Guest Post: The Economic Abuse Of Veterans In America

Tyler Durden's picture

Submitted by Brandon Smith from Alt-Market

The Economic Abuse Of Veterans In America

Volunteering to join the military has always been a process rife with internal and external conflictions.  A vital aspect of one’s ultimate decision to do so often depends greatly upon the era in which one becomes eligible.  U.S. citizens leaped at the chance to defend their country at the onset of World War II because the enemies were indeed a legitimate and obvious threat to the freedom and sovereignty of all nations.  During Vietnam, the waters were muddied (at least in the view of millions of citizens), and many Americans did not see the fight as their own.  The line between our system, and the enemies we were supposed to despise, had become progressively more foggy and disjointed.  For any wise and honorable man to go out of his way to risk his life, the fight must be clearly just, otherwise, he may feel that his death will serve no purpose.

No matter what era of war an American soldier happens to take part in, his desire is usually simple and honest; most seek to defend the underlying principles of freedom which have guided the soul of this country for generations.  They seek a righteous cause, and transparent leadership.

Unfortunately, for decades, sincere leadership by our government, from Washington D.C. down to the good-old-boy networks of county politics, has all but been erased.  Not even a trace of truth permeates the bedrock of our legal or bureaucratic structure anymore.  The system has become so corrupt, so leprous and putrid, that it now actually influences originally honorable men and women to do great evil just to survive and to thrive.  Our administrative structure encourages and even breeds thieves, murderers, and tyrants.  It is a self-perpetuating monster machine. 

U.S. soldiers are in a unique position in the middle of this plague of political power gaming.  They are usually the first to bear witness to the blunders (or crimes) of government.  They get to experience up close on the ground where decisions go wrong and how.  They are among the first to witness the changes of mood within our political dynamic, and the first to know when a government has gone rogue.  When these soldiers leave the service as veterans, many have seen the ugliest of the ugly faces of the officialdom running the show.  They become a liability to the carefully crafted image of the U.S. government and the military industrial complex because they know the ultimate truth.

The mistreatment of veterans is often examined with shock and dismay, primarily because the general public cannot fathom why federal, state, and local governments would work against men and women who once served their interests.  However, when one understands that the establishment system views veterans as a political and social threat, a cultural base that is respected by average citizens and carries weight when exposing corruption, the abusive actions of the oligarchy make perfect sense.

I could delve into the disparaging world of Veterans Hospitals and the horror stories surrounding the dime-store-style socialized medical care that men and women receive there (I could also point out that this is a perfect active example of what medical treatment would be like under Obamacare).  I could write for hours about soldiers exposed to chemical and biological warfare from Vietnam to the Gulf War; soldiers who went on to suffer recurring health problems, and who were quickly swept under the rug by Washington.  I could even outline the numerous instances in which the DHS, the Bush Administration, and the Obama Administration, have all attempted to categorize veterans as “possible terrorists” who present a danger to national security:

While it is absolutely imperative that veterans and current serving military alike research every aspect of these issues, I would like for a moment to focus on a far less discussed crisis that looms over former military; financial subversion.

Today, most people are suffering an economic loss of one kind or another, and the knee-jerk response by those in financial dire straights might be to question why they should care at all about veterans being squeezed by the system.  I would point out that while the credit crisis is certain to strike the vast majority of average Americans, it has crashed like a ten-ton sack of bricks upon the heads of veterans in particular.

While the U.S. Interagency Council On Homelessness did launch a program called “Opening Doors” in an effort to reduce veteran homelessness, claiming a 12% reduction in 2011, the official number of homeless former serving still stands at 67,000.  This, unfortunately, is a misleading stat, and only counts veterans who have are considered “consistently without shelter”.  In reality, it is estimated that 200,000 or more veterans are homeless on any given night:

That is large population of people under consistent poverty (23% of overall homeless by some measures), and this is not even counting those veterans that just scrape by.  Approximately 40% of these homeless veterans suffer from war related psychological disorders, including Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, and are not responsible for the difficulties they face in the job market.

