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Guest Post: “Digital Future”- Just Another Phrase for Keeping Track of the Serfs

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

 “Digital Future”- Just Another Phrase for Keeping Track of the Serfs

Thus one government intervention begets a further government intervention.  Because government has failed in its primary task…politicians ask, in effect, for price and wage fixing; and we are driven toward totalitarian control.

- Henry Hazlitt “What You Should Know About Inflation

Though commenting on the state’s backing of union thuggery, Hazlitt pinpoints one of the essential rules of conduct for public officials.  That is, intervene in private life to appease one wealthy interest group to then create the groundwork for further power grabs with the inevitable disaster which emerges.  Thankfully, blatant usurpation of authority by lawmakers is still frowned upon by many taxpayers.  That’s why, less a case of opportunistic disaster (“you never let a serious crisis go to waste” as lifelong parasite and former ballerina Rahm Emanuel put it), authoritarianism is achieved in small doses.

Can’t be feeding the people too much information on what their money is really being used for, now

At the beginning of April, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper revealed his budget for the fiscal year of 2013.  Contained within the budget, besides the promising feature of axing 12,000 public sector sponges, was the provision where the Royal Mint of Canada is to cease the production of pennies.  The government blames the cost of production for its decision while ignoring the culprit of relentless currency debasement.  As Maple Leaf Metals Exchange founder Chris Horlacher documents:

In the late 1960’s the quarter and dime were ended in the de-facto sense.  Those coins used to be made from 80% or more silver but after the price of silver began to exceed the face value of those coins they were quickly pulled from circulation and replaced by a nickel imposter.  After it became too expensive even to use nickel then the government turned to steel in 1999 in order to continue creating what now amounted to little more than a casino token.

The penny followed a similar trajectory.  It was made from nearly pure copper up until 1996, at which point the government turned to zinc in order to make them.  In only 2 years it could no longer even maintain the zinc penny-standard and has made them out of steel ever since.  Now it’s farewell to even that denomination of currency and for the first time in Canadian history there will no longer be such a thing as 1/100th of a dollar, all transactions will be rounded to the nearest nickel.  Don’t expect that to last very long at this pace.

With the Canadian penny slowly making its way to the dustbin of currency history, the Royal Canadian Mint has its sights set on a new target: tangible, hard money in general.  From the National Post:

Last week, the Mint announced the release of MintChip, a completely digital currency. “Money, as we know it, is fine for today, but tomorrow is a different story,” says an introductory MintChip video. “MintChip is better than cash, since you can use it online.”

MintChip stores value in a physical chip, and transfers money between chips using heavily encrypted “value messages.” The system has no centralized database. “They’re calling it anonymous … their intention is that it’s no more associated with who you are than [traditional] currency,” said Jacqueline Chilton with Glenbrook Partners, a California-based payment consultant.

The trick here is that nothing government does is voluntary.  The forced usage of the Canadian dollar via legal tender laws renders the assertion of “voluntary” laughable.  The Mint claims the chip can be used anonymously but this assurance comes from the institution in cahoots with a central bank that can’t manage a simple metal standard for more than a few decades.  According to the Bank of Canada’s inflation calculator, a basket of goods that cost $100 in 1934 (the year the Bank of Canada was established) costs $1,683.33 today.  That’s a 1,583.33% increase!

Then again, inflation to the benefit of the state and other first receivers of newly printed money was always the objective of the Bank of Canada.  The “lender of last resort” justification was just a euphemism for financing the government’s stranglehold on society.  The banks are guaranteed a liquidity backstop to their risky lending (and subsequent payout of exorbitant executive bonuses) while John Q. Public is squeezed at the gas pump and the grocery store queue.

Central banking has always been about centralized control over what Murray Rothbard referred to as the lifeblood of the economy; the universal medium of exchange known as money.  The real impetus behind the “Mintchip” is not convenience but an insidious desire on the part of the ruling class to assert their dominance over free transactions by forever digitizing their history.  Governments have been waging a war on anonymous business since central banking became the norm.  According to Pace University economist Joseph Salerno, the Federal Reserve has eliminated the issuance of denominations of the paper dollar over $100 since 1945.  As Salerno writes:

This has made large cash transactions extremely inconvenient and has forced the American public to make much greater use than is optimal of electronic-payment methods. Of course, this is precisely the intent of the US government. The purpose of its ongoing breach of long-established laws regarding financial privacy is to make it easier to monitor the economic affairs and abrogate the financial privacy of its citizens, ostensibly to secure their safety from Colombian drug lords, Al Qaeda operatives, and tax cheats and other nefarious white-collar criminals.

