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Guest Post: The Death Of China Cult

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Submitted by Also Sprach Analyst,

People in Hong Kong have a long history of mistrust of China. This city, after all, was a colony of the British Empire for more than a century, and has only been under Chinese rule (under one country two system, to be precise) for a mere 15 years. In this city, you seldom hear anything bad about Britain (because most have no idea), but you hear a lot of bad things about China, particularly the Chinese Communist Party. We just never trust them.

While the mistrust of the political class of China continues in Hong Kong (and will certainly continue for much longer), the doubts on the strength of the Chinese economy and the doubts on the ability of the political class to manage the economy have more or less evaporated after 15 years of Chinese rule.

It used to be that Hongkongers go to China to purchase really cheap stuff. Now, it is the Mainland Chinese who come to Hong Kong to buy really expensive stuff. Places in China which were farmlands are now full of modern buildings. Infrastructures in large cities are getting better, sometimes even better than Hong Kong. Before the transfer of sovereignty, Hong Kong was already a rich city while China was a very poor country. China used to be poor, dirty, relatively uncivilised, you name it. Today, it almost as if this city would have died if the Chinese economy did not grow at the rate as it did in the past decade. China today, especially for big city like Shanghai, is just like Hong Kong: modern, international, classy.  You can’t say many things bad about cities like Shanghai.

No one would ever dispute the achievement of the Chinese economy What we see in China now, on the surface at least, is progress. And the progress was huge indeed.  For 30 years or more, the Chinese economy has defied “gravity”, and has never been in a recession, and has lifted enormous number of people out of poverty. Predictably, the perception on the Chinese economy has changed very dramatically over the past decade, from a market that you wanted to stay away from to a market that no one wants to miss.

Chinese equities as something to be avoided is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but less than a decade ago, you could quite easily find people who had some serious doubts on investing in China. On the macro level, the story of “China as the forthcoming greatest economic power” was not yet the biggest story, even though everyone knew that China was growing very fast. On a micro level, many held the impression that Chinese companies were either not well run, or were run by crooks, who cooked up their books and/or produce very inferior products simply to rip people off.  On top of that, the Chinese government cooks up statistics, and doubters spin that in their own favour, suggesting that the economy could not have grown that fast.  Meanwhile, corruptions were rampant.  Businessmen bribed government officials in order to profit, while government officials got rich through taking massive amount of bribes. 

china_flagIf you insisted on that grim view on China in early 2000s (right after the Chinese government lied about SARS, as a reminder of who were the type of people who ran the government), although you would have missed the bull market in stocks (which ended in 2007 by the way), such grim view was not necessarily inaccurate.  Since the beginning of time (well, that’s an exaggeration of course), China has the creativity and necessary skills in creating fake and low quality products beyond anyone’s imagination, which are sometimes dangerous for human consumption. We also knew that corruption in China was horrible since the beginning of time (and this is not an exaggeration, as that has been a recurring theme of the rise and fall of different dynasties ever since Imperial China): you couldn’t possibly not bribe officials if you want to do business and be successful in China, while for government officials, you can’t possibly be not corrupt if you want to have a successful career as a civil servant (and by successful, it really means climbing up the ranks while continuing to be bribed without being caught or something).  Banks would lend to whoever with connections to government officials (i.e. those who have bribed government officials) so that it requires extra faith for investors to believe in banks’ books. And as a businessman, as long as you have great connections with government officials, banks would probably still be willing to lend to your company cheaply even though you are cooking up your books.  Finally, no one has ever believed in Chinese statistics in full at face value, and with a political regime which is obsessed with promoting their own achievements, doubters are justified in believing the statistics are purposefully massaged to make them look great.

These are the problems for China in the past.  But if all these problems with China sound familiar to you, it should, because they are more or less what increasing number of people are talking about. These are not just history, but current reality.  China is still full of businessmen who make crap products that are dangerous for human consumption. Corruption is as serious as it was, if not more so. You still have to bribe officials to achieve your goals successfully (and the costs of bribing officials to achieve your goal, as I understand, are getting ever higher), and government officials cannot have a successful career without being corrupt. Banks have not changed their practices in determining who to lend money to, so as long as you have good relationship with government officials, you can get cheap loans even you did not actually own the collateral you are posting to banks, and as long as you can get loans, you can’t possibly go bust even if you are already insolvent and are cooking up books (as long as the officials that you have connection with are still around and well).  Finally, there is still no one who is willing to believe in Chinese statistics in full at face value.

The only difference between the recent years and  ten years or so ago is that people just ignore it now, because the extraordinary bull market and the seemingly unstoppable economic growth has created a China cult, a cult among investing community that China is the best place to be investing in.  Just as hedge fund manager Hugh Hendry said “10 years are enough to create a cult in capital market. In fact, China has not seen any year with negative growth for more than 30 years.

Despite the fact that the Chinese stock market bubble has gone bust in 2007, the whole China cult continues to get new followers.  After the bubble went bust and the Lehman crisis hit, quite a number of people were confident that the stock market will surpass the 2007 peak very soon because the Chinese economy has been strong.  The view that China became the best place to invest has become ever more popular as the Western economies looked mortally wounded after the crisis (while they are not).  The ever more popular idea that the economic weight has shifted from the East to the West, or the idea that we are back in a bipolar world for the first time since the end of the Cold War, and among many other ideas, have reinforced many people’s belief that China is the place to go.  Even to this date, we understand that there are a lot of European companies which are still looking to invest in China apparently because China looks “safer” relative to Europe.

In the beginning of the recovery of the global economy, investing in China did pay off well relative to many markets in the rest of the world, reinforcing the idea, once more, that China is really invincible, that China is the best place to invest.  The same doubters who did not invest in Chinese stocks 10 years ago because they thought companies cook up their books started to buy in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and 2012.  The same doubters who did not invest in Chinese stocks because of the worries on corruption are now accepting corruption as a reality and that it is something which determines whether a company can make money.  The same doubters who thought Chinese banks have understated non-performing loans started to believe that buying Chinese banks is like buying HSBC in the 1980s, which will give you a return in the order of hundreds of times over the next 3 decades.  Investors have also been much less careful about frauds as the cult reaches its climax, even though things have not changed. But instead of identifying the problems related to poor governance, frauds and corruption, some insist that these are isolated cases and have nothing to do with the culture of how businesses are done in China.  Also, while Chinese statistics are not reliable, more and more people are trying to spin the unreliable data to fit their own bullish arguments.  Instead of suggesting that growth is overstated, now they say consumption is understated, and the China consumption will be the biggest investment story of the era.

