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Guest Post: America’s Wealth-Defined Society

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Ben Tanosborn

America’s Wealth-Defined Society

Many of us wonder whether the Occupy Wall Street movement will continue to grow and establish roots, to offer some hope for change… or whether it will be stopped and smothered… not by the Fat-Cats represented in that odious One Percent, but by the Squires, that Nineteen Percent of enforcers, or bystanders, of predatory capitalism that has taken over America; what is now Corporate America.  The Squires are the only middle-class left in the United States today, even if there are many others who illusorily think of themselves as middle-class, not wanting to be included in a bottom 80 percent, the place where they belong if only they would wake up to reality, set aside their pride.

For almost three generations most anyone in America considered themselves to be part of that mythical middle-class.  Lower class was a term seldom mentioned; only people down on their luck and one-third or more of blacks and browns living in virtual poverty, belonged to that class swept under the rug.  Be that as it may, the majority of Americans by most any standard were affluent enough not to worry about the many wealth rungs in the socio-economic ladder, or where they stood in it.

However, political economics during the past three decades have helped create greater inequality, much greater wealth differences between lower and higher rungs.  And, what may be even worse, it also helped erase the upward economic mobility it once existed in the lower rungs, where 80 percent of the nation’s population resides.  Such mobility has completely disappeared.  Ronald Reagan made greed a top virtue for Americans, and much of the population was ready to live by that creed.  But as it turned out, only a small percentage was successful at it – and not entrepreneurially but predatorily – most others still smarting from a real estate bubble, as acquisition of a home mortgage was dabbed part of the American dream… what should have been called the American nightmare.

The Occupy Wall Street movement, whether by art or by design, has been careful not to make their common cause one of a struggle between classes, and that has been, at least initially, a wise thing.  Having said that, however, it would be wise and survivalist for them to realize that although they portray the wealthy top One Percent as the enemy, it is the power of the Nineteen Percent behind them that they need to worry about; and that appears as not much of an issue with the protesters.  If so, it could easily become their downfall, a complete debacle for the movement.

For once, let’s be realistic and try not to live in ignorance or make-believe.

We should be challenging not only the meaning behind those statistics which are getting all the headlines, but also dig deeper for what other statistics may mean for a more just society.  Such statistics are available but unfortunately not properly analyzed or, at the very least, not properly presented.  There are very powerful implications to the well-being and justice for the bottom 80 percent of us… not just a majority, but a resounding and truly overwhelming majority… the EIGHTY PERCENT of POOR and POWERLESS in a nation we deem free and democratic, but which unfortunately is neither.  Here is what we tend to focus on… how unequal we are relative to The Wealthiest One Percent with three examples cited time and time again:

  • That the Top 1% owns 40% of the Nation’s Wealth; and,
  • That the Top 1% end up receiving 24% of the National Income (Take Home Pay); and,
  • That the Top 1% owns 50% of the nation’s stocks, bonds and mutual funds.

There is another truth, however, which gives a much greater condemnation of our capitalist system, a system which has gone array and makes a mockery of a just society, one which brings out the worst in our citizens, the predatory nature of man, not his compassion. 

Shouldn’t that overwhelming part of the population, the bottom 80 percent, be just as angry or upset if told they are joining forces with the only true middle-class, a class which in relative terms is ALMOST THIRTY-TWO TIMES (32X) as wealthy as they are? [The 19% group that follows the top 1% possesses 53% of the Nation’s Wealth; while the bottom 80% only possesses 7% of the Nation’s Wealth.]

Isn’t about time we look at the distribution of wealth in this nation, and realize the iniquity in our system of taxation, for the unworkable and unfair system that it is?

Should it surprise us that the standard of living for most Americans has been declining for years?  That more and more Americans lack access to basic necessities such as food and health care?  That 19 percent of Americans lack the money to put enough food on the table… while that’s only true with 6 percent of Chinese?

It is the system… a system which unfortunately is endorsed by far more than 1 percent of the population.  For America to set on a right course, the movement cannot be solely Occupy Wall Street… it should grow and become Occupy Main Street.

 

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Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:11 | 1779734 trav7777
trav7777's picture

nonsense, bitchez

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:44 | 1779810 anynonmous
anynonmous's picture

the following excerpt sounds wonderful but does not ring true nor are any references provided

 

  • That the Top 1% owns 40% of the Nation’s Wealth; and,
  • That the Top 1% end up receiving 24% of the National Income (Take Home Pay); and,
  • That the Top 1% owns 50% of the nation’s stocks, bonds and mutual funds.

Could Tyler's guest perhaps be guilty of promoting an agenda? How about solid data and facts please.

I for one am sick and tired of the effing BS from the mammer jamming dick head aholes.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:48 | 1779830 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

The top 1% have 100% of the power.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:38 | 1780000 trav7777
trav7777's picture

not even...the top 1% either of income or wealth isn't really that lofty.

I've been in the top 1% of earners on several occasions and I don't have any congressmen at my beck and call; I can't phone Obama like the Saint of Omaha can.  There's a TITANIC difference between the power of individuals and that of large corporations.  Those are like gigantic mechwarrior suits operated by their executives.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:41 | 1780169 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

OK.  1% is just a number.  Top 0.5%, 0.1% whatever.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:07 | 1780330 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

Yeah sure, "whatever."  The whining class can't even identify the targets of their anger, let alone propose realistic solutions to their perceived problems.  And redistributing wealth is not a real solution. 

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:25 | 1780375 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Hey Butthead, you're beginning to sound like an aristrocrat.  They have a simple solution: revolution.  And there will be a lot more than just wealth redistributed. 

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 04:03 | 1780566 Monedas
Monedas's picture

In North Korea....one Communist monkey owns 99.999999999 of what little they got ! Visit Pyongyang soon....we'll leave "the" light on for ya ! Monedas 2011 These OWS Acorn Operatives don't want a revolution ! Ask them ! They want four more years of Negro Care !

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 07:50 | 1780773 TaxSlave
TaxSlave's picture

Yeah, ignore the money-printers, ignore that all that debt is put on your head for you to never be able to pay off.

 

Focus on envy and hatred, let them redefine fascism as capitalism, and throw the rest of your freedom into the jaws of the beast.

 

That is the meme of our masters, brayed from every telescreen every moment of every day.

 

By the time they round you up to work on the collective farm after taking that land from all those greedy farmers, it will be too late for you.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 13:18 | 1782031 ifonly
ifonly's picture

"Negro care" ?? Racist much?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:39 | 1780004 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

The top 1% have 100% of the corporate-controlled media.

Fixed it for ya.

The top 1% think they control the masses, the military and all the enforcers.

However, that leaves about 95% of the third rail of citizens' ability to change gov't.  The first two, the ballot box and the jury box, have proven to be teats on a bull.  How many hungry people does it take to get to the center of a cartridge box?  We may soon find out....

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:45 | 1779821 Charlie J
Charlie J's picture

Indeed, there is a lot of nonsense in this post.

"For once, let’s be realistic and try not to live in ignorance or make-believe."  OK, good idea. I look around at where I "live" and I see nothing but people who would likely be called middle-class. 

It's a community of 40,000, a suburb of San Diego and there are 20 or 30 other communities like this in San Diego county.  Yes, there are communities that are "poor".  There always have been, always will be.  Less than an hour drive south, there are LOTS of people living in cardboard huts, in Tijuana.  I don't see anyone living in cardboard huts here.

It seems to be in vogue these days to say that the middle class has disappeared, that it doesn't exist anymore.  According to what metric, what definition?  It's mostly nonsense, but people like to write it anyway.

And there is no mobility?  What a crock.  I'm a succesful entrepreneur who grew up with nothing.  I mentor entrepreneurs in a program here in San Diego and I see a lot of folks doing startups.  The banksters and the politicians are indeed disgusting and really hurting our country, and hopefully we will be able to change this, but the reality is that they have little to do with the success or failure of the startups we are doing.  I spend exactly zero minutes thinking about the politicians or bankers when I'm working on a startup.

