack-up Boom
Crack-up Boom's picture

Bingo - we have a winner!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:04 | 1548406 bbq on whitehou...
bbq on whitehouse lawn's picture

Oh hell no.

"number is a 8-byte numeric field with a maximum value of 99,000,000. If the UTP SIP processes more than 99 million quotation updates messages for NASDAQ symbols in the S to Z alpha range, it will need to reset the UQDF channel 6 message sequence number to zero and restart the outbound message count.

There is a limit?

A small limit at that.

Well that one way to stop HFT. Just shut down their access.

Maybe i need to look to a farm some crops and the morning sun.  Drink some goldschlager and build and outhouse. 

Who has the balls to say.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:06 | 1548421 Stax Edwards
Stax Edwards's picture

Harder Better Faster Stronger Bitchez...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:07 | 1548425 Contra_Man
Contra_Man's picture

This means your HF trader could be hung out to dry... with no fills... therefore, no hedging of any risk of any kind until the reset occurs (at some yet undefined point in time).    At reset time, your fast trading money algos may wake up and notice trading cupboards empty.

That said, Banksters just restart the music again for everyone setting us all up for the next round of the old "Quote Stuffing Turned-Off Game" of guess your retirement number.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:07 | 1548426 SPAREPARTS
SPAREPARTS's picture

well the big boys have earned this mess, I will try to not be the victim, stand clear let the shit hit the fan,WOW cool

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:09 | 1548446 ReactionToClose...
ReactionToClosedMinds's picture

General Question ... more Main Street than Wall St oriented:

With this recent extreme volatility, how can any company make any kind of capital budget projection or assumption?   I mean ROI and IRR have to start to be approaching nonsensical levels on spreadsheets everywhere.  No biz can make any kind of capital-at-risk determination right now ... when you have no dear idea where this ends up at?

Implication:  if this keeps up here and in Europe, then businesses are going to freeze (even more so than what they have done at least in USA since Team 44 came to town) and head into the tent.  And even the generallly fundamentally sound emerging markets will get drawn into that kind of vortex .... even the biggest 'capitalist' (command) market ... PRChina.

Main Street and corporate Amerika better assert themselves fast or there really will be a great recession or worse.  What they will 'assert' ... my mind cannot get to right now.



Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:11 | 1548455 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

you'll know the end is near when high class hookers want to be paid in silver.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:13 | 1548462 MyKillK
MyKillK's picture

They store their numbers as ASCII digits????

What kind of retard programmed their system? A single byte can go from 0-255. 8 Bytes can hold a number MANY orders of magnitude higher than 99 million.

This is the dumbest shit I've read all day.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:20 | 1548496 tinfoilhat
tinfoilhat's picture

I was wondering when someone was going to ask the obvious question. Even if they were stupid enough to use a signed 8-byte value, it would still be good for sequence #s up to 9,223,372,036,854,775,807.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:29 | 1548798 BurningFuld
BurningFuld's picture

268435454  makes a bit of sense, but 99000000 makes no sense.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:29 | 1548531 Nozza
Nozza's picture

Its 7 bit ascii - the MSB is always 0. lol

It the telecomms and accounting that dictate data is stored this way - it also makes it easier to render the data on screens - or web pages.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:35 | 1548564 MyKillK
MyKillK's picture

You could have a system that translates the 8 byte integers stored internally (giving you basically unlimited storage) into the same kind of text string they are currently using. I could write something like that in an hour.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:46 | 1548604 Nozza
Nozza's picture

Ascii makes the accounting side of things more straightforward apparently. Anyway, its all been kludged together over time - and built on systems pre '87? "Big Bang", and from when stuff was on ticker tape, telegraph, pen and paper, quill and vellum lol


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:05 | 1548679 MyKillK
MyKillK's picture

You would have thought that after what happened  in 87 they would have upgraded that shit by now.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:22 | 1548502 Apocalypse Now
Apocalypse Now's picture

STFB (Sell Bounce) has replaced BTFD (Buy Dip).

This is the setup I'm looking for. TPTB are pressuring for more easy queesy (QE) and that won't happen unless markets are down. Positioning long (SPY calls) approaching the week leading up to our Labor Day 3 day weekend where B.B. will provide tangible QE details enough to last through the Presidential campaign leading to the election.

Banks around the world are struggling with leverage / liquidity and Obama already said no more bailouts, so they will have to print and call it something different or let the entire system crash. If all the markets drop, consumer confidence will tank more and the real economy will tank. The big banks own the fed, so the fed must support the big banks. I believe this is designed to give political cover for more easing, pressure a longer term debt deal, and advance the idea of the Super Congress to streamline future debt increases (not in chronological order).

Tyler, I like what you've done with the place (layout). For some reason if you are not logged in, the number of comments shown on the front page and the comments available to view do not match when clicking on each post. It will show numerous comments, but then only show a handful of comments. When I logged in all the comments were visible and matched the number on the front page.

