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Guest Post: Endgame: When Debt Is Fraud, Debt Forgiveness Is The Last And Only Remedy

Tyler Durden's picture





 

Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith from Of Two Minds.

Today I present an important guest essay by long-time contributor Zeus Yiamouyiannis, who suggests that when debt is essentially fraudulent, then debt forgiveness is both the logical and the only remedy.



Endgame: When Debt is Fraud, Debt Forgiveness is the Last and Only Remedy, by Zeus Yiamouyiannis, Ph.D., copyright 2011.

Introduction

Finally serious economists are considering a position I have been maintaining and writing about since the 2008 financial meltdown. Whatever its name— erasure, repudiation, abolishment, cancellation, jubilee—debt forgiveness, will have to eventually emerge forefront in global efforts to solve an ongoing systemic financial crisis.

“On a grand scale the only way to erase counterfeit money and (counterfeit) assets of hundreds of trillions of dollars is to erase the debts associated with those fake assets. (Let me underscore again, these are not “toxic” assets, they are fake assets.)… Forgiveness in general, and forgiveness of debt in particular, stand as virtues if they free us up to acknowledge, address, and learn from our culpability, start anew, and create forward.” (The Big Squeeze, Part 3: The Quiet Rebellion: Civil Disobedience, Local Markets, and Debt Erasure (January 29, 2011)

Debt forgiveness, therefore, accomplishes two important things. It eliminates the increasing and outsized portion of productive enterprise to pay off unproductive obligations, and it clears the ground for new opportunities, new thinking, invention, and entrepreneurialism. This is why the ability to declare bankruptcy is so essential in the pursuit of both happiness and innovation.

Currently we are mired in a “new normal” and calls for “austerity” which are nothing more than the delusional efforts of a status quo to avoid the consequences of its own error and fraud and to profit evermore. So bedazzled by the false wealth created by debt multiplication and its concomitant fantasy of ever-higher returns, this status quo continues to be stupidly amazed that people are not spending and that the economy is not picking up. But how could it be otherwise?

Productive wealth has been trapped in a web of parasitic theft, counterfeiting, liability evasion, non-regulation, and prosecutorial non-accountability. All the fundamental attributes of a functioning exchange economy have been warped to reward creative criminals. I spoke extensively about this in my posts from 2008. (Imaginary Worth, Empire of Debt: How Modern Finance Created Its Own Downfall (October 15, 2008)

The unsustainable nature of debt

Two observations: 1) Fabricated/parasitic so-called “wealth” destroys value by diluting the value of productive wealth. 2) Debt/credit that cannot be paid back is never an asset and is always a hot-potato liability (needing to be foisted to a greater fool to garner “profit” and transaction fees):

“The models [modern debt are] based upon had no contact with reality. They assumed unlimited growth and ability to pay. When matched against the reality of people paying ten times their salary for mortgages that actually added more money owed to their principal (i.e. with negative amortization), required no money down, and set up “balloon payments,” large step-ups in payments after a few years) there is no possible way they could NOT default in a predictable span of time.” (Part II: How the Credit Default Swap Scam Works (October 13, 2008)

Systemically, all debt that charges a percentage (“usury”) originates in delusion. Debt grows exponentially indefinitely, growth (income and otherwise) cannot. This leads to a widening condition where the fruits of productive “growth” devoted to interest payments increase until those fruits are entirely consumed. (The Elephant In The Room: Debt Grows Exponentially, While Economies Only Grow In An S-Curve (Washington's Blog)

Once this happens, stores of wealth (hard assets) begin to be cannibalized to make up for the difference. You see this in Greece with its sale of public assets to private companies, and in middle-class America where people are liquidating retirement accounts to pay for their cost of living.

This problem is compounded by a private Federal Reserve that lends money into circulation at interest, and then allows the multiplication of this consumer debt-money liability through fractional reserve banking. The money in circulation today could pay only a small fraction of the total private and public debt. That fact alone is evidence of a kind of systemic fraud. “If you just work hard enough, save, and make sensible decisions, you can get out of debt” could only physically work for a bare fraction of the population, given the money-to-debt ratio. The rest would have to simply default to clear the boards.

This is why debt forgiveness makes not only moral but rational, mathematical sense. Finances require balancing to be coherent. There must be some way to redress systemic imbalance. One has to be able to “zero the scales” to get an accurate weight of value and to re-establish healthy value creation.

Voices in the debate

Some analysts are beginning to see the forest through the trees in terms of debt forgiveness. Steve Keen, Australian economist and current deflationist, and Michael Hudson, American economic contrarian and prescient essayist, are both using clear-sighted reality-based financial analysis to debunk accounting games that obscure the untenable debt situation and to call for debt forgiveness.

How can selling sovereign assets and imposing austerity on Greek citizens (taking money out of their hands through higher taxes and lower benefits) do anything other than hollow out value and contract the Greek economy in the face of a deep global recession? Michael Hudson: It can’t. Greece’s debt needs to be written off.

“It seems unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that large sectors of the New European population can be made subject to salary garnishment throughout their lives, reducing them to a lifetime of debt peonage… (T)he only way to resolve it is to negotiate a debt write-off…” (The Coming European Debt Wars: EU Countries sinking into Depression (Michael Hudson, Global Research, April 9, 2010)

("[We’ll Have] a Never-Ending Depression Unless We Repudiate the Debt, Which Never Should Have Been Extended In The First Place" (Washington's Blog)

Why isn’t “quantitative easing” and flooding the U.S. economy with debt-money working to prime borrowing and lending? Steve Keen: Because the money is going into deleveraging in a time of overextension:

“Bernanke is throwing (a) trillion dollars into the system. Rather than that leading to ten trillion dollars of additional credit money, creating the inflation people are expecting, that trillion dollars is all that goes in, and people deleveraging actually reduce their level of spending by more than a trillion dollars by trying to pay their debt down, and it cancels out what the government is trying to do… We need a 21st century jubilee.” (On the Edge with . . . Steve Keen (Max Keiser, video)

Other well-known commentators are not seeing the debt forest at all. In their contentious debates over deflation and inflation, neither Rick Ackerman nor Gonzalo Lira seem to be aware of the overwhelmingly fraudulent nature of present global debt-- including the 600 to 1,000 trillion dollars of fabricated notional wealth represented by the derivatives markets, fraudclosure, and a host of other sources.

Rick Ackerman: “’Ultimately, every penny of every debt must be paid — if not by the borrower, then by the lender.’ Inflationists and deflationists implicitly agree on this point… and we differ only on the question of who, borrower or lender, will take the hit.” (Let’s Think This Through Together....)

I posted a pithy response in the comment section:

“Both Rick and Gonzalo left out the obvious third way--debt forgiveness. No… debt does not have to be paid by someone; it can be absolved, especially debt created upon fraudulent and/or counterfeit-ridden practice… (D)erivatives are not real wealth, and neither was the ostensible climb in the values of housing resting in large part on those phony-wealth derivatives.

The only “real wealth” here revolves around ability to produce real and needed goods (to allow us to survive), and the ability to create something that increases one’s quality of life (to promote our thriving). Precious little of the present global economy involves either one of these. Yeah, if we use FASB standards and Goldman Sachs accounting, we can pretend our worthless junk is all really simply very rare, “unique condition” collectibles worth trillions of dollars.

