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Guest Notes From The Sales Desk - A Few Thoughts On The Occupy Wall Street Movement

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Submitted by Brian Rogers of Fator Securities

A Few Thoughts On The Occupy Wall Street Movement

"The machinery by which Wall Street separates the opportunity to speculate from the unwanted returns and burdens of ownership is ingenious, precise and almost beautiful. Banks supply funds to brokers, brokers to customers, and the collateral goes back to banks in a smooth and all but automatic flow. Margins - the cash which the speculator must supply in addition to the securities to protect the loan and which he must augment if the value of the collateral securities should fall and so lower the protection they provide - are effortlessly calculated and watched. The interest rate moves quickly and easily to keep the supply of funds adjusted to the demand. Wall Street, however, has never been able to express its pride in these arrangements. They are admirable and even wonderful only in relation to the purpose they serve. The purpose is to accommodate the speculator and facilitate speculation. But the purposes cannot be admitted. If Wall Street confessed this purpose, many thousands of moral men and women would have no choice but to condemn it for nurturing an evil thing and call for reform. Margin trading must be defended not on the grounds that it efficiently and ingeniously assists the speculator, but that it encourages the extra trading which changes a thin and anemic market into a thick and healthy one. Wall Street, in these matters, is like a lovely and accomplished woman who must wear black cotton stockings, heavy woolen underwear, and parade her knowledge as a cook because, unhappily, her supreme accomplishment is as a harlot."

- The Great Crash: 1929, John Kenneth Galbraith, First Published 1955

The More Things Change…

It’s amazing to read the quote above from John Kenneth Galbraith’s great book on the stock market crash of 1929 and consider where we are today.  Despite the fact that the events above happened over 80 years ago, it’s plain to see that the modus operandi of Wall Street writ large has changed little.  Smoke, mirrors and heavy doses of propaganda laden obfuscation are required to keep the masses complacent and ignorant of the dangers Wall Street places on the shoulders of ordinary people.  Virtually unlimited leverage for investment banks?  Check.  CDS markets traded over-the-counter and away from any transparent exchange?  No problem.  CMOs and CDOs as healthy vehicles to efficiently distribute and allocate risk?  Foolproof.  It all works fine until it doesn’t.  Enter stage right, the crash of 2008.

The average American citizen is quickly falling behind their global peers in terms of education levels and many find the topics of economics and finance far too dense to comprehend.  So it’s no small accomplishment that the enormous amount of taxpayer bailouts and Fed monetary injections have finally awoken the American middle and lower classes up to the reality of a terribly unbalanced financial system.  This awakening is currently represented by the Occupy Wall Street protests.  However, lest you think these protests will simply go away once winter sets in, think again.  Even if the official Occupy Wall Street protest dissipates in the next few months, the word has gotten out and the message is finding an interested audience that fails to conform to traditional political boundaries.

How Occupy Wall Street Will Change Things

Suddenly, all over this country students are questioning their economics professors about the standard dogma they are being taught which is visibly failing all around them.  How can the PhD.’s preparing tomorrow’s generation of finance and economic leaders continue to teach Keynesian doctrine with a straight face?  How can they possibly defend the bailouts and the Fed’s enormous hand in manipulating asset prices as anything even remotely resembling capitalism? 

As these students graduate and begin their own careers over the next few years (assuming they find jobs in the first place) they will enter the workforce much more aware of the slight of hand that has taken place whereby organic growth was replaced with extremely dangerous debt growth.  Then they’ll stop and think about their own student loans and how the non-dischargeable nature of those loans chain them to the very system they are questioning.  These students will be heavily in debt, face few good job prospects and will thus have plenty of time on their hands.  Hello political volatility. 

And what about the lower and middle classes?  It really doesn’t matter what your political affiliation is, if you make less than some magic number defined as “rich”, say the $250k that is currently bandied about, neither political party is really working for you.  Both parties have contributed wildly to the overspending that currently burdens our fiscal and monetary accounts.  Both parties are deeply in bed with the banking industry.  Arguing over who supports Wall Street more is simply a matter of degree.  Both parties support the monetary intervention of the Fed and the inflation that has slowly rendered our country uncompetitive since 1971, a role the Fed was never originally envisioned to play.

If you’re unemployed due to your job being shipped overseas, have been kicked out of your house by a robo-signing bank, worry about the tax burden your kids will face down the road, concerned that your public or private pension will be woefully inadequate to maintain your current living standards or have mountains of non-dischargeable students loans owed to Sallie Mae, you should be paying close attention to and likely supportive of the OWS movement.

Repubs vs. Dems: A False Dichotomy

Vote Republican?  The Repubs increased debt from around $5.6tr in 2000 to over $10tr by 2008.  They also passed the massive social entitlement  program Medicare Part D without any mechanism for actually paying the tab.  The party of small government and fiscal conservatism you say?  Yea, right. 

Vote Democrat?  The Dems supported the bailout of the banks, the funding of ruinous foreign wars started by the Repubs, the re-nomination of Ben Bernanke as the head of the Fed and appointed to the highest offices of White House influence - the very architects that helped create the global financial disaster we currently face.  Summers, Geithner, Rubin and many others have had President Obama’s ear since day 1.  You think those guys are advocating a solution which would see the banks actually take write-downs and losses as any other business would have to?  Not likely.

Both major parties spend enormous time and money maintaining their own power bases of large, wealthy campaign contributors to try and outspend their competition in the next election.  When they win, they serve their campaign contribution masters well with the hopes that this process will be rinse, wash and repeat the next time around.  Both parties support no term limits.  Both parties support liberal campaign finance laws.  Both parties kowtow to Wall Street.

So what’s a disenfranchised, frustrated, out-of-work lower or middle class citizen to do?

Here Comes the Third (And Perhaps Even Fourth and Fifth) Party Movements

The Tea Party was the first threat to the status quo.  I happened to be watching Rick Santelli’s rant on CNBC back on February 19, 2009.  It was brilliant and really captured the mood of those of us who had always imagined our economy to be truly capitalistic.  Instead, as soon as the uber-connected banks faced the threat of actually losing money, they called their good buddies in DC (in many cases former co-workers) and demanded a payout or else the world will end.  Naturally, Congress feared the campaign contributions would end so they quickly wrote a $700bn check. 

Of course the first TARP vote failed, but they needed that cover to save a bit of face.  The powers that be were never too worried that they couldn’t scare the financially ignorant in Congress into coughing up some dough.  Vote doesn’t pass, market tanks, many pants are wet in DC and ipso facto, the money flows.  Many of us were outraged and Mr. Santelli crystallized the moment.

This led to the Tea Party.  But for the status quo, the Tea Party was easy to diffuse.  Sprinkle in a few right-wing ideologues spouting fire and brimstone and the mainstream voter will be justifiably turned off.  The modern Tea Party, just like the one back in Boston in 1773, weren’t inspired by social issues, they were inspired by economic issues.  And yet, the status quo and mainstream media has been extremely successful in painting the modern Tea Party movement as nothing more than rebellious right wing Republicans looking for something more conservative than the mother ship Republican party.

Occupy Wall Street, in my opinion, represents a refinement of the original Tea Party rant and the next political movement to be inspired since 2008.  This movement represents the point where it’s no longer just financial insiders like Mr. Santelli that understand the graft and corruption that is our current system.  No, this movement is solidly being peopled by folks from a broad array of life experiences, political stripes and philosophical leanings.  It will be much harder for the status quo to dilute this message.  Harder, but not impossible. 

Phase II Coming To A City Near You

I keep thinking about Gandhi’s great quote, “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”  It seems to me that we are at the end of the ‘then they laugh at you’ phase.  Watching CNBC lately, the snarky comments from the talking heads have eased off quite a bit and now they are reporting live from Zuccotti Park with a more serious tone.  At the same time, the city of NY seems to be reaching the end of its tolerance towards the movement.

Next step is the ‘then they fight you’ phase.  This is when things will get interesting.  Arrests will be made, traumatic video of cop-on-protestor violence uploaded to Youtube and people you’ve never heard of will suddenly emerge as leaders in this growing movement.  How will this affect the upcoming election?  It’s impossible to predict but it’s going to be interesting to watch.

The bottom line is this thing is going mainstream and although the message isn’t completely clear or concise, Americans all over the country are beginning to sense the turning point this movement represents.

2012 Presidential Election

Obama recently tried to embrace the OWS movement.  I find this extremely hypocritical given his role in sustaining the very institutions the group is protesting against and his frequent trips to NY to raise some more Wall Street money for his re-election war chest.

How about the Republican candidates?  Most are dismissing the protestors even though the basic premise of the movement is a more fair and balanced (pun intended) system for all Americans.  After vast injections of campaign finance money, the Repubs have come to believe that the banking industry is a much better constituent than mainstream Americans.  At least the banks have money to finance their campaigns.  They seem happy to ignore the circular argument that the government creates money to loan to the banks at 0% so that the banks can then loan that money back to the US government with interest and virtually guaranteed capital gains and then give some of those interest payments/capital gains back to the politicians in the form of lobbying/campaign finance funds to ensure more no-cost loans and bailouts.  What a beautiful business model!

