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Guest Post: Debt-Serfdom Is Now The New American Norm

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

Debt-Serfdom Is Now the New American Norm

Trapped assets that generate no income streams in the present are not capital; the value of such non-productive assets is illusory. Strip away these trapped assets and the reality is revealed: most American households toil to service their debts.

The typical American household is insolvent: its debts exceed its assets. There is nothing fancy about calculating insolvency: if debts exceed assets, the enterprise is insolvent. By this measure, most American households are insolvent, if their real assets are marked to actual market.

For example:

Auto loan balance: $9,000
Actual market value of auto: $6,000

Credit card balance: $6,000
Street value of stuff purchased with credit card: $300

home mortgage: $250,000
Auction value of house: $200,000

Student loans: $60,000
Market value of education: Not applicable, as it cannot auctioned off or securitized

And so on.

The typical American household is thus in service to its debt, not to its assets, and to the holders of that debt. This is debt-serfdom: serfdom in service to the owners of debt, debt that may well always exceed the value of the household's assets. This is debt-serfdom for life.

If we look at the American household as an enterprise, then we have to differentiate between unproductive, trapped capital, assets held in a house or retirement account, and productive, free capital which can be moved in and out of productive assets to earn a return which increases free cashflow income in the present.

By this standard, most of the typical American household's assets are trapped and therefore unproductive. In this sense they do not even qualify as capital. Let's say a household owns a house with a real-world market value in today's depressed market of $250,000, and the house carries a mortgage of $150,000. On paper, the household holds a net asset value of $100,000.

But this asset is not actually productive; it produces no income and exposes the household to the risks of declining real estate valuations. The asset provides the value of shelter, but if similar shelter could be rented for less than the costs of servicing the mortgage debt and the many costs of ownership, then sinking the entire household's net worth/assets in a house does not "pencil out" as a productive investment of assets.

In a practical sense, this $100,000 is inaccessible and thus trapped; housing is highly illiquid and has transfer costs of up to 10% in realtor and escrow fees. In most cases, the sale proceeds are simply reburied into another mortgaged home. The asset is trapped and thus not deployable capital.

The same can be said of many retirement accounts that are routinely counted as assets on household balance sheets. the assets are trapped in the account until retirement, and their deployment is often restricted to a handful of risky options (investing in Wall Street, for example). The purchasing-power value of the assets might decline considerably by the time the funds can actually be withdrawn, and in this sense their present value is chimerical.

Since these funds are trapped, they also don't qualify as capital: they cannot be used to start or buy a business or other assets which return free cashflow in the present.

Trapped assets are not capital. They cannot be moved into more productive uses that yield income streams that add to current income, which is the definition of capital. Borrowed money that is sunk into trapped assets is not borrowed capital; it is simply debt that must be serviced.

If we set aside assets trapped in real estate and retirement accounts, a truer picture of the American household's actual productive capital emerges: most households have essentially no productive capital, and their debts far exceed whatever meager free capital they do own.

In a very real sense, the non-cash, non-small-business assets of the typical American household are invisible, unuseable, inaccessible and thus illusory; they exist as entries on the balance sheet but not as real-world productive capital.

Wealth and income do not flow from servicing debt incurred by trapped assets, it flows from productive free capital.

Thus the typical household toils not to increase productive capital that can be deployed to increase household income but to service their crushing debts. How else can we describe this situation other than debt-serfdom?

Tomorrow I will discuss the slow and largely misunderstood transmogrification from a free people with limited access to borrowed capital/debt to a nation of debt-serfs.

 

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Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:19 | 1785590 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

'Tomorrow I will discuss the slow and largely misunderstood transmogrification from a free people with limited access to borrowed capital/debt to a nation of debt-serfs.'

No need. It's all understood. Somehow it all just carries on.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:26 | 1785624 boom goes the d...
boom goes the dynamite's picture

that's right and honey badger don't give a shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:45 | 1785707 gojam
gojam's picture

Just for future reference (if anyone's interested.) The correct name for Debt Slavery is Peonage.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:52 | 1785733 falak pema
falak pema's picture

...helotry, serfdom, thrall, villenage, yoke. 

I like thrall...it enthralls me!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:04 | 1785772 gojam
gojam's picture

All are good terms refering to an unpaid labourer or serf/slave.

A Peon, though, specifically refers to a person in debt bondage and Peonage is the name given to a system based on Debt Bondage

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:16 | 1785829 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Yep, slavery never went away, it just morphed.

What is needed is a Jubilee, clearly.

http://www.capitalresearchinstitute.org

"Jubilee, An Idea Whose Time Has Come"

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:58 | 1785986 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

"There is nothing fancy about calculating insolvency: if debts exceed assets, the enterprise is insolvent."

That is not the definition of insolvency, insolvency is when you have debts you cannot service as they come due, either via cash flow or liquidation of assets.  Your description is called "balance sheet insolvency" but that does not mean a business or other entity is unable to pay.  If we used balance sheet solvency as the marker for business or personal viability then all businesses would start out "insolvent" and be non viable.  And actually using proper double entry bookkeeping the balance sheet will always show essentially zero since assets minus liabilities have to be equal.  That's why they call it a BALANCE sheet.  Simply having debt is not insolvency as long as one can earn enough cash flow over time to service it. 

It is when debts become too big to service as they come due, or too large overall that they can never reasonably be paid off that solvency becomes an issue.  Most of the world is now so saturated in debt even as productive efforts are flat to falling and yet has to be divided among more population that we see there is no realistic hope of ever getting out of debt, thus skimming most or all of the margin of profit off to those who claim to hold the debts, forever. 

In that respect most of the world is now insolvent indeed.  And much of it is actually bankrupt which is a whole other matter.  Bankruptcy can be covered up using trickery like kiting checks and borrowing from one source to pay another (Ponzi), governments can and often do it by printing up money and saying "See?  We are not broke."  But once they begin that path as we all know it is a one way trip to the slaughterhouse.  At that point it is not about "fixing" anything because it cannot be fixed, it is about planning for the collapse and then rebuilding right next time we start over.  Right, as in making people be people and corporations just companies run by people who can be held ultimately accountable.  Right as in minimizing money in the electoral system, and right as in making sure the bribery laws are broad and plain, vigorously enforced.  And never again trusting private for profit banks to handle our money.  I would also add a maximum wage but that is just me, it's time will come someday, just not yet.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 17:39 | 1786972 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Your grasp on financials is clearly impressive. However when you say that a maximum wage should be added it appears you havent thought this idea through as thoroughly as you did finance. That or maybe you have a bias which doesn't allow you to see past some underlying agenda. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 19:20 | 1787241 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

TB, that was just me stating a personal preference, but it is true that overconcentration of wealth chokes of capital formation and thus we have situation like in Mexico where some 48 families hold more than half the national wealth and capture more than half the national income.  Most people think of Mexico as a poor nation, it is not, it is drenched in resources, it is just their paternalistic laws, Napoleonic justice system, and and colonial serf mindset backed up by the superstitions of the church that keep the poor poor and asking no questions.  By the way, wealth inequality here is rapidly approaching that of Mexican standards.