But Chinese equities outperformance did not last long: first in Shanghai, then in Hong Kong, they have turned from two of the best markets to markets doing even worse than Europe.  While a lot of investors were still very hopeful that stocks could get to the 2007 peak very soon, that is just not happening.  Bears like ourselves started to be ever more vocal about the structural problems in the Chinese economy since late 2010 and 2011, namely, real estate bubble, over-capacity across the economy, over-investment and the associated unsustainable increase debt etc., and we are getting ever more concerned about issues that we did not mention much: corruption and its link of over-investment, and the consequence of lack of inflationBears have got it right for almost 2 years now as far as stock investments are concerned, and the economy is now slowing down rapidly while the real estate market cools, just as the bears have predicted. Unfortunately, people increasingly blame short-sellers instead of admitting that they have been wrong.

Still, the cult has not died yet.  The past few years have produced an impression of the Chinese government that it is invincible, and it has miraculous control over the economic machine, that the slowdown is “intentionally” engineered by the government and everything within the economy is still very much under control.  Unfortunately, most who use this argument to justify that the slowdown is not a big problem have all invariably forgotten that most economic slowdowns in recent memories started with central banks tightening monetary policy to control inflation and slow down the economy, and most, if not all, of the cases ended with recession that they did not want to get into.  Many have also not realised how difficult it would be for China to relate its way out of a debt deflationSo how different China is in this regard is totally beyond our comprehension, and we are forced to suggest that the believers of China cult have gone delusional.

As the economic slowdown becomes a reality and a hard landing unavoidable, more of the problems we have identified will surface. The cult will surely die within the next few years at most. The only questions are when it will finally die, and whether it will suffer a violent death or slow death.

 


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Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:05 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Who to trust?

Trust no one!

Hold your own wealth!

July 13th, buy silver!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:11 | Link to Comment Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Belief in a cult or belief in the truth? Ignorance is bliss until the money vanishes.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:32 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

 Finally, no one has ever believed in Chinese statistics in full at face value, and with a political regime which is obsessed with promoting their own achievements, doubters are justified in believing the statistics are purposefully massaged to make them look great.

Wow, it's a real shame they don't have reliable, objective government statistics to use like we have here in the West :-P

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:37 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Not to put silver down, but it's an extremely speculative PM.

Gold is for saving.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:02 | Link to Comment The Monkey
The Monkey's picture

China.

Yeah, maybe in 5 years it goes kaboom. Until then, they will be buying iPhones like mad.

Don't be a chump.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:52 | Link to Comment oddjob
oddjob's picture

Blatant speculation on the short side.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:20 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Moron, fool, idiot. Silver prices track gold prices but always incrrease in larger proportion; also, Silver will not be confisticated. What else was it you wanted to know? Why are you so stupid ? I don't know.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 04:48 | Link to Comment Lebensphilosoph
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Two wrongs make not a right.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:16 | Link to Comment Martin W
Martin W's picture

Trust no one! /Fox Mulder

 

The truth is out there

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:21 | Link to Comment Waffen
Waffen's picture

what's July 13th?

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:26 | Link to Comment veyron
veyron's picture

Who is the owner of the juggernauts in your avatar?

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:32 | Link to Comment ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

you guys negotiate, we all win.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:15 | Link to Comment Marginal Call
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http://www.primecurves.com/demi-scott-getting-wet/

 

google image search is awesome. 

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 20:38 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
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Finally, some information I can actually use.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
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A silver bomb.  We will buy the silver off of the shelves, creating massive demand, and lighting JPM's shorts on fire!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 23:43 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I hope you realize silver is highly speculative compared to gold.

See FOFOA for why.

edit:  All you twats junking me better Ixquick FOFOA and learn something, bitchez!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 21:43 | Link to Comment Cosimo de Medici
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I thought all of you "backed up the truck" when it fell from $48 to $42, or $37 to $32, or $35 to $27, or every day Ag is "on sale"? Damn you guys must earn money hand over fist if after unloading all of your fiat to buy at "less than $4" like 90% claim, you still have enough buckets of fiat remaining to trash JPM.  I really must have chosen the wrong profession.  What, do you guys all cheat on Disability Insurance or something to pull in all the extra moolah?  And with all that disposable cash you and the 99% are sitting on, Blythe has got to be shaking in her Manalo Blahniks.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 23:44 | Link to Comment LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

I sometimes suspect TPTB are herding the sheeple into silver.

It makes sense, since the chances of silver being used as a reserve asset is about 100 times less than gold.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:34 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

It's irrellevant; you're a fool. the price tracks the gold price, but makes bigger percentage gains. "Reserve Asset" means nothing; the market decides how worried people are. Stand by to have your eyes opened.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 21:43 | Link to Comment philipat
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A hard landing in China? 5% economic growth. Eat your heart out.

Oh, and by the way, in absolute terms, 5% groth on a $10 Trillion economy is the same as 10% groeth on a $5 Trillion economy. It;s called the law of large numbers.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:17 | Link to Comment BigJim
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ZH propounding US Citizenism as usual, China central planners greatest  in World.

Price discovery not necessary in unicorn-enabling Middle kingdom.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:18 | Link to Comment magpie
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...all the while EU-citizenism is being propounded in the USA.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:34 | Link to Comment trilliontroll
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The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. When in a state of security he does not forget the possibility of ruin. When all is orderly, he does not forget that disorder may come. Thus his person is not endangered, and his States and all their clans are preserved.
Confucius
Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC)
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:52 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

Virginity like bubble; one prick, all gone.

Man who run in front of car soon get tyred.

Man who run behind car soon get exhausted.

Foolish man give wife grand piano, wise man give wife upright organ.

Man who walk through airport turnstile sideways going to Bangkok.

