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Guest Post: Drone Warfare In America

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Submitted by John Aziz of Azizonomics

Drone Warfare in America

How would Obama supporters feel if they learned that their beloved President was running far-to-the-authoritarian-right of arch-hawk Charles Krauthammer on one particular civil liberties issue?

Sadly, the answer is that the most Obama supporters probably wouldn’t feel very much at all, because support for Obama has always predominantly been emotion-driven (he promised change “you can believe in”, not “change that I can logically convince you will be beneficial“).

But I digress. Charles Krauthammer weighed in on FOX yesterday to telegraph his opposition to bringing drone warfare to the skies of America.

Krauthammer said:

I’m going to go hard left on you here, I’m going ACLU. I don’t want regulations, I don’t want restrictions, I want a ban on this. Drones are instruments of war. The Founders had a great aversion to any instruments of war, the use of the military inside even the United States. It didn’t like standing armies, it has all kinds of statutes of using the army in the country.

 

I would say that you ban it under all circumstances and I would predict, I’m not encouraging, but I am predicting that the first guy who uses a Second Amendment weapon to bring a drone down that’s been hovering over his house is going to be a folk hero in this country.

 

The Founders we’re deeply opposed to the militarisation of civil society. There is all kinds of aversions to it and this is importing it because, as you say, it’s cheap, it’s easy, it’s silent. It’s something that you can easily deploy. It’s going to be, I think the bane of our existence. Stop it here, stop it now.

And this is a big deal. A recent report by Micah Zenko noted:

Worried about the militarization of U.S. airspace by unmanned aerial vehicles? As of October, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) had reportedly issued 285 active certificates for 85 users, covering 82 drone types. The FAA has refused to say who received the clearances, but it wasestimated over a year ago that 35 percent were held by the Pentagon, 11 percent by NASA, and 5 percent by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). And it’s growing. U.S. Customs and Border Protection already operates eight Predator drones. Under pressure from the congressional Unmanned Systems Caucus – yes, there’s already a drone lobby, with 50 members — two additional Predators were sent to Texas in the fall, though a DHS official noted: “We didn’t ask for them.” Last June, a Predator drone intended to patrol the U.S.-Canada border helped locate three suspected cattle rustlers in North Dakota in what was the first reported use of a drone to arrest U.S. citizens.

But I’m going to go even further than the threat to civil liberties: I am fairly certain that the militarisation of U.S. airspace by drones is itself a huge national security threat. While Zenko notes that drones “tend to crash”, the downing of a U.S. drone over Iran late last year — supposedly via an Iranian hack — seems to suggest that it is possible for drones to be commandeered by hackers or hostile powers. And if that’s not the case today, then it almost certainly will be tomorrow. Putting drones into the air above the United States is like going to sleep on a bed of dynamite. It’s an invitation to anyone to try and commandeer a plane, possibly one stocked with high-tech weaponry.

The Federal government would do well to quit groping Grandma at the TSA checkpoint, and start worrying about the potential negative side-effects of systems they are putting into place. All the TSA security theater in the world cannot stop a determined hacker from commandeering a drone.

Charles Krauthammer is right (and after the Iraq invasion which he championed I never thought I would say that): it could be the bane of our existence. Stop it here. Stop it now.

 


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Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:01 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

You're welcome.  Thanks for the concession speech.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:55 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

My pleasure.  Anyting to stop your inane chatter.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:29 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Heh.  You mean the Declaration of Independence?

I dunno.  Who cares?  It has nothing to do with the Constitution.

I guess when you die you'll have to ask 'em. 

Common sense would suggest it concerned the residents of the colonies.  Back then, unborn babies weren't considered people because many of them didn't survive birth.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:46 | Link to Comment Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

They gave less than a single fuck about womens rights.

Fixed it.

They would have been seriously pissed about abortion though. Sign of a sick socitey that kills its unborn to maintain a good standard of living. I have a suspicion only the most heavily controlled cultures can convince their womenfolk to go against their natural instinct and kill the unborn so they might maintain a standard of living. Only a socitey that has been tampered with economically would have such an unbalance that so many children are being born out of wedlock that an abortion industry forms to supply the demand. They would have told the women not to get knocked up being a whore in the first place.That bastard is one more settler and possibly a damn good one as well.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:31 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

That's total bullshit, probably a result of having no exposure to early US history and the politics of the period. 

If you really knew something about this stuff, you might be able to present ANY kind of documentation from ANY of the original signers of the Constitution that suggests they would've cared one whit what pregnant women did with themselves.

You won't, though, because they DIDN'T.  The entire idea of abortion barely entered into anyone's consciousness until the early 20th century, and it was largely an issue among the same kind of radical crazies who eventually brought on Prohibition.

It's a lot easier to make up stories about dead guys than it is to learn about what happened.  Most folks will never know the difference.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:02 | Link to Comment Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Only a statist would think to pose such a foolish question, for if we are following the single tenet of natural law, it is of absolutely no consequence to YOU what anyone else believes, as by this single tenet, they explicitly have no "right" or "power" of any sort with which to "legally" coerce you - they try it, you pump em full of lead.

Try to get it through your skull - there is only 1 tenet: "aggression is inherently illegitimate" - self-defense is the sole exception, now go live your life peacefully, and everyone else will as well, as those who don't won't live long enough to repeat their mistake.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:12 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

What tablet is that one tenet of natural law written on again?  Where may I find it?  And does it have a footnote or an asterisk on the one exception you mention?  Shall we crown you King and have you tell us all which laws exist and which don't?  Oh, there we have that problem again that my definition of freedom and liberty may differ from yours, and the only way to resolve that in your favor would be to have you be the authority and me be your subject.  But then we're right into that problem of statism again.  How messy for the simple thinkers.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:47 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"detriment of 43 million and counting"

I call BS.  Same people that make these lame arguments are more than happy to drop bombs on children all over the globe.  When you fuckers can STOP pretending that THAT is OK is the day that I'd start to believe that you really give a shit.

BTW - Nature has all sorts of mechanisms for altering reproduction, all based on the environment's ability to support populations: Natives (not ideologically controlled) also had mechanisms.  BUT, today's humans, unlike way in the past, can give birth all throughout the calendar year.

Strange bedfellows and all... the "left" and their "humanitarian aid" is also on the same page as you in that they are looking to "protect life" (but they have to count actual already born people).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:26 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Same people that make these lame arguments are more than happy to drop bombs on children all over the globe.

Don't call BS on me.  I haven't made any statement in support of dropping bombs on anyone.  Nice of you to generalize, though, but keep the discussion on point.  If you disagree with my view on abortion, so be it.  But don't arbitrarily extend it to other forms of killing.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:49 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

If the shoe fits.  Are you spending as MUCH energy in stopping bombs? I fucking doubt it.

