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Greek Pensioner Hangs Himself In Protest That "Greece Will Be Wiped Off The Map"

Tyler Durden's picture


Two months ago, an elderly Greek took his life in broad daylight in Athens' central square while decrying the country's traitors in government, and who preferred to take his own life than to defer his debts to his children or "fishing through garbage cans for his sustenance." Hours ago, another tragedy struck.

From Athens News:

A 61-year old pensioner was found hanging from a tree on Wednesday, in the Agios Filipos park of the Nikaia area. The lifeless body of the pensioner was discovered by a park attendant, who also found his suicide note which read as follows:


"The police does not know me. I have never touched a drink in my life. Of women and drugs I have never even dreamed of. I have never been to a kafenio (coffee house), I just worked all day! But I commited one horrendous crime: I became a professional at age 40 and I plunged myself in debt. Now, I’m an idiot of 61 years and I have to pay. I hope my grandchildren are not born in Greece, seeing as there will be no Greeks here from now on. Let them at least know another language, because Greek will be wiped off the map! Unless of course there was a politician with Thatcher’s balls so as to put us and our state in line.


Signed, Alexandros 29/5/2012”

His neighbours described the pensioner – a father of two- as a hard working man. He had been employed in ship repairs and construction sites and up until recently, he had been working as an electrician on a merchant ship.



He was facing sizeable financial problems and it was these that pushed him over the edge.


According to neighbours, prior to taking his own life, he was seen wearing his work overalls, carrying his tools and sitting on a bench in the park.



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Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:40 | 2477942 FubarNation
FubarNation's picture

RIP Alexandros. 


Politicians better get their shit together or they will be the ones hanging from a tree.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:43 | 2477946 MendozaErika
MendozaErika's picture


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:02 | 2478022 LeonardoFibonacci
LeonardoFibonacci's picture

What Greece needs is King Leonidas & 300 brave men!!!

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:06 | 2478032 LeonardoFibonacci
LeonardoFibonacci's picture

King Leonidas & 300 brave men should attack the EU main offices first.  Draghi & Von Rupoy should be the first to go!

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:16 | 2478061 SHEEPFUKKER

Yup, the wrong dude is hanging from the tree.  RIP brother Alexandros. 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:22 | 2478077 xtop23
xtop23's picture

And that is the heart of it. The ruling / political class is so far removed from the plebs that they don't even register as human beings at all anymore.

Just faceless masses whose only ambition should be to serve their betters.

When this thing goes up .... oh man.

RIP Greece - You were first, but you certainly won't be the last.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:52 | 2478316 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

is this the part of the book where the illustrations get better?

so many victims       so many common enemies 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:51 | 2478318 Nothing To See Here
Nothing To See Here's picture

RIP to this honorable fellow, I feel bad inside for the pain he must have suffered before reaching his decision. But what troubles me even more than his death is the knowledge that the politicians and the politbureau people in Brussels will look at this with total indifference.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 05:38 | 2478591 tocointhephrase
tocointhephrase's picture

May God rest his soul. 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 09:15 | 2478958 mr_T
mr_T's picture

Many stories like this in 2008. I remember one where a man killed his whole family in LA for $ issues. Sad.. I can't imagine all the tragedies when the GREAT RESET happens

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:02 | 2478604 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

Indeed, ex-President Popacockupalotis was seen chuffing away on a chat-show only last week having he, and his family, utterly ruined Greece in 2 decades of socialism


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:32 | 2478487 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The tanned French woman who pays no tax and is in tight with the Chicago Hope & Change gang.  Lamp post and a rope. 

The bankers, Bilderbergers and also the endless Greek unionized govt workers.  The **cks who voted for Hope in 2008 are just as bad as the troika scum.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 03:58 | 2478526 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

The eskimo's used to put their old people on a piece of drifting ice, waved him goodbye and carried on with their lives.

Orka Fastfood On The Rocks...

About 50 years ago the international community made a end to those pratices and build homes for those people.

And now again... we're putting our old people on a piece of drifting ice... and write 3 lines of text on the internet to say goodbye...


Thu, 05/31/2012 - 07:29 | 2478672 Rip van Wrinkle
Rip van Wrinkle's picture

Barroso is the man that should go first. Von Rumpoy is just a torch bearer, a frnot man.....did I say 'man'. Sorry!!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:20 | 2479302 Hayabusa
Hayabusa's picture

I know he was under financil pressure... but so is Greece and the entire EU - I'll betcha none of the "in charge" elite take their own lives... they will just keep collecting their tax free obscene salaries.  I cannot imagine taking my own life w/o "helping others" to pay first for their part in the scenario and making sure they took responsibility for it before I ended my own life.  Unfortunately we no longer have leaders like King Leonidas who are ruled by solid ethics and are willing to put themselves out in the lead in harms way when the battle starts - all of ours cower behind desks pushing buttons and sending the rest of us to do their bidding... like cattle to slaughter.  The sheeple better wake up.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:43 | 2477948 Ineverslice
Ineverslice's picture


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:59 | 2478328 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

There is a moral side to the monetary issue that so many overlook. The bankers that put people into these positions share in the guilt. If he is guilty of suicide there are those who are walking around with blood on their hands.

Their day of reckoning is coming! Greed and covetousness that ruins the lives of others is not overlooked by God. The prophets warned of His judgments on their nation for these sins and crimes.

For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. (Jeremiah 6:13)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 03:00 | 2478507 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Nature is a funny beast. No man can beat her, despite his ego or accomplishments.

