Guest Post: Boomers - Are Going To Be A Real Drag

Tyler Durden's picture

From Lance Roberts of StreetTalk Advisors

Boomers - Are Going To Be A Real Drag

japan-experience-4-082311Recently the San Francisco Federal Reserve Board released a study on the aging "Baby Boom" population and the effects of the demographic pull on stock valuations as these "boomers" move en mass into retirement.  From the report: "The baby boom generation born between 1946 and 1964 has had a large impact on the U.S. economy and will continue to do so as baby boomers gradually phase from work into retirement over the next two decades. To finance retirement, they are likely to sell off acquired assets, especially risky equities. A looming concern is that this massive sell-off might depress equity values."   [The report isn't long and a good read.]

This is something that we have discussed previously, however, the report points out the obvious concern; "Many baby boomers have already diversified their asset portfolios in preparation for retirement. Still, it is disconcerting that the retirement of the baby boom generation, which has long been expected to place downward pressure on U.S. equity values, is beginning in earnest just as the stock market is recovering from the recent financial crisis, potentially slowing down the pace of that recovery."

There were several very interesting implications in the report such as:

  • US equity values (in terms of P/E ratios) have been closely tied to demographic trends over the last 50 years.
  • The baby boom generation has had a large impact on the U.S. economy as they saved and invested; now they will have the reverse effect as they become net liquidators of assets - particularly risk related assets (ie. stocks).
  • These demographic shifts may present headwinds for the stock markets recovery from the financial crisis
  • Due to these demands on assets "real stock prices" may not recover to their 2010 level until 2027.

The last point was the most startling. Most analysts and economists believe it to be a theoretical impossibility for the economy, and by default the markets, to remain stagnant.  However, the extent to which the aging of the U.S. population creates headwinds for both the economy and the stock market is something that you can see by taking a retrospective look at Japan.

The Fed report looked only at the middle-aged (40-49) and old aged (60-69) groups.  However, I think the issues are more encompassing than just two groups.  If we think about the current employment levels relative to the population as a whole we can began to understand this is a larger problem.  Assuming that the "baby boomer" generation will begin to liquidate assets as they move into retirement in order to fund living expenses; this is turn potentially leads to lower economic growth.  Therefore, if the economy is growing at lower rates then we have to further assume that we will maintain higher levels of unemployment.  These assumptions imply that not only will the two age groups identified by the Fed begin withdrawing assets; but that a much larger percentage of the entire population will be saving and investing less. 

The problem that these assumptions impose is that savings are required for productive future economic investment.  When Japan entered into their post crisis decline they had very high personal savings rates which initially sustained their economic system.  Unfortunately, the U.S. does not have the luxury of high savings rates as detailed by the following statistics in our recent post "Beware Of Long Term Investing"

"Let's consider the following facts in regards to the average American worker:

  • 56% of the average workers in America today have less than one years salary saved with less than $25,000.
  • 76% have less than $100,000; and
  • 90% have less than $250,000 saved.

If we assume that the average retired couple will need $40,000 (the average annual salary) in income to live through their "golden years," they will need roughly $1 million dollars generating 4% a year.  Therefore, 90% of American workers today have a problem.

However, what about those already retired?   Given the boom years of the 80's and 90's that group of baby boomers should be better off, right?  Not really.

  • 54% have less than $25,000
  • 71% have less than $100,000; and
  • 83% have less than $250,000."

Low personal savings rates do not leave individuals much wiggle room in an economy where incomes are under pressure due to a large unemployed labor pool.  The chart above shows the strong statistical evidence concerning the historical relationship between U.S. employment and equity markets.  The dotted lines represent the likely path of both employment to total population and the stock market into 2020 assuming the migration of "boomers" into retirement. 

The implications of declining employment to population due to the demographic shift potentially shake the foundations of conventional investing wisdom which assumes that markets always rise over time.  The potential impact of these demographic shifts in the U.S. parallel closely with the Japanese economy since their financial crisis took hold almost 30 years ago. 

japanese-experience-4-082311The Japanese Experience

In response to their own real estate/financial crisis, Japan implemented many of the same economic policies that are implemented in the U.S. currently.  The result of those policies, combined with an aging population, has plagued Japan with a slow growth economy and struggling financial markets. 

The Fed report points to this correlation between the financial markets and these demographic shifts. 