Privacy has been sacrificed to ensure fewer transactions go undocumented.  As long as large scale purchases and payments are recorded, the goons at the IRS and tax collection agencies around the world are better able to legally plunder more wealth from the citizenry.  Politicians remain unwilling to let the party come to an end despite economic recession decreasing the amount of tax revenue flowing into their coffers.  Spending money that isn’t theirs is all they know.  Instead of living within their means, they opt for more thievery to keep buying votes.  While the Eurozone crashes and burns due to unsustainable welfare states and lawmakers addicted to profligacy of public funds, both Spain and Italy have put a limit on large cash transactions.  Tax evaders, looking for nothing more than to alleviate the pain of the tax enforcer’s whip, have become the enemy for not ponying up to satisfy the various highway gangs at the local, state, and federal levels of government.

The introduction of the “Mintchip” is really just another extension of the state’s effort to wield supremacy over private affairs.  It is creeping socialism under the guise of efficiency.  But, as anyone familiar with the nature of state understands, government efficiency is an illusion.  As anonymity in free transactions goes, so goes another barrier on further centralized planning.

Lew Rockwell’s rule of thumb follows that anything the government or its apologists in the media claim must be assumed to be an outright lie.  The development of the “Mintchip” for “convenience” is no different.

If the state wanted to save Canadians money, it would relinquish its control over the monetary sphere and put an immediate end to perpetual inflation.  Instead, keeping track of the serfs is the real name of the game.


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Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:00 | 2338698 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

Economics in One Lesson, Muppetz!

This Von Mises addition to ZH is not going mesh well with the re-Feducation.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:05 | 2338722 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

This will result in the following. An alternative currency for black markets. Disabling the chips for use within the black markets. The BOC is just strengthening underground black markets. Maybe that is their goal?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:08 | 2338734 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Heavily encrypted my ass.....someone will have the key.  They will figure out a way to steal the money off of your mintchip while you are standing on the sidewalk.  I can't believe people think this stuff is the way to go.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:27 | 2338804 Koffieshop
Koffieshop's picture

If someone hacks it, it would just be the cherry on top, but this will fail anyway.
We had something like this pitched to us some time ago here in NL (was called Chipknip). It failed because nobody was using it except in cases where they were forced to use it (like parking garages).

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:36 | 2338839 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

First Sweden, now Canada..... it's not looking good humans. 

Strangely, and this is of course prime predictive programming, the amount of money left on your re-pay mobile phone has always been called currency in India. You always "top-up" your currency.

So now the whole mobile generatiion knows they always have currency in their phone.

Embracing our slavery, sub-humanitchez!

Transhumanism, full bore.



Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:28 | 2338941 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

this remiinds me of bitcoin. i don't know from security but those of you more learned than me might find this interesting. if they want digital currency we could potentially give it to them, but lets not let them hold the wheel this time...


its really like everything. competition (usually) creates an environment where the best methods, monopolies breed stagnation. we can't let any one party control everything, be it the Fed or a private bank....  D'oh! /facepalm/


there is only one way that this ends, and that is by putting our energy next to the intent to create motion.



check out the basic framework.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 18:52 | 2339753 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Got gold?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:11 | 2339996 downrodeo
downrodeo's picture

of course... diversification bitchez

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:36 | 2340199 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Vietnam nationalizes all gold production & tries to stop all use of gold as currency - while last year gold as currency was #1!/silverguru22/status/190537797826904064 (David Morgan)

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:07 | 2338951 XitSam
XitSam's picture

It will be cracked in 3 days if not 3 hours. At most, 3 weeks. Criminals and researchers will want to break this one.  Then the government will restrict free speech to "protect" the money. Then the government will need to track all transactions to "ensure" no one takes advantage. Then the IRS, FBI, Secret Service and Homeland Security Investigations will want access to certain transactions to investigate drug dealers (all levels), then access to all transactions to data mine for crimes contrary to Economic Justice. Of course this is wild speculation on my part, this would never happen in America.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:54 | 2339373 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Then the health police will see you ate a donut and drank a Mountain Dew this morning and had way more than your fair share of sugar.  And its bad for you too, which will cost the state money.  Off to the re-education camp for you!!

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 03:09 | 2340873 FlyPaper
FlyPaper's picture

ORI - Yes, first Sweden.  In 1998 a Kronor was about $.24 cents.  Today its about 13.5 cents.  1/100th of 13.5 cents is so small that it cannot be represented by a fiat coin (which was a tiny plug of aluminum about the size of a pencil eraser).   

Even at 24 cents, a 1/100th coin is of virtually no value.   

The point: it makes perfect sense to eliminate a coin like this.  

Now the Canadians, whose penny is worth about 6x the Swedish "penny" find that the penny is too small to bother with.  I actually agree.  We have "Fiated" our currency to the point where coinage is basically valueless in both Canada and the US.  I'd rather not receive pennies in change.  But I'm also not a business; and pennies do, in fact, add up.





Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:41 | 2339316 BarberKen19
BarberKen19's picture

my neighbor's mom makes $82 hourly on the computer. She has been out of a job for ten months but last month her pay check was $14998 just working on the computer for a few hours. Read more on this web site and click Home .....  WWW.LAZYCASH.COM

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:57 | 2339383 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

you mean

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:02 | 2339399 Walter E Kurtz
Walter E Kurtz's picture

Web cam whore?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:13 | 2340000 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

stop spamming scum bag

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:12 | 2338745 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:25 | 2338799 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Id fight Gandhi

Read some Stross or Vinges Rainbows End.