I’ve got a better idea. Take our financial junk out of the global attic in boxes, put them out on the front lawn, and see if anyone wants to pay a few bucks for the various items, give away the leftovers to anyone interested passing on the sidewalk, and recycle, donate, or dispose of the rest. It’s a moving sale, and if our economy is going to get moving, maybe we ought to have one.” (Zeus Yiamouyiannis April 6, 2011 at 4:11 pm)

How it might play out

This subtle debt extortion creates a system of never-ending debt-slavery for a vast majority of the population. When this “manageable” slavery is aggravated by a desire to use hardship to extort ever greater assets from the overburdened at ever cheaper prices (what Naomi Klein calls “disaster capitalism”), by open and unapologetic widespread fraud, and by the unjust offloading of risk and liability to taxpayers who had nothing to do with poor decisions of private banks, then the systemic abuse is revealed in the daily lives of citizens.

Debt creates scarcity, which stimulates fear, which drives manic competition, which favors opportunism, collusion, and concentrations of power, which translates to abuse, which results in a collapse of legitimacy for the economic system. Overreach causes a breaking point, and we are getting close to it. Will the response be warfare, taxpayer revolt, political upheaval, mass default, debt forgiveness, something other, some combination? I have predicted pockets of violence would be mixed with some softer combination of taxpayer revolt, mass default, political upheaval, and debt forgiveness, along with a return to community exchange to meet basic needs. (The Big Squeeze, Part 3: The Quiet Rebellion: Civil Disobedience, Local Markets, and Debt Erasure (January 29, 2011)

This possibility of epic reprisal may very well compel banks to come to the table around debt forgiveness to avoid violent backlash and criminal prosecution, even over preserving their gravy train companies. The bitter irony of these companies and their galloping greed is that they ended up victimizing each other by selling junk to each other and extracting all the real value in salary and bonuses. Their assets rest on notional values, that when unmasked would drive each into immediate insolvency. They have simply been scam artists, producing little value and extracting mountains of money.

What might this look like? Looking at present trends and using the very useful framework of Kubler-Ross’s stages of grief, it might go something like this…

Average debtor:

1) Denial: Liquidate savings to pay for over-priced house and cost of living.
2) Anger and fear: Exhaust resources, experience want, compounded by austerity measures.
3) Bargaining: Attempt to negotiate with bank through HAMP and other mechanisms to lower payments. Banks don 't bite and even have incentives to foreclose.
4) Depression: Lose/default on the house and move in with family or cheap rental.
5) Find out life is better without being a debt slave and spend more time with community and the ones you love.

Bankers:

1) Denial: Collect 144 billion in bonuses after financial collapse and laugh as not a single trading day loss arises for zombie TBTF banks completely subsidized by governments.
2) Anger: Express false righteousness, indignation, and hubris over even modest/toothless demands/regulations attempted to be placed on them by governments. Exhibit sadistic zeal at being able to simply claim you own and liquidate properties they have no clear title to.
3) Bargaining: Experience dawning awareness that may have just cooked your own gooses as strategic defaults skyrocket, populist demands to prosecute fraudclosure gain traction, and quantitative easing ad infinitum dwindles and fails to keep stock prices artificially aloft. Improvise panicked attempts to "be reasonable" and actually negotiate, once the asset and money flow well runs dry.
4) Depression: Contemplate and realize possible bankruptcy by big banks. Retreat to the Hamptons to hire criminal defense lawyers, contemplate empty life, and shoulder the abuse of media and contempt of a global citizenry.
5) Acceptance: Trying to regain "good guy" status and avoid criminal prosecution by agreeing to be part of debt forgiveness.

Once defaults happen in increasing numbers and certain asset prices plunge (i.e. real estate), what will initially look like a bonanza for capitalist parasites could easily get out of hand, with people either unable or unwilling to buy inventory even at greatly reduced prices. Profits would tank at banks, liabilities would skyrocket even with most of it transferred to government guarantee. Because no one plays the game anymore, banks could go under as well, as people rise to vote out bank-friendly politicians and simply refuse to pay. This unraveling could easily force exposure of the notional value of derivatives in banks as worthless, meaning they are as bankrupt as the people they exploited. At this point, there will be a common desire and need to simply "forgive" the debts and try to find some way to distribute these empty homes.

Conclusion

Debt forgiveness simply calls out either the inherent systemic inability to make good on debts or the recognition that debt was produced through fraudulent means. In the present situation, both conditions obtain. There has likely been no point in world history where debt forgiveness has been so comprehensively merited. The only speculation from my point (barring world-wide global feudalism and eternal debt slavery) is whether we will initiate such forgiveness or be forced into it.



Thank you, Zeus, for this prescient and insightful analysis of debt and debt renunciation.The Kondratieff Cycle can only turn to Spring after debt renunciation completes the Winter cycle. Let's stop pretending we're still in Summer, and that the Fed's puny "quantitative easing" and monetary cargo-cult machinations can reverse the seasons.

 


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Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment takeaction
takeaction's picture

This guy describes the GAME perfectly.....You have to see this guy.  He calls it right. Take the time to watch...well worth it!  Please watch all the way....Last 2 minutes..EPIC!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENWiSr3GkA&feature=player_detailpage#t=2s

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:16 | Link to Comment takeaction
takeaction's picture

Just clicked the start of a couple...Nice.  Thanks.  Marked for later viewing!

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:29 | Link to Comment MarcusLCrassus
MarcusLCrassus's picture

Yes, this guy is the real deal.  Sounds like he hit a little too close to home for some.

He basically says that the only way to fix the system is to re-write all the laws so that things the banksers do that are technically legal to do are made illegal.  The fact that they basically wrote these laws in the first place has resulted in them being able to get away with financial terrorism because the financial terrorism that they commit on a daily basis is still technically legal.  Just nationalizing the Fed won't do the trick as the Fed is just an instrument of the banking machinery as a whole. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:40 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

impossible.  it would be like unscrambling eggs.  besides, they control all the resources and buy off all the politicians.  common people have enough trouble just keeping a roof over their heads and feeding their kids.  this ends in blood, or enslavement...  or some of both.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:11 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"they control all the resources"

 

LOL!  Not according to many oilfield and natgas workers my brother and I know.  During a crisis, possession is the law my friend and aside from bricks and concrete I don't see much of anything of value in NY city.  You should also realize that many of those resource-rich states have the majority of the volunteers for the armed forces.  In the end, the military leaders will most likely sort this one out.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:27 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

agree with the gist of what you are saying... but, your proposed course of action also requires a repudiation of the legal system entirely.  because there is no way to fix this mess inside the system as it exists today.  to pass a simple law takes a huge expensive effort, and they control the process.  in other words, the legistlative and court systems are dead ends for real change.   what you are suggesting is more along the lines of the "blood" I also had in mind.  if you don't get rid of the legal system, everything that you propose is "illegal" and will be overtuned.  

i too have wondered for awhile when the military guys would figure out that they are being used to fight wars that do serve the constitution or the american people, but rather international bankers, corporations and foreign powers?  guys at the top must know, and must have sold out...  maybe a coup a the colonel level... isn't that how it usually goes down.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:33 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"but, your proposed course of action also requires a repudiation of the legal system entirely."

 

LOL!!!!  Like this hasn't happened already.  Thanks for sending me out of my chair with laughter!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:38 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

yeah, by them.  you try it and let me know how it goes.   the kings of kings were never bound by the legal system, that's just for the proles.  didn't think that needed to be mentioned.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:00 | Link to Comment ussa
ussa's picture

Your senior military leaders are chosen because they buy into this philosophy. 

Good luck effectively coordinating battalion level commanders across air/ground/sea assets.  Most of these leaders are focused on proficiency and effectiveness at the uniti level and have very little perspective of debt has money and its broader implications for debt slavery and political control.  They are also wise enough to know or at least be extremely wary of the terrible consequences of military intervention in the US political system. 

