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Greece Draws The Line As Unity Government Leaders Refuse To Cede To Further Troika Austerity Demands

Tyler Durden's picture




 

It appears that Greece will not even have to wait until the dreaded March 20 funding D-Day. As was earlier reported, Greek PM Lucas Papademos may resign if he is unable to persuade his coalition unity government to agree to further Troika demands for additional austerity. It now appears that there will be no agreement, and thus the primary demand from the Troika for further cash disbursement will not be met. The FT reports: "All three party leaders in Greece’s teetering national unity government have opposed new austerity measures demanded by international lenders, forcing eurozone finance ministers to postpone approval of a new €130bn bail-out and moving the country closer to a full-blown default. Representatives of the so-called “troika” – the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund – have demanded further cuts in government jobs and severe reductions in Greek salaries, including an immediate 25 per cent cut in the €750 minimum monthly wage, before agreeing the new rescue. But representatives of all three coalition partners, including centre-left Pasok of former prime minister George Papandreou and the centre-right New Democracy of likely successor Antonis Samaras, said they were unwilling to back the government layoffs." Now we have been here before, and as a reminder the last time Greece threatened to pull out of Europe with the G-Pap referendum threat back in the fall, G-Pap was promptly replaced with the Trilateral Commission member and former ECB Vice President, Lucas Papademos. The problem is that for him to obtain power, he needed to form a coalition government. Well, that now appears to be in tatters, as not one party is willing to break to the Greeks that the minimum wage of €750 will be cut even further. The question is who will blink first this time, as it is quite likely that neither the Troika nor Greece want an out of control default. Unless, of course, this was Germany's plan B to the imposition of a Greek commissar all along...

More from the FT:

In addition, a Greek government official said the EU and IMF negotiators rejected a counter-proposal that would have frozen Greek wages for three years and cut social security contributions by 10 per cent.

 

Without approval of the new bail-out within a matter of days, Athens is at risk of defaulting on a €14.5bn bond that comes due on March 20. Many eurozone officials fear such a default could reignite panic in European bond markets, pushing Italy and Spain back into danger.

 

The standoff in Athens has angered officials in eurozone creditor countries, particularly in those that have retained their triple A credit ratings and will be leant on most heavily to provide new Greek aid.

 

Finance ministers from the four remaining triple As – Germany, the Netherlands, Finland and Luxembourg – met in Berlin on Friday where they agreed that Athens must move quickly or they would withhold assistance.

 

“We want no further delays,” Jan Kees de Jager, the Dutch finance minister, said after the meeting.

 

Eurozone finance ministers had hoped to meet on Monday in Brussels to sign off on the new bail-out, but officials cancelled the gathering on Friday. Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg prime minister who serves as chairman of the group, issued a statement saying only that the meeting “may be scheduled later in the week”.

Kathimerini with the pre-story:

Papademos is expected to meet PASOK’s George Papandreou, New Democracy’s Antonis Samaras and Giorgos Karatzaferis of the Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS) on Saturday. The three politicians will have to agree on measures that will satisfy Greece’s lenders and pave the way for a new bailout.

 

However, a number of sticking points remain. One of the main issues on which the party leaders are finding it difficult to agree is the private sector wage reductions that are being demanded by the troika of the European Commission, European Central Bank and International Monetary Fund.

 

Sources told Kathimerini that the troika is demanding that the minimum wage of 751 euros per month (gross) be reduced and that labor costs in the private sector drop by 25 percent in a bid to help Greece regain competitiveness.

 

Labor unions and employers wrote to Papademos on Friday to inform him that they cannot agree on a wage cut.

 

Papademos needs the agreement of the political leaders so the prospect of Greece receiving a new bailout can be discussed at the meeting of eurozone finance ministers on Monday.

 

Greece will have to set out the measures it plans to take over the next two years to reform its economy and create a primary budget surplus as well as the framework for the debt restructuring agreement with its bondholders.

 

Skai TV and radio reported on Friday that should the leaders fail to agree a deal, Papademos will tender his resignation on Monday.

And so on. To say that by now the market may well surge, however briefly, out of pure delight that Greece has finally defaulted, may not be a stretch. Of course, the "however briefly" period will shortly thereafter end, leaving Europe with few things to look forward to aside from complete disintegration of the union and its currency. But at least US banks will be fully insulated to that "contingency" which is increasingly looking like a "certainty."

 

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Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:04 | 2123954 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Refuse to lose, bitchez!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:09 | 2123987 doomz78
doomz78's picture

So will they default..  Credit default swaps.   Bank contagion vs insanity.  Who will win?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:14 | 2124013 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

insanity is the sensible choice.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:23 | 2124072 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

War it is, then!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:28 | 2124091 thetruth
thetruth's picture

completely unrelated, but tfmetals has been down for a while now

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:19 | 2124274 trav7777
trav7777's picture

Let the GREEKS pay for it if they want all these benefits.

otherwise, fuckem

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:42 | 2124335 VanillAnalyst
VanillAnalyst's picture

You have to admire the fucking balls on these people though. So out of touch.

Dear Greece, your credit is already fucked. If the ECB wants to pour money down a drain, FUCK EM, sign the austerity package, wait 3 months, and do whatever the hell you want. Teach the Troika how sick it is to be a bad borrower.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:57 | 2124400 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

Meanwhile, via the Twilight Zone:

02-03 14:48: Greek government official says talks with Troika going well

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:10 | 2124730 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Since yesterday afternoon.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:28 | 2124094 battle axe
battle axe's picture

"But first lets ring fence those banks" Germany/France.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:37 | 2124121 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Zombie bank mark to pixie dust vs. hedge fund CDS, bitchez!  It all goes down this weekend.