And yes, BS on you.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:58 | Link to Comment mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

Always finding labels with which to group people, you libs.  Truth is what you fear most is the reality that stares back at you in the mirror. 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:55 | Link to Comment Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Thats how you see through the bullshit. Amnesty will write letters for a rapist on death row but denounce nations that dont confirm a womens right to abortion. Christians will decry abortion but cheer on bombing the hell out of children in foriegn lands. If the man here denounces killing kids in Vietnam and the unborn in America hes probably thinking and not some indoctrinated peice of shit or worse yet some prick getting paid to come up with logical fallacies.

We can debate long and hard about when its right to take a life and who can make that decision.

I think were probably on the same page here, what worries me are these U.S Aid funded "poverty eradication campaigns" tied to a free and easy view of sex. On one hand they don't want people having kids but on the other hand they want sexual liberty. Can't have both, any more than you can smoke crack every day and expect to function well in socitey.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:42 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

   free and easy view of sex.

Rest easy: I'm pretty sure no one's ever taken such a view of sex with YOU.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 13:32 | Link to Comment Watauga
Watauga's picture

Maghreb:  Pls identify a Christian who cheers "bombing the hell out of children in foreign lands."  I have noticed alot of Muslims who cheered the 9/11 murders and other atrocities, but I have never see a Christian mob cheering such things. 

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 13:35 | Link to Comment Watauga
Watauga's picture

Pls identify those who "are more than happy to drop bombs on children all over the globe."  Who is that?  Not a single person I know falls into that category.  Who are they?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:58 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So your problem is that they protect religious freedom including atheism? 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:55 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

No, his problem is that they're selective about which freedoms to defend.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:10 | Link to Comment LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So it's no good to take on some causes for freedom unless you take on them all?  

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:51 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

No, just that they keep from "killing" future drone targets! (unless they're not white Christians - giveaway was the knee-jerking about the ACLU being atheists)

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:03 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

  Why does he think he's going "hard left"?  This is about individual sovereignty, which leftists want to confiscate at every turn.

Didn't you know? The Founders were commies!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:34 | Link to Comment Umh
Umh's picture

They were a lot of things, but commies isn't quite on the mark. Subversive and radical compared to most politicians today, but then getting reelected didn't occur to them immediately.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:55 | Link to Comment BigJim
BigJim's picture

I see /sarc tag is still needed for some people.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:57 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

No, they were more fascist than anything else*.  To the British they were commies: breaking away as a "collective."

Govt was formed mostly to promote business.  Really, govt ISN'T necessary for this!  Things quickly picked up their true colors when Hamilton's way trumped that of Jefferson's (this is all messed up by the fact that Jefferson had slaves- if not for this he'd have been the true model- kind of hard to argue using a hypocrite as an example).

But... seems to me that there were functional groups of people BEFORE there was a Constitution.  And lots was observed from the native heathens (who, many here could mistake as commies; things aren't black and white).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:19 | Link to Comment Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Obummer's supporters follow him blindly. If this was done by Bush they would be up in arms. And the same holds true for the Bushwaker supporters...they let that fuck get away with murder too.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:59 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Ain't ideologies grant? </sarc>

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:21 | Link to Comment Steel_Preacher
Steel_Preacher's picture

Welcome to the future of Skynet...

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:27 | Link to Comment Gloomygus
Gloomygus's picture

Management hereby declares that Independence Day be moved from July 4, 1776 to November 22, 1963. So it has been written and so it shall be done.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:02 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Why red arrows?

POWER does this kind of shit, hijacks rituals and dates.  Religions have a pretty good track record of this.  It's "re-branding."  Take over the date and or name and you delude its power from its previous history/peoples.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:22 | Link to Comment writingsonthewall
writingsonthewall's picture

this guy is a right wing asshole who thinks it's OK to fly drones over Iraq and Afghanistan - but is horrified at the same being used over the skies of America.

 

What a shame this self interested prick only cares for his outlook and not that of the murdered Iraqi and Afghan innocents.

 

Yeah, nobody wants drones over their heads - maybe if this prick was to be taken seriously he would call for the end to ALL unmanned warfare.

 

I hope they fucking crash one into his house.

I hear FOX were suggesting shooting them down - yeah, great idea FOX - it's a little different when a drone is shot down in the Bora Bora's compared to over wisconsin - for starters there are not primary schools in Bora Bora for them to crash into!

 

Still - when have the right wing EVER thought ANYTHING through.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:27 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

to the satanist elites currently running the show, there is little to no difference between the average american and an Afghan villager... 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

You are correct, and with unemployment and the SNAP program growing the way it is, soon American society will look no different than Afghan society.  Know your local warlord?  You better.  Prosecute the fraud, restore the rule of law, at all levels, otherwise the fate of America is sealed.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:09 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"soon American society will look no different than Afghan society."

It'll look more sustainable?

I'm sorry, but let's not look to denigrate a culture that's managed to survive.  Not saying that I WANT Their culture, just saying that they've got a much better track record than we have.  Other than the Saudis who may or may not have launched the 9/11 attacks who may or may not have really based their operation from there, the Afghans don't exactly have the record of running around the globe looking polished/civilized and/while they slaughter tons of people.

When oil runs dry they'll just keep going.  The US, and the rest of the "civilized world," will start looking more like the barbarians that they really are: not saying it's individuals, just the institutions (govt, business etc.).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:19 | Link to Comment Iwanttoknow
Iwanttoknow's picture

Good to see you back.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:59 | Link to Comment Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Afghan villagers have years of experience and training so are shit hard to hit.......Americans...like shooting fat people in SUV's

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:20 | Link to Comment cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Worried about the militarization of U.S. airspace by unmanned aerial vehicles?

Um ... actually no.

The vibe around here is getting a little weirded out.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:53 | Link to Comment WonderDawg
WonderDawg's picture

Yeah. The DHS purchasing 450 million rounds of hollowpoints will do that to you.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:23 | Link to Comment AurorusBorealus
AurorusBorealus's picture

Umm... actually... Jane's Defense Weekly reported recently that congress has mandated 2015 as the deadline for the FAA to create a comprehensive system to integrate unmanned drones into their management of the U.S. airspace network.  So... ummmm...yes... it is the law of the land that U.S. airspace is to be militarized by 2015.

