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For Greece, Bailout Two Is Just The Beginning

Tyler Durden's picture


If one is wondering why Greece Finance Minister Venizelos is scrambling to pass the proposed bill which enacts Greek Bailout #2, without any debate or details, very much like the US Attorneys General passed the robosigning settlement without a robosigning settlement even having been inked, the following excerpt from Section E of the MoU between Greece and the Troika should explain it. Because heaven forbid someone actually ask for details as to just what '€[xxx]' of future funding needs over and above the €320 billion in committed funding means in practical terms, i.e., just how lower the minimum wage is going, how many million more jobs will be lost (in a population of just 11 million), and how soon until pension and retirement benefits go negative. Also, our German friends may be interested to know that funding 136% of Greek GDP in the form of endless "bailouts" (of which 81% goes to shore up bank balance sheets), is just the beginning. We are confident our German PM friend is more than aware of this exit clause which gives her the loophole to opt out of everything all over again.

Full MOU:


h/t George and Athens News


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Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:01 | 2150705 lolmao500
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The government needs to hang if they pass that deal.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:08 | 2150719 Future Tense
Future Tense's picture

Marc Faber was on Fox News this week saying Greece is only the beginning.  He also has turned bullish on US housing saying that he recommends purchasing a $120,000 5 bedroom home and renting the other 4 bedrooms out to concubines.  Apparently he has not seen the shadow inventory graph that Tyler posted earlier this week.  Video here:

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:18 | 2150743 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

he recommends purchasing a $120,000 5 bedroom home

Sorry but that doesn't exist. Maybe in Detroit in the worst neighboorhood, but anywhere else? Forget it.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:27 | 2150757 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

We did it last summer, look around take your time and look in places neighbourhoods that people aren't considering moving to.  Small towns and rural communities is the place to start. Hint if you see a lot of European cars and trendy looking stores and antique shops move on to another village to look.  IF there a lot of people on a saturday or sunday morning jogging or walking purebread dogs (often a labrador) its probably very over priced.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:53 | 2150904 dcb
dcb's picture

if there are cars on the lawn, people are all overweight, or thin and rotten teeth that's a good place to look. Plus confederate flags are a plus as well.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:27 | 2151060 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

You can buy a 5 bedroom house in many parts of the country, in decent neighborhoods, for around that price.

Of course, you can't do that in dense, urban, affluent areas, nor coastal cities.

And of course, the prices on all housing would drop far lower if (when) the Fed & government GSEs quit providing an artificial floor by locking up so much of the excess inventory, much in the forms of vacant, REO properties.

As for Greece, €350 to €450 billion is going to be required just to keep it functioning for the next couple of years. That money will be funded only if there's a net benefit to creditor banks (holding Greek sovereign bonds) that outweighs (redundant: net benefit) the money to be made on derivatives and other hedges from a Greek default.

And then, in a couple/few years, because Greece won't be able to grow its way out of hat-in-hand status, another bailout package will have to be forthcoming.

If those estimates are even roughly correct, and if an inevitable second round of bailouts is inevitable for Greece in a couple/few years, accretive to that initial sum, just imagine how much the rescue of PIIS(+potentially France, or at least France's undercapitalized nationalized banking sector) is going to cost over time.

Greece represents about 1.9% of Eurozone GDP (granted, it has outsized debt vs GDP of 4%, even by PIIGS standards, but stay with me here).

So just imagine what this same process will look like, using far larger numbers, when Spain has to inevitably be rescued, with Spain representing 8.7% of Eurozone GDP, and then Italy (yes, it is inevitable - and will be the make or break moment for the EU, with the question of too-big-to-fail or too-big-to-save as the pertinent one), which represents roughly 13% of Eurozone GDP.

Throw in Ireland & Portugal to the mix, and PIIGS represents a full 26% of Eurozone GDP, and that assumes France isn't teetering on the edge.

So Greece, which represents less than 2% of Eurozone GDP, is already attracting credible estimates of a life support bailout for a few years costing anywhere from €330 to €450, with more of the same in a few years from now.

The numbers get staggering in contemplating anything that actually represents a bailout, of even a few years, of PIIGS.

