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Greece Has Defaulted: Here Is Where We Stand
After reading this, everyone should have a fairly good grasp of what happened not only today, but ever since the great (and quite endless) European financial crisis took center stage, and what to look forward to next...
From Chindit13
In a nutshell---okay, a coconut shell---this seems to be where we are:
1) Greece was able to write off 100 billion euros worth of debt in exchange for a 130 billion rescue package of new debt, of which Greece itself will receive 19%, or about 25 billion, so that it can continue to operate as an ongoing concern. Somehow Greece is in a better position than before, with more debt and less sovereignty and still---by virtue of sharing a common currency---trying to compete toe-to-toe with the likes of Germany and the Netherlands, kind of like being the Yemeni National Basketball team in an Olympic bracket that includes the US, Spain and Germany. At least a "within the euro" default prevented bank runs in Portugal, Spain, Italy et al.
2) As a result of the bond haircuts, Greece has many pension plans that can no longer even pretend to be viable, at least according to the original contracted scheme, but pensionholders still working can take heart in the fact that their current wages will be cut, too.
3) CDS buyers will have to sweat bullets, jump through hoops, and be forced to endure every cliche known to man, but they might end up getting something for all their trouble, provided their counterparty is solvent and that counterparty itself is not heavily exposed to an insolvent party or a NTBTF institution, otherwise known as a Lehman Brothers. Expect the legal profession to be the prime beneficiary of this "event", as any new CDS contract will be at least a hundred pages of boilerplate longer in the future.
4) Good luck to any less than AAA rated sovereign who wants to issue debt from now on out. That contracts can now be unilaterally abrogated, as Greece' bonds were with the retro-CACs, bodes ill for attractive pricing from here on out. Peripherals in the EU will suffer most, as they face the added indignity of being subordinated to the ECB at any point the ECB chooses to exercise its divine right of seniority. The thing that used to be called the risk free rate no longer exists. Bill Sharpe take note.
5) One hundred billion euros worth of perceived wealth evaporated. That can not be a good thing for a Eurobanking system already capital short, as it raises leverage (quick back of the envelop calculation) by about 6% across the board. It also will not make the interbank market any more trusting, thus increasing the likelihood of perpetual LTRO. LTRO lll looks to arrive sooner than QE lll.
6) With the drawn-out Greek event and the LTRO, Europe might believe it has firewalled the system for at least three years and limited damage to Greece and Portugal (who will likely undergo a similar default by the 3rd quarter). LTRO-provided liquidity, it is hoped, will lower market rates enough in Spain and Italy so that those countries can meet sovereign bond obligations and both service existing debt and issue new debt. When the LTRO expires in 2015, "hopefully" something called organic growth will have taken over in countries imposing severe austerity measures on their public sectors, so that debt servicing becomes easier. Organic growth obviously is something that comes in a can, a can which has been kicked out to 2015.
7) As Europe now speaks increasingly of greater EU financial integration, Sarkozy's poll numbers will be the victim and a less EU friendly individual will likely win the upcoming election. Since France and Germany fortunately have a long and storied history of being the best of friends, and no one in either country would ever pander to nationalist sentiments, this shouldn't present a problem.
8) Given how much angst was caused by the drawn out Greek affair, the Spanish leader knows he has enormous leverage with EU leadership and he can continue to do what he has been doing with regard to ignoring the deficit targets demanded/suggested by the EU. The EU might well bark at him, but they cannot afford to bite at this time. Muchos gracias, Greece.
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Asheville, NC is not the south. You see more hippy & vegan lesbians types there than in San Fransisco or Berkeley (I know, lived there too)....and NC concealed carry permits have the highest rate of reciprocity except for those issued by Utah.
but, yeah the place is swarming with half-backs.
Savannah, GA. That's the South. Of course i've noticed a few places in Ohio that reminded me of some places i ended up "down there" as well...don't even get me started on southern Indiana...aka the home of the
Though it has been swarmed by the plague rats, that doesnt change where it is. If things do get rough, the surrounding population will laugh as they starve.
Twenty miles outside of Asheville every direction and you better know your manners.
oh yeah, rum and a one hitter make my day.
Amen to that brother!
Dead Guy makes great stuff - along with appropriate, timely title
Portland is not the only place in the west with decent traditions of brewing, Southern Oregon Brewery and a few others are doing quite well...
S.O.B. Barley Wine made its debut on Christmas Eve in the S.O.B. tasting room. This amazing Anders Johansen creation, aged in oak bourbon barrels, is a complex yet remarkably smooth libation that is lightly carbonated and will be presented at room temperature in 5 oz. brandy snifters. This very special offering will only be available in our tasting room until later this spring when it will be available in 22 oz bottles.
ABV 12% or better. Take that PDX.
I just hope they stay small and local, beer (and everything else) never seems to improve with big capitalism and national marketing.
Kentucky Bourbon Barrell Ale for me!
Funny you should mention that. Finished off a Dead Guy after I got home today, followed by several Negra Modelos. What can I say, I have eclectic tastes.
Harpoon, bitchez.
Leviathan IPA is quite good
dupe
I'm having a bowmore 12yo malt. Love the IPA's but beer gives me lots of gas. Did you know that hops can be grafted to marijuana and vice versa. Maybe those medicinal marijuana folks should get a little more hops in them.
You gotta drink those directly from a used toilet bowl to get their true taste.
PBR is made by Miller brewing company. The original company went under many years ago. It was revived by a marketing genius who thought he could still sell PBR to poser rebels...not bad beer, just poser Budweiser. Do you buy your clothes at the mall too? - sorry - LOL couldn't resist.