Yes, the stuff is probably going to hit the fan someday, but my preparation for it is to have a business going that will still generate revenue.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 01:48 | 1780487 ConfederateH
ConfederateH's picture

This guest poster is a real fever-swamp leftie.  He really shows that the 99% and 1% aren't about wealth, but about intellegence.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 07:11 | 1780689 Instant Karma
Instant Karma's picture

If you want to spread the wealth around you tax wealth and assets not income. Duh.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 09:08 | 1780910 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

And I dispute the claim that 19% of people don't have enough money to put the food on the table. The so-called poor in the U.S. are generally speaking fatter than the so-called Squires meaning they're consuming more calories not less.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:47 | 1779827 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

This sounds like the 1970s.  The top 1% decide to tax the next 19% to feed the bottom 80%.  This is the socialism scam.  Most of the next 19% earned their position the old fashioned way: education, work and savings.  But let's tax them and not have to make any fundamental changes to the game.  The downward spiral continues.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:28 | 1779958 anynonmous
anynonmous's picture

I would not dare to associate your post with the term loser but WTF are you talking about?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:49 | 1780022 Oracle of Kypseli
Oracle of Kypseli's picture

These percentages have always been lobe sided. The total IQ of America is constant. It is the population that increases. Therefore, these numbers are getting more lobe sided.

Ideology, politics etc. have nothing to do with these numbers.  

No need to argue back and forth. One who really wants to excel and climb up, he/she will.

Some have a head start and waste it and some climb out of ghettos against all odds.

 

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:01 | 1780313 rufus13
rufus13's picture

"The total IQ of America is constant. It is the population that increases. "

 

You are mistaken. The IQ of the USA is dropping fast, almost as fast as the quality of public schools (which is, at best, training/indoctrination), as the relatively intelligent majority northern eurpean/caucasian female is not having a half-dozen live births.  The last numbers (gov't fudged numbers) indicate barely replacement levels that I suspect are about 30% high. 

The new "standard" IQ for "Average" American residents will be more likely around 87 (from the 1960 average of near 100). If we keep importing central Africans, we could move this number closer to their average IQ of 70.  This means a huge shortage of workers who can do more than shovel and lift, or perhaps, drive a pattern with the help of a guidance computer after remedial training, and much much less wealth for the nation as a whole.  Innovation and ability to cope with change effectively will diminish. 

The IQ of Chinese Han is not going down. It's average 105  now, and probably higher in the urban areas.  300M motivated Chinese men who can't find wives need to do something about that. America has a slight surplus of women. 

Cheers. 

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 02:05 | 1780497 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

Hey, don't talk shit about Africans. Most (but certainly not all) of the African's I've met have been more intelligent and more polite than any of the 'mericans I know.

Hell, the way our public schools teach young kids math these days goes:

T:"Hey kids, what's 2+2?"

K:"I don't know"

T:"Ok, then let's get a consensus on it! Let's everybody write down what you think 2+2 is and pass it up to me."

T:"Ok, now let's see, most of you wrote down '5', so that's our consensus; 2+2=5"

K:"Yay! 2+2=5"

Then the police come in and give them their mandatory morning grope before they have to file down the hall prison style to their next class.

EDIT: And why would a bunch of intelligent Chinese dudes want to marry a fat braindead American manatee? They don't even cook, clean, work or do anything else that might be misconstrued as helpful.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 08:58 | 1780918 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

What you wrote is sad but true. If you have a chance, open up an elementary or middle school math text book in a U.S. public school. What do you notice? There are hardly any numbers. It's mostly word problems.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 10:27 | 1781193 Are you kidding
Are you kidding's picture

You're so right about most American women being worthless...and SO full of entitlement.  Fathers...you are FUCKING up your daughters!  They think every man owes them anything they desire.  They laugh at us saying "I'm not your mommy"...yet they EXPECT a "daddy" to provide them with everything.  Funny, men are still required to do the manly jobs...but we're supposed to SHARE the "womanly" jobs...PLUS be the sole family provider?  We men should start a national "Rent the cow...NEVER buy it" campaign to save our younger brothers from a wasted life.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 03:26 | 1780545 dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

It is true that the IQ appears to be going down.  I suspect it may have something to do with the food.  The amount of glutamate added to the food keeps going up and up and up.  Tests on rats have shown that when they were given added glutamate as pups they developed hypothalmic lesions.  I think it could be making it difficult for the kids to focus.  Autism is way up, ADHD is way up.  The kids can't handle the poison.  My own kids had problems.  One of them was autistic and the other had ADHD.  There symptoms have improved greatly since I got them off of the processed food.

I've looked into this a great deal.  The first time glutamate was added to the food supply was in the fourties, they started adding malted barley to the wheat flour.  That significantly raises glutamate levels.  Next came MSG.  Then when people complained about that the manufacturers started adding things that were autolyzed and hydrolyzed to add glutamate, but not have MSG on the label.  Now, glutamate is also in pesticides, so it is even on fresh foods. 

Glutamate is used for signaling in our bodies, so eating such large amounts has the capacity to mis-signal our bodies and cause disease states.  Also, too high of levels of glutamate can destroy cells.  Our bodies normally would easily convert it to other substances, but with such great amounts being ingested frequently, it can deplete us of the B vitamins we need to do the conversions.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:43 | 1780174 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"WTF are you talking about?"

Reread my post, dumbo.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:01 | 1779867 sangell
sangell's picture

Exactly, a bit much to say one was 'preyed' on for the past 30 years! That Reagan! unleashed an economic time bomb set to go off decades after he left office and no one could defuse it! An idiot might have not taken advantage of the various opportunities to accumulate wealth over those years and there are a lot of idiots in the world but one could have bought shares in an Apple, Microsoft, Biogen, DNA etc or even a house and made some money. If you didn't or, worse, if you did and spent it , well, too bad.

I do feel very bad for the kids leaving school today. They didn't have the opportunity to accumulate and very likely will not for years to come.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:29 | 1779963 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

In the land of opportunity, you make your own fortune, you don't sit around and whine about how life has given you the shaft.

These kids should start thinking about how to create, market, and manufacture the products needed by people in the future.

Steve Jobs came of age during the Nixon/Carter/Ford stagflation years.

So, what is stopping these whiners from doing the same.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:12 | 1780346 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

Was there 20% unemployment and globalization during those times, with 50% of people underwater in their mortgages?

I love the people with their idiotic anecdotes of why the 20% unemployed should have a job. Usually it comes from people who haven't been looking for a job in the last 10 years.

But thanks for the input. I'll file it under the "whatever" folder.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 23:53 | 1784095 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

This article's title had some promise, but the writer is obsessed with outcomes rather than the actual nature of the system, which preys on 99.99% to one degree or another (globally that means about 700,000 people run the world, that sounds high, if anything). The problem is in part materlialism, which the system pushes; it's become the standard for happiness for too many people. The 'American Dream' has been redefined; it used to be something like meaningful liberty in an orderly society. You don't have to be well off to be happy, but you do have to have love. The government makes even that more difficult by pushing and pulling us in different directions. Even now, their bureaucracies and regulations are sacrosanct; hiring is harder and more expensive every year, and self starter types are often deterred by or run afoul of the web of rules and dictates. We can't afford the levels of dependency we have now, but they seem intent on creating even more. Dependence breeds entitlement, self-justification, and eventually hatred for the hands that actually feed. They seem to want us to dislike one another, amping up the mistrust of regular Americans whenever possible. They want us focused on fairness, and each other, so that we avoid seeing them. It's not working like it used to. We see you.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:39 | 1780003 trav7777
trav7777's picture

the system is a ponzi of growth.  There is no opportunity in the aggregate for generations now to expect upward mobility.  Things are contracting, not growing.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:05 | 1780071 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

There will always be opportunities to make fortunes whether the economy is contracting or growing.

What one needs is the right frame of mind. As the saying goes, build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.

For example, there are these idea fairs where people take an idea or invention to showcase and evil corporations show up to see if there is something to the idea or invention to sell. People become rich selling their ideas and inventions to corporations.

There is always a need for some type of service, whether its grass cutting, dog walking, pool cleaning, selling tacos, helping old people understand their new digital remote control device, installing home theatres, or just selling plain ole sex. Lots of $5000 dollar and up whores out there, just ask Eliot Spitzer.