Either way Digital money is the future, get used to it.

Remember the credit card commercial with the guy, kind of a hipster dipshit, wandering through the grocery and just waving his hand in the air as he walks out? Purchase made, no muss no fuss. That set the tone.

I have no real issue with this. The Genpop will be happy and feel safe.

The underbelly will have ways around it and ways to capitalize from it. Big deal.

For those bitching about the loss of privacy, that's inherent with the rise of technology.

What you should fear is  You Have Got To Believe Me software and marketing. Also the potential for technological infection from Memes which literally control your mind.

You want to be safe from the future, give up all your technology and live in the wilderness never coming in contact with anyone.

The next fifty years will scare the shit out of people.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:41 | 2338855 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Well as long as money isn't real at all, perfectly fine with digital so long as I don't have to earn it, pay taxes on it or bills. Just spend.

Saving and earning is for chumps. Just consume

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:49 | 2338876 Crisismode
Crisismode's picture

The next FIVE years scare the shit out of me.



Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:11 | 2338968 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


That's only social shit. Riots and so forth.

Keep your head down, stay away from trouble areas and it will be fine.

It's the nasty promise of technology that scares me.

Once a device or disease is created it needs to be tested.

Imagine some of this shit slipping out like LSD did, or like AIDS.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:33 | 2339060 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Indeed, lab-on-a-chip & customized diseases evolved by even a back-corner "farmer" can become the new weapon du-jour. It's actually quite funny how many tin-foilers are all about the RFID chips not realizing that DNA-chips will read your serial number right out of you - and you can't remove it. The chip+hand unit are portable of course, but your DNA is YOUR DNA.

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 11:40 | 2341801 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

It's actually quite funny how many tin-foilers are all about the RFID chips

Uhh, are you getting that notion from stats at or what?

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 00:20 | 2343275 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

well, literally, microwaving RFID chips with or without tinfoil is being suggested to disable them so... given that almost no one else is mentioning the bio-chips I figured we're down under 0.01 % for alternatives.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 19:48 | 2339942 fasTTcar
fasTTcar's picture

The last five scared the shit out of me.

That is why I became a bullion dealer.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:58 | 2338909 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I've read Neuromancer, my friend reading over my shoulder's read Rainbow's End too. Doesn't matter.

Digital currency can't be "enforced". You'd need more energy & force to stop barter than is worth the effort. Best to stick to "anonymous" cash units (some digital, not all) to give the illusion of choice. What matters most isn't tracking but inflation. Tracking's for cops. Cops don't run banks. INFLATION is for raping the entire planet. THAT is for banks.

Who's in charge? Banks, not cops, remember?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:08 | 2338953 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Please, how many fucking people barter now?

More people pay with food stamps than barter. More people pay dope dealers with food stamps than barter with them.

Barter as a trend will only exist on a micro level. There just are not enough people making or growing or creating goods to allow it to v be viable.

Yes there will always be a black market, but it isn't mainstream now is it.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:32 | 2339055 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Lots of people barter now - I do - and more will. It's a natural consequence to prices being out of whack and/or people actually having goods worth trading. How many people use pawn-shops and flea-markets? Lots. More than you can count. Those same people will happily barter. Check out flea markets, craig's list and kijiji and you'll see barter has no restrictions even culturally much less legally.

The black market will only grow as tyranny does. That's how black markets work. People flat out do not submit and that's before considering the system itself of enforcement collapsing - which it has in history many times before, one of which worth noting is the USSR.

By the way, you can't pay dope dealers in EBT card food stamps which is why they were made. Instead now you can use the EBT to buy goods and barter them to dealers. Which is precisely what happens.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:13 | 2339211 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Let's see...

EBT sponge needs dope.  Dealer needs gas for his sweet ride.

So Sponge buys food, which he trades for liquor, which he trades for dope, which Dealer trades for gasoline.

The Circle of Life, Simba!

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 11:45 | 2341819 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

We need a new Department of the Federal Government to keep this shit in check!  The Department of Anti-Barter.</sarc>

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:18 | 2340010 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Not like the old days. I remember when you could see "rock stars" buying a piece of 5 cent candy with a one dollar food samp bill. Then they would go back through another line and buy another untill they had enough for a hit at the pipe.


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:13 | 2339201 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I barter ALL. THE. TIME.

Barter is the future Gully, don't fight it.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:13 | 2338976 XitSam
XitSam's picture

"Digital currency can't be "enforced". You'd need more energy & force to stop barter than is worth the effort."

Oh, sure it can be enforced. This will be the justification for a much bigger police force and fewer rights for the citizens.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:29 | 2339040 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I'll believe it when I see it. No one can stop me from secretly meeting & using barter, be it coins or toasters, and that's what I mean by enforcement. There's not enough man-power to watch every person and every item to ensure there's no barter deals, nor can every message be decrypted or even intercepted that makes meetings for such arrangements. That's all it takes to beat a digital currency "forced" on the people. The most that can be accomplished is that the government demands its use for taxation.