Warm natty lite
The original company went under many years ago
Companies are ALLOWED to do that? What kind of fucked up free market system is this anyway?
At my local hangout, PBR is cheaper than Pepsi. Perverse incentives FTW!
PBR is pretty good, for some reason, east of the Mississippi. Western Redneck version is MGD. My $21 thirty six pack is snuggled cozily nearby.
Try Natty Boh for some nostalgia.
Interesting. I bought beer tonight at Bruisin Ales for the first time. This is also the first time I've read any of the ZH comments.
Brusin ales (they have about 600 different brands in stock) always makes me think I'm a kid in some kind of store.
Arrogant Bastard on tap?
I would frequent a bar that served that. I looove Arrogant Bastard.
The local pub, just down the street has had it on tap for years. Used to homebrew, need to take it back up. It is regaining speed with the cost and tax rising quick. Thinking of growing some hops on the fence this year. Love the smell when in bloom. Take some, rub it in your hands. Mmmm
Anyone else homebrew?
Unfiltered brewers yeast is one of the best natural sources of the B complex..and other things. The Irish feed their jumping horses Guinness to keep their jumping legs / bones strong. My favorite historical beer story is the Romans making it all the way to the Scots, tasting their heather ale and making them an offer that if they showed them how to make it, they would cut a deal. The Scots declined and beat them back. Everyone has their priorities
That 'splains your fondness for ole Rocky then!
If it has to be beer, for me it's Shipyard, Anchor Steam, or Full Sail.
Otherwise, give me a short glass and an early 80s St. Magdalene or Macallan. No rocks.
When I get shit faced, I prefer Golden Monkey. Golden Monkey at bar is basically guarenteed to lead to scene and being thrown out.
that's good beer
I still haven't figured out if the price of ouzo is going up or down yet. Greeks can't afford it now, but probably need it more than ever............
Miller Lite?????? Eeeessshhhhhh....................
Squirrel piss
christ this has been a long time coming....
I see what you did there.
Nice Blueberry hybrid (old school) and some Jamaican rum. peace.
No thanks, I gave up drinking 4 years, 1 month, 2 weeks, 6 days, 17 hours, 29 minutes and six seconds ago.
Don't miss it a bit. I swear.
I just got back from an AA meeting, haha. It was a good one, too. I've found that there are better (for me), more organic ways to take the edge off. But to the folks that partake of the firewater, have one on me.
Good Dawg.
No excuses.....
Good on ya.
I know how tought it is my friend. Cheers to you...
I appreciate the sentiment, Moneyswirth, but it isn't tough at all these days. I struggled for a long time, but when I finally had enough (and that took a lot, I beat myself up pretty bad), I gave it up. I guess you could say I had a moment of clarity. It's been almost nine years now, and my life is good and still getting better. I go to AA mainly to help out the new folks, but it does me good, as well. I do feel bad for the people still struggling, that's a miserable existence. There is hope, and I'm living proof.
It's good to hear that --- thanks for sharing.
Never having known anyone who dealt with the curse of alcoholism until I began working with native people in the far north (no offense intended, just a fact), I have great sympathy for anyone who is or has had to deal with that particular burden.
'Preciate that, akak. Working with other alcoholics keeps me grateful that I'm one of the lucky ones. It's a spiritual thang, and I dig it.
As I used to sometimes joke with some of my native co-workers, I was both blessed and cursed to have been born too boring to be an alcoholic.
what's up with the Jolly Roger then?
They've isolated the gene for it. Lot of folks have it. Lawyers like me would have no work without it. Most of the criminal justice system (and a good portion of the family law courts) could not survive without it. Know a lot of law enforcement who have destroyed themselves with it. Then of course, our other men in uniform. Assume it will get worse as economics get worse. Am seeing the criminal justice system rapidly increase costs / fines on all defendants where the charge has anything to do with it. I quit myself about five years ago. Actually, depending on who you talk to I haven't because I still drink NAs wich have a small amount. Actually, once your tolerance grows down, they actually give you a slight buzz..that goes away fast. It does help to relax you and it doesn;t make me want to keep drinking. Most alcoholics say a true alcoholic can not do that without losing it. Seems like the term is a continuum not a line. Only like Haak Beck, most of the others stink. As a former homebrewer, I came up with a technique where you take homebrew malt extract, about a tablespoon, microwave it for twenty seconds and mix it in to the NA. Not bad, and you can mix any style you want. Was thinking of trying to make a mixtures you would market condensed mixtures next to the NAs so you could actually have something close to any kind of style.
Never had one of the NAs myself. I know some recovering folk who do drink them. I figger that the cost is about the same, so what's the big deal. There are some new bottled goodies out there that I've never sampled, but I don't miss it/them. When out with friends in places that serve drinks I just tell the servers to keep me supplied with grapefruit juice with a splash of grenadine. The grenadine takes the sour/acid taste away. Tastes good, looks good, and cheap. Half the time they don't even charge me for them. What a deal!
Kind of tearing up as I write this, thanks for sharing your story. Many of my family members and friends have dealt with alcohol addiction. Some have lost the battle. I am so happy you have found a way out, gives me hope for those in my life I am so worried about. But I realize I cannot truly help them, that is the worst part. There are many homeless, obviously alcoholic and possibly mentally ill people around where I work. People berate me for buying them food and giving them money. " You're just encouraging them" they tell me. I am amazed how callous they can be, just no empathy. Yes, I drink occasionally, had a Glenlivet Hot Toddy tonight. Though alcohol is not an addiction for me I have struggled with others. Thanks again for your story.