Hat tip, Tyler!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:02 | 2124942 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

I hope you're right 'cause I added 50% to my short positions today.

Even if there is some kind of bullshit agreement by Monday, people should sell the news.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 08:21 | 2126243 economics1996
economics1996's picture

But, but, but, we have green shoots, look at the employment picture!!!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:49 | 2124366 Mountainview
Mountainview's picture

It hasn't to be war, in Barcelona they are starting by refusing to pay public transport for a first!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:11 | 2124474 Matt
Matt's picture

Vote Cthulu 2012!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:12 | 2124000 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Greece!! We stand united with you, light that fire and let's get this party started!!

Could it be that Greece becomes the center of the re- birth of civilization?

I am going to have a Gyro today in a show of solidarity.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:43 | 2124143 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

I'll take the other side of that bet. Greece becomes the center of the birth of financial neofeudalism.

The only fire I see is the 1st Annual Bankers and Bureaucrats Greek Asset Auction Firesale. Bargain-basement prices! Everything must go! We're gonna party like its 999.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:02 | 2124203 battle axe
battle axe's picture

Greece: "Can I have some Lubrication please kind sir?" Germany: "No Lube for you!"

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 21:56 | 2125688 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Our stock market is in it's own little world, it truly is.  When Greece goes, it will cascade into Europe and even into the US.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:04 | 2123955 SilverRhino
SilverRhino's picture

Greece:   Molon Labe ... our drachmas .... bitchez!!!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:05 | 2123961 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Why the fuck is this news?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:14 | 2124019 cossack55
cossack55's picture

The SuperBowl pregame shit has not started yet.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:30 | 2124101 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Nice... Sunday at half-time the performer will break the news right after the performance.

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:14 | 2124492 Matt
Matt's picture

Nah, it will be a scrolling text feed at the bottom during the half-time show.

But seriously, they want to cut minimum wage from around $1000 per month down to around $750 per month? How many hours for that many dollars? What are rent rates like there? Holy crap, at those levels I don't think I could afford to work, might as well go live in the mountains.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:05 | 2123963 kaiten
kaiten's picture

auf Wiedersehen, Griechenland

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:55 | 2124178 ghengis86
ghengis86's picture

Nein, Nein, Nein.  Es ist, "Alle Ihre Akropolis gehort uns"

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:17 | 2124260 Quantitative_Ap...
Quantitative_Appeasing's picture

Ja, Sehr gut! Unsere Panzer haben jetzt ein Platz zu sommern!!!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:05 | 2123964 Irish66
Irish66's picture

I'm so confused and dazed.  I can't take any more.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:26 | 2124087 The Limerick King
The Limerick King's picture

 

 

Someone please pass the blue pill

These Kleptos are breaking my will

I need to return

And try to unlearn

The shit that keeps giving me chills!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:57 | 2124186 Randall Cabot
Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:05 | 2123965 adr
adr's picture

HAHAHAHAHHA

But the USA "created" 243k jobs in January so everything is fine.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:30 | 2124100 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Everything's good.. there's a football game on this weekend.

Party hardy.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:30 | 2124304 espirit
espirit's picture

Sugar VAT, bitchez.  Tax at will.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:09 | 2123974 CClarity
CClarity's picture

Fatigue, complacency, and then will come the shock to the system.  And it won't be Greece.  That will be glossed over.  It'll be something "unexpected".  Like WW3 as that is really the way to get out of this economic mess with "everyone" on board.  Iran/Israel?  China/Krzkstan? Russia/Germany?  US/Syria?  Occupied/gated communities?  What do you think?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:19 | 2124046 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Bullish

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:08 | 2123976 Jason T
Jason T's picture

from folks at LaRouche:

LAROUCHEPAC:

Greek Archbishop: Troika's Policies Are Destroying Greek Nation February 3, 2012 • 9:25AM

In an extraordinary move, Archbishop Ieronymos, Greece's highest religious authority, today issued an impassioned denunciation of the austerity policies being forced on Greece by the EU-ECB-IMF Troika. The Archbishop, who up until now has only issued guarded statements in an attempt to avoid controversy, openly stated that these policies are destroying the Greek nation and Greek people.

"Homelessness and even hunger — phenomena seen during the [Second World] war — have reached nightmare levels. ... A sense of patience among Greeks is running out, giving way to a sense of anger, and the danger of a social explosion can no longer be ignored," Ieronymos wrote in a letter to Prime Minister Lucas Papademos. The Archbishop went on, today, that "pensions were cut, while day laborers are in despair and insecurity has found a nest inside every single Greek household....

"It seems clear now that our homeland's drama will not finish here but may take on new, uncontrollable dimensions," he wrote. "We must all understand the feeling of insecurity, desperation and depression in every Greek home. This, unfortunately, is continuing to cause suicide among those who can no longer stand the drama in their family and the suffering of their children.

"There are, at the moment, demands for even tougher, more painful, and even more unfair measures along the same ineffective and unsuccessful lines as in our recent past. There are demands for even bigger doses of a medicine which is proving deadly. ... And what is likely to follow are more painful, more unjust measures in the same hopeless and unsuccessful course of our recent past.

"There are demands for commitments that do not solve the problem but only put off temporarily the foretold death of our economy. Meanwhile, they put our national sovereignty up for collateral. They mortgage our wealth, but also the wealth we could obtain from our land and seas. They mortgage freedom, democracy, and national dignity."

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:11 | 2123998 qussl3
qussl3's picture

How the fuck do Greek bankers and pols sleep at night.