There is unlimited potential for positive thinkers.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:29 | 1780142 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

It is over for you.. we are coming for you.. we will take whatever we want from you weak, petty, spinless fucks.. now, go run and hide under a rock.. before the knock at the door comes!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:34 | 1780153 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Bam!, bam!, bam!

Is that you JW?

Say hello to my little friend:

my little friend

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 03:09 | 1780540 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Unless you're a T-101, you're going to have trouble defending your mom's basement with that....

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 09:02 | 1780925 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Yep, JW, you'll come for the successful. And you'll take all their stuff and maybe kill them for good measure. And then you and your fellow tatooed, functionally illiterate brethren that you seem to like to associate yourself with will starve to death because you have in fact been parasites all your life and don't have the skills to produce anything. When parasites kill their host, they die too you dumb fuck.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:16 | 1780358 aerojet
aerojet's picture

You believe that bullshit?  Those fairs are full of losers who mostly have rotten ideas and the few good ones get bought for a pittance or outright stolen from the inventors.  You might better play the lottery than fuck around with that crap.  Products, products, products.  Consumerism took a bullet ot the head and is lying on the ground bleeding out and you are telling us about people making their fortunes with some product!

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:17 | 1780362 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

lmao @ pure evil

You remind of that scene in Office Space where the guy says "what you need to do is come up with a really good idea, like the pet rock".

I have been seeing fewer and fewer people suggest there are easy solutions to making money lately. You are one of the few remaining, PE.

My favorite is "just start your own business" neglecting that most businesses fail. Oh and it wipes out your life savings.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:25 | 1780374 wisefool
wisefool's picture

Wait a minute. We know that there are not enough females in china. We are painfully aware that western women will whore themselves to Western politicians and other powerful men. We know that there is a huge trade and debt imbalance between the West and china.

Is anybody thinking what I am thinking? Make Love and not WWIII? Sexual liberation was the debt repayment plan all along? I am kinda a prude, but also fairly libertarian thinking. If thats how a person wants to live their life I am not going to stop them. And they would not be paying back my debts. I am poor but I do not consume hardly any resources and have no debt.

The russians have been exporting brides for a long time purportedly cause the men die young from overdoing it (work, booze, etc) . Americans overdo it by not working and loading up on trinkets.

This might be the solution! I am patriotic entrepenuer!

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 01:35 | 1780473 Incubus
Incubus's picture

I'm with you: send them all these loose-ass women with STDs, and call it a day.  No point in fighting over useless shit.  And we'll be better off with a few million less fake & bake gold-diggers in the country.  

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 04:36 | 1780582 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Waooooo, hopefully for US citizens, there is 6 billions people to cushion the US crash land down to reality. It will be massive pain for the 6 billions people though.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will always be opportunities to make fortunes whether the economy is contracting or growing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes and? Never been about the lack of opportunities but the quality, the nature of the opportunities.
Opportunities differ fundamentally in a growing environment or in a stalling environment.

In a stalling or contracting environment, alas for US citizens cheap propaganda, it is not possible to escape the plain fact that the rich man's gains are the poor man's losses.

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
What one needs is the right frame of mind. As the saying goes, build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door.

For example, there are these idea fairs where people take an idea or invention to showcase and evil corporations show up to see if there is something to the idea or invention to sell. People become rich selling their ideas and inventions to corporations.

There is always a need for some type of service, whether its grass cutting, dog walking, pool cleaning, selling tacos, helping old people understand their new digital remote control device, installing home theatres, or just selling plain ole sex. Lots of $5000 dollar and up whores out there, just ask Eliot Spitzer.

There is unlimited potential for positive thinkers.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This is the part showing up all the difficulties US citizens have with reality.

Because it is a list of opportunities that are typical to a growing environment.

US citizens as they are expansionists can not reveal the nature of opportunities that exist in a non growing environment.

In the end, the usual, laughable as usual.

Opportunities exist in any environment but they differ in nature. Please do not list opportunities that are typical to a growing environment when you are pointed to a stalling environment.

List the opportunities associated with a stalling environment.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 11:35 | 1781554 Are you kidding
Are you kidding's picture

There may be opportunities...but not as many and less potential for exponential growth.  A depression isn't bullish for much.  Just saying...

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 03:31 | 1780547 dolly madison
dolly madison's picture

Unfortunately, I picked Sun instead of Microsoft.  I didn't care though because I was busy riding the real estate boom by the time I lost my stock money, and I was smart enough to start purchasing some lesser value properties for cash, so I wasn't totally wiped out when that bubble burst, but still.  Should the people have to put up with this shit of banksters causing all this madness.  Screw the talk like yours.  Many people were hurt very much by the banksters crap.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:12 | 1779738 navy62802
navy62802's picture

But hey, futures are up!! Crisis averted, right?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:22 | 1779759 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

You are correct sir!

Ed McMahon

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:12 | 1779739 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Pure clap-trap.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:13 | 1779740 TradingJoe
TradingJoe's picture

There won't be any peaceful change to then better, only violence, read war, civil unrest, revolution that will bring about that mystical CHANGE!!!

Anything else is wishful thinking and TALK IS JUST CHEAP!!!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:02 | 1779875 max2205
max2205's picture

Should be the bottom 30% against the top 70% but no one would go see that movie

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:23 | 1779945 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

It will be the bottom 80% against the top 20% apparently, based on the comments above me so far.  George is right, in my opinion.  Whether people choose to believe it is up to them.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:34 | 1780393 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Hate to say it, but it likely will be nothing of the sort.

Most likely, barring WWIII, is that those who have private and corporate jets at their disposal will get on them and move elsewhere.  Then the remaining whatever % will fight one another for the scraps- that's what happened in Argentina, and you'd best believe that that was a trial run.

Best chance all of us have is to refute the nationalization of the bank's private debts, and pull together as communities.  There will be unrest, sure- and ultimately, blood.  But, if any of the standard arguments have even a grain of truth to them, the departure of the "elite" should be quite a load off the shoulders of America.  

There is this money layer over the world, and while it is important, it's not everything.  Ultimately, the US is a resource-rich developed country.  There's nothing at all stopping us from giving the entire rest of the world the finger, defaulting on the debt, closing our borders, and rebuilding this country.  Gotta find a substitute for oil, which is no small task- but it's not impossible, either.  Fighting on US soil is the worst possible outcome- destroying homes, industry and infrastructure won't help anyone in the long run.

Best game I can envision right now is for communities to organize as much as possible for self-sufficiency and security, and then refuse to pay any further taxes.  It won't work if one or two do it- it will have to be thousands of towns and cities, all at once, and every one of them will need to be prepared for the possiblity that they will need to fight to preserve their assumed sovreignty.  If not that, it will be millions of individuals who are hunkered down and starving, fighting one another- not a pretty thought.  Nobody, gold and guns or not, will be in very good shape if we are burning pieces off our own homes to stay warm, and hiding in rat holes instead of going to work raising food and producing goods.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 17:36 | 1783079 sethstorm
sethstorm's picture

The problem is that unlike Argentina, the US has a military that can shoot those planes down, repatriate the people who try to flee, and blacksite those that are outside of the US.  What allows people to move freely about the world also allows the US government to move freely as well. 

The world's superpower will be more than happy to turn on those that leave it with its military.  If anything, that will start World War III.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:14 | 1779742 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Portugal revolution, here we go! Military : if people riot, we will side with them, not the government!

http://economico.sapo.pt/noticias/militares-avisam-governo-que-estao-com...

Translated using google :

The military thus ensure that "serve the Portuguese people and not private institutions," and warns, "Let no one dare to think that the armed forces can be used in the repression of social upheaval that these measures may cause."

From a friend :
"This is really interesting. Basically, the Portuguese military has come out and announced that if the people riot, they are on the side of the people, not the government. Also, when journalists asked the military if they planned to revolt, their only response was "Revolutions are not announced ahead of time."  