The only solution to bailing out this block for several years, with no prospect of curing the fundamental defects that brought these nations to this point of utter indebtedness, meaning the process will continually be repeated, is to literally print a sum of € that ensures debasement of European living standards by such a large margin that one couldn't possibly be accused of sensationalism to claim that inflation over the short term (3 to 5 years) will necessarily exceed 40%, as a conservative estimate (i'd argue that it would easily run well past that, but I'm either a pessimist or a realist).

How does the loss of 40% to [I'd argue 50% 60%] of your purchasing power over 3 to 5 years sound, Europeans? Petrol at €2.90 or €3.20 per liter, anyone?

I'm sure that before the EU politicians and technocrats force this through, they'll engage in some incredible claims denying that what I just spoke of will take place, because....well...they have special powers that allow them to defy basic math and economic fundamentals.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:38 | 2151078 trav7777
trav7777's picture

growth growth's not coming back anytime soon.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 19:56 | 2151882 trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

move to nebraska, you get paid to go - 100 acres, or something

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 09:12 | 2153045 Louie the Dog
Louie the Dog's picture

Plus confederate flags are a plus as well.

and a Ron Paul sign in the yard

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:29 | 2150761 Manthong
Manthong's picture

They have to pass stuff to know what's in it.

Sound familiar?

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:43 | 2150794 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Faber was referring to Arizona. I too think he has gone bats. He is still touting the big "reset" that is coming yet still recommends a basket of stocks, bonds, real estate etc.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:27 | 2150864 XitSam
XitSam's picture

My friends bought a 4 BR city home built in '67 in the AZ recently for $250K. Outside the larger cities it may be possible. Would require some looking. Concubines not included.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:07 | 2151000 hack3434
hack3434's picture

Henderson NV and Palmdale CA have a few homes that meet the criteria if you look around. Thing is, now there's a glut of rent properties bought by all that "smart money" that tried to to catch the falling knife in the name of yield.


Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:41 | 2151083 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

If you are tied in with those who are locking up REOs, keeping them off the market generally (government GSEs and too-big-to-fail banks, some of whom are primary dealers), you can buy new (never lived in, maybe 2 to 4 years old) or semi-new (barely lived in) homes in Phoenix, Glendale, Vegas, Henderson, Topeka, Cleveland, Wichita, Portland, Denver, Wisconsin, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Orlando, Alpharetta, Charlotte, etc. etc.) homes, from 1,800 all the way to 3,000 square feet (and up), for $90,000 to $220,000.

Some of these are urban setting, one car garage, vertical units, with little land, while others are nice big ranches on 3/4 acre lots, with all the amenities (granite counters, city water/sewer, full basements, 3 car garages, AC) in proper neighborhoods.

How do I know this? Because banks and GSEs have lists of these properties that they are literally sitting on, available only to particular people in the industry (attorneys, some specialized realtors, and a few mortgage brokers and title shops), that have all the details.

Many of these properties are held by GSEs like Fannie & Freddie, and are of the type that the government is considering renting out en masse, rather than selling, so as to not flood the market with REOs, thus depressing prices further.

Many of these houses are vacant, in nice neighborhoods, with no 'for sale' sign anywhere to be found, with well manicured lawns or weeds growing everywhere. Many of the houses are being lived in by people who haven't made a mortgage payment in years.

All I can say is that I am privy to the database.

The shadow inventory of unlisted, new and relatively new, vacant and occupied homes, that are for all practical purposes REOs is vastly larger than any bank, politician, regulator or realtor will admit.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 16:12 | 2151250 DarkestPhoenix
DarkestPhoenix's picture

Yeah, no kidding.  Rural communities are the bomb.  I bought a beautiful 5 bedroom Victorian in a town of about 9,000 for $58,000.  Cost less than $2,000 to fix it up and move in.

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 00:54 | 2152564 q99x2
q99x2's picture

Mechanicville Pennsylvania is a good spot. It's about 4 hours outside of NYC and right next to Palo Alto. NA has a big presence there.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:18 | 2150744 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Faber has gone bats. I know most here enjoy perspectives of the economic clergy but he's officially out of ideas. He should just Socratically stick to saying the same things about the same things: get yourself some gold and step aside instead of trying to wow with nonsense headlines...