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:15 | 2124021 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

well, i don't know how they do it there but here in the states they do it together.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:31 | 2124106 aheady
aheady's picture

Indeed!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:16 | 2124029 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Drugs from GS.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:21 | 2124058 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Armed guards?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:41 | 2124133 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

With a lot of security details on the grounds.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:29 | 2124097 Eric L. Prentis
Eric L. Prentis's picture

Archbishop Ieronymos, screw the banksters, save your county and people.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:56 | 2124183 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Congrats Greece, your highest religious stooge is a delusional socialist demagogue. Just like all your other leaders. And your people too.

Sic transit gloria Graeciae.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:03 | 2124207 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

trolololololo much?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:16 | 2124256 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

How so?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:21 | 2124281 trav7777
trav7777's picture

then let the greeks WORK instead of lounging around in cafes collecting their government paychecks!

If Greece doesn't like the euro, let them see how much better their credit is on the drachma which they printed to oblivion repeatedly.

This is a deadbeat nation.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:23 | 2124290 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

     flag as junk

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 19:53 | 2125363 trav7777
trav7777's picture

flag you as a fuckin moron.

The notion that the greeks should work?  HELL NO, right?  They should lounge around collecting government paychecks paid for by someone else.

WTF is the matter with you?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:33 | 2124315 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

They need a black leadership council & caucus...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:24 | 2124713 akak
akak's picture

Unsterilized, of course, and preferably direct from Africa, so that they can gape in wonder at the Greek water systems and rolling wheels, never having invented nor used any such things themselves, naturally, being the obvious low IQ, sexually ravenous "failed race" that they are.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:50 | 2124892 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

Wow, just wow... you guys never fail to amaze me with the depths you can plumb

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:55 | 2124922 akak
akak's picture

Wow, just wow --- the cluelessness of many of you guys, and your thick-headed inability to recognize satire and the tongue-in-cheek mocking of a previous poster's offensive statements, never fails to amaze me.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 19:52 | 2125357 trav7777
trav7777's picture

wait...you were mocking me by making true statements?  GFD you are stupid.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 19:55 | 2125367 akak
akak's picture

Go help your "failed races", LOL.

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 16:36 | 2127069 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

Didn't realise it was sarcasm.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 19:51 | 2125353 trav7777
trav7777's picture

since you're on it, why didn't blacks have the wheel?  whitey stole it from them?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:19 | 2124519 Matt
Matt's picture

If they switch to Drachmas at a value of around 10 drachmas to the dollar, and the prices are the same as here, but in Drachmas, I for one am totally going on vacation there. $10 hotel rooms, $2 meals, $0.50 for beer and wine ... that'd stimulate their economy a bit, I reckon. They won't be able to import anything, but that's better for trade deficits anyways.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:08 | 2123981 Cdad
Cdad's picture

Market to surge on sovereign insolvency, default, and economic collapse, bitchez!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:10 | 2123992 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Now you're starting to get it...

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:14 | 2124012 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

...just look at GM today.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:23 | 2124067 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

I'd rather not.

Short at your own peril, I'm sure there are bail-outs for that depending on who you know.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:08 | 2123985 loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Why is anyone still dicking around with these lazy bums and banker crooks?  Simple, default, let the banker bond-holders take it Greek style and get it over with!

 

Did France surrender to Germany again yet??

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:18 | 2124037 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Pending.  Still issuing rubber rifles (won't scratch when dropped).

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:24 | 2124057 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Yes! Trigger them fuckin' CDS's and let the fireworks begin.

Take that Globalist/Collectivist/Eugenic NWO pigs...I mean, technocrats.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:26 | 2124295 bdc63
bdc63's picture

there is absolutely zero chance of the CDS's being triggered.  the bankers will not let that happen.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:02 | 2124428 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Well, ultimately that will be decided by the Greeks and not the Unelected
"Technocrats". And it now appears they have made up their mind.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:24 | 2124538 Matt
Matt's picture

You obviously haven't been paying attention. The banks that sold the CDS are the ones who sit on the ISDA commitee and determine if something is a Credit Event or not.

So if your bank had to pay out $100 Trillion dollars if a Greek default is considered a credit event, would you vote yes, it is a credit event, or vote no, they voluntarily chose not to pay, so it is not an event?

Keep in mind, your bonus relies on a "no" vote. Your base pay is $100,000 and if you get the bonus, it is $10 million.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:32 | 2124574 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Again, it is not about accounting at that point. 100% os Zero is still Zero.

If they declare this I a non - triggering event, the scam will be revealed.

Just because these fools declare something does not make it so, come on now son.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:15 | 2124759 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Your a funny guy, you expect this piddly nation to take down the worldwide ponzi as a result o f the CDS triggering, ha..  Yeah that contract, law, custom will be rolled up real tight and stuffed up whomever complains.  You need to pay attention son, their ain't no law high enough to indict, no ocean deep enough to drown this ponzi.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:55 | 2124893 crazyjsmith
crazyjsmith's picture

Yes, I do see your point, and I agree that this monster ponzi takes bigger turds than Greece, however you are thinking in a linear fashion.
This problem is SO big, that very small changes can have HUGE ramifications, it's called chaos theory, and you should check it out.

Inflation? deflation? Dollar correlating with Gold one day, then not. Bullish rallies on Hope of a Greek default? Yeah, go ahead and apply logic to this.

You think these Globalist Sociopaths, I mean , Technocrats ever forecasted their precious little Euro being on the verge of collapse? I am thinking their Hubris got in the way of them seeing this problem.

For proof of my latest point, I Give you the Honorable Mr. Corzine.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:49 | 2125127 Doña K
Doña K's picture

I have posted this before.