The pendulum has apexed and is going the other way. War is going to be upon us soon. And most of those who think they run the machine will find out that they dont.

There are not enough resources in ten years. The debt issues are going to blow up now. Energy feeds the world; oil. Oil production has leveled off. Macabre as it sounds, souls have to perish to feed the rest. The math isn't so hard. It is sad to see this at a personal level, but it is the truth. This is the truth writ large across society. It is the truth most deny, for now. But, is is the truth coming to most, even the priviledged.

Today, those who have earned good, solid salaries and benefits, will know outhouses when they are old. Yes, snakes like the warmth of decomposing stool. Spiders if the clime is warm enough. The whole nine yards.

How many on ZH really think in 1000 years, life will be like it is today, with cars, airplanes, and all this cheap energy? It is hard to sign up for, so maybe we should slide the decimal and ask it as 100 years. I don't think its 10, but its closer to 10 than it is to 100. And that is when I expect to be retired.

The cities will clamor for government, the ability for government to provide will fail.

Personally, I have struggled with this for a long time. Years. Where to be. How to live. What to do. I have reached the conclusion that if I am blessed, I will see the other side (i.e. an outhouse without spiders and snakes). If not then I feel awkward saying the bastard who is busting my nuts is going to look like blue berry cobbler. I am basically a peaceful man, but I am not a fool.



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:41 | 2478394 Bizaro World
Bizaro World's picture


Things are dark in this crazy fallen world, just remember you are worth more than the crap you own or the debt you owe. I'm sure his family thought so and I'm sure your loved ones do as well.

My belief is that the Lord Jesus Christ considers you valuable as well, regardless if you own millions or owe thousands.

Don't ever let anyone convince you otherwise.

Very sad, RIP Alexandros.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:52 | 2477974 flacon
flacon's picture

"and I plunged myself in debt."


Don't put all the blame on yourself, you were tempted to do it. Tempted by the media, by politicians, by the bank(s), by our grand Keynesian economists sitting in their ivory towers. I'd say it was more like brainwashed, lied to, misled, and fooled. 


The ones who encouraged you to plunge yourself into debt will be held accountable.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:55 | 2477993 veyron
veyron's picture

"The ones who encouraged you to plunge yourself into debt will be held accountable."


If they will be held accountable they wouldn't have done it in the first place ...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:13 | 2478038 flacon
flacon's picture

If they will be held accountable they wouldn't have done it in the first place ...


That's what these guys thought too:




Nicolae Ceausescu:


Pol Pot:


Che Guevara:

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:51 | 2478155 flacon
flacon's picture

A newspaper advertisement blew into my yard the other day. I kept it as a souvenir because this is what it said in bold letters at the top:





when you use your Sears Financial (TM) Credit Card



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:13 | 2478475 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Sears - cooking a piece of meat at high heat (usually a grill), to seal in the juices...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:04 | 2478339 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

flacon -you are right.

"If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he (God) that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they." (Ecclesiastes 5:8)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:37 | 2478490 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Loads of ****ers in the USA and worldwide wear Che shirts like morons.  They voted for Hope too.

Nicolae Ceausescu - I remember this one. Nasty battle but his praetorian guard eventually crumbled.  He was an evil MF'er too.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:37 | 2479423 General Decline
General Decline's picture

"Loads of ****ers in the USA and worldwide wear Che shirts like morons.  "

I'd like to buy a vowel: I?

Ok Pat. Are there any g's?

Wow! Two of them! Great! I'd like to solve the puzzle...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:04 | 2478028 Davalicious
Davalicious's picture

The banks can relax credit in order to destroy nations. It has happened many times before. Look at what they have done in Australia and Canada, creating housing booms. House prices are astronomical. Why have they done this? In order to bring these countries down. Otherwise their populations couldn't be brough to heel. Once they collapse, they will see even more immigration in order to create social division. After that, the bankers will own them.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:25 | 2478092 Amagnonx
Amagnonx's picture

I rarely see anyone else put this prcess together so succinctly - yes, I completely agree - this is precisely what is hapening.

I would also add that they use socialism (social benefits) to reduce the cohesion of family units - by inserting the state as a 'provider'.  This means that when the pain comes, people are far less prepared to deal with it - and instead of turning to each other, they turn to the state for answers.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:18 | 2478239 Poor Grogman
Poor Grogman's picture

There is also a useful wedge created by a government sponsored housing boom. We are seeing an attempt to drive a wedge between the generations, those boomers who have no property debt are being portrayed By some as the scource of many of the problems and "housing affordability" issues. While the younger generation is lured into lifelong debt through first home buyers, get rich quick type schemes, and university fees
This is yet another way to undermine family and community values, while creating a general feeling of mistrust and envy.
We will no doubt see an attempt to reintroduce death duties to "bring back fairness".

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:41 | 2478266 Pike Bishop
Pike Bishop's picture

When the first culpable Banker or Politician is lifeless at the noose end of a taught rope, after being pushed from his office... I know at least one person will be shouting....

"Long live Alexandros!"

The wages of austerity in Greece will likely be an exponential growth of the 40% increase of suicides in Greece in 2011.

Were the people of Greece any less or more  human than those in other Countries.... that they deserved this, in order for the Banks and Bondholders to keep what they should have lost?

And now take the very lives of others as their bonus?

The fundamental argument against suicide is that it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Is a life sentence of individual deprivation and loss of a nation's sovereignty really temporary?