Miffed :-)
Thanks, Miffed. You're right, you can't help them, unless they want it for themselves. It's a tricky thing, and hopefully those people in your life who struggle will find that spark somewhere inside their spirit. If they do, your support will be needed and appreciated. Best to you and yours.
Top post..top bloke.,nice one.
I am a memeber of the fmaa and I will have two for you.
WonderDawg
I gave up everything, drugs/booze/cigarettes when I turned thirty, over twenty years ago. Big surprise to everyone who knew me. I just stopped cold turkey.
Now I use only perscription drugs, even then as rarely as possible. Even caffeine freaks me out.
Never had the urge to return to the good old days no matter how bad it got. That includes Cancer and other health issues.
I knew a guy who used to get drunk dreams after he got"clean".
I'm always baffled by AA with the cigarettes and coffee. Strikes me as feeding the underlying urges.
Anyway, good on ya.
Hey Gully,
Maybe they are not 'drunk dreams'
how about entering another
universe a paralell one
like that chick Alice
maybe that's how its done
too tired to go on om
i quit drinking mar 24 1989
when the first mate yelled.....
'the bouy is on the wrong side of the ship'
thoughts from the helm.. Exxon Valdez
Cheers, Dawg! I made 2 meetings myself today. Good stuff.
Hey Rocky! It's been a while, good to see you. Hey, if we can stay sober through this mess, I guess we're serious, eh? LOL Good times.
Good for you!!! I got married 18 years ago. Gave up sex about 12 years ago................................
6 years of having it? I'm impressed
20 years for me, 20 years a virgin, somehow we ended up with three kids. jesus x 3 i'm told
You're Fed Ex guy is named Jesus?
so is his brother
Goin' on 2 years 5 months sober myself
Good for you, Jason. Keep doing the next right thing and the odds that your life will keep getting better go up tremendously.
April 1st, 1991 for me. April Fool's Day. Very appropriate!
Quinta Ruban on ice. I'm ordering in some Gyros.
sacrilegious!!!
Never mix in ice with the QR
I'll have a glass of Cab in a minute. I try not to start too early or I WILL over do.
Too early? Now there's something that never occurred to me.
I'm actually trying to figure out if it is or is not a problem. At my worst I have three in a day, but the literature says that is too much for a female. Just deleted a whole lot because, really, this is not the place, now is it? :-)
I think this is the test : Do you want or NEED a drink?
I gave up for a month, because my son challenged me to. Felt better by the end of it.
I'm writing this with my third drink in front of me, so clearly I still enjoy a sip or two.
The real test is, can you stop after one or two? Can you control it? With me, and most alcoholics I know, once they start, all bets are off. That's why I semi-jokingly made the reference to a three week blackout. It was only a semi-joke. I get started, lock up the wimmin and children.
Mornin' Dawg.
Wonderful brining up the topic last night.
Takes on new meaning. :)
Plus, there is that little know but open hidden secret that Chuck Palahniuk was writing about AA... Tyler the alter ego, etc.
Ties it all together.
God I love the smell of a fresh day, clarity without a hangover.
The acutiy and health. I woulda been chugging the vodka already having brought up the first 2 or 3 tries by now... and I'm just getting ready to hit the links.
Bless all of those suffering, both inside and outside the rooms.
How'd you hit 'em today, Knuks? I shot an 84 that should have been about a 78. It was a beautiful day to wake up early, have some coffee, then go out and grip it and rip it. Might do it again tomorrow. I hope you had a good day, as well.
Dawg! I shot an 84 today also! Bunches and bunches, gobs and gobs of seemingly endless iffy shots, putts lipping, sitting on the edge...but scored pretty well by my book.
Do believe that I shall rest well tonight having done my monthly H&I (been doing it for 6 years now) in the secure facility at the local hospital. Gratitude meter pegs out, my man, pegs out.
Gonna pass on another round tomorrow. Just relax and assess where the settlement of my mom's estate stands. She passed in Jan., the very night of which I also did H&I. Told the folks what had happened early morning, carried a tough day, but was there and that's the way to stay sober. No excuses.
Yes Dawg, a tremendous day. Blessed, thanks to a few simple, not necessarily easy, but simple steps.
Ya'll have a great one as well tomorrow, my friend.
Thanks again.
Peace.
Sorry to hear about your mom, Knuksie. That's a tough one. My mother passed Jan 17, 2004. I was 7 months sober at the time, and thank God for that, as I was able to be a source of comfort for my father and sister. Best to you, my friend.
Thanks Dawg. Much appreciated.
My dad passed when I was about 3 years. Within 3 months one of my best friends I'd ever had, met in the program, we were inseparable, dies of cancer. All three events (amongst many others) would have been prefect excuses to go off on a roll, being of no service, help or stability to anyone else when they just needed another's presence. "We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us...."
LOL
I must say I'm euologied out....
Amazing how the throws our disease is such a slow selfish insecure
suicide. I'll take the travails and thrills, love and genuinely happy, fun sober laughter, the new found unsolicited responsibilities any day.
To paraphrase Willocks; somewhere in the gap between desolation and love, between between sorrow and faith that the grace of God is to be found.
Blessing upon you, my friend.
Go hit that 78 :)
I might like to talk if you, rocks, or dawg see this...
I see it....
I hear you about the idea that if you are thinking about it, you probably have an issue. It is probably really simple, but it does not seem that way.