Unless you devote more than 50% of the population to policing - which is financially unsustainable - you can't even begin to enforce a digital currency using actual force.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:01 | 2339164 XitSam
XitSam's picture

"Why this citizen never buys a toaster, or food, or tires, never eats out, never buy clothes. Looks like we detected a barterer, guys. Send out IRS SWAT team B-43 and deal with this tax evader harshly. These criminals are destroying the country by avoiding taxes. Caught this one by data mining, so we don't even need to give a cut of the confiscated gold and silver to a neighbor."

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:28 | 2340039 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You'd never know there is such a citizen. Thanks to barter there's no record to trace to even begin to search.

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 11:51 | 2341849 MayIMommaDogFac...
MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

He's arguing that the ABSENCE of such information would be notable from the perspective of a data-mining-pattern-recognition algo...

The algos can't do the actual enforcement, but certain technologies are advancing in a way that suggests they won't need actual humans to do the enforcement either...

We live in very interesting times.

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 01:49 | 2343340 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I'm suggesting people evading capture will continue to evade capture. Sure, one or two here & there will be caught but those choosing a lifestyle of freedom, evading a police-state, will find it.

We're the ones inventing the tools, not the government. They can only steal, copy or buy stuff from us, including surveillance technologies.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:19 | 2340018 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

We allready got over 50 % of the population not paying taxes. It seems to be working just fine.....

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:27 | 2340035 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

50%+ paying taxes & working as cops = I lose

50% not paying taxes & not being cops = I win

sorry if I wasn't clear.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:28 | 2338812 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Long on (and long live) Hackers!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:01 | 2338707 Arnold Ziffel
Arnold Ziffel's picture

Hazlett's book, “What You Should Know About Inflation“ is a must read.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:31 | 2338822 Manthong
Manthong's picture

“inflation to the benefit of the state and other first receivers of newly printed money was always the objective of the Bank of Canada.”

Good thing it’s not like that in the states.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:30 | 2339499 SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

LOL! thanks for the giggle.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:01 | 2338709 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

The goons are terrified not knowing how much more money(not theirs) is out there they could get their dirty little fingers on it! pathetic!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:03 | 2338711 morning_glory
morning_glory's picture

Fuck You Bern.... Say what?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:03 | 2338713 exiledbear
exiledbear's picture

Bitcoin. That's all I gotta say.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:54 | 2338890 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

MintChip is obviously a ploy by the bankstas to counter Bitcoin.

Imagine the bad things about paper and the weaknesses of Bitcoin put together and you have MintChip. Sounds like instant failure.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:55 | 2338903 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Ya, for sure.

BitCoin is a nice concept but it has no backing. The people mining bitcoins aren't able / willing to back it with something tangible. I could just use pgp / gpg sigs on my own vouchers for gold, car or toasters and other such things in my possession. That would at least have intrinsic value to what is related.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:45 | 2339105 CH1
CH1's picture

Dude, BC isn't my ideal, but it works!

That's enough for now.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:49 | 2339120 hazek
hazek's picture

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but nothing backs gold either.

It's worth comes from it's utility and same goes for Bitcoin. Unless you know something I don't, there is no cheaper way to send money instantly across the world with super low costs and without the need to give up all your personal information, name, address, birth date, even fking dogs name before you're payment is processed AND to top it off it's a new currency that has a built in practically impossible to reverse scarcity.

Just like gold through it's properties attained value, so do bitcoins. Econ 101.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:04 | 2339170 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

The value of gold comes from the thousands of hours and it takes to survey, find, mine and refine the metal. Having a store of that labour combined with its rarity gives it intrinsic value. Obviously you never took Econ 101...

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:16 | 2339217 hazek
hazek's picture

Are you saying that what you just described aren't the properties of gold? (naturally a rhetorical question)


Btw it takes thousands of hours, years even in some cases, to burn electricity which costs money (labor) on a computer you had to spend money(labor) to buy while it's connected to the internet which also costs money(labor), trying to solve a mathematical puzzle in order to be able to receive new bitcoins as a reward for fiding a solution. Having a store of that labor combined with its rarity and other valuable properties gives it intrinsic value. Obviously you never took Econ 101...

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:27 | 2339245 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

I am aware of this, having both a mathematical and IT background I was actually considering setting up a few GPU based bitcoin miners but alas it is not real, it exists as 1's and 0's on a computer pier to pier network. All one has do to is take away electricity and/or the internet (solar flare, war, government clamp down) and bitcoins become useless and without value.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:52 | 2339329 hazek
hazek's picture

So does the whole internet industry. If a doomsday scenario is the only thing that destroys Bitcoin, I'm fine with taking that risk for holding part of my wealth denominated in bitcoins.