"Since an individual's financial needs and attitudes toward risk change over the life cycle, the aging of the baby boomers and the broader shift of age distribution in the population should have implications for capital markets (Abel 2001, 2003; Brooks 2002). Indeed, some studies attribute the sustained asset market booms in the 1980s and 1990s to the fact that baby boomers were entering their middle ages, the prime period for accumulating financial assets (Bakshi and Chen 1994)."

However, one of the key arguments against the U.S. being like Japan has been the strength of employment.  While the U.S. may not have as severe of an aging gap between generations; a quick comparison between employment to population ratios leaves little question. 

Since both countries face similar hurdles of overburdened social welfare programs, a weak economy and struggling financial markets; sustained levels of high unemployment drag on economic growth.  This in turn reduces assets that would potentially be invested back into the system.

We can look at Japanese stock market set against the S&P 500, advanced 10 years to align time frames, in order to see the impact of demographic trends on stock prices.   The long term trend of the Nikkei continues to be negative as Japan has followed its path of long term economic decline which has impacted employment levels relative to their total population.

japan-experience-5-082311Beginning In 1980, the U.S. has similarly been in a slow degradation of economic growth.  As debt levels have increased to sustain a higher standard of living; savings rates have fallen which has detracted from productive investment. 

Furthermore, the shift from a production and manufacturing base to a service based economy has further impeded growth by shifting invested dollars into areas with a lower economic "multiplier" effect.

We outlined this in greater detail in "The Breaking Point".

The impact of these shifts almost 30 years ago in the U.S. have just now started to be realized with the bursting of the financial/credit bubble in 2008.  With consumers now entrenched in a "balance sheet" recession, the process of deleveraging an entire economic system is a process that occurs over a decade or more.  This creates a vicious feedback loop as consumers re-task spending to pay down debt.  Reduced expenditures puts businesses in a defensive position which respond by reducing hiring and increasing cost cutting (ie. layoffs) measures to maintain profitability.  With higher unemployment comes a competitive available labor pool which lowers wages and salaries.  Lower wages decreases the ability for consumers to expend discretionary income which creates lower final demand on businesses.  This cycle, once entrenched, is extremely difficult to break.  This is the reason why the various stimulus programs have failed to create any lasting economic growth.

Many may scoff at the Fed's report that stock prices will not recover to their 2010 highs until 2027.  The migration of "baby boomers" into retirement, combined with sustained high unemployment, low savings rates and a weak economy, does not bode well for strong financial markets into the future.  While there are many hopes that the economy will recover in spite of the abundance of factors building against it; the reality is that we may be dealing with the "Japanese Experience".

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curbyourrisk's picture

Go read the "FOURTH TURNING"  and you will COMPLETELY understand why this is true in more ways than what is talked about above....




topcallingtroll's picture

yeah we  certainly have a greedy generation bent on destroying our country as long as they get their medicare and social security checks, and a later generation too lazy to do anything about it.  The millenials will pick up the pieces.  Histroy will judge the boomers really harshly for destroying the country and pretending that enron style accounting os good enough for government purposes.

AldousHuxley's picture

Boomers  = last recipient of economic ponzi scam benefits

Millenials = trying to build up a pyramid upside down


US follows Japan demographically and economically 15 years behind. In Japan you have college grads doing "internship" for 10 years and retirees working at McDonald's after 65.


Ready to work till you drop.


JohnFrodo's picture


Bicycle Repairman's picture

If the FED keeps supporting stocks like they have since 1987, then it won't matter what the boomers do.  Until then keep paying your FICA taxes or Lord knows what those crazy boomers might do!!!!!!

El Viejo's picture

My mother worked till she was 80 and would have continued, but the store where she was working went under.

Look: 70% of the national debt is held by Americans and American pension funds. Look on the bright side. As the boomers cash in their savings the national debt will go down but the price we pay will be a lackluster Japanese style economy.


sun tzu's picture

That debt has to be rolled over as long as we are running a deficit

blingblingbert's picture

Avoiding the rat race is the name of the game. Ladies and Gentlemen, be the deal maker not the deal maker's employee.

narnia's picture

the people who are receiving social security & medicare benefits now at least contributed a small fraction of the value of the benefits to the system.  that's more than you can say for the first 18 years of recipients, who received supposed "insurance" benefits while paying nothing.

we are staring at the end game of an unsustainable and poorly administered "new deal" + uncontrolled militarism.  the biggest failure of the last generation was doing nothing to stop it, and punting it to the people who they have relied on to perpetuate it.

make no mistake, the next generation will walk away from the taxation required for these government promises.  it will happen voluntarily or involuntarily- the system will implode in an effort to print our way through it.