The unemployment rate for veterans continues to be epidemic, with official numbers between 8% and 9% (and we all know how the Labor Department undercuts real unemployment statistics).  For younger veterans, especially those involved in Gulf War II, unemployment has skyrocketed to 30%:

One would think that a military background with years of training and command experience in the midst of the most chaotic environments the world has to offer would translate well in the business and working world, but the numbers say otherwise.

Government programs to aid veterans are tossed to the public every year like trick-or-treat candy, but in most cases, they are only a half-hearted attempt to pay lip service to the problem, falsely reassure Americans, and place a band-aid on the gaping wound.  This has become painfully apparent after the 2008 derivatives bubble implosion, which has now triggered the bankruptcy foreclosures of over ONE THIRD of all veteran households:

A homeowner’s mortgage assistance program under the U.S. government does exist, but only covers active duty military.  Veterans are forgotten.

The most active banks foreclosing on veterans include JP Morgan, Bank Of America, Wells Fargo, and PNC.  All of these institutions have been cited for using illegal and hidden fees to increase mortgage liability.  This tactic has been specifically and violently applied to veterans in particular, and over 30,000 cases of possible banking fraud against veterans were exposed in 2011 alone:

Why would banks place such priority on aiming their crosshairs at veterans?  There are a multitude of reasons.  Most veterans have made a career out of following a chain of command and paying heed to authority figures.  Often, this mindset is carried over into the civilian world, where new authority figures like lawyers, judges, bailiffs, even bank representatives, are given far too much credence and are approached with a subservient attitude.  Many veterans also spend so much time within the unique legal structure of the military system that they lose familiarity with civil law, and become frustrated with its operations and complexities.  Some find it impossible to adapt.  To put it bluntly, corporate banks see veterans as easy targets.

To make matters much worse, local bureaucracies have been more than happy to aid major banks in their criminal enterprises, and veterans have been principle victims.  Instead of providing relief and aid to those in financial distress as was originally intended when the bankruptcy court apparatus was created, it has now become a network of parasites honing in on the fiscally weak and using their despair and confusion to rob them of every last possession. 

I have WITNESSED this first hand while examining the case of Warren Bodecker, a Montana local and WWII hero who helped to liberate over 2000 prisoners near execution from the Los Banos prison camp in the Philippines. 

Bodeker’s 89 years of life have been filled with amazing accomplishments and a certain level of success.  It is saddening that in his old age, during days in which he should be allowed some measure of peace, he has come under attack by so many despicable circumstances and people.

Warren’s wife, after battling cancer for a decade, had finally passed.  Her body was put to rest on the family farm, but her medical bills were not.  With debt and interest payments mounting, and Warren living essentially alone, the stress and fear of insolvency ruled his waking moments.  He then made a terrible error; he trusted his fate and his home to the bankruptcy system.  Warren’s story in his own words can be found in the video interview below, conducted by the founder of Oath Keepers and Constitutional Lawyer Stewart Rhodes:


I analyze and write about legal corruption on a regular basis.  I have uncovered and outlined banking criminality for years.  But, to watch this tyranny wrought upon an individual right in front of me, a man I know to be good hearted, a person who absolutely does not deserve it, is difficult to endure.

What I found most disturbing in this case was the number of deviants who came out of the woodwork to claim their pound of flesh.  The Trustee, Christy Brandon, has gone out of her way to intimidate Warren, which puzzled me until I learned that she had also appointed HERSELF lawyer for the estate.  If proceedings became “adversarial”, under the law, she would be conveniently awarded a percentage of the bankruptcy loot.  Warren’s former son-in-law (whose motivations remain mysterious and suspicious) wrote secret letters to the courts accusing him of deliberately hiding gold and silver assets.  Warren’s own lawyer advised him little, and in some cases very poorly, pushing him to wave his homestead exemption and feeding Warren to the wolves as it were while he quietly collected his salary. 

The vet was surrounded by frenzied piranha.  With little understanding of bankruptcy law or what was expected of him, he didn’t have a chance.  The system, his lawyer, and the Trustee all asserted the same lie; that if he just quietly rolled over, all would be well.  He has now lost everything, including his home.  He will be forced to exhume his wife’s body from the land he also planned to rest on, with no conceivable future beyond homelessness and regret.  

