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Guest Post: Canada Oil Sands And The Precautionary Principle

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by James Miller from the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

Canada Oil Sands And The Precautionary Principle

The precautionary principle is typically defined as “if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of scientific evidence that the action or policy is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking the action.”  In practice, the principle is utilized by government policy makers to ensure technological advances don’t pose too dire of an effect on the surrounding environment.  This may appear a noble goal if one accepts the premise that the prime function of government is the protection of life and property.  History proves otherwise as easily corruptible politicians have tended to grant exceptions to wealthy business interests which look to dump their waste in public-owned natural resources such as waterways.  It is also clear judging by historical cases that socialization often results in environmental degradation.  One look at the pollution in once-communist nations such as China or the former Soviet Union reveals that a lack of private property results in a type of moral hazard en masse as there is little incentive to preserve what you don’t officially own.

Rather than enforce property rights, the state systematically violates them in order to buttress its dominating hold over society and reward its supporters.  What the precautionary principle has resulted in is further discretion over economic affairs given over to those public officials who take great delight in micro-managing the lives of others.  The stifled progression in technology and industrialization that is a consequence of the precautionary practice is the insidious but sincere goal of its enthusiasts.

Presently, there exists no greater threat to the green movement than that of cheap fossil fuels.  Drilling for oil is demonized in Western media.  The prospect of extracting massive amounts of natural gas in North America has ignited numerous environmental protests.  In Canada, the mining of oil sands has become a target of the federal government.  During a recent trip to survey the ongoing mining operation taking place in Alberta, Leader of the Official Opposition (the New Democratic Party) Thomas Mulcair admitted that while he was impressed by the “awe-inspiring” scale though which human-made machines and ingenuity were extracting this unconventional petroleum deposit, he was still wary of the potential environmental damage such an industrial breakthrough could present.  From the Globe and Mail:

Precisely one thing surprised Thomas Mulcair on his visit to Alberta: the scale of the oil sands.

During his first visit, including a helicopter flight over several oil sands mines, to a region he has criticized, Mr. Mulcair was overwhelmed by the “awe-inspiring” display.

“These are extraordinary undertakings on a human scale. I mean, they’re massive,” Mr. Mulcair said. “It’s extraordinarily impressive, but it also brings with it real challenges. Real challenges that if we don’t assume in this generation, we’re going to bear in future generations.”

Admittedly, environmental damage can be devastating to those private property owners affected.  This is why tort law and criminal charges are brought to assaulters and those who trespass or willingly destroy private property.  No amount of general prosperity that could develop through industrialization is an excuse to waive the blatant destruction of privately owned property.  When Professor Ludwig von Mises spoke to private property being “inextricably linked with civilization,” he referred to the conservation tendency property owners tend to develop.  In order for man to be forward-looking, he has to have some expectation of improving his current lot.  This generally means control over that land and material goods he possesses.  There is little incentive to invest time and capital without full ownership as any other interested party could come along and consume whatever resources are readily available.  The “tragedy of the commons” principle is why shared ownership of land or worker communes never last for significant periods of time.

The respect to private property is what ultimately drives capital accumulation and the employing of factors of production for more intricate or grand-in-scale industrial undertakings.  Just as people are limited by their ability to economically calculate and profit off of the unknowable future, it can be difficult to account for engineering mistakes.  Humans are imperfect; accidents happen.  What the precautionary principle does in practice is put government-enforced barriers in front of what could be great advances in industrialization.

And this is precisely what many environmentalists want.

Man develops machinery to raise his standard of living.  He takes risk in search of reward.  If success were assured, we would all be industrialists.  The broad use of the precautionary principle necessarily prevents innovation.  If more politicians like Mulcair were around in the 19th century, it is likely that the first rail road tracks would have never been laid.  The same goes for the growth in the widespread use of cars and airplanes.  Even fire, which can cause great harm if left uncontrolled, would have never been allowed extensive usage if the precautionary principle were adhered to in caveman times.  As investor Doug Casey observers in regard to the principle:

If our ancestors had even been stupid enough to adopt such an absolutely paralyzing idea, we’d still be shivering in caves, ravaged by dread diseases and hunted by animals larger and more powerful than we. No, I misspeak; most likely, we’d have gone extinct.

What the green movement hates is not pollution but humanity itself.  Its followers would rather see humans beholden to nature than conquer the deprivation the complete natural world holds for mankind.  It is communal authoritarianism disguised as moral sustainability.  The greens don’t look forward to a life of ease but only backwards to the days when man eked out a day to day existence while always on the verge of death.  They want humans to devolve to the state of irrational apes and eventually die out.  As Rothbardian philosopher David Gordon puts it:

Some environmentalists are outright enemies of humanity, who favor a drastic reduction in human population, if not the elimination altogether of our species.

According to a recent study conducted by economists Robert P. Murphy and Brian Lee Crowley, the petroleum industry in Canada “showers benefits across the provinces, and provides outlets for manufactured goods.”  The extraction of petroleum deposits from the oil sands promises to both create employment and boost economic output across the nation.  As long as the companies which engage in extraction are held liable for whatever damage they cause to private lands not under their contractual ownership, Canadians should welcome this technological innovation.

In the end, the raising of living standards is only made possible by industrial advances that require a preference of future betterment over present bliss.  Private property is the only means to aid in such endeavors.  This is why the green movement never lobbies for abolition of “public” property or stricter enforcement of property protection.  Its efforts are aimed at building up the nanny state along with stalling real progress.

Environmentalists who look to the state to enforce their visions of paradise are really just admirers of slavery.  Freedom of human will means risk taking and pioneering better methods to improve life on Earth.  It means creating a future of ease and contentment.

There is a stark difference between defending private property and environmentalism which advocates for little to no actual developments in industrial production.  Proponents of the former are grateful to sleep on a mattress instead of a dirt floor.  Proponents of the latter, especially politicians like Thomas Mulcair, want to see mankind emaciated, bowed down before them, and entirely submissive like a back alley mutt that has been kicked hard in gut all too many times.


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Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:16 | 2488089 Earl of Chiswick
Earl of Chiswick's picture

agenda 21


notwithstanding the photographic art of Burtynsky is worthy of contmeplation

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:10 | 2488206 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

This article is nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense.


This oil sand will be there. There need be no rush to destroy our country. There is no reason to consider us as out-dated and simpletons if we do not sell out our fish; our lands; our natural forests; AND FAR more important; the idiot that is Prime Idiot here publicly apologized for the worngs done to the native North American cultures last year...and now presumes to arrogantly run all over the lands and heritage for the sake of a "corporate appoinment" after he is run out of town on a rail.

Harper should be tried and convicted in A Canadian court for the damage he is doing. This article that supports the dismantling of numerous years of protection for the sake of milking a destructive source of energy is nonsense. What price to pay when all the fish are gone? What price to pay when a pipeline runs over some of the most pristine areas left in the world?


WHAT PRICE TO PAY WHEN THE HABITAT OF THE ONLY LIVING EXAMPLE ON THE PLANET OF THE KORMODE BREAR IS DESTROYED.  Who guaranteess any spill? Who benefits? Can you tell me that the will of the Canadian people in terms of preserving unpolllutied land is contrary to the Mises principle? Give your head a shake sir.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:19 | 2488233 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

I just re-read your article. I am normally a fan of the Mises view on economics but this is not that. This is a political comment on a national discussion.  I canno disagree with you more. This is not about economy. This is about what we leave and what we preserve. NOT everything is about money sir.


I suppose that you live in some southern part of Ontario? I suppose you commute. I suppose your bank balance and comfort is your primary yard-stick of thought. Ypu perhaps would benefit from seeing first-hand what you wish to destroy for the sake of an economic theory.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:25 | 2488253 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

Ludwig would run you out of town on a rail. But you would be in good (sic) company. You an Harper.  This is a thinly disguised piece of political activism in disguise.  You sir have lost your mind (or your morals or both)


Short gold are we? Long Endbridge are we? A card-carrying Harper bumfucker?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:30 | 2488269 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

I live in an area where the Harper govt is holding "hearings" on the piplines to take this crap to the pristine shores. They are ignoring and publically denying any real input. EVERYONE, just about. is saying no no no no no.