Btw if you were aware of the labor it took to get new bitcoins, why then would you make a post telling me I'm clueless about econ 101 and spread misinformation about Bitcoin? Are you trolling me?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 19:08 | 2339827 corxi
corxi's picture

I see exactly your point, and I agree with you. The concept of BC is sound. But it's not tangible, I can't hold a bitcoin in my hand (unless you define bitcoin a usb pendrive, I don't). Second, the value stored in every mined bitcoin by made by a GPU, not a human, thus, the value stored in a bitcoin, is nowhere near as valuable. Third, if cash is to disappear (mintchip) in time, describe me jst how you are going to convert your BCs in spendable bucks (to buy everything else BC can't buy, most things...). Never mind solar flares, internet and electricity down and all that....for the above reasons, regrettably, I'm out of BC and into PMs....comments plz....

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 19:20 | 2339860 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

yes you can hold a physical bitcoin in your hand.


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:26 | 2340030 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I'm expecting the doomsday scenario, loss of power, loss of network, loss of secure transmission, loss of privacy in large regions, black markets everywhere.

For that I'd need barter, food in cans, gold & silver coin.

That's what I'm preparing for. Bitcoins have no value to me in this future and I see no other.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:24 | 2340027 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I could just as easily pgp-sign a voucher for gold, my own gold, traded on credit from me to get my gold upon return of the receipt.

That would be more secure & more value than bitcoins.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:22 | 2340024 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Sorry to burst your bubble but all physical commodities have intrinsic value. They have chemical & nuclear properties, electrical & mechanical properties and life depends on most of them, at least modern life now.

Bitcoins have no intrinsic value as I can't make alpha-radiation shielding from it like I can gold, or teeth fillings as I can gold, or coins as I can gold so I can hold my money secure from computer outages or network outages or hackers and set booby-traps for it.

Bitcoin does none of these things.

Scarcity does not induce value: scarcity can multiply existing value of a per-unit basis which gold has & bitcoin does NOT. Gold is backed by physics for all it can do. Bitcoin does nothing.

ECON 101 for YOU, good sir.

I don't need a "cheap way to send money around the world" I need a secure money that stays with me while I want it with me and doesn't magically drop 80% like bitcoin can vs fiat dollars which I also don't want.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:54 | 2340158 hazek
hazek's picture

The funny thing about your little rant here is that it's completely irrelevant because guess what, the market disagrees with you and currently values bitcoins and their properties and utility at around 5 bucks a pop. Maybe to you their properties are useless and maybe you don't see their utility but the market does which is all that is ultimately relevant.

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 20:07 | 2345869 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

funny thing is the market fully agrees with me because bitcoin had been valued at 30 a btc and has dropped sharply since then. If you had never tried btc <-> paper conversions & stuck with intrinsic goods of value, this problem would never have materialized.

$5 is a robbery - unless the peak price ever reached was $6. It isn't.

The market for btc is simple: make an exchange, get people to put btc into it, then leave and cash out all the btc SOMEONE ELSE owns (mf global style) at a higher price.

No thank you

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:06 | 2339417 ArmchairRevolut...
ArmchairRevolutionary's picture

This is exactly what I do not like about it. It is a form of ponzi. BitCoin would be awesome if cash were used to buy a wide range of commodities futures to back the BitCoin and the BitCoin value was in fact directly related to the futures. Then you would have a real store of value.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:05 | 2338715 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Ain't no chips in GOLD.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:09 | 2338739 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Not yet, but a good idea!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:13 | 2338750 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Gold is an element and it has a pretty low melting that's not gonna happen.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:54 | 2338898 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I bet you could fashion a VLSI optical chip into a gold bar.

I bet you could even dope circuit-traces of gold into a gold bar & do something with it.

Not that I'd suggest it since if it wasn't something cool, or if it was something to track me, I'd say "smelting time"

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 06:27 | 2340992 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Au is quite ductile, one good smack with a hammer would do the same damage as smelting.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:11 | 2338746 seek
seek's picture


I am sure there's going to be a market for home remelting kits in the future.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:22 | 2338784 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

What you said.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:28 | 2338811 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Golds value rises as the dollars drops.

Once digital currency is the norm, Gold becomes near worthless. Except as jewelry.

Unless you intend to use your remelting kit, smelting I think, and become a goldsmith.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:41 | 2338854 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture


gold is a store of value. not a medium of exchange

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:53 | 2338888 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

a store of value makes a great medium of exchange. A poor store of value only makes a viable (not good) medium of exchange while people are too dumb to figure out it's not a store of value.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:54 | 2338894 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Gold is only a store of value if two people agree on it.

Just like weed, milk, Apples, fish and Tide are valuable between two people of similar mindset.

You ignored what I said about Gold increasing in value because the dollar is losing value.

Things don't retain value once the society no longer needs them.