On my own, I drink between 1 and 2 5oz. servings of wine a night. I don't like harder stuff, rarely drink it. Don't like beer much, tho some Arrogant bastard, once in a blue moon, is tasty. If I don't have wine I prefer nothing. Most nights I have the wine. Literature says I should only have 7 drinks a week. I am over that, on my own.
With my husband, I am more likely to drink three. Now I am wading into it. My husband, I think, has a problem. Without me reigning it in, he can drink a 5th of hard stuff, no problem. Once he starts it is hard for him to stop. We have me in charge of it right now (and it is still too much, I am decreasing it every night as we speak, we are down to under a pint). Long story, but the pattern of negotiation, strategizing around it, etc. is definitely there.
I imagine going to an AA meeting and having folks tell me to get the fuck out of there, I don't have a real problem. I have a friend in AA and he told me that he did not want to support me bullshitting myself, but that he did not think I had a problem. I don't see consqeuences in my face for it either. I never miss work or fail do something I promised. I am the one everyone else relies on (doctor's apts, shopping, all that errand and planning stuff). Most of the house construction stuff, I have handled.
But I wonder. It can't be good for me, and when I tell myself I will quit, something stressful will happen and I will go have a glass or two and it's like a reset switch. And everyone around me finds me easier to be with.
My husband does not like AA. Lots of reasons. I wonder about going on my own. Just don't know. We have a lot of fun drinking. Just true. He has no consequences for it, either, except it can bother his stomach if he is not careful. My uncle died of liver cancer, he had a wine cellar and drank way too much. My maternal Grandmother was an alcoholic. So was my father.
I might be playing with fire.
Ok....
I have total and complete empathy.
You've 3 persona at work here. You, your co-dependent and your enabler....
With respect to you, if you're thinking about it, then you may be drinking too much, then there is a good chance that there's a problem. Normies (non-alcoholics) do not think twie about their drinking. Period. Although, you may be hyper sensitive due to your husband. But nonetheless, sounds like you're concerned for yourself, so I'll take that as the fact.
With respect to your husband, you're trying to manage an alcoholic (puts away a fifth, no problem.... that's just plain too much, kiddo) get him to cut back, but you guys still like drinking. (Your own words)
One of the salient inflection points in the alcohol process as it begins to take hold, is a moment of clarity (usually shrugged off as in don't want to remember) that I'd sure like to stop this drinking... but I really can't. A confusion, resignation. Sounds like you're already on your way to being there or arrived.
Also, you'd mentioned that there were no consequences from his drinking? How about you already handle the construction, family, etc., etc., etc..... Seems like you're carrying the burden of nonparticipation on his part (possibly drinking related) and then finding escape from the travails of the day in drink.... Ouch!
At a minimum, it is my recommendation that you seek out somebody that you know is in AA or find some meetings to attend... to get a contact and find somebody to share your experience with.... best to also listen to other people's experiences. In fact, that's probably more important for you right now.. Listen to other alkies and you'll certainly identify. I didn't say like, I said identify as in empathy... as in oh shit, that's me!
You might find, like you pointed out in Chapter 17 was it of Fight Club, that you're not a nice little snowflake... That was the author's description of the newcomer questioning his entrance into AA, that he's different than the others, better, not an alcoholic....
Unfortunately, the disease is nondiscriminatory. Doen't care whether you inherited it, drank your way into it; no regard to race, color, creed, etc., etc., etc.
If you've got it, you've got it, that's all you need to know.
And BTW, you can find a schedule of AA meetings (usually) online for all over the US... Go to the main AA site and you can delve into it and find local links.
Don't let this (if you've got it) go too far.. as far as myself and others... others here, too. It is horriffic. A complete destructor of one's very physical, mental and spiritual conditions. It's a living hell on earth. When one wakes up with no self esteem, it's the beginning of a bad day.
Getting in contact with folks in AA cannot hurt. Hell, they're nothing but a bunch of drunks! You see, the single most powerful way of staying sober is by speaking to another alcoholic who doesn't want to pick up the next drink.
Knuckles,
Thoughtful reply, excellent break down. Perhaps more validating than news, all in all. A good friend will call you on your shit, it felt like some of that. I have wondered about co-dependency and enabling.
And yeah, the bit about liking it and trying to get him to cut back has not escaped me. I have privately asked myself what the fuck is wrong with me, if I really love him, I should quit, making it maybe easier for him to quit since it would not be in the house. So I don't love him, or something is wrong. I vote wrong.
I hear there are open and closed meetings. I should find an open one, yes? How long do they run? Do folks come and go? Are there some norms to observe? The coffee probably sucks!! Bring my own creamer? And share?
I don't want to put you in a spot of needing to keep checking this, I also know I may have more questions. Keep it loose and easy?
Ms C., you're not putting me on the sopt at all. You see, as I said, the best way to not take the next drink is to talk to somebody about it.... and guess what!
I'm not surprised that you felt "called" but you really weren't. You simply identified with my comments as I did with yours. This is not something to be called upon as in bad morals or being a bad person that's got to get better. We're sick people who need to get well; to find a daily repreive from the all consuming mental and physical attraction and addiciotns to alcohol. We have a disease, not a lack of character or moral fiber.
And I agree that it's not the marriage (altho how am I supposed to know but that's not what you'd stated yourself) because you're privately asking yourself "What the fuck is wrong with me?" Wrong with you.... Listen to what you're saying.