Greece is waiting for Portugal, Ireland or Spain to go first. Greece can be contained for longer, but when the others are about to explode, there are not enough digits in the ECB's or Bernanke's computers to handle this.

War is coming and it ain't gonna be pretty, no matter who you are. The US is the last mega power who allows citizens to carry guns. All of you should rely on the good old boys to get enough of this nonsence and rid the US and the rest of the world from the rotten corrupt politicians, banksters, globalist, pretentious limouzine liberals and the like.

You have been warned.

There will be no drastic changes unless there are drastic steps taken by the people themselves. No white knights arround anywhere. Vamos

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 21:16 | 2125584 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

CJS, we agree more than disagree.  Chaos / black swan theory is certainly a concern and noted. My point is the counterpoint, Corzine is not in jail the rule of law failed the US completely.  As an aside, I would like one bammy licker to give me an example of civil / criminal law failing us in another presidency quite as spectacularly as in this administration. 

 In these times to have him (corzine) free is the biggest clearest sign that there is no rule of law, just the rule of connected men.  Yes they are all psycho, but they are well connected psychopaths beyond our reach for now..

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:26 | 2124085 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

You mean Sarko being pegged by Merkel? 'Probably already happened. You don't want to see the videos.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:10 | 2123989 Catequil
Catequil's picture

This Greek debt negotiations issue - you gotta know the Greeks mentality and you will realize there will be a deal at the end. It's just their nature to bargain and bluff and be slippery till the last possible second and beyond. But that's just my opinion.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:54 | 2125145 Doña K
Doña K's picture

That can happen in the land of Odysseus, but the politicians who will sell the Greek people down the river, will not survive to explain why they did it.

Vamos Griegos

Tue, 02/07/2012 - 13:39 | 2134366 Catequil
Catequil's picture

:))) excellent reference to Odysseus and not another ancient Greek!!!!!!

Thank you! That character just strengthens my point!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:17 | 2123990 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

Portugal is watching...

Portugal has been discreetly sounding out advisers on options to restructure its debt. Although the government has yet to formally appoint any firm, IFR has learnt that ministers have been watching developments in Greece closely with a view to replicating elements of any final agreement.  IFR-today[http://www.ifre.com/portugal-pressed-to-restructure/20046599.article]

I guess they don't follow ZH...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/portugal-reenters-bailout-radar-traders-re...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:10 | 2123993 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Didn't G-Pap threaten to resign too. How'd that work out...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:56 | 2124181 Red Raspberry
Red Raspberry's picture

GS couldn't find a

volunteer.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:12 | 2123995 cossack55
cossack55's picture

"of the so-called "troika"--- EuroSatan, EuroChairSatan and InternationalMoneychangerSatan.......

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:11 | 2123997 Eally Ucked
Eally Ucked's picture

It looks to me that they feel markets are properly conditioned to Greek default, and they want it. The focus will shift to Portugal now. Delevaraging proceeds as it supposed to.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:16 | 2124027 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

it's already priced in...or...bullish...I forget which.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:24 | 2124062 resurger
resurger's picture

Kratos coming soon ....

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:46 | 2124154 Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

To earth's remotest limit we come, to the Scythian land, an untrodden solitude. And now, Hephaestus, yours is the charge to observe the mandates laid upon you by the Father—to clamp this miscreant upon the high craggy rocks in shackles of binding adamant that cannot be broken. For your own flower, flashing fire, source of all arts, he has purloined and bestowed upon mortal creatures. Such is his offence; for this he is bound to make requital to the gods, so that he may learn to bear with the sovereignty of Zeus and cease his man-loving ways.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:12 | 2124001 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

I guess the option is either 563 Euros a month or 563 drachmas.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:15 | 2124023 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

The exchange rate is gonna be a bitch...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:23 | 2124066 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

That said, once they are firewalled and unable to issue debt because of the 95% haircut on their outstanding bonds, they actually stand a chance of restarting, once the riots, arson, looting, gang rape and beheading phase of the chaos passes.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:07 | 2124221 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

You guys still don't get it.

There is no restart.

They burn 400,000 barrels of brent priced oil per day.  That adds up to 5% of GDP sent out of the country each year.

No one can endure that and succeed.  

There is no fix for these problems.  They are forever.  Society devolves forever to zero now.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:30 | 2124565 Matt
Matt's picture

Bullish! Long Oats, Ox carts!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:12 | 2124739 akak
akak's picture

"Bring out your dead ...... bring out your dead ......."

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:07 | 2124984 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

Who doesn't import X barrels of oil per day?
And besides, have you heard of biofuels? Olive oil?
Just kidding, but you're too pessimistic.

I think what's indicative of the future here is a 25% pay cut (the troika's request) OR a 25% (or more) lower drachma.

Sun, 02/05/2012 - 21:19 | 2129617 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

The good news is that once the riots-cum-civil war is over with, rebuilding the nation from the smoking, gutted ruins of the cities will make for AWESOME economic growth rates!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:37 | 2124123 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

Zerohedge did calculate exchange rate recently... was it 20:1?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:12 | 2124004 frosty zoom
frosty zoom's picture

OPA!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:14 | 2124018 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

If anybody believes that a person in Greece can live on 562.50 Euro per month...then they are either an idiot or an economist (yes, that's redundant, I know).

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:33 | 2124577 Matt
Matt's picture

One can be an idiot without being an economist. Besides, idiot comes from Greek word "private person": one who voluntarily abstains from politics and the democratic process.