Man with one chopstick go hungry.

Man who eat many prunes get good run for money.

Panties not best thing on earth! but next to best thing on earth.

Wife who put husband in doghouse soon find him in cat house.

Man who fight with wife all day get no piece at night.

It take many nails to build crib, but one screw to fill it.

Man who stand on toilet is high on pot.

Crowded elevator smell different to midget.

                        - Things Confucius ~probably~ didn't say

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:21 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

Subtleness of sublime Chinese citizenism being beyond your clumsy roundeye swinging penis bignose gripping, US American European US Citizen can only mocking and makes funnies in face of proud Chinese conformity of culture and norms ruling.

Smack!, so say they.

Behind the silliness of you I see ugly face of American US citizenism warlordism and consumption making, who seek to engulf all resources and world power for sake of roadcar culture of suburbs spreadingness and mall stripping.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 22:57 | Link to Comment azzhatter
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Ananomolous said penis

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:50 | Link to Comment Arnold Ziffel
Arnold Ziffel's picture
To write with a broken pencil is . . . pointless.  When fish are in schools they sometimes . . . take debate.  A thief who stole a calendar . . . got twelve months.  When the smog lifts in Los Angeles . . . U.C.L.A.
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 20:46 | Link to Comment Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Actually I'm quite sure China's central planners ARE the best in the world.

Reminds me of an old Russian central planner who got asked, "you call your latest 5-year plan the 'Optimal Plan.' How can you be so sure?"

He replied, "We are the smartest, best educated men the Soviet Union has to offer. We worked hard to produce the best plan we possibly could. Therefore, it is the Optimal Plan."

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:09 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

The pricks at AnAnonymous hardest hit.

The cult will surely die within the next few years at most. The only questions are when it will finally die, and whether it will suffer a violent death or slow death.

Remember what I told you a couple weeks ago AnAnon.  All those extra Poly Tech and Norinco SKS's and Mak-90's that were stacked up ready for shipping and didn't get moved when the Clinton ban took hold just didn't evaporate.  Somewhere out there there's a shit ton of munitions buried, just waiting for your masters to show the slightest weakness.

Your paradox is to choose when to jump.  Choose wisely, else you'll be right out of the pan and into the fire, dragged with your masters down the street and then riddled.

Happy 4th of July!

 

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:05 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

You being decadent Westerners they, sad and mighty the laughter of my belly at the yous!

Inadmissable it is that you find the Chinese way as, knowing such as you are how Chinese are leaving you behind in the soil. 

As USA citizen roadcar racers are say, eat my powder!

USA like senile masturbating monkley at zoo, peoples doing laughing and mocking of it but it not reaching the realization.

Chinese citizens will soon have USA masturbating senile monkley in cage, all making laughter at him.

Rising Chinese star, sinking USA shiny-dome eagle. 

So sad, for American US citizens.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:22 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

Weeell, then AnAnonymous mission must be considered a success with his meme spreading...i just wonder if there are graphical representations/meme generators already to go with it. 

Nevertheless, i wish Americans a happy Independence Day to reflect and perhaps also celebrate their Founding Fathers' ideals.  

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:30 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

4 July,1776: a day that will live in infamous!

Birthing day of US Citizenism, cause of all grief and sorrow in world.

Should be day of morning for world, not firepopping and celebarations of mass eating of corn on the stick and grilling of meats. 

Shame, shame on American US citizens for celebarating the spreading of US Citizenism!

But typical, yes, of them.  Like steeling food from starving childsren and make laughing of it.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:36 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

Like i have said before, best to have a Young Ladies Illustrated Primer to US citizenism

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 00:28 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
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AnAnomalous said:

4 July,1776: a day that will live in infamous!

Day of 1776,July,4th being 100 year anniversary celebration of George Washington and King Henry VIII using US citizenism and time traveling Ben Franklinism to sink Easter Island.

Eastern Island blobbed down so that US of A could blob up. Indeed, 1776,July,4th possessing much amount of infamousity.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:10 | Link to Comment hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

And the progress was huge indeed. For 30 years or more, the Chinese economy has defied “gravity”, and has never been in a recession, and has lifted enormous number of people out of poverty...

...and a few of them, even, in China.

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:39 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Very Few. And, almost without exception is Chinese Communist "money".

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:14 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Was 1998 really that long ago?                   Is anyone really surprised?

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:17 | Link to Comment moskov
moskov's picture

When China slows, that means China dies.

When US/EUROPE/JAPAN literally being nuclear destroyed, euro destroyed, dollar destroyed. They are still bullish and sound.

 

Yeah. Too bad it's up to the Chinese to price the West's life support

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Aziz
Aziz's picture

China and the West have the same problem: the misallocation of labour/capital/resources.

Only a market— the cumulative preferences of the entire society — can allocate resources in a way that will bear the fruit of long-term prosperity.

Given that everyone is now a centrally planned mess I find it plausible that China — while certainly having massive problems — may not actually be as bad as the unwinding imperialism of Western nations, particularly America. China's economy is technically less government-oriented (as a percentage of GDP) than America.