A maximum wage is also just another way of say a highly progressive tax system.  But it would also hit estates pretty hard and for good reason, one of the most efficient levers of overconcentration of wealth and formation of untaxable dynasties is the lack of an effective estate tax.  Once wealth is passed down to an inheritor it cannot ever be taxed again.  And it most likely will sit in broker accounts churning with the algos rather than providing capital for use to grow industry. 

One of the things I think we must do in the aftermath of the coming collapse is to outlaw any form of financial insurance like CDO's and reinsurance and such, they obscure the risks involved in investing and when you cannot determine risk you cannot make an appropriate return, or even know what that would be.  Without that you cannot know how to price anything in any market.  It means that prices must therefore be wrong either to the high or the low side, but where prices are wrong you have malinvestment and eventually that means bubbles.  And always, always, always, it is labor that gets gored in the end, and those that think labor is going to put up with this bullshit much longer really should reexamine their motives because you are deluding yourself if you think people will work more and more for less and less.

Anyway, in a FUNCTIONAL economy there is no need for a maximum wage or highly progressive tax system because while wealth and comfort and security can be had there would be no opportunity to make absolutely obscene piles of money.  You all might be too young to remember when rich was a person with a million dollars, but many were thought rich on far less.  The reason the Forbes 400 list is 400 is because there was a time when there were no billionaires and there were only about 400 or so with well over one million.  Yet we saw rich people everywhere.  They were relatively rich and totally happy.  At the same time real poverty was not as bad as it is right now. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 20:25 | 1787315 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

I would hope when you say functional, you mean free. Where one is his own soverign and no one elses. Decisions and responsibilities belong to you alone and that right is projected equally on all other soverigns. Where criminallity occurs when this right is broken. Where justice occurs equally for all.  A man with wealth ill gained is not rich, he is a thief. There still are few rich men, and their rights must be protected, in a functional system, as anyone else's

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 00:26 | 1787874 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

No, because I do not believe that a person is their own sovereign and no body else's as you put it.  Too many chiefs and not enough Indians my dad used to say, nothing gets done, but aside from that we live in a world of 7 billion people and we all have an obligation to the rest whether you like it or not.  If your world of benevolent self rule in which every man is king and under no other rule worked then that is what we would have, but it does not work because there are too many free riders (I am not thinking people that are assisted but people who in spite of being able to refuse to pay a fair share for the public goods they use) and just flat out disruptive assholes.  It was because of that government was invented and it was pretty brutal at that for a long time, tribal, feudal, monarchic, dictatorial, and at last someone invented a partial form of democracy, which is what we had till the banks corrupted our system.  Limited democracy is the best we can ever hope to have and those that do not want to cooperate and pay their taxes and abide by our collective laws simply and naturally are enemy to the rest of us.  Rich men have a higher burden because they have a higher ability, the obligation is non negotiable, if you think you can get a better deal in some other land by all means do not let the door slam you in the ass on the way out. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 21:23 | 1787466 pvzh
pvzh's picture

You all might be too young to remember when rich was a person with a million dollars, but many were thought rich on far less.  The reason the Forbes 400 list is 400 is because there was a time when there were no billionaires and there were only about 400 or so with well over one million.

And, a chief reason for that was ... gold standard. Therefore, the only thing that needs to be done is reinstatement of the gold standard with full reserve requirement. After that, there would be no need for anything preposterous like "progressive" taxation that puts too much money into government hands or "maximal" wage, which does nothing to "break up" large estates, but demotivates people to achieve and to become rich.

Re: large estates. In the environment of sound money and no "counterfeiting" privilege AKA fractional reserve banking, large estates will break up over several generations by itself. Most of them will be gone in a few years if bailouts are stopped and defaults are allowed (see Great Depression and inequality index: how defaults are benefitial for equality and fairness).

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:15 | 1786592 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Jubilee is now called bondholder haircuts. Jubilee implies all debt erased which also would imply zero intrinsic value. Even the quad stacked cubes are worth .10 cents on the dollar.

The GNP is probably around $9T. The bond haircuts will likely reflect a large portion of the 40% debt overhang of 2008. It is an opinion but one that seems to be mentioned at IMF, CFR, BIS and World Bank frequently.

Oh sure there is going to be much kicking and screaming but the reality is neither Americans or anybody else in the West is going to wait around a decade for a return to growth. I don't think bankers will go to jail. They'll sign off on finish blowing themselves up in the America's as most of the fungible wealth is already East.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 17:30 | 1786943 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>neither Americans or anybody else in the West is going to wait around a decade for a return to growth

Real wages haven't improved in 40 years. Why wouldn't Americans wait another 10 years?

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 20:58 | 1787432 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Tipping points. People do all actions based on opportunity to benefit or fear of loss. With supply-side economics comes more fear than opportunity. More stick than carrot.

The mules are being whipped even harder. It will kick back. I have made some prescient forecasts based on behavioral modeling. But instead of just a scary bedtime story there are some solutions:

1) Evolve Central Banking as a national utility and offer every citizen to be a share holder. Big difference in confidence and supply chain participation with voluntary participation and involuntary participation. The model evolves or dies ugly. Always choice...

2) Allow peaceful revolution rather than guarantee violent revolution. Leadership engages is two way dialogue system with the citizens directly, used framed debate system. Don't moderate or censor with exception of direct threats of violence. Take verbal hatred that will last a couple of months. Man up verbally, enage in debate and let the public decide if you should retire or stay on. Some of you deserve death. But I wager the American people would rather have peaceful revolution.

3) Fix the trade imbalance with the Chinese. If you bankers fucked up and didnt include the rate of business in your variables, that is not our problem. Best to connect the American and Chinese citizen together and do same platform system and program at the same time as #2.

4) Tax consumption, not income. Estate taxes revisions favorable to capital formation. Carrot over stick.

I am netting out.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 21:39 | 1787496 pvzh
pvzh's picture

I am not sure what you meant by "Evolve Central Banking as a national utility and offer every citizen to be a share holder." Something like convert Federal Reserve into publicly traded company and give every US citizen equal or some kind of "fair share" of shares. That would not work. You cannot make "public good" out of counterfeiting AKA fractional reserve banking. Besides, such humongous corporation would be easily captureable by special interests, and people would not see their share of "profits" anyway.