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:27 | 2150756 Future Tense
Future Tense's picture

The inflationists (like Faber) are starting to turn bullish on real estate because they think all assets will move higher nominally.  I don't think they're factoring in the inventory...

or the cost to finance homes when rates rise.  But even Kyle Bass says he only sees about 10% more in price declines, which means we're probably a lot closer to the bottom than the top. 

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:45 | 2150799 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Assets will only move higher in the "inflationist" scenario if wages move higher as well. That does not seem to be the case. For now anyway. This seems like some kind of runaway stagflation starting.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:51 | 2150811 Awakened Sheeple
Awakened Sheeple's picture

Housing has probably or is close to hitting bottom in terms of price declines but we're not going to see an explosion to the upside either. Any price appreciation in housing won't keep up with increase in prices for other "real goods" like commodities, PMs etc.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:52 | 2150852 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

20 million homes in shadow inventory and you think we are close to a bottom?  20% unemployment and you think people will buy houses?  Even Bernanke knows the housing market is about to take another leg down.

Think about it.  Bernanke has already bought Fannie and Freddie and now he is going to buy all the toxic MBS from the Major Banking Houses as they flip it right before the next epic banking failure.  Touting recovery on one hand and continuing the monitization of the finacial system with the other. 

Isn't one hand suppossed to be free? 

Gotta love the Fiat Ponzi!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 15:19 | 2151125 Awakened Sheeple
Awakened Sheeple's picture

Depends how long they can keep the charade going... If the past year has taught us anything, the PPT is not going to let the economy collapse without a fight. They will prop this fucker up for as long as it takes to achieve price STa-BeeeL-eeTY. I would not buy housing as an investment. I am looking at farmland, undeveloped land, lake front property but not housing. Central planning is destroying our economy from the core. If you are renting, I say buy a foreclosure (it beats renting). If you can afford property farther away from urban areas, I say do it now. The truth is the collapse could happen tomorrow or it could happen 10 years from now but it will happen.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 16:42 | 2151297 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

perhaps a 15 year @ 2.75 / 30 year @ 3.67% is a great innovator - ponzi or not - cycles are just that,... cyclicals in perpetual motion

just sayin

Mon, 02/13/2012 - 00:56 | 2152565 q99x2
q99x2's picture

My take two. He hasn't a clue as to where to hide his money during the meltdown.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:08 | 2150721 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Which one?  Because when I see "funding from the IMF" I sort of feel like writing my congressmen.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:10 | 2150727 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

Christine Lagarde for a being a horse faced ugly bitch...oh the stealing from hundreds of millions of people?  Yes that too

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 16:45 | 2151306 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

once she bed's ya - your neutered

greek goat's haven't a chance

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:54 | 2150753 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Then you realized your congressman doesn't know what an IMF is and breathes with his mouth?

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:59 | 2150822 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Makes me want to....

I haven't written my reps for over a year now because I realized it didn't help. 

There is no changing dumb.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:10 | 2150726 Eclipse89
Eclipse89's picture

If it passes then Germany will block it saying "Wtf €[xxx] means? Are you kidding me? No way!"

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:39 | 2150882 stocktivity
stocktivity's picture

It's all about saving the banks...the bailout has nothing to do with the people....rally on!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 20:50 | 2152069 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

they're funding the banks...not the Greek government. This is just horrendous press and elsewhere i might add. Greece get's nothing--though certain Greeks i'm sure are very happy with the details--as with a few Irish "blokes"--"they've skipped town." And country i imagine. So does the government need to hang? "They're idiots"...i agree. Tough question to answer..."how does one explain the no win scenario to the people?" We all like to think of ourselves as "problem solvers"--in reality we aren't however.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:05 | 2150711 BennyBoy
BennyBoy's picture

This too shall pass (in the dead of night)

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:08 | 2150722 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

They will attempt to turn Greece into the political and economic equivalent of an Arab state and if they pull that off then they can try with other European countries and finally towards the USSA. 

The problem with Westerners is the short term thinking, people in poor countries with no futures riot and turn to organized violence more than suburbanites in comfy homes in leafy neighbourhoods.  