Hard landing for everyone — but at least China were up in the air to begin with.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:30 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 "China and the West have the same problem:"

~~~

Central planning... there... fixed it...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:20 | Link to Comment dexter bland
dexter bland's picture

China and the East have a bigger problem. They don't have enough domestic consumer demand so rely on the west to provide them with the markets for the shit that they are admittedly very good at producing cheaply. Problem only arises when you start putting your best customers out of work and they can't afford to buy any more.

Even in the West we are taught to believe that saving for the future is virtuous and spending freely is dangerous. Dangerous for the individual, but healthy for society - "The paradox of thrift". Many analysts seem to have just assumed China would go the way of the other Asian tigers and use exports to the West as a launchpad for building their own self-sustainable economy. Only problem is that China is orders of magnitude bigger. There's no way they can achieve the same goal without hurting the source of their demand - OR - encouraging their own citizens to adopt Western profligate ways.

The latter is a possibility but may take a very long time.

 

 

 

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:18 | Link to Comment kato
kato's picture

Interesting. Thanks.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:19 | Link to Comment Northeaster
Northeaster's picture

This post is a little late, it was posted on NC in the early am hours.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:33 | Link to Comment nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

The data presented isn't really time sensitive...and the original post is from 2 days ago, so what?

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:20 | Link to Comment free market dreamer
free market dreamer's picture

Yes, China will crash and burn just like the good ol' USA.... But... But... But... China doesn't have a populace that is fat, lazy and with entitilement issues... China's population will be able to at least float on top of the waters of a collapsed economy... Americans will mostly sink to the bottom... Who's in better shape to build from the destruction of fiat/debt money? China... And who also has their hand in natural resources globally? China. They know the game is up, just biding their time like everyone else but positioned a little more nicely...

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:05 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

If everything crashes, the USA is Russia 2, a petro state with a large navy.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:22 | Link to Comment FREEEEEEEEEDOM
FREEEEEEEEEDOM's picture

Men are versatile and very adaptable, if the enviroment premiers lazyness thats what you get. Theres nothing wrong with the American gene, on the contrary i would argue that the American genepool is the finest of the earth. We Europeans lost alot of great men to your continent the last few hundred years, brave men who had a lust for freedom, brave men who believed in the ideals of liberty. You surely cant believe these fine traits somehow just vanished? No, they are lurking in the shadows behind years of oppression waiting to show its full wrath once again. Long live the ideals of freedom, long live the idea of sovereignty, the bells of tolerance and liberty will ring so fuckin loud every bankster and crook will regret the day they were born!

 

Happy 4th July my brothers, someday i will join you in the great land of yours, but for now, we have an old world to defend.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:53 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

The Chinese are less than one generation from a farming economy.  80% of the populous still can weave a simple fishing net themselves and catch a meal.   The west is several generations removed and when the electricity fails, they panic.  The Chinese go on as if nothing happened.

 

Yes, the western gene should still be strong.  I would like to think I could rise to the occasion, but the fucking little things, like learning how to survive, would really slow me down compared to the average Chinese. 

And to all you preppers with your canned food, magnesium fire starters, and shotguns, that not how it works in the real world.

Eat Bitter.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:20 | Link to Comment levelworm
levelworm's picture

Since the beginning of time (well, that’s an exaggeration of course), China has the creativity and necessary skills in creating fake and low quality products beyond anyone’s imagination,

 

I really like this sentence.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:27 | Link to Comment moskov
moskov's picture

This guy must be retarded in knowing some real history.

 

I feel sorry for him

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:43 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Too many "fire crackers"  moskov

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:28 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:35 | Link to Comment Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

"The biggest thing for me is that that there were no bodies," she said.

Leonardi, 56, remembers the burning pine and jet fuel stinging her nostrils. She said she also remembers a smoldering crater littered with debris too small to associate with the jetliner or 40 passengers and crew on board.

Ex-FBI Employee Claims She Saw Angels at Flight 93:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fbi-employee-claims-angels-flight-93-16704361

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:47 | Link to Comment francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

amazing too that the 'crater' from Flight 93, showed up on geological survey fotos taken years before the crash...

Simply AMAZING (the 'coincidences' that we've all experienced in our lifetimes)...

 

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:48 | Link to Comment Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

Amazing that people in the 20th century still believe in bullshit like "angels". It's never been "angels". It's extraterrestrials. Ancient aliens. Ask Giorgio Tsoukalos.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:07 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 All for one,and One for all? We all interpret the same things in different ways.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 19:28 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

That is why Henry Kissinger still looks the same as when he was Secretary of State.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:36 | Link to Comment Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

Instead of suggesting that growth is overstated, now they say consumption is understated, and the China consumption will be the biggest investment story of the era.

The Chinese consume (they actually drink more beer than anyone else in the world).....but not like Americans. 

The Chinese don't buy things because they *want* them; the Chinese buy things because they *need* them.

The only real huge "growth" sector in Asia is either gaming or electronics...two things that the government either strictly controls, or bans outright (minus their "laissez faire" zones like Macau......which BTW, for a Communist country to have "laissez faire" zones is just....I mean......it's just LOL.  For Christ sakes, when the Communists are ideologically corrputed....)

Plus, the population has always been a history of savers.  Unlike some of us, who buy PMs for speculation, the average Chinese worker invests in Gold and Silver because they know, throughout the years of time, from their generation to the 100s before it, that it has ALWAYS appreciated in value and can be an important part of not only securing a future for your next generation(s) life quality, but also a good luck charm symbol of prudency and patience. 

The Chinese people (not the government; governments are created to fail) won't outlast collasped economies because they work harder. 

You think we deal with shit?  Read the Chinese twitter, Weibo, sometime.

They are some patient motherfuckers, those Chinese.  And ironically, the most impatient out of all of them, are the Communists who run the country.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:47 | Link to Comment sullymandias
sullymandias's picture

Communists, sure, but to understand modern China, you have to understand that the Communist Party there was the first power structure that was able the get China out from underneath the heals of western imperialism. The Chinese are not idealistic like us with all our clinging to abstract political theories. Why do you think China is able to be "communist" and at the same time, have a market economy?

