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Greece - Eurozone or Not? Slavery or Freedom?

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Via Peter Tchir of TF Market Advisors

 

At this moment, the headlines coming out of Greece are confusing and contradictory.  It isn't clear whether or not there will be a referendum or a vote of no confidence.  There may be a new leader, there may not be.  All we can do is wait for the next headline.  In the end I think there will be a referendum.

You can't put the genie back in the bottle.  If a referendum is cancelled now, how will the people of Greece react?  If the country was already "ungovernable", how will it get better once the people see this chance to have their voice count, snatched away by Merkozy?  I suspect that the protest and strikes will escalate to the point that a referendum has to be scheduled.  I may be wrong, but I think the Greek people will react very negatively to being told their chance to vote has been taken away.

Right now, the vote, if there is one, is being framed as Eurozone or No Eurozone, where Eurozone represents "the land of milk and honey" and No Eurozone is "a land of famine and disease".

The markets reacted positively to the fact that this vote would be about being in the Eurozone or not, because who would choose famine and disease over the land of milk and honey.  But is it really so simple?  Is the Eurozone really so appealing?  Is there no credible Non Eurozone plan? Maybe this will become about "debt slavery" versus "freedom"?

The Eurozone as Debt Slavery

What does staying in the EU offer GreeceThe "bailout" has a goal of achieving a debt to GDP ratio of 120% in 2020.  So the plan is for Greece to suffer through austerity and strict foreign control for 9 years just to become a cr*p country?  When the Greek crisis first started, the official debt to GDP ratio was below this.  Is it really so compelling to struggle with the program with the only target being to still suck?  They have no control over the money supply or interest rates - they are at the mercy of the ECB.  Merkozy is happy to push down on Greece and threaten their sovereignty.  Having to listen to Juncker can't be an exciting national pastime.  The EU trade agreements are good, though with no real industry, it mostly benefits Greece on their imports.  Travel without passports is nice, but not crucial.  Greeks won't be able to leave the country to get jobs elsewhere so easily - this may actually be good for a struggling economy. The IIF hasn't even produced details on what the "haircut" will look like. How hard can it be for a bunch of bankers to produce an actual plan.  It is clear that Greece has had almost no say in the bailout and with each new iteration they are losing more control of their own destiny.  This is what you get if you stay in the Eurozone.

No Eurozone as Freedom and Sustainable Economic Growth

The No vote needs a credible plan.  Let's start with repudiating all existing debt.  Merkozy says we are with them or against them, well let's go for it.   Not accepting your horrific bailout means we have to leave the Euro, then we are going to do this right.  Greece will not make another payment on any existing debt.  Debt to GDP is now 0.  There are GREECE bonds and GGB bonds.  The GREECE bonds may have some rights to fight this, as they are under English law, but the GGB bondholders are probably completely out of luck since they were done under Greek law.  Not sure if you have looked, but the documentation on sovereign debt is pretty slim to begin with and very little is devoted to bondholder rights, since they have none.  So step 1 is to stop paying on existing debt and we think it will work.  Not only has our debt to GDP ratio dropped to zero, but our annual budget deficit problem just got a lot smaller.  With an average coupon of 4% on 350 billion of debt, the savings would be 14 billion euro per annum.  That looks to be about 75% of the annual shortfall.

It is true that this will wipe out our banks.  We cannot make special consideration for our banks.  They made mistakes and have to be punished (but "wink wink" the banks have shifted so much risk to the ECB that it is really a problem for the ECB and we have no interest in making the ECB's problems smaller, since they are part of what we are leaving).  Once the losses have gone through the system we will then nationalize the banks.  All depositor accounts will be protected.  Not a single cent held in a bank account will be lost.  Yes this is a cost to the government and we will need some money for this, but rest assured, no bank accounts will experience a loss.

The nationalized banks will function and ensure the economy runs smoothly and will have a much more concentrated focus on Greece.  You may hear some noise from the bankers that they won't work for a nationalized banks, but that is all it is.  The computers will still run, and tellers can be replaced if they really want to quit, and frankly the senior management is what got us into the problem, so they may not be asked to stay anyways.