Banking should be utility in a sense that "clearing house/storage" operations must be strictly separated from lending and/or investing, so bad loans do not result in shut down of other economic activity. Other than that, the only thing government must do is to require full disclosure and to prevent fraud. For example, you can issue and use partially backed debt instruments (traditional redeemable banknotes) as long as any user of them will be aware what they are.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:04 | 1786024 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

Peon, from the root Pee, as in urinate, and on, as in onto your head.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:09 | 1786222 toady
toady's picture

I always wondered why my boss calls me a peon. I always thought it was a scatological reference, pee-on.

I guess I could have just looked it up, thanks for doing the leg work.

Good to know!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:52 | 1785736 redpill
redpill's picture

Ready to work! Zug Zug! Dabu! Lok'tar!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:57 | 1785754 jonan
jonan's picture

you forgot, sua'vu

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:20 | 1786611 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

I knew it! I knew it was you Redpill, that dick that could click a tenth of a second faster than me to build the guard towers. Thanks for the fond memories of lighter times ;)

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:18 | 1785837 DosZap
DosZap's picture

gojam ,

So, damn you...........This means a NEW Gvt Agency.

The Dept of Peonage, down the hall to your left,door in say's Shitter.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:35 | 1785888 gojam
gojam's picture

lol

It's inevitable.

"The bureaucracy must expand to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy"

Banks are probably the best example of modern peonage. You have an overdraft, try moving your account.

 and all the time you get the bank charges but you can't move anywhere.

Payday loans and credit cards similarly.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:35 | 1785917 redpill
redpill's picture

This is serious!  We need a Peonage Czar.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:06 | 1786535 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

we have a Peonage Czar, several - you know them as Bernanke, Geithner, Blankfein, Ken Lewis, and Brian Moynihan among the many thousands of Peonage Czar and sub Czars making the plan happen every day, forever.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:31 | 1785897 Use of Weapons
Use of Weapons's picture

I like skuldfesti - has the right tones of omnious burden within it, I feel.

Link

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:22 | 1785830 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

Here's the live link:

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/

He sounds like he's seconds from tears.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:17 | 1785832 been there done that
been there done that's picture

somone stole Obama's teleprompter and podium, now what are we going to do as a country??????????

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2011/10/18/am-obama-stolen-pro...

 

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:12 | 1786201 Pitchman
Pitchman's picture

Welcome to THE NEW WORLD ORDER OF DEBT SLAVERY ECONOMICS, WHERE THE HOUSE ALWAYS WINS AND YOU ARE THE MARK!

Occupy The FED & Withdraw Your Money From TBTF Banks

Why do the American people stand by a CENTRAL BANK; the Federal Reserve? It is owned by the banks themselves charging us interest on every dollar in circulation. The Founding Fathers fought the revolution to free us from this model of DEBT SLAVERY ECONOMICS! Their clear intent, as set forth in the Constitution was; the nations currency is to be issued by the government with no interest attached? The governments issuance of currency is the very definition of sovereignty. To do otherwise is to relinquish our rights as a free people. Is it any wonder we find ourselves where we are today? END THE FED - Inflection Point

Please see: Anonymous Shines A Light On The Hypocrisy Of Our Leaders -

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM - Capitalism promotes a level field of competition not privatized monopoly.

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living in society, they create for themselves, in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it." ~ Frederic Bastiat

See: Obama's Problem With Solyndra: It's A Warm Up For SunPower

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:40 | 1785688 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

This is not "debt" serfdom, it's illusion serfdom.  Most people are a slave to their illusions.  For example, the illusion that they owe a bank one's labor for money that the bank never owned, in fact money that never existed in the first place.  Once one becomes aware of this illusion then the spell is broken, and the former illusion serf can now focus on remedy for the fraud that has been enacted upon them.  The key, however, is to realize the illusion and to abort belief in it.  A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

http://1215.org/lawnotes/mortgage/index.html

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:47 | 1785713 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

yep, 

and talking to the young'ins at the occupy______!  general assembly...

they have no intention of paying it back..at least till they see something showing thier signature on it obligating them to....

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:00 | 1785767 njdoo7
njdoo7's picture

Let's say you were drunk and I got you to sign a legal document that you are going to pay me 5 million dollars for my nissan altima with a market value of 17,000...

 

Would you pay me once I "showed you your signature obliging you to?"

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:06 | 1785790 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

Uh,
That's not the point...
They didn't sign anything, they didn't ring up the debt, and it wasn't their decision to take on said debt....
So they, at least the ones I talked to, aren't going to pay for it....

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:40 | 1785931 DosZap
DosZap's picture

X.inf.capt

So they, at least the ones I talked to, aren't going to pay for it....

X, if your refering to Student Loans,that's one debt you will pay.( And not the insane spending period).

If you ever hope to be employed.

The plan from day one, was to Nationalize it, and get a free education, IF you served TWO years in Obummer Corps.

It's not possible to walk it, you cannot discharge it w/bankruptcy,so either you DO pay, or Serve, or you never get a paycheck.

They will garnish every dime.

Like CS, and Alimony, the only way to defeat that albatross is to make a lot less, or not work at all.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:48 | 1786051 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

hello, dos....

but i wasnt talking about loans....

i was talkin' 'bout a the 14 trill.+ debt...

p.s. they also know the worse someone can garish on a check is 20%

if they take a job, it will be for the lowest amount possible...then work under the table...

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:22 | 1786071 SilverDosed
SilverDosed's picture

There's an option C, work off the books and not pay any taxes.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:28 | 1786644 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Yep. At that point you emigrate but I do believe there will be other options based on how the aggregate debt is restructured.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:00 | 1786466 njdoo7
njdoo7's picture

I assumed you were talking about student loans. If you were talking about debts like the national debt, that many never agreed to pay, I see your point. 

I think we also need to examine taking advantage of those not in the state of being able to understand what they are signing.  Most students are not in the state of being able to understand this.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 21:23 | 1787463 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Yes NJdoo. I am very familiar with the Higher Education markets as I own a business selling widgits to them. Still lots lf room for cooler and qualitative cirriculum.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:56 | 1785748 XitSam
XitSam's picture

So we should pay the bank back with illusionary Federal Reserve Notes?  Not me, of course, I have no debt besides monthly utilities.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:09 | 1785797 chubbar
chubbar's picture

There was a case that decided in favor of the borrower (montgomery bank vs Daly), where the judge decided that because the bank created the money out of thin air that there was no "consideration" given by the bank in the contract.

http://www.freegrab.net/Landmark%20Minnesota%20case.htm

This was overturned by the appelate court after the judge in the case mysteriously died due to poisoning 6 months later so it can not be used as a precedence (I'm sure the court was duly informed about how to rule in this case by the banking cabal). That being said, it's pretty clear to me that the whole banking system is set up to defraud.

