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Guest Post: The Best Way To Stay Out Of Student Loan Debt And Boost Your Resume
From Simon Black of Sovereign Man
The Best Way To Stay Out Of Student Loan Debt And Boost Your Resume
Despite the mind-numbing mantra we constantly hear from our political leaders and central bankers that inflation does not exist, there are certain parts of our lives where even a freeze-dried coffee bean can see that prices are clearly rising: At the grocery store. At the doctor’s office. At the gas pump.
One of these places is also our hallowed institutions of higher learning. It’s no secret that the cost of university education, especially in the United States, is staggering. Tuition at private schools in the US averages $30,000 annually, and students often graduate over $50,000 in debt.
This leads to a fancy form of indentured servitude; students with this kind of debt load are forced to take the first paid work they can find, and they’ll work for the next 14-years of their life just to start back at zero.
Graduate schooling can be even more painful. Top MBA programs can charge $50,000 per year or more, and for those who still cling to the idea of working their way up the corporate ladder, this has become a necessary step.
Especially now in the midst of a severe recession, it has become a new trend for people to head back to school, firm up their credentials, and wait out the economic downturn.
I have a better solution for you to consider: head overseas.
Going to a school overseas ticks a lot of boxes– for one, it’s a hell of a lot cheaper, and you don’t emerge deep in debt like you would back home.
Second, the quality of the education is as good if not better than what you would otherwise receive.
Third, and most importantly, it’s just more interesting. The experience abroad will be much more fulfilling, and it will distinguish you from the pool of other candidates who all have generic resumes.
Let’s say you’re an Ivy League type. Why pay Harvard $52,000 per year when you can go to the University of Cambridge in England for around $19,000 per year? Cambridge is consistently rated as one of the top universities in the world: same quality education, a fraction of the price.
If that sounds like too much, consider a place like Hong Kong University. Tuition at Asia’s top school is around $15,000 per year, and there are plenty of scholarships and financial aid packages available. Not to mention you’d be networking with future movers and shakers in the region.
Still too much? Look at Erasmus University in the Netherlands, whose Rotterdam School of Management is one of the top business schools in Europe. Tuition in the all-English program is around $11,500 per year, 73% less than Notre Dame’s Mendoza School, and 26% less than Michigan’s Ross School of Business.
Still too much? Try Qatar University, where there are numerous English-language programs in disciplines such as business and engineering. Tuition for foreign undergraduates is just $4,000 annually, and you’d be spending formative years in one of the world’s most thriving, opportunity-rich economies.
Still too much? Try Albert Einstein’s Alma Mater, the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH) in Zurich. If you make the cut, ETH’s tuition fee is a whopping $750 per semester for both undergraduate and graduate programs, and the school is typically ranked among Europe’s top 5 universities.
Here’s the bottom line– if you’re facing an uphill battle for prospects and opportunities, get creative; don’t simply follow the same path that everyone else is taking. The world is a big place– stop limiting yourself by geography and start looking overseas for solutions.
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Why don't you go to the library for four years and study on your own. Dig deep into herbal medicines. Start growing your own stuff, buy a press and make tinctures you can sell for 10$ -20$ and oz
At least until the jackboot thugs at the FDA realize how much profit they are loosing on their drug manufacturing gig.
SB's article is another failure of the status quo!
USA is on such a downward slope, it really disgusts me. Fucking adults in this country have ruined it horribly for their kids. Fat Dorito-eating bastards who spent wildly on real estate, paying $600k+ for overpriced stucco boxes. HELOC'd themselves to death to drive German cars. Put nothing aside. Now they want bailouts while watching Real Housewives and all the other shit that reguarly scores number one in the ratings.
Banker criminal class sees all of this, and that is why they are on top. Bankers know and understand Americans are lazy, stupid, and too fat and content to do anything about it. I guarantee you 90% of Americans couldn't even tell you what TARP is or stands for, yet it was one of the most brazen public taxpayer thefts in U.S. history. Think most citizens know what Q.E. is or stands for? Of course they don't -- some starlette is getting married and released a sex tape, who has time to pay attention to monetary policy that is destroying them?
This will not change. It will not change until either the U.S. defaults on its debt or the market imposes true fear and capitulation, shocking lazy Americans to attention, and then action. Until that day comes, reality TV!
Also, if I didn't have a successful business here in the U.S., I likely would be pulling a Jim Rogers and moving overseas, as I am beyond disgusted with what I see around me. But we have employees, so I'll continue to fork over 45% to Uncle Sam, until I won't.