The pension system will also be hurt.  We will be making a one-time contribution to the pension funds to make some of their losses, but it will be contingent on changes.  Defaulting on our existing debt doesn't solve all the problems.  Some of the austerity programs will have to be implemented and the citizens of Greece will share part of the burden of achieving sustainable economic growth.  The cuts will not be as severe as those demanded by the EU, but more importantly, you, the people of Greece, are making these sacrifices for yourself and for future generations of proud Greek citizens.

So, we will need some money to nationalize the banks, cover all depositors, to reduce the damage to the pension system, and to pay bills until we are able to run without an annual deficit.  To this end, we have our friends from the EU to thank.  In their effort to strip us of our wealth many supported the "Eureca" plan.  We realize that it was an attempt to strip us of our heritage and to enrich themselves at our expense, but not all of the ideas are bad.  We will be auctioning off minority stakes in some of the entities.  The winners will be required to not only pay for the minority stakes, but will participate in our new Drachma bond offering.  We have already been approached by several potential investors.  It seems, that although the EU may be fair weather friends, many other nations are private investors are happy to support the new Greece.  Sovereign wealth funds in particular are excited to be part of the new Greece and are comfortable that with our incredibly small debtload, not only will the new Drachma bonds trade well, there is little expectation of inflation.  We have no need to "print" money like other central banks, because our debt to GDP ratio will only be 20% after the asset sales and new bond issues.  With such low debt, many of the growth countries in the world will find it a valuable addition to their investment portfolio.  We expect to have enhanced trade agreements with many of these countries shortly as well, in an effort to replace what the EU has decided to deny us.

There will be claims that this cannot work, yet look at Korea, Russia, Argentina, Iceland, to see countries that either defaulted or were on the precipice that made tough decisions, played hardball, and went on to unprecedented periods of prosperity.

Say no to the Eurozone and usher in a brand new era where we control our own destiny and have no debt problems, with a real possibility of having surpluses and reserves in the future.  The new Drachma will be a solid currency backed by hard assets, a strong government, dedicated citizens, and little debt.  Do not listen to the alarmists, they have everything to gain from keeping us bound to the eurozone debt shackles and everything to lose by us taking back our freedom.

Letting People Think is a Dangerous Thing

Maybe the No Eurozone plan won't be so compelling, but if people start taking a serious look at how it would work, it might not be so bad, and don't forget, the Eurozone plan isn't that great.  At some point, the citizens of the country need to make the decisions.  Electing politicians that can then be corrupted by Merkozy is not a long term solution.  Maybe the Greeks will decide to stay in the Eurozone, but I don't think it will be as obvious as people currently believe.  Default can help the debtor, particularly when the lenders  have no real rights in event of default.  I am quite confident that at this stage, Merkozy view this little crisis as resolved, because they haven't actually spent more than a second wondering what Greece could really do, and are just assuming that the no Eurozone threat is enough to sway them.  Maybe it is, for now, but like everything else in this crisis, once something gets out there, it seems to take on a life of its own and keep coming back to haunt the "solution makers".

 

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Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:05 | 1840673 grunk
grunk's picture

One way or another, the Greeks will vote.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:12 | 1840718 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

And the vote is simple: are Greeks adults, or children who need to be told what to do by outsiders?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:17 | 1840752 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I am going to bet there will not be a vote.

That is what this new government coalition is about. If the buffoon Gpap resigns the first order of business will be to cancel the referendum and then we should see a strong market rally...I hope.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:20 | 1840788 He_Who Carried ...
He_Who Carried The Sun's picture

Freedom? Gaining freedom? You gotta be jokin'...

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:39 | 1840935 I Got Worms
I Got Worms's picture

If the vote is called off or "delayed" I sincerely hope the Greeks burn that motherfucker down.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:05 | 1840675 Mongo
Mongo's picture

So when will Greece be on Ebay?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:12 | 1840714 jcpicks
jcpicks's picture

Auction would be 'No Reserve'.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:36 | 1841678 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

That "As-Is, Where-Is" thingy could be problematical though.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:06 | 1840677 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Freedom ... always. Not just Greece. Greece is the beginning.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:12 | 1840716 Arius
Arius's picture

you might be onto smt .... all of these movements everywhere the Arab Spring, Occupy movements ... it seems it is an ongoing unraveling stage .... run for cover ...