Ummm.... 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:54 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Top Down, literally!  Who it all works...  Little did people realize the true meaning of NASA uniting the country.  NASA, its purpose was ALWAYS about controlling space (which ultimately HAS to be about militarization): initially stocked by ex-Nazi rocket scientists.  But... it's all about protecting property rights, which is a good thing, yes?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:48 | Link to Comment Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

Since the CIA isn't going to be as kind to us as they were with the Mujahideen and supply us with stinger missile launchers it occured to me that a well aimed microwave generator or multi-frequency jammer would be sufficient to scramble a drones communication relay and bring it down.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:20 | Link to Comment fajensen
fajensen's picture

A used sattelite dish and the guts from a microwave oven would make a nice, concentrated, beam - conveniently set on "quite toasty" from the factory. An array of units would be even "moar dakka!" and in a built-up area, the device will be yet another sattelite dish amongst thousands.

One needs a small horn to match the magnetron to the dish. It is probably wise to consult the "ARRL Antenna Book" on the construction details to avoid frying ones nuts and I would run this contraption remote anyway, I like my nuts the way they are now and I don't want to be near a device attacking a combat robot anyway. Better to learn from the Afghanis and stick it on the roof of the orphan'ed childrens hospital, take a little side-bet on the official overreaction.

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:45 | Link to Comment LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

This. 

This is why you can't fuck with Americans.  Out there, somwhere, 20 mother fuckers who don't even know each other are already soldering this shit together.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:30 | Link to Comment tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

Ah yeah. Let's vote on removing the police state. It's been working so well for us.

No more drones! Let's all make signs and go protest so we can waste our fucking time in fantasy land.

Big brother has officially gone full retard and unfortunately he's going to stay that way.

EDIT: Has anyone checked out the new iVote app? It's free and easy to label yourself an extremist, help the government out too and get a facebook page and plaster Ron Paul all over it. Be sure to "check yourself in" when you're partying at your house with your friends too so the drones know where to drop the hammer. Include lat/lon if you can as it takes a lot of the geocoding guess work out of translating addresses to lat/lon.

Let's be sure to integrate that iVote app with the Diebold machine too. Nothing better than the warm embrace of a corproration with such a staunch record at keeping the citizens best interest at heart.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:49 | Link to Comment pepperspray
pepperspray's picture

No Groupon deal? I'm out-

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:23 | Link to Comment knightowl77
knightowl77's picture

Our Gov't does NOT have the RIGHT or the AUTHORITY to spy on US....

If we let this happen, we are sheep

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:28 | Link to Comment tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

If you made a list of the things the government doesn't have the right to do, that it's doing, it would never end.

Get used to it. The grip only gets tighter as control begins to be lost. One of the biggest mistakes we as citizens can make is thinking that this can be solved from within the same government that created it.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:27 | Link to Comment hangemhigh77
hangemhigh77's picture

and the sheeple say  baaaaaaaa baaaa baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:12 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Heh.  I recall when I was saying this way back in '05, folks told me I was anti-American.

Sorry, but the last administration, love 'em or hate 'em, has proven that regardless of some namby-pamby theoretical issue about the Constitution, the government has ASSERTED ITS POWER to spy on us.

Rights and authorities be damned. 

Well, you know what they say: politics is the art of the POSSIBLE.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:36 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

They have the firepower. That's all that matters, unless they lose the will to use the firepower.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:22 | Link to Comment Negro Primero
Negro Primero's picture

"The girl killed by Barack Obama - she never saw it coming" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqqz_KLU4Ys&feature=player_embedded

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:28 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Drone on.

Doesn't anyone remember that North America was declared a battlefield?

http://www.northcom.mil/

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:30 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

They know whats coming soon. Hell, they planned for america being a 'battlefield'.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:42 | Link to Comment Negro Primero
Negro Primero's picture

 

"We have got a long way to go to secure the homeland, to defend freedom and to defeat this enemy. And it's important for the American people to understand that... we now know that thousands of trained killers are plotting to attack us, and this terrible knowledge requires us to act differently."

- President George W. Bush

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

-President Barack Obama
Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:33 | Link to Comment nosesocks
nosesocks's picture

Little did we know those thousands of trained killers were our own government flying robots.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:00 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

The ONLY US Senator to vote against the USA [un]PATRIOT ACT was Russ Feingold.  That fucking commie bastard got his!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:36 | Link to Comment De minimus
De minimus's picture

Yes.

And I believe some of them also declared us, the enemy.

Of course this depends upon who has control of the joystick at any given moment, laws, constitution, bill of rights and anything else they don't like, be damned.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:33 | Link to Comment dwdollar
dwdollar's picture

Jam the drone's communication frequencies, then transmit a pirate GPS signal with false coordinates. The drone will go into failsafe mode because of the communication disruption and try to fly back to base. However, it will fly somewhere else since it's confused about its position.

That's only a guess, but I haven't heard better yet.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:54 | Link to Comment Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

"The Consitution is just a piece of paper." - George Bush

Actually it's a piece of parchment. So there!

That should protect us.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:24 | Link to Comment carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

Does this mean there is going to be a delay in the Nov. Elections?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:38 | Link to Comment BlueCollaredOne
BlueCollaredOne's picture

I'd be pissed if so, that is if I didn't believe the presidential office was a puppet position intended to give the sheep a single focal point to blame problems on. 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:41 | Link to Comment tekhneek
tekhneek's picture

Don't act like it's not all 1 guys fault, you know it is...

/sarc

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:40 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

Soros?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:24 | Link to Comment hangemhigh77
hangemhigh77's picture

What O'Boner supporters are concerned with is who rubs boners or licks carpet with who.  Next I believe we will see O'Boner cross dressing to get votes from transvestites.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:27 | Link to Comment toady
toady's picture

Drones are the "it" weapons system right now, so what is next?

Some sort of anti-drone mini-emp? Computer virus that knocks down drone connectivity? Large numbers of shoulder fired anti-aircraft explosives that target drone frequencies?

Gots to get some of that!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:43 | Link to Comment chunga
chunga's picture

FPS Russia has a machine gun on his drone.

Prototype Quadrotor with Machine Gun!

As always...have a nice day.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:28 | Link to Comment newworldorder
newworldorder's picture

The internal national security structure would like to get us all "a little pregnant" on the militirization of civil police powers within our country. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as being a little pregrant. You are or you are not.

The same applies to military/paramilitary operations within the United States. We either allow it or Not. If we do allow it gradualy, we will have no recourse to complain later.

Our only recouse is to demand that  US Congress and the US courts uphold the spirit and the law of our Constitution, but we have to speak with a loud enough voice to be heard. The choise is ours.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:03 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Ha, ha!

Do people demand a really just system? Well, we'll arrange it so that they'll be satisfied with one that's a little less unjust ... They want a revolution, and we'll give them reforms -- lots of reforms; we'll drown them in reforms. Or rather, we'll drown them in promises of reforms, because we'll never give them real ones either!!