Sadly, you are right in many respects. Though, the horrible truth is that the rest of the world is just as stupid as we are. I watched a recent video where they go out onto the street and ask random passerbys questions on current events. The usual episodes are filmed here in America. Mostly stupid, uninformed responses. They went to the UK and did the same thing. What did they find? You guessed it. The same run-of-the-mill dumbasses.
UK and US citizens really aren't all that different - though the sheep themselves would deny it vehemently.
I lived in France years ago and the locals knew nothing about their own politics, news etc. Their TV was so awful I couldn't bear to watch so I had nothing to talk to them about at all.
French TV is like radio except you get to see the dipshit talk. If you turn up the sound you can go to the toilet and not worry about missing anything.
Sadly, corporations use a degree as a way to filter out applicants. It's hard to get your foot in the door without one depending on what career path you have chosen. The author doesn't mention it, but the best way to get a degree and not be in debt is to get a company to pay for it. I completed my BS degree without paying a dime for it. My employer paid for it instead! Find a company that welcomes their employees bettering themselves. The time they want you to stay in exchange for the benefit is well worth it in the end.
orly? how did you finish a bachelor of science when they require lab courses - 99% of which are offered only during the work day?
My BS was in Finance. No labs required. Please tell me that you were joking.
Jomama, as Silver clearly stated, they earned a BS degree...no lab work required :-)
who knew finance was a science?
Jomama, finance is not a science, hence the BS designation.
I got a BS in accounting... I think it's sciencish... no less or more than some of the "social sciences"... who cares... it doesn't mean dick anyway... other than a receipt for payment/time served on the education treadmill.
I worked night shift as a machine operator and went to college part-time during the day to earn my degree in Chemistry.
My degree is in computer networking, not biology. What are you talking about? /boggle
Ah-hem, enlisting is an option - or for medical school, going thru the military makes sense.
I'm not sure, but willing to bet, that these schools are inexpensive because they are subsidized by their governments. Aren't we supposed to be against that kind of "socialist/communist" tax payer supported stuff here on ZH?
Fuk hyer edukashun. When everyone has a degree, no one does, and that is where we find ourselves today
Wrong. Only 25% of the US population has "some college." 17% complete 4 year degrees.
It stratifies, but along what dimension?
I joke with my students that all their degree will show is that they are willing to take orders and kiss ass for 4 years. I then let them know that by my logic, I have to be even more subordinated than they are with my Ph.D. They laugh mighty uncomfortably.
I do not "sell" them on college. I challenge it to the extreme. I announce that I know some of them are just there for the student aid and loan checks and that they have no interest in an education. I tell them I know some of them are there because Mom and Dad won't pay the bills if they do not attend. I let them know that there are a few in their midst who "own" their education and know what they want and why. I tell them we are all caught up in a Ponzi scam and that I will try to teach them something regardless of why they are there. I use housing and college costs as a case study to explain what is going on with the economy.
The good news for me is that the upper end of the curve is getting better. The smarter students who would have gone to private schools are enrolling at my public university. Many of them talk about Moms and Dads who just can't afford it anymore and that they will have to make do. I have a secret to share with them. If you want a good education, you can get one most places. If you do your research and actively seek it out, it is there. You can also just "serve your time" take easy classes, make mediocre grades, and get your piece of paper to qualify for the job. Both experiences are there to be had at a public institution. If you are talented and ambitious, you will make it work for you. If you do not have that inner guidance you will fuck up and off everywhere you go, it does not matter if you are in college or not.
I need to stop. I don't think the degrees mean squat. Meanwhile, not everyone has one.
Not only do I stand corrected, but I am now better informed. We need more teachers with your attitude. Thank you.
Came back to soften the post. Hope I was not pissy. You are kind, very civil. Thank you.
I have 2 in community college, one in college and one in med school. Community college is a really good place to figure a few things out, work a job and make some mistakes, at relatively low opportunity cost.
Sure, but how's the football team and fraternity life?
Cheaper to leave your home country and study abroad??? What type of chronic are you smoking and can I please have your dealer's number? With travel, living expenses, and establishing a temporary home in a foreign country, there's no way it's cheaper than going to school domestically. This is one of the most rediculous articles I have ever seen posted on ZH!
You should get out more, overseas that is
Read this and it reminded me of "offworld" from Blade Runner. Oh, yeah, future's so bright, gotta wear welding goggles.
when I started at Carnegie Mellon in 1996 full tuition was $32k and when I graduated in 2000 it had gone up to $45k. My education was 85% paid for with grants but I still left with $20k in loans. I've been paying fo 10 years and still owe $12k. Why? well I graduated in 2000 with no job prospects. Those who graduated in 1999 nearly all had multiple job offers in the $80-100k range and generous signing bonuses like brand new BMWs.