Prep your physical and more importantly prep your heart.  Hearts of lionz bitchez

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:11 | 2150728 Olympia
Olympia's picture

Loan sharks knew that if they took the dollars printing machines under their control they could suffocate the world ...they could initially suffocate USA and after taking the USA from the Americans, they could move and suffocate the whole world and take the countries from their people.

FED printed cheap money and loansharking multiplied this money in an unnatural way within the American economy boarders and they discarded them abroad so that they did not threaten USA. USA became the first state in the world with artificial “breathing”...

It cannot be possible but just in the USA for only the last year, more than one million houses were seized. It cannot be impossible but the New World has returned to tents and shelters ..has returned to the ages of Columbus. It cannot be possible that we allow to a few loan sharks looting the toils and the assets of people...


Global Debt Crisis


Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:26 | 2150754 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Gr(EU)ece can pass any law they want to but the Greek people will never follow the law they pass. Your take away from this is that a Greek default will be a calamity on the EU and ECB and that TPTB are not quite ready for a Greek default.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:29 | 2150759 Bansters-in-my-...
Bansters-in-my- feces's picture

FUCK the bankers.....!!!! Time to take our planet back from these fucking Parasites of the earth...... Get off your knees people and turn off your T.V's.

Band together.

Forget the Liberal, Conservative,Democrat ,Republican thing,it's all to sidetrack the sheep,they ALL have the same BOSS......


Who creates the so called "money" with interst attched....?

NOT Your Goverment.....

These fucking number punchers live off of our work and labour.

Get a fucking REAL JOB ,Parasite bankers........

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:54 | 2150815 Olympia
Olympia's picture

Loan sharks knew that if they took the dollars printing machines under their control they could suffocate the world ...they could initially suffocate USA and after taking the USA from the Americans, they could move and suffocate the whole world and take the countries from their people.

FED printed cheap money and loansharking multiplied this money in an unnatural way within the American economy boarders and they discarded them abroad so that they did not threaten USA. USA became the first state in the world with artificial “breathing”...

It cannot be possible but just in the USA for only the last year, more than one million houses were seized. It cannot be impossible but the New World has returned to tents and shelters ..has returned to the ages of Columbus. It cannot be possible that we allow to a few loan sharks looting the toils and the assets of people...


Global Debt Crisis


Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:14 | 2151045 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Which is exactly why Bernanke is going to buy all of their worthless MBS debt.

Capt'n Save a Ho!  That's Bernanke!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:42 | 2150767 dead hobo
dead hobo's picture

I just read the 30 pages, more or less. Funny stuff.

To paraphrase ... "We, the Greeks, plan to form task forces real soon to think and talk about making some big changes at some time in the future. Please give us our money now. Thank you."

And this memo is now the basis for the law being agonized over in Greece's Parliament? Thus, Greeks will be required BY LAW to plan to form task forces to think about making big changes for Greece later this year?

Europeans must be stupid.


Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:17 | 2150938 TeresaE
TeresaE's picture

deadhobo, can you explain to me how our own "deficit talks" are any different?

Thousands of man hours, hundreds of tv hours and tens of thousands of new laws later and all we have managed to do is to "pledge" to not spend quite as much as we were planning on.  Two-ten years from now.

Watching systematic collapse is amusing.  At least it amuses me now, soon very few will have the strength to be amused.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:42 | 2150790 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

Would not be even mildly suprised if some 'pandemic' hits Greece. Might shave 30-40% off the population.

No, I'm not kidding.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:00 | 2150825 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

They're cutting off much of the medicine, many will die as a result of that:

"The measures, which will be voted on in parliament Sunday, include sweeping reforms such as €1.1 billion worth of cuts in pharmaceutical costs, abolishing restrictive rules on tourist guides and opening up Greece's energy market to foreign investment."


Sun, 02/12/2012 - 20:02 | 2151906 trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

CCGT power station in greece with interconnected SE European market + interconnectors into europe is a possible good investment, look at italy, burning oil coz it doesnt have gas.

Mind you neither does greece atm but those pipelines are coming.......