Ron Paul, of course, gets the joke very well.  But the media is working overtime to ignore Ron Paul at every turn lest the American public actually start to understand the logic of his positions.  So as much as I’d love to see the guy win, I still think Ron Paul is a man ahead of his times.  Rather than lead this movement from the front, I think it’s more likely that his philosophies will serve as the inspirational base for future leaders.

The Genie is Out of the Bottle

What eventually became the Arab Spring is spreading and quickly becoming a Western Winter.  Protests in Europe and America are growing in size and intensity.  Awareness of the unfair and crony-capitalistic nature of our current political/financial system is spreading.  Americans of all economic, geographic, philosophic and political stripes are questioning the very foundations upon which our “prosperity” has been based for decades.  Slowly they are realizing that they were always playing a rigged game that they were never designed to win.  As you’d imagine, this is not sitting so well with them and some are starting to stand up and make their voice heard.  Don’t think for one second that this is going to stop.  Americans by the millions are losing their homes, their jobs, their savings and their futures.

In their brilliant book about the history of US generations, The Fourth Turning, William Strauss and Neil Howe called the current phase of history we are passing through as a ‘Fourth Turning’.  Their characterization of this phase is as follows,

“A CRISIS arises in response to sudden threats that previously would have been ignored or deferred, but which are now perceived as dire.  Great worldly perils boil off the clutter and complexity of life, leaving behind one simple imperative: The society must prevail.  This requires a solid public consensus, aggressive institutions, and personal sacrifice.”  -The Fourth Turning, Strauss and Howe, 1999

Whether the protestors realize it or not, their role in history is an important and necessary one.  They are shining a disinfecting light on much of what is wrong with our current economic/political model.  Major changes are coming, many of which would have seemed unimaginable only a few years ago.  Class warfare, generational warfare and perhaps even military warfare are coming next.  As extreme as these views might seem, just study history a bit and you will see that every great empire falls this way.  We will be no different.  And when it’s all said and done, a straight line will be drawn from Rick Santelli’s rant, to Zuccotti Park to whatever comes next.  Eventually a more vibrant, dynamic America will emerge from this chaos and pain.  But that’s the ‘then you win’ phase.  And we ain’t there yet.

Cheers,

Brian

* Fator Securities LLC, Member FINRA/SIPC, is a U.S. entity and a member of the Fator group of companies in Brazil. The comments below are from Brian Rogers, who is employed by Fator Securities (Brian’s opinions are his own and do not constitute the opinions of Fator Securities or the Fator group of companies).

Fator Securities LLC is not affiliated with Zero Hedge or any third party mentioned in this communication; nor is Fator Securities LLC responsible for content on third party websites referred to in this communication.

This material was not prepared by Fator Securities LLC. U.S. Persons seeking further information must contact Fator Securities LLC in New York at (646) 205-1160. This material shall not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of any offer to buy (may only be made at the time qualified participants are in receipt of the requisite documentation, e.g., confidential private offering memorandum describing the offering, related subscription agreement, etc.). Securities shall not be offered or sold in any jurisdiction in which such offer, solicitation or sale would be unlawful or until all applicable regulatory or legal requirements of such jurisdictions have been satisfied. This material is not intended for general public use or distribution and is intended for distribution only to appropriate investors. The opinions contained herein are based on personal judgments and estimates and are, therefore, subject to revision. Past performances are not indicative of future results.

 

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Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:28 | 1774883 Melin
Melin's picture

Neat! If you squat to make a statement on a Brookfield property, you get the bonus of Brookfield voluntarily transferring their property rights to you!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:59 | 1775010 Clueless Economist
Clueless Economist's picture

Give me a break, this "movement" has about as much permanance as a bowel movement.  Less than .00001% are actively involved.

Here in Philly, I was returning from a 10 mile run and encountered the "masses" of the Occupy Philadelphia crowd at City Hall.  Ten hobo looking hipster dirtbags behind a table of peanut butter sandwiches and bottles of water.  Being quite thirsty I took a bottle and kept moving.

I know this was a weekday and the "movement" swells to the dozens on the weekend and REALLY looks impressive.  Yea Roight!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:01 | 1775030 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

You took their water and drank the LSD. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:22 | 1775365 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

"Ten hobo looking hipster dirtbags behind a table of peanut butter sandwiches and bottles of water.  Being quite thirsty I took a bottle and kept moving"  --- Clueless Economist

haha taking bottled water from hobos, you are as clueless as your name suggests

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:27 | 1777157 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

I don't see the problem here.  the hipster hobos are advocating the redistribution of wealth and resources.  Our clueless economist did exactly that. They had water, she had none.

Hurts, doesn't it?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:13 | 1775048 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

the  occupy youtube channel............hundreds and hundreds of videos.........

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/occupytv#g/p

 

how about we start "occupy the recycling of petrodollars"..........because you can end the fed........but until you end the recycling of petrodollars you have not accomplished anything..........

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:09 | 1777124 PAUL LEO FASO
PAUL LEO FASO's picture

Exactly, crash the party they got going on; File class action lawsuit against the Fed and get the money back, see plan below link or google: CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST THE FEDERAL RESERVE BANK.

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/print/365866

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:07 | 1775057 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Nice comment.

Next time you complain against Fed, or bailouts to Wall Street, I'll take comment with grain of salt. You obviously could give a shit about this country. But you take the water. LOL! Scumbag.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:08 | 1775061 greenfire
greenfire's picture

Wow.   Those hobo looking hipster dirtbags just pale in comparison to your cunning, prowess and bold initiative doesn't they?  You running ten miles, them just standing there expressing their opinion. I am in awe.  It's just like giving out loans to people that can't afford them. Pigs to the slaughter. Your innovative nature will surely allow you to soar, while they wallow in self-deserving abject poverty. 

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:33 | 1777170 Mesquite
Mesquite's picture

And while we are at it, Clueless, How about those one hundred thousand homeless veterens..I bet they don't look as spiffy as you in your jogging outfit..No respect for your sh*t here...

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:14 | 1775083 gringo28
gringo28's picture

the whole world is watching our homegrown "revolutionaries" armed with....uhhhh....iPhones.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:19 | 1775097 gringo28
gringo28's picture

finally, some real rain here in NYC to wash away the shitty art in Zuccotti and perhaps bring a little hypothermia so these morons can OccupyTheHospitalBeds next....

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:40 | 1775207 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

iPhones can bring revolution. Look at social media and Egypt. Glad they have iPhones to organize and plan next step. You're obviously el stupido.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:42 | 1775218 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

Guess you missed last weeks 60 minutes relook at the twitter revolution in Egypt. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:55 | 1775273 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

I did miss it, but doesn't take away point, We organize with phones now. Hello? Hola?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:33 | 1775410 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, the Coptics are really diggin on it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:53 | 1776035 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

nmewn, not directly directed at you... sorry, replied here.

Flash Mob?  Broadcast device?  Receiver for important announcements?  Video recorder?  Communication device?  Alert others of arrest?  Beat back police with device?  Stop bullets with device? last 2 are a joke obviously, but the phones are really indispensable today, in todays revolution...

Twitter and all that crap is just temporary, we have people working on networks / apps / protection.  I heard some unverified rumors that someone hacked three rally sites... Philly / Boston / or some such.  The same time, police were apparently making a raid on one rally site somewhere.

We know they're pissed off.  We know the authorities have infiltrated the organization / rallies.  We are using technology to facilitate the protest, same as internet allowed for broader communication.  We are trying to work on redundant technologies so if they take down the backbone, we can still communicate.

Smart phones are a useful tool. There is nothing precious about them, and people who use them and protest are not disingenuous.  Noone said they want to live in the dark ages, they said they don't want to live under corporate greed, and financial corruption. 

Don't some of you losers have someone to rob?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 08:28 | 1776681 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Ranger,

You guys are protesting the financial sector for taking taxpayer bailouts only it appears to me.

You are not protesting public sector unions whose members also recieved "bailout" money through the 878 billion dollar "shovel ready" jobs act. This came through the states from the federal government.

You are also not protesting tenured college professors who kept their jobs through the same vehicle. You are also not protesting "green energy" which is a cesspool of crony capitalism.

It rings hollow to me.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 09:38 | 1776736 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Actually, there are many different protests in one Nmewn.  I am not in control of any of the people expressing their views, but I have what I consider to be informed and thoughtful opinions on a vast array of the economy and I tend to think in terms of future.  I discuss these with people as I encounter them, and some understand some don't.

My opinion is that the economy is supposed to be at the service of everyone.  I don't have a problem with Unions per se, I think they are now mostly irrelevant.  When automation kicked in during the 60's, that was the death knell of the Union, because it was the death knell of jobs also.  Unions are by definition, protectors of jobs, but what we needed was organizations which worked to protect human security, not job security.  See, there's nothing wrong with automation and loss of jobs, as long as you transition society from a jobs oriented structure to a surplus society structure. We did not, which is why there is such upheaval today, and it wil only get much worse as we proceed.  Machines will replace us in the tedious jobs we perform now, and we can fight it or adapt.