Hang them high and all their shills. This article is just that. Shill.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:53 | 2488314 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

So, exactly what type of energy are you using to heat your living quarters during the Canadian winters?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:09 | 2488356 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

I cut and chop wood. As far as my car goes it runs on oil product like all the world. What about you?


I have personally cut my hydro usage by 45% in the last year and am very busy looking at any way I can to cut out oil and gas. This is not the point sir. The world runs on oil. That is true.  I am of the belief that we do not sacrifice everyting to continue it. The oil sands ain't going anywhere; certainly not fast enough so that we cannot have an inelligent conversation regarding the furture.


Where is the population when the pipelines destroy the fish?; the habitats of numerouss species and the lifestyles of the native populations? The only real beneficiiaries are the oil companies.  China has bought into these companies as much as Canadian law allows. I see it. I am not stupid.


This is not right.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 00:36 | 2488478 bretondog
bretondog's picture


The only real beneficiiaries are the oil companies.  China has bought into these companies as much as Canadian law allows


Harper is bought and paid for.

More Corporo Fascistic madness!



Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:42 | 2488879 CPL
CPL's picture

Unfortunately nothing to be done about it.  IT's nice of the Canadian media though to inform the population on the heavy gates being installed on all 401 ramps and the monitoring stations for our safety.


Too bad Ottawa doesn't understand anyone outside of the city knows that the back roads are faster than the highways.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:50 | 2488880 CPL
CPL's picture

Unfortunately nothing to be done about it.  It's nice of the Canadian media though to inform the population on the heavy gates being installed on all 401 ramps and the monitoring stations for our safety.


Too bad Ottawa doesn't understand anyone outside of the city knows that the back roads are faster than the highways.

For the oil, between the lousy as fuck EROIE and the poisoning/emptying water resevoirs, we in Canada will reap what is sown.  No children will be left in the shit show coming up.  Not one.


Wait until a couple of these companies go tits up and nobody is watching the toxic overflow containers, instead of a tiny amount of toxic refuse trickling into the water supply, it'll be the Peter North Money shot.  But what's going to fuck with your mind isn't that, it's the fact you'll never be told.  Ever.  We'll just simply get sick and die en masse.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 02:58 | 2488627 darkpool2
darkpool2's picture

Have to agree. Whacko is a great handle.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:10 | 2488359 nmewn
nmewn's picture

He's hugging a tree...that he just killed ;-)

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 00:24 | 2488464 Lore
Lore's picture

If you want to see a panoply of shills for the Lobbyist Industrial Complex, just visit the Northern Gateway public website where Letters of Comment are posted. Talk about squeaky wheels. It's disgusting and hardly reflects the wishes or interests of ordinary Canadians.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:44 | 2488295 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

I read it.  

Waste of time.

Not relevant in a world of oil scarcity.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:19 | 2488378 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

I agree. Waste of time. This is ot Mises. This is a slanted political shill writing. Waste of space. And ignorant. And not becauseI disagree but because it is a piece of propoganda.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:54 | 2488317 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

For the edification of the masses. We had a guy named Mulroney here who sold out Canada on the first tier. He was taken to task about his bribes from

German contractors. He also retired from the PM place to ber given a board appoinment to "guess what?" Barrick?  Then when the heat came down he went senile right quick.


Now we got this idiot Harper. 

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:00 | 2488329 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

Snd it would seem this author as well.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 06:26 | 2488738 midtowng
midtowng's picture

What's more, not everything can be private property. The air, for instance, cannot be private property. Nor can the oceans.

The fact is that communal lands existed for tens of thousands of years. The idea of everything being private only arose a couple hundred years ago.

This article is all about ideology, not science or even facts.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:15 | 2488099 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

What the green movement hates is not pollution but humanity itself

Yeah, we need more oil to feed guzzling air craft carriers on humanitarian missions. We also need oil so that suburban families can drive to Taco Bell in Hummers....or maybe mining trucks with 18-foot wheels. 

Humans as far back as the cave dwellers also figured out not to shit where they eat. Clean environment means survival. 

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:33 | 2488132 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Yeeeaah.  The best example of the application of the "Precautionary Principle" I have ever seen is that exercised by the big energy companies telling us that we must not develop alternative clean energies because: they won't work, they'll destroy your lifestyle, they're too expensive, and they will take to long to develop.  The true luddites in this gang are the oil and coal majors.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 08:03 | 2488817 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

bingo SOZ. +6

It's called regulatory capture. With a twist of mind-numbing propaganda.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:12 | 2488211 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

yeah, not shit. WTF was this article about again? I mean "private property rights are the be all and end all of economic growth"? Really? You ARE drilling on Public Lands mofo! And if you read your legal history "building a dam on a river" meant impinging on someone ELSE's property right you moron. That's why a functioning COURT SYSTEM is absolutely fundamental to the smooth functioning of a capitalistic system. The Judge must weigh the "rights of the owner to the needs of society as a whole." And in so doing create a body of law...of "precedent for social good"...which hopefully other Judges will follow. Needless to say the exact opposite has been going on for decades in the USA. And "now we see the inevitable result." Cities are bankrupt, people are enraged not engaged. Corruption rules the roost and "pay me up front before i'll run your company into the ground" is what defines success. It's amazing this system still functions at all actually. the only good news i see is "the bad news is coming more quickly than expected."

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:22 | 2488781 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Say it brother DA.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:13 | 2488215 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Caviar Emptor

CARLIN: Let me tell you about endangered species, all right? Saving
endangered species is just one more arrogant attempt by humans to control
nature. It's arrogant meddling. It's what got us in trouble in the first
place. Doesn't anybody understand that? Interfering with nature. Over
90%, way over 90% of all the species that have ever lived on this planet,
ever lived, are gone. They're extinct. We didn't kill them all. They
just disappeared. That's what nature does. We're so self-important, so
self-important. Everybody is going to save something now. Save the
trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails. And the
greatest arrogance of all, save the planet. What?

I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white
bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is
there aren't enough bicycle paths, people trying to make the world safe
for their Volvos. There is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong
with the planet. The planet is fine. The people are (bleep) --
difference, difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the
planet is doing great. It's been here four and a half billion years. Did
you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a
half billion years. We've only been engaged in heavy industry for a
little more than 200 years.

Two hundred years versus four and a half billion, and we have the
conceit to think that somehow we're a threat, that somehow we're going to
put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just
a-floatin' around the sun? The planet has been through a lot worse than
us, been through all kinds of things worse than us, been through
earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares,
sunspots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles, hundreds of
thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors,
worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays,
recurring ice ages, and we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans
are going to make a difference? The planet isn't going anywhere. We are!
We're going away.


“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this shit. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles … hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages … And we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!

We’re going away. Pack your shit, folks. We’re going away. And we won’t leave much of a trace, either. Maybe a little Styrofoam … The planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet’ll shake us off like a bad case of fleas.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we’re gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, ’cause that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed. And if it’s true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice toward plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, “Why are we here?”

? George Carlin
“We’re so self-important. Everybody’s going to save something now. “Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails.” And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. Save the planet, we don’t even know how to take care of ourselves yet. I’m tired of this shit. I’m tired of f-ing Earth Day. I’m tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is that there aren’t enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don’t give a shit about the planet. Not in the abstract they don’t. You know what they’re interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They’re worried that some day in the future they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn’t impress me.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:35 | 2488228 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture


From today's mainstream media: Global warming already making an impact on humans: 

-Stay or go? Some towns eyeing retreat from sea




- Oh and wait, there's more!:

Global warming having an impact on strategic geopolitics (aka officialdom is no longer denying that the climate HAS changed, and they're not waiting to grab what they can)


-OSLO, May 31 (Reuters) - Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will assert U.S. interest in the Arctic, where the prospects for abundant oil, gas and new trade routes has been likened to a modern-day gold rush, when she visits the region on Saturday.


As the sea ice recedes with climate change, huge oil and gas fields are adding vast amounts to global reserves, while sea passages are opening for longer periods each year and cutting thousands of miles off trade routes between Europe and Asia.


Clinton will visit Tromsoe, a Norwegian town in the Arctic Circle, as part of an 8-day trip to Scandinavia, the Caucasus and Turkey.