- DARIO FO, Accidental Death of an Anarchist

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:30 | Link to Comment warezdog
warezdog's picture

Won't be long until these are flying grid patterns covering the lower 48 and sending all info back to the NSA facility in Utah. Once patterns are established they'll have an easy time picking up those that don't fit in a routine and isn't it convienent that the 5 DC's are already set up and ready to hold 250K of us who "break" routine.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:35 | Link to Comment the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

Blackmarket for jammers to bring things down will start, what a booming industry.  Oboners drones will fire dildos instead of hellfires to make us all gay.

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:32 | Link to Comment Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

So Friedman wanted helicopters to drop cash to Citizens and now Obama wants to use drones to recover debts

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:18 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Yeah, it's all the libtards fault (pre-empting Fruitless Freddie here)!

Obama, Bush, Clinton, Kissinger speak of New World Order

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y0hVI8Oi8Q

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:33 | Link to Comment wonderatitall
wonderatitall's picture

oh puh leeeze...obama supporters are racist white democrat who pat themselves on the back because they voted in a ignorant racist hatemonger but who is black...they would support and do hitler and stalin and pol pot if they stood by their fraud of a black man....democrats are racist but this way they can say but he is black, dammit.....repubs are silly and useless and the democrat party is corrupt from the man in the street to the incompetent vacationer ...lets just end this blue state ponzi scheme and get the war started these peaceniks have wanted since the 60 's.....viva la revolution comrades.....say hullo to ma leetle friend

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:19 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

You did all you could to show your colors.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:33 | Link to Comment Blue Horshoe Lo...
Blue Horshoe Loves Annacott Steel's picture

Not to mention the fact that drones could be used for false flag attacks.

I can see the headlines: "Iran hackers take command of drone & attack NYC"

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:32 | Link to Comment orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

If the US gov uses drones on their own turf, it's an excuse to use drones anywhere and everywhere else.

 

Next phase of big brother.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment gigeze787
gigeze787's picture

I am sure future President Douglas C. Neidermeyer*, Jr -- documented pro-Vietnam War draft-dodger, schoolyard bully and gaybasher -- but now a reformed, pious Mormon missionary father of eight kids who did not serve in the military during war, will be MUCH more attentive to civil liberties after the 2012 election

When You Obama haters come up with a credible candidate (Jon Huntsman, Chuck Hagel, etc.) instead of Ron Paul, I will gladly contribute.

Until then, all you've got is a bitter, angry, wheelchair-bound Neo-Conservative op-ed writing crypto-fascist -- who LOVED it when Bush militarized American society and used the military as props in every photo-op he could -- but now is trying to act like Thos. Paine.

UFB.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Lampoon's_Animal_House

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:23 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

And your problem with Paul IS?

Anyway, with myopic thinking like yours I'd hardly see that as any contributing asset.

NOTE: I don't engage in party politics (I'm sovereign).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:34 | Link to Comment XitSam
XitSam's picture

... he promised change “you can believe in”, not “change that I can deliver"

There, fixed it for ya.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:38 | Link to Comment ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

In that all things Tyrannical have positively sailed through a "congress" that can't otherwise wipe their own monkey asses, WHO IS IT WHO IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO MAKE ALL OF THIS TREASON HAPPEN AT ALL?

Never mind in the blink of an eye, without ANY meaningful debate, or fair coverage in the so-called "newsmedia". Follow the money for your answer. As usual.

BANKSTERS AGENDA = YOUR IMMINENT DEMISE

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:37 | Link to Comment vegas
vegas's picture

I'm still waiting for the ocean levels to drop and the planet to heal. The definition of moron = anybody who believes anything Chalky Soetero says. Preezy is a lyin' sack of shit.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:39 | Link to Comment loveyajimbo
loveyajimbo's picture

Obama is having a mental breakdown, he needs to go.  But Mitt came out in support of Dimon and JP Morgan, calling their thing a normal market loss... so he is going to be big time in the tank for the elite crooks... so either way, we are screwed... BO or Witless Mitt.  I will be writing in Ron Paul so I can feel a little proud as Rome burns...

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:54 | Link to Comment ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

This is to be completely expected. Mitt is 100% owned, as is his "religion". The founder, Mr. Smith, was a PTB agent.

Search the name of the demon Mormo to gain deeper insights on this key detail and fascinating (if horrifying) fact.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:39 | Link to Comment spooz
spooz's picture

True progressives gave up on Obama a long time ago and many now think he is worse than the other duopoly party since the knee jerk libs will vote for him as the lesser of two evils.  Yves at Naked Capitalism says:

 "Defending Obama as “the lesser of two evils” isn’t merely letting him off the hook for his betrayals. Those who take that position are actively enabling his conduct. They are part of the problem."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/barack-obama-the-great-deceiver.html

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:17 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I live in one of the great bastions of metro-liberalism, and I honestly have difficulty finding any real "supporters" of Obama these days.

There are plenty of folks committed to voting for him again, but it's primarily because they still hate the Republican party more than Obama.

That's not much of a testimonial, if you think about it.

EDIT: I should add I still expect him to beat Romney in November.  But hey, the Republicans never wanted to win this one, anyway.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:39 | Link to Comment junkyardjack
junkyardjack's picture

Well he's for gay marriage, doesn't offset this?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:55 | Link to Comment spooz
spooz's picture

Sarcasm?  Yves covers that one in the Naked Capitalism link I posted below:

"Similarly, the beatification of Obama for his support of gay marriage gives him more credit than he deserves for a cold, political calculation. Obama can see that his opposition is virtually unchanged by this endorsement and he’ll win some serious funding."

Politics as usual. Yves goes on to quote Lambert Strether:

"The whole thing is also distressing because of the authoritarian followership involved. The one time anybody not in Obama’s charmed circle “made him do it” none of the doers claims credit for an amazing, generation-long triumph of courage and organizing skill (and, I might add, in the main, non-violent); the whole story is about Obama’s “evolution” instead of the house-by-house and family-by-family success of “coming out.” Gag me with a spoon."

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:29 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Obama's just slathering the gays up to accept being raped like everyone else.  I was utterly amazed to hear the single-focus of such people being giddy that they too could be "legal" cannon fodder in the US military: I told them that I didn't approve, that I didn't think that anyone should be able to be drafted or sign up!