This forced austerity is the worst form of kicking the can down the road.

Because somewhere down that road is always covered with blood.



Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:02 | 2478336 potlatch
potlatch's picture

Long Live Alexandros



that is the stuff revolutions start with, you realize

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 10:49 | 2479496 NO_MAN
NO_MAN's picture

Well said brother! And what ails Greece ails the rest of Europe. Alexandros is correct. Nothing short of a leader with balls will save the day. Greece should seek new alliances and perhaps look either Eastward, or towards the U.S. Europe is a corrupt cesspoole with NO future the way it currently stands. HAVE COURAGE GREECE! RE-WRITE THE RULES AND SURVIVE! DO NOT LET YOUR ENEMIES DIMINISH THE BIRTHPLACE OF DEMOCRACY! SLAY THE BANKERS! REMEMBER THE "300"!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:45 | 2478497 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Canada and Australia are also still functioning and relatively well run countries.  They are not feral hell holes like the UK and the USA.  The bankers will also loot the natural resources of Canasa and Australia.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:12 | 2478608 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

it was the Marxists-Progressives of America post-Great Depression that created the 30 year mortgage (30 year debt-slave)

Bwankers work with left and right, don't think for a minute political Parties mean anything deeper than cheap bunting, coloured rosettes and truckloads of trite jingoism

Govt is a front/sham, window dressing for the big criminals in society to work their rot

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:58 | 2478180 e-man
e-man's picture

Perhaps he was tempted to borrow. Or perhaps he was forced to compete for resources by others that were borrowing with reckless abandon and therefore had no other choice than to borrow. Yes, the bankers have a great system indeed.

May you rest in peace Alexandros.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:24 | 2478257 flacon
flacon's picture

Very good point.


I used to ask my friends:


Who is poorer, that homeless man you see pushing his shopping cart and sleeping on the sidewalk, or your neighbour (or yourself) that is hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt?


And my work wants me to donate "a can of food" for the homeless today. 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:15 | 2478479 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Go forth and alleviate some suffering:

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:01 | 2478602 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Our school district was in the "newspaper" yesterday, now free lunch for all in all our county schools. That means the millionare and the homeless all get their children's lunch on the back of the taxpayer.


Who said there is no free lunch? There is in my county!

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:26 | 2478617 youngman
youngman's picture

Hey Moe..Hey Moe.....they serve breakfast now in my city.....more government jobs..more welfare for  "the children" about an IQ test for mothers...don´t kids..or maybe this.....feed your own kids....its called responsibility...personal responsibility.....

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:11 | 2478726 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Wonder what's on the menu? Soylent green?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 05:54 | 2478599 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

"Tempted to do...."

Since when is temptaion a crime? Please spare me the media advertising mind control bullshit. If he was intentionally misled, that is fraud. Fraud IS a crime. So, please call it what it is.

"The hooker on the corner tempted me to use her services." - that is not a crime, or even unethical. But if she told me that she had a nice clean, tight pussy, but it was really a stinky gaping hole, then she is guilty of fraud. 

I meant, fraud [should be] a crime.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:37 | 2478128 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Hangin' the ones who have enabled the CDS/derivatives/mortgage/toxic debt fiascos that we face now would be a real fine place to start.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 01:58 | 2478466 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

If only gutless and cluelesss politicians had any shame, then perhaps men light Alexandros would not be driven to such extremes.

RIP Alexandros even though I know your soul will not rest until justice is done.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:28 | 2478620 Zero Govt
Zero Govt's picture

politicians are not quite so "gutless and clueless" as we imagine. They're parasites and criminals and will keep the game going for as long as they can

and as we see in America they will set up Govt agencies to continue the theft and stealing and will spy, threaten and rob the productive until they wreck the economy (see Greece, Egypt et al)

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:44 | 2477953 TeMpTeK
TeMpTeK's picture

Revolution is at her door

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:54 | 2477960 Captain Benny
Captain Benny's picture

America lives next to her...  she'll come here next.  Hell -- America already has real life zombies walking the streets and eating people.  2012 looks to be a year for the history books.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:38 | 2478131 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Just wait 'til 2013. It's gonna be a doozy.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:04 | 2478340 potlatch
potlatch's picture

the face eating will continue until morale improves

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:47 | 2478498 Freddie
Freddie's picture

With those looks - that zombie could be someone's son.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:45 | 2477955 AetosAeros
AetosAeros's picture

Employed with a craft yet feeling as if there was no future... it's truly a sad world we live in. No 'New Frontiers' to expand, no heroes for our children to aspire to, and no reason for a working class man to avoid becoming stiff.


I'm looking forward to the collapse at this point, at least then every success will be measured in the number of days you've spent truly living, instead of how many episodes of Dancing with the Tards you were able to catch this season. Except for ZH'ers of course. At least here all eyes are open (for the most part) and everyone's ready for the reset button to get hit, and hit hard.


Condolensces to 2 kids and grandkids mentioned above. They have a lot of soul searching to do, and the prospects on why he did it are pretty grim for them all.

Fuck the Banks.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:11 | 2478352 potlatch
potlatch's picture

Well said.  I refuse to live in a world where an honest working man looks at his honest life, and kills himself. 