(I fully comprehend... I'm an alcoholic who drank alcoholicly for 35 years. I'm a professional at it :) I've also co-facilitated for 3 years at the local hospital recovery center and done H&I for 6, have a sponsor, am a sponsor and go to an average of 6+ meetings a week.. I'm olde fashioned hard core type, is a reflection of the lineage of my sponsor , grand sponsor, etc... Enuf of that... Let's just say I know exactly what you're talking about. Exactly. For you see, we alkies have already lived eachother's lives and can meet other new alkies never met before and talk about old times.... it's that consuming, the Patterns of Thought.)
Yes there are open and closed meetings. I'd suggest from experience, that you go to a number of different ones to find one that you like. Don't worry about open or closed in my experience... everybody there you're gonna see is an alkie... so who cares. While they're all AA, they each have their own character, nuiances, styles, etc. There are meetings I just do not attend... infact find them to be difficult... not carrying the spiritual message of serentiy for me. There are others that I find become my life blood, that I Belong There. Fit in, comfortable. Gotta search them out.
Meetings are usually an hour. Some people sit tight, others folks wander in and out.
Usually the coffee's not too bad. I'm a tea drinker so I bring my own... out here in CA, the people at meetings supply us with green and foo-foo teas. I just like my own black tea. I'd not worry about bringing your own, lots of folks show up with thrie very own mugs they filled at home of the coffee shack on the way. You'll find out. Just go, the fun is in the journey.
Look for a sponsor. That's a person who will work you through the 12 Steps. This is the heart of the meeting/process. Women use women sponsors, men, men. I've seen too many times it tried the other way and never ever seen it work.
Listen to what people say. The person who makes sense to you, that you feel some empathy/identity with is the one to pick. And at the outset, you can even get a "temporary" sponsor. No temp cares if you run off to somebody else later. It's OK
It's all OK
And I guarantee, you get into this, work the program... things will get better. So much so, you will be amazed before long. Your life will take on new meaning. Fears will evaporate. You will come to understand the word serenity and honestly know peace.
And I promise you, you get into AA and someday I'll tell you about Fight Club....
Blessings
Knukles
I will try to reply to Rocky, but use names of folks so that they will know who I am addressing. I am worried about holding you hostage to checking this thread, that is not fair. Thanks for your reply. I am not sure if I am an abuser, like Dawg interjected, or "there." What I feel certain of is if I don't stop, I am fully able to drift "there." Nipping it in the bud now is a good idea. It is complicated. I am hoping to get my husband to quit, he keeps trying, we strike deals, things fall through. Meanwhile, they have improved. See my reply to Dawg, you will get the sense of it. No doubt, my husband and I are doing something very universal, too.
Edit: I have screwed up your screen name, for a long time now. Apologies.
My only advice, if it helps at all, MsC, is to never try changing somebody else ... always change yourself first -- to set an example and an expectation level -- and then help the other person to follow, if they actually want to follow. If they *don't* wish to follow, and attempt to berate or demean you for your progress, then you have the answer to another question about the dynamic.
Doing "deals" is simply setting a very low hurdle ... you either consciously or unconsciously know that either you or the other party will fail and that the deal is then off (and the blame begins again: "but...we had a deal!"). It is the tactic of parents and weak managers that don't know (or want to know) how to set an example that others will naturally follow.
IMO, from afar, you have the strength of character to breeze it in ... and, at the very least, your children will thank you for it.
An anecdote: A friend recently gave up pot after daily usage for about 30 years. It never affected his demeanour or his ability to work, but he now says he will never go back ... because he is excited that he now has the energy in the evening to prepare a 'proper' dinner for his young son, and to help him with homework, or to go to the playground together, and also has extra money each week with which to do something more productive (like prepping!).
Also, FWIW, I am the son of a high-functioning alcoholic and my two younger brothers viscerally hated our now-deceased father (though I doubt that he ever knew, or cared - anything wrong was always somebody else's fault!), even though most outside the family would never have known of his problem.
Best wishes and bon chance.
Your advice about doing deals and setting the example is very worthwhile. Sounds like you cultivated some wisdom living in that situation (the old what doesn't kill you makes you stronger thing). Thanks for your thoughts.
MsC: Just saw your note to Rocky then re-read your earlier posts. LOL ... you don't have a problem, your husband does! You are just like me ... a hedonist who can control your own drinking--when you want to--with a partner who can't. And you're [rightfully] feeling somewhat guilty about what it is doing to your partner. I stupidly skipped past that part in your first post.
What to do? Hmmm ... I choose not to drink alone, and actively manage a weaker partner's drinking, but way over-indulge when with others (for much the same reasons that you do...it leads to "interesting" outcomes and, as a hereditary latent alcoholic, it feels really good). For example, I only drink a Campari-Soda at business lunches, else I will just have to write the afternoon off and get stuck into the red wine and cognac.
It sounds like you can easily control the amount consumed at home...you just need to have the patience to wait until your partner catches on that you have taken your foot off the accelerator. It sounds to me that he would like to please you.
I could be way off the mark [again!] with the above, but I do think you chose your pseudonym well. ;)
Over and out.
Knukles did a good job of breaking it down, and everything he said is on point. The one thing I would add is, there are alcohol abusers who are not alcoholic, but it is a very fine line. I don't know when or how you cross the line from alcohol abuser to alcoholic, but I do know once the line is crossed, there is no going back. Once you're an alcoholic, you don't reverse it to just being a drinker. With that being said, there are certainly some red flags for you, Ms. The big one being the family connection. There is a lot of evidence to support a genetic connection, so if it's in the family, you're more prone to "catching" it.