I am not advocating for lazy loafers of any sort, government or corporate.  My proposal for an automated society requires that everyone who is alive be given food / shelter / clothing and many other goods, and that requires in return Action from the recipient.  Look at life like a PHD, work out a thesis and follow through.  Automation does not need to lead to lack of choices...computerization / algorithms can be employed to create custom machine made items if we just set aside the cost idea.... automation will eventually lead to loss of money... it won't be necessary.  People will be enlisted to work on technology / engineering / design / research problems.  Education will still be required, but it will be free.  You will be required to be productive in some manner that is beneficial to society, and your own self esteem will drive you to be productive.  So will a revised educational system which reinforces creativity, independent thinking, innovation, etc. 

I am genuine.  I don't know about the others.  Some might be misguided, some may be delusional. It is a society afterall.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:13 | 1776768 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, I'm almost speechless.

"My proposal for an automated society requires that everyone who is alive be given food / shelter / clothing and many other goods,..."

Given to them by whom? I already know the answer...but I want to hear it from you.

"...and that requires in return Action from the recipient."

Really?

And if they choose to not participate in this brand new centrally planned economy...what is to become of them? What is the value of a poet...musician...film maker...and who or what assigns it?

This has already been tried and the results were devastating to the common people.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:28 | 1776787 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

You already live in that world... you do not make your own food, your own car, your own money, your own anything.  You do a few things and that "earns" you the other things.  You just don't realize that the "money" is the only thing different between what I said and what you think you do.  And I will not try to convince you that capitalism is not to the benefit of anyone except the oppressors. 

 

What was tried was to force people into labor camps where surplus was to be extracted from manual labor.  They were forced into certain trades by a psychologically corrupt leadership.  Stop reacting and start thinking.  What system could overcome the problems encountered in the former communist states? How about Leaderless governance?  How about using technology to liberate people from labor camps?  How about working on increasing productivity from farming?  How about teaching people how to do Urban farming?

 

I am not talking about a society that is full of takers, I am talking about a society where basic needs are met by technology, so that we can concentrate our efforts on better / more important things than competition among each other... we can cooperate and build the space ships to travel the universe, we can work together to create renewable enery sources so we can all live free of energy tyranny, we can end resource based aggressions.

 

Plus, I take into account the likelihood that we will run out of fresh water, oil, food, etc if we do not start working on purification, alternate energy, farming in more imaginative ways.  No one said the food has to come from a central repository... the community I see asks people to grow some of their own food in vertical farms.  Imagine buildings where some of your home is a dedicated greenhouse by design.

 

Anyway, I do not want to return to your past.  I want to proceed towards my future.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:17 | 1788290 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...You just don't realize that the "money" is the only thing different between what I said and what you think you do. 

No, the big difference is that you're advocating that economic decisions be made not on the basis of price discovery but by some kind, loving, all-knowing Big Brother(s) - ie, politically. There's no difference between your vision and the visions (or, at least, the urgings) of all communist revolutionaries. Food, clean water, shelter, education... none of these things just arises out of nowhere, they have to be created, and that takes capital. Which leads us to your next statement...

And I will not try to convince you that capitalism is not to the benefit of anyone except the oppressors.

Chum, someone has to organize the surplus wealth that is used to fund capital projects. Unless you want to live life as a nomad, there has to be excess wealth - ie, capital to pay for projects that produce everything we need to live anything richer than a neolithic standard of living. ie, capitalism has existed in some form for millennia. So the key point is: who controls that surplus wealth? Private individuals on behalf of willing investors, or bureaucrats who raise it through coercion? At the moment, we're much closer to the latter than the former, and that's why we're in the parlous state we're in.

What was tried was to force people into labor camps where surplus was to be extracted from manual labor.  They were forced into certain trades by a psychologically corrupt leadership.

Ah, yes, it was all the leadership's fault. Not the system that encouraged and allowed control-freaks to assume leadership positions - that is to say, any system that enables people to be coerced into working for the collective.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:06 | 1776854 Blankman
Blankman's picture

Ranger - you are assuming that everyone is equal in intelligence and in drive.  They are not.

 

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:28 | 1776886 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

No, in fact I am not.  I am well aware some are less intelligent than others, less capable than others, less whatever than others.

 

It is You who is assuming that you are entitled to something more because of intelligence, drive, capability, etc.  Has it occurred to You that being intelligent, driven, capable, etc are uncontrollable genetic / physiological / biological conditions that people should not be penalized for, any more than they should be for skin color or sexual preference?

 

I doubt it has.

 

I will make 1 assumption for you... I will assume that you would not be so quick to defend the corrupt system if it was You who was a dim witted slave of African decent during the 1700 / 1800's.  I bet you would not like that economic model too much.  How about the racially divided world of the 1950's?  How about that intelligence of yours?

 

I really do believe in this dictum, but honestly, I didn't know it was Marx until I just looked it up.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".  Except in the society I believe we can construct Need will be replaced by Want, because we can produce much more than we currently do, and there need be no shortages.  Why own a yacht if you can just use one when you feel like it?  Why own a fancy car when you can just use one when you feel like it.  If you feel like using it 365 days a year, so be it.  Fine.  Think for god's sake, don't just react.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:39 | 1777386 diesheepledie
diesheepledie's picture

OMG a true Marxist? Newsflash. This theory does not work, for the simple reason it goes against nature. Nature will snuff out those who try and implement this illogical system; usually with great violence.

"It is You who is assuming that you are entitled to something more because of intelligence, drive, capability, etc."

Entitlement has nothing to do with. I will TAKE more because of my superior intelligence, drive, and capability. And I will thrive and produce offspring that have similar traits. And because of your lack of these things, you will not thrive, or produce offspring of any quality.

That's how nature works. Sorry.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 18:45 | 1777582 nmewn
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 12:46 | 1778883 Blankman
Blankman's picture

Ranger - by your logic a mental retard should be allowed to: a) own a handgun, b) pick out a ferrari and drive it as fast as he likes c) take a yacht out on the ocean for a pleasure cruise.  All three will get this person or someone else killed.  And you tell me to think don't just react.

 

In response to you trying to break this down into some sort of damned racial fight:  no I am not black.  I (barely finished high school, however i am more well read than most) am the son of what you might consider an above intelligence father who was the son of german immigrant farmers (circa 1910), who were the sons of german farmers, who were.....  I do not understand the argument of people who jump into the way back machine and try to argue that if I was this or that 200 years ago I would be this or that now.  I do not live in those worlds and those who wish to remain in them can have them.  For the most part anyone with even limited abilities can seperate themselves from the herd should they choose to throw off the shackles that bind them (mentally and emotionally).  

 

Because I have chosen by my drive to read books, study human psychology and listen to achievements and mistakes of my peers as opposed to sitting on my ass watching television I should be greatful to some bum on the street who wants to take my car for a ride simply because he has a want to.  Here is what will happen should your plan ever be implemented, I along with all the other hard working people in the world will see no need to produce these goods and services and then where would that leave you.  Don't get me wronog if I had the choice (and the money) I would rather be sitting on the beach drinking ice cold beer all day long under a bamboo handled giant umbrella.  But at this point in my life I can not do that.  Heres to that umbrella!   

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 18:31 | 1779520 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

What?  So you are well read, driven, and successful. So what?  Why do you need to make the determination that you are "better" and "more deserving" than someone else?  You should stick to your books... you still have a lot to learn.  Look, this is about ideas that have been present as undercurrents throughout history.  There is a reason for that.  Think about it instead of hating.  Why do so many people throughout history go out on a limb to be charitable or utopian?  Kind heart.  Why so many kind hearts?  WHY NOT?  You are relying on history to determine that you would lose by participating in a new classless economy. You don't use your imagination, innovation, superior intelligence to try to find a way to make it possible.  WHY?  Is it possible that you are not as imaginative / innovative / smart as you think you are?  All I'm saying is, for god's sake, there are other ways, and there are people suffering, so why not look for ways to end their suffering. How fiucking dare you greedy bastards deem me to be the dim witted one, when it is you who is closed minded and repeating only history over and over, to the benefit of the people at the top of the fucking pyramid. Do you also think the Caste system in India is sound?  How about the Slave trade?  How about Sweat Shops?  How about Colonialism?  How about Nobility?  How about the demise of your very society?

 

I never said hand the keys to a ferrarri or yacht to a mental retard, but I see the demented game you're trying to play, and I won't entertain that sort of unreasonableness.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:14 | 1779916 Blankman
Blankman's picture

We are all in sweat shops, its just I am not as sweaty as some.

 

As for charitable donations and suffering  I only give (money and time) to children, not adults.  Hospitals to be exact and a good amount.  I will not fund adult sycophancy nor will I fund adult patronage nor adult hand outs.  Kids are always our best hope.  

 

There will never be a classless society unless we are all automatons.  I feel, I breathe, I wish, I love, I hate.  Try taking that away from humanity.

I know you want the whole thing to implode, well so do I.  You see I am from the "When the going gets weird the weird turn pro" philosophy.  Quite frankly I am rather bored in this world.  If the whole thing turned upside down don't you realize it would be people like me who would take over your local regions.  God help us if that ever really happens;)  I really don't have rhyme nor reason, I just flow.  One day I am sympathizing with hippies, peace lova nad all that, the next I am hoping the whole world blows up.  Do I know myself ... yes.  Too well (slightly sociopathic, slightly homeopathic, all around good guy).  I know damn well that if status quo ever was breached it would immediately be people like me who would step in to fill the vacuum.  Be careful what you wish for.  