She follows a host of high-profile international visitors as the region enjoys unprecedented political and economic power.


Norway has moved its military operational headquarters into the Arctic Circle, China has development plans for Iceland and countries, including Russia, are laying claim to exploration rights in the once pristine Barents Sea.  ..."All the major powers are positioning themselves for this development,....Continued...


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:45 | 2488297 WhackoWarner
WhackoWarner's picture

That's all well and good. However when active stuoidity and greed destroy nature I think it somewhat less amusingl.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:36 | 2488403 nmewn
nmewn's picture

How many trees did you kill today? 

Ok...this was fun...nite ;-)

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:00 | 2488764 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Nature is fine, always has been always will be.

You are speaking of the limited perspective of today.

Species die off, new species arise.

The universe gets that.

Why can't you?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:53 | 2489389 Marco
Marco's picture

Your kids won't be able to enjoy the millenium range averaged natural beauty ... they'll have to live in what you leave them.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:49 | 2488802 chistletoe
chistletoe's picture

I, too, could wax polemic about this article.

I could take the time, on this beautiful, crisp sunday, this rare day in June, to thoroughly, carefully and logically destroy this little piece of propaganda.

I might start with this statement:

"Presently, there exists no greater threat to the green movement than that of cheap fossil fuels. "

Excuse me?  Did you say that black is white?  Did you say that peace is war?  Did you say that up is down?

Exactly when did the green movement begin?  Exactly what activity concerns them the most, and brings the most contributions into their coffers to fight?  And whose side are you on, here?


I'm going back to weeding my garden.  With all of the extra carbon dioxide in the atmosphere these days, all of the extra warmth,

its becoming incredibly GREEN this year ....

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:38 | 2488962 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

This author is a hack.  Cheap fossil fuels shuts down the oil sands, and the Gulf oil spill never happens.


Because there's no reason to go after the most destructive, risky, and expensive oil extraction projects if oil is cheap and readily available elswhere.   But it's not, and we're scraping the bottom of the barrel.  And idiots like this author cheering along the way as we destroy our life support system trying to squeeze another drop from the tube.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 06:27 | 2488742 midtowng
midtowng's picture

When did conservatism transform into putting profits above the good of humanity?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:16 | 2488100 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Farting in a mason jar to capture renewable energy will require a government permit. This is why we are collecting DNA on everyone worldwide. Some peeps will find out why soon enough.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:17 | 2488103 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

A member of the Official Opposition is not part of the government.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:51 | 2488168 Matt
Matt's picture

Where does his paychecks come from?

You can say he isn't part of the executive, but the executive in Canada is the Prime Minister and whoever he appoints to the Prime Minister's Office. By that reasoning, even members of the Prime Minister's party are not 'Government'.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:34 | 2488275 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

" By that reasoning, even members of the Prime Minister's party are not 'Government'."


Correct. Only cabinet makes the decisions, ultimately coming from the PMs Office. The article was implying that the a member of the government was impeding progress:

"What the precautionary principle does in practice is put government-enforced barriers in front of what could be great advances in industrialization."

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:18 | 2488104 Global Hunter
Global Hunter's picture

Interview with Thomas Mulclair from early 2011 live on CBC tv, doubting pics of binLaden exists.  I am not so sure he's a typical establishment politician who wants people to bow down to him

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:18 | 2488106 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Try explaining that to the average moron canadian who's brainwashed that socialism and government control of everything is godly... Not to mention, most of them WORK for the government in one way or the other so they think if you criticize the government, you are criticizing them personally...

You're gonna have a very tough time...they'll just call you crazy or say yeah yeah...

I'm a libertarian in socialist land and I'm quite sick of the control freaks all around me.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:44 | 2488153 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

Arrow down? Really? You people don't know any canadians do you?? Or is it me who's surrounded by pro-government control freaks?? Not all of them are like that but a lot are.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:13 | 2488216 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Don't worry, you've stepped on the toes of a couple of Luddites.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:28 | 2488263 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Wow...the windmill/solar crowd jumped on this thread pretty quick.

Apparently they are saying the oil & nat gas under the ground belongs to them and them alone just as the wind & sky above does.

Property rights, interesting.

The death of thousands of birds of prey from windmills or the strip mining of rare earths for solar panels and covering & suffocating the desert with gleaming panels of meaningless and is not to be thought of as the equivalent of mining coal or drilling a damned hole in the ground for an oil well.


Can we just build some nuke plants so the elitists can drive one hundred thousand dollar Fisker Karma's to the bar and I can post on ZH...or will GW & Terry the Tuna have a collective heart attack over even that? ;-)

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:42 | 2488290 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Try not to make too much sense with your counter-arguments. You'll get all the tree-huggers in a tizzy and sufferin' from 'The Vapors'.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:51 | 2488307 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Gawd I can't stand it sometimes PE..."they" get us arguing amongst ourselves over some of the most banal bullshit as they slip out the backdoor with the friggin silverware.

It's amazing, it really is.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:19 | 2488379 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"'they' get us arguing amongst ourselves"

Go Asshole Team!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:31 | 2488398 nmewn
nmewn's picture

A florist, carrying a bouquet of noxius weeds, cheering for the wrong team, is what I always expect from you LTER.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:41 | 2488409 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Good point.  Glad to know you have so much substance behind your position.  ^^l^

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 04:28 | 2488670 Element
Element's picture


Like were going to do anything except that which we generally do and have done.

If there is need, we will do, and we will also adjust what we do as a result of this.

At some point people have to accept that living means 'changing' the environment in many ways (in some minds this equates to negative 'degrading')

Recently I said to someone here that cyclones, that had temporarily created destruction and environmental calamity, have now also produced tremendous regrowth, full rivers and dams, tremendous blooms of wildlife, bumper crops and healthy fat livestock, healthy abundant fisheries, massive new investments in infrastructure repairs and replacements, private investment as businesses ramped production and employment in the recovery, to meet construction needs, and this has bolstered flagging regional economies in numerous ways,a nd opened up a million new oportunities for humans, and for nature's regrowth ... etc.

There's two sides to this coin, and one of them is a blessing.

But some really don't want to admit to that side of the equation, that creative-destruction is intrinsic to nature and existence. That every storm of catastrophe brings an explosion of new life and opportunity.  Even the mass-extinctions in the fossil record always lead to spectacular speciation diversity and profusion of life.

What makes you think now will be different?

If people don't like the fact of human-associated environmental change, then please, do kill yourselves.  Show us your tremendous passion and commitment to saving nature and all that good-stuff.  The maggots would really appreciate such a meaningless, pointless and yummy philosophical gesture.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:03 | 2488768 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Even better, produce the disasters, they will provide such platforms for new diversity, new life opportunities etc

Oh, wait, that would be keynesianism...

The magic of US citizenism and wish for the best of every world possible while discarding the junk onto a third party.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 08:24 | 2488824 nmewn
nmewn's picture

AnAnus says, in part:

"produce the disasters...Oh, wait, that would be keynesianism...The magic of US citizenism..."

Keynes was born & raised a Fabian Socialist and a British fact, in the blobbing up, welfare system known as the Oligarchical Crown Circle, he was called Lord Keynes.

Because that's what royalty is...welfare and a soft life for the few, at the expense of all.

The only destruction capitalism needs to thrive & flourish is the destruction of malinvestment (even then, through free movement of capital, re-allocation, profit is made on the short side) not actual buildings, homes and lives.

We leave that to committed socialists & communists like you who seem quite good at it.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:31 | 2488867 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh.

Nobody beats US citizens when it comes to certain stuff.

US citizen keynes held british citizenship. How does british citizenship exclude US citizenism?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:49 | 2488303 Rynak
Rynak's picture

i was #7 junking you. Not because i think that gov-control is good or bad, not because i think that socialism is good or bad, not because i think that "insert favorite fake polarity here" is good or bad.

Rather, i junked you because your post is that of a tool, stuck in the virtual reality you were born into, and continue to believe in despite of being on ZH. Completely ignorant to all the options you were given, being all fake, and irrelevant the really significant questions.

At this point, i could write a debunk post about capitalism as the sole soltuion, write a debunk of communism being the sole solution, write a post about collectivism, individualism, libertarianism, fascism.... whatever...