At my career days we only had two corporations show up for my profession, 40 came in 1999. With 45 students in my select class those were not good odds. Only four students graduated with offers and they weren't $75k. Over the next five years the starting salary in my profession dropped in half. It took me ten years to get up to the starting level of those who graduated in the '90s.
Yes most of the graduates of 1999 did not still have jobs in 2001 but they had a job with a real company on their resume and an excuse for being laid off. his gave them an edge in the job market over the recent graduates and te stain of bein a 2000 grad never really wears off. The graduates of the last few years will go through the same thing.
It doesn't matter if a school is the "Harvard" of wherever if you are going for a job in the USA. If it isn't Harvard it doesn't matter. I agree that going overseas will give you a better education but if you go there you should probably stay and get a job with better prospects in that country where the degree means more.
The sad truth of that fact is that it truly means the USA is over. Unless you can engineer a way to fake paper into looking like more paper you have no job prospect here. We no longer produce products of value or thinkers ofreal value to baseline growth. Only the con man with an Ivy League degree has value in America.
not trying to pour salt in your wound, but i've been in biotech for about 15 years, and never really had an issue finding a job unless i wanted to leave my current one sooner than looked good on my resumè.
of course, all of our large scale production jobs are offshored.
education bubble to pop soon.
Add up all the debt from graduates who have a mcjob or worse, no job, and it's just as big as the housing bubble.
More importantly, add up all the debt of educational institutions that require ever expanding numbers of students to service... add up the losses in jobs from the universities... the competition for housing, etc., as college buildings are sold... on down the line. It's a really big number.
Is it me or does anyone else think the author's answer to everything is to leave the USA? Just wonderin...
DaddyO
Better idea; follow Uncle Sam's protocol: DON'T PAY THAT SHIT BACK!
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
I WENT TO A PREMIUM COLLEGE AND I DIDN'T HAVE TO PAY A THING!!
My dad paid for it.
You are a member of the lucky sperm club. Consider yourself one of the fortunate ones...
I'm sorry but I don't understand why people let their kids pay it for themselves.
My kids will get a education. They'll never have to pay for it, but if they want something like a laptop, they'll have to save for it and work for it.
And I expect only the best grades from their school.
But on the other hand, when I went to college in Belgium (one of the best in Europe) It costed about 5000 euro (7500dollar) per year back than and with costs like my student appartment and expenses and stuff was like another 10K.
It wasn't at all as much as in the US.
I thought you were going to say you were black, hispanic, lesbian, a feminist or some other "preferred group" in our non-discrimination discrimination system. As a poor white kid with 6 siblings, I was always surprised that other folks better off than me could find all the help they needed - but none for Mr. Gringo!
There are binders full of grants and scholarships for those folks. If you happen to be a "white" male, you are effed. Never turn down an offer from a cute college professor for coffee either. She'll end up being the dean of the department for the course you're taking, and your work will magically become B material. I'm just saying. It's never happened to me or anything. /cough /cough
At college, we had 2 handyman who repaired stuff and all.
I always talked to them, they where funny guys.
And after about a year, they simply gave me the keys of the archives.
TESTS, SCRIPTS EVERYTHING!! YOU NAME IT!!
I just had to take the A+ scrips for me, my girlfriend, my friends and a few extra that I put up for sale.
And lucky me, my teachers where so lazy that they always gave the same type of exams. I didn't have to learn anything and passed it all on my socks.
So I learned the most important thing in life: KNOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE! And that aren't always the once on top.
To get things done, you need to go to the bottom where the working drones are.
Box-check preferences continue in the corporate world, where the Holy Grail of candidates is a one-legged, black lesbian!
Here's the deal Mr. Black,
When said student returns from their Euro Vacation-College and job prospects don't know dick about your fancy Euro College, you are back to square one, which is living in your parents basement filling out applications for a PhD.
Best Regards,
I Love Cholas
I would say you are wrong. Employers only care about Degrees, not where you get them from.
i love cholas - positive rep for your handle!
But, but, but, look at all the cool partying you can do for $50K of debt:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/29015652/detail.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zd5SnAwC40
No sexual liberty around Europe for that... most of Europe that is >)
Formal education is what you make of it. You can walk in and get 3X the value of what you're paying if you pay attention and learn everything you can.