Better still, build a nuclear power station in Greece.  

Did i hear someone say EON just bought some land in Greece?





Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:18 | 2150855 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

I can see it happening. The degraded living conditions will be perfect cover for a controlled release.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:35 | 2150876 smb12321
smb12321's picture

You have obviously never traveled outside the ZH world.   Even now, Greece is 100 times better off than most nations in Africa, Latin America or Asia.  They have food, communications, homes and a tourist industry.  Greece has survived for millenia without medicine, free education or 13th and 14th "extra" payments.   This is what happens when you elect politicians who promise you can live on someone else's dime foreer.  Visit Egypt or Honduras or Bangladesh if you want to see "degraded living conditions".

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:26 | 2150940 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

You completely misunderstood what I said. The Greeks would be perfectly fine on their own, but they aren't on their own. The chaos of a financial collapse instigated by the bankers will cause homelessness. Release a genetically engineered super-bug, kill a few million Greeks and blame it on the squaller they live in (thanks to the bankers). A perfect cover story to reduce the population.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 18:47 | 2151572 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Sorry.  Agree 10000% on being on their own.  Disagree about the bug.  Actually, Greece's brith rate is so low the nation is losing population on its own. I've been to Greece (several times) and while they do not live in McMansions the dwellings are safe & moidern.  If Russia (a 4th world country) can survive, so can Greece.  I repeat, the bankers are only the final nail on the coffin.  The hammer and wood were the Greek people, politicians and the EU.  Anyone with an atom of sense knew that the PIIGS could not compete with the Protestants on their terms.  Ideology triumphs over common sense yet again.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:19 | 2150943 vh070
vh070's picture

Long ouzo?

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:53 | 2150814 Olympia
Olympia's picture

The greatest private fraud of human history.
Who are the great fraudsters who are becoming the murderers of the human kind? How does the economy "illness" threaten Democracy and the freedom of people?
By knowing what happened in indebted Greece, where loan sharks created “bubbles” and the current inhuman debt, one can understand the inhuman plan in total ...understand where this plan started just to bring all states at the same end ...understand how this type of plans are established...

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:43 | 2150888 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Olympia - bubbles are a conseequnce of modern society and instant communications.   Artificially low interest rates lead folks to do crazy things (such as buying stocks with a PE ratio of 200).  People - you, me, anyone - create bubbles when we accept the notion that buyinga popular product is the same as investing. It happens repeatedly in modern industrialized societies because of imedia coverage - from tulips to dot coms to bouses.  If we were to return to the "old days" where folks saved regularaly and got a decent return, much of the bubble industry would be put out of business.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:22 | 2150950 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

if people who borrow "money" are called debtors, and people who lend "money" are called creditors, what do you call a person who does neither?

A (i sure wish i could write upside down!):  nobody

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:39 | 2150973 hairball48
hairball48's picture

"Neither a lender nor a borrower be..."

Polonius from Shakespear's Hamlet

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 20:04 | 2151916 trebuchet
trebuchet's picture

BRILLIANT!!!  THat is what the eurobanks are saying right now :)

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 11:58 | 2150821 max2205
max2205's picture

Well thank God that's done with!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:05 | 2150838 SMG
SMG's picture

Yep, everythings solved, and I'm sure Greece won't be in the news again.  Hurray!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:04 | 2150830 Debugas
Debugas's picture

the question about how much longer or to what extent the spiraling down will continue is essecially the question of sustainability of the society - can the society feed itself without foreign aid and if it can then what is the upper limit of the population size that can feed itself. If energy and other resources flow into greece stops - what will the productivity of agriculture be, are there any exporting enterprises in greece that could buy needed energy and resources from abroad in exchange for its exports ?