The system not only failed Warren, it hunted him down and mauled him.  At every level, the legal structure sought to harm him, not protect him, or to conduct fair justice.  It became clear to me after speaking with Warren, even more so than before, that there is no recourse through the legal realm.  It is utterly broken, and beyond all possible repair.  If a veteran and WWII combat hero can be treated so egregiously, what possible chance do the rest of us have?

Warren is just one example of a detrimental and sometimes organized crippling of veterans and their economic safety across America.  Sometimes it is done out of mere greed, sometimes it is done out of idiocy, sometimes it is done with downright malicious intent, and sometimes it's a combination of all three.  In light of this, and as Warren Bodeker's situation proves, there are no solutions within the bounds of the establishment anymore.  The problem, then, goes to those of us who are aware, and to those who also share a military background.  It is up to the Liberty Movement to rally around veterans, and for veterans to rally around each other.  The enemies they face today are much more insidious than any they ever faced on the battlefields of the past.  There will be no relief or comfort unless we support each other.

If you would like to make a donation to the Warren Bodecker Fund, please visit the link below and scroll to the paypal button at the bottom of the article:

If you would like to question Christy Brandon, Trustee for this case, on her side of the story, or if you wish to ask her why she is handling the situation in such a manner, you can use the contact information she provided on her publicly released court documentation (please remain courteous):

Attorney Christy Brandon
Brandon Law Firm, PLLC
P.O. Box 1544
Bigfork, MT 59911
Phone: (406) 837-5445
Fax: (406) 837-5420

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Comay Mierda's picture

God bless our troops

and fuck the politicians who take advantage of them

SilverTree's picture


WWII Vet Has Home Taken Away!!


Warren C. Bodeker is an 89 year old World War II Army Airborne combat veteran and war hero, living in Montana, who is being thrown off of his own land and thrown out of his own house, by Montana Federal Bankruptcy Trustee, Christy Brandon, with the approval of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Montana. And to make matters worse, Warren's wife Lorna just died of cancer this past year, and is buried there on their land, right next to the house. Warren had planned to live there till he died and then be buried right next to his wife, there on their property at 11 Freedom Lane, in the town of Plains, Montana, but now, not only is he being forced off his land, he is being forced to exhume his wife's body and take her with him.

This is the most disgusting, callous, brutal, and unjust treatment of a WWII veteran by the "justice" system we have ever heard of. Here is a man who stepped up and went to war at the age of 19 to fight against the Japanese in the Pacific. When we say he is a war hero, we are not exaggerating. Serving in Co. B, 511th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 11th Airborne Division (see discharge papers below), Warren earned two bronze starts while making three combat jumps in the Philippine Islands in 1945.

emersonreturn's picture

at the end of WW2 veterans were given the opportunity for education grants and/or land grants...why not now?  with so many homes underwater, and thereby under govt care (costing millions to simply keep them in good repair) why not grant them to veterans?  

SilverTree's picture

Veterans (I am one) are purposely kept down and displaced. Also kept over seas fighting, they wouldn't want all those fighters back in the states would they?

JailBank's picture

"The only way to smash this racket is to conscript capital and industry and labour before the nation's manhood can be conscripted. … Let the officers and the directors and the high-powered executives of our armament factories and our steel companies and our munitions makers and our ship-builders and our airplane builders and the manufacturers of all other things that provide profit in war time as well as the bankers and the speculators, be conscripted — to get $30 a month, the same wage as the lads in the trenches get"


- Gen Smedley Butler


Served nine years on four continents. Let those that are so eager for war be the first to go. Yeah I am looking directly at you Krugman. You want another good war to get the economy going? Let's get you and your family right up front then.

kridkrid's picture

Another Butler quote just below.  Nice post!

Winston Smith 2009's picture

About Gen. Smedley Butler:

"He is one of 19 men to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only man to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions."

From his "War is a Racket":

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq

All the Shah's Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror

El Viejo's picture

All vets have sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC.