"

Landmark Minnesota case: First national bank of Montgomery vs. Daly (1969) was a courtroom drama worthy of a movie script. Defendant Jerome Daly opposed the bank’s foreclosure on his $14,000 home mortgage loan on the ground that there was no consideration for the loan. Daly, an attorney representing himself, argued that the bank had put up no real money for his loan. Associate Justice Bill Drexler recorded the courtroom proceedings; he said his role was to keep order in the courtroom. Drexler had not given much mental acceptance for defense and watching this The Bank President Mr. Morgan took a stand and admitted that the banks routinely created money for loans and that this was standard banking practice. Presiding Justice Martin Mahoney and the jurors all agreed that it seemed like a fraud. Dollar deception: Minnesota lawsuit

In his court memorandum, Justice Mahoney stated:

“Plaintiff admitted that it, in combination with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, . . . did create the entire $14,000.00 in money and credit upon its own books by bookkeeping entry. That this was the consideration used to support the Note dated May 8, 1964 and the Mortgage of the same date. The money and credit first came into existence when they created it. Mr. Morgan admitted that no United States Law or Statute existed which gave him the right to do this. A lawful consideration must exist and be tendered to support the Note.” Dollar deception: Minnesota lawsuit

The defendant won this case and he kept his house. To Daly, the implications were enormous. If it was true that bankers were extending the credits without consideration. It was great defeat for them, as their loans could be declared void in the decision. Daly wrote in a local news article that:

“This decision, which is legally sound, has the effect of declaring all private mortgages on real and personal property, and all U.S. and State bonds held by the Federal Reserve, National and State banks to be null and void. This amounts to an emancipation of this Nation from personal, national and state debt purportedly owed to this banking system. Every American owes it to himself . . . to study this decision very carefully . . . for upon it hangs the question of freedom or slavery.” Dollar deception: Minnesota lawsuit

The decision that was made has not been implemented at all. Although at that time judges and courts were not dependants. After exposing this secret of banks Justice Mahoney lived for less then six months and in mysterious accident that appeared to involve poisoning he died. Since that time a number of defendants are attempting to avoid loan defaults using the defense that Daly raised; but they have met with only limited success. As one judge said off the record:

“If I let you do that – you and everyone else – it would bring the whole system down . . .. I cannot let you go behind the bar of the bank . . .. We are not going behind that curtain!” Dollar deception: Minnesota lawsuit

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 21:06 | 1787439 Escapeclaws
Escapeclaws's picture

Excellent post, though I'm not sure I understand the legal doctrine you are applying concerning "no consideration". The entire economy is based on lending money that is created out of thin air by the banks.  It is the borrower's promise to pay that creates the value of the loan. In a certain sense, both the borrower and the bank create the money out of thin air.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:19 | 1785840 pods
pods's picture

Thanks again for that resource Chumba!  It is a great place for information.  

pods

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:34 | 1785895 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture

 

 

Chumbawamba

That is pure bullshit. You're just trying to find any far-fetched excuse to mask the fact that you're a credit deadbeat and can't pay your debts. You're a revolutionary wannabe hiding behind a mountain of late payments.   

If your stupid claim is true, then you're guilty of theft for having given the merchant at the mall a piece of plastic that represents "illusory" money as payment for your oversized pretzel. Once you sign on the dotted line, that fractional reserve "illusion" becomes very fucking real.

Pay your fucking debts! People like YOU are the problem in this country.... no one wants to hold themselves responsible for their actions and decisions, from politicians and bankers to house flippers and credit card millionaires.  If you have an ethical or conceptual problem with fractional reserve banking, then you shouldn't have paid for your oversized pretzel with "illusory" money in the first place.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step ????  Are you fucking kidding me?  Just because you add some cheesy, trite cliche at the end of you post doesn't make it any more credible.  

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:42 | 1785938 pods
pods's picture

So you are pissed off that other people might ruin THEIR credit?

How very libertarian of you.

:)

pods

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:53 | 1785963 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

When  people default it adds to borrowing costs for everyone.

Might I suggest "what is seen and what is unseen"  by Bastiat.

Its easy to blame the bankers when you dont want to pay your bills.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:30 | 1786110 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Well, something is up today with the banks.  I abandoned my house and mortgage two years ago and it has been sitting empty with foreclosure sales cancelled month after month till they (Chase) just suspended all foreclosure sale in Oregon because "of a couple court rulings."  Now, out of the blue years later they called me this morning and want me to contact their loan department to speak to an office about getting the mortgage straightened out so I can get a modification and move back in, or at least rent it out, or barring all else do a short sale, they are suddenly very intent upon this.  They promised to keep calling me till I make some arrangement.  That is till I change my number to an unlisted cell phone more like.  The guy hinted that the bank is very willing to bend over backward to clear all arrears and make the loan functional again.

I basically told him to go to hell, I tried to do a workout agreement with Chase in 2009 and was told I had an agreement please mail a check for 1000 bucks which will be applied to the January 2010 payment and all arrears will be tacked onto the end of the mortgage.  Fuckers took the 1000 and applied it to late fees and back late payments, they lied then stole 1000 from me, they were not negotiating in good faith and later even admitted it when they said I could not have had a workout agreement since the USDA Rural Development would have to approve any such agreement and that would take 6 months minimum.  They tricked me into sending them money and then misapplied it to themselves.  Needless to say I have no intention of trusting those bastards again.

Still, something is up.  Perhaps a judge handed down an order that the bank has to cede clear title in cases where they tricked people into missing payments as a condition for discussing loan modifications and then did not attempt in good faith to fix the late pays.  I do not know but I am trying to find out.  I had told them in no uncertain terms when I left my house that they should not bother to contact me as they would never see another dime from me no matter what it took to make that happen.  And I told them today that if they want their money they can and should go to the loan guarantor and ask for it because they will get a total of shit from me.  That they cannot refuse to sell the house in order to harass me indefinitely. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:39 | 1786137 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Your assumptions are so flawed that your thesis is practically unintelligible.

First, default isn't adding to credit costs for anyone, because credit is literally free, as the Fed has artificially set interest rates at zero.

Second, credit costs are SUPPOSED to reflect society's time preference for spending, but with artificial interest rates (ie free money that is not reflected by production of infinite goods), it doesn't.  People were suckered in by those artificially low rates.  They didn't realize they were depleating society's capital, and were in fact undermining the capital required to keep their companies growing, or even to let them tread water.

When interest rates are set artificially, excesses are created.  That's all there is to it.  It isn't the fault of the people taking out loans.  They were fed blatently false information, and as such could not make economic calculations.  This entire situtaion is 100% caused by the Fed and their banker puppets.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:01 | 1786479 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Well said.  It surprises me that shills even attept to influence minds here on ZH anymore.  I can't think of a more inappropriate and unseemly place for their efforts.  Who do they think is going to take them seriously?  Chumbawamba?  Nigger, please.

-Chumblez.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:14 | 1786581 pods
pods's picture

You can suggest whatever you want.  Bastiat would puke then give you a big fat I told you so when he saw just how legalized our plunder truly is.

Tough shit if my defaulting leads to everyone's loss.  That is your issue with the "lender."