But since in your case, your favorite "feindbild" apparently is socialism, here's the deal:

Socialism as it is currently understood, technically is simply filling "holes" via refinancing. It is "oh, we have a deficit there - lets finance it, by rerouting ressources from elsewhere".

Here's why a social aspect, is always needed: No matter what supposedly "pseudo-perfect" system you come up with, there will always be at least short-term temporary imbalances, and constantly reinventing a new "solution" for any transient imbalance, would be way more expensive, than simple rerouting ressources.

And here's why socialism doesn't work as the sole model: If all you have, is metaphorically green shots, you will never fix causes of mid- and longterm issues... you will aways just "throw ressources at the hole", in the hope that it will go away on its own.

Granted, with the current governance structure that we have now, the method of socialism/refinancing is bound to be abused..... true, and so is pretty much every other popular "tool". And actually, no "tool" will ever be able to fix this, because THIS problem, isn't a matter of technique... it is a matter of having people in power, with fucked up INTENTIONS (and as you may or may not remember: Purpose isn't the same as method, just as the goal isnt the same as the way).

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:25 | 2488862 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I really don't care why you junked it Rynak, the fact remains, the constant interference with market forces has brought us to where we are today.

One may say (however they swing) that filling in the hole is necessary (I don't, but for the sake of argument...) but we also have to ask how the hole got there in the first place don't we?

Who thought it was a great domestic policy idea to "invest" in a foreign manufacturer (Fisker), to create a one hundred three thousand dollar "green car"...with domestic taxpayer debt...that the average taxpayer can't even afford to buy?

My point has always been, if we allow public-private partnerships in finance or business, the public will always be the ones left holding the bag. It's as true now as it's always been...the connected cronies always flock to this arrangement.

And, unfortunately for you my German friend, you will find out soon enough, on some still, cloudy, winter day just how much these cronies impact your life as you sit freezing in your dark home as they sit warm and snug in's not what I want's what you wanted and asked for in the long term.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:11 | 2488205 macholatte
macholatte's picture



Environmentalists who look to the state to enforce their visions of paradise are really just admirers of slavery. 


Let's not stop with only the Green movement. The list is quite large and most assuradly includes the Progressive Party. The Constitution of the United States is the anti-slavery document which is hated by governments and numbskull groups the world over and adulterated by "easily corrupted politicians".


"I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact."

-- Tyler Durden


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:19 | 2488234 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


"The Constitution of the United States is the anti-slavery document"

Try researching that and maybe making a timeline to the point where Blacks actually had civil rights.

You may wish to add when women were given the right to vote, when indentured servitude was abolished, when children became something other than property, and what the fuck happened to the Indians.

Oh and poor white people who say go on strike for better working conditions.

The Constitution was written for RICH WHITE MEN.

Beleive the lie if you want, but reality and History illustrate something far different.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:31 | 2488272 macholatte
macholatte's picture


The Constitution was written for RICH WHITE MEN.

Beleive the lie if you want, but reality and History illustrate something far different.



And that is what brainwashing the ignorant is all about.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:46 | 2488298 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Rich white men...fucking canards & memes.

WTF is held/has the legal authority for the change of everything that aggrieves you so? Has some other document or frame of governance come about that I'm not aware of?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 02:03 | 2488576 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

nm, you really do need to open your mind and read/delve some more. For a clearly educated man, you have never shown an ounce of "bend"... it looks like you believe all your "learnin" is done and dusted.

You really believe the constitution is "in effect" or ever was?

That the Rich White Men cared about liberty, freedom, justice? For the puritans who came over on the may-flower? And the hungry and poor and the damned from everywehre? Give us your......

Actually it was "Give us your slaves". Chattel. America is about as close to a Penal colony in it's beginnings as Australia ever was. Why did the Irish come in hoardes? Who were these Italian immigrants, in the main?

Take a gander at the link below, give it an hour of your time.

More than likely, you'll make a snide remark and go fishing in the Gulf. Joke's on you because you bought the biggest lie, hook, line and frigging sinker.

Good luck.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:21 | 2488642 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

For all the history challenged douches and learnin' done and dusted gaffers here, I'd suggest Googling the Great Irish Famine:

In Ireland, the Great Famine was a period of mass starvation, disease and emigration between 1845 and 1852.

Then, go see some god-damned immigration trends.

That famine, like most famines in history were MAN MADE. In this case, guess by fucking who? It has a Crown and is called a Corporation (Hint enough?). Same CC that RULES Canada, till this day.

That was to shove a whole lot of poor, starving irishmen and women to the promised land. 

Oz was filled up because laws in the UK were made so fucking draconian that sneezing in the wrong place got you into a Goal (that is old english for Jail for you numbnut know-it-alls) and then a quick hop to a Galley on it's way south to the un-promised land.

I've heard so many folks here quote Santayana, *in my best wheedley voice*

"Those who ignore history" etc., 

And all they know is history as is written and taught in the Mainstream.

Newsflash: It's a lie. Your great Manifest Destiny is the biggest wordplay, population skewering lie.



Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:53 | 2488659 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

ORI, with the trend of yur remarks of the last 3 days yu are in grave peril of becoming the house Fanonista...not a fate I would wish upon yu, and certainly not one in keeping with the dignity of the position yu have accrued for yurself here...

the last thing in the world the resistance needs now is more put downs of 'white men' ...the cabbalists have handled that particular slander campaign brilliantly, and frankly, don't need yur helping hand at this late stage of the west's disintegration...yur painting not only with a very broad brush stroke now, put really just fling in mud at a canvas and calling it Art\Truth, whatever...

I've got two comments to yur last remarks that yu have either not read or not responded too...please go back and read them, and then respond in the same spirit of solidarity for which yu are esteemed, and which we needs maintain above all other values...

I can feel Slewie buckling up for another bruisefest here, and yu seem to be eager to find a matchmate...this time round I'm not so sure I'll be coming to yur defense in the event of scurrilous remarks, because yur are guilty of same lowballin now, and slewie seems to be a guy who carves an upwards trajectory here instead of downwards...

Breathe, brother, breathe!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:52 | 2488800 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Brother Joyful,

Respectfully, I think your slip/bias is showing ;-)

1) I did not say Rich White men, that was picking up the words of Gulley Foyle, repeated by Macholatte and snubbed, as usual without any substance by nmwhatever (as is his wont, I've had conversations with nm before, no substance in the man), who thinks he is some sort of constututional scholar, but never backs up his snide digs with any facts, links...nothing.

Do peer directly up-thread.

Given the above, your chiding is clearly without substance. Again, why the thin skin Joyful Brother? 

2) I do appreciate your "stepping in", but I do not need or ask to be defended. You did that because you felt called to. Your with-drawal of said back-up is really of little consequence. TO be noted though, what-ever you write, I find fascinating. So, that would be a loss, and I do apreciate the sentiment of standing up for me.

3) I consider Slewie a "low" human being. He has no character. He has slandered in the past with egregious lies that some probably believed. I care neither a Rat's ass (ha!) or a flying fuck for his bruise-fest, nor for your clear grudging admiration of his attempt to move "up-wards.  As I said before, He can fuck himself with a rusty nail. 

So, repsectfully, please examine your assumptions and don't read lightly if you are going to chide, mmmmmm kay as some people say?

We are all on the same side here. Most of us anyways.

Hope the herding goes well and your flock is safe.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 08:15 | 2488821 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

my flock, Vivek, is those people of my background race n culture who are innocent of the crimes that the cabbalist crew will pin upon them, in tried n tru fashion, to xcuse themselves from the 'natural' consequences of their crimes against humanity - by means of their black magical arts\aka modern scientificism.

Few back in the fallen lands are even vaguely aware of the deluge of destruction that will fall upon them shortly...some, of the collaborationist class, wil be deserving of their fate...I write here on behalf of those who are not...but will die horribly anyways, if the sionists have their way.

That yu wish to remain ignorant of all those dynamics pertinent to the last 300 years of 'western civilization' is no crime of itself. That yu have chosen to abet the attack upon our peoples' by stoking the fires of divisiveness here is a choice, on the other hand, from which there is no easy going back. The call to family(as in universal family of brotherhood of man) has been lost upon yu, due to a small hole within yu from some previous hurt that yu have failed to expunge. 