(4 yrs three continents)


Jethro's picture

I still hold my oath as sacred and permanently binding. Former USMC 0351 (Antitank Assaultman) and Embassy Guard.

Treeplanter's picture

Gaius Marius, great Roman general, Julius Caesar's uncle by marriage, reorganized  the army into a professional killing machine that routed great hordes of invading Germans and expanded Roman power.  Volunteers were lifers who got tracts of land in the provinces on retirement.  Veterans have to be treated right if we are to attract good peuple into the ranks.  Since the currebt goverment hasn't even passed a budget in three years, it's time to throw the bums out.

Benjamin Glutton's picture

Build them a new one and gift. agreed.


Engineer a housing collapse, seize homes and give to Vets. not good.


A vet with a deep history of combat Vets in family.


On a more personal note. My father's life was shattered by his combat experience. As a child I would awaken to terrifying commotion and screams that I thought were physical fights between my parents. Never was there a mark on my mother. This went on for years until one day I was old enough for a suitable explanation. Though it made no sense at the time, in war movies combat looked awesome, my father was haunted. Eventually I reasoned, after much discussion and reflection, that this kind Marine simply wanted to return to the jungle and claim the honorable death he believed he had earned.

What terrible leaders we have.

Harlequin001's picture

'No matter what era of war an American soldier happens to take part in, his desire is usually simple and honest; most seek to defend the underlying principles of freedom which have guided the soul of this country for generations.  They seek a righteous cause, and transparent leadership.'

They seek payment.

Let's at least try and be honest about something. You can't whine about deficits and then complain about government employees being thrown out onto the streets.

Janice's picture

9 years, honorable discharge.

Many of the youths enlisting today are intercity gang member looking for military training. Also, the immigrants looking for US citizenship. A few are misguided about the "glory" of serving. Many are lower IQ. It's sad when you find out who is there and why.

I joined because if I had not, I would have been my family's first nonmilitary generation since the Civil War. I have told my children, it's not a family tradition worth upholding. When we actually fight to secure our land, as opposed to securing oil, my family will be on the front lines again.

Harlequin001's picture

'When we actually fight to secure our land, as opposed to securing oil, my family will be on the front lines again.' I can agree with that...

GMadScientist's picture

I'm sure the kids drafted into WWII and Vietnam were really "in it for the money", twit.

A good portion end up in the service as an alternative to jailtime or deportation.

Harlequin001's picture

And a good many young boys grew up far too early flying bombers over enemy turf before being gunned down by their own side and branded a 'coward' for demonstrating their 'lack of moral fibre' when the nervous breakdown ensued.

Grow up. They did it because they were told to. Save your pious sentiments for someone stupid enough to believe it.

Like most others, they did it because they were told to, because they didn't have the intelligence to work it out, the spinal fortitude to say no, and because they needed the money.

Next thing you'll be telling me is that you think you're free, and they fought for that...

boiltherich's picture

An unjust social order of gross inequality means there are economic victims that will of course seek out employment or educational opportunities where those can be found, but they trade years of their lives and the possibility of their gruesome death to you in exchange, and that does not mean it is their sole motivation or that they their motives should be suspect, I needed a job at seventeen and went into the military because the future in the mid seventies was bleak without college and the GI Bill was my best option, but that did not mean my service was motivated by greed or self interest, it was my way of giving to a nation I really loved, just as educating myself and finding a way to become a productive member of society was not about being able to buy a fast car or big house, it was about doing my part. If I am a better person then my nation and my people are better too. I always thought of America as my extended family, sure with a few drunks and some really eccentric cases, a couple of crabby uncles, a group of paranoid dipshits, and a lot of kids who were terminally immature, but my family all the same. All people have some level of self interest and survival instincts, that does not make all the things we do as people greedy or opportunistic or mercenary. If you think like that then I feel very sorry for you because you either hate your own "greedy" impulses and are unhappy or you believe yourself to be free of them while others are not, that is an I'm OK you're not OK situation according to transactional analysis,

I'm OK - You're not OK

People in this position feel themselves superior in some way to others, who are seen as inferior and not OK. As a result, they may be contemptuous and quick to anger. Their talk about others will be smug and supercilious, contrasting their own relative perfection with the limitation of others.


