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Guest Post: Getting Off The Globalist Chess Board: Safe Haven Relocation

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Brandon Smith from Alt-Market

Getting Off The Globalist Chess Board: Safe Haven Relocation

By Brandon Smith & Stewart Rhodes

Special Note: This is the second part in our ‘Getting Off The Globalist Chessboard’ series.   Go here to read Part I. Also go to Operation Sleeping Giant for more information , and, be sure to check out our recently launched Safe Haven State Project (page still under construction).

As we noted in part one of this series:

“To put it simply, America is nearing a checkmate scenario.  Like the final torrid maneuvers of a rigged chess match, we have been pressed, manipulated, and attacked into the last remaining corner of the “grand global chessboard” left to us; centralized control of all social and economic power into the hands of an unworthy elite.  If we continue playing the game by their rules, we will lose.  There is no doubt.  There have been many solutions presented to us in the past to combat this development, but nearly all of them function within the constraints of Federal politics.  Working within the system has earned us no quarter, and frankly, no results.  Our only recourse (and, frankly, the best recourse all along) is to STOP relying on the rules of their game, and to walk away from the chess board completely...”

Ideally, it would be grand if enough Americans across this nation would decouple from the fraudulent fiat system so that they and their communities could be sufficiently strong, independent, and resilient enough to weather the coming storm and walk out the other side free.  Whatever our individual circumstances, wherever we are, we should work toward that goal; decentralized and sovereign – starting with ourselves, then working outward to galvanize and steel our families, our close friends and distant relatives, our neighborhoods, towns, counties, and then, of course, our states.

Through this effort, we greatly improve our own chances, and equally important, the chances of our communities and our country.   It is not only for us to save ourselves, but also to restore our Republic, from the ground up.

We also need to face the reality that an economic collapse is very likely to come before such a renaissance of preparedness will see the light of day. We must accept that in many parts of modern day America, we will not be able to wake up enough people in time to prevent a U.S. version of what we now see in the riots of England, as well as what we saw here in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, but on a national scale – unprepared people who are desperate and scared, or those who are willing to take advantage of the situation to loot, rob, rape, assault, and even kill their fellow citizens.

Some might say that in times like these, uncertainty reigns supreme. However, for those of us in the Liberty Movement, who have spent years carefully tracking the negative progressions of our economy, our government, and our culture, the future is disturbingly clear. We’ve all noticed the turning of the tide, in financial sectors, in political attitudes, in social interaction, in law and law enforcement; our country is, indeed, eroding before our very eyes. It is degrading into something unrecognizable; something monstrous. The pace has quickened, especially in 2011, and those who have chosen to “wait out” the storm in the hopes of a comprehensive top down solution are becoming more and more disappointed and disenchanted.

This is not to say that astounding strides have not been made. The Liberty Movement has an incredibly strong and decisive presence on the internet and in our society today, something that we could not boast three years ago. Efforts to educate the public on globalism, central banking, and economic collapse have brought substantial results that are visible now even in the so called mainstream. However, root problems of centralization and fiscal instability remain. These problems will never be undone unless we are first honest with ourselves.

The painful reality is that right now the general populace is urbanized, collectivized, and addicted to the speed and ease of technological amenities to the point that many cannot live without them. This simply will not do.

It is historically evident that in every modern economic collapse, city dependent cultures are far less resilient than farming cultures.  During the hyperinflationary crisis of 1920s Wiemar Germany, Austria, and Hungary, those tied to city life, indeed, went hungry, while those in the country had food. In fact, with extreme currency devaluation, farmers no longer had any incentive to trade food for worthless fiat money, and thus stopped supplying large population centers altogether. Though just as “poor” as any city dweller, farmers were able to live on their own produce and labor, and began bartering with their rural neighbors.  People trapped in the dregs of metropolitan dependency did not have that option, and desperately hocked grand pianos and the family silver for mere sacks of potatoes.  This has happened over and over again, with Argentina being the most recent example of a sophisticated modern nation suffering hunger in its cities during hyperinflation.

America is truly on a similar path, and the outcome will undoubtedly be the same…

While awareness is growing, a primary focus or framework for activism is still elusive. The movement seems to be pulling itself in too many directions at once in search of answers, and without a foundation for proactive measures. Many participants and activists feel isolated from one another, or even surrounded by less prepared swaths of the American public. Organization is limited primarily to interactions on the web, and face to face cooperation is rare. If a full spectrum economic collapse were to occur today, or even a moderate breakdown, we would NOT be ready for the panic that would follow. This is the bottom line which we must acknowledge if we are to finally move forward.