Problem is, students today don't go to school to learn. They go to be lazy, scrape by, and get a piece of paper that they think entitles them to a life of luxury. Just like anything else, you have to work at education. And if you are willing to read between the lines and ask questions, you can gain a huge advantage. But when you graduate you have to work. Some people just want the easy route and think school will help them avoid putting in effort. They will be paper pushers with numb minds punching the clock. An entreprenuerial minded person can make it without formal education sure, but why learn through your own experience what you can learn from someone else's? Most students don't take advantage of the resources available to them through professors and such. Just the passwords that you get for online research databases is worth a lot, if you use them. You get access to free subscriptions to academic and industry journals, newsletters, free unlimited use of books. Most students hit the keg parties instead of getting value out of their education. Its a rare person who truly uses the experience to their advantage. That doesn't mean education is worthless, it just means that the majority of people waste it. The majority of people also waste gas driving around for no reason, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't pay $5 a gallon for gas if they are going to use it for productive purpose that makes them $100 profit. Education and energy are both inputs that can be wasted, or used for productivity. Which, depends on the person.
The problem with your reasoning, and the inherent problem in the bloated educational system, is that if prospective students were as motivated as you suggest, then they can teach themselves virtually everything and have no need for the college... the availability of information today is completely different than in times past. The entire concept of the way our educational system is run is impractical.
At best, students could get face time for important issues, etc... but this would not remotely necessitate the amount of infrastructure, etc., presently available.
Further, as far as academia for the purpose of research, I think the economic debacle has proven that academia is no different of a whore than the night walkers common in every town... albeit with a few more good teeth.
[insert low growling noise about here]
I don't go after government grants. This hurts my career. The folks who do get status. The thing is, I don't need the money to do what I do. I have been told that if I just re-think it and write it up differently, I can get lots of equipment, employ lots of people. I don't want the hassle. I don't want to be a grant manager, I want to do my own work myself.
People pick their research topics based on what the government is interested in. They fund some areas, not others. Most of my colleagues do not have a problem with this.
Whores indeed.
Agreed with the post. I came to the US from Bulgaria for a graduate degree. You can't put a price on learning English first hand and experiencing a new culture. The problem is I want to go back to Europe now. :)
the best deal is AP Credits. Take a "grade 13" year at another high school (so those other dorks don't think you failed a grade) or CC and load up on AP cred. forget the "glamor colleges" and get a state school college degree and high grades. should only take you 2 years with AP credits. work for a little while and save some money. then go to the best grad school you can get into.
BTW, you should do something until you are 24 before going to grad school. at that point your fin. aid is based on your independant income, not your parents.
I'll one up you and suggest getting your GED at ~16 and beginning college courses immediately... take 3 years to complete it going to summer school... all of the gen ed classes are remedial english and math anymore... given students don't have the requisite math and english skills to even participate in most gen ed classes...
If you have the intellect, there is no reason to waste your time in high school... obviously a social education is the biggest thing to gain in high school, but hopefully at 16, there will have been enough social development to not be prohibited by strange mannerisms.
The only drawback is the possibility of college dicks hitting on your 16 year old daughter... might be a good idea to drop her off and pick her up from classes... of course, she might look like a troll, so in that case, don't worry about it...
Same thing for votech degrees... pound out a GED at 16 and go to your apprenticeship, etc. If child labor laws are going to get in the way, get creative. A kid with 2 years under his belt versus swinging dicks just getting out of highschool isn't a fair competition for a job... or, alternatively, by the time the other kids are getting out of college, your kid can be nearing completion of a doctorate...
college is not difficult... this approach doesn't take a wiz kid.
PS, AP classes require you to get a high enough score on the AP exam to get college credit... easier said than done... the better, more practical way, is to just complete a GED and enroll OR, if allowed, take freshman courses and knock out the first year while still in highschool.
I did just this. Been living on my own since 16 (really more like 14). Had my associates degree at 17. CLEP (College Level Examination Program) got me out of college fast (27 hours worth). Attended summer, boom, done. My masters was fast too, only took me a year, 12 hours, 12 hours, 12 over the summer.
Ph.D. was another matter. I was too immature when I got there, I was there for the wrong reasons. Should have had it at 25, got it at 28 instead. Had to get out in the real world for a while to see what was what.
That was at a time also when a bachelor's degree wasn't merely an extension of high school, except with no dress code and where students more openly fuck teachers.
I don't even think the CLEP test is available anymore at many places... they want the extra tuition.
I always joked during law school that I would be happy to write them a check for the remainder of my sentence if they would just cut me a diploma... at a certain point, early on, it becomes practically impossible to fail out... if this is the only level to which I am supposed to achieve, then I already did that after about the first year... my last semester I could have "failed" every course and still graduated... total joke... but yet I had to stay anyway.
Established professionals are so scared of competition they'll do anything to impose barriers to entry to their respective professions... it's really what the government is in a nutshell... and the ultimate paradox of capitalism.
The UCs here in CALI have a program ("TAG") where you take the GE stuff at CC and you are guaranteed transfer to a UC if you follow the courses outlined. This is a good deal IMO if money is an issue.