 

The First Day of the 2nd American Revolution - Land of the Free

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv6Y_sCcqpg

Story: In a not too distant America, a small group of men who served in the American Military swore by the Constitution to protect their country from every enemy, foreign and domestic. Seeing Americas Freedoms and Constitution destroyed by the Patriot Act and other draconia legislation, they are pushed to the edge by the tyrranical, vicious Homeland Security. This forces upon us what becomes the first day of a second American Revolution.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:34 | 1779772 knukles
knukles's picture

Admirable.
However, as that dimwit Sec-state Warren Christopher was oft quoted, "I urge caution."
But not for the same vapid reason, but often history tells us, that when the "militar" sides with the peasantry, it is simply the vehicle for the militar to overthrow the incumbent gubamint whilst being able to "blame/obfuscate" such on a "people's popular uprising/revolution/movement."
Just history coming at us.  But then again, we're American and exempt from history, right?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:14 | 1779743 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

The Occupy Wall Street movement, whether by art or by design, has been careful not to make their common cause one of a struggle between classes

lolwut?

 That 19 percent of Americans lack the money to put enough food on the table… while that’s only true with 6 percent of Chinese?

 :facepalm:

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:30 | 1779967 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

One statement refes to the position held by OWS.  The other statement you reference is the Authors opinion and relating of information. They are not from the same source and do not represent a common position. 

OWS has indeed avoided the class distinctions.  You rich bastards are more than welcome to come by and do some work. ;)

The Facepalm is however well deserved, do it again.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:20 | 1780116 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

If you think the OWS protest isn't about class or doesn't portray that, then there is no hope for you. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:58 | 1780207 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Look, some at OWS believe there is a 1% that's corrupt, so the issue is with the corruption, not the class of 1%. Some at OWS believe in taxing the rich, but it's not a view shared universally by many, and it's not a position held by the broad organization - the general public.  It is the financiers of the world who have initiated a class war - anyone under their class, but OWS itself does not even believe that... the only common idea that most people share and if pushed, could be the 1 demand everyone would support, is that the financial system is corrupt and serves a select few, and that corruption has to stop.  Many include privileges of corporations as part of that corruption.  Many include invasion of other nations for their resources, under false pretenses, as being corruption. Many believe that we do a lot of evil things across the globe (social, economic and environmental) all in the name of making money, without addressing the impact.

In short, the objection is not that there is a class, it is that they perform a lot of negative acts.  If people had work, opportunities to earn enough to pay their debts, to feed / house / clothe themselves... like we had for the majority of the past 275 years in the US, do you think there would be a protest today?  Why not, since the class of 1% would still be there.

See what I mean?  Face, meet palm.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:12 | 1780226 Dasa Slooofoot
Dasa Slooofoot's picture

Some at OWS believe in taxing the rich, but it's not a view shared universally by many, and it's not a position held by the broad organization 

Not so sure your skills of observation are sharp.    "Pay your fair share, Bring on the Class Warfare"...signs you see repeatedly during the coverage of OWC.   Face meet palm, indeed.  

People don't believe in taxing the rich there?  Get real. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 00:16 | 1780264 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

According to your misguided logic, you could accuse Zerohedge of being for the same things you're chastising OWS as an organization because a few people express opinions there that are as you indicate. You are completely missing or willfully ignoring the clarification I'm trying to make so I won't waste more time.  People expressing an opinion is one thing, the majority agreeing that it's a commonly shared position that they, as organized protesters, want to be known for is completely different.  There is no single position that has been authorized as yet, that I know of, as an official stance on anything.  Same as Zerohedge has not validated my position as the position of the Blog.

 

Do you begin to see what the fuck I am wasting my time explaining?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:16 | 1779747 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

my college instructor asked a question 20 years ago...

Q. what do you get when law is enforced on the masses, but not on the uppercrust of society....

A. anarchy

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:19 | 1779750 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

A. Every country in the world.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:36 | 1779791 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

So 1 out of 5 people don't have money to put food on the table in the U.S.

compared to only 6% in China. That's because the Chinese buy food before they

buy crack or cable TV . Now all you bleeding heart liberals can give me a down vote,

but the truth is still the truth. I guarantee you, if we didn't give people food stamps

so freely, there would be a lot fewer cell phones and cable TV customers.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:09 | 1779894 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Blergh, has the thought ever entered your hollow brain, that techlevel does not blindly imply a certain living standard.... and that the stuff which you portrait as being a symbol of wealth, is among THE CHEAPEST STUFF on the market? A cell phone? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? They give those things away for free, on top of a 10$ flatrate per month! Same for all the other junktech toys.

But of course, you and all the similiar people bringing this up again and again, know this very well.... if they were honest about themselves, they'd know that they're talking shit....

...but it doesn't matter, because you folks don't care about truth - all your care about, is your obsessive ENVY, and SADISM. You folks, are the "lesser assholes".... your mentality is as predatory, greedy and sadistic as those above you whom your claim to despise, but whom you actually ENVY. It's all just one big dickslapping contest and e-penis envy, that is not concerned with fairness and necessity... but just plain "i define my own worth, by how much suffering i can cause to others, as compared to how much suffering other people than me can cause. The one who can cause the most damage, has it the best!".

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:37 | 1779998 Old. No. 7
Old. No. 7's picture

Psychopaths are estimated to comprise 1% of the general population. They are probably responsible for 99% of the suffering.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:15 | 1780099 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Damn, I think you covered everything. Well done. :)

 

My sentiments exactly.

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:23 | 1780250 smithcreek
smithcreek's picture

Go look at the US census data, the official data and look at the numbers regarding people living below the poverty line and ownership of all sorts of goodies from one, two and three flat screens per household, AC, number of refrigerators, autos, computers, cable tv, etc.  Really makes me wonder why the only tv my wife and I own is 19 years old, basic cable, one window unit AC, and we're on the edge of what Obamessiah calls "rich" nowadays.  By the way, you're a fucking idiot.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:51 | 1780283 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Of course, your "counterargument" is no indication at all, that the stuff which once upon a time was considered luxury, is now the new junk... and the stuff which once upon a time was considered "standard", is now the new luxury.

Hint: The former are non-neccessities, the later ARE neccessities and everything not required for the modern race to the bottom (i.e., food, silence, not having to fear death, free time to spend with friends and family, time for personal creative projects, producing what one needs oneself or trading it with one's neighbour.... all those things are now the new "luxury".... NOT fancy tech gadgets. The old luxury is the new junk..... but i guess, about 20 years or more of this happening, was not enough time for you to catch up with changing reality, vacuumhead)

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 14:03 | 1782186 spazz
spazz's picture

I had to login for the first time in months just to say

 

THIS!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:04 | 1780046 maximin thrax
maximin thrax's picture

If those 1 out of 5 were given/leased land on which to grow their own food (and that land is available), would they take advantage of the offer, or would they instead petition the government to tax the rich to hire a contractor to bring in illegals to work the farms on their behalf?

Which of us are too good to grow our own food? And wouldn't putting people to work growing food and making their own necessities effectively end unemployment? We may never have the economy the size to give every person a job that matches their diplomas.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:30 | 1780260 winter is coming
winter is coming's picture

Ever been to Africa? Everyone has a cell phone and everyone is in poverty.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:41 | 1780010 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

sorry, guys...

i didnt mean to start a war..

i just quoted a college instructor...

its gettin' bloody here...

p.s. wheres my flak vest when i need it!

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:56 | 1780423 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

My high school math teacher said there were three kinds of people.  Those who can count, and those who can't.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:23 | 1779761 Aguadulce
Aguadulce's picture

Dang I thought you were in your mid20s.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:06 | 1779892 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

nope, im an old, broke down ex-over glorified pack mule....

who gets called, on a regular basis...'grampa'

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:35 | 1779985 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Although I never married, had kids, let alone grand kids, sounds like you may be close to my age... unless you went to school later than average. I'll be hitting 48 shortly. :)

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:18 | 1780112 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

i alittle younger than that, but not much...

did check out a general assembly for occuppy______.  didnt see any tattooed faced, dread locked stinky people there.

about 50% were young, clean cut lookin' kids, the rest were middle aged or older...

i hung with about 30 vets, one was from korea, about 6 from nam',2 from DS, and alot from iraq and afgan. lot of peace time, too. lots of these kids were with the IAVA and VFW

the woman hanged out with a group of mothers, kids in tow, and the young girls were there from college...

stayed for about 3 hours to find out what they were about, it wasnt about wealth redistribution from the upper middle class....man, some of these trolls had me fooled...