Neal Stephenson used the Cowry shell example in his Baroque trilogy.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:03 | 2339171 NotAMathWhiz
NotAMathWhiz's picture

I ignored what you said because you're shouting at me

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:11 | 2339199 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

But unlike weed, milk, apples, fish and tide gold is an element on the periodic table and unfirom in weight, quality and consistancy. Gold and silver have been honest money since the daw of civilization and as currency they have never collapsed or inflated or devalued at the hest of greedy bankers.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:49 | 2339354 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

You sure Spend a lot of time formulating bullshit words in the form of sentences no one but yourself gives a flying fuck about.
Go away.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:06 | 2339416 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Except as with paper money, they can create infinite amounts of digital money.  More infinite amounts of money because they can create it faster than the printing press can create a paper dollar.   In that environment, ANYTHING BUT digital money will hold value.  Toilet paper will be worth more than digital money.  You can bet the farm TPTB will never EVER run out of digital dollars.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:18 | 2340014 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

You find me a world that doesn't need gold, fish, apples, fertile dirt or clean water.

Still looking?

Go on, you can do it. This nonsense world that needs digits more than gold, food & land doesn't exist and won't exist.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 22:45 | 2340424 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

"in 2011 gold was more widely used than any other currency in Vietnam. The country owns more gold per capita than either India or China; the amount of privately held gold is expected to total 300-500 tonnes."!/silverguru22/status/190537797826904064

"gold is a store of value. not a medium of exchange" - Spitzer

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:43 | 2338862 Greenhead
Greenhead's picture

GF, why do you say gold becomes worthless.  Seems to me that digits or pennies are the same.  If we create more digits to fund the fedgov prices will rise.  Prices rising means the value of the digits fall.  Are you suggesting there won't be a way to have an idea of what a digit will be worth?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:00 | 2338925 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


"GF, why do you say gold becomes worthless."

Not worthless but not the inflated madness we see today. You can still make jewelry and use in technology.


"Seems to me that digits or pennies are the same."

Canada stopped making pennies, they told retailers to round out.


Digital currency is designed to crush the competition and remove the profit made by flucuating exchange rates. Like the Euro was designed to balance out EU currencies.

You can't have OWG, if you don't have a stable universal currency.

The other thing digital currency allows is the great reset, call it collapse. Everything starts at zero, well whatever the value of digital is as a unit of exchange.

It's all planned out.


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:52 | 2338885 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

That's utter nonsense. As people reject digital currency the gold value will go up as people seek to use it. The only reason gold would go down vs this digital currency is if it secure and has no inflation but we already know it will do none of that. Just look who's issuing the MintChip and give your head a shake before you repeat the nonsense.

Or at least say /sarc or "I'm really MDB in disguise"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:01 | 2338933 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Sure, gold will be replacing digital currency.

Never happen.

The Genpop will gladly accept digital currency.

It takes a generation for no questions to be asked.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:17 | 2340007 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Every fiat currency fails. Gold frequently replaces fiat currencies. Digital is no different. Make it secure & free of inflation and people will love it. It isn't so they won't.

It takes all of 5 minutes for no questions to be asked - if nothing looks out of place. with prices rising sharply & without explanation you get questions. Anger. Screams. Riots. No digital cash.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:50 | 2340245 trentusa
trentusa's picture

oh no MDB wasn't bad enough now he has an imitator. Bad idea bc it isn't funny & nobody liked that original either except the other trolls.

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 01:51 | 2343344 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Every troll needs another troll.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:41 | 2340215 Lux Fiat
Lux Fiat's picture

Home EMP kits?  Paper and PMs not affected by that.  Bitcoins, not so much.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:06 | 2338948 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

In the tungsten, in your gold.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:04 | 2338716 Sutton
Sutton's picture

"And none can buy or sell,except them that have the Mark of the Beast"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:13 | 2338747 donsluck
donsluck's picture

Forcing barter, eventually.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:27 | 2338803 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

A red Shield and bar code tattooed on your hand....

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:29 | 2338816 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Small chip under the skin.

More likely your clothing will be wearable pc carrying the chips and codes necessary.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:38 | 2338848 Debugas
Debugas's picture

mark in the body is necessary to tie your bank account to your body so that you can not lend your money to somebody else and also to track your body

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:57 | 2338905 hidingfromhelis
hidingfromhelis's picture

Maybe the large financial institutions can set up a financial shell company where all the digital bits (and title to our bodies) can be traded, exchanged, and securitized.  Record keeping can be done later on an as-needed basis with made up numbers.  Let's call it MintChip Electronic Registration Services (MinCERS), for the sake of argument.  Oh shit...I've been re-hypothecated!

Fri, 04/13/2012 - 06:39 | 2341000 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Gives new meaning to "being liquidated!"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:02 | 2338937 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Not necessary, unless everyone runs around naked.