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:23 | 1788303 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...What?  So you are well read, driven, and successful. So what?  Why do you need to make the determination that you are "better" and "more deserving" than someone else? 

That's the whole point. He doesn't believe he's better or more deserving than someone else - his customers/employers do, and they show it by paying him for his services.

Sun, 10/23/2011 - 09:38 | 1801530 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

One would not accept or keep the "surplus" if they did not inherently believe they were deserving, entitled to it.  Most people think and argue that they're entitled to a certain level of profit / advantage / compensation above others (baseline) because they work harder than others, because they are smarter than others, because they're more driven, they're "better" people. 

I'm saying that these conditions are not dictated by the individual and are rather imbued by nature (inherent qualities at birth) or nurtured (cultural conditioning).  In every case, uncontrollable physiological / biological / ontological systems determine the effects.  These are random events and do not speak of the greatness of anyone.  Think about taking medicine... how it affects you is unknown until you take it, that's because these physiological / biological conditions determine how the medicine will interact with your body.  The same is true of the cause and effect of input / output from the brain, neuroreceptors, chemicals in the brain, neural network, etc... and no matter how much you want to build strength, you can only achieve the build / strength that you are born capable of.

Therefore, compensation because of the random events of a life are in my opinion, ridiculous.  And what I am trying to make clear is that all human actions are random at this level.  What various intellectuals have been trying to explain to the world is that there is no control over whether you're driven, a workaholic, self-serving, a jerk, a brilliant business person, a devout ascetic, a strong brute, whatever.  These are random qualities.  Regardless of your intentions, the body / chemicals / events conspire to shape you in ways which are unpredictable to a great degree.

I'm saying to rethink the idea that someone is worthy of more regardless of whether the customer offered it or the seller demanded it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:43 | 1776252 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

hey,nmewn, got a good one for you...

its about your avitar...

i went to the holloween store to get a costume for my girlfriend, shes going as GENIE to our emp. parties...

i saw a couple of those V for vendetta masks for sale..

asked the salesgirl how many have they sold this season..

500+, its our most popular mask, she said...

500+, from one store, in a small city...

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 08:15 | 1776672 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It does seem popular these days. Some use it for the true reason...others, not so much ;-)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:53 | 1775625 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

So you and Mubarak determined a crowd of disorganized people in a square couldn't lead to anything?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:44 | 1775231 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

... No, you are el stupido.

And since I said it last, I've said it best...

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:41 | 1775211 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

I see CE is getting junked, but to take the scale of OWS into perspective, NYC has what, 10 million people and there are maybe 1,000 people prostesting.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:15 | 1775345 HedgeCock
HedgeCock's picture

Is that Joe Giudice as your avatar pic?  

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:53 | 1775472 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

Yes.  The originator of "Happy wife, happy life." 

 

The man is a philosopher king.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:25 | 1775382 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Probably still a record number for number of people protesting that long since VietNam war ended.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:55 | 1775478 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

people protesting that long

 

Regardless of numbers, they are resilient.  That is true. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:54 | 1775628 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Yes and there wasn't many Bolsheviks in the beginning or even by the time they took over.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 09:48 | 1776746 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Even longer if you consider their intellect allows them to experience life in dog years!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:23 | 1775374 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

 It's hard to take seriously the predictions of someone that couldn't predict they would get thirsty running 10 miles.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:53 | 1775473 Jack Napier
Jack Napier's picture

Hahah, +1. It also probably never occured WHY these people became hobos either. But c'mon, what's more important, freedom of speech and assembly, or freedom to spend all day burning off the bon bons you ate last night so somebody will want to hit it. Just give the masses each a hamster wheel, problem solved for Wall St.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:35 | 1775864 Eireann go Brach
Eireann go Brach's picture

10 mile run....you fucking homo!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:50 | 1775899 Ag Star
Ag Star's picture

Then you went home, slapped your kid and kicked your dog.  And of course sat on your lazy ass and watched the propaganda tube

while complaining about everything and everyone.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:20 | 1775973 Milestones
Milestones's picture

Very apt handle     Milestonwes

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:39 | 1776006 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

"... I took a bottle and kept moving."

 

This is why the country is in the shit.  This is why the world is in shit.  I really can't fucking believe your gall.  I hope we never have the opportunity to meet, I detest selfish people.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:30 | 1776232 VyseLegendaire
VyseLegendaire's picture

Fuck you. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 09:52 | 1778636 thewhitelion
thewhitelion's picture

Great point!  They should have started with, like, 50% odf the population. (That was sarcasm Clueless)

I began revolution with 82 men. If I had To do it again, I do it with 10 or 15 and absolute faith. It does not matter how small you are if you have faith and plan of action. 

~Fidel Castro

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:24 | 1774886 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Generational warfare is in the on deck circle.......Batter Up !

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:07 | 1775053 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Before about 1930 it was always considered immoral for one generation to bond a future generation to its debts.

It is just and moral to repudiate our government debts by any means including violent revolution. The immorality was pretending that intergenerational debt was fair to begin with.

You boomers can rest assured we will not allow our children to be involuntarily placed into debt for your selfishness and avarice.

The intergenerational war has begun. The boomers fired the first shot.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:53 | 1775267 Rynak
Rynak's picture

In your slavedriver fantasies (that always someway involve whining about those above you, while kicking those below you), that may be true - in reality however, it has nothing to do with the article nor the current movement.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:29 | 1775390 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

I agree with Seasmoke and topcallingtroll; the unpleasant truth is that the boomer generation is all hypocrites and parasites who don't have souls. the inconsistencies between their talk and actions poisoned politics in the US and destroyed our wealth; boomers left behind a shameful legacy of debt and desolation. their baggage had gotten so big and unsustainable it'll take several generations to pay it all off. baby boomers deprived the futures of their children and their children's children, their irresponsible ways are threatening the viability and continuity of this great nation. it's time to put an end to baby boomers' creed of 'take what you can give nothing back', it's time we round them up and have them walk the plank

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:24 | 1775548 illyia
illyia's picture

Good Luck with that plank thing.

They have the numbers - and just about everything else.

Nice stab though.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:00 | 1775643 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Yeeeahh...  Right.

Debts that can't be paid, won't.

Sorry 'bout that.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:52 | 1775907 Rynak
Rynak's picture

THAT is about the only argument against current retirement plans: that the money isn't there anymore. It has nothing to do with those who paid in having been right or wrong - it just isn't there anymore.

So, what would one in an utopian sane society do? Perhaps force "haircuts", while bleeding those who mismanaged the money dry?

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 01:37 | 1776385 Cynical Sidney
Cynical Sidney's picture

i just finished reading your 'here i thought' rant which is bunch of givens and full of rhetorical questions. as captain obvious i'd give you a green up, however under the context of ongoing debate your argument completely ignores the issue on boomers? "now i see - it was all just my neighbours fault" you got it wrong, it's more along the lines of sins of our fathers; "by a 0.1%.... rather, it's the 99.9%" ok let's now break it up into generational age groups!!!!! let's ask some questions: who's in control? who incurred the most debt? who turned real wealth into debt? who build up all the fiat debt-wealth? boomers name come up every time. boomers destroyed our real wealth and turned everything into debt, debts that their children, their children's children will be held responsible for. youth unemployment in the US is right under 30%. ever more young people are joining the workforce at a time boomer generation overleveraged the shti out of the economy and left it in a shambles. the youth didn't sign up for this shti, the greatest gen and silent gen left real wealth when they handed things over to the boomers. you can't punish the youth for boomers' bad debts, it's not fair, there's no equality of opportunity, and the youth are fed up. baby boomers needs to hear this, because the natural way to restore balance to the economy, is to repay our debts by taxing whose who have accumulated the most fiat debt-money. in terms of fiscal policy this is the only way, and its underlying logic is simple, the more fiat money you have, the more debt you incurred. There might be other options open beyond reasonable means. when all is said and done, boomers need to do the responsible thing and make good on their debt, or do whatever it takes to settle boomers bad debts. let me give you a practical example: when you make the working youth to pay into fat bureaucrat's pension fund at a time they could hardly find jobs that pays above minimum wage, it becomes generational warfare! there are over 70 trillion dollars of future financial obligations tied to americans, the youth simply cannot pay it off. you can try to put the youth under economic enslavement to benefit the older guys, that still wouldn't be enough for 10% of our debts. two drivers of capitalism include perfect competition and equality of opportunity. if the youth cannot compete in the current economy it's because their lack thereof.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:46 | 1775885 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Hmm, and here i thought, the major factor to current debt levels and the state of the society, is the defect economy system, the corrupt oligarchy, and multinational megacorps exploiting the purchasing power of the population, and a fire military complex - while the only "alternative" proposed by MSM, is to sell out the population even MORE, by making them work for ever lower wages per hour at ever higher workhour load.... oh, and kick damn receivers of the "wellfare state" in the ass, and the evil boomers..... THAT surely will fix the USA budget imbalance, solve unemployment, and everything else.....

Because, you know, it's NOT the majority of capital is sucked away by plutocrats, a defective economy, multilational megacorp lobbies and endless wars.... and it's NOT that the ridiculous amount of entitlements and stuff, are a compensatory *symptom* of the fucked up financial and economy state the population is in.... and it sure as hell isn't true, that even "boomers" should deserve to at least get out what they paid in regarding retirement plans, regardless of how stupid it may have been of them, to entrust their retirement to a braindead system like 401's.