Political and legal recourse has so far failed to produce tangible results, and is unlikely to do so before a serious crisis unfolds. So the question is; what solutions are left to us?

At Alt-Market and Oath Keepers, we believe that the best solutions are those which can be implemented by each individual American without reliance on legislators, bureaucracy, or political solutions alone. While we do encourage people to take back their towns, counties, and state governments, kicking out the corrupt oath breakers and replacing them with solid liberty advocates, we must also work outside the political sphere, taking personal responsibility to strengthen ourselves and our communities by private action and free association.

The Founders never intended that we simply sit around and wait for “officials” to save us. We must work both in the public and in the private arenas. We certainly don’t have time to wait for lawmakers to find their sanity or their honor, and so, in many respects we must walk away from the rigged game entirely, and take matters into our own hands. This means first and foremost decoupling from the broken mainstream financial system, and building networks for Alternative Markets as well as for mutual defense in the event of disaster.

First steps towards this end include relocating away from areas with a high potential for danger. Of course, in any region, prepping with food storage, survival gear, and a personal garden is essential. Ideally, your neighbors should also be aware, prepared, and already involved in food production and barter. You should strive to build such robust community wherever you are (even if in the city), but country settings definitely offer greater opportunity. Rule #1: Go where the food is! Regardless of the state you live in, get out of the city and into a rural area.

Next, a community’s proximity to urban environments must be considered. Many rural retreats are still vulnerable to being flooded by unprepared city dwellers in search of food at the onset of collapse.  James Wesley, Rawles, of Survival Blog, refers to this as the “Golden Hoard”, and advocates living at least one tank of gas distance from major metropolitan areas. 

Just as there are better places to live in each state, there are also better states to live in; what we call “Safe Havens.”  Rural states with low population, abundant water, plentiful game, natural resources, fertile farmland, and defensible terrain, along with a relatively self reliant population, can rightly be considered safe haven states. These states will fare better than others in adapting and overcoming in the face of any crisis.

Many fantastic efforts have been launched over the past decade which follow this concept. One is the Free State Project, which eventually selected New Hampshire, and another is the Wyoming Free State Project, which was started by Free State Project participants who opted out of East Coast relocation. There was also the Montana Alliance for Liberty, started by folks who likewise declined to consider New Hampshire. I (Stewart Rhodes) was also in the Free State Project but likewise opted out of the East Coast states and moved to Montana in 2005. And now Alt-Market’s Brandon Smith is moving to Montana. In the past year Pastor Chuck Baldwin, the 2008 Constitution Party presidential candidate, along with his son Timothy Baldwin and their families, have moved to Montana, with the same goals in mind. In response to Pastor Baldwin’s effective championing of Montana, many others have followed him by moving there. Most recently, influential survivalist author James Wesley, Rawles has promoted the concept of the Northern Rocky Mountain U.S. (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, eastern Oregon, and eastern Washington) as being the “American Redoubt” – a refuge in time of coming trouble, and likewise has renewed interest in relocation to that region.

All of the above projects provide a solid framework for those seeking refuge amongst like-minded people. Our goal is to learn from, provide support for, and build onto these existing projects until full fledged large scale liberty minded communities become a reality. While some people might feel perfectly comfortable in their current location, or have an existing community to work with, many other Americans out there do not.

The Safe Haven State Project ( is designed around helping those people to relocate to counties or cities within states that have elements of protection and survival not readily available in other places. Here are some of the finer points of this project:

1) Safe Havens will be organized and promoted through the networking capabilities of Coordinators will be made available who already live in safe haven areas that will help you with information on the region, housing availability, job availability, etc.

2) Initially, the project will focus only on a few areas of a few states. For now, our efforts will be centered on Western Montana (where we both reside). As more people in states suited to the project volunteer to help with coordination, greater numbers of safe haven areas will become available. And, of course, if anyone is interested in Wyoming, we will send them to the good folks at the Wyoming Free State Project.

3) The core purpose of Safe Havens will not be to build voting blocks, or to effect change through legislation, though those methods will be taken under consideration. Instead, Safe Havens are almost entirely about community building. This means that our area of networking will be tight (within a few counties, instead of spread out across the entire state). People relocating should be within easy driving distance of each other, so that barter networks can be constructed and mutual defense is made practical. Eventually, a few counties could turn into a dozen, and a dozen could turn into a full state, depending on the circumstances.