So if greece is self sutainable at some level then the spiraling down will stop at that level, the only question is where that level point is (and atm noone really knows)

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 12:49 | 2150900 smb12321
smb12321's picture

I am baffled by all the talk about breakdown and sustainability.   Has no one ever traveled beyond the borders of their house?  Don't they realize that nations in Africa, Asia or Latin America would LOVE to be in Greece's shoes with their modern industrial society and plentiful food.  The fact that Greeks can go on month long strikes and still eat says it all.  As long as there are tourists, a rich ocean and people who work, Greece will not go the way of Chad.  They can't spend as in the past or give 13th and 14th payments for no work but they will survive.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:00 | 2150910 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i s'pose even our dear german friends and their wunnerful PM won't know wtf to do, ever, as long as they aren't told the facts about how much this has already cost them

b/c of the opacity involved and invoked by the banksters, the german people, who are certainly among the handsomest, most intelligent, and hardest working on this planet may have already been reamed beyond their own solvency

as we know, this is the new "global edibility" of DEBT = Money question, itself, techno-crapperZ!

merkel is looking @ (paste):  this exit clause which gives her the loophole to opt out of everything all over again.

"radical" as slewie-thought may seem to those who suckle daily at the MSM nipple. it does seem to yers trooly that if germany desires any "final solution" or, alternately,  is politically attracted to such a "regressive" ideal as control over its own nation, maybe it better consider going it alone from here

this "loophole" may actually = noose

but why tf should anybody, especially in the EU, listen to slewie?  just b/c almost nobody up to this point has been able to figure out the correct play or stcik to it if they can see what to do [think US bankster-owner & operated "laeadership"], germany can get caught in this and make THE right decision because, well, it's a-gonnna be different this tyme, riiiight?  L0L!!!

the only thing is, does germany still have the option to leave the collectivist farce of a wet-dream known as the EU?  if not, then yes, this is all they can do:  keep repeating their "terms" for bailing out the others which, of course, will not be "met", while germany is slowly and methodically looted and sacked by the internationalBankster, just like everybody else who can't or won't protect themselves from this horrid scourge b/c of fear, cowardice, and collectivist councilOnForeignRelations-type brain-washing

welcome to america, BiCheZ!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:40 | 2150974 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

slewie, before the first world war, the assumption was that whenever a war was fought - and we Europeans were very fond of wars - the loser would pay the costs for the victor. This just to remember how cheap wars were those days.

but then, after two WWs, financed through this incredibly powerful mechanism that is a fiat-based-fractional-banking-system, we have a "situation". our first world accounting is completely "agreed on", a convention, a collective dream, an perhaps impossible agreement.

now, your suggestion to Germany would have some merit if there were not those pesky agreements and this stupid history

Germany can't leave NATO and is not willing to lose diplomatic ground by ever even been percieved as not putting effort in the EU and the EZ.

There is one country on this world that could lead us to a completely different set of agreements, and it's the USA.

The EU and the EZ are nothing else than mechanisms to make the best out of the fact that the US is the hegemon of the world. And they have some quite clear uses that you might not perceive if you don't live here.

The hegemon has currently an influentia of robberbankers. Short of funding a pro-european-but-anti-bankster party in your political process (would be illegal, I fear) I don't know what we Europeans are supposed to do...

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:10 | 2151036 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'There is one country on this world that could lead us to a completely different set of agreements, and it's the USA.'

Absurd. The philosophy of Empire doesn't amend itself from within. The mirage, formerly known as America, that you believe you see, is incapable of introspection. It's now a place special interests groups go to gain influence over the world. 

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:46 | 2151085 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


the idea that anybody can D0 anything about this is fading fast isn't it?  even nancyPelosi has slowed down!

perhaps people will be more open to some different thoughts, now

heluva long-shot play, brownie!

or at least begin to enjoy the idea that altho they are nowhere near so smart and powerful as they had been imagining, these other shitheds are really in a class by themselves, eh? 

after they finish trying to kill each other over the collective delusion that [debt = money] and perhaps also stop putting quite so much trust in 'authority' which pretty clearly doesn't have a fuking clue, here, and may have been in said condition for longer than people could even imagine

or care to admit...  as your thoughtful post intimates...

maybe america will finish waking up and embrace its own terminal insanity?  who knows?

but then again, if it's the debt, stupid, then it's the debt, stupid! 

if no one knows "how" to get rid of the stuff and/or the zombiePonzi TBTFs where it goes to ground then whether one calls them fascist corporations or fascist countries makes a big diff? 