Absolutely, it is NOT the case, that capital of the population was mismanaged and outright stolen on a grand scale by a 0.1%.... rather, it's the 99.9% that are the problem, because.... they aren't politically active in a joke-demoracy that has NO means of political participation by the masses, and restricts them to election bullshit, writing useless letters to representatives, give up, or as a last resort: kick physical ass.

Really, how wrong i have been. And here i thought, that peolpe are living in a system, that keeps them powerless unless they outrightly revolt physically, and sucks them dry. How wrong i have been.... oh, now i see - it was all just my neighbours fault.

F*cking retard.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:50 | 1775894 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I only have one up vote on this...its yours ;-)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:23 | 1775976 Rynak
Rynak's picture

The irony is, that even though i refuse to align myself with an ideological direction (i prefer to describe my views "elsewhere"), you'd probably call me "leftwing" when hearing my ideas about solutions, because i also (but not primarily) include leftwing aspects in my views about "what to do".

And yet, we apparently completely agree, when it comes to what we see as going wrong in current society. We just may not be perfectly in line, about alternatives.

This IMO is, what a popular movement against the current system should be about: We all disagree about what "is", and we have no intention to make it even stronger. Even if where we want to go, may not be the same, we have a common enemy.... and with a bit of mental agility, we may notice that we'd prefer anything that does not exhibit the current crap, over the current crap.

It worked in european nations on a grand scale, so why shouldn't it be possible to work for the USA? Yes, i know, the L/R party dichotomy is very strong in the USA - doesn't change however, that with a little bit of openness, we agree 99%. And it is this overlapping, which the status quo wants to prevent being realized at all costs. As soon as the population is no longer "divided" on the majority of issues, any credibility of the pseudo-left and pseudo-right loses its justification.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 07:02 | 1776171 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You know as well as I how complicated this can get. And no, I don't think you're a leftwing moonbat.

My idealogical direction has & always will be an alignment with my (and others) individual freedom, which is assaulted from every side it seems these days. Mine is well short of the "anarchy" many more enlightened minds than I, have come to embrace. We are not there yet.

My premise being, I cannot be forced into a relationship with others unless I choose to...this requires a benevolent state. This also does not allow for me to impose on others.

There once was a place where this was the promise.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I suppose we should start with what I think we agree on.

Private central banks allowing for the issuance of the publics currency through the debt mechanism instead of taxation.

In America, I believe the purpose of the Feds creation in 1913 was not only to just enrich the top .01%. Congress would not go along with its creation unless it could be convinced it was in their long term best interest. That is, the states long term best interest.

What this mechanism does, in my view, is it disassoiates Congress' actions on taxing and spending. They can keep the war machine going on nothing if need be. The same applies to welfare & entitlements as the money (taxes) is not there to support the promises made either.

I hold up the example of the US Federal Reserve because it is the one I know intimately..but I'm sure the principle of unbacked fiat creation applies across the spectrum of nations and societies.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 00:34 | 1778306 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Well, you asked for a reply, and i think it won't contradict with your views much:

You know, i've for fun played around with possible "society governance systems".

One thing i came up with, and which until now i favour the most, is the absense of a governance-style: It basically does two things:

1. The fed gov has no authority to collect taxes. Instead, it's all "trickle up": The states or perhaps even towns, would have the only authority to collect taxes, and it would be in the states/towns power, to decide about which higher levels receive this collected funding. Phrased another way: The "gov" would have no direct funding at all. Instead, funding would happen both financially, as well as politically, bottom up. The upside for "libertarians" would be, that even though the lowest level isn't the individual, the lowest hierachical entity besides of individuals, would actually be the rootlevel thing that decides about ANY funding. This for example also is, why in my system the lowest levels of the hierachy can LEAVE the "federation" and organically split off. Because they own all local funding, and only transport it to upper levels, out of free choice. So, a "federal gov only forms out of mutual agreement of the lower levels.... thus making it more like a free alliance.

2. The subs always can veto decisions of their direct supers. Thus, policies also do go "bottom up". Contrary to #1, this in my model includes individuals.... i.e. individuals by majority vote can overrule the decisions of state-politicians.

So, via a financial and political bottom-up mechanic, i basically allow any style of gov to form. If the "subs" allow a quasi-dictatorship to form, then so be it. If the "subs" actually manage to decide everything themselves (which i consider improbable, but do not rule out) you can have actual anarchy. And you can have everything in between, because ultimately, the CURRENT participation level, and willingness to cooperate with higher levels, decides what kind of "governance" and system in general, happens.

So, my current approach enables everything, and outrules nothing as long as it is kept possible, that at any time via bottom-up mechanics the system can change. In principle, i just let the people decide whatever kind of society system they want, with the only rule being, that the decision about the system, can be modified anytime bottom up.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 07:41 | 1778524 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thanks...away from the din of ccombat...lol.

I have to say I do like your model of financing the federal government. That is, what can be afforded vs the imposition model most countries now have.

But I'm not a fan of direct democracy which a portion of your model implies as it could very well lend itself to a strongman dictatorship.

Something for me to think about...thanks for sharing.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 21:58 | 1783824 Rynak
Rynak's picture

You're right, it involves a lot of direct-democracy - or rather, optionally potentially unlimited direct-democracy.

The basic idea is: You elect policy makers to deal with policy-making, BUT you can interfere - both constructive (alternative policicies) as well as destructive (vetoes) as much as you're willing to participate. So, it's a dual system: Even tough individuals elect policymakers, they can optionally at any time voice their opinion directly. The intention behind this, is that "governance" can continue to function even if people don't bother to participate (i.e., because they're satisfied), but can at any time intervene, they want to (i.e., because they're dissatisfied).

The funding aspect serves to ensure, that similarily policymakers decide about funding, yet subs can at any time if they're dissatisfied intervene.

So, it's a bit like electing people to represent you, but always with the option to interfere if you're dissatisfied with them doing their job, even before any "election".

The result - at least theoretically - is that anything people are willing to advocate, will happen. Doesn't matter if it's dictatorship, anarchy, communism, a mix of things, or whatever.... what people decide to accept, just happens.... so, it really doesn't "push" ANY governance or non-governance form, but leaves the decision up to the population..... and instead focusses, on the population anytime being able to overrule the system if the population is dissatisfied.

Sure, it does not advocate any specific ideology.... it instead focusses, on ensuring that nothing is sustainable, without the direct support of the population. I.e., whenver a system is so, that the majority of the population says "WTF?", it changed into something people do support.

TL/DR? My proposal isn't any ideology or model, but simply ensuring, that the ideology and model represents the current wishes of the population. I just let happen, whatever people want to happen, while rejecting anything, that the population doesn't want to exist. So, contrary to current pseudo-democracy, i actually wish to make the population fully responsible in action and consequences, for it's own wishes.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 08:31 | 1788318 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...the unpleasant truth is that the boomer generation is all hypocrites and parasites who don't have souls.

What, all of them?

How about 'the greatest generation', whose leaders marched us into Viet Nam and off the gold standard?

How about their parents, who repeatedly elected FDR despite his ruinous 'New Deal' nonsense?

How about their parents, who oversaw the establishement of The Fed, and went needlessly into war with Germany, sowing the seeds for WWII?

How about our current generations, going to war in Afganistan and Iraq?

Every generation is full of shit, including mine... and yours.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:55 | 1775274 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

No, boomers did not fire the first shot. My one grandmother collected SS, as did my father. My mother died too young, so her 'contributions' went into the no-trust fund. As a boomer myself I can assure you that I've paid massive amounts in FICA taxes and was never asked if I wanted to participate. Give me my money back - and the employer match - and I will gladly forego Social Security (which I do not currently collect, although I could). I do agree, however, that intergenerational debt is immoral. Don't let Debbie Wasserman-Stupid hear you though, or she'll brand you a racist who wants to kill the elderly and all women seeking abortions.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:02 | 1775645 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Agreed, you should get that back.

But "The Ponz" will stop, believe it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:57 | 1775791 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

The boomers were perfect cats' paws for the banksters.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:59 | 1775285 Toolshed
Toolshed's picture

Brillaint comment. Problem is most boomers are flat broke with no money to retire with. So, I guess that first shot was into their own foot. Which means they will have to keep working and your kids won't have to worry about debt since they will never have jobs anyway. What now troll boy? More nonsensical ranting?

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:23 | 1775546 oldman
oldman's picture

Hey Top,

Nice call!  Add this to it:

"Then they’ll stop and think about their own student loans and how the non-dischargeable nature of those loans chain them to the very system they are questioning."

That last bankruptcy law change made this possible and it is unconstutional, but not illegal---it is "bondage", it is slavery

Very little was said about it at the time which amazed me, but then I remember Col. North telling all and no one said anything---Iraq war I and II, and-----and no one said anything

Hopefully, this OWS protest is where it finally begins, but this model is hopeless for 99%, so the revolution s on.

As far as "intergenerational warfare", we are one and undivided by gaps, generational included--- I´m a pre-boomer, but I´ll take the boomers on my side so long as I don´t have to vote for them.