I sensed back in September that yu carried the baggage of yur past unwontingly, but prefer always not to go on hunch alone when evaluating folks...colonial stain...that was the give away phrase ORI - that is the voice of yur grandparents generation...the regional elites who tired of the yoke of the colonialists, theorize a 'revolution' for themselves, cleverly manipulate the masses into finding common cause with their 'soon to be' new owners, then flipping the deck so that they come out on top of the new old exploitative program...

yu could have done better, my friend, much better, here. Turning yur back on the call for solidarity is a free slip is showing? Okey doke. Yu broke the bonds bud...I believe yu have harnessed yurself to the wrong cart.

Go in peace.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:50 | 2489387 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

ori's just a regular guy with some talent and brains

why he behaves in this manner on another publisher's site is either his business strategy, or  ?

this is the second string i have offered to just let tyler choose, shoot one of us, and toss the dead guy in the drink

it's up to ori

same as last time;  he can't stand up to me intellectually;  i believe tyler recognizes and values this

fade that, ori!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 14:30 | 2489460 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

"he can't stand up to me intellectually;  i believe tyler recognizes and values this"

What is this, the day of delusion? You and your new admirer Joyful? Who thinks you are moving up-wards?

From the Comment section on my blog, verifiable: What happened Slewie? Ehhhhhh? 

Rat douchebag. Should I start posting all of your other comments on my blog here for all to see what a liar you are?

This is a "nice" one and then they started getting crazy. see? It's a pattern, I did not feed the rat, rat got pissy?


Should I post a rambler or a nasty next?

YOU are a low-life, this is the last time I'll address you directly.



Submitted on 2011/02/12 at 6:12 pm

nice work, sir. i answered U, or Gully Foyle, as it turns out, on p2 of “Your Life According To The Goobermint”. this is war. maybe cosmic, probably not, but then, again, that hourglass is getting pretty full, eh? hopefully, the planet will not come apart, quite yet. somebody has read Nicholl? the commentaries? OM MG!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:03 | 2488916 nmewn
nmewn's picture

ORI...a confirmed member of a caste system, who presumes to lecture another on natural/human rights, while at the same time he asserts his "rank" over another in the form of just doesn't get any better or more contradictory.

At one time we reached out to each other. I thought that it was an attempt at I understand you completely.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:38 | 2489249 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

ORI...a confirmed member of a caste system, who presumes to lecture another on natural/human rights, while at the same time he asserts his "rank" over another in the form of just doesn't get any better or more contradictory.


Oh yes, it can get better or even more contradictory. Just ask a US citizen for the service.

Imagine a US citizen pinpointing the belonging of a human being as a confirmed member of a caste system and questioning the caste member possibility to lecture on human rights, begetting the question: what caste has one to be to lecture on human rights?

Russian dolls, russian dolls. The magic of US citizenism.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:04 | 2489523 ffart
ffart's picture

Are you on any anti-psychotic medication? If not, do they have psychiatrists in China?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:03 | 2488765 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Oh regional Indian

Look into the Irish and Scots sold into slavery.

They were shipped to the new world.

That's why you find  Blacks with names like Riley. Intermarriage between slaves.

Not really common History but the story is getting out.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:33 | 2488789 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Precisely Gully. The slave traders of the City of London were colour-blind.

And the Irish Famine was their creation. AS were all the great Indian famines during their "rule" here.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:40 | 2488874 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Look into the Irish and Scots sold into slavery.

They were shipped to the new world.

That's why you find Blacks with names like Riley. Intermarriage between slaves.

Not really common History but the story is getting out.



You can find a lot of negroes with anglo saxon names in the US. Actually, none of the negroes who descend from slaves in the US retained an african name.

Destruction of culture.

So it would intermarriage this or that. Wrong. It only means that an irish guy owned a negro as slave. And gave him his own name.

You think the McCain negro branch of the family bears an irish/scottish name because they intermarry or because the McCain family owned slaves?

US citizen fantasy. How prone US citizens are to believe in any of their tales.

Intermarriage... You had to find this one.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:25 | 2488944 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Here we go....first Indian, now Chinese "sages" pontificating to the huddled hordes of the diminished west on the nature of their serial failings as a race, as a culture, as a group's priceless a descendant of Scots, Scot-Irish, an bog Irish folk, like I need some half wit with a degree from some 'western' college to lecture me on the crimes committed against my own forebearers?!?!?

Cynical, hypocritical, calculated and hard core bullshit...used to advance a suspect agenda that is simply not going to go unchallenged in these pages any more. My folks got swept up from hearth n home to be used as cannon fodder for an English Empire that was (since the days of Queen Bess\John Dee) never more than an outlier\front for the moneypower cabbalists who now seek to encourage our demise by inciting the envy and hatreds of the post colonial east .... via dupes such as those who lay their bullshit trips upon us here.

Our Irish ancestors were victimized>so What? They suffered through some tough times and came out thrivin! My grandad used to say...'when the going gets tuff, the tuff get going...worked for his generation, an works still today...for those who aren't graduates in whiney victomology....hey losers,

lecture less, and look back into the mirror more...the image yu see will open a door...

to self discovery!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:49 | 2488980 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

What are you blabbering about? Crimes? What crimes? Could you name them? It is expected you do not imply that US citizens consider enslaving negroes and acculturating them is a crime. Because US citizens do not consider that a crime. Never will.

Lecturing? Your whole post reads like lecturing. Mine was a simple reality check.

You really have to want it to sell the idea that negroes sporting an Irish name in the US is because Irish were slaves (they were not at worse indentured servants) and they intermarried with negros. Sounds like mel gibson's tale.

Yes, yes, the irish and the scots were very poorly treated by the brits. No one was ever more mistreated by the brits. Victimhood, US citizen spirit anyone?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:03 | 2489157 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

I do believe that I'm getting under yur skin...good...very good.

Stay tuned; I'll have more fun wit yu lined up....

think bamboo shoots n fingernails, Chum-li!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:44 | 2489259 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

I do believe that I'm getting under yur skin...good...very good.

Very off. Very off.

No US citizen can get under my skin by behaving the US citizen way. On the very contrary.

I expect nothing else from US citizens than expressions of US citizenism.

Human nature is unpredictable. But once harnessed by US citizenism, you can get some fine results.

Sorry to disappoint here. Not so sorry actually.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:06 | 2489529 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

not so sorry?

no problem...

not so disapointed/ yur words are belied by the palpable panic creeping into yur dialogue today...may be yu[plural] should learn to meditate> ?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:03 | 2489161 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

What I find hilarious is the assumption that you are Chinese and the take-offs thereof.

Including the fast imploding Joyful here.

Keep the illusion.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:41 | 2489255 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

What I find hilarious is the assumption that you are Chinese and the take-offs thereof.


The other US citizen and his meme on chinese citizenism has to be thanked for that. He started the trend.

US citizen nature allowed it to build up steam. And here we are. It has spred like a wood fire.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 14:15 | 2489437 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

indeed, the trend seems to be tag teamin

Kool...glad I could bring yu two to - gether...possibly between the toooo of yu, yu can find a way to tether


to some kind of basis from which to communicate something other than the anxieties of being dupes used to sow divisiveness were none need

exist....May yu find yur bliss...yughanadda'd together

hey, here's a koan for yu too easterners...

Why did Bodhidharma go to the West?

\possibly got tired of being surrounded by people pretendin to possess precious pearls of wisdom what were no more than images of the moon in water.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 14:44 | 2489485 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Imploding VIVEK?  I can see yu have emptied yur bag of tricks an there's nothin left/ even the public school latin can't hide that. 

If I ever lose it to the degree yu did here on the Monday thread

is that fuck recent history. Fuck those impacted by recent history. Fuck obvious evidence of genocide (the Native Americans, Aboriginals and India Indians together run into the 10's of millions)..

I'll know it's time to go. I challenged yu to an open n honest debate about yur comments this week, in the most circumspect manner, and yu've gone every which way but there...It's clear that yu like to toss n run...I never ever trust anyone who cries tears for other peoples' plight...there's always a personal motive...yurs has pretty much been revealed today...I gave yu an out a few hours ago with the univerally understood phrase "go in peace."