Excellent Article and great point.
Head north...
Two degrees from schools, ranked in the top 100 US Universities (US World Report) and no debt.
B.S.E.E. from Northeastern University on their co-op work study program .......takes 5 years, year round, but graduated with 4 year enginering degree, 2 years of related experience and no debt ($ earned on co-op paid everything).
Later, M.B.A. from Boston University.......took 4 years nights (vs. 2 years days), but same professors, program and paid by employer tuition reimbursement.
Hah, that's funny. Every single university in the U.S. thinks they're "one of the top 100". If your hiring manager doesn't know where Northeastern University is (I haven't the foggiest), he/she won't be impressed. I concede Boston University as top 100 though.
Here is the college money trap and those who profit. It will get paid back....with a guaranteed profit loop.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/student-loan-sch...
Universtiy of Phoenix, bitches.
Hm,
I am an American expat living in German speaking regions of Europe. Its true about credit resets here. Also, university is much less expensive. There are some down sides however, particularly at the graduate level. If you are interested in more information, contact me privately.
winter is coming
Or you could just go to a school in your state (avoid out-of-state tuition racket) and pay off your loans sooner.
I'm sure District University of Bogotá looks really impressive on the ole resume. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU
I didn't realize that overseas colleges were so much cheaper for international students.
Those numbers are for international students, right?
yes, education is ridiculously over priced; one must be focused, hard working and creative to succeed today: i.e. buy forclosed homes in desirable areas on county court steps (Ventura county, CA), cosmetically improve them (new carpet, paint, fixtures, etc) and flip them for $25k-$40k profit each! There are guys making this amount of money monthly and laughing all the way to the bank! Of course don't expect much help from most of them as "greed is their god".
the objective of a degree is to show your future employer that you can be taught....otherwise, it's pretty useless. I graduated with cockheads who did more fucking than learning during uni and graduated with more diseases than credits but still got a job and bragged about it.
Regards
Dr. Buell Schitter M.Eng, HEPB, HIV
If you can afford to go to College, then you really don't need to go.
Just remember to file your US tax return every year from abroad !
No way to avoid that if your a resident or citizen they have a claim
on your world-wide income forever....
The systems of higher education worldwide are antiquated beasts that have, at this point, little to do with education and a lot to do with preservation of the status quo. A sabbatical in Switzerland is still a sabbatical.
don’t simply follow the same path that everyone else is taking.
The path everyone else is taking, 4 yrs college, bachelor degree, works well in a robust growing economy where demand for degreed people exceeds supply.
But we've been in a shrinking economy 10 yrs now. Sure, they cook GDP numbers to make it look like the economy is growing, but it's really been shrinking all this time, slowly reducing demand for those degreed people.
Add to that companies reducing staff to cut costs, and demand drops off even more.
Add to that companies bringing in lower pay foreign workers, and demand drops off even more.
Add to that companies moving operations overseas, and demand drops off even more.
I saw this trend back in the '90s when companies started bringing in foreign I.T. people replacing American I.T. people. Same degree, same skills, but lower pay. That's when I.T. salaries started leveling off then dropping when adjusted for inflation.
In 2000 I was making slightly less than 1990, adjusted for inflation. And I was 2 levels higher, systems analyst. After 2000 when Y2K changes were done and companies laid off boatloads of programmers salaries really dropped.
That's when I saw the handwriting on the wall. And I got out. Started my own business. Not anywhere near I.T. Completely different area. Sure I went thru a period of low income. But I'm better off now.
Along the way the money-hungry wife left. She was in it for the money. Glad I discoverd that. A blessing I hadn't anticipated.
And my children have their own business. They didn't go to college. They watched me start a business and developed the confidence to start their own business.
When their friends were in college racking up debt, they were out making money. Now they're way better off than their friends with those degrees wondering when their job is going to end.
The problem is that today's colleges are teaching yesterday's skillsets. Today's colledge education has been the hamster wheel that is exclusivlely designed for the braindead.
thanks for the stories geezer. guess you're not so cranky after all.
Doesn't anyone work/study anymore? Or is the current crop of "students" too fragile?
I am a professor in one of the leading US private Universities and sure our fees are pretty high. There are various forms of financial help to the students partially based on merit considerations. I wonder, though, if the quality of education that we provide is so low,
why we have kids from all over the world coming to get their undergraduate education with us? And typically parents are responsible for all expenses in case of overseas students.
Let me repeat once again: this SB is absolute fraud with the sole goal to rip off the sheeple.