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:09 | 1780223 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

The vast majority of people at OWS would probably dislike many things I would say. Many are simply young capitalists or people who have no qualms with capitalism, except they want an opportunity to participate.  I see that as ironic, since it is the mechanisms of capitalism that are preventing them from being presented with the opportunities. There is plenty of wealth within the country, but the holders of that wealth have no desire to provide jobs for people, simply to employ them... and there is no enterprise that is being prepared which would require labor... so it is the result of the mechanisms of capitalism that these people are unable to find work... but they have been taught to not question capitalism / economic models.

There are some who like me are looking at all options, considering all positions, to see where we went wrong. There are not many like me there.

Glad you found some people who you felt comfortable with.  In the end, for now, we just need to stand together against the corruption.  Not sure what will happen after that... probably nothing.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:44 | 1780269 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

you'd be surprised what these kids are up to...

the bank thing was only the beginning for them,

basically, they want their freedom...

and they refuse to support a system which wishes them to be serfs, yeah, they see the writing on the wall, 14+ trill debt,bthey feel they didnt sign their names to any debt,so its not theirs...

basically, the're opting out, until justice is administered on all the corrupt people who bqnkrupted this country....

and they think they'll win....i think they will be made examples of what not to do...

nope, im not joining this, i just wanted to know what it was about...

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:21 | 1780366 Richard Head
Richard Head's picture

If they didn't want to be serfs, they shouldn't have taken out huge loans to get useless degrees from fourth rate schools.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:45 | 1780409 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

yes, butthead, i agree...

but to them, its more about the 14 trill.

tell ya what, i went down there to talk to them,....

why dont you...go on, tell em what you feel...

they wont bite ya......

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 14:12 | 1782215 spazz
spazz's picture

I'm just going to copy all your posts into my facebook status today :)

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:40 | 1779799 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

The upper crust throughout the ages have always gotten away with crap the masses couldn't.

Even in the old soviet union the upper crust of the party could indulge in extravagances that the masses were denied.

The nomenklature had access to western goods. Just look at Kim Jong Il. He loved cognac, especially Hennesseys, fine exotic goods, and loved to indulge in pleasure teams of young females.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FI02Dg01.html

Whether it was Stalin, Mao, Fidel, or any other host of Marxist leaders, they all enjoyed the fruits of power denied to the masses.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:59 | 1780426 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

And they killed over 100 million people.  Good times ahead.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 11:26 | 1781514 tamboo
tamboo's picture

here's a sneak preview:

.sm-plain .thmbplay,span.sm-ldg,a.sm-cls,span.sm-flg,a.sm-flg,a.sm-snd,a.sm-hlp,a.sm-ext,a.sm-ext-u,.bbl-cls,#ysch .yui-dialog .container-close,#ysch .yui-dialog div.on,.sm-ctl-b,.sm-ctl-t{background-image:url(http://a.l.yimg.com/pv/i/us/sch/gr4/smsprt_20090407.png);background-repeat:no-repeat;font-size: 0;}.ads.horiz.bot{background-color:#FBF0FA;}.rais{min-width:516px}.rais h2 a{margin-right:7px}.rais .abst{max-width:42em;margin-right:8px;_margin-right:0;_width:508px}.rais p{margin-top:1px;*margin-top:0}.spns li.rais div h3{margin-bottom:1px}.spns li.rais div h3 a{font-size:123%}.spns li.rais div a{font-size:100%}body.opera .rais h3,body.safari .rais h3{margin-bottom:0}.rais .thmb{float:right;margin:4px 0 0 5px}.rais .btm{clear:both}.rais em{color:#008000}.rais_dl{color:#888}.rais_dl a{white-space:nowrap}.rais_vert{max-width:28em;margin:0;padding:3px 0 0 43px}.rais_vert:after{clear:both;content:'.';display:block;height:0;visibility:hidden}.rais_vert_dl{max-width:20em;float:left}.rais_vert_frm{max-width:20em;float:left;margin-left:35px}.ads li.rais .rais_dl a{display:inline}.ads.horiz{zoom:1}.ads .rais .vidmsg{width:94px;margin-left:4px}.ads.horiz ul.reducepx-spnslist{padding-bottom:4px;padding-top:3px}.rais a.thmb{width:82px;height:62px;border:1px solid #999;background-color:#FFF}.rais .thmb img{width:80px;height:60px;border:0;margin:1px}.rais img.thmb{width:80px;height:60px}.rais .logo{top:57px}
  1. The Georgia Guidestones - Illuminati Ten Commandments?
Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:17 | 1779748 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

"19% of Americans lack the money to put enough food on the table"

But most of them have a cell phone any many have enough money for alcohol or drugs.

If this problem was due to lack of work available, then why are there so many Mexicans

cutting lawns and working in restaurants and working in construction and in so many other

jobs? Why? Because the U.S. government, through its social programs has made a whole

class of entitled nonproductive citizens who find it a whole lot easier to live off the dole

than to take a job at minimum wages.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:20 | 1779753 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Finally, someone that can see through all the smoke.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:42 | 1779807 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Pure Evil... It looks like there are a lot of "entitled people" posting on ZH tonight.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:52 | 1779836 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Yes very entitled!

The US Constitution currently guarantees my right to Free Speech.

The Obama zombots may get offended, but they also get offended if anyone has five dollars more than someone else, and they all end up taking jobs paying six+ figure salaries, owning McMansions, driving Beamers and BMW's, and adding to the Earth's carbon footprint by producing more self-absorbed spoiled brats just like themselves, that seem to think that everyone else but themselves should make sacrifices, think Al Gore.

Meaning of course they become the next group of elites that rob and rape the world. Here we have a community organizer that bitched about the unfairness of the system handing out hundreds of millions of dollars to friends and associates.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:23 | 1779762 Rynak
Rynak's picture

*facepalm*

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:25 | 1779767 Aguadulce
Aguadulce's picture

Yes thank you! No doubt all of them reading this blog are giving you -1s from their iPad....

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:28 | 1779773 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

I like negative one's, it means I've pissed off some brainwashed mindless Obama wealth redistributionist robot.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:44 | 1779816 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

And yet you're nickname is Pure Evil.  Yeah, whatever you're for, I'm against.  You're obviously a Tory loving tool.  God save the king.

Fucktard.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:49 | 1779831 trav7777
trav7777's picture

and yet you don't know the difference between your and you're...jfc

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:11 | 1779905 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Wow.  Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Up you're's [sic].

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:54 | 1779850 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Obviously it was your parents that were the fucktards.

Cause you were the end result.

Seeing how you were raised by liberals, its a shame they didn't believe in abortion and saved the planet from one more carbon footprint.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:07 | 1779895 Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous's picture

Ha ha, yeah, you know me so well.  Because Navy Drill Instructors are such noted 'liberals'. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:34 | 1779981 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Yes, we know you real well, you're the one that is against whatever I'm for, being that I'm a Tory loving tool.

Now is that Tory Spelling your talking about? Cause she is one humongous uggo. So, in effect I'm not a Tory loving tool.

And, I think its God Save the Queen.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:40 | 1779788 knukles
knukles's picture

And pretty soon coming to a below the poverty line near you (New, for real proposed Gubamint program.) welfare recipients will be eligible to receive a cell phone.  And what's a phone without having the bill paid and since these people are below the poverty line ...
Get it?
So they'll be giving the -1s from their new subsidized iPhones (G5 only as in pursuit of equality... and a big gubamint contract for the phone dudes.... all being part of the Leviathan information control mechanism)

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:50 | 1779839 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Pretty soon?  It's here now.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:04 | 1779885 Thunder Dome
Thunder Dome's picture

Can we ringfence the ghettos?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:49 | 1780018 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Already been planned.  Check out BBC's Earth: 2100 ....

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:58 | 1780021 Blankman
Blankman's picture

Funny you should say that.  I have worked in the Chicago ghettos as they were "redistributing" the black man from the nicer inner reaches of the city.  They had us inside a chain link fence while we were part of the process of demolition on the Robert Taylor homes.  We were told not to go outside of the fences as the local people were not very pleased with what was going on.  Oh and yes this happened while OBama was around.  We are all part of the bankruptcy of America, always have been.   