Western imperialism crushed China for over a century and a half, and I can assure you the Chinese have not forgotten that.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:03 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

Insights bold and mighty, I hail the astuteness of you!

As both we know, all imperialist historys the production of US-European anti-Chinese citizens, who want always but not give value in return, produce not but consume much, like gluttons of things being they, spirits adrift in fogs of war and TV.

Westernism and US Citizenism (same things, by way) is a dead-ending road on pathway to Hell.

Chinese Citizenism is one true path to collective glory.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 00:39 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnomalous said:

Westernism and US Citizenism (same things, by way) is a dead-ending road on pathway to Hell.

Westernism road on pathway to Hell having roadsides cluttered with fully operational US citizenism flush toilets and full rolls of US citizen "bath tissue".

Much bad smell of US citizenism unless they remember to wiping of ass and then flushing.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 07:15 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Westernism and US Citizenism (same things, by way) is a dead-ending road on pathway to Hell.

_______________________________

Typical US citizen expansion of the base to dilute responsibility.

Many US citizens would like to label US citizenism as westernism.

The reality is though that the West has harboured many different systems than US citizenism and US citizenism is adopted in places outside the West.

One can perfectly be a westerner without being a proponent of US citizenism while one can be a non westerner and being a proponent of US citizenism.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 02:00 | Link to Comment potlatch
potlatch's picture

we remember it, too.  And we likee.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:40 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

"You think we deal with shit?  Read the Chinese twitter, Weibo, sometime. They are some patient motherfuckers, those Chinese."

 

Give this man a prize.  He gets it!!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:40 | Link to Comment sullymandias
sullymandias's picture

I think it's a pretty poor metric to judge China based on its stock market / investment opportunities. China's place in global geo-politics is much more interesting. What's the point in measuring per annum economic growth or whatever when the global economy is clearly due for a new, non-growth-based paradigm? Which country is best prepared for oil shortages? Food shortages? Who's got the rare earth metals? Who's got the gold? Who's got the best military? How well prepared is the military for oil shortages? All these questions are much more interesting the %GPD growth.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:37 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

Agree, the stock market is insignificant to the Chinese economy.

It's about property...

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:44 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Rare Earth metals are not rare. The name is an accident. There is a mine in Arkansas that can supply the United States for 200 years; the problem, of course, is the government; who are so concerned they might make "bad smelling water". Everything you imagine you know is false. It is 100% propaganda, without exception.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

China's economy is as fake, low quality and toxic as their worthless products - it's the biggest Ponzi scheme in history.

For all we know their economy could be contracting right now but those lying, corrupt motherfuckers would never own up to it.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:44 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

Spoken like truely US Citizen!

Scaredness of you very clear is the making.

Afraid of us hard working Chinese people taking jobs away you from and making credit slaves of governments of you?

Shoudl be.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 21:30 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnomalous say with english good bigly:

Afraid of us hard working Chinese people taking jobs away you from and making credit slaves of governments of you?

Shoudl be.

Ah, ah, commendations of very strongly dispatched to arrival of your place of being now destination. Apparent is commonly your english skills languaged with germination of fruitful ascent dangdang muchly.

Holding up upwards of sunlight in compare of that to US citizenism languagistical deterioratedness now here: your level platform being placed the very higher to US citizen languagism of withering and emaciated vigorously. Across the very generations of several.

US citizenism infused with brain enchantated massage texting enthralled. Resulting is clear US of A jobs of requirement languaging will taken to hard working Chinese people with yourself properly attained meritoriously.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 21:46 | Link to Comment michigan independant
michigan independant's picture

rabbit season duck season nun season. A Tibetan nun fleeing to exile in Nepal was killed by Chinese border patrol officers, with at least one other person in her group likely shot to death also. Vile nasty death cult

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 02:03 | Link to Comment potlatch
potlatch's picture

China is a ticking timb bomb of social mayhem waiting to happen.  A subtle tweak a subtle --- macho-ization.  Who knows what will trigger it?  A new hair gel?  I fashion for lifts?  You never know when your people are gonna go nuts, na, trust me, I was there.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 07:16 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

And the adoption of US citizenism will certainly not help that...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:34 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

Possible, very possible.  Lord knows that it was not long ago that the Chinese populous showed that it was as capable of mass insanity as any race, with the butchering of son against father, bother against brother during the cultural revolution.  However, it never ceases to amaze me how their sea of humanity bumping and sliding into each other 24 hours a day can stay so amazingly calm.  In the US, we would be pulling a gun on each other the minute someone rubbed against our ass.  In China, its almost like they are neutered or something, so calm... hardly any violent crime to speak of, and no, its NOT because they have a death penalty.  I think that is about the last reason.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 16:36 | Link to Comment potlatch
potlatch's picture

nice comment, and I agree.  On the one hand, the possibilities of unrest are staggering.  On the other, it is amazing, in the here and now, on a daily basis, how they simply do manage more or less "calmly".  You are right: we would be pulling guns and fighting in the streets.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 16:56 | Link to Comment kito
kito's picture

china is a CREDITOR NATION. it has no back breaking social obligations like medicaid, medicare, disability, snap program, section 8, etc. it is a country of 1.4 billion people, with a domestic market that has barely been tapped.......

u.s. is a DEBTOR NATION. it has massive social obligations that cannot be funded. it is a country with a domestic market that has been tapped out......

 

the citizens of china save their money, not swim in debt. china's currency is expanding its global influence, they are locking up commodities deals with africa and south america. china looks to the future.......

the citizens of u.s. blow every dollar they have, and then borrow more. u.s. currency is losing influence. it is too busy spending billions on protecting its last bastion of waning oil influence. u.s looks to hold on one more day, and doesnt look to the future......

china is eager for the day it can tell the u.s. to wipe its ass with treasury bonds. once it brings another 400 million people into the marketplace, they will gladly shut the doors on the u.s. 

u.s. is eager for the day it can print on a massive scale again............

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:29 | Link to Comment Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

China makes Bernake look like a piker when it comes to printing an currency manipulation.  They may be a creditor nation, but they have no collection agency.  

 

They have over a billion mouths to feed, and that's a liability in the resource depletion game. 

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 19:03 | Link to Comment Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

China has huge internal debts going bad now.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 19:38 | Link to Comment bahaar