4) Safe Havens are meant to consist of a large number of people, with a diverse membership, living in relative proximity. Safe Havens are NOT compounds, communes, or any other such nonsense that requires too many people in too small an area with too many rules. A Safe Haven will not be dictated or micromanaged through pyramid structures, military hierarchy, or “community tribunals”. It is a designated area of free cooperation, not a creepy village of collectivists ruled by herd mentality. White robes and funny tasting Kool-Aid will not be made available…

5) Barter markets will become a foremost concern. A community entirely dependent on the mainstream financial system cannot be realistically considered a safe haven. Therefore, active organization of barter and trade will be ongoing. This trade will include goods and services, anchored by silver and gold (and perhaps copper) as a common currency. A weekly or bi-weekly marketplace will eventually be arranged (think “market bazaar” or farmers market).

6) Meet-ups will be a common occurrence in order to maintain market stability as well as to create opportunities for building relationships. The method of these meet-ups will likely vary.

7) Volunteer coordinators will help relocators to the best of their ability, however, the Safe Haven Project is not an employer or a nanny, and cannot provide guaranteed employment or housing. We are here to make your move smoother, and to introduce you to the area as well as other participants, but there will be no hand-holding.

8) Sincere commitment is essential. Our limited number of coordinators restricts our ability to help people who are not serious about relocating. Now is not the time for wishy-washiness…

9) There are certainly many arguments (usually erroneous) against the idea of community building. Most of these have been covered and refuted in great detail in the following article:

The combined establishment of Safe Haven States, along with alternative markets and barter networking capability, could be a powerful step forward for the Liberty Movement that would attract many free minded Americans and inspire coherent working communities based on Constitutional principles and the support of individualism, not to mention non-coercive, truly free cooperation. This would provide not only the foundation for mutual defense, but also insulated, localized economies, shielded from financial chaos. The positives are many. The negatives are few. And, most people are tired of waiting around for someone else to solve their problems for them. Safe Haven Projects give activists an environment in which they can take legitimate steps towards determining their own destinies, as well as an opportunity to meet many others who are pursuing the same end, building a better country from the ground up, with their own two hands.


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Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:05 | 1590551 malikai
malikai's picture

Off topic, but WTF just happened in crude?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:17 | 1590589 hambone
hambone's picture

Down...QE3 loves me not...Up...QE3 loves me...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:18 | 1590889 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

Nonsense! Crude is down because the market is FINALLY pricing in our congress' pledge to reduce American dependence on foreign oil. This will be ahieved under the wise guidance of the department of energy. The rally we just had was a result of market fears that crazies like ron paul were going to end that very department and sabbotage these efforts.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:45 | 1591026 SMG
SMG's picture

Welcome back Hamy/Harry Wanger.  Did you have a nice vacation?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:01 | 1591144 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

Brent is at $109/bbl  - that's "down?"

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 18:40 | 1592483 Chupacabra
Chupacabra's picture

This troll has some potential, but for now I reserve judgment.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 18:40 | 1592484 Chupacabra
Chupacabra's picture

This troll has some potential, but for now I reserve judgment.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:28 | 1590633 Long-John-Silver
Long-John-Silver's picture

New Libyan Constitution will be based on Shari Law. Oil will now be used as a weapon of economic destruction of the West.

In the meantime Obama uses the EPA for the continued destruction of domestic energy production. The USA is being placed between the Anvil and hammer.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:55 | 1590785 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Does Sharia law even matter to you? It shouldn't unless Bill O'Reilly tells you it should.

Oil has not and will not be used as a "weapon of economic destruction." Of course OPEC will tighten the screws and raise prices, but only because the dollar is debased. If they really wanted to screw us, they would start trading it in gold. I really wouldn't blame them either.

Yeah, the EPA really protected Americans from all the corexit dumped on the Gulf last year. I really think they have our best green interests at heart.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:09 | 1590819 malikai
malikai's picture

Where's your son at? We're really missing him these days. I'm in desperate need of my favourite dumb money indicator. Also, I promise not to beat him up any more.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:40 | 1590996 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

He's actually starting his second sophomore year of HS. He got held back last year. The school counselor labeled him as "functionally retarded."