If the "lender" cannot make up for the "loan" loss through the asset in question, who's fault is that?  Mine?

That is as dumb as saying nobody can buy anything because the demand will increase the price for everyone else.

Why is it that only the small people have to play by some quaint moral code when everyone else sees plays by what is best for them economically?

pods

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:11 | 1786037 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

Lib, you are not thinking things through in a holistic fashion.

If this was just about Chumba or me or you, that would be one thing.  But we are talking about a system that was SET UP in order to ENSLAVE the world.

Do you think I knew what fractional reserve banking was, upon graduation from High School (at the top of my class or not)?  Fiat money?  Do you think the fact that people were told (adamantly, by loan officers, usually) that wage inflation would make their debts easier to pay had ANY part to play?

People have been miseducated, uneducated, subject to disinformation, etc.  And most people are naturally trusting of others, which has come back to bite society in the ass big time, as only now do we understand the predatory nature of the private banking cartel, working in concert with the media, military industrial complex, and organized crime.

The system is crooked, its not by accident, and if we don't change it, it will consume us all. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:31 | 1786111 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Boom bust boom bust.

So it was. So it shall ever be.

Even if you take out the Fed.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 18:04 | 1787078 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Awsome retort Pods. I don't really agree with Chumba. However, he is the product of moral hazard. Shedding your debt through bankruptcy is humiliating but it does clear the debt. The only moral outrage that can somewhat quantify Chumbas actions are that the IB's set the example that they are exempt from the law. So Chumba is playing a law of the jungle game with them. It isn't to my taste.

I have and plan on selling every last entity that stole my labor a value product. That helps to lesson the bi-polar swings, mitigates loss and as a man makes you really feel the King of the Jungle! Booyah bitches!

I consider you Chumba as having a lack of creativity even if in real terms you may be leveling the playing field in your favor. Problem is, your way multiplies losses onto the public as that Libertarian correctly stated.

I will say that if ALL the citizenship of this country ate the shit sandwich together after the big debt party back in 2008, OWS wouldn't exist. As for the criminals it would now be hard for you to recommend justice because your position is one of a sort of revenge. Revenge and justice are two entirely different concepts.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 15:58 | 1790135 chumbawamba
chumbawamba's picture

Well, then fuck the public.  I followed the rules the "public" set up.  They didn't work out so well, I woke up, realized I was being had, and made my own law, which is my right, being the Sovereign of my Domain.

So you don't agree with it, fine.  I can accept that.  It certainly doesn't change my mind or the fact that I am the righteous one in all of this.  And like it or not, I shall prevail.

I am Chumbawamba.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:48 | 1785948 The_Nihilist
The_Nihilist's picture

Jubilee NOW!!!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:00 | 1785995 striving4simple
striving4simple's picture

Chumbawamba is correct.

Strictly speaking what we use as a currency isn't MONEY, it's CREDIT.

Our legal tender ceased being money when it ceased being backed by a physical asset.

How many high school or even college graduates know the three functions of money?

It's a joke, they get an education to earn something ("money") but they've never been taught what money is supposed to be.

This lack of knowledge is one of the root causes for our current problems.

It is simple.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:01 | 1786004 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Right, the assholes offering unlimited credit to bad credit risks had nothing to do with it.

To you, everything evil originates from the individual and his attempts to be free, while everything good originates from the state and its repression.  You claim that anyone who is a slave has no right to attempt to escape.  Anything done by a slave other than absolute obedience to his master is hypocritical in your eyes.  You have demonstrated this over and over again.

You are filth.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:11 | 1786032 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

and you are an idiot.

these "slaves"  are free men and women making choices.  mostly bad choices because they are stupid and weak.  do the banks prey on this weakness?  of course.  that is the natural order of things.  but the worthless "credit"  that the banks extended to the "slaves"  was used by the slaves to buy "stuff" that they had to have/wanted/needed.  It was a fair exchange and now the "slaves"  realizing that their loser lives of bad choices have not improved want to welch

well boo fucking hoo.  sorry the plasma tv didnt change your life.   maybe you should have spent the dough on an education.

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:18 | 1786058 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

You are completely ignoring the fact that the nations credit binge co-incided with the outsourcing of Manufacturing out of North America.  Hence, quality of life was going down, but the bankers allowed a credit binge in order to minimize the political effect (people rioting, protesting, etc.) and allow the illusion of increasing quality of life to continue.

You think this was a happy accident?  Banks working on one hand, corporations working on the other? Really?

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:19 | 1786063 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Uhhh, what the fuck are you on about?  You saying that people who had manageable debt, but then lost their jobs deserve to be enslaved for the rest of their lives?  To have their wages garnished?  Their property seized and auctioned?

Here's a hint, jackass.  The 13th amendment made slavery illegal.  YOU CAN'T OWN SLAVES in this country.  That means that people are free to walk away from their debts.  They just have to accept the consequences of that, ie they can't get more credit for a long, long time.  

But here you are blathering on about how these people deserve this or that, while making NO MENTION of the fact that the people who offered these loans KNOWING FULL WELL that these people were bad credit risks bear no responsibility for their actions.  They didn't do their due diligence, so they in fact deserve to lose every penny they loaned out, just like everyone who has ever lent money to down on their luck friends or relatives.

Also note that since student debt is no longer dischargeable in bankruptcy, real slavery is back.  No whips, but that doesn't mean that a large portion of the fruits of your labors won't be taken from you by irresistible force.

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 05:43 | 1788100 Tedster
Tedster's picture

That Amendment did not outlaw slavery. Jus' Sayin'.

".....except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted."

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:21 | 1786064 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

don't disturb the meme Dave. they don't like it. personal responsibility ain't a virtue around here.....

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:29 | 1786104 tmosley
tmosley's picture

What is responsible about lending tens of thousands of dollars to college students with now source of income other than more loans?

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:45 | 1786160 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

OK, now I see it your way.

The bank loan officer shouldnt have been allowed to make loans to deadbeats/negros/unmarried women/bad credit risks. It should have been illegal and the bankers should be going to jail.

Why didnt you pipe up before?  It would have saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:48 | 1786171 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Why do I need to tell them this?  Bankers know what a bad credit risk is.  Nice job on painting me as a racist though.  Funny, since you are the one advocating a return to slavery.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:56 | 1786184 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Your comparison of fat middle class deadbeats with plasma tvs, i phones and air conditioning to "slaves"  is pretty shameful.

but what the hell if Krugman says so, it must be true

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:08 | 1786218 tmosley
tmosley's picture

So someone who has their money systematically taken from them by force is what, exacly?

I guess the house slaves in the old South who lived indoors and had nice clothes weren't slaves either?  I guess the skilled craftsmen slaves of the North in the Colonial era who were able to work on the side for extra cash, and were allowed to own some of the modern conveniences of the day weren't slaves either?