bahaar's picture

Everything China makes was invented in US/Europe. And new products still come out to of the US/Europe, not China.   China's real asset is it's ability to tap a large pool of cheap labor.   True, CCP's ability to organisedirt cheap is remarkable.  But it's the Walmart model.  The shareholders/ senior execs of Walmart who benefit, not the workers.  It's probably the same in China.  One could argue that ordinary Chinese earn more now than they did 20 years ago.  But in terms of clean air/clean water, they've traded their future for what will be seen as far lesser money than they are worth.     In the end the elites will move to the US with bundles of money they made selling Chinese labour and environment cheap and ordinary Chinese will be left behind to clean up.  As for dumping US treasury, China shoots itself in the foot if they do.   True China can kick start domestic economy.  But for that, China will have to pay it's workers more.  If they do, there goes the export market.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:26 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

Yes, but the Chinese invented and mastered politics.  That trumps all other inventions.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:39 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

And plastic rice and lead-coated childrens toys!

Tasty and fun for all ages!

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 07:19 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

u.s. is a DEBTOR NATION. it has massive social obligations that cannot be funded. it is a country with a domestic market that has been tapped out......

______________________

That are funded until they can not be funded.

It is been a while that US citizens on this site have announced that the social obligations could not be funded when they are still are.

In US citizen economics environment, it is much better to consume right now (through debt if possible) rather than postpone consumption (through the saving act)

Nobody can tell for sure there will still be that much to consume in the future with US citizens busy depleting the world's resources.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:38 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

Make me laugh!

Author of this hitting piece just another angry and greefy US Citizenism citizen, promoting blobbing-up by fat and lazy sofa tuber American citizens against the rising power of glorious Chinese people's regime, who is leaving them back in the powder.

Power of Chinese copycatting and perspiration shops and dark market piratacy not in question!  As Krushev told to Kennedy, we will pound shoe on you and down you into earth!

US Citizens, on other foot, now much too the obeseness and laziness of habit doing, need walkers and wheeledchairs to go to buy our cheap crap at Wall-mart.  Oh, irony!

And that is the throating of my mind.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:59 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 1

A new star rises!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 19:19 | Link to Comment bahaar
bahaar's picture

And I guess you're CCP troll and your posts are Google translated.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:23 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

bahaar, and I guess your an idiot to fall for this entertainment discuised as someone posting from China.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:24 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

bahaar, and I guess your an idiot to fall for this entertainment disguised as someone posting from China.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:37 | Link to Comment Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 History lesson. Why does China have 1/5 th of the worlds population?

   Why will china always be a "third world" Territory!

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 17:59 | Link to Comment AnAnomalous
AnAnomalous's picture

 History lesson. Why does China have 1/5 th of the worlds population?

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

As ignorant foreign devil you, not expecting for you know the reasons why.

Ancient Chinese secret!

But hinting is here on you:  has to do with consumpting of tiger sex organs, bear gall bladders, and other rare animal bits as way of make bigger the limp and tiny Chinaman peepee.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:19 | Link to Comment Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

I have another question. Why don't we see kung-fu in mma competition?

Thu, 08/23/2012 - 23:49 | Link to Comment SAT 800
SAT 800's picture

Ah, the limp and tiny Chinaman peepee; as long as you admit that, there's nothing to worry about. Absolutely nothing. You're fucked and that's it.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:03 | Link to Comment Cult of Criminality
Cult of Criminality's picture

nevermind

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:46 | Link to Comment Arnold Ziffel
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50% of the people in China earn $1 (or less) a day according to the BBC while RE developers and gubbermint officals get $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

 

This may cause a little friction.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 21:01 | Link to Comment i-dog
i-dog's picture

Bodies squished into the tank tracks ease the friction ... and not just in China....

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:54 | Link to Comment Arnold
Arnold's picture

Certainly the inventors of spagetti could give Italy a hand? The inventors of gunpowder could give the Irish a leg up. The early developers of the sea going Armada could give the Spanish a boost. Greeks, I can't come up with any thing pithy.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 18:56 | Link to Comment magpie
magpie's picture

The Greeks stole some silk worms in the Middle Ages, i believe.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 19:54 | Link to Comment NooooB
NooooB's picture

I'm sorry. Not trying to troll here but look, Chinese people have been dealing with a harsh world we can't even begin to imagine, for longer than most people can comprehend. If I had to choose weather to bet on, or against the Chinese gift for smuggling and graft, I definitely will place my money on their side. They have been sharpening their skills for 9500 years under the crushing weight of blood thirsty rulers duke-ing it out for territory. And for the last 500 or so under the oppression of the European locust that inflicted their shores and gifted them with opium. And then finally the "communist"thugs of the modern era. Through all that, they got theirs. And they will continue to for a long time to come.

I would also like to point out their success in Africa. A place where Europeans have a notoriously bad time. In Angola and Mozambique, they no longer go to schools to learn English. They want to learn Chinese. The Chinese have experience turning malaria infested hell holes into productive places. And they don't expect Africans to sit by and watch while they somebody else profits from their land the way Europeans do. The Chinese don't mind the Africans getting theirs too. It would not surprise me in the least if Africa was a big component to them pulling a rabbit out of the hat and proving your thesis wrong.

I worry that They are not catching up to our way of doing business, but we to theirs. And if that's the case, they have quite a head start. And I wouldn't expect much sympathy or compassion from them either. Payback is a bitch...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:39 | Link to Comment Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

I would also like to point out their success in Africa. A place where Europeans have a notoriously bad time.

That's because Europeans had to deal with Africans, the nature of whom the Chinese will learn of soon enough. That being said, British colonial Africa was no disaster by any means until the British lost their balls and succumbed to Marxist revolution both internal and external. British South Africa would be a prime example.

In Angola and Mozambique, they no longer go to schools to learn English. They want to learn Chinese. The Chinese have experience turning malaria infested hell holes into productive places.

The only way they'll ever make Africa 'productive' is to colonise it with millions of Chinese workers. You simply do not understand the nature and culture of the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa, for otherwise you'd never be prattling on as you are.

And they don't expect Africans to sit by and watch while they somebody else profits from their land the way Europeans do. The Chinese don't mind the Africans getting theirs too.