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:08 | 1780079 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

No, it would be much to expensive to put a fence up around Mexico and Central America.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 14:13 | 1782220 spazz
spazz's picture

law mowing and bus boy, that's upwards mobility for sure!  Did you miss that part of this article?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:20 | 1779754 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

How to know if you're one of the top 500 ...

1) You have a direct line to the President and anyone in the cabinet

2) You spend more than $5,000,000 a year on fuel for your jets and yachts

3) You own 15-20 villas and penthouses worldwide

4) You regularly throw $2,000,000 get-togethers for your closest 50 friends

5) Your wine bill for the year would buy 50 middle class homes

6) You have collected more than a few tons of honors and awards for being a great humanitarian

7) You regularly overthrow governments in the third world for your financial interests

8) You have so many body guards you don't know their names

9) The armor plating on your Checy Suburban exceeds that of Marine Corps HumVees

and

10) Your refer to everyone else as "little people"

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:24 | 1779764 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Wow, that describes my lifestyle to a tee!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:03 | 1779879 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Since anyone meeting that criteria would have absolutely no need for zerohedge... it must be the foreplay before another fuckjob.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:10 | 1780086 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

No need for foreplay when performing a fuckjob, but it would be compassionate to do it without the using sand paper on the victim.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:21 | 1780121 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Yeah, but why ruin the whole moment, you know?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:22 | 1779757 oldman
oldman's picture

Hopefully, the stupidity has worn off and the 80% will prevail. The old system cannot function because there is not enough of the wealth distributed to supply the wherewithal to run any economy in the world at this time. Everyone seems to overlook this very simple fact of the dynamics of capitalism.

When I was a younger man, an old man who had started his career as a 'stock analyst' in 1929 told me something that made a great deal of sense to me and answered the question I had asked him at a time when interest rates were 14% on UST's. I had asked him why everything was so screwed up under such a great system and he replied:

"The only thing that capitalism has never worked out is an equitable system of distribution of goods and services in the society. Aside from this, young man(I was once), capitalism is perfect."

So, this is as far as I got in economics and it still seems correct to me. Since no one ever listened to my old man friend and no one worked out the easy answer----'folks gotta do what folks gotta do'---and we are fucking doing it.

Am I angry---yeah, all of this was so unnecessary          om          

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:26 | 1779768 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

If you were to suddenly inherit 500 million from an unknown relative that just died, your attitude would change dramatically.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:38 | 1779796 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Oh, come on..... i don't expect a reply that makes sense, but can't you at least TRY to come up with a response that SOUNDS convincing and reasonable?

This guy was completely right - apart from the fact that capitalism cannot efficiently ensure distribution of supply and demand, in a macro scale, it's working just great. Besides of the fact, that there is no free market for 99% of people, it's totally free and full of liberty.

And no, that does not mean that the opposite economic models solve everything. Actually, they just have exactly the inverse strengths and weaknesses.... where capitalism excels, others suck, and where capitalism sucks, other more holistic models excel.

But of course, to accept such a possibility, we'd have to accept the possibility that there is no "perfect" model which we can choose.... thus, there not being any "camp" that "is right"..... and you know, that not very comfortable...... how could people survive without subscribing to stereotypes and maximes? They'd have to..... think.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:19 | 1779930 oldman
oldman's picture

Hey Rynak,

I almost shut this thing down when I saw your comment. I'm too tired to think well, but I do want to say that we never HAD to stick to an inhuman system and I think David, the old man, was sad because capitalism does not have to be ruthless. We could have rules and customs that put limits on the pirates and robber barons and bankers and pols and you and me---just rules about not taking the last drop of blood of your victim.

Maybe that is too inflammatory. You and everyone else can figure this out; I' m assuming of course that I'm not writing to a psychopath but a civilized human being who wants to live in peace on this beautiful planet. I'm certain you are one of these guys or I would be asleep by now.

Economic models can be opposite and complementary at the same time. It is we humans that decide these things and operate the systems, the 'isms' to which you refer. We can make them work for almost everyone in the society; this was what David's comment to a younger man was all about and I have carried this secret for all of these years and never told a sole before---so just try it out in some imaginary world and see if you can make it work--I think you will find it fun---                   

The revolution does not have to be violent---but, we are stuck with violence because we are a violent culture---its in our genes and all of that has to wash out before genius is going to rule---and, yes, there is intelligent life in the US

Too late for more garbled gunk      thanks     om

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:37 | 1780159 Ranger4564
Ranger4564's picture

Rynak / Oldman, glad you guys are here to talk about responsible economics.  I know to a lot of people, slogans like free market, deregulation, freedom light up their lives, but in fact, we just need to get to acknowledgement that we have a flawed economic model and we need to look for a better one.  Our economic model cannot satisfy the vast majority of the people on Earth... that is a complete failure.  I propose many options for consideration, people just dismiss them because they do not fit their self-serving model.  

 

Regards,

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:40 | 1779798 oldman
oldman's picture

If I recieved a gift of any amount I would keep $100,000 just to play this shitty stupid game and give the rest away. I live simply, brother and don't even need the hundred grand, but I would not want to be disrespectfull to the donor.

I can live well on $500 per month and my governmeny 'entitlement' gives me that. Shit, I put in $90,000 over all those years whining about it every payday----a terrible return on investment, wouldn't you agree.

I guess not you probably think I am just another insect that YOU have to pay for---I hope so, at least, because it gives me great pleasure to take 'your money' even though it came out of my pocket

And I apologize for my hostility, but you don't know a goddamned about what you are talking about Pure Evil.

Let's just let it go at this                       om 

You really got me on that one---you're a shrewd devil, you are---OK now--Laughing at this oldman  Thanks, pal!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:57 | 1779857 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Of course you would.

You know how much of a pussy you sound like right now.

I would only keep a $100,000 and use the rest to save the world.

What a maroon!

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:00 | 1779866 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

LMAO @ pure evil

If I inherited $500 million, it would be like the lottery. If the government taxed me 99% on $500 million that would still leave me $5 million. And I'd probably give $4 million away to family and friends.

I used to make 6 figures and I NEVER complained about taxes. It always astonishes me how someone that takes home over a $1 million can be a whiney bitch about paying taxes.

How much more money do you need? SERIOUSLY!

You people are PATHETIC. We need to increase taxes on the wealthy for social stability and equity. Also, it sure helps economic growth unlike corporate and wealthy tax cuts.

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:11 | 1779893 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

I need all the money I can get. I'm like a hoarder with a house full of crap. The more I can accumulate the bigger my bank account gets.

You see, money is just a tool, used to make life pleasant.

That way I'm not forced to live in the ghetto next to section 8 peasants, drug dealers, prostitutes and the rest of the bottom rung of life's castoffs.

Pity be the old folks with no scratch to make life comfortable.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 01:55 | 1780493 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Your trolling is too obvious, man.

I'll give you an A because you're a bit better at this trolling thing, but I think you're just trying harder because you're one ugly motherfucker IRL.  Ugly people are always real assholes.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:32 | 1779783 reader2010
reader2010's picture

So you think we're in something called Capitalism? Sorry to break it to you but we have lived in a financial fascism since 1913. 

"You can checkout any time you like. But you can never leave! " - Eagles

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:37 | 1779793 knukles
knukles's picture

"Webe da roaches inda roach motel, mutherfuckah."

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:42 | 1779804 Rynak
Rynak's picture

Sorry to break it to you, but there has never ever been capitalism, communism, socialism, fascism or libertarianism....... none of those things ever existed in the "pure" form described by their proponents.

But don't stress your intellect too much..... that's just a coincidence, and not an indication of one's one premises being totally fucked.

Now, be a good robot, and continue fantasizing about things that never were and never will be, because they cannot be.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:53 | 1779847 oldman
oldman's picture

I don't understand a word of what you said Rynak, but i'll give you a green because I see that i am defending an oldman a position from a lot of very defensive people and it is three am here----

What are you saying----maybe I'm just tired but I don't quite recognize the language

maybe another time, thanks anyway      om

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:24 | 1779932 Rynak
Rynak's picture

I'm talking about dichotomies.