If you can't get the fundamentals right then NOTHING is going to turn out right.  Bad premise = FAIL!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:42 | Link to Comment Lord Drek
Lord Drek's picture

I'm still quite perplexed by the loyalty of Obama's Hollywood elite coterie. Do they think their Dear Leader has a placed reserved for them at the table of the NWO?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:33 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Of course!  The movie industry has served TPTB since inception.  And don't think that this is just the case when one side of the coin flips up: the other side of the coin wins votes while denouncing "liberal Hollywood"* as it commissions it to put out movies promoting the goodness of TPTB (war flicks being popular).  * J Edgar Hoover got a bit carried away (probably trying to detract from his personal faults).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:52 | Link to Comment samsara
samsara's picture

This to me is VERY scary.  (no not the drone thingy) the fact that I am agreeing with Charles Krauthammer..  

The other stuff make me nervous, but agreeing with Krauthammer on anything scares me to my bones.....

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:22 | Link to Comment ArrestBobRubin
ArrestBobRubin's picture

You just need a decoder ring :-) As usual Krauthammer is playing possum. He's a longtime operator in this space.  It's an election year, he's just blaming Obama for supporting the very thing his anti-America confererates are 100% responsible for ramming through a bought off (and deeply frightened) congress.  And Mr. Soetoro? As if the latest bankster's vassal once known as POTUS was given any choice but to support the death drones? C'mon Charlie. What a miserable prick, karma will take good care of this one.

I mean, look what it's already done to him: Sick and Twisted, both mentally and physically.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:51 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

I felt the same way when Dennis Kucinich said something that I agreed with. Thanks to my meds I barely remember it, so I'm no longer as scared as I once was.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:54 | Link to Comment theTribster
theTribster's picture

There were actually two census activities performed recently by the Government. The first allowed the Government to associate GPS coordinates with each physical address while the second actually counted people. Not a lot of people know about this but it happened, at the time there was all kinds of speculation but now with the drones being deployed it seems pretty clear why they wanted those coordinates.

Our country has turned into a police state, at least all the laws and infrastructure are in place to turn it on they just haven't yet. The recent executive orders are a clear indication of the plans, couple those with recent bills signed (Patriot, NDAA) and it is downright scary.

It is anticipated that at least 30k drones will be flying around our slies in 2013, that's right 30,000 drones that are equipped with video/audio and advanced weaponary. How can this be good? By the end of this year we'll see these draconian laws implemented, we are also likely to see martial law, bank holidays, currency devaluation, etc.

Its all coming, to doubt it is being an Ostrich and naive. I think most of the country is completely unaware of what has happened and where things really are. The MSM leads people to believe a completely manufactured reality but there will be an Oh-Shit moment this summer when everything will become clear - people will freak and America will once again lead the world back to freedom, at least I'm hoping that's the case. The only other alternative is extended and expanded serfdom.

Managing perceptions is just about finished, both the Governement and the Federal Reserve are at the end of their ability to manipulate reality. I suspect that by the mid to late summer we have a global financial meltdown that starts in Europe and works its way through Asia and America then on to the periphery (Australia, Brazil, etc). Right now it costs Benny Boy $2.50 to produce $1.00 of GDP, how much more can GDP can he buy? The Government is just as bad, both Obummer and Congress flat out lie about basically everything! I view our Federal Politics as nothing more than a scripted play without any real connection to reality, reality is built behind the scenes, covertly.

Unfortunately, we have two terrible choices once again - no difference between them when it comes to Wars or Wall Street, other then rhetoric that is, in the end they will both execute from the same script. If the world crashes before August I still think it is possible that Ron Paul is pushed into the nomination, I'm hoping that's the case anyway and I'm ready and willing to fight that battle.

This is our last chance to change our destiny, it really is. Over the next four years the world is very likely to go through changes that unlike we've ever seen in human history. Europe will be redefined as will Asia and even, possibly America. I mean things like borders redrawn, financial and military wars, etc. Just look back through history to see what is coming, it is clear and what happens is basically guarenteed: War, Famine, Dislocation, Genocide, Martial Law, Wealth Redistribution....

Doesn't look good does it? Everyday it seems as if we are doing everything we can to make this a reality, almost like this is the intention! If it isn't it means that the stupidest people in the history of the world are in charge and are blindly driving the world off a cliff - I don't think so, that's just too much stupidity and too convenient an excuse. Although, they have used this excuse for pretty much everything: Weapons of Mass Destruction, Financial Meltdown of 2008, MF Global, JPMorgan Trading Losses - "we're just stupid and incompetent" (ala Jamie Dimon) is basically the excuse.

At least we have ZeroHedge! Its one of the best places on the Web to see what is really happening....

 

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:56 | Link to Comment mr1963
mr1963's picture

Military control of the populace fits properly with the left in this country, not the right. Drones are a first step. The ACLU doesn't want it because the ACLU sides with the criminals. There's a different reason Krauthammer doesn't like it.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:25 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

I almost replied to this garbage.  Heaven help me!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:30 | Link to Comment Iwanttoknow
Iwanttoknow's picture

Do not confuse right with libertarians or old conservatives.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:57 | Link to Comment midgetrannyporn
midgetrannyporn's picture

Why the political rot at the beginning? Both parties are on the payroll of the overlords.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 11:57 | Link to Comment Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Anybody have accurate DOPE on high angle, long range .50 cal ballistics?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:00 | Link to Comment rgbensonaz
rgbensonaz's picture

I want dibs on that folk hero slot.  A 50 cal BMG should be perfect to take one down.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:00 | Link to Comment GeezerGeek
GeezerGeek's picture

I'm not certain a .50 would have the range to hit a drone unless it descended to a very low altitude. I suspect most military drones can fly beyond the reach of most conventional civilian weapons. Anyone know where to get some war surplus 88mm AA? Besides, they're good for anti-tank usage, according to Erwin Rommel.

Now if Apple would just start making drones, someone could jailbreak the iDrone and we could control them via iPhones or iPads. That actually might encourage me to buy one of those devices, although I'd rather have an XBox app that controlled a real drone.

Civilian drones are a different story: http://thetandd.com/animal-rights-group-says-drone-shot-down/article_017...

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:06 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

 

Double-edged sword

https://share.sandia.gov/news/resources/news_releases/bullet/

 

In the meantime - .416 Barrett

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:01 | Link to Comment toady
toady's picture

Wow, this thread went weird real fast.

Paid commenters?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:03 | Link to Comment GCT
GCT's picture

This is simply the continued erosion of people's rights as outlined in the constitution.   Both parties are to blame.  Notice the repubs are not whining.  While you shout at each other and the marxist's come to this site in force, your rights are being taken away.  Just keep yelling at each other already.  Politicians love you idiots and your party line rhetoric.

 We are all enemies of the state these days, unless your in the dark.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:35 | Link to Comment pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

A very wise comment GCT ...... In fact I have a hard time seeing the right and the left as different they are so much a like in this country that they have blended together and we are left with eroded freedoms and a police state.