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:26 | 1841089 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Freedom ... always requires responsibility. Not just in Greece, but anywhere. Even in 'The Land of the Free and Home of the Brave' there are far to few that understand this concept, and far fewer would yearn for it. The new freedom, born recently under socialism, is to depend on someone else for the things needed. Until this basic fundemental is understood, there will be no Freedom.   

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:41 | 1841268 Doubleguns
Doubleguns's picture

Nope not freedom but on board the Titanic is plenty of milk and honey. Getting aboard the life boats will be cold, no food or drink, no band and no luxuries at all. Very austere conditions indeed. Please reconsider Greece, do not get aboard the life boats. Continue the voyage with us....aboard the most wonderful EU Titanic. LOL

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:07 | 1840679 Element
Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:07 | 1840683 NetDamage
NetDamage's picture

Heads are gonna role sooner or later IMHO

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:13 | 1840721 xcehn
xcehn's picture

Death to the banksters.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:07 | 1840688 CPL
CPL's picture

Follow your bliss.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:22 | 1840810 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Ignorance is strength.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:25 | 1840838 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Knowledge is power.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:08 | 1840692 xcehn
xcehn's picture

Freedom is worth every drop of blood.  Greeks are better off dead than as euro/bankster slaves. Slavery is the ultra new and improved Western brand of democracy.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:08 | 1840694 ChickenTikka
ChickenTikka's picture

Anybody care to guess why the ECB cut happened?  What do the insiders know and why did it prompt them to do this? 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:13 | 1840724 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

A new Sheriff is in town and he needed to make  a few arrests in order to show everyone who is in charge.  Nothing more.  it makes no difference.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:10 | 1840699 Stuart
Stuart's picture

Clusterfuck is a word and a half re: to resign or not to resign....  are there any adults over there???

The rate cut is just a rumour too I guess.  SNAFU

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:09 | 1840702 gared44
gared44's picture

watch out what is happening in Iran - much more serious than Greece

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:33 | 1840891 El Viejo
Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:35 | 1840907 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Greece IS what's happenning in Iran... no, I take that back. Greece is what's happening in israel, ad Israel is what's happening in iran.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:44 | 1840962 gared44
gared44's picture

why do u think oil is spiking??....

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:10 | 1840703 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Electing ever more corrupt politicians, clearly not a solution.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:29 | 1840869 j0nx
j0nx's picture

Wasting your time voting clearly not a solution either.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:12 | 1840705 edotabin
edotabin's picture

If I am not mistaken, wasn't a referendum promised for the British people and then ......

This EU horseshit is completely out of control. 10-20 banks and their upper management viceroys flat out lying to the entire world.

Edit: and oh yeah, totally getting away with it.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:14 | 1840730 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

This is all about 50 or so people in the world trying to figure out how to save their own sorry asses as billions watch daily.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:31 | 1840875 j0nx
j0nx's picture

You're right but tell me who are the bigger fools in that scenario?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:12 | 1840720 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

My money is on the Greeks being cowards.  They'll roll over and play dead when the ECB tells them they're not allowed to have their refferendum.  Sure, they'll be a day or two of strikes, protests and burning some cars, but in the end they'll roll over and play dead.

 

They don't have the stones to take their country back from the ECB.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:15 | 1840739 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

In that case they may as well BE dead...as Max Keiser says they will NO LONGER be Greeks, they'll be 'IMF's.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:21 | 1840799 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Agreed.

The greeks are just pussies and lazy cowards who cant control their spending. They got mad and had a temper tantrum when daddy tore up the credit card and told them they had to earn their own money.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:27 | 1840847 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

Exactly, if they were capable of making real sacrifie, they wouldn't find themselves in this situation.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:30 | 1840873 jdelano
jdelano's picture

you realize american debt crosses 100% of GDP this month right?  Glass house. Stones, yada yada?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:38 | 1840929 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

Americans will roll over and play dead faster than the Greeks.  The Americans are too busy DVRing Dancing with the Stars while they watchin the E! miniseries on the Kardsashian divorce and tending to their farmville crops on facebook to give a shit about anything in their country.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:34 | 1840897 Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

Nor, usually, the slingshots with which to hurl those stones. Draconian gun laws.  Ha! Draco was a 7th century Athenian lawmaker. Get it? A Greek. Small world. Class is over.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:38 | 1840933 johny2
johny2's picture

And which brave tribe you come from, to look so condescendingly upon the greeks. 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 12:31 | 1841970 vato poco
vato poco's picture

I've got no love for Greeks -they'd rather argue than breathe - nor any patience for clusterfucks who reflexively mewl "America ain't so great neither!"