As far as meetings go, I would say you can go to either open or closed, if you're going for your own good. You don't even have to open your mouth if you don't want to. Meetings typically last an hour. Come and go isn't the norm (meaning getting up and leaving during the meetings) but it happens often. If you want to leave, leave, but I would recommend sitting through the whole thing. Norms are, no crosstalk. One person speaks at a time. Some meetings people raise their hands, other meetings people just speak up. Best thing is to observe, and maybe raise your hand if you want to share something, or even ask a question. State your first name, and if you aren't sure you're an alcoholic, you don't need to introduce yourself as one. Just say, "Hi, my name is MsCreant and this is my first meeting. I have a question..." Or whatever. But mainly listen. You might hear something that strikes a chord with you.
And just to be on the safe side, bring your own coffee ;-)
Thanks dawg,
I may come back here, or I may find other threads to ask questions, don't want to hold ya'll hostage to this location. I am positive I am an abuser (at least), and there are things about that which are insideous. I might be giving my husband leeway to kill himself he would not otherwise have. We shall see. Listening sounds good. When I do go to a meeting (and I won't do it "on the sly") all hell will break loose in my relationship, I fear. I know that is not a good reason not to go. But it is there in front of me. Thanks for your answer, I did interrupt you and knukles!
Ya'll know where to find me if you want to chat.
K
MsC, the last thing you have to worry about is interrupting me and Knukles. One of the reasons I (and probably Knukles and Rocky, too) am so open about my alcoholism is because I want to help anyone who is having concerns about their own drinking. I know the mental acrobatics that go along with the struggle. Am I or am I not? It can be exhausting trying to figure out if you want it or need it, and trying to control it when you indulge. I'll float a trial balloon out whenever the subject comes up, and I've had more than a few people pull me aside and express their own concerns. I try to be available any time someone reaches out for help.
I also know that it is a progressive disease, and only gets worse over time, so I commend you for wanting to nip it in the bud, so to speak. I'm available any time you want to talk about it, and I can offer my experience, strength and hope. There are a bunch of us here who are sober alcoholics, and I confidently speak for all of us when I say we'll help you any way we can. I appreciate your contribution here on ZH and I always read your posts with interest. Your insight is appreciated. I'm sure we can figure out a way to get some email going, if you'd like to correspond that way. Whatever the case, you have some resources available to you here. All the best to you and yours.
I'm following this conversation. I've been sober since 1991 and have been down all the roads mentioned, except for having lived under a bridge in a cardboard box. I'm one of those so-called high bottom drunks.
You can just copy this and send it to DoChenRollingBearing and he'll send it on to me directly. I'm available in all circumstances. That's what we do -- and it's a selfish move on my part. Carrying the message is my role in this thing.
A useful rule for you to decide about meetings: The only requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking. I often hear, "My name is XXX and I have a desire not to drink today". Simple. When called on, a person can simply say, "Thank you but I'd like to listen." Simple stuff. No gut-wrenching confessions necessary.
I have a sponsor and a grand-sponsor, and I sponsor as well. I've had some return to drinking and some go on to normal lives as normal drinkers. In the latter case, one could argue that the person didn't meet the criteria for being alcoholic. If you can control it, it's not alcoholic drinking. Alcoholism is the only disease that I know of that is self-diagnosed. Nobody can tell me I have it; I have to determine that myself. The sponsorship goal is to help oneself stay sober. I guess it works.
As for the hubby -- Alanon has yet to be mentioned, but it is a fine alternative or addition to anyone's AA program. There are many "double winners", my wife being one. She has 20 years+ in both programs.
As for relationships, I read many years ago that love can be unconditional, but relationships never are. I love both my kids but would have kicked them out of the house upon particular behaviors. Love has a lot to do with how we treat each other but it's not the only determinant.
Rocky,
Thanks for the input and the extended message. I have wondered if I needed to be in Al Anon and not AA.
1. I am sure the amount I consume is not good for my body. But it is not so much that anyone's alarms go off.
2. We went off of it for a month 11 days together back in July/August. It was a good thing, I dropped a few pounds (not that I am bad that way, but still), our energy was good. I was so pissed when he just decided to start drinking (I will say, there was a physical pain issue which made it easy for him to pick it up). There have been two or three other aborted attempts to get back on the wagon. Once, we just decided not to do it together, that he was doing it. I drank privately. That is when I discovered I am pretty much fine with 1 or on occassion 2 drinks at night. This is my problem with owning the label, when I am not drinking with him, I really don't drink much at all. It does not "creep up." Some nights I would forget to have any at all, though I could have. This is why I don't just go ahead and say "Hi, I am MsCreant, and I am an alcoholic."
3. With my husband, it starts to creep up. I am responsible for that, not him, but it is what we both observe. It's as if he and I both have demons inside us that love to trick us hosts into getting loose so that they can come out and play together. Those demons really dig each other. We have a whole lot of fun drinking. We are not uptight but playful. We don't find playful as easy without it. But we do find something else that is pretty darn good. In the morning we will reflect on what took place and sometimes make really great breakthroughs in terms of understanding ourselves and the relationship. Those insights don't always seem to stick though (sometimes they do) and sometimes one or the other of us will be disapponted for not following through. Hope that made sense.
4. There is complexity I have not shared yet. One obvious one, my hubby is a shrink. Let that sink in. A shrink. With lots of opinions. Some of them worthwhile. Some of them are excellently defended bullshit. You follow?
5. Here is the killer. He did do AA, he did not touch a drop of booze for 9 years. He met me. One interpretation is that I got him back into drinking. I know that is not right, he is responsible for him. But I know I talked him into it. There, said it.