They're coming to fill the financial gap left by domestic persons who can no longer afford to go... You are presently taking advantage of dollar depreciation, however I wouldn't count on the rest of the world knocking on your door in perpetuity. Don't feel important either... virtually any generic U.S. degree is seen as good... I went to a shit ass state school that was filled with foreigners (from dozens of countries)... every one of them said they were here because any U.S. degree is good... their respective employers have no idea what difference there is between various U.S. universities... they just needed one in the U.S.
Don't worry though, I'm sure no one will hold it against you that those foreign students go back to their respective countries to ensure that jobs never come back here...
PS, it isn't that the quality of education you provide is low, per se, but whether or not the quality of education that you provide is worth the cost, all things considered.
Regarding your PS, you know it is a golbal market and cost versus quality is determined by market considerations. When people say
that the matket here in US is distorted by government student loans, they are correct. But professors in places like Switzerland or Singapore are among the highest paid in the world and the low tuitions over there are , in the end of the day, due to government subsidies. I do not feel important, as you say, but I am pretty confident that we are quite competitive in the global educational market and this is determined most and formost by quality of professors which in turn determined by conditions the University provide which in turn depend on tuition fees in case of private schools.
People like SB like to talk about the value they add. Well, do not forget that the progress in technology which in the end of the day
determines the progress of civilization is mostly due to the generations of "lazy" University professors not due to the charlatans like SB.
I knew a guy who went to an Indian medical school back in 2001. He told me his entire dentist education only set him back for about $2000 for about six years schooling over there. When he came back, he studied on his own for his license exam and passed it.
i've always wanted to know how to operate a lathe and milling machine....those will be good skills to know in the not too distant future. when a certain skill set becomes undesirable, the old-timers that know it die off and there is no new blood to handle to work. it's the new black.
i enrolled in woodworking classes so i can learn to make guitars
i've always wanted to know how to operate a lathe and milling machine...
Let me give you a little truism: If you really want to learn it, you'll lean it on your own without going to school.
Most any skillset can be learned and mastered on your own with no schooling. The only thing you need is a strong desire to learn it. A really strong desire.
After leaving I.T. and starting my own business I became very interested in picking up some machinist skills. A customer had a small machine shop. I worked a deal where I could use his lathe & mill on weekends when the shop was closed. It allowed me to go at a slow pace where I could study how the machine behaves, think about what I was doing, try different things, see what works better, learn proper safety practices, etc.
After a while I got pretty good at it. Even did a few small jobs for him when he got behind, and they passed inspection fine, within tolerances (typically +/- .003"). I got good enough on his lathe I could hold +/- .001 across an entire cut, and the cut shined like a mirror because I knew what cutting tool to use, how to set it, what speed to run at, ect. I can scope in a 4 piont chuck to .001 or dead on .000. That's pretty damn good.
Now whenever I need some machine work done I head over there and do it myself. I know his equipment, how accurate it is, where I need to compensate for slack, pushoff, etc, to hold tolerance, I know his tooling, what works best for this, what works best for that, etc.
Impressive.
I had a desire to learn about computer hardware and to build PCs, etc... well, as a kid, there isn't much way to do that... with child labor laws, etc. (this was pre-youtube). So, I saved up the ol' allowance, yard mowing money, etc. and bought a whole bunch of components...
If you want to learn how to put a computer together... the best way is to sink all your money into components and I promise you the thing will get built.
Ultimately, this is the paradox of the educational infrastructure... if people really, really desire to learn... they're probably their own best teachers and can do so without the cost and hassle of formal education... In short, the educational system is solely designed for people who don't really care to learn... hence the problem when you dangle free money in front of people to go (and for their "living" expenses). The system snowballs and forces many of those who would do fine learning on their own to play the game... the stench of moral hazard clings to most everyone.
I looked through all the posts and found one that mentioned the military. Like that poster my cousin joined the Navy, hated it but got outstanding technical training that enabled him to make a very nice salary. My oldest daughter is a West Point graduate, my youngest had a basketball scholarship. I have two nephews with college paid by the Air National Guard and their brother has an ROTC scholarship. Of the five, four either have or are completing science degrees. The military can be tough (think Iraq, Afghanistan, etc) but is a feasible alternative to life long college indebtedness.
The military is a great option for people out of high school who dont know what they want to do. You can get a lot of money to go to school later if you choose. You dont have to slog through the mud, but you probably should so you lose your fear of being shot at. Once you can think clearly and calmly under fire you have gained a valuable attitude.
I think we lose more military in automobile accidents than to combat these last few years
Of course, when you're relying upon uncle sam's promise to pay you multiple years down the road and faith is lost in uncle sam's ability to pay... probably not much incentive.
Factor in the opportunity costs for places that have state lotteries for example, and your incentive is thrown out the window if you're just doing it to go to college.