Oh wait, i'm supposed to not notice, that capitalism basically is a reductionist approach to economy, while communism is a holistic approach to economy (yeah, i know, in how they were implemented in the past, there were a few more ideological differences, but i don't care so much about details, when i'm thinking in overall categories).....

....and libertarianism and fascism? Could that perhaps also just be a reductionist (individualist) approach to culture, versus a holistic (collectivist) approach to culture?

And how can there be subs, without their being a super, and how can there be a super, without it consisting of subparts? But i guess such a rootlevel LOGICAL contradiction, has nothing to do with the fact that all those "ideologies" (which actually should be classified as mental disorders) never existed in their pure form.

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:10 | 1780085 formadesika3
formadesika3's picture

All "isms" are reductionist, you turd snapper!  Just WTF are you talking about? You don't care so much about details when youi're thinking in categories? Who's supposed to be impressed by that grandiose statement? And all that other spewing drivel.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:24 | 1780179 Rynak
Rynak's picture

All "isms" are reductionist? ORLY?

Let's check this out.....

The popular reoccuring theme, regardless of whom you ask - proponent and antagonists alike - is that in capitalism, trading decisions only cover an individual scope... i.e., when people trade, all they need to consider, is their own scope. That goes a long way to respecting individual wishes... but those individual wishes may be blind to systematic things.... and that gets us to communism:

The reoccuring theme of communism - proponents and antagonists alike, and regardless of leftwing-style or rightwing style... is that economic decisions are made by looking at the entire economy. So, "top-down".... IF this were done right, it would go a long way to considering systematic issues, but unfortunatelly it also tends to ignore individual choice and details of individual cases.

How is that not reductionist and holistic?

But wait, i've got more, you smartass moron without a clue.....

Libertarianism and fascism? Um, let's see..... why could it be, that most libertarians also selfdescribe themselves as individualists? Perhaps because it's all about individual choice and freedom, and a reluctance to compromise for collective issues?

And what about fascists? Have you ever talked to one of them? I bet 99% of you people who decry fascism, have never ever talked to anyone who truely believes in it. You'd notice two things: Just like the capitalists, communists, and libertarians, they decry how it in the past has been implemented (mostly involving dictatorship and "crony whatever")... what do the proponents of fascism actually seek? Umm yeah, they care about a cultural "group image", a sense of unity and to make people work together for a strong.... collective.

So, they put higher priority on ... systemwide concerns (hello holism!) ... than they do on individual issues. But unfortunatelly, where there is a "set", there also are "parts", so all that is achieved by ignoring "parts", is that you'll get "some parts" playing the crony part, and defining the group image of the set.... instead of the majority of people defining it.

How is that not a holistic bias?

Kay, now STFU idiot without a clue.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:46 | 1779826 oldman
oldman's picture

Jesus, Reader,

How can you refer to one of the great lines of music in my taste with such a trite and mundane comment?

What the hell do either one of us know about 1913 except what one fop or another fop wrote?

Come on, man---get with it---there a revolution going on---we're on the same ship

But that line---man, it's true---Ive checked out a lot of times, but I never did leave

Thanks for reminding me of that     it still makes me laugh on a very personal level    om

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:29 | 1779771 defencev
defencev's picture

 It is true that there was growing income inequality between different group of Americans. It is a negative development, leads to social tensions and should be corrected within current political system. Those who argue for change need to ask a simple question:

what are alternatives? The one is Marxist revolution and socialism (and that is what "Occupy Wall Street" movement  is about, however they try (initially) to hide their goals. Deep in his heart president Obama is all for it but he is smart enough to hide (initially) some of his major transformational goals too. The thing is socialism has failed in 100 percent attempts to install it as a fair society. The usual outcome was the creation of nomenclatura as a new elite with all others in deep, deep shit.

 The other alternative is anarchy with current examples like Somali. There are definitely people who are inspired by this example and they create various networks, hoard Gold in hope to be the fittest for this new reality. For vast majority of people the reign of anarchy will mean the catastrophe leading to the destruction of civilization as we know it.

 The change within current political system should return the idea of America as a land of opportunities where people can realize their talents and where awards come to the most productive members of the society not just a group of pathetic speculators. That, of course, only possible with recreation of manufacturing base, capital and creating right conditions for innovation.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:29 | 1779777 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

The Flea Bagging OWS crowd will bring pestilence, plague, and soon violence to every city they visit. When they don't get what they want they will simply break windows and take what they can and burn what they can't. The liberals have brainwashed an entire generation through the education system that they are above manual labour and must be paid at least $100,000 a year.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:27 | 1780136 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Long John, It looks like you are right . Seeing all your down votes only verifies what you have posted.

We live in country full of people who have been brainwashed into thinking they are entitled to much more

than they are worth. No wonder the U.S. is in such a rapid rate of decline.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 23:45 | 1780246 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"We live in country full of people who have been brainwashed into thinking they are entitled to much more"

I hate Ben, Timmah, and that Jaime Dimon fucker too... Along with those welfare dependant junkies Fannie, Freddie, and GM.

I'll deal with those little slackers sittin' on the porch later.  Right now I need them for Barry and Keith's attempted co-opt.  I mean, Sarah and Glenn got theirs.  Seems fair.  None of it matters anyway.

Unrest should surprise no one here.  Bank runs/failures, no surprise.  The uncertainty is in the financial freak of nature coming to replace it, and save us all.  We don't own gold and silver cuz we thought they were actually gonna fix things?

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:31 | 1779782 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

possess the nation's wealth. funny. measured in usa dollars and paper real estate deeds and stocks and such no doubt. :roll:

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:31 | 1779784 Hyper Entropy
Hyper Entropy's picture

I don't know if I give a fuck about this. I worked my ass to bare sinew for the little coin I do have. Came out of Grad School with 125K in debt, six years later I have 6K left to pay off. Oh, and I bought a condo and a car during that time. All the energy spent crying and cunting around would be better spent working your ass off with a little internet porn to boot. The OWS crowd are not hustlers but limp-wristed faggots. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:59 | 1779865 cossack55
cossack55's picture

If you understand entropy then you know this system is toast. You may be wise to put a little fat over the sinews for the lean times that are fast approaching.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:33 | 1779789 newbee
newbee's picture

Pure Marxist Socialist dribble.  Let's just for fun compare our "middle class" to say China's via today's ZH post on The Last Train Home.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/last-train-home-video-documentary-human-cost-behind-chinas-stunning-growth-story

There is no such thing as "fair".  Life has never been "fair".  Sorry.  The best system ever devised to allow the most people the chance to get ahead in life is the Capitalist system with all its warts and unfair practices.  Strip the 1% of every penney they have and give it to the government to "redistribute".  Will anything change?  Hell no.  We're so far in debt it won't even budge the needle.

Government debt is the problem, not the 1%ers, not Wall Street, not the rich CEOs.  The game is rigged with big Gov in the driver's seat.  That's it.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:01 | 1779868 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

But, you just don't get it.

 To make everything fair is to allow you to work your ass off so that you can be forced to give up any hard earned gains to some asshole that's figured out how to live off the government teat.

You can't have a welfare system without someone being productive.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:21 | 1779937 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Pure Evil... Charity should be voluntary, if it isn't, then it is not charity.

The government has no right taking money from hard working people and

giving it to those it deems needy. That is redistribution of wealth.

The only reason they do it is to buy votes with taxpayer money.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:50 | 1780026 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Good grief.  There has always been a redistribution of wealth since humans have had civilization.  There will always be a redistribution of wealth.  The point is that it is in the 1% interests to share a little.  If they don't voluntarily (they're not), then the redistribution will take place whether they want it or not. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:45 | 1780168 maximin thrax
maximin thrax's picture

There's been slavery since the beginning of civilization, but that doesn't make it right.

Here's proper wealth redistribution:

I drive a $2500 beater, while Mr. 1%'er drives a $65,000 car. We both get to work and to the store when we want. I put the tires on his car. What am I missing out on, and who took it from me?

I buy a $165,000 home, while Mr. 1%'er buys a $1.4 Million mansion. We both stay warm and dry at night. I painted his mansion. What am I missing out on, and who took it from me?

I buy dinner at the Olive Garden for $15, including tip, while Mr. 1%'er spends $150 for dinner. Neither starves. I wait his table. What am I missing out on, and who took it from me?