But.

Remind me again exactly how many riots & deaths we had here when the IRS announced their 'guilty-until-proven-innocent' policy? Or our brave drug warriors started confiscating all those houses, cars, cash, etc. found at a drug bust, even if they belonged to someone else entirely and had nothing at all to do with the druggies? Or when private ownership of gold was outlawed? Or when it became a felony to "tell a lie" to "any federal agent", even if that "lie" was "I don't think I did anything wrong!"? Or when they trashed the 4th amendment and started doing random drug & alcohol roadblocks? Or when it suddenly becme a "crime" to film cops - public "servants", mind you - while they're beating and macing handcuffed people *on the clock*? Or when heroic federal LEO assholes bravely shot/killed/burned alive women and kids at Waco and Ruby Ridge? I can do this all day, so let's end it with etc., etc., etc.....

Greeks don't have a monopoly on rolling over & playing dead. And "having the stones" to fight TPTB means being willing to take on trigger-happy goons with badges, and a system geared to crap on any & all who dare to challenge them. Easy enough to write about - lots harder to *do*.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:14 | 1840727 Kina
Kina's picture

You can't put the genie back in the bottle.  If a referendum is cancelled now, how will the people of Greece react?  If the country was already "ungovernable", how will it get better once the people see this chance to have their voice count, snatched away by Merkozy?

The banksters do not care, so as long as they get what they want they wouldn't care if every Greek died of starvation.The banks, their bonuses and their power are the only thing important and they will trash countries, murder Presidents and so on to achieve this..

And of course it will be a number of paid for Greek politicians that are owned or paid off by the banks that will betray Greece, as per usual.

 

One good thing that may come from the global financial implosion when it comes is that the Banks and banksters will be clearly identified as the evil creatures that caused the destruction.

 

 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:27 | 1840853 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Greece will be labeled as a terrorist state.  NATO led invasion will commence to "restore democracy".

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:18 | 1840728 Maxwell Smart
Maxwell Smart's picture

G-Pap - the boy who cried wolf.

 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:14 | 1840729 agent default
agent default's picture

Greece will be out of the Eurozone within a year.  Others will follow.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:38 | 1840928 Uchtdorf
Uchtdorf's picture

Exactly right. Confusion must reign for the next few years so TPTB can "save" us by instituting a worldwide currency. First, the Euro will fail and then the Mighty (not) USD will crash.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:55 | 1841018 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

Default now or default later. These are the only two choices. Greece can't pay even if they wanted too. (and they don't) When you lend to deadbeats they don't pay you back.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:15 | 1840735 FunkyOldGeezer
FunkyOldGeezer's picture

All this smells of a big back-hander that's gone to G-Pap from someone who wanted to make sure their insider information was going to be correct.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:15 | 1840738 Skeebo
Skeebo's picture

I don't get the optimism, so you're going to get the guy that pushed through everything that the EU wanted Greece to do replaced... with someone from the party that was completly opposed to it all?

Why does anyone think that the leader of the opposition party will act in any manner different with regards to the referendum that G-Pap has?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:28 | 1840856 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

The opposition was only opposed to it in order to score political points. In actuality the socialist government in power hates the agreement even more, but even they know it is better than total chaos.

The eurozone will not let greece go with just an argentinian level of collapse. Massive legal claims, economic embargo, and unpredictable takings of greek trade goods to satisfy judgments will prevent anyone from risking trade deals with greece.

Greece must totally collapse for a genetation and suffer to the point of hunger as an example to italy, portugal, ireland and spain that leaving the euro is worse than staying.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:48 | 1840986 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Iceland?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:17 | 1840766 RSDallas
RSDallas's picture

Coup de grace! 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:18 | 1840771 glepo
glepo's picture

Fair enough, but where did the money go? If Debt/GDP went so high after Greece joined the Euro this is not a case of liquidity or loss of trust this is a case of insolvancy. They have to trace back where the money went and recover it to repay the debt!!!!!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:20 | 1840794 glepo
glepo's picture

And they should consider themselves lucky that they get a 100bn discount then go and recovery the rest from whoever misappropriated it.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:24 | 1840832 Maxwell Smart
Maxwell Smart's picture

Greece is the wisest of the whole Eurozone / EU bunch.