Now, it's a totally different ballgame if you're going to get on the job training so to speak out of your time served... e.g. mechanic, pilot, etc. Tack on years of experience and a "vet" on the ol' resume and you're a shoe in for most positions against similar folks post service. Although, the armed forces are running quite a few people through... and, just like all printing presses, an "army diploma" is subject to dilution.
I just did a tour recruiting kids for med school, dental school, etc. for the Navy. The real blame lies with the PARENTS. These kids, despite having high gpa's and test scores, are CLUELESS about loans, and exponential interest on those loans, how much they will make (AFTER TAXES) when they get their first job that doesn't involve serving food or coffee. They truly don't give a fuck, until that is, they graduate. Then the first words out of their mouth are "does the Navy pay off student loans?". The answer is "no". Parents----WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? I know you want to say "yes" all the fucking time to junior or little miss thing, but please, act like an ADULT and explain debt servitude to them. And taxes. And life. Do your fucking job!!!!! And the schools are just banks in disguise, raping their own students with high-interest loans, credit card kickbacks, etc. etc. FYI, once you get into the student loan scam, you are FUCKED if you miss one payment. They will get their money from you NO MATTER WHAT. Along with massive interest, penalties and fees. I took the time to write all this shit. I hope it prevents one person from getting into a financial shit storm. But based on my experience, I doubt it.
As a doctor I resent your attitude.
There are plenty of programs that will pay off all your student loans if you serve four years in a rural area as a doctor or dentist. The salary is better and lifestyle more family oriented than the military. No wonder the military always has a chronic doctor shortage.
And fuck you too.
Major, USAR
nine years
Guys go to south america.
The middle class is very europeanized, bidets and espresso even 20 years ago. I was the primitive who had never seen those before. I thought a bidet was a urinal and pissed in it.
These countries are all high growth and still welcome and love americans. You dont need to speak spanish but if you put in two hours per day you will be fluent in a year.
You can date chicks ten times hotter and more sexual than you can get in the usa.
These countries are all capital starved and a few dollars goes a long way toward setting up a small business. In growing economies with relatively younger populations you can hardly go wrong no matter what business you set up.
Dont look at your income in dollars. For half the income you can live twice as well, maids, hot chicks, a decent car, and cheap food and drink.
Ive been there. If I had to do it all over again I would marry a south american lady.
Go now! Dont look back! Go south, young man!
You had me hot & boathered until you said :marry: ')
You dont have to marry one, but I guarantee eventually you will want to!
Christ! I want to right NOW! Sounds frickin GREAT! How to sell that to the wife though?
Perhaps the South American men will be equally appealing to her...
I know I'd like you if I met you!! Go Hulk!
where is a good place to go in south am?
5 years of trade school and apprenticeship, 10 years of journeyman exp, 2 years of community college. Now the local has 30% unemployment and the pension is in critical status those that can't suck cock or kiss ass are sitting at home so needless to say that's where im at. Me at most of my friends are 2-3 years with no job, many of us including me have expired unemployment. I get by doing odd jobs and the thought of going back to school to "get back into the system" and then get fucked again is almost beyond comprehension. Never again. Got my shit paid down, my main goal is to keep what bills I have paid and fuck everyone else. And should they call for my help........they don't deserve my labor. Get a fucking mexican and be happy. That's what you wanted all along anyhow. I have learned a new way of life and it's much better. I struggled for a long time trying to get more and more and finally realized it was better and much easier to downsize and get by on less. That also came as a surprise because now I go thru periods when I have an 'excess' and that certainly never happened when I had a $40hr job and 7 vehicles and vacation property. I have more fun now than I ever had, in fact it's like being back in high school sometimes. Fuck'em.....it's better this way.
My son just moved to Europe for graduate studies. His tuition is appx $11,000 annually. Wish the Euro would tank! ;)
My daughter plans to attend law skool in London.
Living through a currency devaluation and how to cope
I was managing an American subsidiary of a successful large US Company in Mexico. It had been a financial turnaround for our team. Cash flow had accumulated in our bank in Mexico and corporate didn’t want the money repatriated to the US. Although we had already paid a 35% income tax to the Mexican government, we would have to pay an additional 30% exit tax to repatriate the money. In addition, we would have to pay high fees for the peso/dollar exchange, in order to make the transfer. The company wanted to expand our successful business and so we decided to keep the money in Mexican pesos to be used for further expansion.
One morning, as my wife and I were on a trip driving on the highway, we heard a national message from the President of Mexico in 1976, Luis Echevarria, one of the most corrupt presidents in Mexican history. “It is a lie that we are going to devalue the peso,” he said.