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:58 | 1590808 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Ask yerself WHY did WE help the rebels overthrow Gadafffyduck, to replace him with a wad of turds, that are HELL BENT on taking over not only the world, but us as well.

WHY isn't anyone asking these questions?.Can't be OIL,Gadaffy at least sold it to us,these radical Sharia murdering bstds will likely NOT.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:34 | 1590668 persu
persu's picture

I wrote yesterday....S&P500 low 666, S&P500 drop 6.66%, BAC close 6.66. All just a co-incidence?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:50 | 1590759 Votewithabullet
Votewithabullet's picture

No brother this is no coinkydink, satan is ready to make his grand entrance but he's sending his proxy the talking serpent. By all means if you see a talking snake with the face of glen beck cut the head off that motherfucker.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:12 | 1590865 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Not a  fan of Beck, but whatever you think of him, he called a lot of shots before they happened.And he taught more Americans via the historical programs their heritage than ANY other MSM programs you ever saw, or will.

The truth will set you free.So,he's a Mormon, so what.....his business,I ain't(to use a colloquialism) a LDS.

One thing they do, is take care of family,believe in being prepared,live clean,decent lives,contribute to society,( As do that subversive group called the BOY SCOUTS), and they love this country.

Why is he a MF?,what did he do so bad, that could compare to what we have lauding power over us now.

Your seriously off base about most of your attack.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:47 | 1591042 tamboo
tamboo's picture

not to mention that beanie he wears when he visits israhell.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:54 | 1591085 Votewithabullet
Votewithabullet's picture

I personally saw beck on his fox show say that the"japanese may have avoided fukushima if they had a better relationship with god". He didnt same the same for the joplin disaster. maybe if the people in the bible belt.....

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:58 | 1591109 Woodyg
Woodyg's picture

Mormons also have No Problem defrauding non-mormons And marrying the daughters of 18 of their buddies and then surviving on Food Stamps.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:07 | 1590852 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

Chief agree with Tyler. Relocate to rural area with land, food, water.

Chief specialize in selling land like this:

Call Chief.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:10 | 1591626 Gymno
Gymno's picture

Gee Chief....take a look at the masses living across the street....not an ideal retreat....looks more like a large parcel of land in an urban area...



Wed, 08/24/2011 - 11:36 | 1595281 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

Not true. The development next door is 1/2 acre lots with average homes. I would urge you to check the demographics of Lee County GA. Around 30,000 people... IN THE ENTIRE COUNTY!

There are also smaller more rural tracts available.

Eat your peas!

I am The Chief

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 11:41 | 1595299 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Until Stewart Rhodes and Oathkeepers help Charles Dyer, AKA July4Patriot, escape from federal tyranny and being incarcerated or killed for trumped up charges he can STFU.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:08 | 1590559 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

You know the govt is just waiting to infiltrate these groups and brand them domestic terrorists...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:09 | 1590564 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

If things keep going the way they are going, if they try to do this, they are going to run out of FBI agents real fast.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:12 | 1590575 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

FBI agents can be useful converts.  :)

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:28 | 1590579 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

They (we've) already been branded as Terrorists. I've been told that there would come a day in which  "They will call that which is evil good and that which is good evil". That day is here. Sticks and stones, Bitchez.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:11 | 1590571 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

Bingo.  Safe havens cannot be safe unless they are also stealth havens.  At least in the near term.  Smart "clans" know to keep stuff off of electronic media.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:21 | 1590609 trav7777
trav7777's picture

The cities are the place to be because that is where the political power lies.

The rural areas lack the votes to even keep the food they grow.

ANYONE who says to retreat to a rural area because there is food there is a fool.  They think food magically grows itself in the absence of petrochemical agriculture?  In Argentina's collapse the lights stayed on in the city, police services stayed in the city.  These things were often nonexistent in rural areas because those people lack votes and power.

The notion that city dwellers are going to roam the countryside looking for food...where does this stupid shit come from?  I am tired of idiotic articles like this from TD day in and day out from morons thinking we collapse to MadMax and everything just goes to shit and you can hide in a bunker somewhere with a bunch of canned ham.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:34 | 1590664 Waffen
Waffen's picture

This wont be limited to one area, it will be nation no, world wide. Food doesnt grow itself, no one will be bailing us out.


The cities may do ok at first, but someone has to grow the food and import it, when governments try to take farms by force you end up with Zimbabwe, where the takers dont know wtf they are doing and the food dries up.