Do. Not. Want.  Seriously.  Anger in fact.


long live alexandros

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:46 | 2477956 lailapa
lailapa's picture

GREECE ranks among the witches of Salem

Germans plunge Europe into a new Medieval Era... Are they ready to take that risk ?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:01 | 2478013 lailapa
lailapa's picture

It requires for somebody to be a brute in order to go against a whole number of States; to be able to use the State power he manages for the purpose of causing insufferable pain to other States; to be able to set in course the suffering of a State with the aim to teach a lesson to others. It requires for that person to be utterly inhuman to be able to methodically foster general hate against a small State. It requires for him to be a brute in order to do this, if he knows that an attack of this scale can cost human lives.


Human lives are destroyed by such practices. What do we understand from these? We understand that the leadership of the people causing the witch hunt must be a specific kind of people; brutes, real misanthropes, slaves of power, ready to do anything to maintain their place; anthropoids  whose lives are meaningless if deprived of power; people with no real families, no children and no friends. This means that the people who control Germany and expect certain behaviour from it had reasons to choose a leadership with some particular characteristics.


GREECE ranks among the witches of Salem

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:22 | 2478081 lailapa
lailapa's picture

The current German leadership is a third party choice, not the result of a merit-based process. None of the current German leaders could have been anything significant in their society. Most of them are dregs of society and expendable employees of the Secret Service. Usurers, bankers, conspirers and criminal are the people who have appointed the German leadership. The people who have appointed these wretched people must have been really experienced.

It is no coincidence that they have made the repulsive Merkel head of the terrorist German instead of a more charismatic and with communication skills German. They had chosen Merkel for the person she was then, when she was by the side of Helmut Kohl and not for the person she is now that she is getting older and her ugly human features become less tense. Some have purposefully put at the helm of Germany the new Merkel who had been turned into an android in the undergrounds of the Secret Service. A loveless female living creature cannot have a life. It is a living creature that feels like there is no reason to live; a living creature that does not even have the ability to procreate.

Schäuble is her close associate and second in command of the German leadership. He is a crippled man who obviously hates humans...  Schäuble has always been a brute. He has always been a corrupt criminal who started his career by engineering the destruction of Eastern-Germans. Because he was corrupt he lost leadership of the Christian-Democratic party and because of his crimes he is now crippled. He is a corrupt criminal who got crippled because of his choices; a corrupt brute I could hate more if he were healthy; a corrupt brute who hates us more because he is crippled. How can we compare such an inhuman crippled brute with a fellow man who has been crippled because of his bad luck?

Vestervele is third in command of the German leadership and he is a screaming queen, certain to be completely controlled and to need power so that his life continues to have meaning. He is among the most famous regulars in Berlin gay bars, to say the least. It is certain that many of the DVDs with his sexual stunts have a special place on some selves in the Secret Service. We really relished the moment when he attacked the President of Bellorusia and the latter made him eat his words when he answered that: “It is better to be a fascist than a faggot.” Berlin was left fully exposed.

Resler is a janissary who has emerged from the era of slave markets and the Ottoman Middle Ages. He is in love with Reich and Aryan race and betrayed by his own skin. He is a man who hates his existence because it exposes him. According to the people who can speak German well, he is one of the most competent users of the language, which proves he is insecure. It proves that he has a long-lasting desire to prove he is German, something that unfortunately cannot be proved based on his appearance. He can behave as a happy, cool Aryan only when he speaks on the radio. He can feel like an Aryan when he tortures Greece. The irony is that his name is Philip. He has Vietnamese origins and German citizenshiphe poses as Aryan and still he has a first name that he cannot possibly comprehend what it represents.


GREECE ranks among the witches of Salem

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:32 | 2478280 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

So Olympia is off duty now?

Olympia already posted your post before.

Have the decency to not soil this mans appeal for Greek leadership with your blame-everybody-but-yourself and religious smear drivel. 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:44 | 2478297 lailapa
lailapa's picture

When a leader of a big State publicly declares that he wants – therefore through his politics will make sure – to cause extreme suffering to Greece so that other States can learn a lesson, he must know that this is a crime. Why? It is because a State is like the human organism. A serious blow can hurt but not kill it, still innumerous of its cells will die as a result of that deliberate blow. The citizens of a State are its cells.

If Merkel and Schäuble’s politics cause Greece to suffer, it is natural that its 1,700 cells will die as a result. These deaths, though, are not by natural causes. They are the result of murder, because they have been caused by someone who just wanted to hurt Greece; hurt it more than its own mistakes would. Where is the proof of what we are saying here? The proof is that after the current electoral deadlock in Greece some European officials have hastened to propose looser measures for Greece.

In reality, they nail German leadership. What they actually do is acknowledge that the inhumane measures currently set in course in Greece – which resulted in many suicides – were not an inevitable situation. The inevitable cannot be the natural result of a natural situation. It was a political choice made by murderers, not the natural result of a financial crisis. In reality, all these people damn Schäuble and Merkel and easily pave the way straight to international courts. In reality they bring more charges of murder against them than the ones Ratko Mladic is accused of committing.

The European usurers play dangerous games, because they rely on the false-hearted Greek leaders. They rely on the collaborationist leaders of bipartisanism which has fallen apart in the latest elections. They rely on colleger leaders who sign any document they are asked to. They rely on useless leaders who were schooled in the protestant Colleges, gained scholarships in protestant universities and serve only the interests of the Protestants.

These are the people they are counting on and are able to steal from Greece, without being concerned about its reaction. They torture and insult Greece daily, without being concerned about the possibility of it abandoning them and leaving them unprotected. For how long can they be certain they will be able to control all these traitors and Greece as well? For how long are they going to believe that it is enough for them to control members of the Greek leadership like George Papandreou, Antonis Samaras and Dora Bakoyiannis so that they can have the whole cake and eat it too?