Not a lot of fun at a picnic.

Harlequin001's picture

'I needed a job at seventeen and went into the military because the future in the mid seventies was bleak without college and the GI Bill was my best option,' well at least you're honest about it, in part anyway...

Not sure what you're trying to imply with the rest of it though, anyone who doesn't think the sun shines out of the military arse is a party pooper?

Nah, that's bollocks...

boiltherich's picture

What I said was... I hope I can keep this really simple for you... is that just because people have needs does not make all of their actions selfish. 

Just because we have to survive does not mean everything we do is motivated by greed.

The military is a part of the world, part of life, your dislike for it and the people who serve has zero bearing on it's reality.  You think you do not benefit from it and because you are free you have the right to hold wrong opinions, but you also think you should not have to pay for something just because you are right and everyone else is wrong.  Then you get cute and start mouthing off dirty things over the internet and that is such a credit to your mother's training and upbringing for you, but you totally miss the irony that you can do these things BECAUSE you are free and that freedom was paid for whether you approve or not by the blood of others. 

About half the posters here are decent people who can appreciate the sacrifice even when they do not approve of the political structures that made them inevitable, the other half of you can just go fuck yourselves, you need help for your deep seated hatreds and internal insecurities. 

AnAnonymous's picture

Then you get cute and start mouthing off dirty things over the internet and that is such a credit to your mother's training and upbringing for you, but you totally miss the irony that you can do these things BECAUSE you are free and that freedom was paid for whether you approve or not by the blood of others.


Absolutely. Without the proper service of the military, the somalian pirates would take over, invade the US and prevent anyone from wording their mind.

It is just the way it is. In US citizen world.

Exercize of military power has little to do with being able to word one's mind.

It has to do with the threat wording one's mind causes to the power apparatus.

Venting on the internet is similar to speaking in the desert. It is no threat to the power in position.

Useless to try to make that fact one of your own achievement.

boiltherich's picture



Read the above, see?  Any retard is free to expose their lack of humanity and respect for others on the net because of those who did serve. 

Harlequin001's picture

You imply that because you did serve that you are a good man, and therefore beyond reproach and are of good standing. That puts you in the same boat as any other tosser I ever met.

Being a good man is not implicit in being an ex soldier. Grow up.

Whilst I know, and have many good friends who are good men and women and did and still do serve, this group still does have its fair share of tossers and wankers who stay in because they can't get a job outside, who bleat like fuck about what the job is yet won't leave because they can't cut it outside. They're in it for the money, and they go where they're told because they're told, and the military was never any different.

Spare me the bullshit please, I think we've heard enpough of it from you...

Harlequin001's picture

What you said was ''I needed a job at seventeen and went into the military because the future in the mid seventies was bleak without college and the GI Bill was my best option,'' and there was nothing in it about being motivated by duty.

all after was bullshit.

But let's just put one or two things dead straight. I didn't say I had a dislike for the military, only that soldiers ultimately fought for money, just like you did.

I never said I didn't benefit from it either, neither did I say that I wasn't in it, you made that up as well, and neither did I say I didn't pay for it, or that I wanted to 'not pay for it' as you imply, simply that I HAD THE OPTION whereas you don't, which makes me free and you not.

You need to stop making this shit up as you go along, it does nothing to justify your position.

Simple enough? should be...


AnAnonymous's picture

An unjust social order of gross inequality means there are economic victims that will of course seek out employment or educational opportunities where those can be found, but they trade years of their lives and the possibility of their gruesome death to you in exchange,


This depiction can be applied to many places in the world.

Does it mean that anyone facing this situation is entitled to join the military? Because reading the other post in which you declare that while most brown people are innocent and peaceful, others must be killed before they can kill you.

I wonder how you manage to conciliate the both statements.

akak's picture

It is not the brown people that the rest of the world needs to worry about --- it is those damned blobbing-up, insanitationistic, slanty-eyed, running dog imperialistic yellow foreign devils that are the true threat!