WestVillageIdiot's picture

And look at that, the stock market pushing right back up at the end of the day.  The wall of worry is just a speed bump for the jeniuses of Broad Street. 

And gold is going straight up as well.  Good for gold.  Fuck Wall Street. 

rocker's picture

The biggest problem is the Banksters who manipulated laws and ethics to pad their own Wallets.

(Think Goldman's Hank Paulson, Neel kashkari and Lloyd Blankfien). The elite banksters keep getting bailed out. The problem is generation XYZ can't afford to bail them out. The jobs are not their to do it.   


While the boomer gerneration will be a drag, it is so because they are done making things and Retiring.  While their jobs are gone because of greedy corportions who shipped them overseas to third world wages.  There are no jobs for the boomer's kids generation.

Hence, We are "Worse than Japan Now".

ParisianThinker's picture

"The Retirement Myth: What You Must Know Now to Prosper in the Coming Meltdown of Job Security, Pension Plans, Social Security, the Stock Market"

This book was printed in April 1995, the year of the formation of the WTO (World Trade Organization).

Author, Craig S. Karpel laid out the future clearly for anyone who could read English.

Why get angry? These decisions are only in the hands of the 1% who own 80% of the world. They don't care about you. You do not matter. Get over it and make your own plan. Stop crying.

Learn. Acquire knowledge, skills, money and contacts. 

AldousHuxley's picture

Few positives for US

  1. US can use military might to extract natural resources out of middle east (petrodollar advantage)
  2. US has more natural resources within her soverign property. Buffett bought railroad for America's coal not for Americans.
  3. US can sell off military assets and technology for last resort export. "Aerospace" is one of top US exports
  4. US has imported slaves from Mexico aka. illegal immigrants
  5. US allows gun ownership to keep elites in check. "street justice"


RiverRoad's picture

The Banksters ALWAYS knew this day was coming, that's why they set up the game and then grabbed all the chips off the table before the Boomers could.

malek's picture

And before the usual suspects come complaining about the Millenials not looking so great either nowadays: The Millenials will become the hero generation not because they wanted to, but because they are the ones who will HAVE TO sort things out and pick up the pieces. And they will grow into that role. You can already see the present and increasing disillusionment and discontent in that generation now.

WestVillageIdiot's picture

We really think the hip-hopping, pierced eyebrow millenials will pull back on the stick and save the day?  No fucking way.  They will just pick each other's bones after the plain has crashed.  Welcome to "Alive", this time it is not a movie but an economy.  They will make the Donner Party look civilized. 

lasvegaspersona's picture


the dollars goes way down

jobs return to the new America, a nice stable 2.5 (slightly better than third) world country with a great history.

It will be a fine place to visit and enjoy the scenery, the wines of California and historical sights.

Those with money from other countries will enjoy the incredible prices and those with gold will buy nice chunks of it (also at incredible prices).

We are headed for a transition, probably hyperinflation so don't get twisted about the boomers getting theirs. I'm guessing no one gets much of anything....sorry...the real worth of things has already been spent...just paper left. just paper...

smore's picture

That's the best case scenario!  1 chance in 100.  Not good odds.  You could be right, but prepare to lose.

johnnynaps's picture

Yep. And that is a testament as to how self-absorbed the boomers truly are. They only care about themselves, not their children.

smore's picture

Yep Johnny, they shouldn't have bothered with the children. 

If they'd kept the money they spent on you and bought gold instead, they'd be laughing now.  Fools.

TheAntiGov's picture

Blame the government not your parents/grandparents. They allowed corporations to outsource our jobs and ILLEGAL aliens to flood in, undercut wages, and take what jobs are left. MADE banks to give them home loans. There entitled to social security, welfare, housing, medical, food stamps and college. Now go get your fu*kin shine box you snivilin brat!!!!

malek's picture

Which part of my "grow into it" did you not understand? And who did crash the plane? BTW the "make them feel guilty" approach will stop working on the Millenials at some point... you better prepare accordingly.

sun tzu's picture

You obviously don't know any young people today. They know nothing about hardship and sacrifice. Roughing it to them is going a day without their iphones and facebook. The country will collapse

SilverDosed's picture

You obviously dont know any young people today. I have neither an iphone or facebook, seems like the boomers are the ones fascinated with iphones and other "cool" but extremely outdated technology. If we seem lazy its because we're not about to pick up this debt burden your fat-bloated generation left us.