I drove to Myrtle Beach with friends for a week for $2000 and ate local seafood until I burst. Mr. 1% took the private jet to Europe with friends for a cool $85,000. We both have pictures. I'm a mechanic at the hanger he keeps his jet. What am I missing out on, and who took it from me?

As long as Mr. 1% pays multiples what I pay for my necessities for his luxuries I'm not sure why I'd begrudge him his jet and his Mercedes and his Lobster dinner. As long as I keep from Jonesing the things he has that I don't, I'm not unhappy with what I have. A house is a house. Food is food. Vacay is vacay.

Not having that opportunity to earn money to buy the things I need is the real problem. How then do my opportunities improve by redistributing wealth such that the rich guy's house I'm painting is one third the size it would have been, the ritzy restaurant I wait tables at closes and I'm now working at Olive Garden, and the Rich Guy private airport is closed because the 1%'ers got rid of their jets to improve public relations?

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 01:04 | 1780438 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

@maxim

You're missing the point. And whenever someone brings up the implication of envy, you need to remind them this is a loaded, propagandish term from the right.

People aren't angry because they can't have a million dollar home. And if you're so wealthy that you don't understand that, I pity your ignorance. Marie Antoinette had such ignorance.

First, equal distribution of wealth creates a healthy society. So that on it's own merits should be a reason to tax the wealthy. You say taxing the wealthy stops the private jets? Well what if it creates super-fast magneto trains instead?

Secondly, you're missing the outright abuse of our system by the wealthy. It is not fucking envy that enrages people. It's Obama, a supposed democrat, serving $15,000 a plate dinners and giving the wealthy tax cuts while promising to cut the heating assistance to the poor and slashing social security to appease the tea party.

 

 

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 05:44 | 1780608 oldman
oldman's picture

Max,

This is one best comments I have read that describes today. We 99%ers are talking about,

"that opportunity to earn money to buy the things I need is the real problem"

that you have stated so eloquently.

What I am suggesting is that we soften all of the 'isms'from the black and whitein which we think of them and allow them to be complementary rather than polar opposites. Why can we not drop our condioning of agression and violence to sit down and put together a way of being that works for each of us?

Some of us never wanted all. We just wanted to live together, each with his privacy and needs met, and live out our wonderful lives.

This can be done and is being done successfully by certain small nations. I remember reading the comment of a Swede more than 30 years ago now, a medical doctor who said:

"The system doesn't work. I only make a million a year and I stop because I get so little for doing more with a 90% tax rate." I do not have the exact quote so this is from my oldman's memory, but I do remember thinking about how crazy it was to bemoan the fact that anyone could want so much. I decide that the 90% rate(this was under Reagan I when the discussion was hot and heavy) had as one of it's merits, a limit so high that if one wanted more he could have it, though not all of it. I'm OK with that still because there are those who are mad enough(from my perspective) to want it all. And there are the rest of us who simply want to meet our basic needs and opt out of any more.

This was when I decided that 'minimalism' was the road for me. I have been a happy camper since then, frustrated only at how so many do not have this option and are kicked around like dogs by the agressive ones who never get 'enough'. 

So why not limit the polar opposites to where they can complement each other? There is enough for all            om

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 00:54 | 1780419 batterycharged
batterycharged's picture

zorba, I corrected it for you:

 

Corporations have no right taking hard work from hard working people and

keeping it for themselves because they deem themselves ENTITLED. That is theft of wealth.

Have you ever played Monopoly, Zorba? When people land on Boardwalk...did you earn that money?

Our economy is like Monopoly, but unlike Monopoly in our economy when people get up the next morning to play again, they don't give people equal money. People wake up and one man still owns everything.

Would you ever play Monopoly if you were forced to continue a game that you had already lost?

Kudos to people that work hard. But tell me, did Bill Ford Jr. (great grandson of Henry Ford) deserve that $45 Million bonus this year?

Get the picture Zorba? "Earning" is sooo subjective.

Mon, 10/17/2011 - 01:36 | 1780476 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

Battery, If everyone took that attitude, this country would go down the drain in no time.

I worked in the corporate world for a while, and worked much harder than my peers.

I was rewarded with promotions and soon passed senior employees to become department 

head. There was a lot of resentment to me because I was a lot younger than all but one

employee in the department. When the company moved its headquarters, I decided not to

go and started my own business. After years of hard work and long hours, my business

became a success and I have since sold it and now enjoy a life of financial security.

I have seen many people, some of them immigrants who barely speak English, make a

very good living working hard in their own businesses. It's easy to blame someone else

for keeping you down, but you have to allow it to happen. There is still plenty of opportunity

in the U.S. if you are willing to work hard. That's why so many foreigners want to come here.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 22:58 | 1780209 nick howdy
nick howdy's picture

Dear Dr. Evil,

Life isn't fair,  just ask Marie Antoinette...I do expect that eventually the OWS crowd, along with some not so peaceful friends, will seek justice in much the same way that the French populace did.  The destruction that Wall Street and our Plutocratic government produced deserves such action. 

 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:01 | 1779869 cossack55
cossack55's picture

So, who do you think controls the gubmint? You may wish to remove your head from your anus from time to time to get a little oxygen.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:22 | 1779941 pods
pods's picture

Government debt is the only thing that has kept Long Pig off the dinner menu in the last couple of years.  

P+I=Future P.

Simple as that.

pods

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:38 | 1779794 Phaethon
Phaethon's picture

I bet the author felt all tingly while penning this class warfare garbage piece. 

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:43 | 1779900 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Yep, and it's running all up and down Chris Matthew's leg.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:51 | 1779802 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

MOST of the top 1% didn't start there. I could use many examples; Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, George Soros, Oprah Winfrey, etc etc etc didn't start there. Shit, John D Rockefeller whom adjusted for inflation would be the richest man to have ever lived started out dirt poor with shit. The Declaration Of Independance states "The Pursuit Of Happiness" not a right to happiness. If you're in the top 1% in this country chances are you earned it, and the attitude should be emulated instead of chastized.

The problem with America is that there is an attitude of entitlement. I am entitled to healthcare. I am entitled to a home. I am entitled to a job. I am entitled to two weeks paid vacation. I am entitled to 5 days paid sick days a year. I am entitled because I'm American.

There are thousands, tens of thousands of people who are protesting right now against a symptom. Did WS make loans they shouldn't have and levered up? Yea. Well, were there Americans lying on their mortgage docs to get approved for loans they otherwise wouldn't have? Yup (that's called fraud which you should go to jail for) Were there real-estate agents selling unrealistic dreams to score fat commission checks? yes sirrr. Were there Americans levering up by buying 5,6,7 homes at a time for the sole purpose of flipping em to the next sucker in line? uh huh. Were there politicians whom not only encouraged the behavior but actually forced the banks to engage in this behavior? you betcha. Has anything changed? Have we learned anything? OH HELL NO. 

Look at GM. They are dishing auto loans out to sub-prime borrowers like it's going out of style. There are student loans being handed out by the wheel barrel that will never get paid back. The US government itself is borrowing away the futures of not only our children but at this rate each and every one of us. 

The problem isn't wall street or even the top 1%. If you confiscated every US billionaires wealth it would only pay for the current deficit and that money would be gone forever. If you confiscated every single millionaires wealth IT WOULDN'T EVEN PAY FOR HALF THE DEFICIT and that money would be gone forever. The problem is the attitude of Americans and the behavior and enviroment the government encourages. As long as we have a government that fertilizes irresponsible behavior we will be on a course to absolute financial apocalypse. The fact is WS never stole any money...our government gave it to them...yes even Obama voted for the WS bailout (TARP) so it's very sweet of him to be supporting the anti-ws movement.

If you want to make real change #occupywashingtondc

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 20:55 | 1779853 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"MOST of the top 1% didn't start there."

Yeah they did or they were born on third base.  If you try, you can make it from the bottom 80% to the next 19%.  Almost no one is cracking the top 1%.  And going forward just forget about it.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:03 | 1779878 cossack55
cossack55's picture

Poor Bob is having reality issues again.  More drugs Bob, more drugs.

Sun, 10/16/2011 - 21:04 | 1779881 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

You came to this conclusion based on what?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!