All these people should know the boundaries within which things are moving. If they are determined to lead Greece to its death they should be aware of the potential Greece has to harm them in turn; the potential it has to lead them to their death as well – and we do not only refer to financial damage but to non-reversible strategic damage as well. If they open the Aeolus sack they should be aware that there is no lee harbor for anyone. If they open the door to the nuthouse for the Greeks, they will join them as a whole. Things are simple. If they manage to convince Greeks through their idiotic actions that they are irretrievably and irrevocably helpless, they will drive them to the edge of despair. Desperate situations demand desperate measures, though.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 09:32 | 2479048 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

I don't take offence to your anger for being put is a desperate situation.

I do take offence to the demagogical and propagandistic aura that encapsulates every post.

I do take offence to your strategic placement of these posts at the top of every thread, while having less interest in replying to questions in already dead threads, surely deemed as "less fertile ground". A strategy akin to the modus operandi of paid trolls.

You wrote above eloquently phrased response in less than 12 minutes. People here know that reasonably well reasoned and liguistically eloquent responses usually take more than 12 minutes to write. This suggests that you already have the material ready, and that you are not participating in a discussion - you are publishing an agenda.

As mentioned in earlier comments to Olympia (you?), although I am saddened by the dire situation in Greece and not necessarily in full agreement with the harsh requirements put towards you, I detest the language found in the linked blog, which is nothing short of a deliberate attempt to incite hatred and even more misery.

Usurers are found in all religious camps, and the pratise, if put to these extremes, is equally despicable, no matter where the origin is to be found.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:46 | 2477958 Gimp
Gimp's picture


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:46 | 2477959 Gimp
Gimp's picture


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:47 | 2477962 khakuda
khakuda's picture

This is the so sad. Politicians should be the ones hung for setting the terrible example of living beyond one's means.

I think Obama and Geithner should have to attest to the country's financial statements under Sarbanes Oxley. If it's good enough for corporations...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:52 | 2477988 RoadKill
RoadKill's picture

If the government had to use the accounting methods the SEC imposes on corporations the US would have had a $5 trillion deficit in 2011 and the debt would be $65 trillion. Sarbanes Oxley my ass!!!

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:28 | 2478102 khakuda
khakuda's picture

Exactly! They tell people in AA that the first step to recovery is to stop lying and admit the problem. Sarbanes Oxley is crap, but if applied anywhere it should be to the government. They are the biggest offender.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:21 | 2478079 Believable-Hypocrite
Believable-Hypocrite's picture

And then you have this bimbo Christine Lagarde telling people to pay their taxes whilst she gets a free ride .


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:49 | 2477963 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

RIP Alexandros, may your journey across the stix not be in vain.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:57 | 2478002 veyron
veyron's picture

you mean 'styx'

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:14 | 2478029 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

My spelling is not important, my condolences offered is important.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:26 | 2478095 jez
jez's picture

For that matter, veyron:

1.  The "y" of "you" should be capitalized, as it's the first letter of your sentence.

2.  The "s" of "styx" should be capitalized as it's the name of a river, albeit a mythological river.

3.  There should be a period at the end.

But do carry on with the grammar policing.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:31 | 2478111 veyron
veyron's picture

Screw grammar: I focus on spelling (and yes, a spelling nazi making gramatical mistakes is internally consistent)

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:40 | 2478136 mathdock
mathdock's picture

It's "grammatical".....

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:05 | 2478199 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

Karma's a bitch like that...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:43 | 2478146 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Mythical river. Since we're splitting hairs. :-)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:10 | 2478349 Deo vindice
Deo vindice's picture

By the time this all gets settled, we won't have any hair left to split! :-)

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:51 | 2478859 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Reminds me of the two pretentious old ladies after a concert asking the conductor if the correct pronunciation of the composer was Schuman or Shubert to which he answered: No it's Shostakovich

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:55 | 2478504 wEiRdO
wEiRdO's picture

My condolences to the whole of Greece and to all honest hard working people out there.


Styx is not a river, but was considered to be a lake formed by the river Acheron in Greece.


Acheron still exists in the modern beautifull perfecture of Ipirus in Greece. Really good for rafting...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 09:18 | 2478968 Pope Clement
Pope Clement's picture

The river Styx seems most likely to be located in the far north. Most of the the familiar Greek  place names were brought to the Mediterranean by those blond haired Achaean seafarers in the 16th century BCE. Even the proto Greek language  has its origins in central Sweden. Recent scholarship gives us much to chew on and a whole lot to unlearn...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:49 | 2477968 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

One of the 10 wealthiest people in the United States acquired her wealth by marrying one of the sons of Sam Walton.  Other Walton heirs control more wealth than tens of millions of Americans -- combined.    The productive class "at work."

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 01:14 | 2478438 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

Doesn't seem fair, does it?  So what do you propose?  We outlaw accidents of birth?  Insert the government into all pre-nups?

Most of the Walton family wealth is in Walmart stock.  How do you propose to redistribute it?  Government forced sales?  Transfer to some account whose custodian is Tim Geithner?  Is there an answer?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 06:07 | 2478606 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Don't confuse that mental midget with reality. It can only identify a problem it sees, it has no answers. Other than class envy.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:50 | 2477978 i_fly_me
i_fly_me's picture

Eternal rest grant unto him O Lord

And let perpetual light shine upon him

May he rest in peace


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:24 | 2478090 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Nice sentiments but isn't suicide uncool in the eyes of god?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:47 | 2478151 Jreb
Jreb's picture

Only if you're Catholic. I don't think the Bible actually says a lot about suicide. Unless someone can show me otherwise...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:09 | 2478210 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

"Thou shalt not kill." ?