It doesn't have to pay any debt back or sell any property. It must have hundreds of billions stacked somewhere, which it can use when starting with drachma.

Greece, congratulations! Well done!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:51 | 1840997 walküre
walküre's picture

Where did the money go?

It kept an illusion going! It benefited all Greeks of course.

The money is spent and now there's no more. Greece cannot afford the socialism it has legislated over the years.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:54 | 1841378 glepo
glepo's picture

a better guess would be Switzerland.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:21 | 1840801 nathan1234
nathan1234's picture
Greeks !

It's time you fought the bankers.History in the West was created by you. Now let it begin anew.

Tell Sarkozy and Merkel & the rest to take a dip in the freezing Alpine rivers.

Have the referundum and answer NO to these crooked assholes

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:21 | 1840803 pendragon
pendragon's picture

great piece of analysis. can someone pls translate it into greek and forward it to the media there...

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:25 | 1840834 s2man
s2man's picture

good one, Peter.  5 *

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:27 | 1840846 tradebot
tradebot's picture

I was just standing there behind the car on the roadside...my girlfriend asks, "what you doing back there?" I replied, nothing, just lookin around...She said "nope, I'll bet you're a Peein."

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:32 | 1840888 jdelano
jdelano's picture

bullish.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:28 | 1840857 oleander garch
oleander garch's picture

Time to lower the Greek flag, close the Olympic training facilities and rebrand all government documents and ministries.  Loss of sovereignity was always the hidden price of EU admission.  One can begin to understand the motivations of the Quislings and other collaborators during the Second World War -- they cared more for themselves than their countries.    

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:29 | 1840870 Alex Kintner
Alex Kintner's picture

This is Sparta!! I vote banker's heads on a pole.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:31 | 1840877 Maxwell Smart
Maxwell Smart's picture

Greek government foreign debt will be 0 % of GDP in 2012 or already in 2011.

Only total debt forgiveness will satisfy G-Pap and Greek economy.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:31 | 1840882 vegas
vegas's picture

Well, if they are anything like your average Amerikan, they'll vote to stay in the Euro and be serfs. A substantial portion of the population doesn't have the IQ higher than a bag of carrots. All they give a shit about is the handout.

Why?

Because it is all they know, and they don't care enough to properly educate themselves. It's so much easier to just rant a slogan at a TV camera, and have a name like Ketchup.

This is a clusterfark.

 

 

http://.vegasxau.blogspot.com

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:32 | 1840887 ruffian
ruffian's picture

hey....this guy stole my genie line from event horizon post a few back.........I want royalties !! :-D

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:32 | 1840890 K_I_T_T_Y
K_I_T_T_Y's picture

Just translate it to Greek and send it over to a Greek newspaper, you may cause a revolution!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:34 | 1840898 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Poopy-doo's fine. (balls of steel Poopy is his new name.) The referendum is on track. The people's voice will be heard. France and Germany will sit down... and shut up.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:34 | 1840899 tim73
tim73's picture

Americans should pipe down their "eurozone is EUSSR! Bad Empire!"-talks. Pot calling the kettle black. USA is not a democracy or republic. It is plutocracy, ruled by rich elite for the rich elite and for rich elite only. BTW, EU budget: about 140 billion euros. US Federal yearly budget: 3800 billion dollars. So which one is exactly the big bad empire here?!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:35 | 1840908 skistroni
skistroni's picture

As an added benefit to all Western World fellow citizens, we offer a once-in-a-millenium opportunity to watch and contemplate the future of YOUR OWN country on TV. Jut watch the news out of Greece in the next few months to a year.