Maybe yu should take it. Yu and yur new pal are pretty much outted now.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 06:58 | 2488761 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Weren't you the one condoning rape, of men and women, by the real men of the "warrior class" because the weak always are abused?

Weren't you the one comparing rape, of men and women, by the real men or the "warrior class" to hazing?

Making all that rape seem just plain old everyday activity.

Next you will work in some constitutional justification of rape, of both men and women, by the real men of the "warrior class".

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:50 | 2488895 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Condoning?...hazing?...that's gotta be some of the stupidest, most outrageous shit you've ever posted...and for you, that's saying a lot.

Pull up the thread it right here so everyone can move back & forth and see the full context of what I said...I'm very capable of exposing your lies and your slander...right here & right now.

Now back it up...

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:33 | 2488955 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Don't hold yur breath waiting for an answer....whenever yu call these doods on their bullshit they're conveniently off on their next tangent, and "unavailable for comment."

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:52 | 2488985 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

More than anything, it is a total waste of time.

Self indiction is a big thing in US citizenism. Even with evidences placed in front of them, US citizens keep claiming it wasnt them. They always find ways to deny, weasel their way out.

Lets see if US citizens are oblivious of their own nature.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:53 | 2488986 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

For a man who pontificates with such depth Joyful, perhaps a look in your own mirror would do well.

So you say above you know the deep history of the Irish by your ancestry? So you understand that not one, but three famines were visited upon your ancesters to get them to move west? I mean, fully well? 

And you sound more and more like talking about it should be verbotten? Like in Germany and the Hollow-cost?

Very strange. Perhaps it's the full moon.

Especially when it is the self-same cabal doing much the same things to the global population, just different tools is all.

As a "survivor", you are saying that the millions who died, needlessly (there was enough food to feed them, including the Great Bengal Famine of the 1930's, where the resident Viceroy said in the Brit parliament "let them starve", 30 million died, 80 years ago, recent history) are lost to history, footnotes? 

And that said experiences do not leave generational impacts? Look at you.... you yourself stated some time ago that you moved away to get away....right?

I thought I understood you somewhat.

Do some peering in your own mirror before slinging judgement like you have above and here.

Talk about a Tulsa Turnaround...


Too bad.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:25 | 2489220 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

If I was to lecture Indians upon what they should think or do about the sectarian crimes committed within the spectrum of their culture, I would be heavily criticized for patronizing and sanctimonious behaviour...yet,...need I go on?  Double Standards...dualistic vision...burning bridges, strange decision...

this ain't Tusla bud, and the time for fancy word games is past now...some time in the last 60 days the world changed from pre-final phase to final phase part previous invitation to yu to [re]connect with the warrrior caste element was a sincere reflection of my awareness of what comes next, and who will be able to contribute...

no one pushed yu into a corner and forced yu to choose staying in yur intellectual jungle gym, nor is the choice of jumping to the sionist hate rhetoric without consequence.

 I've changed, indeed, and changed with the times, it's the way to flow with life...adapt and redesign...yur feeling the cost of staying static, self absorbed, and poorly positioned to contribute to the coming struggle. Like I said, yu could have done much, mcuh better...

I can see now that yu've been burning up with the need to get back at the Pirat for the previous girlfriend? hit of testosterone making yu feel decidely bullish about things?...feelin yur oats huh?  That's good, cause the cart yu've hitched yurserlf to is a wheel or two short of a wagon...gonna be a hard haul ORI!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:50 | 2489275 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

If I was to lecture Indians upon what they should think or do about the sectarian crimes committed within the spectrum of their culture, I would be heavily criticized for patronizing and sanctimonious behaviour...yet,...need I go on? Double Standards...dualistic vision...burning bridges, strange decision...


There is no double standard. Human rights/natural rights are all attached to the human conditions.

This qualifies every human being to give one's opinions relatively to infringements of the so called natural/human rights.

Hijacking humanity has positives. It also has negatives. One is no human, no matter the cultural system one is part of, is excluded from witnessing and acknowledging the natural/human rights infringements.

And once again, it leads to another consequence.
As US citizens would prefer to keep a monopoly on human conditions, and that human condition is a given, they have to articifically split humanity in several categories: human beings (who incidentally can discuss natural/human rights), sub human beings and non human beings.

US citizenism at work.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:35 | 2489340 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

You are 1% correct and 99% off the mark my once friend. Your hubris is alarming. 

All good. And good luck. And unlike your dire-ness, I really do wish you well.


Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:11 | 2489538 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

I can feel yur alarm, but it may prove in the end to have very little to do with my hubris. It appears yu are not used to being called to account for errors of judgement. That should have been a part of yur naval training.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 22:22 | 2490146 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Joyful, Gully is a fucking coward...there, it needed to be said.

You were right...he ran


I say again...Gully is a fucking coward.

Mon, 06/04/2012 - 00:49 | 2490850 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

the correct term would be jackal.

these critters spend their lives lurkin till the moment somebody else takes a victim down, then they's their thing.

Mon, 06/04/2012 - 18:50 | 2493900 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I noticed that.

I also noticed Gully still hasn't backed up his slander (now days later)...because he can't. Which tells one all they need to know about him going forward.

Take care, seeya round the Hedge ;-)

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:16 | 2488778 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact.


Excellent. US citizenism is a recursive, self feeding phenomenum.

US citizens have this knack at creating fantasy they later consider as part of reality.

It also shows how US citizens are keen on worshipping tales.

Lets put back this bit of fantasy and relish on it to see the power of denial, of dismissal of immediate reality US citizens can display.

So it is the movie. The tyler durden character is purely fictional. The actors are not though. The script writers are not though.

So you've got a guy (Pitt or Norton, does not matter) who is led to utter words like:

We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we wont. And we're slowly learning the fact.

In their duplicitous nature, US citizens can appear as perfect saps.

Norton and Pitt, both raised on television to believe that one day they'd be millionaires and movies gods.

And guess what? They are. Milionaires and movies gods.

And they are making money by claiming that they are slowly learning the fact.


Not a single second of disbelief. US citizens are relayed a message by a guy who examplifies how the message is untrue but wait, US citizens prefer to dig into the fantasy rather than coping with the reality just at hand.

That the actor who delivers the message is the perfect counter example of the speech he delivers.

That is why the future of US citizens is so promisiong. You know, it is quite of usual for US citizens to body count the slaughters performed by others, diminishing their own but with such prospective talents among them, well, it will take a lot of fantasy to hide the US citizen future achievements.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:46 | 2489377 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

The Chinese have terminally polluted a quarter of the globe, including the Western Pacific Ocean, which they've strip-mined of all life. Their country is a wasteland. Their government is a wasteland. Their people are a wasteland. Soon, one-third of men in China will be mateless because of their perverted abotions of female children. And you complain about US citizens??? Bwahahahahahah......

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:14 | 2488218 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

i prefer to get my check from the government and not to work for it myself.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 01:40 | 2488502 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Dood - no disrespect intended, but if yu really believe what yu wrote

...I'm a libertarian in socialist land...

yuv got some serious issues to reconcile. 

Firstly, Canuckistan, like the other 'commonwealth' states, is hardly "socialist" - a term which implies state planned is best described as fascism with a smily face...corporate controlled command economy with politician bumboys who come up through the ranks of the oligarchic resource companies or the pirate law firms which hang like barnacles all over the ship of state.  The sorry ass inhabitants are educated/indoctrinated to believe that they live in a "progressive" democratic land that practices 'fiscal conservatism' with a big cherry heart on top. As long as property values keep going up, everybody is along for the ride....socalled socialists, liberals, conservatives, PQers, whatever.

Secondly, anybody who reads this disgrace for an article and continues to call themselves "libertarian" is showering in the same rain of plenty(o bullshit) that the author apparently believes is the bounty that his petro-club paymasters are to be lauded for.  Murray Rothbard would be turning in his grave to be included in this select company of loser corporate shilldom...whose writing style evokes the worst echoes of painfully obtuse undergrad essays written by slowdevelopers stuck in a "Randian" phase of development after everybody else got puberty done with and moved on to girls n other pursuits of manly virtue.