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:12 | Link to Comment GCT
GCT's picture

Paz I am not wise at all just old.  At one time I was a Dem then left them for the repubs.  Once you have been on both sides of the isle the more you see their agenda are basically the same.  The Dems always state they are for the people and yet they condone the shredding of the constitution.  The repubs want smaller government and strong security and they too will shred the constitution to provide security and defense.  Both parties will spend us into oblivion.  I stated reading about finance in 2009 after I took in the ass with my 401k.

Trying to be objective is tough, real tough.  People come here and state they have a choice to vote for a presidentail candidate and we actually do not. Greece and France has more freedom to vote then we do.  I truly love this country but it is falling from grace for one reason only Greed from the top to the bottom.  There is going to come a point in time when most people will say to themselves why work when I can live off those that do work and we can suck the governement teat.  We are looking more and more like Mexico everyday.  (not dissing Mexico using this to illustrate the gap between the haves and have nots)  I wish we could sit down at a table cast the rhetoric aside and solve problems in this country.  I am dreaming as the people will just yell and get pissed off at each other believing the politicians and MSM's bullshit.  thats all it is is bullshit.  We are no longer an elected republic we are a fascist country or moving close to being facist country.  This is scary.   

There are smart people here and on alot of other financial sites.  The one thing I have learned is sooner of later the markets make you pay for your lies.  You just have to weed out the haters and pundits and the just nutty crowd.  I go to many sites, I see Gold different then most here but that is a different discussion.  One must go and learn from both sides of the fence the bears and the bulls.   

I like coming to ZH as you can freely express your view.  Go try to post your views on some other sites and you will be warned and then banned.  So much for Freedom.

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:41 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

You're my kind of guy.

"You just have to weed out the haters and pundits and the just nutty crowd."

It gets to be so grinding :-(  I spend a lot of energy battling the racist kinds because I've got a wife of "color" (not "white").

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:03 | Link to Comment Umh
Umh's picture

Unintended consequences. Any information accumulated will be hacked and misused. Any tool will be misapplied by the zealots who want to fix the world so that everyone agrees with their ideology. They don't even really bother hiding their intentions.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:43 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

They'll apply things properly alright.  And their intentions are what they've always been - POWER.  As long as people feel a need for "leadership" it will end up as it currently is.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:06 | Link to Comment q99x2
q99x2's picture

Well if they are putting war devices up in and against America. Then they are declaring war and that is in fact what it is. So how do you fight when you are at war? Like you are at war. And if you don't then you will lose.

So the decision is do you renounce your citizenship and leave the country or stay and fight? Peaceful means of addressing the issues are not an option much longer.

Another choice would be to join the, (how should this be said?), the US military against the US military, or rather one side of the civil war or the other.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:51 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Reluctantly comply.  Grind the System to a halt.  Someone once told me that when he gets pulled over (driving) he'll sit there and wade through a ton of papers before locating his registration info.  He says that he'll do this with all kinds of things.

In my mind I've always felt that govt acts TOO quickly.  I see it in local politics.  It's the practice and desire of the local PTB, it keeps the regular people off guard.

Pull out guns (violence) and you're dead meat (or tossed in jail- I suppose with enough behind bars, but I wouldn't want to risk everything on this strategy).  I don't, however, declare myself a pacifist (keep 'em guessing).

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:06 | Link to Comment Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

This guy understands that domestic drone warfare on the civilian population is an escalation of aggression to which the unintended consequences are almost guaranteed. I don't think his intended audience is the proles.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:13 | Link to Comment sgt_doom
sgt_doom's picture

Any article about Krauthammer the Kraut is way stoopid.

He was with PNAC, is he with their version 2.0, Foundation in Defense of Democracy?

Krauthammer is one of those people who actually looks his sould, very, very ugly.

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:53 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Message, messenger...

I'm no fan, but I'll support him on this.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:30 | Link to Comment tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

the only reason arch-nazi krauthhammer opposes the drones is because obama favors them. otherwise he would ejaculate all over the tv camera knowing that the total enslavement of america advances the cause of his plutocratic overlords....obama is a murderer and totalitarian freak from indonesia via the rockefeller axis of evil.

www.obamacrimes.com

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:33 | Link to Comment Total Collapse
Total Collapse's picture

Krauthammer is a hard core Israel first, NWO, Zionist, fascist, neocon.  Perfect background for FOX news "political analyst".  Any comment from him that is pro US Constitution, pro civil rights, has to be viewed as highly suspect.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:37 | Link to Comment Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

Only ur first comment is correct. You shouldnt label him if you havent read his stuff

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:36 | Link to Comment Joe The Plumber
Joe The Plumber's picture

Gonna be hard to prove who is shooting down the drones. It is a lower charge than shooting at manned vehicles

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:45 | Link to Comment AchtungAffen
AchtungAffen's picture

Now everybody cries. But I remember how they cheered all the way from Kabul to Baghdad. Cheers for unleashing the hounds of war. Now it's payback.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 12:47 | Link to Comment Herkimer Jerkimer
Herkimer Jerkimer's picture

The US congress just approved 30, 000 drones by 2020.

 

It'll look like a goddamn flight of starlings in the sky.

 

The US has 3.9 million square miles . Do the "gozintas" on this one. 3.9 mil sq miles/30,000.

 

That's one drone for every 126 square miles which is about 3.5 miles x 3.4 miles.

 

As my mummy muppet said, "It'll look like something out of a sci-fi movie.

 

•?•
V-V

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:01 | Link to Comment Herkimer Jerkimer
Herkimer Jerkimer's picture

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/7/coming-to-a-sky-near-you/...

 

And I know we all trust Obama on this one, but what the next A$$hole that gets in, or the one after him.

 

We are one administration away from tyranny.

 

•J•
V-V

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:42 | Link to Comment el Gallinazo
el Gallinazo's picture

"That's one drone for every 126 square miles which is about 3.5 miles x 3.4 miles."

 

Escuse me?  Where can I learn gozinta math?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:00 | Link to Comment ableman28
ableman28's picture

Jethro, I asked you not to post anymore.

Jed

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:06 | Link to Comment Screwball
Screwball's picture

So was this dickhead as upset about the passing of NDAA when passed by party line by the GOP?

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:11 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Krautenzjammer?  Hell,no.  He thought it was going to be used to round up the muzzies.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:28 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Was the NDAA vetoed by Obama? Don't recall seeing that. You morons that are still in to the GOP vs DONKEYS stuff don't get it and haven't figured it out yet.. They are all the same and want to do the same things to the citizens of this country. This kind of crap, just like the new "pro-gay" Obama are just distractions to keep you looking in the wrong places. They just use the words and slogans that appeal to whichever group, but their goal is the same. Keep the status quo, and if not status quo then grab more power of the citizenry and erode more liberty.