This isnt mad max but it wont be 1930's deppression, it will be somewhere in between and its going to be very fucked up.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:55 | 1591558 toady
toady's picture

Major cities will NOT do well, especially 'at first'

Any place with over 500k will be a cesspool in a week. Hell, most of them already are.

Stop trucking food in and trucking out garbage, then wait. Riots in 12 hours, overrun hospitals in 18, exodus in 48.

Cities around 30k, where people actually know their neighbors, and are not just a suburb of a dying inner city, may do OK.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:34 | 1590667 malikai
malikai's picture

Are you saying you don't like canned ham?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:24 | 1590910 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

No canned hams!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:29 | 1590934 malikai
malikai's picture

lol. Sorry, didn't meat to offend. :)

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:41 | 1590680 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

food not only grows itself "magically" without "petrochemicals" it grows with more nutrition and calorie returned on investment. The only difference is human labor, knowlege and scale. But as you know, oil (which is quickly running down) has replaced that labor. Oil has also replaced our common knowlege of these basic skills of survival. We will definitely have to produce food within and around our cities but we will also be producing our food within a short delivery range and on much smaller local scales without petrochemicals because we will have no other choice. For thousands of years, we have produced food by emulating nature. Only recently have we turned to raping it. That is all about to change. And whether we do that in "the city" or "the country," the necessity is the same.  And the sooner we re-educate these skills and reallocate these resources, the less Max will come calling.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:05 | 1590844 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

+10 at least, Davey.  Too many people think we care about "not having enough votes to keep our food" -- really?  You think we care what a dysfunctional government and people vote?  We just sell it to dumb city dwellers when we don't need as much as we make, and you can pay too much for it, else we keep it ourselves. And then we'll let you keep your exported garbage and pollution in the bargain.

And, contrary to popular belief, for most of mankind's recorded history, women were able to have babies without comprehensive health care in hospitals, and we were growing food right along and getting plenty without all that crap.  Many of us have retained or regained the arcane knowledge it takes to be able to do without quite a lot of modern "necessity".  Some even know how to make cost effective use of horses (not hobby horse farmers).  We know how to farm, how to shoot, how to make ammo, even make the guns (I'm a gunsmith along with the rest and I don't sell them cheap either).  The Amish won't even notice much if our vaunted civilization completely bites the dust.

And we know how to stay under the radar.  It'd be pretty stupid to have big public meetings, bylaws, advertise our readiness when so many aren't and won't be, and we're not stupid.  No hate-shouting knuckle draggers in camo for us -- not the point.  Neigbors might discuss or barter over coffee now and then, and know who to trust and work with later, is all.  It'd be hard even for the PTB to stretch just being ready for bad times into terrorism, though they'll probably make the attempt if they get a slow news day.

We don't give the government even the credit of talking against them.  We just ignore them.  Fitting thing to do with idiots -- just let them go their own way to their own fate.

It's good for us if people like Trav stay in their putrid cities.  We might be willing to feed and help the smart ones - most of us are ready for more than just our own support needs, but the rest are just a waste of effort or maybe ammo.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 16:52 | 1591617 toady
toady's picture

I've been working an angle with some friends where we may feed some of the city rubes as long as they agree to leave the area.

Of course, you can't just come out and tell them that.

'there is more 20 miles that way (away from our location). Obama just announced it was flown in over night. This PB&J should get you there if you start walking now'.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:39 | 1590692 Koffieshop
Koffieshop's picture

"The notion that city dwellers are going to roam the countryside looking for food...where does this stupid shit come from?"

Exactly this happened here in NL at the end of WW2.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:40 | 1590997 trav7777
trav7777's picture

uh...that famine was as a result of a German blockade.

if the oil "runs out" you're gonna need more than a fuckin garden.  everybody is going to need 5+ acres.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:22 | 1591218 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

not true with year round (Eliot Coleman) and permaculture (Gai's Garden et al) techniques. You're thinking in "modern" non-productive terms. Diversity can be produced in small communities then bartered and traded around. Beyond survival, not only a way out and around of the courupt criminal inflated fiat system but peak energy and peak debt forces us down to small community scale. There are many sites devoted to a quickly growing urban agriculutre community. The City of Detroit is about to set aside 30,000 acres that is otherwise sitting idle. Hell most of Detroit is sitting idle. But before Henry Ford starting assembling, that greater area was some of the most fertile land around. Our american cars may be worthless but the land they are built on may return as our most vital resource. 

have you ever grown food or studied techniques? 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:09 | 1591237 Koffieshop
Koffieshop's picture

What is your point?