AnAnonymous's picture

At the moment, US citizens are more in the business of killing brown people so they must consider them enough of a real threat.

TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous babbling this wordings:

At the moment, US citizens are more in the business of killing brown people so they must consider them enough of a real threat.

Ah, ah, those people being not brown if care taken judiciously to prevention of Chinese citizenism roadside onto falling.

akak's picture

But slanty-eyed, roadside-shitting, puppy-munching, fetus-slurping, Borglike yellow devils deserve much more the killing of them.

One day, a US bullet will find you, and Satan will introduce you to the eternal nature of your final home.

AnAnonymous's picture

One day, a US bullet will find you, and Satan will introduce you to the eternal nature of your final home.

Thank you, sir.

And at this pace, the bullet will likely be China made.

How wonderful.

akak's picture


And at this pace, the bullet will likely be China made.

And in the ultimate irony, it will probably be the only Chinese-made product that does NOT contain any lead!

AnAnonymous's picture

Unlikely. It will be done on US citizen prescription. US citizens order. And the Chinese produce.

GMadScientist's picture was "for the money" or "because they were told to"...make up your fucking mind.

Depends on what you mean by "free"...I was born that way and intend to remain so, but not because someone did Daddy Warbucks proud.


Harlequin001's picture

Depends on what you mean by "free"...I was born that way'...

You were born into a system of rules that say you pay taxes to the US government regardless of where you go.

You can call that free if you like, I suppose..

GMadScientist's picture

How's that working out for em?


Harlequin001's picture

I take it you're not American then...

newworldorder's picture

RE: Harlequin001

You need to be very clear in your comments. While you make some good observations on the motivations of those who join, I think you missed it.

Having served I do believe that most have joined for the noblest of reasons at the time. Look at volunteer records of WW 2 and just after 9/11. Most believed what they were told by family, community and the MSM. When you serve in a sh*t hole for some time, you see the difference.

battle axe's picture

Harlequin001: You are wrong on so many levels. To describe our veterans as mere "government employees" is just plain stupid and ignorant....

Harlequin001's picture

So who employs them then, if it isn't your government?

and who points them in whichever direction?

battle axe's picture

Harlequin001: So love of country means nothing? So those who believe in something more then just themselves are stupid? Did you ever serve? I might believe that war is incredibly wasteful (Iraq and probably Iran soon) but to insult those who serve is pathetic. I pity you....

Harlequin001's picture

You don't know that I didn't serve, and I don't need your pity.

'Love of country', that's a good phrase to get young boys with no prospects, no assets and no future to stand up for. So just what is it about your country that you love so much, and how much of it is available to those that do serve, which incidentally just happen to be the majority poor people?

and that's not a trick question by the way, my understanding is that most armies these days are deployed on foreign soil fighting for domestic company money...

doesn't sound too much like defending freedom and love of country to me...

'So those who believe in something more then just themselves are stupid?' That sound exactly right to me. You see the pic of the guy sat begging for money? Well that's what it's all really about...

Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Providing for the common defense" is one of the very few enumerated responsibilities of our Republic, as specified in the Constitution.

Every bureaucrat in Washington deserves to get fired before we start talking about the soldiers.

The fact that this isn't obvious to you is a little troubling.

Harlequin001's picture

so you advocate a large army and no administration, is that correct?

Buckaroo Banzai's picture

No, I am saying we need to address problems in the correct order.

GMadScientist's picture

It also has quaint language about not having standing armies for more than two years.


battle axe's picture

Harlequin001:You never served, if you had you would never have said such idiotic things. And yes, I should not pity you, because you are too stupid to realize how wrong you are. Too attack those who wear the uniform is wrong, but again, you do not get it. One word to describe you: SELFISH..You are lost buddy. 

Harlequin001's picture

Like I said, you have no idea...

'if you had you would never have said such idiotic things.' so explain what is so idiotic about those statements...

and then explain why there is not one place on this planet where you can go and not pay taxes to your government.

You call that free?

And for what it's worth, I draw no difference whatsoever between serving army, airforce or police personnel. They are all government employees, just like the people who arrange to pay them.