I guess the sex slaves clad in silk and gold weren't slaves either?  I guess the great and powerful gladiators weren't slaves as well?

You are a fucking retard.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:14 | 1786240 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Your leaps of illogic are truly staggering.

sex slaves?  really?  comparing a sex slave to an out of work college grad who just spent five bitchin years partying, gettign laid and studying humanities and now cant find a job.  A slave?

you are fucking hopeless mosely

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:38 | 1786376 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Dave, you're being willfully obtuse.  It is the bankers JOB to make sure he lends to responsible people who can pay back the loan. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:39 | 1786385 tmosley
tmosley's picture

From Wikipedia:

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property and are forced to work.[1] Slaves can be held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase or birth, and deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to demand compensation. Conditions that can be considered slavery include debt bondageindentured servitudeserfdomdomestic servants kept in captivity, adoption in which children are effectively forced to work as slaves, child soldiers, and forced marriage.[2]

You claim that people aren't slaves because they own a few trinkets.  You are the hopeless one, you ignorant fuck.  Take your slave trading ass and get out of my country.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:41 | 1786145 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

There is a word for the act of praying on individual weakness and ignorance, it is called fraud.  And there is a concept in law that holds that any party to a contract or transaction which is in a superior position (larger and richer with more tools to know future possibilities like financial wherewithall and legal staff) has the duty to disclose such advantages and possible pitfalls of a given transaction.  Failure to do so can and usually will result in nullification of the transaction should such be petitioned in court, and could - when it was willfully done to gain immorally - result in civil liability. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:49 | 1786172 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

Sorry son, bank loan officers, student loan brokers and credit card companies arent fiduciaries.  But I'm sure the trial lawyers are working on that one right now.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:40 | 1786386 weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

He's not talking about fiduciaries.  He's talking about an adhesive contract.  And his point is valid.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:46 | 1786163 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Fair exchange? Where's my printing press? How do I get to be able to loan out money I don't have? If I try to do that, I get put in jail. When banks do it, they're "providing liquidity".

If you want fair, start with requiring banks to disclose their reserves, and requiring them to explain the risks of fractional reserve to potential borrowers. At the same time, end legal tender laws that force people to use only "dollars" issued by the Federal Reserve as payment of debts. And while that happens, end the unconstitutional Fed, and allow the market to determine interest rates as well as what to use as currencies.

Once that's done, then we can start talking about 'fair'. What you're doing is blaming the people for a system that uses force to give legal favor to those who control and create currency and artificial interest rates.

True, this system was created over time with the 'consent' of the governed (who were lied to at every turn by politicians). And in that respect the people 'deserve' what they get. But by a like token, if we're going to play the game of mob rule versus a trashed Constitution, the people giveth, and the people taketh away. If you're going to assert that democracy has the right to enslave the public into debt, then you also have to allow democracy the right to destroy the debt system. (Personally I think it's a moot point because neither democracy nor debt-slavery have the right to extra-Constitutional existence. But then again, saying it's a moot point is also a moot point because, well, here we are with both extra-Constitutional democracy and debt-slavery.)

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 18:28 | 1787125 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

I would completely agree with you on principle except for three items you are disingerously leaving out:

1) The citizens do not control interest rates and therefore are subject to purchasing power erosion.

2) The intent of debt issuance was to mask the effects of prolonged and accelerated outsourcing.

3) Banking owns government and bankers make loans not run fiscal policy. Should the average citizen be fully aware of how Central Banking operates? I suppose some of us are truly genius enough to become expert in multiple fields of study? Do you include yourself in that camp?

If so, then this is why Ron Paul will never be elected (I do love his fight for this country) but knee-jerk 'all the proles are losers' would never win an election even if Ron Paul was featured every day in the MSM. Frankly, the time to stop the final looting before the Fed 100 year expired was 2008. WE collectively failed. Not that at that time there was much of a shot anyways. So much whistling past the graveyard. I am pissed too. But now I know I will get my country back even if it is maggot-filled Buffalo meat to feed the tribe for the long, lonely winter.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:55 | 1786180 fuu
fuu's picture

A word cloud of your last 10 posts is funny.

http://imageshack.us/f/204/rnrlfprandomcomments.png/

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:46 | 1786392 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

do the chickend hav large talons?

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:54 | 1786443 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

Quit bitching about the wrong decesions the sheep have made and defending the wolves. Those that print the money out of thin air based on free credit are causing the problem, not the uneducated naive people who take the bait. Asshole. Go back and sit your ass down and watch Bill O'Riley troll. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:56 | 1785970 taint
taint's picture

good to have chamba back posting

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 18:10 | 1787089 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Great thought CB, however I would put it this way. The bare facts say  this is indeed 'debt surfdom". The road to debt surfdom is the  illusion you speak of. Along this road life was easy and it was easy to be distracted from what really matters. As we each ride off into our own illusuary sunset we are now confronted with the folly of our ways. The wages of folly is high. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 21:55 | 1787537 pvzh
pvzh's picture

Although the money created through the extension of credit have not existed before the credit was extended, the money are "real" and bid up prices in the economy, and that creates collateral damage (savings get debased). Therefore, the debtor as co-conspirator and accomplice must be penalized by paying back what they owe plus interest (as a fine). The thing is that a bank is not entitled to receive benefits of interest payments since that was fraudulent activity. Current banks should be seized as criminal enterprises and orderly liquidated by paying out all debts issued by them (paying out principle and retiring these fraudulent money from circulation).

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:42 | 1785693 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

wish they could have use a vampire squid....

badgers are cute, i had one as a pet...

she liked donuts....

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:54 | 1785741 Ruffcut
Ruffcut's picture

Even you pay this shit off, you can't escape tax burdens. Property, sales , licenses, phone and cable services, and the churches begging for money is a tax on the soul. But I took my soul offshore. A better deal.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:48 | 1786169 faustian bargain
faustian bargain's picture

Someone looking for a deal? }:->

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:19 | 1785593 pauhana
pauhana's picture

Ya load 16 tons and whadda ya get?  Another day older and deeper in debt.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:39 | 1785673 Nascent_Variable
Nascent_Variable's picture

As people get angrier, and the crooks in Washington fight to maintain the status quo, we may very well see a widely popular, organized movement to default on debt.  A debt strike, if you will.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:40 | 1785685 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Will happen eventually anyway.  Just like turnips of a thousand years ago, you still can't get blood out of the modern turnip either.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:54 | 1785739 imapopulistnow
imapopulistnow's picture

Recent graduates will be the source.  No way many can pay back student loans. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:56 | 1785749 imapopulistnow
imapopulistnow's picture

btw China is buying Europe's infrastructure assets today.  Tomarrow they will buy ours.  We will still be the serfs but with new masters.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:52 | 1785960 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Don't be silly. Look a little South to Venezuela to see how permanent foreign ownership of local assets can be. China would "own" our assets as long as we put up with it and not a second longer. Think of it as an economic Monroe Doctrine.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:39 | 1785679 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

And you owe your soul to the company store.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:19 | 1785594 Dumpster Fire
Dumpster Fire's picture

Let's say a household owns a house

 

It makes it go down easier when you realize that we really don't own this shit sandwich...or anything for that matter. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:40 | 1785680 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

+1

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:42 | 1786150 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Yep. Stop paying taxes and you'll see just who owns your stuff.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:20 | 1785598 Bolweevil
Bolweevil's picture

Did Chuck just figure this out?