Yu would do well to disassociate yurself from the present company of Mr Miller and his (s)hinktank shills, and move into an exploration of what Rothbard and co were really about....the word starts with A, and ends with m...and is  what the Mt Pelerin industrialists decided to invent "libertarianism" for to cover up. Last thing we need here is more time wasting debate between the two poles of a dead dialectic.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:20 | 2488109 Gromit
Gromit's picture

I think its silly to characterize "environmentalists" as economic luddites or big government aficionados.

Like most everyone else, they are driven by money and power.

At the lowest level, its about controlling someone else at no cost to oneself. but  "environmentalism" is a gigantic industry generating billions in consultant's fees etc., with plenty of greenmail opportunities.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:17 | 2488226 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"they're just a bunch a greedy bankers too." i like that. still...there are a few who prefer nature "untouched by the worthless human." and i'm one of them actually. keep your Cities on the East Coast please! and shove all the people out there in there while you're at it! "if it takes the eviro-government fascist round up" to do it i say BRING IT ON! Long live the Grizzly Bear!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:18 | 2488230 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

You would think the Greenies and Luddites would turn themselves into soylent green tablets all for the greater glory of helping to reduce humankinds carbon footprint and environmental degradation.

When it comes to leadership, these folks are the first to head to the back of the line in order to pick the pockets of everyone in front of them.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:31 | 2489607 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Right. The intellectual dishonesty of those groups is that they avail themselves of the very things they savage - jets, cars, stores, plastic, fossil fuels and media (made possible by modern industry). They are the opposite of the knowledge revolution.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:31 | 2489608 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Right. The intellectual dishonesty of those groups is that they avail themselves of the very things they savage - jets, cars, stores, plastic, fossil fuels and media (made possible by modern industry). They are the opposite of the knowledge revolution.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:32 | 2488274 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

In my experience the huggiest of the tree huggers hinge their world view on more of a religious basis, worship of Gaia or something like that. It often comes with the 'Myth of the Natural Man', the belief that humans were noble and environmentally friendly before technology tainted us darkness. They toyally ignore the mass extinctions that followed prehistoric man's entry into the Americas and Australia. I find it sad because this subject has been as divided as the Right/Left false dichotomy. Either believe that humans amd technology are evil and we're killing the world with our pollution or admit that you are an Earth-raping monster. I chose door number three.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:18 | 2488779 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Door number three: I am a US citizen. I am not killing the Earth. I am just profiting from the destruction of the environment, taking the benefits and pushing the losses onto others.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:26 | 2488863 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Door number 4 for yu Chu-mly...long drop to hollow earth...then take tramway to visit rich relations in San Fran...get passport n shiny bling...throw away anti-colonialist rhetoric for ride on interstate with specialimport foreign devil sport car.

What yáll are witnessing here is the beginnings of the next phase of the cabbalist grand plan...their eastern dupes are stirring in these pages...with the änticololonial schitck that is really just metaphor for Get Whitey=the repressed rage of the scions of eastern elites who never make it to the top in their respective societies, and need to invent a strawman\bogeyman argument to protect them from facing up to the truth of their own failings...

Watch for days to come, the slow corrosive drip of ant-UScitizenism will cover the intended victims in the west just like the chemtrailed poisons in their sky...notice how much smoother this bot is getting already?!?!...he's even finding an audience!/of self hating Euromerikans ready for the stockyard prod...cabbalist magic requires the victim to feel despoiled and unworthy...then guilt and fear of punishment...once they get yur sympathy...yur gone.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 09:46 | 2488888 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Ummmm. Quite a lot of fantasy.

Cabbalist grand plan? Led by whom? If you imply US citizen jews, flash news, just like the other US citizens, they are certainly not anti colonalists.

They are colonialists, just like your typical US citizen.

US citizenism at work.

As to the audience, US citizen love to fish for what they call like minded people to congregate around lies, defend the lies in group and find a sense of worth through this fight.

But that is for US citizens.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:02 | 2488913 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

I see that I got yur attention with that zinger...and we both know I got yur number two\to\too...right party member? My initial strategy was to ignore yur inane digressions here, but i can see now that yu are part of a systemic effort to not just degrade this forum, but to degrade the members' perception of themselves...

most dupes are un-witting dupes...yu may not even know what a cabbalist is, or even who yur controllers are...yur just content to roil in the 'fantasies' of yur expected rewards...but that is for chumps outta their depth, who get thrown under buses, not for smart fortune cookies like yu, right Chum-li!?!?!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:56 | 2488997 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Cryptic. As cryptic can be.

There is no cabbal. Only US citizenism at work, openly, the US citizen way.

While you are unable to name anyone, reporting in vague labels, like cabbalist, controller... well, the actors can be named: US citizens.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 05:16 | 2488688 Element
Element's picture


" ... Like most everyone else, they are driven by money and power. ..."


Almost, you forgot to include "lies" in that ... an endless spiel of twisted and tortured considered lies and deliberate misrepresentations have been the defining characteristic of political (alleged) 'environmentalism'.

The 'environmentalism' you concern yourself with when you're actually not interested in the environment's factual condition at all, you just like the idea of appearing to others to be all concerned about it, because you wish to trick others into thinking you're morally superior, and have a more considered and informed position, and are thus more deserving of being trusted and handed raw political power, for you to fuck-over, betray, damage and impair humanity in ways you've only been able to rampantly fanaticise and fantasise about, up until this point.

You go girly-men!


Same as it evah woz.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:21 | 2488113 printmoremoney
printmoremoney's picture

The basic question is: Are humans good? Followed up by, if so, what are they good for? And what is "good". It needs a clear definition. If you determine good is displayed by existing within the equilibrium of one's environment, humans are graded F-. But since we live on a planet peturbed by repeated mass extinctions (so the biological record shows). In the long run, all hedges lead to ZERO anyway. Be the Virus.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 06:17 | 2488713 Element
Element's picture

All those mass-extinctions led to explosions of species diversity and living abundance, ... and the SUM of these periodic events then produced humanity ... the greatest creature this planet has yet thus generated.

Show me a spotted owl that can see the light from a receding galaxy that was emitted 13 billion light years away with an orbiting telescope ... and I'll openly admit that that's one un-fucking-believably glorious spotted critter! ... but I already knew it was that, even if it can't do such things.

Until then I'll just have to suppose that humans and their potential greatness is the most spectacular achievement and phenomena in all of known material and immaterial existence.

Flu viruses didn't wring their metaphorical hands in guilt-ridden sobbing, when they wiped out 20% of humanity in 1918.

Maybe we shouldn't feel so bad about being this fucking glorious, ... and temporary ... eh? ... the fossil record is where we're bound ... and so is everything else that lives. ... it is infinity that lives ... we are just its corse expression.  And infinity can create an infinity of new species.

Does it really matter when we or the other species we wipe out get deposited in the fossil record? ... I suspect not.

There's no danger of the life that is infinity ending up in the fossil-record though, it's impossible for infinity to go extinct, it will just go on creating infinite variations and expressions of the master Life, that is its very essence.

Carry on humanity ignore the rabble that's booing stupidly from the cheap-seats.


Yes, its time for another little musical interlude, diggit bitches!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 15:33 | 2489611 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Element for Prez!!!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:21 | 2488114 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

In other news... civil war in Venezuela coming??

Venezuela bans private gun ownership

Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:07 | 2488200 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I don't know why you were junked for that. There must be some government trolls lurking.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:21 | 2488240 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


You understand with Chavez all sickly and the US pumping money into the "opposition" the move to ban guns makes sense.

We have tried to oust Chavez a number of times and failed miserably.

You want a Syria or another Mexico just south of us?

Cause you know that shit is gonna flow north making it worse than it is now.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:01 | 2488331 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"We have tried to oust Chavez a number of times and failed miserably."

No we really haven't. A .308 or .50 works just fine and done...hell if we didn't want them to know who, we'd use 7.62×54mmR.

Same finger pointing, still same result.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:03 | 2488769 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture



Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:04 | 2488337 delacroix
delacroix's picture

things keep going the way they are, we will be mexico.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 00:17 | 2488458 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"things keep going the way they are, we will be mexico."

Where you can't drink the water and the air is filthy.  Rand fucking paradise in practice.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:29 | 2488125 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

I'm going to argue another way. 

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people painted their roofs white. 

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people used geothermal heating/cooling. 

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people bought cars that got 1 mpg more. 