Chips in your clothes, or your phone.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 20:15 | 2340002 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

yesterday's news. By the time you see it roll out it will be DNA-computing platform & non-compliance will render you dead or ill.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 17:34 | 2338895 CH1
CH1's picture

"And none can buy or sell,except them that have the Mark of the Beast"

Yep. Then we'll see which Christians are real and which are not.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:05 | 2338724 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Revelation 13:17

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:31 | 2338819 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Wrote the book of the seven seals
Who's that writin', John the Revelator Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Well who's that writin', John the Revelator Wrote the book of the seven seals
You know God walked down in the cool of the day And called Adam by his name And he refused to answer 'Cause he was naked and ashamed
Who's that writin', John the Revelator Who's that writin', John the Revelator Who's that writin', John the Revelator Wrote the book of the seven seals
You know Christ had 12 apostles And three he laid away He said, "Watch with me one hour Till I go yonder and pray"
Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Tell me who's that writin', John the Revelator Who's that writin', John the Revelator Wrote the book of the seven seals

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:13 | 2339212 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

I think we broke him, someone call the DHS repair man!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:06 | 2338727 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

There was a Visa outage the Sunday before last for about a half an hour.  You couldnt process a credit card anywhere.  Trust the system?  I don't think so.  We are one Stuxnet type virus away from most people not having a penny to their name.

Oh, its ok, i'll just go to the bank then and withdraw my money.  The banks don't have a drop in the bucket enough money to give people even a small fraction of what they think they have in the bank.

I will use as much cash as I can for as long as I can.  Anonymity BITCHEZ!!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:11 | 2338744 donsluck
donsluck's picture

At my bank, they always ask me what my cash withdrawal is for. "We are required to ask you what this cash is for" is what they say. I say "required by whom?", "our management" they answer, "guns and alcohol" is my response. This is for anything $3,000 or more, well below the legal $10,000 requirement.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:15 | 2338754 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

You should say,"it's for the same thing your management uses cash for.  Hookers and blow."

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:15 | 2339224 Iwanttoknow
Iwanttoknow's picture


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:18 | 2338768 Gringo Viejo
Gringo Viejo's picture

5 star response Don.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:25 | 2338800 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Well my answer would be, "You may be required to ask it, but I'm not required to answer it. Give me my money!"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:13 | 2338985 dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Not yet anyway.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:31 | 2338823 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I thought it was 5k now not 10k.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:56 | 2338901 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

10k is mandatory reporting but the bank employees are *encouraged* to report anything suspicious at ANY amount. But they wont tell you this because its AGAINST THE LAW for them to do so...

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:00 | 2338923 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

There you go thinking, just obey your chip. 

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:05 | 2338943 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

my credit union asks at 1000 dollars

for cash deposits, they want a money trail, like a reciept that they photocopy

and thats why i keep 75 bucks in that account

when they started asking, i stopped depositing

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:22 | 2339259 Silver Dreamer
Silver Dreamer's picture

My account is used only because my employer "requires" direct deposit.  As soon as the check is deposited however, it is immediately drawn down to under $100.  The bank doesn't make much from my deposit, and that's just the way I want it to be!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:41 | 2340219 uno2well
uno2well's picture

You sir deserve a +1! And another +1 for the Hookers and Blow comment!

I love stirring the pot when people try to stick their nose in my business. I do something similar whenever some religious douche-bags knock on my door trying to save my soul... I answer the door naked and ask them if they'd like to come in.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:22 | 2338788 seek
seek's picture

I use cash almost exclusively for in-person purchases. I've run into a new wrinkle, however -- it's gotten to the point at some establishments where the cashier needs a manager's override to process anything larger than a $20, and I've actually had this happen when buying something just over $50 and paying with just 3 $20s.

Even more amusing was when I was paying a $1 airport parking fee with a $5 and the cashier held the bill up to to the lights to look for the stripe -- seriously, for a five? Must be hard times if the counterfeiters and making $5 bills.

It's very strange to have paying in cash actually slow a transaction.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:43 | 2338861 WillyGroper
WillyGroper's picture



Thu, 04/12/2012 - 16:25 | 2339266 Silver Dreamer
Silver Dreamer's picture

That's another problem for sure.  Paying in 100 dollar bills definitely causes problems.  I've been held up and delayed for it too many times, so now I simply demand all of my cash withdraws in 20 dollar bills or smaller.  Man, that pisses off the bank, but they (so far) haven't said no.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 18:27 | 2339682 spdrdr
spdrdr's picture

Where on earth do you get to pay an airport parking fee of $1???  Harare International?

I haven't had a parking fee of less than $15, just swinging by to pick someone up.  To actually park for a 24 hour day is $45+.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:25 | 2338798 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

And, Bitchez, once they dump paper and coins, we use The Peoples' Money: Silver!

Even barter. Anything to screw up their Adolf Hitler system.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:32 | 2338827 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I think Hitler still used silver currency.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:51 | 2338883 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Is nazi gold any cheaper in exchange if buying bullion

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:11 | 2338743 Id fight Gandhi
Id fight Gandhi's picture

Economy is becoming one big video game.