Signed, under 30 with more real assets (PM's) than most of you all while being forced to pay for your SS and Medicare BS, paying exponentially more in education costs, and working my ass off from work and from home. All your worthless generation does is push papers around and export jobs overseas, you produce nothing, servicing each other doesnt create real wealth, it only produces more debt. Please kindly fuck off.

sun tzu's picture

I'm 37 so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about "your generation". I know teens and college age kids today and they are a bunch of pussies. Tell me what the fuck you do for a living, dig ditches?

SilverDosed's picture

Lulz, I'm sure you learned plenty about hardship and sacrifice growing up in the 80's. Sorry everyone you know are "pussies" and what I do for a living is none of your business. Thanks for the junk though, hope it made you feel better.

out on an island's picture

Yeah dude, you might not be connected with today's youth, they're all pussies when it comes time to really work.  Lolcats, facebook, 5 second attention span and my god, the nonstop bitching and whining about how hard they have to work all the time - the ratio of dead weight pussy to productive worker has increased with each successive generation for a while now.

soccerballtux's picture

why do the old folk blame us? It's their own damn fault they raised us so poorly. Shoulda tried harder if they wanted someone to pave their retirement with gold.

Gavrikon's picture

Because too many of us baby boomers are ex-hippy faggots.  Talking about my generation . . .  How we fucked up everything our parents sacrificed to give us through cultural marxism, egalitarianism, was on poverty, war on drugs, and most of all, wars on people who were no threat to us, while ignoring the massive invasion of third world parasites.  Billy Joel wrote our anthem, "My Life."  Fuck.  Just fucking, fuckity, FUCK!!!

lemonobrien's picture

I live in san fran; work in the mission; hipster-central; when i see a young tard; i wanna drop them and put my dick in their mouth cause nothing they do is original; just copying shit from the past; not even their music is good; lady ga ga? 

Gavrikon's picture

You are right about the music.  Damn, when was the last time you heard anything recent thqt was wroth listening to?

sun tzu's picture

I grew up in the wards in Houston. Came over as a refugee from a war torn country. My clothes came from charities and I was working after school when I was 10 years old. By the time I was 15, I spent my summers unloading trucks and mowing lawns for lunch money. I know a little bit about hardship and sacrifice. What the fuck did you do, pussy?

lemonobrien's picture

my father is a drug addict, and use to beat the shit out of my mother; my first memory was me throwing a knife at him trying to get him off my mom; i missed, it stuck in the wall. i was 4. by the time i was 8, i was beating the chinks to the aluminum cans in garbage dumpsters; i made about $35 a month; which was stolen by my father on regular basis. my mother divorced my father at the age of 12, and i livewd with him; he was never my real father though; he adopted me; and use to beat the shit out of me. at the age of 17 he kicked me out and i lived on the streets. that was only the begining. the difference between my generation and yours. is, we were unwanted by the baby boomers, we were their mistakes; you, the millinal generation were their pride and joy. any way, that was a long time ago and i'm grateful for the experience cause i learned shit before most, and do better than most because of it. You learn a lot from addicts.

DosZap's picture

lemonobrien,@ 22:00,

Pls do not lump all Boomer's in one camp,many more DO care than do not.........I know.

I can relate to what you went through, and I am sorry for you,went through a similar situation as a kid myself,but not to the degree you have.

But it was not healthy, and it caused me a lot of lost time, and time forgiving, but never forgetting.

But sounds like your on the right track, and if your here, you will learn a lot. Life after we reach adulthood is what WE make it, not someone can choose to grow, or stay bitter, and be miserable for life,or choose life and live it as best you can.

No matter how bad we have had it, there are always someone else who had it far worse.

Helps to remember that, keeps one focused. Look forward, not backward.......................what's done is done, what you do from today forward is what counts.