i think many people must already realize what "we" are gonna end up doing with this hoooey, and what "we" are gonna use for "money" instead after we take care of #1, there, but i guess the "quality" of the hoooey will still take another generation or two to "evaluate" so, as soon as that's done, we can proceed...  Hahaha!

until then, buy some PMs and enjoy the near-free popcorn!

we've all pretty much fallen for the same con, but we can still play cards & maybe catch a buzz and get kinky or something. a movie?   watch 'figtingfiniMinisInClownCars'? again?  L0L!!!  i'm ready to put them in monster trucks and run them thru the FIRE!!!  L0L!!!

maybe worry about the chinese or the iranians or israelis or whether stPaul will escape from damascus in a basket in time to preach to the ephesian silversmiths before going to rome as a "prisoner"

who knows?  you have fine day, G!

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:14 | 2150930 iamtheeggman wh...
iamtheeggman whooooooooooooo's picture

Acropolis Now

The horror... the horror

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:19 | 2150941 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

I am an X-ray tech. I work in a large hospital. I am surrounded by reasonably well educated people, certainly by average American standards. Almost none could tell you what caused the recession, why Greece is in the news, what the acronym PIIGS stands for, what the world reserve currency is, what the STOCK Act legislation was about, or come within $1000 of the price of gold (per ounce).

On the other hand, almost all could tell you about the latest celebrity breakups, who won the Superbowl, name the entire cast of Jersey Shore, name the last 3 years winners of American Idol.

China has been buying up gold, and quietly making side deals to have theirs made the world reserve currency. They are opening up their own precious metals market to allow the price of gold to rise, apparently America has been trying to keep it down. America (supposedly) is the worlds largest holder of gold. (Why wouldn't we want the price of gold to rise, wouldn't that offset the massive "printing" we've been doing?) All the while, our "leaders", left and right, are only concentrating on legislation that protects their personal investments.

I have decided the ONLY thing I can do is to stay informed (relative to the BS we are afforded by our media) and invest accordingly. We will never come up with a cure that is enacted, because our agenda is different than the world's legislators.




Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:29 | 2150956 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture





This must be a canned draft writing they prepared for different scenarios.  Even the Date February [x], 2012 is not completed.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:32 | 2150962 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Or they're just so confused with the astronomical numbers they can't even place a date on this document.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:42 | 2150980 dracos_ghost
dracos_ghost's picture


Unless they went back to the Roman numeral system.

Gee, ya think my bank would accept a letter saying," Dear Banksta, I will need $[xxxxxxxx] more on my credit line to buy the upcoming iPad3 and go on vacation for 10weeks. I will agree to pay $[x] until my debt is down to 120% of my income by 2020 which I will consider getting my debt under control. This assumes that I still have a job in this shit market with no end in sight and my home is not 20 feet under water."

The upside is Greece will disappear from the news. Hello Italy.



Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:44 | 2150984 vh070
vh070's picture

If Greece could do all that they promise to do they wouldn't be in this predicament in the first place.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:03 | 2151020 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

They are fables for doltish North Europeans

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:50 | 2150993 Tom Green Swedish
Tom Green Swedish's picture

These government geeks are like the mafia of the Political world. They just sit there and demand money. And these idiots keep giving to them to fudn their party lifestyles. This letter is more like an extortion.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:02 | 2151015 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

They are The Mafia

The Spoils System rules. Stop looking for analogies this is how the system functions and anyone in Russia or China or Syria or Kenya will tell you so. Why are you naive ?

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 13:52 | 2150997 JustACitizen
JustACitizen's picture

What a great idea - buy more house than you need - even if it is cheap so that the local government and various taxing bodies have a continuous flow of funds to rely upon. It's even better when you finance that purchase - because you can afford the payment. Geez, didn't anyone learn anything?

As for the Greeks - they are just screwed. Of course, so are we. I mean, EPIC amounts of fiat are changing hands and yet nothing is getting must be because everyone knows what the fiat is actually worth...

Someone is getting paper rich.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:12 | 2151012 virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

Just some paper pushing as Greece goes to full revolt.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:54 | 2151041 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

The Greeks are abandoning their pricy vehicles because they are getting tagged for taxes.

Why not look at all the developed property?