 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:41 | 1840921 RiverRoad
RiverRoad's picture

Since the MO of most of the world's currencies including ours is focused on a race to the bottom for trading purposes, the Greeks could certainly do well by scuttling the Euro and returning to the Drachma.  Think what it would do for the world's tourists to be able to enjoy Santorini again at reasonable prices! Tourists would be back again in droves.  Greece being on the Euro works for the banksters; it is not working for the people of Greece.  Let the banksters of the world "consolidate":  that's how capitalism is supposed to work, just as it does in any other sector of the economy that screws up.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:40 | 1840936 SirIssacNewton
SirIssacNewton's picture

The Greeks will roll because they have been sucking at the Euro teat for too long.  They, as a country, have been immersed in socialism/communism for so long that there are no generations alive that remember anything different.  Their government has functioned as an autocracy at the top with the same ruling family for too long as well.  The questions for them, for us all, is will the active oppression of economic and social freedom reach a point to where a significant group or groups will actively revolt.  We might all hope that this might happen to cause change....to topple the bank oligarchy...the crony and corrupt leadership class, but most will stay within their serfdom.  Hope, in the case, does not spring eternal.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:41 | 1840947 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Jerry Springer is having G-Pap, Merkel and Sarkozy on his show this week...all at once....should be good!

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:42 | 1840949 totem
totem's picture

One more thought here Peter...

Merkozy et al. should be terrified that Greece might leave the Eurozone.  Over the years, they've built up the perception of the Eurozone as a savior.. join us and you'll be saved!

However, if Greece leaves and survives -- and starts to flourish -- on their own, how does that change the Eurozone perception?

Is the Eurozone a savior or the roach motel?

Eurozone officials should stop with the "we'll kick you out" chatter or they may ultimately have a mass exodus on their hands.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:48 | 1840979 walküre
walküre's picture

Are you serious?

Are welfare leeches leaving the US in droves because of threats they might get kicked out?

The strong will stay, the weak will stay as long as they're tolerated.

Your perception is topsie turvy.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:57 | 1841021 totem
totem's picture

In the US, "Welfare recipients are willing to move from state to state to pursue benefits."

In the same way, wouldn't welfare recipients move out of Greece into more favorable European Union states?  That will leave the strong behind...

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:05 | 1841071 walküre
walküre's picture

No, in the case of Greece the welfare stays behind. Those that can work and find jobs in Germany are leaving - for good.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:45 | 1840970 walküre
walküre's picture

The Greeks are cheats.

Cheaters don't enjoy freedom when all they have left is to cheat each other.

The money that the Greek government took over the years kept the illusion going at someone else's expense. That money trickled down into the economy and every Greek household benefited.

Now the bills are due. How is that slavery?

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:04 | 1841068 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

16 tons and what do you get?

Another day older and deeper in debt

St Peter don'cha call me , 'cause i can't go

I owe my soul to the company store.

 

Here is how it works around these parts...

A farmer goes to an "Irrigation seminar" sponsored by the NRCS, the freindly (no spelling error) local bank, and Zimmatic, the pivot manuacturer. He is "convinced he needs a 100,000 dollar pivot, because the NRCS will give him a 25,000 dollar grant, and the freindly (no spelling error) local bank  will loan him the rest. By the end of the seminar, he's another 75K in debt.

The bankers know most people cannot refuse money. The human mind doesn't process deferred onsequenses that well. Wisdom is an acquired skill, not an innate istinct.

The Greeks aren't cheats, they were playing the game the way the banks wanted them to. The banks told them they could live like drunken sailors on borrowed money.

Debt repudiation and a return to the drachma will mean austerity. but it will be the austerity of freedom ,not the austerity of slavery.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:10 | 1841092 walküre
walküre's picture

Agree with your example and it does apply to the Greeks like it applies to American subprime borrowers. They are essentially victims of a banking cabal that is feeding them cheap loans like candy.

However, the Greeks are master tax cheats. If you read that there are more Porsche Cayenne registered in Greece than there are Greeks declaring income of > 50k Euro than what does that tell you?

The Greeks don't pay taxes and yet, they have one of the most expensive governments and biggest entitlements in the world. Paid for by cheating.

When the Greeks loose the privilege of the Euro, they can't afford the gas for their Porsche unless they can drive across the border. That country will run out of gas faster than G-Pap can count the votes on the referendum.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:19 | 1841150 nathan1234
nathan1234's picture

So would you have lent your money to them?

That answers your question

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 10:15 | 1841127 nathan1234
nathan1234's picture

When crooked Bankers lend money to an impecunious country and teach/help them to fudge their books, provide them loans and then bet against their repayment- NOTHING more needs to be said.