By the time this is over, Top, I´ll be gone and maybe my four year-old grandson´s generation will be running the show---even now, these little dudes would do a better job than TPTB.

thanks    om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 20:19 | 1775832 Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

The banksters need more than exists for their next economic fix, a reset is in order.  Their masters will be grabing all they can while their bankster and corporate minions  turn on each other like cannibals, when not occupied with robbing the rest of us. 

This is easier for both classes of robber if they can hot up as many conflicts as possible. 

Old vs young (or Gen X + Y vs Boomer) is one they are putting a lot of effort into just now.  The masters are especially concerned about the unemployed and underemployed youth turning on them personally.  Getting youth to turn on their elders while they continue to rob everyone suits their purpose much better.  It seems they have also instructed corps to minimize hiring above age 45 and to lay off or encourage retirement in that group also.

Gov't employee vs civilian and Employed vs. Unemployed are also getting spark from their lighters.  Get Whitey seems to be playing well with poor black youth when there are better off white folk to rob nearby.

Not all of this is orchestrated of course, and many fustrated folks will strike out aimlessly.

I'm sure we will see many more divide and conquer moves, if not several outright wars.  Wars make them money, and cull the herd of the brave and impulsive, making it easier to manage. The banksters have been feeding off of us since at least the Spanish-American war if not before.  It is not the fault of any generation, race or religion.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:03 | 1775928 Bringin It
Bringin It's picture

You're describing Hegel.

 

     thesis

                \

                         == synthesis (a.k.a. looting oportunity)

                 /

anti-thesis

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 00:17 | 1776315 Dirt Rat
Dirt Rat's picture

One false dichotomy I hate is immigrant-vs-native born. I'm a seventh generation German. All of today's immigrants have a lot more in common with me than they do differences. We both simply want a better life for ourselves and are willing to work for it. It's bullshit to see such hate spewed against them and to see them blamed for our current problems.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 22:00 | 1776054 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Completely true, and Agreed.  All sorts of generations are united against the hubris and greed of the boomers.  Many of them deserve nothing but hard labor in prison, for the devastation they've perpetrated, or allowed. Clueless or heartless, you pick.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:28 | 1774899 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

when the banks collapse and take deposits with them people will be to broke to revolt

 

war is brewing too, that will take media attention away from any rebellion left

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:44 | 1774965 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

war is brewing too

 

Obama just sent 100 troops to Uganda involving US in another war.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:07 | 1775049 dick cheneys ghost
dick cheneys ghost's picture

Bankers and Tankers.......

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:17 | 1775090 kill switch
kill switch's picture

The fat lady is presently on STANDBY!!

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:34 | 1775179 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

They are not troops. They are "Military Advisors".  Wink wink wink.  It ain't a war if I don't call it a war. 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:00 | 1775287 GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

The advisers are simply participating in Kinetic Military Advice operations. And if I recall correctly, we started by sending a few troops to S. Vietnam to instruct the ARVN. We all know how that turned out.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:31 | 1775403 Stevious
Stevious's picture

"“Although the U.S. forces are combat-equipped, they will only be providing information, advice and  assistance to partner nation forces, and they will not themselves engage LRA forces unless necessary for self-defense,”

Didn't they say that at the beginning of the Vietnam war?

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:00 | 1775286 Joeman34
Joeman34's picture

You need to study the distinction between 'to' and 'too'

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 22:08 | 1776076 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Unless you had real difficulty in understanding the intent of the message, you really need to lighten up.  It could have been a foreign language error, a typo, hurry to post and run to work, or just dislike for you... everything doesn't have to be just right to be able to communicate... you know that language / grammar you're so attached to, it is not fixed, it's always being altered... and the 4 fingers which supported you in your civil disobedience... they need to lighten up to. :o

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 22:02 | 1776062 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

If the people have no money, then there will be nothing stopping the people from protesting. Except it will be looting at that point, as they will have lost all respect for property rights.  And human rights. Look out for that catastrophe.

Now, get that smug grin off your painted face, you clown. ;)

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 15:56 | 1777424 diesheepledie
diesheepledie's picture

The banks won't collapse. And the sheeple won't revolt. As you said, war is brewing. There will be restructuring, new masters, etc. But nothing will change. War is nessesary, it cleanses, "rebalances the check book". They are just trying to figure out the best way (to leave the most resources intact). But in the end "war never changes".

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:28 | 1774900 knukles
knukles's picture

OT
You're all gonna love this one.
WSJ just messaged that Obama has deployed US troops to Central Africa to hunt down leader of the Lord's Resistance Army.

Nice work for a Nobel Laeurate if one can get it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:53 | 1774997 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

just wondering... that place called armeggedon isn't in central africa is it?

if so i am betting on the resistance army.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:04 | 1775304 clagr
clagr's picture

It is actually in Isreal, the plain under the shadow of Mount (Har) Meggedo. Har Meggedo= Armeggedon

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:35 | 1776003 Milestones
Milestones's picture

Thank you for that information. I always wondered about the word.      Milestones

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:48 | 1775251 youngman
youngman's picture

He better watch out..he might kill his family...oh oh

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:10 | 1775326 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

PEE Index is soaring  ... ( pre-electoral entertainement ).

Iran plot clumsy, let's kill some African terorrists....

Paul Krugman still needs his E.T.s

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:28 | 1774903 tlil5774
tlil5774's picture

To simplify the solution a bit; just mark the debts around the world to market and voila, wealth distribution done :)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:34 | 1774910 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

I haven't made a comment on ZH or in cyber space for a month or so now, but logged in to specifically comment that this is one of the best articles on the 'where we are' thing that I've read anywhere.

I especially appreciated the preface reminding everyone that the stock markets, for all the talk of transparency, efficienct markets, and other such nonsense and fiction, is just as much of an enormous scam as it was preceding the 1929 crash (actually, more so, with derivative leverage being far higher, and central bank interventionism being far more aggressive), as eloquently explained by Galbraith, in The Great Crash.

If you're a true conservative, you have every reason to despise the current political and economic system.

If you're a true liberal, you have every reason to despise the current political and economic system.

If you're a true libertarian, you have every reason to despise the current political and economic system.

If you're an independent (as I am), you have every reason to despise the current political and economic system.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:38 | 1774946 pods
pods's picture

Nice to see you TIS!

FWIW, even us anarchists despise the current system.  :)

pods

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:28 | 1775560 oldman
oldman's picture

pods,

What is an anarchist?

And, yeah, its´s nice to see TIS           om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:06 | 1775653 LowProfile
Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:27 | 1775719 oldman
oldman's picture

Dude,

That is against the Law!

I remember now why I don´t know what an anarchist is. You cannot hold a US passport if you are a self-proclaimed Anarchist.

Thanks for the reminder---I forgotten it already again---oh well, some things-----om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:10 | 1775950 StychoKiller
Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:20 | 1775966 pods
pods's picture

Well oldman, to me it is an admonition of the state being nothing but coersion.  It would be farcical to say that society has no basis, or a group of individuals cannot delegate some of their authority to a group to accomplish what would be difficult to achieve on one's own.  But that authority does not, and cannot, grant any powers that the individual does not possess.  And in every single instance in history, the state has usurped the authority granted to it to expand it's authority and scope.

This nation (the USA) was founded as a nation of kings.  When the Treaty of Paris was signed, the former subjects of the king became sovereign.  That has slowly been chipped away at, always for good measure, until now it has reached the point where we are today:

Where to bring a grievance against our servant government through peaceable assembly we have to first ask permission.

Where the state sees the children of the former free people of this land as first and foremost theirs.

Where the government regulates, through the income tax, what a person is paid for their labor.

Where the government gets in between the law of contract.
Where property can be taken from the former free people of this land without a jury trial of one's peers, and without compensation.

Where one is not free to imbibe any medicine or drug that one sees fit, without first obtaining approval from the state.

I could go on and on, and over the last year here I have.  But when one sheds the indoctrination and realizes what situation we are in today, you cannot help but to see the state for what it has become.

Coersion.

pods 

 

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 22:41 | 1776133 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

Well said

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 09:40 | 1776739 oldman
oldman's picture

Thanks, pods

Now I don't feel so 'special'; it sometimes feels like I am on the wrong planet.

I'm a political guy, meaning that I have a preference for how I want to live and an end towards which I am working.

My politics are extremely simple---one sentence and no more:

I want to live in a happy and healthy community that includes all species

All of the 'isms', for me are only tools; conceptual shit useful in communication among community members to maintain the equilibrium of our community, the planet Earth.

So for, you see, all that you write above is true, but you left out my favorite: no passport to known Anarchists. I saw this years asgo and every time I think of it, I laugh because it is so outrageous. Why not no passports to thieving bankers or war-mongering pols, or racist assholes or------------???

The indocrination of which you write is being eroded by the actions of TPTB because now we are getting down to survival level. I think this has happened many times before---a sudden and 'inexplicable' shift in power that makes the time afterwards appear as a renaissance of human consciousness. I gotta say one thing about this;

We are not talking about any shift because each of us has the genetic consciousness of collaboration in order to survive.

Otherwise---we would never have gotten here as we are today

This is my revolution----the mutation or change to how we live together---I have no idea and am a mere interested observer

But, I love this time we are in and the possibilities are infinite           thanks, again     om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:47 | 1774974 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

@ truth-you are 100% correct.