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:33 | 1785652 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture

My thought exactly... I really like CHS but this is not his usual quality. I assume the next installment will have some useful information.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:03 | 1786014 downtownshuter
downtownshuter's picture

I think the only major point he was trying to make here is that even many people who look like they have a nice net worth do not in fact, since it is all tied up in a home and retirement accounts. So there are a lot more debt slaves out there than many people are realizing. That's what I got out of it

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:24 | 1785600 css1971
css1971's picture

There is more debt in existence than there is credit... We are all insolvent, though only a few know it. The system was designed to keep us all that way.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:37 | 1785657 depression
depression's picture

It's a Wonderful Life

now shaddup n eat ur peas

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:23 | 1785601 bbelux
bbelux's picture

Well this is not peticulary an USA specific issue. Most of us are living on the discounted cashflow living style. Get a job, get a mortgage to buy an house. If it's handled with care this should not lead to insolvency! A one third ratio for the monthly debt service / monthly income is still manageable.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:32 | 1785643 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Wrong, you need energy for that house and the entire economic and monetary system is built on infinite growth (and hence infinite, cheap, available energy) in a very finite world.   The cost (with respect to energy input and capital input) for recovering and refining any given energy source is rising and hence the return on these investments is declining. None of this is sustainable and will, regardless of what anyone believes, result in a decreasing standard of living worldwide.  But hey Americans especially could stand to be a little thinner anyway.  Hedge accordingly.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:36 | 1785659 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Fat <> Affluent.  Look at some of the fattest nations.  Sure the US is up there, but so is Mexico and Samoa.  Don't think that people are going to make the claim that those damn super wealthy Samoans or Mexicans could stand to lose some money.  Fat is largely a an issue with what passes as food these days.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:42 | 1785690 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Still, I'd prefer the Samoan diet, although not their particular choice for an ideal woman.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:42 | 1785692 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

"pass the poi, Mahala".  Hat tip to Wayne and Garth

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:53 | 1785737 bbelux
bbelux's picture

Well actually the budget for energy at the 1/3 ratio should be around 1/15 to 1/20 of a yearly repayment, do the math with your own aquisition. And i'm pretty sure you will handle perfectly well an increase inenergy prices.

Plus did you pay attention to the natural gaz price since june 2008? Again, do your math, we are speaking of a 60% percent loss here...did you felt unconfortable repaying your loan in 2008?

 

Stick with a 30% ratio for your total debt burden, you will be able to save, and face downturns, even job losses if you are disciplined.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:24 | 1785864 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

First, you act as if rational thinking and prevailent math skills are the norm among the population.  Second, what is the SNAP program really costing in terms of capital?  Sure, with over 30% of all the fossil fuel being burnt in this country solely to feed us, sounds like a winning plan.  Good luck with that (although admittedly my debt burden is below 12% - but again, you and I are not the norm).

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:21 | 1785602 yabyum
yabyum's picture

"Maybe if we sell Grandma's silver flatware at the dancing chicken check cashing joint" Sad ays indeed.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:23 | 1785613 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Maybe we can just sell grandma to some Mexican drug mules...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:29 | 1785636 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

That's for the young with strong backs.  You'll get a better rate taking her further south to wade in the kerosene filled coca paste pits.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:40 | 1785686 Bear
Bear's picture

Best bet is just keep collecting her Social Security paymments ... with new COLA, she's a real asset

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:22 | 1785607 Conrad Murray
Conrad Murray's picture

The debt serfs deserve their burden. The price of ignorance is PAIN you slaves. Either kill the bankers and politicians, or sit down and shut the fuck up.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:32 | 1785649 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

In the meantime, at least close your bank account or move it to a local credit union.  Keep just enough at the CU to cash checks and pay your bills each month, the rest should be converted to something with real value (Kyle Bass suggested guns and gold).

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:36 | 1785660 css1971
css1971's picture

You muppet.

You are just as much a debt serf. You are just as stuck, neck deep in the system as the rest of the world is.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 19:47 | 1787298 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

Not only that but getting an education and continuing your enlightenment over the years after school is no assurance of even getting a job no less extracting oneself from debt slavery.  Once wealth is as concentrated as it now is it is the property of those who -trust me- refuse to part with it.  In the meantime the pool of available wealth for the rest is shrinking even as our numbers grow with population so our existentially minute sliver of the wealth and income is shrinking faster than your dick on a frosty morning.   

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:22 | 1785609 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Yep... Indeed.

But beyond the US citizenish fantasical duplicity, one must remember that debt has been historically the priviledge of free men.

Serfs were not allowed into debt. Debt helps too much consumption so...

Poor US citizens who enjoy life on debt when solvent people all around the world are coerced to yield their wealth to sustain the US citizen way of life...

So harsh to be a US citizen...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:27 | 1785632 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

Quit your damn whining and get back to work.  If those new "midnight basketball" courts aren't finished, there may be a riot or something.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:32 | 1785640 akak
akak's picture

So harsh to be a US citizen...

So sad to be a perpetually bitter, hate-filled and irrelevant troll .....

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:41 | 1785687 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

I don't see many US citizens around. Mostly illegal aliens from countries like yours where people are even more spectacularly unable to organize themselves then in the US. Hard to believe that's even possible but your brethren standing on the corner to work for $10/day make it true.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:13 | 1785822 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Ah, but the capacity to organise calls for means.

And the US keep suppressing local consumption capacity so that more can be exported to the US.

So of course,they are less able to organize as the means are monopolized by US citizens.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 19:54 | 1787312 boiltherich
boiltherich's picture

It is not the fault of the USA when other nations deliberately choose the path of mercantilism.  And that is what you are talking about whether you know it or not, but we also have trade with many, most nations which are not mercantilists, if you want to end what you claim is the American tradde advantage then end all dollar pegs, but it is not we who peg the dollar or even demand it be the reserve currency, at least aside from oil pricing, but that is actually to the benefit of all other economic players because without relatively stable oil prices the USA is no longer the engine pulling the mercantilist train.  It is not as easy as some people think to transform a mercantilist economy to one sustained upon internal consumption. 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:58 | 1785765 pods
pods's picture

Hey An, haven't heard your explanation for your earlier proclamation about lack of protests in the US due to the world being run for the benefit of the US citizen.