Get out of here. Desptotism and nepotism are cultural norms in Africa, and the only Africans who will ever see profits from any enterprises, past and future, are the leaders and their families. It's even that way in the supposedly in the most 'Westernised' country of South Africa where the 'black elite' and 'growing black middle class' are virtually all part of the web of the ruling ANC party, while millions upon millions of their racial brethren live lives of such material destitution it would boggle your naive little mind. Once again your ignorance is showing.

It would not surprise me in the least if Africa was a big component to them pulling a rabbit out of the hat and proving your thesis wrong.

The only pulling the Chinese are going to be doing with Africa is pulling out at some date in the distant future.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:22 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

Business is about people and politics.  The Chinese understand that.  Also agree, the Chinese are a hardworking people.  There is a saying in China "Eat Bitter".  It means, suck it up and refers to a horrible bitter vegetable that makes its way into way too many meals.  Yes, through all NooB describes, the Chinese people have prevailed and managed to generate an enormous amount of personal wealth on a global scale.  There is no right and wrong in China, no ideology.  In the end, its just about who has the most chips.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 20:43 | Link to Comment Mark123
Mark123's picture

Chinese love to gamble, speculate, and buy anything "designer"....and seem content to live under a totalitarian system.

 

In other words, our corporate overlords just love the little guys.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 23:11 | Link to Comment Yohimbo
Yohimbo's picture

the chinese cant make ANYTHING worth a shit.  Idea theives and crap craftsmanship = garbage not worth even spending american fiat toilet paper on.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 14:46 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

I rememebr those exact words being said of the Japanese in the 70's.   The Chinese make exactly what we tell them to make, at exactly the quality level we require.  Who do you think writes the product specifications?   We do.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 23:53 | Link to Comment jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Yea true... I'd say anecdotally all true.

 

Then again they just haven't been able to refine and hide the corruption as well as the West.

Let's see, what could best compare most recently... hmm... LIBOR?

 

At least in China you can stilll get executed for something like Melamine baby formula scandals.  Here you'd just blame it on China and neglect the part about CEOs trying to drive down costs by demanding ever cheaper products.  You get what you pay for... and when you want to pay dirt cheap prices, you get dirt cheap quality.

Tue, 07/03/2012 - 23:56 | Link to Comment jonjon831983
jonjon831983's picture

Wait, scratch that... people here know. We've just been subjugated and don't care enough to do anything about it.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:16 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

This is where this article gets it all wrong.  The west is just as corrupt as China.  Maybe more so because in the West the government has much tighter control over its citizens.  The LIBOR scandal is a good example, but the real corruption is seen by looking at any industry in the USA.  If you want to secure success in the US, you lobby Washington.  Industries are built around economic rent taking and not around economics.   My point about the gov in the west having more control is that in China, the reality is that the government does not have the sophistication to truly control the people.  The west imagines that there are police on every corner in China.  The opposite is true.  There are almost no police and if you manage to find one, they don't carry a gun and they don't wield much power.   Yes, if you hold a rally in Tienanmen Square, some tanks might eventually roll in after a few days.  However, the Chinese people are amazing free to say and do as they please with-out fear of government intervention.  Ya, they block Facebook in China, the reason is because the Chinese understand that its just a NSA information gathering tool.  They have their own Chinese versions of Facebook to collect their own intelligence on their people, but again, they aren't that sophisticated yet and are only looking for plots that would cause instability to the current power balance.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 00:00 | Link to Comment Bartanist
Bartanist's picture

I remember when Japan was invincible and all Japanese manager were geniuses. Then something happened. Maybe geniuses can remain geniuses if they have an infinite pool of cheap labor. Japan did not and about the time Japan was buying Pebble Beach and half of Hawaii things got too expensive in Japan and their competitiveness shrank.

The moral of the story is: anyone can be a genius if they have an infinite pool of cheap labor to exploit.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 15:03 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

Japan's rise had nothing to do with cheap labor and their fall had very little to do with their cost of living.  Japan's issue is its size, like other tiny island nations, if it wants to be a world superpower, Imperialism is the only way.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 00:06 | Link to Comment mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Chinese stock market has nothing to do with anything. Just a total fraud to rip off foreigners. Unlike US where is is an 80% fraud to rip off everyone.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 03:43 | Link to Comment CTG_Sweden
CTG_Sweden's picture

If the author (Also Sprach Analyst) is right I suppose that China could have avoided some problems by paying their government officials at least as much as the EU does.

Lots of power and low pay is usually a dangerous combination.

If the corruption problem in China is as serious as the author says, I suppose that the only way out of these problems is to grant an amnesty and then raise government officials pay to at least EU levels. It is also important that judges, prosecutors and cops are paid enough. I don´t think that there is any other realistic way to solve this kind of problems but to pay people so much that only a very limited number of government officials, judges, prosecutors and cops can be bought.

I personally believe that it should be possible for China to get economic growth figures similar to what South Korea experienced in the 1970s and 80s. China has all the blue-prints for economic growth over the past 100 years in the US, Western Europe, Japan and South Korea. It should be easier for China to raise its GDP per capita figure to South Korean levels than for South Korea itself since China has its own, huge domestic market. They control their most important market.

There seems to have been some malinvestment in China over the past few years. To me, it doesn´t seem as if it must have been impossible to avoid those problems.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 03:55 | Link to Comment silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

The Chinese economy is intentionally being slowed down by Beijing to reduce inflation before the country gets handed over to the new guy.

This article is a feel good article for Americans and Europeans so they they don't get angry at the morons running their country. Imagine if the penny dropped and they realized the guys in Beijing really are better at running a country than many Eurpoean governments and the US government.

Most of the comments rubbishing China here are written by people that haven't travelled/operated in China so the comments are kinda valueless.

The reality is that the new guy will take over soon, the old crew will organize an orderly handover and the new guy will take his foot off the break a bit and the economy will grow a little faster.

PS AnAnomalous is probably US psyops, the writing style is a US interpretation of how Chinese think and write.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 07:45 | Link to Comment Apostate2
Apostate2's picture

More an American cyclops mutated at birth.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 14:57 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

AnAnom is clearly not Chinese and nothing he/she has said bears any resemblance to what a real Chiense would think or write.   Its clear that who ever it is, is here to entertain us.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 18:54 | Link to Comment WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