Also, what are you talking about not commenting on here for a month or so? You are commenting everyday.

RTM

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:00 | 1774996 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Agree.

The teaparty, conservative, liberal, independent, libertarian, needs to get ass over to Wall Street and protest, make voice heard. It's not about liberal and right, like media telling us. Everyone needs to join together. We need to join with more liberal in group and defeat too big to fail, defeat the Fed loose monetary policy.

Ever wonder why news channels pan over scene of crowd without showing you signs of protest? Because signs show X over Bernanke’s face, or 2nd time I’ve fought for my country, or End the Fed. There are some with signs against Tea Party, or about republicans, but it’s few, they believe bullshit media yelling at you. It’s not about left/right.

Check out price of loose monetary policy today. Look at gas futures.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:11 | 1775069 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

First we defeat the common enemy, then we have the luxury of fighting among ourselves.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:12 | 1775337 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Sign reads...

"I have but one demand.  End this corporate oligarchy so my vote can have meaning"

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:25 | 1775129 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Sorry, but you're wrong.

You get in bed with dogs, and you get up with fleas.

I'm not joining up with ANY group where ANY member of that group is waving a sign promoting marxism, communism, or MORE federal government involvement as a solution.

Because at the end of the day, that's the real problem-- not ending the current system, but deciding on what's going to replace it.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the Cultural Marxists, Progressives, and Big Government types are looking at this opportunity with drool running down their chin. "Never waste a crisis" is their motto.

Ugh.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:44 | 1775226 redpill
redpill's picture

 

I have to agree.  I sympathize with their anger, but my jaw drops at their solutions.  They want to punish the lackeys but empower the kingpins?  Maybe we need a few more "movements" before people finally understand who the true culprits are.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:53 | 1775261 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Their solutions? What are those tell me. Only one I've seen is break up too big to fail banks. You need to stop watching news and go see for self.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:10 | 1775324 redpill
redpill's picture

I haven't heard anything that cogent out of them.  It's more like envy-driven anger about how much money people make in the stock market while the economy languishes.  The problem is they don't understand the core of the issue.  And even if they wanted to break up TBTF banks (I wonder how many of them have Chase checking accounts that auto-pay their iPhone bill), it would be by authoritarian federal intrusion, no doubt.  Whose policies do they think led to the centralization of power in the banking industry to begin with?  That's why it is nonsensical.  They clearly miss the point that government is a partner and sponsor of this activity, otherwise they would be protesting government buildings, not just the stock exchange, and they would be talking about corruption in government, not "corporate greed."  They criticize the symptom, instead of recognizing the source of infection.

If they understood the nature of the problem they would be on the steps of the Federal Reserve in Washington DC or at the very least outside of 33 Liberty.  But no, they instead are going to go demonize the stock brokers, many of which are typical working professionals that are not the cause of any of this, but merely opportunists who are taking advantage of the political corruption and central banking nightmare that dominates our economy today.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:23 | 1775375 tickhound
tickhound's picture

A bit of a broad brush, rp.  I've seen plenty of these examples to include those at the Federal Reserve in DC... I have not witnessed any mention of demonizing the working stiff, although I am sure they exist.  My experience so far suggests that the 'source' is a bit more understood than you may be aware.

That said, yours are fair points. 

Makes me wish there was truly a 'red' pill.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:49 | 1775461 redpill
redpill's picture

Point taken, and from the on-the-street footage I've seen there certainly is a diversity of viewpoint amongst the protests, just as there is/was with the tea party people.  But to see people carrying signs that "protest" a human emotion like greed just makes me shake my head.  It says they are unfocused and to some degree ignorant of what is really going on.  Some of the lists of "demands" I've seen circulated on the internet are a breadbasket of vaguely leftist wishes which don't seem to have a coherent connection with their presence in a park in NY City.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually glad people are realizing something is horribly wrong and trying to protest about it, but if you are going to rage against the machine, you better damn understand what is powering it.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:04 | 1775500 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Come wit it now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAn9TlafDA

Don't think you can't assist in the education... Let 'em hear your voice, your side.  Minds are open for business.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:10 | 1775667 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Right. I have't heard any stories of OWS REJECTING protestors because they don't agree with their stand on the FED or circle of hell Marx should be in. If all you people who keep complaining they are too left wing or don't know what they want would just go there - you could completely co-opt the entire movement and implement your own plans.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:30 | 1775398 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Who's making money in the stock market? Not most average investors. Return has been about zero for the last 15 years ignoring inflation and taxes. Mainly manipulators and banksters using other peoples money on speculation. That other peoples money now including government money those kids will have to pay off.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:34 | 1775412 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

What power are they supposed to appeal to for change if not the government? The church? The billionaire hedge fund managers who caused this collapse in the first place? This is supposed to be representative democracy. Presently, > 80% of representatives are representing the wealthy only. Most of the rest seem to represent illegal aliens or China.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:44 | 1775443 redpill
redpill's picture

First and foremost they should appeal to themselves and make changes as individuals before trying to change the world.  They can stop buying things on credit, they can refuse to fall in the trap of student loans, they can close their Chase account and move to a credit union, they can stay out of debt.  While these things may be more of a hassle than collecting unemployment checks and camping out at a park, they are in fact a more effective form of protest, for if millions of Americans did the same thing in droves, the big banks would collapse on their own accord.

But in terms of government change, the point is that they need to change government so that it is more restrained, not more empowered by greater regulatory or taxation power.  But that very notion is cointerintuitive to the left, and I think it is is safe to say these protests are left oriented.  They don't understand their very convictions that promote government intervention in the economy are what make government large enough to become exceedingly corrupt and create the very crony capitalist environment they are railing against.  Until this realization is made, and until people stop recommending we drink more of the poison that has made us sick to begin with, the situation will continue and worsen.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:45 | 1775603 11b40
11b40's picture

Buckaroo Banzai seems to be a drive-by partisan hack with no interest in anything other than spreading right-wing talking points.

Red Pill is informed and has very cogent arguments to support stated points of view, many of which I totally agree with, some which I do not, but there is still a 'feel' of partisanship and attachment to the left/right paradigm.  None of us is without our deeply ingrained prejudices and 'opinions', and I will admit to a slightly left social bias, but consider myself a fiscally conservative individual.  However, I believe most come here to learn, to share, and many are sufficiently passionate about our country to have studied issues enough to make meaningful contributions.

I have to agree with EndTheFed's summation of this article.  It is among the best, well reported outlines of the overall situation I have read anywhere.  Anyone who has read my posts knows I have been following a similar vein.  Left/Right, Dem/Reb....all just a distracting smokescreen.  A way to keep us divided and drive wedges in society while our pockets are picked, the country is looted, and freedoms gauranteed by birthright are taken away.

This has started as a rag-tag movement, to be sure.  The goals are undefined, but the awakening is real - the Genie is out of the bottle.  What will the outcome be?  I have no idea, but I have a pretty good idea that the path America is on cannot be sustained much longer, regardless of the OWS movement.  Change is coming, like it or not, ready or not.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:38 | 1775753 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Birth pains hurt, bitchez.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:17 | 1776206 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Don't be a fucking idiot. Democrat-Republican is a false dichotomy, there is only one party in this country that matters, and it doesn't have a name. They don't hold office, rather, they hold officeholders. Wake up.

As for left-right, now THATS real. There are fucking marxists and communists out there, and unfortunately, many of them have found their way to OWS. Like the dirty whores that they are, they can always be found in protest movements like this, mainly because they never have jobs and are always looking to make trouble.

Are there some good, honest people at OWS who sincerely want to change the system in a constructive way? I'm sure of it. Unfortunately they are getting themselves mixed up with the Marxist, communist, SEIU types that unfortunately are hijacking this movement, and what is more disturbing, is they are too fucking stupid to see what kind of useless scum they are getting involved with.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 01:00 | 1776335 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Out front, I didn't dink you.

I read your stuff.  You say it with conviction.  I know you mean it.  I can respect it.  Its what makes a free market. 

Flash forward to our not too distant future... assuming distance 'can gets kicked.' 

Isn't it fair to assume that each day technology increasingly replaces labor?  That, under the existing paradigm, an ever increasing number of the population is 'on the government dole?'  Eventually, nearly everyone?  At least to some degree?  Will I freaking even need a dentist?  Explore the possibilities.  And condolences to the poor bastard who was last to go to dental school.

Would the profit based system be 'forced' to change?  Wouldn't something have to change?  Whether by free market, by force, or by TPTB themselves? 

The possibilites should be explored.  It's irresponsible not to.  Labor, technology, and eternal profit based growth are in conflict.  And unless technology can be surpressed by some sort of self-inflicted incarceration, labor itself is doomed.

And yes, for those sensitive to this particular point, education is as free as........ whatever it was that used to be free.

I ain't fightin', I'm just sayin'

 

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 14:08 | 1776737 11b40
11b40's picture

Thanks for making my point, Buckaro.  Labeling, name calling, spreading bile.  All with little or no information other than emotion driven screeds.  When there is an occaisional link or reference, it leads to more of the same.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 19:06 | 1775656 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

The college/student loan fiasco was a multi-generational delusion. They were propagandized their whole life to go to college or end up in McDonalds. Now they cant even get a job at McDonalds. Half of them didn't go to college anyway in the interviews I read. Are those people better off? Maybe if they learned welding or plumbing but maybe not   since construction is collapsed and most manufacturing is disappearing.