ThePiousPriest's picture

Born in the late 80's hence, member of the Milennial Generation. Not all of us are raving about Snooki and how The Kardashisans are the embodiment of American Entertainment. It kinda seems like this is another variant of "Back in my day, we had to walk 15 miles just to do this". Generational Envy anyone? While I do agree that many in my generation are quite ignorant, there are a few of us that are pushing hard to wake our contemporaries up. I'm barely into my 20's and I am starting to purchase silver (just got 3 oz in today). I'm planning on taking a portion of my check I receive every two weeks to purchase silver along with whatever necessities that are necessary to endure the massive collapse. While my education is more general than specific (history), my career field focuses on IT.

Have faith, as the youth are flocking to Free Market candidates such as Ron Paul. It isn't because we "want to get high". It's because we are tired of the constant police state watching over us, defending the entrenched interests of the corporate banksters, and watching our friends die just so the politicians can look tough and act like they defended freedom while destroying it at home. When we start to realize that the awards and acolades given to our generation to make us feel special, when we realize that the great future they sold us on was a bag of lies to preserve the status quo based upon lies, we will make changes. I'm telling everyone I know about Zero Hedge, and while I may not know all the terminology used on this blog (I'm trying to learn as much as I can everyday), I know this is where I need to be when TPTB are revelead to have no clothes. 

smore's picture

OK, PiousPriest, umm, funky name.  You get it.  Great. Spread the word.  But do you acknowledge the problems that your generation has in overcoming the deluge of toxic corporate garbage that you have grown up in? 

You could say that is the "fault" of older people, but that would be to equate "corporations"/"banksters" with older people, which would be even less accurate than equating "corporately-warped young people" with all young people.

No one in my generation (I'm 50) has the slightest envy of your generation, believe me.  Pity, yes.  Sorrow.  Regret.  But not envy. You are going to have a very hard time, and you don't realize it yet.  Best of luck. 

It's TEOTWAWKI.  It had to be some generation. It's yours.


smore's picture

It's common knowledge you are right, Sun Tsu.  What 20 somethings don't understand is that it is not some weird hostility to younger people that makes older people look at you in disgust.  We wish you WERE'NT so awful. Corporate advertising has warped your minds.  Delusions of debt based prosperity have left you in la-la land.  The New World Order has royally screwed you up.

This ISN'T the same old intergenerational conflict that has gone on throughout history, I'm sorry to say.  This IS something new - as new as the internet, or being brought up by a TV instead of parents.  You kids are NOT OK.  And you are going to be learning about your developmental deficiencies the hard way very soon.  You better start asking older people for HELP.

ThePiousPriest's picture

I do think something needs to be addressed in this generational discussion theme. I would hardly consider 20 somethings that read this website on a daily basis to be representative of the Status Quo of Milennials. I very seldomly have the TV on (the most action it receives is during Football season or Debate/Election nights) and any sort of Corporate advertising annoys me. Everytime I'm walking through the department stores with my girlfriend, I have to remind her that all these clothes and ads she sees are there to make her feel awful, so she feels compelled to sign up for that credit card to buy all these clothes she doesn't need (because she is beautiful anyways) and bring her into debt. Does she listen? Depends on the day. 

With that being said, while I do have Student Loan debt, I plan to amass no more until it's paid off. My ideal is to pay cash for all and never to spend more than what I bring in. Quite frankly, I get a bit annoyed when I'm referred to as "a kid". I may be young, but I am of the age of majority, I could be conscripted into military service and I try to contribute to society. While I'm not making excuses for some, we are the result of the boomers, who were so busy amassing "wealth" that sticking us infront of a TV was more important than teaching some lessons and spending time (I was fortunate to have parents who gave me experience, particularly with landscaping and work, if you don't believe so, try digging a hole in Red Dirt for a day with hardly any water to soften the ground with just a regular shovel.). So we are the creation of this society yet the blame is on us? I think the logic starts to sound like Keynesian "logic".

So much more is expected of kids nowdays, because they are expected to sacrifice themselves to the altar Baby Boom greatness.Don't believe me? Look at the education cirriculum in some states, particularly with Math Education( I will admit, actual school administration is a joke nowdays) and compare it to what you had. Yeah, I'm slightly scared for my contemporaries, but I know that I am ahead of them and will be willing to extend a hand of help and show them the right path. Oh and before anyone accuses me of being so intune with the pop culture of today as a hipster, my music playlist contains Bob Segar, CCR, Skynard, lots of various classic rock artist. I use a desktop computer I've built myself (not some trendy overpriced Apple computer) and you can find me trying to understand the Precious Metals markets while everyone else is watching the Jersey Shore. I understand and enjoy differing opinions amongst different age groups, but please, don't lump us all together. That's like me trying to lump all you guys in with Obama, Bernanke, and Geithner. 