Silverdragon, while Chinese top leadership is made of bright guys (typically engineers), not lawyers like in the West and that is a HUGE advantage, there is quite a bit of bad management at the local level.  There is a limit to how much infrastructure you can build, and China has had before lots of bad debt in the end of the 90s. Huge amount of bad debt indeed which resulted in a decrease of consumption as % of GDP. Long term I am not arguing that China shoudl overconsume, but at some point SOEs need to be maybe sold to mop-up the bad debt of local governments and consumption should rise back. One should not be too worried about the sovereign debt and currency of China by any stretch of the imagination, and I think that China is extremely wise in spending so much on putting down the price of solar panel year after year and spending on Thorium nuclear and so forth (their engineering backgroup helps on that). But there has been some excess in infrastructure this is undeniable, so you could see a crunch in China. But the type of crunch in China would be what is a regular recession in the West before 2007, a mid-cycle recession, not a terminal cycle recession like the West is experiencing since 2007, or like China experienced in 1976. 1976 was probably the bottom for China, that is the bottom of a 140 years decline and then upwards from then. So 30 years of ascent is not so large. The West had probably since 1750 a rise up until the 1970s, so 200 years, first in Europe than in the US. The West could well be in the funk for a long long time if we do not re-instate small gov, small taxes, etc... The problem is that when the situation gets more and more unstable, gov gets crazier and crazier in its attempt to "control" things, China knows 1 or 2 things about it with the first Tian An Men revolution, republic, war lordism, invasion, hyperinflation of 1848 in Shanghai, Mao rising to power, great leap forward disaster until the ultimate bottom is touched in 1976 with the earthquake, the death of Mao and end of the crazy cultural revolution. The frigthening thing is that the West looks like it is descending toward that unstable path, and the ZHedgers know that too well.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:18 | Link to Comment Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

Chinese statistics are as real Chinese martial arts, and believed in just as readily by gullible Westerners.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:33 | Link to Comment silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

Is there any country whose govt. data/statistics can be trusted? It is best to move on from the subject. Governments lie to cover up their incompetence, sometimes they lie to give other countries an inaccurate perception of their strength/weakness.

The US is broke and covering it up with lies, China is actually talking down its true numbers, as it doesn't want broke Eurpoean and American bums asking for a loan.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:42 | Link to Comment silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

Lebinsphilosoph,

My China based Western MMA friends laugh at the idea of Chinese Martial Arts being good enough to cut it in MMA/Cage Fighting.

The other side to that is that the Chinese Martial Artists say they would do better in a fight to the death as at the higher levels it is about destroying body organs and doing irrepairable damage to the opponent.

I am still undecided.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 05:55 | Link to Comment Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

My China based Western MMA friends laugh at the idea of Chinese Martial Arts being good enough to cut it in MMA/Cage Fighting.

That's because they haven't cut it. Only Sanda is even applicable, and that resembles traditional wushu as much as boxing does ballet.

The other side to that is that the Chinese Martial Artists say they would do better in a fight to the death as at the higher levels it is about destroying body organs and doing irrepairable damage to the opponent.

I am still undecided.

A glimpse into the workings of your mind and its suceptibility to believing pie-in-the-sky nonsense in place of demonstrable facts. It's no wonder you are enamoured of the Chinese government and its cooked books. And, no, with that pronouncement I'm not praising the deepening shithole that is the modern 'West'.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 14:56 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

The Chinese don't ever fight with thier hands, and if they do get into a fight they will not use Kungfu.  They fight with the mind and with time.  Chinese Martial arts is not about fighting.  Its for old people to relax and live longer and it seems to work pretty well for that.   Bruce Lee recognized that Chinese Martial Arts had very little to do with fighting and that is why he came up with a whole new style which took elements from all areas that focused more on fighting.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 19:03 | Link to Comment WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

SilverDragon you do not sound too wise and impervious to personal/nationalistic attack. I have practiced Judo for 10 years, Japanese martial arts not Chinese (sorry). Hummm.... I can not remember the part where you should allow yourself to get into rage...Let it got, silverdragon, ignore the personal and idiotic nationalistic attack. I am French and I receive from time to time French bashing, so what, do I care? Let people piss without making noise, but make sure to position the fan in front of them.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 06:04 | Link to Comment silverdragon
silverdragon's picture

Lebensphilosoph,

I have been struck by both in training and the Martial Artists strike pressure points which instantly end the training whereas the MMA ground and pound is really just that, its beat them into submission.

You can not punch someone in the throat in MMA nor can you strike someone in the carotid artery which causes them to become unconscious. These are friendly strikes.

Taking someones eyes out is also not allowed in MMA.

MMA is sport and Martial Arts are Martial Arts, one is for killing the other is for fun.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 07:10 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

One could wonder what all the proponents of US citizenism in China (and they are a growing lot) are going to do with those data.

Going to be hard to find the required number of Indians to propell the US citizen project in China.

A worthwile question to be asked to any US citizen chinese (or their world counterpart) who wishes for US citizenism to take over in China.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 11:54 | Link to Comment TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous squatted and dropped this:

One could wonder what all the proponents of US citizenism in China (and they are a growing lot) are going to do with those data.

Going to be hard to find the required number of Indians to propell the US citizen project in China.

Made me laugh. Craftiness and treachery of Chinese citizenism nature is eternal.

Chinese citizenism citizens require no Indians when substitution of Mongolians, Tibetans, Tuvans, and Nepalese will suffice for purposes of blobbing up.

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 12:05 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Indians is a generic term. Indians refer to any person once subjugated by the beautiful, life advancing, humanity progressing US citizen project of freedom, truth and justice is ready to sacrifice the land of ancestors to sponsor that humanking saving US citizen project.

Because it is well known US citizens did not rob the land, right? It is all because of the elite, the illuminati, the Chinese, the Zimbabweans etc

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 13:01 | Link to Comment akak
akak's picture

I have one word for you, hypocritical Chink that you are:  Tibet.

Now shut the fuck up, you disingenuous, bigoted and lying bastard.

 

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 14:49 | Link to Comment meatbag
meatbag's picture

akak, AnAnom is from the USA/Europe, not China...

Wed, 07/04/2012 - 14:00 | Link to Comment WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

China was in recession, with large inflation in 1987, technically the GDP was nominally positive, but with a 86 million adjustement in people in payroll in 1991, with such a gap you can not trust those number. Also when the low peg was put in place in 1994, the economy was not doing that great. At the end of the 90s, there was a serious banking crisis in China, and then we have the decision back in 2003 to revive SOEs and we have the mother of all hard commodities boom.

Thu, 07/05/2012 - 13:50 | Link to Comment orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

In 1776, the US has 13 states and about 12M people. China had about 120M people.

 

200+ years later and size still doesn't matter.

 

China remains a communist country and we know how the communist storyline goes.  Google the USSR, East Germany, Cuba, North Korea is you need clarity.

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