Bottom line:  Don't depend on the oath to the constitution any three or four star has made to rid the country of the debt based money system.   Many have bought into the system and were selected because of that belief or are too focused on military duties and missions.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:00 | Link to Comment ussa
ussa's picture

Your senior military leaders are chosen because they buy into this philosophy. 

Good luck effectively coordinating battalion level commanders across air/ground/sea assets.  Most of these leaders are focused on proficiency and effectiveness at the uniti level and have very little perspective of debt has money and its broader implications for debt slavery and political control.  They are also wise enough to know or at least be extremely wary of the terrible consequences of military intervention in the US political system. 

Bottom line:  Don't depend on the oath to the constitution any three or four star has made to rid the country of the debt based money system.   Many have bought into the system and were selected because of that belief or are too focused on military duties and missions.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 22:05 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Bullseye, LoP.

While the very sophisticated and well-dressed DBs in NYC might look down on me and mine from their ivory towers, the fact remains that we do not now, and have never in the past, needed to sell them our corn, cheese and beef at firesale prices.  

The heartland provides a public service to the United States, and for decades we have been at a Nash equilibrium.  We provide the food and bottled water for your cesspools, and you provide the toys and innovative flavored coffees.  It used to be a win/win, because, quite frankly, cows are boring and we needed distraction.

But now?  You're a bunch of track-suit wearing, canoli eating fat SOBs who couldn't toss a hay bale to save your pathetic lives.  We don't have to fight you, you'll die on your own when the food supply dries up.  

If a million farmers, and the remaining blue-collar production workers change their names to Galt, you, so solly, are fucked with a capital "F."

We have clean air, clean water, and airable land.  We have moral fiber and muscles that have not yet atrophied.  I can nab iron ore off the surface of the ground with a magnet.  We have oil sand, and a spanking new plant to process it that can be seen from ten miles away.  

Take off your Gucci loafers, and join us.  We all used to be Americans, and god-willing, we might be again someday.  The time has long since passed when everyone needed to STFU, get in the boat, and row- nobody can match the American people, wherever such may still be found.  Unfortunately, Americans are a dying breed- but maybe some of you bitchez can be rehabilitated.

Then again, I've have a couple this evening, and maybe I'm just picking a fight for the sake of it.  

Nawww.... Fuck ya.  Stop whining and get back to work- TANSTAAFL, Bitchez.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:43 | Link to Comment bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

This ends with enslavement. We are already enslaved-it will go lower though. The problem is that people do not realize that there has been a coup and they are even now being conditioned to accept the brunt of the impact of the coup-so when it comes, we will all just go along to get along. The whole situation is ripe for the financial endgame and it has been for a couple years now.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment Bob
Bob's picture

We may have a SkyNet situation, Sir!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:59 | Link to Comment andybev01
andybev01's picture

The notion of "unscrambling eggs" isn't what they are talking about.

They want to throw out the eggs altogether and start with new ones.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:43 | Link to Comment macholatte
macholatte's picture

to re-write all the laws so that things the banksers do that are technically legal to do are made illegal. 

what they do WAS illegal

Please review Glass-Steagall Act which was repealled by Clinton and the Gang of 3 (http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19990215,00.html

look here to start:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

 

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 17:15 | Link to Comment macholatte
macholatte's picture

RE: Debt Forgiveness

Isn't there a well known procedure for that already in place called bankruptcy?

So what's to debate? What's with all the chatter? It ain't going to happen and that's the way it is unless a new and refreshing way to screw the tax payers is invented.

 

Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time.
Steven Wright

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 21:54 | Link to Comment lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

scam of the century / criminals of the year ........ print money out of thin air, charge interest / IT'S CALLED USERY .     & it's a deliberate take-down.    

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:56 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

good vids thanks.  He does seem to get it...  especially from a broader perspective that looks beyond economics. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:17 | Link to Comment ATG
ATG's picture
'Cheney fears trial as war criminal': Colin Powell aide hits out at former VP Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2032034/Dick-Cheney-fears-trial-war-criminal-says-Colin-Powell-aide.html#ixzz1WjHIbxji
Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:41 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

Damon Vrabel is the dude that put all this exellent body of work up on his web site.   Perhaps he got initimated by the Power ,and as the result he refused to publish any new stuff since January 2011. 

 

here is what he said:

 

http://csper.wordpress.com/

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:45 | Link to Comment SirPlayomic
SirPlayomic's picture

Thanks for linking those, this guy is really speaking from the heart.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:15 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

on the other side of all of those debts is someone treating that as income.

So wtf, you're going to fuck EVERYbody who was productive out of their savings while giving the freeloaders yet another pass, and the banksters get to walk away and keep all their commissions.

Repudiate the banks, not everyone else.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:32 | Link to Comment Highrev
Highrev's picture

Moral Hazard raised to infinity!

("Repudiate the banks" and the freeloading debtors.)

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:42 | Link to Comment Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Highrev, your avaatar picture always make sme smile. Always. :-)

I say Repudiate the system, Politics, Banking and Supermarket Food Chains for starters anyways.

Collectively, we can starve the beast. But collectively, we suck. Always greedy brothers and sisters to jump in and take advantage. Which si really why we are where we are.

I know some advertising types who think they are doing god's work too.

V

http://aadivaahan.wordpress.com/2011/08/30/humor-me/

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:33 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Aren't the banksters composed mostly of old white males, your favoured demographic for the master race?

The acute dementia you suffer from must make coping day to day very difficult indeed, my sympathies.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:34 | Link to Comment A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000
A.W.E.S.O.M.-O 4000's picture

I think by "fuck everybody" he means the richest 1% of the planet

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:11 | Link to Comment Incubus
Incubus's picture

And that would be correct; we are units of labor--we are 'humanoids' that supply the 'humans' with the only thing we're good for: our labor. By design, your "common" man is but a creature that will never rise to the top tier of Maslow's hierarchy.  We consume and produce and exist for the sake of those who are "at the top."  We're concerned over things of no consequence; we're lesser animals that're domesticated in a social farm system.

You're born, you exist; you're conditioned by your relative social system, you work, you fuck, you create little future units of labor, you condition your little future units of labor, they start to work to support the system, and you're free to die.  That's your purpose--that's our purpose. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:30 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I just knew I'd heard that somewhere before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krcNIWPkNzA

"You saved my life, and in return I'll spare yours... for now."-Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 21:53 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

dem old whiteys beez racist n sheeit muhfug

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 22:22 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture


"Aren't the banksters composed mostly of old white males, your favoured demographic for the master race?

The acute dementia you suffer from must make coping day to day very difficult indeed, my sympathies."

Please present a case in which modern society was not conceptualized, designed, and built by "old white males."  

I don't give a shit about "persecuting" anyone, but come on- let's have some credit where credit is due.  Just because other people did not do something is not a reason to demonize the people who did.  Tired of working myself to death so that others can feel they get their fucking welfare as a "right," because they think I did something that forced them to smoke dope and wear pants that don't fit instead of reading books and learning some manners (and yes, this sadly includes all kinds of white kids, too.)

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:59 | Link to Comment SystemsGuy
SystemsGuy's picture

Repudiate the banks, repudiate everyone else. A jubilee is a reset - contracts get renegotiated, and as with any such negotiation, the rebalancing point will need to meet both the lender and the borrower's requirements. Lawyers make out like bandits for a few years, but for once they'll be earning their money facilitating the rebalance rather than making it worse. Jubilee doesn't mean that creditors lose everything, only that they will have to come to the table and will likely potentially lose some. As the creditors are the ones overall that have the advantage here, that's only reasonable. It also means that having secured better terms for their debt, borrowers are more legally obligated to pay off that debt - bankruptcy is likely not an option for several years.