On email, the two times I have contacted someone from this site, I accidentally gave up my identity (one who does not want to be named and chindit). The third time, I just let it hang out (Davey Jones). The result is fine, no problems. But I am uncertain about the email thing. While this does feel a little exposed here, at least we can be a group. But yeah, this won't work well for long.
This would be about as far as the discussion can go "publicly". I got sober at the age of 42. Drinking hard!
If you aren't where I was, if drinking is not causing problems, if it's just a concept that seems to intrigue you, then you can just wait and see how it progresses. If it even does.
The mere fact that you joined the conversation tells us something, if nothing other than you should monitor the situation.
Having a shrink in the family can be good, but it also has its drawbacks. One CAN be too smart for AA. I've seen it too many times. I had to get near drooling stupid before I let go of my ego enough to succeed.
The spiritual part of the program of AA is anathema to many. It seems religious or cult-like to those who don't understand it. The hubby might have a problem with that -- or not. It's not religious, and it's not a cult. It just works, that's all. I have several AA friends who are atheists, and it works for them.
The offer stands to be available at your leisure.
Those of us in the program define an alcoholic as somebody that has trouble controlloing their drinking.
Doesn't maen under the bridge in a dirty raincoat with a bottle of MD20-20 wrapped in a brown paper bag.
Just trouble controlling it.
Moreover, normies (non-alcoholics in the parlance of AA) do not worry about thier drinking. They don't even think about it.
If you're thinking like that, I'd humbly suggest that it's starting to get some kind of hold....
My name is Knukles. I am an alcoholic. My sobriety date is 3/21/05
Congrats. B'day coming up for you.
They say if you can ask yourself if you're crazy you're probably not.
If you have to ask yourself if you're an alcoholic, you probably are.
Aaaargh!
Yahoo Mail POS.
redbreast irish potstill whisky, neat
Pappy Van Winkle - 15 year
Gin and Tonic. I quite enjoy all the interaction on this site. A lot of great minds and good wit.
an amazing collection of misfits, love it
Layer Cake Malbec is nice. OT-----went to an Arlo Guthrie concert last night celebrating Woody Guthrie's 100 bd. Being a Ron Paul supporter, he brought up Ronnie RayGun closing all of the mental hospitals & throwing the patients out on the streets. NOW they're all running for POTUS.
Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVhRRyWIvmw
Comin into Los Angeleeeeeeezzzzz
WillyGroper
I saw Arlo and Pete Seeger in '85, fortieth aniversary of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing. I met Arlo walking the street and talked to him a bit, then again I did flash my press pass. Got his autograph.
Seeger was leading a candlelight vigil for the event.
I saw Arlo at Penn State in the late '80s and to the best of my recollection it was also on Woody's birthday.
You said "Penn State" and "Woody" in the same sentence............................
I can't decide: Guiness, Bully hill Love My Goat or a Bloody Mary made with Svedka.
I miss this place: http://www.facebook.com/clarks.ale.house?sk=wall
22 Beers, 1 Sandwich.
I spent a whole afternoon and evening here- I took a break for a concert at the Landmark Theater...Memories.
You have memories after all that? Good for you!
Hahaha...22 beers on tap...I wanted to sample them all...they keep them all at constant temperatures; some are served warmer, someare served colder and NO LITE BEER (Ewww!)...they only serve one sandwich: Roastbeef with red onion.
I saw Tori amos for the Dew Drop Inn Tour...
Tide's going out now... Let's see who is naked!
Great metaphor!
Yeah, too bad it's wunna dem tide's dat da fishies are all floppin on da sand.
Just gotta wait fer da big wall a water ta wipe da slate clean....
I still have my towel.
A towel and events like these. DON'T PANIC!
+1 For Hitchhikers; I'm still waiting for them to declare leaves the new currency, and then burn the forests down in an attempt to revalue.
There will be no panic. Nobody wants to see me remove my towel. Not even the tide.
Speaking of which...
We took the mother-in-law-from-hell to Florida not long ago. She's been widowed for several years now. We thought it would be good for her to sit on the beach and meet some other retirees and older folks. Problem is, she's so fucking nasty even the tide wouldn't take her out. We had to bring her back and think of another plan.
Fuck it, I'll just make an anonymous call to the "See Something, Say Something" hotline and get rid of her that way.
I gotcha beat on the mother in law department. My mother in law fuckin LIVED in N Flawduh all her life. (Come to think of it, so did Mrs. OldPhart).
She was the penultimate church lady of the dancing snake handlers that speak in tongues, run around, levitate and baffle the shit out of son in laws.
She had sisters who HAD to have been the exact opposite as hippy-dippy love girls back in the 60's. One, at age 60, still had a rack that could, today, still be mounted proudly over a mantle. And that was over 30 years ago.
Took the Father in law to a local bar and was astounded that EVERYONE knew him and caught hell for the next lifetime for that lapse of common sense. (Don't regret it, I think it was the only time he didn't think of me as a complete, total, yankee dumbass.)
Unfortunately, my personal Mother in Law from Hell remained pretty much that up until the week she died. Then I wasn't so bad.
@oldphart - I blame the fucking ocean for not taking back the sharks it spews on to land.
So... tell me more about those racks...
swim suits for sale, 1 trillion dollars
...And ALL the king's horses, and ALL the king's men couldn't put Humpty back together again...
Great summary, Chindit. Somehow I doubt the apparachicks have a handle on the side deals, swaps, etc. with this puppy. They haven't exactly been all broke out with brilliance so far. Why does AIG leap to mind? How could they not be neck deep in this shit?