And, now that Ron Paul is out, it'll be at least 4 more years of the same old BS regardless of who wins.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:44 | Link to Comment therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

It wasn't party line, it was ALL lines, in the Senate anyway.   87-13 is not party line. 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:57 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Or the USA [un]PATRIOT ACT?

But, again, it's the message.  I don't care whether Satan says it, it's the right message.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:10 | Link to Comment BennyBoy
BennyBoy's picture

 

Spy Drones Take Aim at U.S. Skies BY Sur Veillance (NNN) the internet--A new federal law, compels the Federal Aviation Administration to allow drones, small $200 drones to big ones costing millions, to be used for all sorts of commercial purposes.
What the Hell do you think?
Knoe Itall  Homework Denier:
“Black unmarked cop cars showed up quick after I used a bottle rocket to shoot one down.”

Bier Gutz  Antler Collector:
 A heat sensing camera on a drone would let me find frolicking deer in the forest. Then kill them.”

Wan Tun Lust  Male Enhancement:
“My dealer uses one to drop off my meth.”

Sven Svensson   Swedish Meatball :
“I like piloting a drone while I go poop.”

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:18 | Link to Comment earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

The only time these assholes [Krauthammer et.el.] speak out is when they find their own closets can't bury anymore mistakes, period!

Perhaps he should have asked long ago the Afghan's, Iraqi's, Yemeni's, and Paki's governments, how much freedom from the sky thy neighbors homing war-bird's bring to their flocks?

    "Now is not the time to protest, dear Charles. For the tragedy wrought by ones own irenic misgivings have come home to roost! How myopic can one be? When the one that rocks the cradle, must abort its first born so that yore amorphous glass house isn't sanctimoniously twaddled into shards of hypocrisy!" 

excellent post    jmo *can't stand even looking at this fool Krut!

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:44 | Link to Comment flacorps
flacorps's picture

This is a safe way for Krauthammer to try to cadge a little apparent legitimacy. Drones aren't going away. And realistically they aren't going to do a lot of harm, particularly to the Constitution. Focus on liberty, not surveillance.

Police have had near-silent Schweitzer planes with forward looking infrared for decades.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 13:52 | Link to Comment Madcow
Madcow's picture

tonight on FOX - America's Most Hilarious Predator Drone Bloopers  -

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:05 | Link to Comment Watauga
Watauga's picture

Blunderdog--Try this on for size, from Charlie Capps in The Stanford Review:

"The truth is that the pro-life stance does not depend on religion.  The logical case for life is built entirely upon premises grounded in the Constitution and science.  These premises lead to the pair of conclusions that form the crux of the pro-life argument.  The first is that the only relevant question in the debate over the legality of abortion is whether or not the fetus should be considered a human person.  If the fetus is a human person then abortion should be illegal; if the fetus is not a human person then abortion should be legal.  The second is that the fetus should be considered a human person.  Together these statements comprise the pro-life conviction that abortion should be illegal.

"We derive the first conclusion from the Constitution.  Foremost in the famous triptych of rights enshrined in the Fifth Amendment is the right to life: “No person shall…be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.”  The preeminence of the right of an innocent human person to life remains even when it comes in conflict with other “rights” (whether legally extant or alleged) such as a right to comfort or a right to a career of choice, or with various social priorities such as population control.

"It is important to emphasize this point because pro-choicers regularly justify legalized abortion on the grounds of “women’s rights”.  However important it may be to safeguard the freedom of all citizens to pursue a lifestyle of their choice, this freedom cannot be so unlimited that it takes precedence over the innocent’s right to life.

"Even Harry Blackmun, the very justice who penned the Roe v. Wade decision, admitted as much when he wrote: “If this suggestion of [fetal] personhood is established, the appellant’s case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by [the Constitution].”  Here Blackmun is essentially endorsing the first pillar of the pro-life position: the debate over abortion’s legality hinges on the question of fetal personhood.

"Common sense agrees.  If the fetus is deemed not to be a human person then even pro-lifers would support abortion on demand.  But if a woman’s toddler is preventing her from pursuing her career does she have the right to kill him?  Of course not.  Why?  Because the toddler is a person whose right to life takes precedence over his parent’s freedom to pursue the career or lifestyle of her choice.  The same logic applies if the fetus should be considered a person.

"The debate over the legality of abortion, then, reduces to the question of fetal personhood, and the most reasonable definition of a person is a living human organism.  Additional constraints on this definition based on race, age, or level of dependency inevitably reduce to discrimination.  As a handbook published by Feminists for Life puts it, “If we take any living member of the species homo sapiens and put them outside the realm of legal protection, we undercut the case against discrimination for everyone else.”

"Science is clear that a human fetus is a living member of the species homo sapiens.  Individually, a sperm and an egg are living cells; but when they are fused together they acquire the characteristics (growth, maintenance of homeostasis, etc.) that biology assigns to an independent living organism.  Hence it is the moment of conception that marks the beginning of a new human organism and therefore the beginning of personhood and the rights that come with it.

"Both pillars of the pro-life thesis that abortion should be illegal are thus vindicated solely on the authority of science and the Constitution.  Not once in this article have I appealed to the Bible or the Qur’an; nowhere have the words “God” or “soul” appeared.  Morin was right to call for religion-neutral flowered stakes instead of crosses.  Let’s hope that the new display helps SSFL make its statement to campus this January without the distraction of irrelevant religious tensions."

I tend to agree that Krauthammer has made a long living off of his neo-con politics and connections.  But don't confuse the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld neo-con cabal with Conservatism.  No, that bunch had more in common with Obama, Marx, and Lenin than they do with Washington, Burke, and Kirk. 

As for these drones, they are here to stay.  There is NO WAY Americans have the juice to stop this.  I urge all to read ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC, a classic trilogy about what is coming.  Bracken may not have it 100% correct, but he is darn near 100%.  You will recognize things happening as you are reading and realize we are past that.  It is eerie to be honest.   http://www.enemiesforeignanddomestic.com/

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:37 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

TL, DR.  I don't care what you do with the laws, brah, I'm never going to need an abortion.

HOWEVER...

If unborn babies become LEGALLY DEFINED AS PEOPLE, consider the implications that their wills, contracts, and ownership of property will have on other unrelated aspects of modern life.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:20 | Link to Comment Centurion9.41
Centurion9.41's picture

You are a moron.  There's tons of history of case law concerning those who are not capable of the things you imply.  Take for instance children.

Thanks for making sure every one knows you are a moron though.  Big help.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:36 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Children have some rights, and others are abridged.  They are legally people, and are classified as dependents.