Re-regulating the system would help here as well. The primary challenge that this economy faces is that risk has, through various financial shenanigans, been transferred from those taking the risk to those who benefit least from that risk when it goes bad. The purpose of regulation is to insure that the consequences of risk, good and bad, remain with those who take those risks. People who complain about government regulation fail to realize this very important role of the regulator.

The suggestions above make sense - renegotiate unfair contracts while insuring those who have taken those risks are responsible for their own actions. The creditor gets to keep what he's made, the debtor (as a risk taker) has a more realistic balance moving forward but cannot take back what he's already spent.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:31 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

I dont trust the people who will be appointed to be the deciders on what is fair and unfair debt.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 21:56 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

We're supposed to leave it up to lawyers to decide who gets what? During the process, the lawyers will grab a huge chunk of the assets for their work?  Sure, because we all know that lawyers are the most honest people out there and they couldn't be influenced by bribes and kickbacks. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:36 | Link to Comment CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Pretty much, t.

All these articles and comments looking for principal forgiveness never ever address handing money to people who paid off their mortgage.

These are just self serving drivel pieces that solve nothing.

A preliminary attack would be to declare activities to be fraud.  Fraud is the trigger for clawbacks under NY state law.

Until clawback enters the discussion, they arent' going to back off.

And until bullets start entering skulls, they aren't going to reverse anything.

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 04:51 | Link to Comment AE911Truth
AE911Truth's picture

Dear trav777, ref: "on the other side of all of those debts is someone treating that as income.
So wtf, you're going to fuck EVERYbody who was productive out of their savings"

If you are on the other side of all those debts, GET OUT NOW, before you find yourself broke. Those debts can not be repaid.

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 05:02 | Link to Comment caerus
caerus's picture

pain is my element as hate is thine;

ye rend me now: i care not.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:59 | Link to Comment Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

It is nice to point out the obvious despicable fraud, but a blanket remedy like debt forgiveness is not equal justice. ESPECIALLY when we have a greedy entitlement class willing to kill for a new teat to suckle at. They are just as out of control as the filthy, thieving ruling class and there are A LOT more of them. The responsible moral people and their children in America will end up footing the bill for something ridiculous like this, mark these words. We MUST think carefully about what we ask for...

Fri, 09/02/2011 - 01:37 | Link to Comment V10
V10's picture

Be eaten by the bankster class, or be eaten by the welfare class.

Yeah, some choice...

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:20 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JENWiSr3GkA&feature=player_detailpage#t=2s

________________________________________________________________________________________________

takeaction ,

my response to Mr. Answers.

"you should be the decider.. just like Bush!! you should decide who is and who is NOT worthy..

Children should be born with wisedom.. is what you are saying and they the chirldren should be shunned until are educated and at least 40 years old.

that will fix everything! You are Brilliant!"

Everyone has to be educated, no one is born with the knowledge needed to effect change in this pysop world.

People will grow at the speed allowable, they will comprehend as fast as they can..

There should only be support for any on the path no matter how far along they are or are not.

This semi-perfection that is needed before someone is worthy is poppycock!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:22 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

a real smart girl said these words the other day and they have stuck with me..

who's your farmer? _________________________

who's your banker? _________________________

where's your money? _______________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sti1xMOYj0

she warned of the housing problems.. she was the head of Department of Housing under Bush.

Fitts served as managing director and member of the board of directors of the Wall Street investment bank Dillon, Read & Co. Inc., as Assistant Secretary of Housing and Federal Housing[1] Commissioner at the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development in the first Bush Administration, and was the president of Hamilton Securities Group, Inc., an investment bank and financial software developer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_Austin_Fitts

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 21:06 | Link to Comment Taint Boil
Taint Boil's picture

|

|

This guy has it right. Got screwed and screwed them back:

http://patrick.net/forum/?p=25968

(Sorry for always posting this but it is a funny story).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:03 | Link to Comment nope-1004
nope-1004's picture

 

 

This is why the ability to declare bankruptcy is so essential in the pursuit of both happiness and innovation.

Not in the vocab of the snake oil salesman.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:01 | Link to Comment MS7
MS7's picture

I tried to add a +1 but for some reason it is not working on your comment. (it works on other comments.) So let me just say I agree.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 17:06 | Link to Comment andybev01
andybev01's picture

You're right.

I gave you a green flag for his comment.

 

Pass it on :-)

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:06 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

We've essentially forgiven the debts by the banks, and look at what That's done!

Sorry, but as much as I think that this is the only way that things will end I'm not thinking that it does anything to set the tables for better social conduct (reducing the notion that one has to honor one's debts only encourages continued moral decline).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:19 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

The problem is that debt forgiveness or debt forgiveness by another name, inflation/bailouts, have thus far been one sided. Only the banks have been bailed out or had debts forgiven/inflated away. This of course is the road to tyranny.

A global debt reset on the other hand would have potential benefits. Certainly debt created through fraud should be forgiven and most of that is Joe 6-pack debt whether through pension funds getting screwed with MBS or fraudulently presented home loans where details where misrepresented by mortgage salesmen making commission.

Moral decline is a joke at this point. Moral decline is caused by the current status quo of Banksters defrauding with impunity and the protection of this behavior by the political class and related injustices by politicos. People want to whine about J6P moral decline not noticing that the rot started at the head of the fish not the tail.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:32 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

what about ALL of the pensions all over who have been CONNED by the banksters into exchaging something real for a bogus debt that was all whitewashed by the rest of the banking racket?  And probably the pension manager or elected officials took a bribe to close the deal?

You have REAL counties and REAL cities selling REAL assets to fucking bankers to attempt to repay debts...but if the municipality defaults, the citizens who received no benefit from all the debt end up getting all the burden too.  And what about the muni bondholders on the other side, all the pensioners who traded real money to bankers for those bonds?

Iceland is a nation that refused to backstop the debts of its private bank and look at what the Euro powers have tried to do to them...

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:37 | Link to Comment cossack55
cossack55's picture

I love Iceland. Just wait till Katla speaks. Fuck the IMF, WB, ECB and the Fed.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:39 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

I was just there actually.

Again, I saw an economic collapse that looked NOTHING WHATSOEVER like what the silver and canned ham stacking madmax morons predict one should look like.  I have a souvenir drawer now with lots of funny colored banknotes with lots of zeroes on them and I am YET to see anything resembling the starving zombie hordes that were supposed to be the inevitable outcome from this sort of thing.

The icelanders are putting up greenhouses to grow their own produce and selling tourism as hard as they can.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:12 | Link to Comment Canaduh
Canaduh's picture

Iceland has a small population and more energy than they could ever use.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:19 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"more energy than they could ever use"

Hm... has their population increased? has their energy use increased?  I'm not seeing that there could be NO limits as you suggest: actually, nature says otherwise.

I get your point though, and that's that, given a stable population and static energy use Iceland is well situated.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:54 | Link to Comment Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

Iceland is like one big volcano which they can use for thermal electricity at very low cost.

BUT!!

Icelanders are having a very hard time whatever mister happyface tells you.

Living costs are crazy, and if you go on vacation for 1 week to iceland it will set you back 2OOO euro per person without expenses.

Everything we are used to is imported and they get along because Iceland is mostly farmers who provide for themselves.

All their life savings are gone BUT Icelanders have always had the habit of owning assets instead of savings.