The Banks deserve to loose their money

 

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:57 | 1840971 Odin
Odin's picture

The Banksters gotta be scared by this point. The people are educated about the long term goals of EU and IMF, they are educated about what their plan has been all along… They are on the verge of losing Greece, and they haven't even got to Italy, Spain, and Portugal yet... Imagine when they finally have to deal with this same situation in the US of A... It’s gonna make the Occupy Wall Street protesters look like a bunch of pussy’s…......Bankster Bitchez

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 09:50 | 1840995 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Should the Greeksvote for freedom, NATO will go ionto Greece and FORCE the EuroZone (and the debt) on them. Some lame false-flag excuse will be enough.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:04 | 1841144 Yousif
Yousif's picture

Let us assume that the Greeks overwhelmingly "vote" to get out of the Eurozone.  Will that be "acceptable"?

Under normal circumstances, yes it would.  In our current system where the majority are run by [insert appropriate term here], the referendum will be held again and again until the "desirable" result occurs.  The Irish know all about that.

This referendum is a charade.  They're hoping it will quell the riots and bring the serfs under control again.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:09 | 1841507 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

I would be very interested to know the exact wording of the referendum questionnaire. One thing I can guarantee, it won't say "Do you want freedom or slavery?" 

 

I hope the Greeks do vote NO to the Eurozone so they can be chucked out and we get on with our lives to watch the mega banks collapse one by one and the scramble by various creditor nations to print their way to central and private bank solvency. I suspect all those who cheered the "heroic" Greeks choosing "freedom" will be singing a very different tune when they have to take out a mortgage with a loan shark to buy a loaf of bread. As for the Greece under the Drachma, the rate of conversion and rate of interest for any future bonds will make growth prohibitive and Europe will have to close its borders to prevent mass economic refugees. 

 

A couple of things this article didn't mention, Greece has one of the worst records in defaulting on their debt obligations in the entire world. Only Ecuador and Honduras are worse historically. Running away from debtors is a national sport, and even if they say YES to the referendum on staying in the Eurozone, according to the confidential minutes of the 26th Oct., the rest of Europe will still need to cough up extra billions of euros if Greece does not meet their target of 0.5% growth GDP by 2015. Public and political will to drip feed this terminally ill patient has now evaporated.

Thu, 11/03/2011 - 11:27 | 1841624 vato poco
vato poco's picture

Hell, if you want to get all 'long-term'-ish about it, that first sentence is a perfect microcosm of the last 2000 years or so of Greek history. "The headlines coming our of Greece are confusing and contradictory". Well, no shit, Sherlock. They're Greeks: that's what they DO. Since we're being all historical & shit here, I'd also say it's a safe bet that the Greeks or their "leaders" (LOL) can be counted on to make the absolute *worst* choice available - and this time, TPTB have cleverly aranged things so the Greeks can pull all Europe into the toilet with them.

Yeah, this'll end well. Like letting Albanians run your lottery for you.

Fri, 11/04/2011 - 07:23 | 1844292 JohnF
JohnF's picture

One small problem with the scenario ut supra: the new drachma will be immediately discounted outside of Greece and asset prices are destroyed by the resulting superinflation. Not quite hyper, but definitely way north of normal. The result is a Greece that looks like Albania, but lacking the humor (the Belushis are from Albania). Any other scenario is wishful thinking at best and sheer delusion otherwise: why would anyone lend money to Greece ever again? This time it won't be different...Greece would become a new pariah state, at least fiscally.

Seriously: repudiating this sort of debt nowadays means a great big face plant as a nation. Proud the greeks are, but pride do goeth before the fall...

Regardless of how the story works out, the average Greek is going to lose pretty much everything. The rich already have their money elsewhere. The middle class will be gutted and perhaps, just perhaps, the Greeks will finally realize that the only thing keeping them from becoming rich and wealthy is the idea that you can do good things by spending other people's money.

That is what the road to economic hell is paved with these days. Margaret Thatcher was right.

Mon, 05/07/2012 - 03:48 | 2402678 Olympia
Olympia's picture

Those who won all battles shall lose the war.

Bilderberg Group and the crimes against humanity.

 

This is how things work in all countries. Whatever used to belong to their people, today it belongs to the multinational companies of the Club. People were betrayed by their given leaderships and they lost everything. Capitals and markets were handed to the Club bosses. If you understand what is going on in Greece, you can understand what is going on in Britain, France, and Germany etc..

 

http://eamb-ydrohoos.blogspot.com/2012/02/world-war-iii.html

 

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