So they have no income to speak of. Only way they are buying things on credit is if mom is giving them her card. They probably don't have a bank account and if they do there is not enough in it for the bank to make a profit (banks claim so anyway). They would be doing more damage if they all OPENED an account with Chase and put $10 in it and then went up to the teller window and withdrew or deposited a dollar every day. They don't get unemployment checks because they never had a job.  Camping out in a park in NY is not a hassle? Crap, I'm stressed out just taking the train and the subway back and forth there. As a teenager, I slept in a doorway near there a couple times when too drunk to drive. It wasn't relaxing.

Us older people with much more life experience and in far greater numbers haven't been able to change government in either direction in the ways most people want. The wealthy have been able to do so pretty effectively regardless of whether Dem or Rep in power. Are you worried these people are going to vote for the Communists or something? They have no hope of significantly changing anything no matter who they vote for.

So what they should do? Beats me. Protestors job is to protest instead of sitting on mom's couch getting drunk and complaining to their friends which is what I do. Maybe something will change, maybe not but the odds of change improve slightly from them doing something.

 

 

 

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:15 | 1775961 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"A government that's powerful enough to provide everything you want is powerful enough to TAKE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE!"

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 05:06 | 1776554 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

When you don't have anything, this is not much of a concern. That's what the right wing keeps forgetting. Eventually there is a revolt.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:04 | 1776755 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

I take very serious offense and objection to your self-definition / assertion of anger being directed as ENVY.  It is not Envy.  It may be Frustration, Contempt, Disgust, Alarm, Shock, and any other words that would describe the surprise at the level of inequality / callousness / indifference / self-agrandrizement being perpetrated.  By claiming it's envy derived, you and others then arrogantly dismiss the objections.  I can only hope one day you are on the other side of this equation so you can understand where the anger comes from.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 01:09 | 1778349 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I haven't heard anything that cogent out of them.  It's more like envy-driven anger about how much money people make in the stock market while the economy languishes.

The ECONOMY? ECONOMY? If you think that the stockmarket is the economy, you have as little competence at your disposal, as those you claim have no comptetence. Economy == shit, no matter what mood the bots are in at the second of the day.

And anyways.... envy? Yeah, i agree it's the primary tool to divide and conquer...... regadless of if your target ideology is libertarians, liberals, republicans, or ZHers.... so what?

Do you really think you won't get that bullshit, even without the MSM reinforcing it? You got CENTURIES of indoctrication - at least some will fail for it, even without encouragent - of course, thats not to say that there is a lack of encouragement, what's with all the MSM and inet-psyops "encouragement" all over the place.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:51 | 1775258 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force.

Art of War

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:58 | 1775282 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

What we are talking about here is renegotiating the social contract.  Determining who gets what.

Marxists, socialists, communists will lose this negotiation unless they can instill some backbone in the proletariat to support their collective cause.  We've seen it before.  We know what comes next.

The winners in all of this will be those of the pioneering spirit, who will move on in a libertarian way.

Waiting for mana from heaven may be hard on the stomach.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:03 | 1776757 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

And the reason we formed communities in the first placeis because many of you "libertarians" would have died if it wasn't for the ocassional resourceful individual who could actually procure food / make things / service his / her needs.  The rest have always been hanger ons.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:37 | 1776949 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

libertarian = resourceful individual

Hanger On = collectivist

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 13:31 | 1777164 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

My point is most people fail at being Libertarian per your own definition.  So you'd rather see a lot of people die than to find an alternate method for trying to produce enough, without it being taken out of your pocket.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:23 | 1775545 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

What the hell are you talking about?  Here we are, suffering huge unemployment, an ongoing recession, and you want to quibble about what book the soldier next to you has read?  We're doomed.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:31 | 1775567 oldman
oldman's picture

OK, Bucko

You have a free pass. Just stay out of the way, please.     om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:07 | 1775910 Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

what do you know about Karl Marx, marxism or communism for that matter ?

there is Communism right now in China, but they are still way more Capitalist

than what Ben Bernanke and the US Federal Reserve are doing to the American economy.

In Germany there is a word for People like Ben:  Nationalistischer Sozialist ( Nazi )

or Nationalistic Socialist.

wr;)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:26 | 1776228 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Well, I know that communists killed about 100 million people in the 20th century, and that it is the most ruthless and criminal form of government ever invented by man.

China isn't more capitalist than us-- that's absurd, as we're all about to find out when their absurd system starts to break down. But I definitely agree that the US financial system is centrally-planned and has been since 1913. Which was when capitalism was dealt a staggering blow on these shores.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:13 | 1775079 Doubleguns
Doubleguns's picture

The solution is GOOOH at goooh.com

The people taking back Washington seems to be getting closer every day.

 

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:36 | 1776799 11b40
11b40's picture

This is the first time I had heard of Get Out Of Our House.  Thanks.  Want to learn more?  Here is a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSCLQd_hkzIring

I have also been looking into America Votes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSCLQd_hkzI

These kinds of new alternatives to the existing parties are encouraging.  Like the OWS movement, they are not yet fully formed, but at least the numbers of people disgusted with the current leadership choices are increasingly coming together to actually do something.  Fight Club....bring it on.  Our current 2-party system is deeply corrupt and no longer working for the vast majority of citizens.  We MUST find new ways to clean the sewer.

 

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:41 | 1774916 drivenZ
drivenZ's picture

"Despite the fact that the events above happened over 80 years ago, it’s plain to see that the modus operandi of Wall Street writ large has changed little"

"Major changes are coming, many of which would have seemed unimaginable only a few years ago"

 

Major changes are coming? your opening line and History beg to differ. The "can" can be kicked longer than most people can sustain. It's the reason why most people buying gold now or in the last few months in the anticipation of having it during armageddon and hyperinflation will probably fail. They may be proven right eventually but few will have the gumption or the lifespan to see it.     

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 18:41 | 1775593 oldman
oldman's picture

driven,

"-----anticipation of having it during armageddon and hyperinflation----"

And major changes are here-----or maybe you are too young to have noticed-----this uprising is real and it comes from a deep-seated need---that of survival.

The machine is dead. All we are fighting for now is how to survive this armageddon-----and we will survive.

I´ve waited a long lifetime for the proper reasons for change and this is that time. I can´t be concerned about how it works out---change is neccessary for survival of this species and many others that it affects. If you want to help---welcome aboard, if you don´t, please just keep up your outsider comments because they may keep us on line for change. We welcome diversity of opinion     om

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:35 | 1776191 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

@ drivenZ

Whether or not I see Armageddon or hyperinflation, well I cannot say.  But, even if nothing bad happens, my kid will get my gold.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:37 | 1774928 Peter K
Peter K's picture

Yawn.  The real force for change is when the Tea Parties take over the Republican Party and bring the country back to it's founding principles. Besides, they clean up after themselves :)

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 15:47 | 1774978 chunga
chunga's picture

Is that you Ann Coulter?

 

NYC protesters take park cleanup on themselves

$nip>

"NEW YORK (AP) — Wall Street protesters scrubbed, mopped and picked up garbage at the corporate-owned park they have been occupying in an attempt to stave off a scheduled cleanup Friday that demonstrators suspect is a pretext to evict them."

$nip>

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 16:28 | 1775138 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Huh. Funny how they showed no interest in cleaning up until Daddy threatened to throw them out. And what a squalid mess they made!

On the other hand, Tea Partiers don't wait to be told to clean up after themselves, and don't make such a big mess in the first place.

It's the difference between infants, and grown ups.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 17:36 | 1775419 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

I guess knowing you can go back home and cash your government handout Social Security check, maybe a pension check,  and run up some Medicare bills makes you calmer then going home and looking at the student loan bill you'll never be able to pay off working intermittently part time for minimum wage

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 21:19 | 1775971 Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

Maybe they were infants.  That fact that they did clean up, shows they are at least adolescents now, and growing fast.  Since they appear much more resistant to hijack than the TEA party, it will be interesting to see what happens next.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:29 | 1776231 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Holy shit, are you high? OWS got hijacked by marxists right out of the starting gate. At least the tea party made it 6 months before the republican party tried to hijack it.

Fri, 10/14/2011 - 23:50 | 1776273 chunga
chunga's picture

Looks to me like your ass is hanging out.

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 10:09 | 1776764 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

You ignorant fuck  Stop posting, you don't know anything and you spout like an informed dignitary.  You arrogant prick.

 

The protesters have had a well resaoned organization since the outset. They realized they'd need services so they set up working groups and committes as they assembled.  People took responsibility for making things happen.  You can read about the many working groups here.  Note, you actually have to know stuff to write about stuff.  http://nycga.cc/groups/

Sat, 10/15/2011 - 11:44 | 1776968 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

After you're done insulting those you are trying to influence, do you expect adulation?  Are you going to throw another temper tantrum because you aren't getting your way as easy as you thought?

OWS has already influenced the easy converts.  The rest will take work.

Rather than using 99% as a slogan, it looks like you should settle for 9% with a stutter...

 

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