Jewelry stores to be monitored next.



Sun, 02/12/2012 - 18:14 | 2151471 Olympia
Olympia's picture

Criminal bankers stuck a “tube” in the Greek economy ...a “tube” connecting Greece to the international circuit of loan sharks in an uncontrolled way. This was tragic. Why is that? Because criminals interfered with its “breathing” in a criminal way by not financing the development of the Greek economy. They turned its “breath” into a financially profitable activity. They funded the “bubble” of real-estates by giving housing loans. It is a political crime that the world has never seen before, that is the private banks were allowed to borrow money from foreign loan-sharks to fund the internal housing market.


Due to bankers’ greed, the real-estate “bubble” was not enough. In order to make greater profit, they “took down” what the previous generations of Greeks strived to build to offer it to their descendants. Whenever a Greek had to cover a need, created by his/her human nature, these rogues got involved. They took down the public education system, in order to sell loans for the “bubble” of private education. They took down the public health system, in order to sell loans for the “bubble” of private hospital care. In whatever the previous Greek generation invested tons of money so that the Greek people “breath” freely, these beast tore it down so that they could “spoil” it that Greeks would be indebted to foreign loan sharks for the basic functions of the Greek society.
To avoid banks collapse, the state is “sunk” and lead by the loan sharks like lambs to the slaughter. To prevent the loansharking “anvil”, that threatens us with “drowning”, from getting wet, we raise it high above, and therefore it is us who get sunk. This is the way the private debt gets transformed into public. The private –and so harmless- debt gets transformed into public –and so dangerous for our survival- debt. Instead of the loan sharks to tremble for their safety, due to the failure of their private customers to pay them back, people tremble for their safety because countries undertake this “burden" and they can pay them back at the expense of their people. Do you understand what are we talking about? Using an illegal and disastrous method, loan sharks got into the Greek society and made it pay for its “breathing”. However, this unreasonable act becomes the ultimate nightmare for the public instead of threatening those breaking the law. Those who illegally received loans -just because they “existed”- should have stopped paying them back and therefore the problem should have ended there, instead, it "gets transferred" and it becomes a public problem. Why is that? Because the state can pay. Because the idiot's damage, who took loans to buy an overvalued house, a luxurious car and to have luxurious vacations does not damage the criminal loan shark who gave the money, but it is turned into state loan. ____________ by PANAGIOTIS TRAIANOU

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:14 | 2151044 jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

[xxx] Insert here.


That's what she said.


I was looking up historical Greek Defaults and that Greek Finance Minister's name Venizelos came up again.

Is he in the same family as this 1930's Eleftherios Venizelos who defaulted on Greece's debts?  (Yes, I hate it when people ask if you're in same family as others who have the same last name)


"The Great Depression however hit Greece, as a poor country dependent on agricultural exports, particularly hard. Matters were made worse by the closing off of emigration to the United States, the traditional safety-valve of rural poverty. High unemployment and consequent social unrest resulted, and the Communist Party of Greece made rapid advances. Venizelos was forced to default on Greece's national debt in 1932, and he fell from office after the 1932 elections, being succeeded by a monarchist coalition government led by Panagis Tsaldaris of the People's Party. Two failed Venizelist military coups followed in an effort to preserve the Republic in 1933 and 1935, but they had the opposite effect. On 10 October 1935, a few months after he suppressed the second attempt in March 1935, Georgios Kondylis, the former Venizelist stalwart, abolished the Republic in another coup, and declared the monarchy restored. A rigged plebiscite confirmed the regime change (with an unsurprising 97.88% of votes), and King George II returned."

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:38 | 2151071 virgilcaine
virgilcaine's picture

for the record Doctor Fabre has lost it.!  Hi Yld REITS at multi yr hi in A Depression YES!  Hong kong shares.. yes.  He was slithering around the Phx re market too funny.

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 14:55 | 2151095 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Kind of like our national debt:  $[XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX,XXX]

Sun, 02/12/2012 - 18:03 | 2151444 dannyboy
dannyboy's picture

Tyler, what was the need for the subordination article if Greece is just gonna get perpetually bailed out?

I thought Greece was gonna default?

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