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:57 | Link to Comment macholatte
macholatte's picture

All their life savings are gone

isn't that the new normal?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 22:00 | Link to Comment sun tzu
sun tzu's picture

How many in America or Europe have savings?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 22:45 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Me, for one.

Plastered the first box into an undisclosed wall of my house and painted over it today- more to follow.

Fri, 09/02/2011 - 07:21 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

it was hella expensive when i was there but that was before the kroner took a dive.   maybe trav can drop some honest knowledge of what it's like now since he just came back?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:18 | Link to Comment Mark_BC
Mark_BC's picture

Iceland is nothing like the US. They get their own energy from geothermal and they don't own the world's reserve currency.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:43 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

But the Icelanders still need oil for fishing.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment Mark_BC
Mark_BC's picture

I thought they abandoned their fisheries due to depletion, they instead decided to develop their financial industries ..... maybe they are now back to nurturing their fisheries back to health. Turns out you can't eat paper...

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:12 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

they never abandoned their core biz while they thought they could've diversified  into pushing paper GDP. The Ponzi ended up in tears for most people there. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:22 | Link to Comment SystemsGuy
SystemsGuy's picture

Icelanders are, for the most part, hardy people who deal regularly with extremes of weather, geographic isolation, and a geology that could mildly be described as hyperactive. It's worth occasionally remembering that they were the most fearsome of the Vikings a millennium ago. They are also intelligent, principled, and tend to demand an accounting of their political and economic leaders. If and when the rest of the world ends, the Icelanders will continue to put up greenhouses and adjust accordingly.

The US is, on the other hand, a powderkeg, primed and ready to blow. We have created multiple layers of bureaucratic responsibility that serve generally to insulate the powerful rather than assist them, we have made private law - privilege - a cornerstone of our present society largely by default, and we have an active populace that is increasingly likely to resort to violence, but without any cohesive target. People don't revolt in the streets because it does no good - a million people show up in a city protesting the status quo and any mention of it in the media will focus on the tiny fraction of pro-Quo protestors with posters printed by Bank of America and ClearChannel, misspellings and all. This means that most protests become passive acts of desparation - people stop paying taxes and default on their mortgages, not because they are scofflaws but because they have no other choice - and the few that resort to physical or electronic vandalism become targets of corporate-led lawsuits and investigations.

The US has long been described as a sleeping giant. They tend to suffer insult after insult with seemingly no effect, then one day a tipping point is reached, and the people of the country mobilize. We're getting closer to that day. When it happens, it won't be the mad-max moment, but instead will be people who've had enough who will throw ALL the bums out. The powerful generally do everything they can to keep things from getting to that point, because at the end of the day, they are still only men and women, and there are far, far fewer of them than there are of everyone else. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:52 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

I love Iceland. Just wait till Katla speaks. Fuck the IMF, WB, ECB and the Fed.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

cossack55 ,

New item in your series of interest:

Country Report No. 11/263: Iceland: Sixth Review Under the SBA and Proposal for Post-Program Monitoring - Staff Report; Staff Statement; Press Release on the Executive Board Discussion; and Statement by the Executive Director for Iceland.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=25200.0

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:33 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"and most of that is Joe 6-pack debt whether through pension funds getting screwed or fraudulently presented home loans where details where misrepresented by mortgage salesmen making commission."

Joe 6-pack was happy to be programmed to be on the other end of these transactions.  While I agree that nearly all of this was initiated by the big boys, there was still no one holding a gun to anyone's head.  Even in the case where fraud occurred, it was based on falsifying records to enable loans to take place.  IF a borrower were fiscally prudent he/she would still be afloat despite the falsification of loan origination docs: of course, as things continue to collapse it will become increasingly harder to maintain mortgages.

As far as pensions go... it was ALL inflated, a mirage.  Pensions are nothing but Ponzi schemes, private as well as public (in the form of SS).  All based on improbable returns (perpetual growth, which will really only happen with perpetual inflation).

I am NOT arguing that the ideas of pensions or home ownership is bad, just that they have been over-subjected to fantasy land.  Based on historical norms they're wildly anomalistic.  The fact that pensions and home ownership got tangled should give pause for thought as to how far things have derailed, how far from sustainable everything has become.  Wipe out the debt and we still don't have purchasing power to ramp things back up: and why? attempt to repeat it all over again? and, given depleting resources, for how much longer?

Debt forgiveness will still leave us with a majority of the population that would fall into the same traps.  Until we all realize that the buck stops with each of us no debt forgiveness or "fix" is going to change anything.

Lastly, I'm all for prosecuting the perps.  I just don't see it happening, though, as, as you note about the fish rot, it would rely on the rotting head to condemn itself, and we know that rats aren't likely to commit suicide.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:37 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

Gee, why do you suppose there was a religious prohibition against usury for like a thousand years?

When jesus talked about that sort of thing, borrowing and lending, who do you think he was speaking to and from what perspective of personal experience?

The Founders had also personally witnessed the bankster clan ruining people and even entire nations with their schemes.  Thus, they wrote fiat out of the constitution.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:57 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

I'm not sure how your post connects/responds to mine, but let me say this, I am NOT advocating anything other than for us all to evolve.  And clearly, it doesn't appear that much has changed since the time of Jesus.  Sigh, debt forgiveness will only reset the game, it won't CHANGE the game- that is, it'll be rinse and repeat...

The more that people understand that they are responsible for themselves the more likely they will be able to protect themselves from the real parasites.  It's fucking painful to be sure, but unless we do suck it up power will continue to concentrate (it's the BIG=FAIL thing again).

I have empathy for those scammed, scorn for those who have been the scammers, and hope that we look to change the game rather than reset the pieces (with the same flawed crap that's produced this failing paradigm).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:15 | Link to Comment ex VRWC
ex VRWC's picture

It won't reset the game.  The game is over, one way or the other.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:40 | Link to Comment karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

bible - moral decline? hmmmmmm.

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:06 | Link to Comment j0nx
j0nx's picture

Bunk. There will be WW3 before banksters would ever submit to J6P debt jubilee. The people get jack shit and they will like it. It's always been that way and I see nothing in history or the present that makes me think otherwise.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:09 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Agree, hedge accordingly.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:16 | Link to Comment PaperBugsBurn
PaperBugsBurn's picture

The debt is the slave chain and they will not remove it peacefully ever but this is exactly what needs to be done: sovereign money (not even gold or silver backed really -and I am a gold miner - shit).

 

sovereign debt - oxymoron of the century

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:20 | Link to Comment Kali
Kali's picture

Yes, it is an oxymoron, more commonly known as a coup.  I personally like the term "debt repudiation", sounds so defiant.  And it IS fraudulent debt.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:24 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Exactly, anyone thinking a debt jubilee for the peasantry is coming has overdosed on Hopium big time. Dream on. Peasant debt will never be forgiven, and banks will never take a loss.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:39 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"banks will never take a loss."

Perhaps willingly, but...

"Banks" are not united.  The industry maybe, but not individual banks: did you miss this with Lehman Brothers?

Losses WILL occur, up to the point that there remains but a couple of them, at which point they will unite for their self-preservation, not like this will turn fiction into reality, but that's all that they know.

When everyone's in debt or even if debt was all wiped out, hyperinflation?, the banks would become irrelevant.  They're dying entities and they know it.  The entire paradigm, which is built around them, is pretty much gasping its last breath...