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if jets travelled 10 mph slower.

Does that make sense?



Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:06 | 2488197 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Hell let's just go all the way then.


All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people didn't own homes.

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people didn't need energy to heat the homes they mo longer own 

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if people didn't own cars.

All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if jets never existed

We can't just conserve our way out of it. It requires conservation as well as bring more forms of energy on line. Does that make sense?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:14 | 2488212 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Except Stuck On Zero's point was that -- contrary to complete asshat logic such as yours and the author of this article -- there are answers other than 0 or 1.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:32 | 2488276 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Hey dip shit if you read what I said it takes a combination of conservation and new enrgy production. Stuck On Zero's point was only about conservation. If that is our only focus then we will conserve ourselves to zero...idiot.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:53 | 2488315 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"All of the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved if jets never existed."

Quote -- dipshit.  

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:01 | 2488328 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Hey Rand I was carrying out his argument to the nth degree. Show me one place in his original post where he mentions anything other than conservation when it comes to transportation.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:23 | 2488385 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Why are you carrying out his argument to the nth degree?  His argument stood on its own, and the only reason to take it to the "nth degree" is that you have no actual response to what he said.  So you take it to an absurd extreme that was not advocated.  We do not need to rape our environment.  You want to because it is convenient to you and you assume someone else will pay for it.   

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:38 | 2488400 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You are either stupid or too ideologically bound to understand anything that doesn't fit into your little world view. I will say it again. He only offered solutions that focused on conservation. My point is that conservation on it's own is not a solution. Maybe you can show me some place in my post where I advocated the ravaging of our environment.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:52 | 2488425 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Wow.  Are you intentionally dense or just... the other?   The author of this article suggests that exploitation of his precious tar sands is necessary in order to meet demand.  Stuck on Zero is suggesting that the net amount of energy that would be created by ravaging the environment as part of the author's advocated orgy of earth raping could be offset with a slight decrease in demand through conservation.  Explain why Stuck on Zero is incorrect that the small increased supply of the author's beloved tar sands can be offset by the decreased demand occasioned by the conservation he suggested.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:11 | 2488635 Lowest Common D...
Lowest Common Denominator's picture

Near as I can tell, your point resides on top of your head.  Wallowing, swinelike, in reducto absurdum displays is no way to face a post paradigm shifted future.  Your consumption is not sacred.  Look it up.  The responsibility to adapt or perish is on you, not reality.  Opportunity cost is a bitch, and she's in heat again.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 10:02 | 2488914 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

And what happens when most simiplistic or easy ways to adapt are blocked in one fashion or another?  Lets play hide the technology and see what happens.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 07:22 | 2488783 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

He only offered solutions that focused on conservation.


Conservation? Nope. Only consumption.

Painting roofs white consumes. Not conserves. Flying jets 10 mph less is consumption, no conservation.

US citizen economics is all hinged around consumption. Dont picture it as it could accomodate conservation.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:23 | 2488245 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Dr. Engali

All the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved by Environmentalists and Hipsters committing suicide en masse.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:55 | 2488320 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

All the energy produced by the tar sands would not match the energy saved by Randers committing suicide en masse.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:07 | 2488346 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You're really hung up on this whole Rand thingy aren't you?

Is it the refusal to bow blindly to authority or the individual freedom that upsets you so?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:19 | 2488377 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The only individual freedom that matters to people like LetThemEatRand is their own. Everybody else is to be oppressed

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:27 | 2488387 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Circle jerk time ;(

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:15 | 2488638 potlatch
potlatch's picture

Randians are on an amazing journey to the center of awesomeness, themselves.  We are lucky to be alive to witness it.  Glory!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:20 | 2488223 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Global warming already making an impact on humans: 


Stay or go? Some towns eyeing retreat from sea


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:29 | 2488265 Pizza man
Pizza man's picture


Domestic energy production trumps your conservation bullshit every time. Why? Because next week you'll be telling us to buy a car that gets 2 MPG better and then 4 and then 10, but never duscuss the reasons people drive larger cars, or use gas to heat their homes over geothermal. 


Once we fly 10MPH slower and save energy doing so, we fly 10 miles more becuase of the savings.Simple fact.

DOPE. The market finds the smartest/best equilibrium for price and usage.




Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:58 | 2488326 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

"Once we fly 10MPH slower and save energy doing so, we fly 10 miles more becuase of the savings.Simple fact."

So once we rape our land some more we'll just use that energy and need to rape more with no net benefit?    You do realize that you're making the exact opposite point of your intention, yes?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:08 | 2488351 delacroix
delacroix's picture

all the pollution produced, mining the tar sands, is a small fraction of the pollution produced by global coal seam fires, which have been burning for decades.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:35 | 2488138 Hobbleknee
Hobbleknee's picture

Another example: The Hardon Supercollider. 

It could form small black holes and eat the earth, but the scientists say the holes would probably close, so why the hell not?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:27 | 2488258 AUD
AUD's picture

The Hard-on supercollider?

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:00 | 2489151 Hulk
Hulk's picture

I have one of those !!!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:06 | 2488306 Unique Snowflake
Unique Snowflake's picture


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:05 | 2488343 Unique Snowflake
Unique Snowflake's picture

My hardon supercollided with a small black hole last night, which I then proceeded to eat. Sure enough, it later closed. The scientists were right. Nothing to worry about. A good time was had by all.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:17 | 2488639 potlatch
potlatch's picture

yeah, well, next time watch your particles.  They ended up spraying all over the place. A detector was triggered in Italy fercrissakes.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 21:38 | 2488142 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

I have no problem with the mining of tar sands. It does show how desperate the world is for fossil fuels for transportation. I think it is about 1 barrel of oil in for every 4-5 out. This is profitable and thus will be done more and more if oil prices stay high.

I have studied up a bit on the tar sands extraction and it truely is testament to engineering genius of the highest order. I do not doubt it provides loads of good paying jobs and revenue for Canada. There is little reason to believe greens are going to stop this.

The truth about oil is that there is nothing quite like it for energy content and ease of transport and use. Thus even tar stuck in sand can be a profitable resource to extract.

I think there will be a long future for the Candian tar sands. The world as it is presently structured is addicted to oil as THE main fuel. That will change someday, but not for the present. These are just facts. The possible long term effects of massive tar sands extraction will play out over the coming decades. Canadians have a right to do as they wish in their own country. I don't get where Canadian government is evil and stopping tar sands operations, if anything, they are facilitating it. Give me some examples of where Canadian government has stepped in and stopped tar sands operations.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:21 | 2488241 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

doesn't to me. it says to me "the last thing anyone wants is imagination" in this "Burger King economy." I mean natural gas vehicles can give you 100 mpg...for the gasoline equivalent of 1 buck a gallon. So why don't we do it? Because the GOAL is failure. "And they got the government they wanted" i might add. Ironically enough however "i don't think blowing up your banks was part of the answer." Ooooops!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 23:17 | 2488374 delacroix
delacroix's picture

cng is sold in  gge  gallon of gas equivelent. mileage, is slightly less, but the cost is 1/4.  the emissions, are low enough, to meet standards, without a catalytic converter. diesels, can be converted to run around 70/30 cng to diesel, and meet any future emission standard, with no new equipment needed.the fuel tanks, are kinda pricey.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 22:22 | 2488242 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

You said it James --

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 00:53 | 2488493 smb12321
smb12321's picture

Most zh posters are not chemists and are unaware that the gas molecule is the most powerful in existence excepting nucLear, Stronger than TNT, C4, you name it). We use gas and oil because nothing yet matches it deficiency and power.

To the morons still yapping about efforts to suppress alternative energies - obviously you have not read any recent literature or seen the billions spent in R&D. After all vast wealth comes to breakthroughs,"

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 03:23 | 2488644 potlatch
potlatch's picture

I tend to side with the chemists.  And while I love environmentalists on principle, when I see someone fighting a foregone conclusion -- like fracking, or tar sands, or GM foods -- I do recognize, they are not one of the smart ones.


Very few smart environmentalists sadly. They mostly fight already decided battles, it seems to me.  Lack of vision?  Or lack of reason?  But the general ideal -- environmental sustainability -- is flawless: its advocates seem to be way too stupid to know what to do with it, however.

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