Read more
http://lonerangersilver.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/living-through-a-curren...
Think about a career overseas after your degree. Go where the work is.
btw you guys that think the trades are the way to go..........you don't know what you're talking about it. I know nonunion shops that can't even get work. Sure someones hvac is going to need repair........but there's 300 guys sitting at home that can do the job. In my mind that's as bad as plopping down $15k to go to one of those 6 month super computer schools to get one of those $60k jobs in 6 months when your town has an IT support group on every street corner with guys that have a decade or more exp on you.
Bottom line.........there's an abundance of labor. It's also a viscious circle, since i've worked in the trades for years I now get many side jobs on my own. Of course there not really 'side jobs' anymore. This takes away from companies. I also work only for cash and don't pay tax. I fully support the black economy and the downfall of our gov't as we know it.
And before you start bitching about that.......start with the source of the problem that looks to our gov't and our bought off politicians. I didn't ask to get sat at home, have my pension go bust and basically be thrown to the fucking wolves. I'm sure politicians would hope the likes of me would just go off to the countryside and die but I don't think so. You made this fucking mess.......and this is what you motherfuckers get.
Trades work great if you can work for yourself and own your own shop.
don't forget Max Planck Institutes in germany they have very good research facilities for Science and Engineering.
junior undergrad here that currently attends a state school majoring in finance.
Honestly...the education system is fuckin wack. They raise tuition because CA is bankrupt and the school still looks like shit, with shitty teachers..The only interesting part of finance is my LAST year as a student...
My side job is trading in the daytime and school at night. =]
The real education is at the library...where a bunch of books on history of markets, technical analysis, everything is there....but its so hard to keep up with school reading and research!!!
ANYWAYS, plan is to get my degree and book it to SINGAPORE and trade, bitches!
"Open Source Education"
You forget we have State Univerisites that are pretty cheap and excellent...still better then 99.9% of the overseas schools.
However, if you have a lazy student, it does not matter whether they are in Zurich or in New York at City College....they will not succeed.
Medical Office Technician is the new Licensed Practical Nurse
Nurse (2 years) is the new therapist/social worker (god knows how many years)
Depends on location... here I think counselors are 3 years masters program (2 years primary course work + 1 year practicum/course work + comps) and then 3,000 hours of supervision (takes on average 3-4 years from graduation and you often have to pay a supervisor). Social workers have 1 less year of school/practicum and 1000-1500 hours of supervision... and get to bill more insurance than counselors...
Definitely some kinks need to get worked out in that dynamic... but, as I understand it, it is primarily a state to state matter.
One trillion dollars of student loan debt.
One trillion dollars converted to SLABS
25% and climbing default rates with a kick-the-can mentality in charge.
BOOM!
@ rsnoble, I am a tradesman also, and I got laid off 18 months ago. I consider myself fortunate because of the considerable skills I attained as a union carpenter for the last 34 years. Being debt free, and a homeowner, I had the luxury of pursuing my passion, libertarian politics. So, I decided to run for Alderman in my northern Illinois community of 90,000, for the third time in 16 years, and won by 6 votes. It doesn't pay but less than a third of what I used to make, but now my voice has power. You sound like a very intelligent man, why don't you consider doing the same? It can be a very gratifying job, at times. I can tell the psychopaths to f... themselves whenever I want without any fear of retribution because I work full time for the good, hard working people of my ward, who just want to live in peace and are tired of the low lifes that live among us. Think about it. I am 57 and I fear no one, even though I live in the last state in the union without conceal/carry, castle doctrine law. The NRA is currently suing my state to right this wrong. May God bless
@ those who mentioned free school lunches: My school district, in northern Illinois, of 16,000 students now provides "free" breakfast and lunch for all. I have been reading zh since April, 2010, and I am grateful for the economic education gained from this association. I regularly send zh articles to my colleagues on our city council. Long live zerohedge, thank you
Consider China for your kid's education. Very high fees for the best universities, but low cost of living.
The Confucius institute is pretty generous with scholarships.
And the experience of a year or so post-grad in China will be very helpful in the job market.
(daughter in Erasmus University and son in Beijing)
Or just go to Harvard with student loans and once hyperinflation kicks in pay them off all for the price of a piece of bread. Sounds like a plan to me!
I was lucky, parents paid for college. I paid for med school with loans, but paid it back pretty quickly. If I was in college now, I would be making damn sure I finished with some skills that are actually in demand. The days of coming out with a BA degree and walking into investment banking with a 6 figure salary are long gone. Attending University abroad sounds like a good idea. Maybe pick up a language while you are there as well. That would definetely set you apart from the field. You don't have to outrun the bear, just outrun everybody else.
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