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:43 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

OH the CENTRAL banks are united, bet your ass! Under the Warburg, Rothschild, Rockefeller, etc families. Always have been, always will be (unless theyre all strung up with piano wire) and theyve always started and funded all wars and started all depressions. Folks, everything going on today was planned decades ago.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:53 | Link to Comment centerline
centerline's picture

Yup.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:07 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Sure, they are united until enough pressure forms.  You can bet your ass that human nature takes over and it then becomes everyone for themselves.

Central banks are the structure, they aren't necessarily real banks in the sense that you or I go there and transact.  Maybe I'm wrong on this point, hopefully someone will gently point out where and provide guidance (rather than emotional knee-jerking).  Again, Lehman was singled out and sacrificed.  One day they existed, and the next they were gonners.  Pressure built up, not enough to go around, and POOF!

While the financial sector is powerful, I don't believe that it can defy real-world pressures (forever).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:42 | Link to Comment karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

if you bank then you transact with  a central bank.

 

Perhaps you would think more about the central banks as to their purpose?

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 17:42 | Link to Comment zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Banks are already bailed out with tax payers money. They damn care any more. If your house is in foreclosure, sleep well for the next ten years. 

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:26 | Link to Comment DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

Agreed.  The test for the people v banks was in 2008.  We bailed them.  We lost the game.  They won.

They will see us annihilated in WWIII or an engineered plague before they'll lose.  They know the game is up eventually but we bought them enough time to prepare.

They should have been told to fuck off in 2008 (like Iceland did).  Our governments failed because they were cowed/bought.

I see only two possible outcomes:

1) The majority accept the standard-of-living similar to the poorest social groups in the developing countries while the richest elite minority own and control everything.

2) We refuse to accept this and the elite initiate a very large cull.

2008 should have been the day of reckoning for the WS/Bankster scum.  It never happened.  We lost without a shot being fired.

 

Shit, I feel pissed-off :(

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:34 | Link to Comment MarcusLCrassus
MarcusLCrassus's picture

In the end we the people will win.  When the system becomes too corrupt, it is destroyed.  It always comes full circle.  That's why they call them "Revolutions". 

Now when this will happen is the real question.  Until we have a 10% or so awareness to kick off the critical mass, the herd will continue its trip on the conveyor belt into the slaughterhouse. 

I suggest that it's time to get organized.  Assemble all the academics and activists and all of us into a Unity party with a clear agenda and clear demands.  Make it the number one priority so that the conservatives and liberals can put aside their disagreements on other issues (stupid wedge issues) to tackle the far more important issue at stake. 

It is time.  Maybe Tyler can be our party chair? 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:13 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Movements become corrupted/co-opted.  Those who agree that decentralization needs to take place would understand that "unification" is antithetical to decentralization: whenever you create a structure you create points that can be hijacked by the power-crazed (who will lie, cheat, steal...).

No need to rally a bunch of people up, just start living as you feel life should be.  You'll never have everyone on board, and, things won't be easy.

Revolutions are in the mind.  That we have these ideas means that the revolution has already started.  The shift is already on.

"La Revolucion is like a great love affair. In the beginning, she is a goddess. A holy cause. But... every love affair has a terrible enemy: time. We see her as she is. La Revolucion is not a goddess but a whore. She was never pure, never saintly, never perfect."

- Jack Palance, as 'Jesus Raza', in, 'The Professionals' (1966)

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:55 | Link to Comment ex VRWC
ex VRWC's picture

+1 for that quote!

Fri, 09/02/2011 - 07:12 | Link to Comment tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

for those who habla espanol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycJT-71fcyA

p.s. nice comment seer, maybe not a revolution this time but an evolution, maybe.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:32 | Link to Comment weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Well said.  The whole red state/blue state nonsense is the bankster's magician trick to 'look over there at those people, not us'. 

Unfortunately, I think it's going to take some sort of crisis to galvanize the sheeple into action.  This is why I'm hoping this mess implodes sooner rather than later.  The sooner we have a banking system collapse, the better we'll be.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:46 | Link to Comment karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

red/blue is a distraction.

 

 

Try Apple/google/Amerikan Idol---- those are your gods - revolution was brought to you by Jobs and you suck his knob over it.

 

You "people".......................

 

You have revolutions all the time and they are boob-tubed for your pleasure, else the red/blue show would never be brought up.

 

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:31 | Link to Comment Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Please, no more g-ddamned galvanizing.  Just tune in, turn on and drop out.  Do it now.  Just opt out anyway you can.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 17:17 | Link to Comment andybev01
andybev01's picture

You'll know it's time to bug out when they start giving away wall-sized HDTV's and free cable access.

Because you know, the revolution will not be televised.

Fri, 09/02/2011 - 01:45 | Link to Comment animalogic
animalogic's picture

They will see us annihilated in WWIII or an engineered plague before they'll lose. They know the game is up eventually but we bought them enough time to prepare

Agree.

Whether the "game" is up or not is a gamble the oligarchs are more than willing to take: why not --it's a heads we win, tails you lose situation for them. Allowing debt forgiveness would be for them the equivilent of folding without even seeing the other hands. Better to gamble that the economy will eventually clear itself than to actually forgive debts -- in their eyes perhaps the most morally reprehensible act imaginable. To their minds even if the system did crumble they would be fine behind their razor wire walls or in their twin engined jets...Eventually everything would reset--in their favor. And all the destroyed lives...? "What? I don't understand the question...? Oh yes, terrible, very unfortunate..."

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:34 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

well, there was one recent time in history where the bankster cousins were exterminated wherever they were found...but we refer to that as the ultimate evil.

Whenever a debt reset is coming, the banksters and their cousins will know the time and place and will be positioned as a result of centuries of ruthless racist nepotism.

The ONLY defense against racism is racism in response.  You cannot play by the rules when the other side cheats.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:45 | Link to Comment MarcusLCrassus
MarcusLCrassus's picture

Maybe its time to do what King Phillip IV of France did in 1307 and round up all the banksters and give them a nice 'going away' present, similar to what he did the Templar Knights, who were the international bankers of their time. 

You figure its been 700 years.  Its time to clean house. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:12 | Link to Comment john39
john39's picture

no doubt about that.  too bad for all of us that he didn't get them all, not even close.  Some went to scottland... others to what is now switzerland.   and they picked up right where the left off...   of course, we can't leave out where these guys learned they best tricks, while on the crusades...   a real unholy alliance with some of the locals you might say.

Fri, 09/02/2011 - 02:12 | Link to Comment animalogic
animalogic's picture

Yes, good point.

It reminds me of a colourful historical character, the Dictator Sulla (begging your indulgence from those who know the story). On his return to Rome having thrashed his various enemies, both international and domestic, he turned to repaying some of his "debts" both real and imagined. Whether or not it was true that people came to him and begged for "certainty" after quite a number of Sulla's enemies simply "disappeared" I don't know. What is sure, is that Sulla introduced the "Proscription List" a list of names for immediate arrest, death and confiscation of all property. Not one of History's high points, granted; but there are some parallels with today's financial criminals: the bulk of the names on the List were those from the Equestrian Class: Rome's own class of wealthy bankers, tax farmers and merchants.

Is there a moral here? Probably not... for all Sulla's good and evil he was, in the historical process at least, not much more than a blip, an intermission, if you like. Perhaps, that's the moral...? Anyway, the true revolutionary came later, the socalled "Divine Julius"...

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:57 | Link to Comment DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

I don't believe this is a race issue.  I don't believe any form of racism will sort the problem out.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:15 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

"You cannot play by the rules when the other side cheats."

And we should act surprised, when in fact it was the cheats who created the rules in the first place?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:41 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

by WW3, do you mean "another holocaust"?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:56 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

by WW3, do you mean "another holocaust"?