Imbecile might be a better term: One must either be an economist, or an imbecile.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:11 | 2124995 Non Passaran
Non Passaran's picture

I'm not so sure about that. Do their neighbors (Bulgaria, etc.) make more? A quick search on Google says average pay in Bulgaria is less than E400.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 20:07 | 2125391 kanenas
kanenas's picture

Let's forget about the standard of living. SUpposedly the Greeks should take a hit and probably survive it.

 

Check the real estate prices in the rest of the balkans. They can survive on a lower wage, but housing cost is significantly lower.

Drop the wage 25%, keep the loans intact and you got deadly mix. 

 

Now, exit EUR, and let the thing slide down to a new equilibrium.

Imports will drop, 'defence' orders from Germany/France will be cancelled, it will be more urgent to dig for Gas a'la Cyprus, exports will rise, tourism will follow. 

 

Only problem? The ourstanding debt. If Greeks exit the EUR now, bond holders will get a haircut AND paid in New Drachmas (for the GReek law bonds). If they get the PSI pill, the bonds will be too high to pay with the New Drachmas and fail again in a matter of few years.

 

My guess? Papadimos is out on Monday, latest next week.

Reason: elections period in Greece is about 30 days. Count down from the March deadline, and leave a week for the PM of the people's choice to finish the people's wish. Yes. Now is the time.

In these 30 days, and due to the Polls indicating an Exit_EUR decision, Portugal will be iunder pressure. Unless Troika decides to change its tune (not that this is a good thing) then we will see a coordinated Exit Stage Left.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:15 | 2124020 The trend is yo...
The trend is your friend's picture

I certainly hope this is the last rope a dope to lure as many suckers in as possible.  The Market makes a monkey out of the maximum number of participants a maximum number of times.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:17 | 2124030 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Greece reaches its elastic limit. Thankfully ! Pursuing this farce much longer simply to keep the US Administration and the French President clear of facing facts in an election year is criminally absurd. If Bankers want their money they should eat their bonuses and sell their yachts and houses. They made a series of stupid and moronic decisions that have rendered them insolvent. Nations do not indemnify banks from the consequences of their folly - and the fact that Goldman and JPMOrgan Chase OWN Obama and Congress has no traction. This is the REAL World and it is time the drug addicts in the banking system realised they are going down

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:26 | 2124090 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Period. No seriously, that was awesome you just needed a period to punctuate a little.

So... how about that CDS thingy? Yeah that won't be pretty anyway you slice it.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:17 | 2124032 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

Equity complex has priced this one in with 20-30% surge north in few short weeks. So when the Troika makes Greece bend over again equities will have a relief rally. Or when Greece defaults equities will surge because it's fixed. Welcome to new normal!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:24 | 2124075 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

I repeat.

The S&P closed Dec 31, 2011 at a price LOWER than Dec 31, 2010.  Four weeks ago, just four weeks, we closed a down year.  Repeat: 2011 was a DOWN YEAR.

This is just one month of bullshit going on.  Ignore it.  Real shit is coming.

We have the payroll tax extension that WILL BE PAID FOR to renew Feb 29, and that will extract $150ish billion from the GDP.  We have Greece, unsolved, unsolvable pending very soon.

Ignore the four weeks of bullshit.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:25 | 2124035 falak pema
falak pema's picture

the mouse that roared! If only it were true...! 

May the triple A club eat their As, one by one. Until they are ready to give Greece 100% and ask the banks no remission even at this rate. GO eat your CDS as well to boot along with a 0% check. Thats what the bankstas deserve. But that's not reality...IS it... as the Greek Oligarchs won't get their "pats" on the back in this deal from the lords of the world. They don't want to end up like fleeced sheeple, they who slept in GS beds!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:18 | 2124039 RossInvestor
RossInvestor's picture

Greece can never officially default since such an action wiould not be recognized by the ISDA.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:20 | 2124053 hourglass86
hourglass86's picture

FUCK YOU TROIKA! AND FUCK YOU EUSSR!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:28 | 2124093 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

AND YOUR IMF + USSA OVERLORDS*

 

 

*fixed @ no charge.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:32 | 2124111 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Yes I can only imagine who they define the poor to be

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:41 | 2124135 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Isn't that thet whole point of the tax? ;-)

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:50 | 2124368 chubbar
chubbar's picture

No taxation without representation! They are desperately trying to get the camels nose under the tent with a worldwide tax. Carbon tax, transaction tax, poor tax, etc. Something will eventually stick unless we make it abundantly clear that we won't stand for it.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:25 | 2124077 flyonmywall
flyonmywall's picture

It really sucks when somebody stabs you with your own sword, don't it?

Banking crisis made possible by the banks. Further insanity to follow.

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:25 | 2124079 a growing concern
a growing concern's picture

At some point in the circle jerk, doesn't someone's arm get tired?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:39 | 2124326 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

depends on whose Hamy Wanger its jerking...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:35 | 2124102 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Greece to run out of cash by March 20th

California to run out of cash by March 1st

Labor Participation rate banging on the lows

No wage increase of any meaning

US industrial manufaturing labor force back at 1940s levels

Things are lookin' good; DOW 14,000 hats?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:36 | 2124119 sabra1
sabra1's picture

if 45% of greeks get internet access, they could all make over 7K per month, like that buddy's girlfriend earns!

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 21:20 | 2125595 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

+1 ha

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:47 | 2124158 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

It is of my opinion that the people are intending.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:40 | 2124331 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Quick... Look over here... The Superbowl is starting (followed by the season premiere of "The Voice")...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:31 | 2124107 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Greece should've shit on this bastards a long time ago. That's what happens when governments serve everyone except the people.  It would be a dream come true to see the US gov't implode in my lifetime.