And the parable about "burying one's talents"?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 02:00 | 2478467 i_fly_me
i_fly_me's picture

According to the Catholic Church, suicide is definitely objectively evil (thou shalt not kill indeed); however, from a theological perspective his level of awareness of the evil and his level of consent to the act are relevant to his culpability for it.  It is almost always assumed that the person's mental state is not completely stable in a case like this, so he is likely not entirely culpable for it and The Church would always (these days) give him the benefit of the doubt.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:46 | 2478837 Blankman
Blankman's picture

So God has to ask the pope, before he punishes the offender (assuming a vengeful God), whether or not the pope would give this guy the benefit of the doubt...  I need to start upping my tithing.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 09:07 | 2478912 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

Euthanasia is and always has been a noble way to go, despite limousine asshole liberal pseudointellectuals.

Don't forget my friends that mankind is programmed to live certain number of years and not more. Sometimes death can be your best friend. Some take their own life because of grief and some, out of sheer happiness having achieved their lofty goals, can still utter: "I can go now." 

Even the law allows for justifiable homicides, which are comimg soon to those with blood in their hands. Vox populi vox dei 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:53 | 2480462 i_fly_me
i_fly_me's picture

Euthanasia is never noble nor justifiable.  It's just another way to dispose of the inconvenient.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 13:50 | 2480444 i_fly_me
i_fly_me's picture

No ... the benefit of the doubt is applied to whether or not we assume there is any possible benefit to praying for the deceased.  There was a time when it was assumed that someone who suicides had automatically condemned themselves and therefor there was nothing we could do for them.  Advances in psychology and theological understanding have led to the acknowledgement that the person might not have been completely culpable and could quite possibly be in purgatory and would definitely need prayers.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 09:45 | 2487091 Blankman
Blankman's picture

Aren't we being a little too egocentric in telling ourselves that we can understand what God is going to do with our souls after our mortal bodies perish?  Don't give me that what happens is in the bible.  After all every bible or religious teaching was written by man, not God.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:19 | 2478360 AEGeneral
AEGeneral's picture

Depends. Was he Corzined or did he Munson himself?


Still tragic either way in my eyes.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:37 | 2478804 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Perhaps, if you've never been sick from the neck up. Who's God? The merciful one?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:48 | 2478156 yabyum
yabyum's picture

May his memory be eternal.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:51 | 2477979 Alpo for Granny
Alpo for Granny's picture

Am I missing something? I mean..besides this guy being a spineless coward who when faced with adversity deserted his wife and children?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:52 | 2477986 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, you are missing something.  

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:38 | 2478388 I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

This, unfortunately, is mental illness, because men that believe in honor, justice, and integrity don't off themselves, they stand up like men and off the bad guys.  They do everything possible to take care of their wife and kids.  Watch 300 or something...fuck.  Take action or something...fuck.  Suicide is bullshit, and those that set themselves in flames is the ultimate nonsense.  Be brave, courageous, have balls, be men.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 04:04 | 2478530 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

Nothing wrong with auto-euthanasia.  Hey, don't knock it, try it!  ;-)

Too many f'n people in the world already anyway, and 60+ is plenty f'n old.  Save some resources for future generations, wasichus.  "Logan's Run", bitchez.

There should be billboard ads and clinics in every city, town, and village... 

"Euthanasia: The Noble Choice"

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 04:43 | 2478537 Reformed Sheep
Reformed Sheep's picture

Hmm, that's just a hop and a skip from Soylent Green...


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:52 | 2477987 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

yeah i guess it would have been preferable if he had gone out in a blaze of glory upon securing life insurance policy for the wife and kids....

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:56 | 2478174 Jreb
Jreb's picture

I can barely imagine the depth of HOPELESSNESS that would drive another man to take his own life. So ya - I'd say you are missing something.

When you look down on another man because he displays weakness in the face of adversity I'd say you are flirting with something kind of dangerous. Hubris comes to mind.

I wish the Greeks would wake up and realize that they have been lied to about just about everything. That what they need to do is kick the bastards out and hit the reset button. I wish they knew that a move further into authoritariansm will only amplify their suffering. I think about what it will be like when it happens here. It scares the shit out of me. It should you too.

Peace and Freedom brother.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:24 | 2478365 potlatch
potlatch's picture

well said, friend

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 04:04 | 2478529 FREEEEEEEEEDOM

If ending your life was a sign of cowardice everyone would be doing it.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:27 | 2477980 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

Hedgeless Asshole Horseman would clearly deem this man a lazy greek. I make no judgements on other people's and nations work ethics, but i will say that this defies the statistics. I hope that more suicides due to bankster and politician theivery like this one don't become commonplace.

And of course the world would be better served if the non-tax-paying IMF cunt would be the one that offs herself in the place of these sheeple. 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:51 | 2477981 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 So much for "Extra Virgin" olive oil?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:51 | 2477982 BandGap
BandGap's picture

Stop. Please think about the forces needed to bring this about. Think of yourself and those around you that you love. Reflect. Pray.