___________________________________________________________________

trav7777 ,

New item in your series of interest:

IMF Research Bulletin -- September 2011:

The Q&A in this issue features seven questions about economic recovery after "WARS" or other "open conflict"

(by Antonio C. David, Fabiano Rodrigues Bastos, and Marshall Mills).

The research summaries are "Revisiting Capital Controls"

(by Marcos Chamon)

and "Capital Flows and Financial Stability: Monetary Policy and Macroprudential Responses"

(by D. Filiz Unsal).

The issue also provides details on visiting scholars at the IMF (mainly from September through December 2011), as well as recently published IMF Working Papers and Staff Discussion Notes.

http://www.imf.org/External/Pubs/FT/irb/2011/03/index.pdf

 

The reason that people minus you.. is becuase you are speaking the truth and they dont like the truth.. thusly the messenger, YOU! are Bad! in this case.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:28 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

it is amazing how David Cameron (the PM of England) can go Public with the Idea that Multiculturalism is a Failed Policy.. thusly blaming the Jews outright and get away with it? maybe it is because he is far from the first in europe to have had more than enough of the mid-east drama bullshit.. send the sand niggers home to the sand box.. let them throw shit at each other there instead of in our backyards.

 

or maybe the liberal progressives.. the same ones who have been made to feel guilty.. can be compelled too fuck us ALL over once again.. by allowing sharia law in the ghetto's that have been over run?

 

when will America GROW THE FUCK UP! Mexico has Laws that Protect the Nations Identity.

 

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:35 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

Protectionism, Isolationism.. minding our own business in America!

is the first steps towards a peace that lasts until our once trading partners decide that they need what we have.. or one better until we decide we need what they have!

and we here in America have A LOT MORE TO LOSE! than any of the BRIC's!

what we need to do is give the Job Creators more Tax Breaks!

Less Government intrusion! Like CO2 emissions! let them put another 100 gigaton's a month into the atmosphere!

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:25 | Link to Comment kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

WW3 will be over who gets to control the next ponzi scheme.  Whoever controls the US military has a let up.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:55 | Link to Comment RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Debt is extinguished in death.   How does that directly aid in collecting current debt?   I can see how the MIC gains an advantage.   Does that offset the losses in common debt like mortgages and consumer debt?  Could be be in such a position where war does not benefit TPTB?   It's worth a thought.   This time may actually be somewhat different?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment SamAdams1234
SamAdams1234's picture

It has not always been that way. The most recent debt" jubilee was 1789 with a guillotine. Granted it lasted little more than a lifetime before they forgot, but it did eliminate aristocratic debts.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:08 | Link to Comment LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"This leads to a widening condition where the fruits of productive “growth” devoted to interest payments increase until those fruits are entirely consumed."

 

In orther words, the destruction of what could otherwise have been productive capital or paper.   No matter what that ivory towered idiot Krugman says, there is a real cost for creating capital.  always best to leave a poker game that you know is rigged before the shooting starts.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:12 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

And, at its fundamental, the game was ALWAYS rigged.  Perpetual growth on a finite planet was never going to work.

That "real cost" is physical resources.  Does anyone really think that if the world wasn't in a resoruce bind that any of this would be happening?  Fighting starts when people aren't happy, when people are unable to obtain things (first it starts because of non-essentials, then it moves to the essentials [food, shelter and water]).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:23 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Are you fucking kidding me, someone disagreed that there's a real cost to physical resources, and that the world is physically finite?  Or, that wars occur over resources?

You prove my point that humans WON'T evolve!  Junk and run.  Can't debate.  Paid troll?  Unicorn believer?  Darwin Award for you!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:35 | Link to Comment weinerdog43
weinerdog43's picture

Ha ha.  Rick Perry didn't like your comment.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:49 | Link to Comment topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

No

It is just that hedgies see you are thin skinned and just slamming ya for the pure joy of it now.

No one disagrees with you. Ponzis always last until constrained by something.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 21:46 | Link to Comment MarcusLCrassus
MarcusLCrassus's picture

Pretty much.  To paraphrase my old PolySci prof, "when the pie is still getting bigger, everyone's happy.  But when the pie stops growing, and especially when the pie is shrinking- that is when you start seeing the serious class warfare.  That's when things get contentious." 

 

And as we all see, right now the pie is shrinking. 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:07 | Link to Comment monopoly
monopoly's picture

I agree with this article but still want to see the thieves and scum that destroyed our capitalist system incarcerated. But that will never happen. At some point we will move on, if the country is still intact.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:22 | Link to Comment nevadan
nevadan's picture

Agree.  Forgiveness needs to be balanced with punishment.  Financial "engineers" should not be allowed to pick up where they left off only to repeat the cycle again.  Banish the current crop of bankers from ever participating in investment again after the pain of some penalties.  To be sure, a large part of the political class also need to be included here.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:42 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

ANTISEMITE!!!!!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:49 | Link to Comment nevadan
nevadan's picture

Let the chips fall where they may... 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:54 | Link to Comment chunga
chunga's picture

I think there has been a major shift in the minds of many that will not change any time soon. Going forward people will NEVER borrow money whether they are able to or not. The financial engineers you speak of have devised a way of making more profit on a non-performing loan. We know they've done it, but with the utter lack of transparency, we're not quite sure how. The end result is always the same. The losses get stuffed to the taxpayers and the profits go to a select few.

It makes me sick that my mailbox bulges with pre-approved credit cards every day. Fuck them. We buy nothing we don't absolutely require.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:31 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Trust/pay attention to what you write!

There's a big disconnect between the statement that people won't use the banks and the banks continuing to profit.

No new real wealth is being generated (I'd say that in total it'll never again be), so in this case it's all illusion.

Bad systems don't perpetuate.  I argue this point with all the haters of socialism/communism, that if it's such a bad system(s) then how in the hell can it/they perpetuate?  The Soviet Union collapsed because it sucked, because it was a shitty system; Reagan lovers will bestow the miracle of their collapse on Reagan, but it was a certainty that the miserable system would not only NOT spread, but that it itself would die in the land of Russia.  THE POINT is this: the banking system is totally fucked up, therefore it cannot perpetuate (it may seem like it, but it WILL die, because it's BAD, because BIG=FAIL).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 18:41 | Link to Comment Kali
Kali's picture

In the words of the loveable cattbutthead (where has he been?)-  I ain't buying nothing! (except phyzz,of course)

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:05 | Link to Comment Willzyx
Willzyx's picture

Call it America's Cultural Revolution in the 21st centruy.  Mao had the right idea.  Send the bankers, lawyers, and politicians out to the fields, or to break rocks and dig holes

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:50 | Link to Comment karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

Build the walls then as that's the only way you will build a big enough prison to hold all the sheep.

The banks didn't loan to the sheep at gunpoint nor cause them to spend wildly

 

You wish to jail yourself , then go ahead.

 

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:08 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

I'd further add that it's primarily the "wealthy" first-world countries that have messed up, and that by defaulting it'll really be the third-world countries that pay the price.

Sorry, but it's OUR bone to swallow.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:16 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

Uh, actually the third world has been a bunch of debt slaves since the 1970's. Many sub-saharan african nations have repaid the principle of their 1970's-60's debt MANY times over and now owe a larger nominal amount than they began with so your argument is fallacious. Unless you mean the rare creditor nations in the East which are somewhat hard to call 3rd world at this point.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:21 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

70% of the worlds population lives on $2 or less a day.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:34 | Link to Comment optimator
optimator's picture

The problem is population.  Are you aware that every thirty-two seconds a woman in Africa gives birth to an illegitimate child.  As I see it there is a simple solution.  We have to find that woman!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:43 | Link to Comment trav7777
trav7777's picture

huh?  All the hollywood movies I see about Africa always feature the strong african male who has a nuclear family and fights to take care of them.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:52 | Link to Comment karzai_luver
karzai_luver's picture

I don't know that damn Tarzan seemed to have a bunch of babes.