But to your larger point, yes, who exactly is better off and how?
Um yeah, of course all of the CDSs backed by AIG were "net neutral" also - LOL.... just a little sprinkle of pixie dust made it all better...Esp, now, after every one was piling in on naked Greek CDSs...2.4 billion seems a bit cheap...
But they can't say" There was no trigger event" and they can't say "CDSs are worthless" so the organizations who run the show made a nice, window sticker...low cost trigger event to keep the balls in the air for a bit longer...
Tippin' my hat, TD!
Does MF Global and John Corzine get rescued or get off the hook in any way? What happens to foreclosed homes in the US?
What is the damage to the private bank cartel families? and the Central Banks and the US Federal Reserve? what is the damage to banks in New York city? The more bankers, hedge fund manager and day traders broke, unemployed and on food stamps, the better off the world will be.
What's the damage to Phil Gramm? Sounds like the repeal of Glass Steagall has led to some bankers getting hit upside the head. Good. The sun will rise in the morning. I tell my Republican pals who support deregulation to go to their local piddly banks and ask a banker to show them a CDO. While the banker is rummaging around, ask to see a CDO Squared. What exactly does one look like? does it have an exponent? is it a piece of paper folded up into a cube and taped together? The Republicans start to squirm and look embarrassed.
Exponentiation has a general use in scientific notation: it saves a person from have to write a bunch of zeroes. Exponentiation has no place in the finance secctor.
The repeal of Glass Steagall was voted absolutely bypartisan. The Republicans tried to get some regulation on Freddie and Fannie as they were blocked every step of the way by the Dems. Perhaps you should do a little research before you spout off.
It was pushed by Robert Rubin, Clinton's secretary of treasury and Goldman Sachs, Fannie Mae, and CitiBank alum. Clinton signed the bill into law. Of course it's not their fault at all, just like Barry's bailout of the bankers, refusal to prosecute the ponzi masters, and vote in favor of TARP wasn't his fault at all.
It was the republican controlled congress that repealed 'the glass-steagall act 1933', and subsequently signed into law by Clinton nov./1999 -- known today as the, *GLB "Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999". http://www.thedailybell.com/floatWindow.cfm?id=2241
Ps. Clinton was fighting for his political life with Gingrich screaming for impeachment, and the Lincoln Bedroom debacle - Hillary's White-Water, and Vince Foster's SUICIDE?,the unwarranted declassification of military know-how [nuclear sensitive material] to the chinese [?], etc., etc.,
Ps2. Slick Willy the POS right up there with Ronny
Ps3. Sandy Weill at Citi wanted Travelers married, and got his way. It is said he spoke directly to Rubin [SOT] by phone that day. Rubin replying, "You Bought the Fucking Government" with a loud burst of laughter on the other end from SandytheMadman! Note: the scumbag just sold his NYC [12/2011] residence for $88ml to a Russian Billionaire. NICE!!!
jmo
In other words - Is this good for the Jews??????
"In other words - Is this good for the Jews?"
Hope so. When do I get my check in the mail?
You go sweetheart.
"Exponentiation has no place in the finance secctor."
Just like you have no place here. Get off Obama's leg already, will ya?
I'm glad we have that arch enemy of the bankers, Barry Soetero, in the White House. The bankers are being frogmarched to prison at this very moment. Allah praise the new regulations passed by Barry.
BushCo's brother by another Mother.
The MFG execs are to get their bonuses. The shit keeps coming. Stealing, it's what they do.
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/03/mf-global-trustee-freeh...
Sarkozy's poll numbers will be the victim and a less EU friendly individual will likely win the upcoming election.
Is this a joke? The only ones who CAN win beside Sarkozy are the socialists. And the socialists are even more pro-EU and pro-bailouts than Sarko.
The only ones against all that BS are the FN (Front National) with 15% of the votes compared to Sarko (28%) and Hollande (30%).
Hollande a week ago on the EU :
http://www.lemonde.fr/depeches/2012/03/07/francois-hollande-veut-des-cha...
- He wants euro bonds.
- He wants the ECB to lend to countries and have more power
- He wants a new EU treaty with more control over all the EU state budgets.
Hollande is as bad as Merkel.
Worse. He's a left wing dogooder facist New World Order type.
Gorbachev called it the new Soviet Union aka EUSSR. It looks like Eastern and Western Europe swapped ideologies after the Cold War ended.
Truth
"You will bury you." Nikita Khrushchev (revised)
"We will compost you and throw your worm castings on the garden" Hulk
Nice, +1
Was thinking Greece should use General McAuliffe's comment to the Germans during WWII: (NUTS!)
Miffed:-)
And the LePen choice this time isn't even the original.
iThink a hundred pages of boilerplate sovereign bond angst should just about bring the financial geniuses to their knees.
Print, bitchez, print. Bring the house of cards down.
wot? it's finally called what it really was? Just like the US in worse shape than Greece, is in default but not called on it yet.
It all works _ntil the Mkt decides it doesn't, which sho_ldnt be m_ch longer.. cheers! Sorry broken KB.
F_!
F_nny!
Good thing he's not typing in Finn!
So_mi
Good thing you didn't say the 'F' word. This guy did and he got arrested. The good part is that we got the most epic city council rant ever from it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2sDABp2EJ4
Funny, but he is a whiny jackoff. Im rarely a fan of police but that little princess is intensely annyoing, deliberately offensive, and one of the few cases where I favor cops using a taser and kicking his teeth in.