Fellow ZH'rs, is also a great site to try and interpret market movements with humor. Each blogger has a different perspective, and if you are an individual investor it can be great to bounce ideas off of others. There is also a fee PPT subscription with excellent tools. I split my time with ZH, Ibankcoin, and a few others.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:22 | 1548503 Mort
Mort's picture

Have you noticed that the women on CNBC get better looking as the market falls?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:58 | 1548640 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

Mort that just means you are drinking to much throughout the day!! ;)

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:28 | 1548525 bmwm395
bmwm395's picture

after the 87 crash it took them somthing like 6 days to match up all the trads. That was only somthing like 9mm shrs traded.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:36 | 1548572 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

do you remember in 1987 on the news that afternoon, it showed some guy down in florida i think somewhere, who was walking down the street , with a double barreled shotgun aimed at the back of  the head of his stock broker, with his thumbs on the hammer.........ha ha ha ha    it  makes me think of pension pulse........

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:31 | 1548547 High Plains Drifter
High Plains Drifter's picture

should i sink or should i swim?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:35 | 1548558 gangland
gangland's picture

 not 100% ron paul, been watcing him for years in houseafter hours, 8 yrs of bush i watched this congressman from frekin texas,


all chris establishment mathews could come up ith on ron paul was????...wait for it...... thirty 1 thousand dollars that he could make hay out of. but it was bs anyway. 31k????? REALLYYY??

chris sppittle, mysogenist, sexist, racist, jingoist methews is PUTRID.


i so hope he dies on air one day. i bet he wants that too, the deperate rag that he is. pathetic.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:35 | 1548565 Cameli
Cameli's picture

What does it take to wake these dickheads at the SEC up? HFT does not add "liquidity". If you have a bucket of water and you slosh it around, all you are doing is sloshing the same quantity of water around. Now if you add water that's different-that's truly adding liquidity. What are these fuckheads wating for? A real disaster to force their hand?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:52 | 1548615 Shock and Aweful
Shock and Aweful's picture

Does it not feel like "TPTB" are losing control?

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:56 | 1548633 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

yes except they have some more sheep numbing tricks up their sleeve still if they need them, including the mother of all qe's.

that'll at least give 'em enough time to get outta dodge.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:04 | 1548673 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Its all scripted. The masses have to reach 90% level before the new implementation process begins. They are counting on more England type scenerios to spread like a raging fire. The next stage will be easier to sell to public.

Try to keep a level head, don't fall into their spider web. Best wishes to all.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 17:52 | 1548620 caerus
caerus's picture

up up down down left right left right b a start! asap!

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:06 | 1548687 Nozza
Nozza's picture

Sorry to put a downer on the excitement lol

There's a spare byte in the message header, at the end, after the date, reserved for "future use". So currently only 23 of the 24 bytes are used. Currently it is filled with a space. But this could be used to increase all sequence numbers by the order of 10. Alternatively a new session ID (instead of just A and U) could be used, but this would mess up other stuff - especially reporting the daily figures of pre and post market.


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 23:19 | 1549742 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

 reserved for "future use". 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

   TODAY would be a great day to make use of that 'reserved' byte ...



Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:16 | 1548722 Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

For the LULZ

Talk about hand signing the moves: this is trending as a hot link today. Chicago? Chicago? Come in Chicago please, the MS drift is killing us here...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:28 | 1548794 macstibs
macstibs's picture

Best comment stream ever...

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 18:46 | 1548860 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

What's up with some of the bank preferreds? Here are some highlights:

HBAN +7.99% (HBANP)

MS +1.86% (MSK)

BCS +1.47% (BCSD)

USB +1.37% (USBY)

WFC +1.12% (WFCJ)

C +0.77% (C-P)

JPM -0.48% (JPMP)

HSBC -0.73% (HBAD)

BAC -2.00% (BACD)

UBS -5.57% (UBSD)

I'll leave it to greater minds than mine to explain this. Also, full list here, which I seemed incapable of imbedding via <a href> and </a>:

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 19:07 | 1548954 fishface
fishface's picture

Just read on Bloomberg...

Hacker Triggers Halt on Hong Kong Exchange


Hong Kong Exchanges & Clearing Ltd., the world’s biggest bourse operator by market value, said it suspended trading for companies including HSBC after its website was hacked.

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 19:13 | 1548978 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

It only takes a second to change a data type, so why don't they just fix it?

Because then they won't have an excuse for closing the market when it drops 1,000 points. 

Wed, 08/10/2011 - 23:23 | 1549748 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

It only takes a second to change a data type, so why don't they just fix it?

- - -  - - -  - - -  - - -  - - -  - - -  - - -  - - -  - - - 

The fan-out to umpteen different using customer units?


Maybe after this weekend -  they can 'test' on Sat and Sun; Alpha custs on  SAt then Beta early on SUn fanout late Sunday eve ...


Wed, 08/10/2011 - 19:41 | 1549087 Barb Dwire
Barb Dwire's picture

My UQDF Channel goes to 11...

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