Don't worry though USA, Ben said he will protect you from any of this yesterday.  DOW 13k enroute. Just think.........we could blow Iran to hell in a month and have an entire 3,000pts we could spend on the DOW and still have it at the all precious 10k market.

I am so sick of this shit.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:33 | 2124114 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

Realization: Nasdaq at ten year high here.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:02 | 2124201 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Why isn't that a 15 year high?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:35 | 2124117 alien-IQ
alien-IQ's picture

It really is astounding that despite the fact that the /ES has risen 272 points since October, this news does not move it down one singular motherfucking tick.

I am, once again, just watching this market in complete and utter amazement. Not willing to trade...just...watching.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:38 | 2124126 atomic180
atomic180's picture

Let the Chinese and the Saudi's step up they have the cake... The Northern alliance has given up enough to keep them solvent if you can call it solvent,.. Plus lest get GS to pay up too after all they fudged the books to get the Greeks in the Euro...

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:46 | 2124356 Mountainview
Mountainview's picture

Unfortunately their cake is in Dollars and EURO's, difficult to digest !

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 20:45 | 2125507 kanenas
kanenas's picture

70 (or 94 depending who is counting)% of the cake is local. EUR now, NewDrachma in a week (bigIF here).

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:40 | 2124130 Vigilante
Vigilante's picture

I presume the gist here is two things.

Greeks have reachd their limit re. taxation.

Second...all outstanding debt,post-haircut,will be governed by 'British Law'.

It was ,until now, under Greek Law...i.e ..bollocks.

This means Greece will be on the hook for those debts for decades to come.

Default is not an option anymore.

The overlords will be able to confiscate any assets held outside Greece at will.

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:02 | 2124425 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Second...all outstanding debt,post-haircut,will be governed by 'British Law'.

 

Meaningless. There is NO such thing as "British" Law. There is the Law of England or the Law of Scotland, and the Law of Northern Ireland. If you think English Law will enforce legal claims against the Government of Greece you are smoking dope. It is beyond the jurisdiction of English courts to hold foreign governments to account.  Besides which Gambling Debts cannot be legally enforced and CDS are gambling

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:41 | 2124134 1eyedman
1eyedman's picture

the default should be well-contained, er, rather, limited and expose the US system to zero losses, as per Jamie Dimon invterview in Davos.  I think the smart people/overlords running things fully grasp all possible outcomes and have firewalled sensitive areas.

MF testimony, the guy basically says, he did see a risk, modelled for it, seemed unlikely, as it became more likely and risked the firm, again said it was an unlikley scenario but by the time he got back to the office it was done. 

Two ideas running concurrently showing again the incredible hubris by people who feel they can do no wrong by virtue of thier high incomes, while demonstrating at the same time the models/perceptions of reality, are likely well off what the reality and near future truly will be.

 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:42 | 2124139 Poetic injustice
Poetic injustice's picture

Give those Greeks a way they like.

They have done nothing to fix things, and time has run out.

I am not even talking about unions everywhere, or fixed amount of people who can work in given profession (hint - truck drivers), but also other professions.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 14:51 | 2124169 surf0766
surf0766's picture

Now more setup of hope headline rallies into the dow 15000 mark. Hope of this hope of that. It's all bullshit.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:02 | 2124204 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Little does the Troika understand that a serious fall in wages will damage loan serviceability and hence further damage asset values which in turn will impact bank profit and loss statements and balance sheets. Need i say more?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:07 | 2124223 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The existence and meddling of a Troika simply gives the Greek people someone to fight and oppose rather than concentrating on real changes. By leaving the Euro the Greek people will suddenly find themselves to be masters of their own fate and they will either rise to the occasion or else accept Troika as their new political masters.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:09 | 2124227 Joebloinvestor
Joebloinvestor's picture

So we get to sit, wide eyed waiting for the "solution" that is forthcomming "any day" until it isn't.

Default for shits sake.

If not they are just gonna re-visit this until 2020 when the debt is "only" 120% of GDP and that is if they do everything, like that is gonna happen.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:10 | 2124233 phraseshifter
phraseshifter's picture

Greek Recovery Ale- "Molon 'Abe"  in markets now...PIIGS Pac Special

"4 for the price of 5"

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:20 | 2124275 props2009
Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:25 | 2124293 The Reich
The Reich's picture

Iz ovar nao? 

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:28 | 2124298 Dick Darlington
Dick Darlington's picture

The morons of Troika and all the rest of the eurostooges will climb to the Acropolis and sing in choir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZVXCM6R1-U

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:40 | 2124328 SmoothCoolSmoke
SmoothCoolSmoke's picture

Euro up, up, up since this news.  Typical.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:54 | 2124388 skepticCarl
skepticCarl's picture

Here's part of the bullish case for this mess:  The ultimate default and its aftermath will provide a model for the rest of PIIGS.  A little creative accounting here, a little politics there, and presto!  Live goes on as usual.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 15:59 | 2124413 navy62802
navy62802's picture

Greek default pushing Spain back into danger?? Hate to break it to the Europeans, but Spain never got out of danger. They are unlikely to exit the danger zone any time soon with almost 25% unemployment.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:11 | 2124472 DutchMadness
DutchMadness's picture

It's getting time to check the serialnumber on your Euro's  ( especially the ones of 500,=... ) . Greec Euronotes start with: Y and are printed in Greece by their National Bank. And get rid of them..before it is too late and the ECB announces they are worthless..

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 16:15 | 2124494 jmcadg
jmcadg's picture

MUTHER FUCKING SHIT TIT WANK ARSE BOLLOCKS KNOB CUNT - GET IT OVER WITH.