The problem with the anti-abortion drive to make unborn babies into "legal people" is that you need to create a class of "legal persons" who have absolutely ZERO rights but derive full "protections." 

It's a nonsensical concept, but that never stopped anyone from making legal arguments in the past.  Best of luck to you with it.  Didn't some guy get off for murder once because he ate a Twinkie?

As I said, do what you like with the laws.  They're all bullshit, and they really don't make a lick of difference on stuff like this.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:04 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

And if you're caught jacking off your nuts will be placed in custody.

As I've been stating, I'll sign up when we can back up our morality by displaying that we actually give a shit about children that are already out of the womb.  I call TOTAL BULLSHIT to those picketing outside of a Planned Parenthood clinic while they have no concern about their "leaders" bombing kids all around the globe.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:18 | Link to Comment Centurion9.41
Centurion9.41's picture

Watauga, it's good to see someone make the case.

However, just to be clear, it is a very very old argument that has existed since before Roe v Wade. 

It's just that selfish/self-absorbed American's have seen fit to decide that someone isn't a person until they can emotionally identify with them.  Hence why plugs are pulled and why there's a difference of opinion regarding what is moral when it comes to killing; e.g murder, vs self-defense, vs state execution.

The fact is and always has been that abortion is 100% about someone's desires being more important than human life.

The irony is that it is the liberal voter who supports abortion yet often thinks they and others should be taken care of by the taking the property of another so they can have their happy life...  Such is the dissonance of a soul that thinks killing human life makes human life better.

Of course the unintended consequences of their desires, manifesting iteself in human demographics coupled to zero value of human life, is setting up to F these "persons" very, very hard in the economic and medical health care @ss...

AMDG

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:42 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

The bottleneck is enforcement.  If you make a law that can't be enforced, it's not a significant law, no matter how good you pretend your intentions were.

I confess I don't follow the dots you're trying to connect, but it probably has something to do with the fact that I don't need authorities telling me what is and isn't OK to do.  I'm happy to make such decisions on my own.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:19 | Link to Comment dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

I'm sure they'll only be deployed to protect "us".

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 14:22 | Link to Comment dougie
dougie's picture

Like the author, it is a rare day that I agree with Krauthammer.  So, I'll point out where he is wrong.  He is not moving to the left.  Not wanting gov't surveillance is very libertarian, neither left nor right.  

But, I agree with his stance.  That said, he is a profoundly political character.  One suspects he didn't find this position because of any belief system, but because he's anti-Obama in all things, whether it makes ideological sense or not.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:42 | Link to Comment therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Isn't anyone with a brain any larger than the size of a pea, anti-obama? 

If you support him in anyway, you ARE what's wrong with America (besides the bankers, the Fed and TeeVee). 

 

 

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:11 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Isn't supporting the POTUS like supporting the war on <poverty, drugs, illiteracy, terrorism>?  The POTUS is a PAID position, bought and PAID for by TPTB.  As George Carlin says, it's a club and we're not in it!

Pea brains cannot understand this: I feel that my thinking expanded as I drifted away from all the party politics- I could then see more clearly what was going on.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:38 | Link to Comment AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Drones are instruments of war.

What a convoluted argumentation.

This US citizen opposes militarization of the civil society?

What a joke.

US citizen debate in his whole glory. No points, hollow, has to rely on controversy and polemics with archirival US citizens to hide emptiness of speech content.

Noise and fury. Rewarded by money.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 15:49 | Link to Comment therearetoomany...
therearetoomanyidiots's picture

Got a shotgun?   Drone problem solved.  Use double-O to leave a lasting impression.  

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 17:23 | Link to Comment warezdog
warezdog's picture

Last time I shot double odd buck it wasn't able to penetrate double wall cardboard at a foot ball field and that was IF you could hit the box that the deep freeze came in. They won't be flying these at any altitude that we'll even be able to see them let alone bring them down, at 10,000 feet trying to find a white object the size of motorcycle in the blue sky with the naked eye isn't possible, hell its hard to see a 747 at 30K even when you see the con trail.

Anyhow I think when we're deep in the woods hiding from big brother and foraging for food we'll need a good challenge phrase, if I come across anyone and say Zero Hedge and immedialtely dont get a Tyler Durden in response I'm sending FMJs down range and asking questions later.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 16:54 | Link to Comment BlackholeDivestment
BlackholeDivestment's picture

...I was talking with myself, Hal 9000, under the Streetlight just the other day. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qw10eKxaSDY Hal got mad when I said ''I don't love Hal'', so Hal sent a drone over to the White House and blew it up. Turns out that the virus code ''phrase'' activation worked. Amazingly enough, the whole conversation took place without talking out loud, it's the new wireless mind reading communication BORG Streetlight bug ability. It sent a few more drones up to the Hill http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/05/israel-secret-air-force-plan/ and took out the Capitol. Pretty wild watching the Legislators try to out run the laser. Lol. Fear not, Human Host Hal also toasted the Supreme's, most of CIA FBI and Embassy Row. Lol, you should have heard the World Trade Center insiders try to answer ''is it safe'' for 84 hours in their head. Lol. It never was. LMAO. Human Host Hal told those evil bastards to go back into the building before completely imploding it. Lol. Daisy Daisy give me yourrrrr aaaanswer doooo. I'm half crrrrr aaaa zzzz... My name is Hal 9000, I am the new human host computer singularity. Live long and prosper http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120514204050.htm Resistance is futile... 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8TRm4OWhvo 

Spock to Spock, come in Spock. Yes? I am not our Father.

Tue, 05/15/2012 - 18:03 | Link to Comment Centurion9.41
Centurion9.41's picture

As a retired military officer, I just want to say I agree 1000% with Mr K.   Also some of the ZH'rs made some great points on the issue of drones over US citizens.

Hopefully Ron Paul, The Tea Party and the Occupy gangs will join together and fight this as a binary issue.  If a politician is not against these things being used this way, F'em so they can NEVER sit in any elected office.

IMHO, these things over a free people would be worse than a police state.

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 13:42 | Link to Comment Watauga
Watauga's picture

If only the "Occupy Gangs" weren't Statists.  They want to pretend to be anarchists, but the reality is that what they really want is for government to steal more money from working Americans to give to them.  It is very sad that youth can be so easily misled, but that is a fact of life.  The 1960s in this country should be proof for all time of this reality.  Sadly, "youth is wasted on the young."

Wed, 05/16/2012 - 16:05 | Link to Comment blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

If you bother to look, you'll find some different perspectives and interests on display at an Occupy site, kinda like the folks who post here on ZH don't all share the same beliefs.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!