Surely you remember that eh?

pods

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:05 | 1785782 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

pods, it all boils down to hair color.  You must have missed his last installment of irrelevant babble.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:15 | 1785827 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

pods, it all boils down to hair color. You must have missed his last installment of irrelevant babble.
////////////////////////////////////////////////////

A mere observation. Most protesters are dark haired.How does it come that light haired people are so absent from the demonstrations?

US citizens can keep escaping reality...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:26 | 1785873 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

it must be that "work" gene.   How come all those light skin and hair folks, despite the handicap of a non-tropical, harsh climate, moved to dominate the world for the past 1200 years or so?  And this after a mini ice age stopped a previous run and set them back 500 years or so.

History, like math, is HARD.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:35 | 1786681 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

it must be that "work" gene. How come all those light skin and hair folks,

///////////////////////////////////////////////////

US citizens call it work. Elsewhere, it is known as theft...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:27 | 1785879 pods
pods's picture

Cause the world is being run for our benefit right?

pods

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:29 | 1785889 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

You are invited to come and live in my reality anytime!  Though, I doubt you could handle the work!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:10 | 1786226 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Most people in America have dark hair, you fucking moron.

There is no class seperation between hair colors in America, for fucks sake.  

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 18:50 | 1787186 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

What country are you in? Is your argument that your country will be one of the very next countries to receive the 'eternal' US citizens externality dumping? Or are you arguing that the U.S. should stop externalizing?

One last question. Let's pretend it's 1550 and your in the Monarchy ruling the Netherlands. How do you stop the Spanish Empire from externalizing? Was the Spanish people's nature eternal?

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:11 | 1785812 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Of course, I remember.

So what? Has something happened to negate that statement?

Please tell.

But please dont tell that the OWS are somehow enough to instill doubt.

The world has not enough resources to maintain US citizens in their lavish life style, more and more are going to be tossed out of the bowl.

Expect resentment from those US citizens.

Does change one bit the made observation. You can only give what you have and in the case of the US, it can only give what it robs, not more.

If at the end of the day, you have not got your share of loot,too bad...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:25 | 1785871 pods
pods's picture

You mean your statement about there not being protests in the US because the world is being run for the interests of the US citizens?

pods

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:40 | 1786712 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

It was about riot and general social movements.

It is not physically possible for the US to escape discontentment movements.

It is what is happening: not enough wealth around the world to maintain the population of extorters of the weak and farmers of the poor entire. This site is filled with this type of resentful US citizens.

But there will be no riot. Nobility do not riot.

Too many US citizens, not enough Indians.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:59 | 1786810 pods
pods's picture

Hmmm, general social movements.  That almost sounds like the TEA party, you know, Taxed Enough Already?

Or that other one that is going on...........

So now it is the Nobility do not riot?  Shall we check back in say, 6 months?  

Cause once austerity comes ashore here you might want to rethink that one.

pods

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 17:45 | 1787011 tmosley
tmosley's picture

What, I thought the "dark haired" people were the underclass in America?

You can't even keep your stupid bullshit straight.  Why do you think anyone would ever take you seriously?

Wed, 10/19/2011 - 00:55 | 1787927 akak
akak's picture

It is almost enough to make me feel pity to behold a mindless troll such as AnonymousAsshole, who is filled to overflowing with inchoate hate and bitterness, while at the same time being so profoundly ignorant and, yes, stupid.  His blanket and utterly collectivist condemnations of the people of the USA are simply a sign of an intellectually and morally bankrupt individual.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:09 | 1785798 SoNH80
SoNH80's picture

Why don't you post criticisms of your home country's government on your home country's websites? Worried that you'd be taken away?  Or that you'd be fired?  1 Yuan a post, it's a living..... keeps the chop suey on the table I guess.....

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:25 | 1785870 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

SoNH80 you are just an American bully!!! Stop pestering the nice PLA poster!!

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:39 | 1786040 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

I am with you on that, my bet he is PLA. Not good enough to be a hacker so he must be a meer puppet.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:51 | 1786782 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh.

Bully is a trait of the eternal US citizen nature.

Another point is that facts do not need to be fabricated and propagated.

US citizens claiming that people might be paid to state facts is funny as funny.

That is the big issue for US citizens: lies dont exist without people to profess them. You might need to pay people to tell them.

Facts exist by themselves, telling them or not has no incidence on the existence of facts.

The fact is that the US has transfered a lot of wealth to themselves thanks to debt. Told or not, it wont changethe fact.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 19:03 | 1787208 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

An Anon. Ever been to Hong Kong? I heard financeers of all nationalities are great at playing hide the sausage. Is the nature of sausage making eternal?

Whatever your doing, the intel strategy is really poor. Just email me sometime so we can play chess: jrines@ragingdebate.com . Tell you what. We each choose a neutral observer to three games. The loser admits defeat publically and stops posting.

Deal? Because in the end An Anon, life itself is really just one big game of vanity fair.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 19:27 | 1787254 EvlTheCat
EvlTheCat's picture

No, the funny thing AnA is that your conditioning is so thoroughly, complete. Whenever I purposely uses one of your favorite trigger words you fall all over yourself drooling like Pavlov's dog, spouting propaganda.

Here is one more for you citizemism...  The understanding of which, you still can not grasp.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 22:00 | 1787550 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Yeah, this dude is a 2d thinker. Send in Putin next. I mean it. I would wager Putin would shred some intellectual ass. But one must always fear the Bear even if you respect it or not.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 13:27 | 1785878 marcusfenix
marcusfenix's picture

hey, asshole come live in my America, stay on my side of the tracks for a day you ignorant, judgmental fuck.

must be nice, the view from the cheap seats...

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 14:45 | 1786158 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

To me it looks like a trap we fell in.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkdra0N3N11qcqktno1_500.gif


 

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 16:59 | 1786812 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

"people all around the world are coerced to yield their wealth to sustain the US citizen way of life..."

Sounds like you have a problem with the way your government operates. US citizens aren't demanding jack from you, if your government is feeding the beast, talk to them.

 

 

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:24 | 1785618 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Stupid article.  No shit, so the vast majority of the world is a debt serf.  Humanity itself is one big house of cards and the laws of Nature make no promises regarding your survival.  Yawn.  As far as those "invisible assets" go, my neighbors and I have some invisible bullets for all the paper-pushing fucknuts that got us into this mess.  

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:25 | 1785621 marcusfenix
marcusfenix's picture

in 100 years from now historians will be writing about the plague of the 21st century...debt.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 12:37 | 1785672 Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

The Laws of Physics and The Laws of Nature will always win (in the end). And yes, we will be in the history books alright and everyone will be saying – WTF were they thinking.

Tue, 10/18/2011 - 15:20 | 1786280 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Ashes, ashes, we all fall down.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!