No good comes from someone taking their life.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:51 | 2477983 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Take some bastards with you , if you become so desperate

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:11 | 2478046 Rogier
Rogier's picture

Like taking out a few towers? You're one sick puppy...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:29 | 2478371 potlatch
potlatch's picture

you are mistaking a narcissistic lust for revenge with an honest man's collapse and despair because he sees no way forward.


night and fuckin day.


got it?

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 01:31 | 2478451 Waffen
Waffen's picture

Lust for revenge?

No no no...

It's is a lust for Justice.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:51 | 2477985 DavosSherman
DavosSherman's picture

When things are so bad that people are willing to take their own life, then it is only a matter of time before they first fuck the morons who shit the well.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 21:54 | 2477991 pods
pods's picture

Sucks when good people are pushed down that far.

Happens here (USA) too.  But the media coverage turns them into "lone wolf" types before they are in their grave.

See Joe Stack or James Ball.

RIP Alexandros.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:52 | 2478164 Rogier
Rogier's picture

'Good people' don't take on debt. Debt is for losers. End of story.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:48 | 2478305 tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

Do you have "cash" or receive your salary/bonuses paid in the form of "Federal Reserve Notes" and or "Debt", loser? Your "money" is nothing more than what millions of 'good people' take on every single day including yourself. Cash it out for PM's, good, but it's still debt-based money regardless of how you look at it.

'Good people' also commit suicide for their own goddamn reasons. What you said was insensitive on a whole other level.

RIP Bouazizi

RIP Christoulas

RIP Alexandros

... to name a few.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:48 | 2478848 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Another 16 yr. old girl here last week. Over-achiever, 4.4 GPA, played violin & piano. It's happening more & more in the USSA. Three teen boys in a two week period during Jan. in my suburb. All blew their heads off. This is a reflection of what our society has become. 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:07 | 2478033 treasurefish
treasurefish's picture

Well, that was quiet.  Should have gone out with a bigger bang.


......................RIP JOE STACK!!!

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:12 | 2478048 distopiandreamboy
distopiandreamboy's picture

This was a murder.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:13 | 2478054 janus
janus's picture


too sad for extended comment.

God Bless your soul, my good man.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:14 | 2478055 Rogier
Rogier's picture

Djeez, The Zuck lost 2 billion today and you won't hear him complain...

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:14 | 2478057 BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture  ...................$



                                                                                 # THE #

                                                                         Image of the Suicide

                                                                              Vampire Squid

                                                                                   of the

                                                              Borderless Great Wal Mart of China

                                                                      Hung in Greek Babylon  

                                                                         Is Fallen ...Is Fallen

                                                                 Fermented Naked Bailout Bonus

                                                                  Fruit            of           The Beast

                                                                  for                               Aborted  

                                                          Whore                                         Womb 




Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:17 | 2478067 JackT
JackT's picture

The part I don't get is that he admits accumulating the debt.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 18:28 | 2481537 Jreb
Jreb's picture

I honestly believe what a lot of even very intelligent and yes - good - people don't understand is the power of compounding interest.

We are brainwashed to believe that as long as we can make the payment we are living within our means. I had this discussion with my brother who has a house he can't afford. I asked him why he doesn't downsize if he is so stretched. He says because his wife (now ex) won't move into a townhouse. It is beneath her and she enjoys her yard. Besides - they are making the payments even if they are falling behind on everything else.

The banks are criminal in their complicity. They tell people they can afford things they really cannot afford. They create rotten money easily obtained and sustain the delsuion that we are wealthier than we really are. The whole system is seriously corrupt and the world is drowning in debt as a result.

I no longer believe that constructive change will come. Politics and societies will slowly (or quickly) degenerate into quagmires of authoritarianism. Average Joe will loose his cool and demand change. The masses will rip apart the system and replace it with something worse than we already have because they have been spoon fed the idea that individual repsonsibility is a myth and that freedom is impossible. They will replace chrony capitalism with barbarism. Chaos is coming folks. Only once the system fails and the animals have had their run at it will we be able to rebuild constructively. Things will get worse before they get better. Some places will be worse than others.

Wether you live in Quebec, California or Greece my suggestion is to move. Do it now.

Peace and Freedom.


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:21 | 2478076 barkingbill
barkingbill's picture

 no funny comments about thatchers balls? 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:54 | 2478868 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

There was an old lady from Madras

Whose balls were constructed of brass

When they jangled together

They played stormy weather

And lightening shot out of her ass

Author unknown


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:22 | 2478082 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture


However, this story needs to be fleshed out a bit.

"But I commited one horrendous crime: I became a professional at age 40 and I plunged myself in debt."

I'd like to see the follow up on this "debt" What was it? Did he live beyond his means?

Unanswered........let's get the whole story before casting judgement here.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:32 | 2478116 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

Did he live beyond his means? The whole world lives beyond their means. This situation is due to the enabling strategies employed by and touted by the banks. The whole world can't accidently fall into completely unsustainable debt.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:07 | 2478202 Ident 7777 economy
Ident 7777 economy's picture

I, too, would like to know what that 'debt' was ...

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 03:47 | 2478521 Al Gorerhythm
Al Gorerhythm's picture

It was of the unsustainable kind. 

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 05:33 | 2478585 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Did he get a college degree and then buy a house?  Its not like there are quite a few young Americans in the debt boat.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 05:33 | 2478586 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

Did he get a college degree and then buy a house?  Its not like there are quite a few young Americans in the debt boat.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 08:55 | 2478874 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture

Even better BB, DON'T cast judgement. It's not your place.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:29 | 2478108 max2205
max2205's picture

Add gasoline to that story and you've got a front page story.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:31 | 2478114 css1971
css1971's picture

Poor guy.