Milestones's picture

I'm not even sure why I am addressing your post--something in it strikes me. I grew up during the last of the depression--I'm 75+ now but I remember so much of growing up like you. You are basically feeling out where you are going. You will make a lot of mistakes; but you sound like you are headed in the right direction.

I agree with you and many others, the older folks did a piss poor job of helping out the younger generations. We deserve much blame The generation in charge now are very dangerous to our society. See, hear or speak no evil. 

I don't have any answers either, but I learned finally I was learning more going to and coming back from school then I did once I got there. I had 3 units to go for my Masters and dropped out and went to Naw Oleans French Qtr. That my man was an education.      Milestones

Are you kidding's picture

It's're NOT "one of them".  You're more "one of us".  You'll do sound like independent survivor.

ParisianThinker's picture

If you want more certainty, why not move to another country where opportunites are more certain? 

This website hates "socialism", but living in Sweden, Norway, Finland or even France is more civilized, too me, than living in the USA.

For example:

1. In France, most jobs provide a lifetime contract of employement. They cannot fire you "at will".  If your job in your department is no longer needed, they ask you were you would like to move to next.

This allows the population to be civil and pleasant towards each other. Few are predatory. They already have a lifetime contract of employment for 42 years.

2. Lunches are paid for by your employer and every day you are given vouchers to eat lunch. Lunch is from noon to 14h00.

3. Medical care is the best in the world, ranked #1 in France. It is affordable and medications are cheap.

If you have one of 30 different diseases, you do not pay anything, as it is considered too expensive for the average worker.

If you become sick on the street, help is just a call away. The firemen will come and take you to the nearest hospital for free.

4. Women are paid to become pregnant children are given allowances each month by the state, and more for school supplies at the beginning of each new semester. Wed's mothers and children are off. Mothers are paid for their off day on Wed's.

5. Education is nearly free, and you don't have to pay back any loans.

6. Their are no credit cards in France, only debt cards, hence no such thing as "credit card debt". Debt cards have PIN CODES, so you don't have to worry about your details being stolen like in the USA.

7. Retirement benefits are paid by France herself which still has a AAA rating.

8. If you loose your driver's license, or feel you are too handicapped to drive, they have special cars you can drive without a license.

9. If you don't want to own a car, you don't need one. Metro, bus, tramway, planes, and TGV make your life much easier.

10. If you have a low paying or high paying job and want to take a vacation, the cost will be determined by your salary. Vacations are encouraged and everyone goes someplace. Minimum vacation in France is 5 weeks, plus all holidays.

11. There is no GMO food allowed in France, so the food supply at the farmer's markets are fresh, organic and beautiful. Wine is also very good here.








rocker's picture

I find it funny how many who make fun of France and put them down are the very same people who go there on vocations. And for those elitist, (somtimes called job creators), own villas and flats overlooking the ocean.  These are the aristocrats that don't want stupid americans to know how good the majority of people in France have it. 

sun tzu's picture

What makes you think the people who make fun of France are the same ones who go there for vacation? Did you take a poll of Americans who vacation in France?

I know millions of Europeons go to the US for vacation despite making fun of Americans. 

Flakmeister's picture

I lived in France for 4 1/2 years..... Highest quality of life I have ever enjoyed. This is despite having made 4 times as much per annum here...

Any idea what it is like to hop into your car and be in the heart of Burgandy or the Alps in 2.5 hrs?

sun tzu's picture

Why didn't you stay there?

Flakmeister's picture

Why don't you go off into the corner and fist yourself...

New_Meat's picture

Alinsky lives on.  Don't cha' know. - Ned

Milestones's picture

Any idea it like to walk a couple of blocks and get all your fresh produce including most fruits and also very good local wine and drive to To Hell U Ride {Telluride) in about an hour?      Milestones

Flakmeister's picture

Hate to disappoint you...

There is no such thing as good local wine within an hour of Telluride....


Everything else it cool though