Was there ever a joo tarzan or a dusky one?

 

Maybe a black face Tarzan would be a blockbuster now.

 

Hmmmmmmmm, would you be available?

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:44 | Link to Comment Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

Are you saying that Hollywood has it wrong?  What next?  Hollywood as merely social engineers pushing the shadowy agenda of a small minority that hold the vast majority of Americans in utter contempt?

Wow, where the hell did that come from?  I can't play with you anymore, Trav.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:05 | Link to Comment GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"Are you aware that every thirty-two seconds a woman in Africa gives birth to an illegitimate child."

Seems legit. Was that stat issued with a Papal seal of approval?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:40 | Link to Comment Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I suspect that that African baby lives on $2 a day and is not the real problem.  But over-sexed, fertile Africans certainly can put the fear of G-d into people.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 16:59 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

White, Jewish and Asian men in the US/Europe/Asia consume FAR more resources than entire VILLAGES of Africans. That bullshit eugenical argument is just that bullshit. If you want a poster child of resource use, which is the REAL issue, instead of a black woman nursing a babe it would be an old nut sack complete with grey hairs. The problem is resource use and coincidently education.

Funny thing, when African WOMEN are educated there is immediate increases in savings and REDUCTION in birth rate. It's the men running around impregnating the women due to patriarchal imported Muslim and occasionally Christian cultural programming that is causing the birth rate.

African women have responsibility sure, but when you live under a brutal patriarchal system where there is genital mutilation and your lucky to have $2 to spend how are you gonna afford a pack of female condoms? Sure as fuck the men are going to start wearing them.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:41 | Link to Comment reader2010
reader2010's picture

But you used to be able to buy a half barrel of oil with $2. 

Tue, 11/29/2011 - 17:25 | Link to Comment Willzyx
Willzyx's picture

But stuff in the 3rd world is cheap.  I assume most of that $2 goes to food.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:42 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Literal interps... sorry...

Third-world has been plundered.  And, I don't think that there are many here that would defend it, the IMF's sole purpose is the saddle resource-rich countries with impossible debt in order to pry resources away from them.

Debt is real, and ultimately comes down to physical resources.  Measuring in fiat misses the big picture.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:09 | Link to Comment BlackSea
BlackSea's picture

The current system will not allow debt forgiveness as it would annihilate the banking system. Rather, debt will be bought at par with freshly issued dollars, as the purchasing value of the dollar plunges.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:10 | Link to Comment MichaelG
MichaelG's picture

"avoid criminal prosecution by agreeing to be part of debt forgiveness."

Can we not impose it on them and then prosecute them anyway?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:11 | Link to Comment Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

fucking hell,

these guest-posts are getting worse...

 

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:45 | Link to Comment stirners_ghost
stirners_ghost's picture

I like Charles' much better when he's breaking down figures. Lately, he's light on analysis and heavy on value judgements and imperatives for fixing the world.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:44 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

I agree with the caution to do more assessing and less casting of judgement and offering of "fixes."

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:12 | Link to Comment DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Jubilee...  I now am seeing that word again.  Biblical, maybe Obama will start using it, hmm...  "Fairness".

Coming to a creditor near you soon!  Prepare accordingly.

Unless it is hyperinflation.  Which would be my guess.  Or a combination of both.

Either way, you will do fine with physical gold.

SJGR!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:22 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

At least until they make that illegal for the peasantry.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 15:03 | Link to Comment JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

 

 

http://www.openfilm.com/videos/psywar

 

http://metanoia-films.org/index.php

 

Spread the word.. compliments of CD! for the betterment of us ALL!

ALL Credit to CD! and my Sincere Thanks!

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:14 | Link to Comment Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

There was once a time when criminal bankers were dragged out of their offices by angry mobs and hung in the street.

Ah, glory days....

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:46 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Yet, here we once again find ourselves.  Rinse and repeat, until evolution scores us FAIL.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:16 | Link to Comment vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

OR....When the entire system is FRAUD, the GREAT RESET is the last and only remedy.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:28 | Link to Comment JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

+560 trillion

 

...or should i say -560 trillion?

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:25 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

People still assume 'something went wrong', and now theyre 'trying various extraordinary tactics' to 'fix things'. Nothing could be further from the truth, the whole plan was 3rd worlding of the US Corporation to the point the only solution is a 1 world govt and 1 currency, ruled by bankers.

This is all pie in the sky 'debt forgiveness' my ass, that is not the goal and will never happen.

The peasantry will never have debt forgiven, and the central bankster TBTF cabal will never take a loss. That is the only reality here.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:28 | Link to Comment Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

I actually think a global jubilee might be offerred in exchange for one world government. Afterall, the vast majority have no other assets and would get back into debt the day after the Jubilee. God I hope they offer that, if not then there is literally no buy in for anyone but the global eltie.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:32 | Link to Comment SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Not before all commoners wealth is removed first.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 14:54 | Link to Comment Seer
Seer's picture

Again, I have to ask HOW, given that bad systems cannot perpetuate, that a one-world-government could materialize?

I'm not arguing FOR a one-world-government.  I don't like any such idea!  It's just that I see way too much energy going toward a SKY'S FALLING premise, one that I see as not very probable (despite being desired by TPTB) due to insufficient resources.  On one hand folks here understand that govt and bureaucracies are inefficient, meaning that they can't sustain over the long-haul, yet, people get worked up about it happening.

From an energy perspective (meaning one based in the logical real world) please describe how you see a one-world-government happening.  NOTE: there are attempts, to be sure, but do not confuse them as being successes (WTO, IMF, NATO etc).

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 23:17 | Link to Comment Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Check out HG Wells, "World Set Free."  I was a die-hard mercantilist, anti one-worlder before I ran across that little gem.

Still am, in most ways, but HG makes a compelling argument for NWO in the narrative.  Much like Huxley's Brave New World, there are some things that a rebellious and independant spirit might take as grounds for righteous indignation, but on the whole, that world would really not be so bad to live in.  Maybe we need a little Harrison Bergeron, as well- so that there is a safety valve that allows the cream to rise without flagellating themselves on the feelies.

WTF are you all wanting, anyhow?  Seems like a lot of folks just want to watch shit burn.  If I can work in relative peace, and find value in my personal relationships and daily life, I could care less what flag is flying.  My only objection to NWO is a scenario in which we are all feudal serfs sharecropping in mud huts, and the lord of the realm can come mount my wife whenever he takes a fancy to her.

If they leave me the hell alone, the "government" can be whoever and wherever it wants to be.  As long as they're doing a whole lot of nothing but banging their chests and bellowing about being leaders, I've got no problem with it.  Just stop the idiotic wars and currency battles.  Let everyone eat and raise their kids, and it's all fine.

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:22 | Link to Comment outhouse
outhouse's picture

For the whole and nothing but the whole . . . skinny on debt and debt forgiveness, watch this fascinating video "DebtOcracy"

http://www.debtocracy.gr/indexen.html

Thu, 09/01/2011 - 13:24 | Link to Comment LynRobison
LynRobison's picture

Here's how debt forgiveness will ultimately work. The monetary system will collapse, the dollar will be worthless, and the entities who hold dollar-denominated debt will die. 

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!