Funny how these new video games insist on REAL money to purchase fake money to play their games.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:14 | 2338753 TheGardener
TheGardener's picture

Even delivered from Canada on an icy slippery slope the MintChip is as much a threat as Sweden`s planned ban of
cash. No more free exchange for the people, so let there be sanctions and bombings..., no , but it is actually against us ! Coming to a formerly free western society next to you !

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:24 | 2338795 The Swedish Chef
The Swedish Chef's picture

There is no cah ban planned in Sweden! Stop spreading lies. One stupid article and know where planning a cash ban? Think more, believe less.



Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:23 | 2339019 CH1
CH1's picture

Then how about telling us what is right?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:45 | 2339106 Goldilocks
Goldilocks's picture

Courtesy of johnQpublic...
Homer Simpson - Everyone in this audience is a Giant Sucker! (0:19)

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:15 | 2338757 vegas
vegas's picture

WTF, you gotta be kidding. Canucks, you really think anybody is going to trust your "anonymity"? Hey, I got land in Florida to sell too - want some? Thanks, but I'll use Liberty Reserve or e-dinar or something else in the realm of the real privacy and anonymity universe - outside you fucking snoops who think my business is your business. May you rot in hell.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:17 | 2338761 Negro Primero
Negro Primero's picture

"Why eliminating cash may be the secret to prosperity"

(Please, don't laugh...)

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:34 | 2338834 Byte Me
Byte Me's picture

I didn't laugh..

I nearly wept..

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:18 | 2338770 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Every fucking thing the gubbermint does has a gun behind it.

Long on Fascism!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:19 | 2338772 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

I can't wait to hack that shit!

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:37 | 2338841 pods
pods's picture

You, half of Eastern Europe and a half a billion Chinamen!


Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:21 | 2338777 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

"Minister, we're outta money right now."

"That's all right, lackey. We're on The Chip (R). Cut off the switch."

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:23 | 2338781 Debugas
Debugas's picture

money is just a contract between an individual and the society. what is the carrier (be it tangible paper contract, banknote or intangible electronic record) of money is not that important. The important thing is just how many society members (many enough) accept this contract as payment for their work. With high unemployment this chips have a chance to do well

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:27 | 2339033 CH1
CH1's picture

money is just a contract between an individual and the society.

LOL... this is not sarcasm?

Contracts must be entered into voluntarily and the state does not do "voluntarily."

I don't want to play their way; will they leave me alone?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:48 | 2339115 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Anything of value is money to me. I don't need society's approval, only my own judgement that I'm trading value item x for value item y.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:22 | 2338782 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

So when does Project Mayhem start to wipe out this beast?

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:47 | 2339109 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

At this rate it would have to be Anonymous or Occupy Wall Street but it's not ready.

Supposedly there is a "Project Mayhem" by that name for Anonymous... we'll see.

I think it will be more like "project civil war"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:27 | 2338805 Rylie
Rylie's picture

Alex Jones called this a long time ago. he said there would be a chip that everyone has to transfer money. I think he termed it "Creds"

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:59 | 2338917 12ToothAssassin
12ToothAssassin's picture

A LOT of people beat him to it, including a virtual TV character named Max Headroom.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:27 | 2338809 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

Silver coins will be the new black market means of exchange; bet on it

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:45 | 2338865 penexpers
penexpers's picture

I agree.

What the fuck are you going to do in a barter economy with bar of gold are even a gold eagle?

Smaller denominated silver coins 4 life, bitchez.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:39 | 2339085 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

indeed. I suggest silver dollars, quarters, dimes, 1/10th ounce gold coins & I'd recommend having some of the larger things like 1 kg silver or 1 oz gold for larger trades (car, tools, etc)

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 21:54 | 2340263 uno2well
uno2well's picture

A few years ago I used a silver maple leaf to pay for drinks and dinner at my local pub. The owner had absolutely no problem with me using it and said I could trade him more if I liked. (I only wanted to see if I could - I'll keep using cash until I no longer can)

I guess you could say that was a form of barter too... I'm pretty damn sure my dinner receipt was "lost" and unreported to rev-can.

Sat, 04/14/2012 - 16:11 | 2345622 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture


On youtube drutter said last year he even paid rent in silver.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 14:32 | 2338820 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

I'll throw out a billion dollar idea.  The eBarter website.  I'd do it myself but American Idol is on tonight.

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:33 | 2339058 CH1
CH1's picture

Ran across one the other day:

Thu, 04/12/2012 - 15:36 | 2339072 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

How much is a BARTERCOIN worth?

One BARTERCOIN is pegged to the price of one gram of silver.


Current Market Price in U.S. Dollars: 1 BARTERCOIN = 1.04 USD


Not sure if I'd use it as I prefer the silver itself BUT... given that this & goldmoney exist for gold & silver transactions electronically I think that will kick bitcoin & mintchip to the curb.

Europac (Schiff) also now has (not for Americans) a gold-backed credit card so your balance is always in weight of gold valued for the market-value (& a fee deduction of course) so you can load-up & spend as per your timing desires with gold spot's pricing changes.

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