If only he'd been educated as to the nature of the monetary system. The whole raison d'etre of which being to get him in to debt and keep him there while the parasites live off the surplus he produced. If only he'd known the money he borrowed didn't even exist before the bank created it he might have made a more rational decision.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:32 | 2478117 cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

There comes a point in a person's life where the obstacles are so huge, he or she has to learn to just walk away and disappear.  Suicide is not an answer, although I understand how he could end up feeling it was his only way out.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:37 | 2478129 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

RIP - Sir you may be gone but not forgotten.


The Bankers time [and Politicos too] is coming sooner rather then later....tick tock

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:37 | 2478130 reader2010
reader2010's picture

“Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves,” wrote Norm Franz in his book Money and Wealth in the New Millennium (2001). 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:40 | 2478137 TrustWho
TrustWho's picture

Hari-Kari was honored in Asian, Chinese too, cultures.  I respect Alexandros action and may he rest in peace. I wish the people whose greedy actions have likely pushed western civilization over the precipice had honor and a hari-kari code like Alexandros. 

Hara-kiri is not just suicide as you may easily be able to imagine. Hara-kiri is traditional, legal, and ritual system. Early men thought that the spirit of human exist in the stomach. This is why they cut their stomach instead of throat or heart. Hara-kiri was act for samurai to expiate his crime, apologize for his mistake, avoid the shame, be a victim to save his family, and prove his justice. It is courtly suicide and no one could have done that without tremendous calmness of mind and composure of action. 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:40 | 2478138 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

So he maxxxed out his credit and his family drives off in the BMWs??

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:41 | 2478140 ZeroAvatar
ZeroAvatar's picture

How does it ever get so bad, that someone feels the only way out is suicide?  Sad, indeed......My simpathies.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 05:36 | 2478589 Vendetta
Vendetta's picture

I suspect when the whole monetary/debt ponzi finally collapses from its current last hoorah, many will be jealous of the dead.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:46 | 2478150 I am on to you
I am on to you's picture

One more life eaten by the Austerity beast,the elites bastard,fornecated by the Pope and Lagarde:and yes its the wrong man hanging from that tree!


Again and again history shows,what the most of us are,cannonfooders or worktodeathers,thats what they needs us fore,actualy they dont need us anymore,thats why they cut everyone down to the feets!

They invented this sad excuse,finansial crisis to impliment the all time Horror scenario!

But funny,how so few,get so many on the run,looks like peasants//us, havnt gone far since the time of the kings,still likes their shiny uniform,their shiny weapons,their cheap boose,their stupid lies,their ugly stupid gadgets,instead of life,which is right infront of us,we choose their steel boxes on wheels, for which we slave and slave,their choise of housing their choise of enjoyment for all these gadget we slave the hole life away,to finaly stand at the exitdoor,and say,for what did i loose my life:Makes one laugh maybe two?,you look at a tree the sky a bird a pond and se life,you look a the big line at the freeway,and se what,waste of life,the haste to get to the end before every one else,whats that for irony,gota have the coofee,3 hearts from Minas and a laugh on the Brasilian CPI Charlie Waterfall,and Lula contra Mendes.

Rest well ,another Greec was taken!

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 22:48 | 2478154 luckylogger
luckylogger's picture

The bankers laugh.... But we understand.....Rest In Peace and The Rothchileds and rockifellers will liv e in hell.................... the ultimate payback..............


Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:00 | 2478185 zerotohero
zerotohero's picture

RIP - your blood is on their hands.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:01 | 2478189 StockHut
StockHut's picture

What more evidence do we need to show that keynesian economics is a fraud.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:29 | 2478271 Shineola
Shineola's picture

Police didn't know alcohol, drugs or coffee.  Shit man, you really should have learned to lighten up! ( or maybe light up)  I did most of that shit before I was 14 and the cops damn sure knew who I was. 


  Killing one's self over money is a total waste of your short time on the planet.  It ain't about money man, it never was. Money is just a way to test charachter and "charachter is destiny". 

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:35 | 2478283 XRAYD
XRAYD's picture

A "Thatcher with balls"?


Then what is Angela?

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:44 | 2478298 newengland
newengland's picture

'...According to neighbours, prior to taking his own life, he was seen wearing his work overalls, carrying his tools and sitting on a bench in the park...'.

Tragic, indeed, and shameful that the globalists and their political pets feast at the famine, and dismiss decent folk like him as 'useless eaters'.

Tax-free head of the IMF Lagarde - the Marie Antoinette of the modern age - has one less Greek to berate for taxes to pay for her pampered useless existence.

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:48 | 2478310 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Socialism Kills :(

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:51 | 2478319 q99x2
q99x2's picture

His actions have power. But it is sad.

Thu, 05/31/2012 - 00:03 | 2478337 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

His individual action means nothing sadly.  Only chance average people ever have had is organizing on a massive level and sustaining the level of protest.  Even then, things often don't end well for them.   

Wed, 05/30/2012 - 23:53 | 2478320 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Nearly 30,000 Americans kill themselves annually in various forms yet our spending on mental heatlh and access to mental health counselors pales in comparison to what we spend annually to prevent Americans dying against the nebulous terrorist bogeyman (domestic or abroad in origin).  

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