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 17:57 | 2124934 ucsbcanuck
ucsbcanuck's picture

Aren't we articulate?

Fri, 02/03/2012 - 18:22 | 2125029 falak pema
falak pema's picture

DSK posted in french press and reminisced : He said basically he argued that Ireland needed a strong PSI participation. Geithner his US shareholder shot that down. According to DSK that would have saved the Ecb and Euro zone a lot of pain; an early PSI in Ireland. It would have also avoided contagion risk growing. He then said when Greece went hot he argued the same, insisting that THIS time a quick PSI and ECB fix was paramount. He wanted to negotiate directly with Merkel who was stumbling block when he got nabbed in NY airport.

His take is that his absence sent IMF into limbo at critical moment whereas he had a solution as he was respected by Merkel. Sarkozy/Lagarde are not respected by Merkel and more so her financial team. That's the bottom line according to DSK.

If this thing had been handled in early may 011 we would not be here. But it meant firm resolve to give Greece fast haircut of similar size as today which would have stopped contagion to Italy and Spain. He believes Spain is safe, financially but NOT economically and this 25% unemployment PLUS increased spread has now made it very difficult.

Euro zone keeps missing the bus since 2009 !!!

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 01:17 | 2125963 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i noticed your comments on the idea of merk0 campaigning 4 sark0 last week, too, btw...

so here we have a DSK "version" in, say 2012, of what woula-coulda-shoulda happened in 2011, if only...

so, to me, this explains everything and reasonably, too, except for:  why did he resign?  if he is the lynchpin to "solving" the EUs problems [which according to tyler may not be solvable] why does he take himself out of the equation "in a NY second"? 

is he that 'scared' of what?  standing up to timmah after ireland?  this kinda fits, really, since after the irish election, i was wondering if ireland, itself, hadn't cozied up a little too close to the EU "understandings" and had lost the ability to say anything but "baaaa" about "the debt" to the banksters, myself

also, christine did not ascend to the right hand of the fiatGod until later, and timmah called for DSK to resign, and for jnLipsky to step up as "interim" and "take over" which he did from ~5/15/11>7/15/11

lipsky, with a wesleyan BA, took a stanford MA & PhD in his field (econ) and then (wiki bio paste, my emph): 

On graduation Lipsky joined the International Monetary Fund, where he helped manage exchange rate surveillance procedure. Appointed the IMF's resident representative in Chile from 1978 (during General Augusto Pinochet's military dictatorship), Lipsky returned, in 1980, to the IMF headquarters in Washington D.C. to develop procedures in international capital markets.[1][10] He also participated in negotiations with several member countries.[1]

so here we see he has a 30+ year history as an international spook and foggyBottom operative, going into chile a respectable time after the allende coup as the IMF (!) he is also a CFR guy and a protege of henryKaufman (!)

imo, timmah was "working" for him, most likely [and may not have known it, even?] but it doesn't matter too much, since they are both in the story together anyhow

so i appreciate you taking the time to put this up and out here for all & sundry;  the DSK stuff is so spooky, that i just wanna put it in a black box: 

"while on his way to the EU via nyc, DSK entered a black box;  while in this box, he resigned on the second or third day, allowing a sp00k to take over the IMF for two months, after  the spQQk had recently announced his upcoming retirement, too!  then christine took the helm and we have the pol-spook-pol transition with each player entering/exiting or exiting/re-entering boxes about who they are and what their jobs are and how credible they are" 

or something...

at the time this was a-happenin', i remember writing about how it seemed that merk0's credibility and her ability to "lead" the german nation in the EU "crisis" were being augmented, as well as their ability to see their "power" in the EU's financial future in other than a negative "naysaying" way

we see the story and the dynamics similarly, and that DSK was not allowed to get to merk0 is not unacceptable to my thinking in the least(!). but maybe culture or conditioning tends to effect how we see who was allowed to get to merk0 and how she was "handled" by "the IMF"

DSK was taken down by intel operatives who then worked thru diplo/intel "channels" to establish the political dialogue and "script"

at least that is my "working hypoth" at this point in time and i wanted to share my thoughts with you since some of your ideas have influenced them

some of us may have done "interim" work in our own fields

organizationally, if problems are seen ahead, a "head" can be "taken down" and an "interim" appointed, to try for a new conceptual set-up, even a paradigm change

lipsky's spookery also coincides w/ the "debt ceiling" US drama, leading to the US "downgrade" [after which T prices went into new orbits], and the SNB even announced it was thinking of devaluing to support the euro shortly "after his time"

NAT0 was doing libya;  the french dropped weapons [and advisors?] into the nafusa mountains in direct violation of int'l law and the UN covenants at the end of june [to protect the Berbers from being massacred  L0L!!!]and tripoli fell in august: a french carrier was involved, the brits were up for budget review and re-commitment, and italy and several other BK countries were "investing" in removing the moQ

to me, "haircuts" was not the paradigm TPTB wished to project at this time, even tho it may have been the best approach from the german POV [and the irish, and the greek too maybe;  i certainly thought so at the time, at least, myself, and said so]

for NAT0: centralBanks 'twisting' to ZIRP and mo can-kicking [debt = money]/enslavement was/is the way to go, and DSK might have seemed a loose cannon to the generals and their 'superiors', so they took him down and used an 'interim'.  he seems to have played along once he got the message and hasn't come out of this too badly given that "they" literally slammed his dick in the door to get rid of him for a while, here.  ouch!

but his problems were also smoothed out and he was rehabilitated somewhat as his "case" did that whole shape-changing thingy and he was re-leased   L0L!!!

and the IMF itself went from french director to spook control and then back to a frenchPerson;  how court-like!

call me crazy, but this indicates that NAT0 "superiors" engineered the DSK resignation in order to protect their libyan adventure from a possible "credit event" and to get angela on a script they could live with and empower her to project it or try to, into the upcoming downgrades, expanding swaplines, SNB support,  and stealth QE, probably centered on germany itself getting involved as "principal" in an ECB check-kiting scheme of biblical proportions...

...or something...

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 09:44 | 2126309 falak pema
falak pema's picture

You ask a lot of questions about IMF history and DSK role at its healm.

I can only say this :

1° Why DSK resigned. He had to as it HAPPENED before Cyrus Vance offered him the deal. I think, but this is subjective gut feeling, that his resignation was necessary from both  US and French Oligarchical perspectives, and conditioned his liberation. 

If he had stuck it out, not resigned, he would have had the book thrown at him by the judge. Anyways, the seedy side of the scandal killed his political future in France as in IMF. 

2°  As for his tenure in IMF, he came across as a man breaking with the long tradition that you mention, to which his multicultural professional force; a lot of those IMF economists are third world people; were totally atuned and sympathetic to. Nobody in IMF wants to play financial hard ball with third world nations. Not any more after the abysmal track record...unless big boss man is front for TBTB US Oligarchs; which DSK was not. He was a true reformist, all the while being a good economist that German ultraconservative monetarist could appreciate, in spite of his Keynesian leanings. The crisis gave him a chance to break from tradition in 2008. It was a UNIQUE opportunity, as US oligarchy was reeling on the financial ropes!

As the french elections approach and in all probablity the Sarkozy parenthesis closes, GWB inspired economics and political jingoistic politics will end; the new government will probably align itself to his "behind the scene" analysis, without giving him any credit for it. That's politics...

3°  I don't know if the Euro zone will survive the current Euro crisis. I have a feeling current plan A is unsustainable. I have presented a plan B here on ZEro hedge, which is  much touted in French circles; just mentioning that this convoluted crisis will find an issue. Whether it be hard landing or slow painful adjustment rests to be seen.

4°   As for TD's take on Euro zone, I find it stilted, as I have posted : the markets are not fair but manipulated. We are in anglo-euro financial war all the while trying to keep financial ponzi from not imploding via common CB action. The whole CDS is a private banking sector scam, attaching ANY importance to that paper is pouring oil onto current banksta rip off. Its time ZH/TD admitted this and drew the right conclusions on the Euro-Anglo financial stand off.

THE ANGLO WS/CITY CABAL REPRESENTS THE PONZI FINANCIAL ECONOMY. MERKEL REPRESENTS THE REAL ECONOMY. 

If you are on the side of the real world economy, you cannot be aligned to pax americana and WS/city shenanigans. 

The euro zone has a better real economy model. The US/City has a very powerful bubble economy model that is pulling the whole world down. Lets get our priorities right!

Sat, 02/04/2012 - 16:16 | 2126890 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

referring to your #s:

1) [this was my only overt Q, but others may be implied, such as by hypothesis]  very likely true, but no way to know.  vance's dad was sec0state under jimmyCarter (there's that foggyBottom connection, again).  vance did throw the book at him in the indictment.  yet many of us have the same feeling that if he didn't play ball, he migtha been off the team here

if he hadn't resigned, lipsky woulda handled merk0, anyway

2)  i didn't get into the french political issues except thru the NAT0 "project", altho i recognize that you did

3)  ditto the EU "crisis" and how it "ends";  perhaps oversimplified, but the difference between "haircuts" (DSK) and "kicking can" (lipsky) was what i was trying to develop in the context of the "project"

4)  my comment did not address these broad ideas, except @ the haircut issue(s) which i've always seen as a doable option, but not entirely different from "austerity" as it would play out over time for a nation or union

for me, the broader ideas appear to "bring up" this type of values spectrum regarding self/others/groups/nations/unions and how one perceives the spectrum of this spectrum, feels about it and the "differences", thinks about it all, and so on.  and maybe that that isn't always the same, either

Collective    <======o0o++++++>    Individual

the emotions around these aspects are ka-boomers at least on these string, sometimes;  even after sex, sexual preference, race, disability, an maybe even income and "net" worth get handled, we'll still have this!

those of us who don't consider men. women, and children necessarily to have the same destiny as ants, bees, and termites at least at this point in time may show a "bias" and "clustering"

and we understand that the choices and options needed for a man, woman or child to reach this "conclusion" through individual cognition are operant, which is quite important, according to certain human values

i've rendered unto caesar since my first "paycheck" job @ $1.25/hr, $50 gross/ week, before deductions.  i got drafted! i made it back!   i paid fees and taxes and tickets and fines, premiums, deductibles, excises, deposits, and shipping and handling, BiCheZ!   and still do!

i've certainly felt like a cog in the machine, b/c i was one!  still am, in certain ways, and more at times.  right now, i am trying to keep from letting medicare make me sick unto death!  if i lose, i hope i can do it more gracefully than recent behavior might indicate  L0L!!!

they sent me so much shit that i started to get a headache while 1/2 thru the first little pile, and decided i'd better stop and just try to live with the damned pile0'mail

so, i admit, i'm not very informed!  guy next door tells me he discovered that he could get a complete physical the first year, but unfortunately, he didn't discover this till the second year <as his eyebrows are raised at slewie>

and yes, slewie is still a collectivist shitforbrained idiot @ age 65, BiCheZ!

trust me!

this is ok!!!:  States seek currencies made of silver and gold | Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee

 

 

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