What caused the shortages only loosely correlates to what desperate hungry people do.

Yes, if there is no oil, you need more labor and farmland per person.
With this in mind it is even more likely that city folk will resort to begging/theft/murder in the countryside.
In the best case scenario they will come with a "Will work for food" attitude.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 16:17 | 1591992 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

What caused the shortages only loosely correlates to what desperate hungry people do.

Wrong. The cause of shortage might determine what desperate hungry people are able to do.

It is pure madness (but sanity by US standard) to compare a warzone with what could happen in the US in case of societal collapse.

The German army was desesperate too. Their actions were different from what some other desesperate people did.

This army excluded other desperate people from achieving certain moves.

Once again, unsurprisingly, US citizens are acted by their paranoia. They focused on the irrelevant details to miss the bigger pictures.

Desesperate people act with different means. US citizens mania to focus on meaningless desesperate people is pathetic as it stretches so much commonly known reality.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 17:06 | 1592198 Koffieshop
Koffieshop's picture

If I understand correctly, the US southern border part and the big cities have a big gang problem. If law enforcement were to lose influence during a period of massive poverty, the gang wars could become civil wars. How those civil wars will play out is unpredictable.

But yeah, yeah the situation will be different everywhere. I'm just saying that trav7777's original comment is folly because it ignores historical precedent and unknown variables.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 02:06 | 1594011 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Wonderful how US citizens keep focusing on minor details, due to their paranoia, even when they are pointed their gross mistakes.

So they depict a situation of desperation for all and keep seeing who they want to see as desesperate.

The Police, the Law enforcement, the Military will be desesperate as the others. Removing them from the equation is only US citizenish, that is totally devoid of any actual ground.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 01:53 | 1593980 goldfish1
goldfish1's picture

You'd be surprised how much can be grown in a small organically composted raised bed.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:43 | 1590704 Henry Krinkle
Henry Krinkle's picture

Meh, it's a toss up, I say it's more about what the individual wants/desires and is capable of. From the peoples accounts in the cities of Argentina there will be different but just as many if not more problems in the cities. From what I remember they said to make your home a bunker (bars on windows, a fence/gate), the cops ain't coming, the power will be sporadic and carry heat all the time cause you're going to get robbed/mugged. Stuff is going to be scarce so have things of need to barter.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:45 | 1590730 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Well I don't know much about Argentina.  But I do know something about the former Yugoslavia and USSR.   I have many friends from Yugoslavia, and in their own words: "The people who had guns, lived in the country, and knew manual trades became the winners.  Those who spent their lives at a desk in the city, became the losers."

I also have many friends who were affected by the collapse of the ruble.  The 'datcha" (country home), became a prized asset. 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:06 | 1590846 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and when the shit hit the fan, people turned to their gardens.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:44 | 1591022 trav7777
trav7777's picture

lol...ever actually BEEN to yugoslavia?  Belgrade is still there, as are all the other cities.  Fuck, even Beirut is still there.

People who lived in the country got run off their property by advancing albanians and kosovars.  I know bosnian serbs who went from having all of this property you speak of to living in a car just due to the vagueries of war.

Putting a tent stake down is not a good idea...and if you want power and lights and protection from warlords for the most part, the city is where you end up - JUST LIKE IN THE THIRD WORLD NOW where things are already in many cases far enough gone to begin with that they look like MadMax to the average American.

I wonder wtf you guys do with your vacations if not travel and see places.  There are right now, today, a ton of areas where people are living in what you would consider madmax. 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:38 | 1591451 ATM
ATM's picture

Not sure what Yugoslavia has to do with the topic. That was a war not a currency melt down. What I expect is an implosion, not an explosion.

When this shit implodes the dollar will become even more worthless and people will simply stop accepting it as currency. That means that those who bank on being able to buy everything they need won't. And hungry people will strike out, like they always do in search of food.

Happened in Germany, Austria, Hungary, Argentina, Zimbabwe..... Rural peoples aren;t going to be forced off their land by invading Albanians or Costa Ricans. They will face danger from the roving bands just as they did in the Weimar but if I have to bet, I'll bet on the rural folk to hold their own and protect their shit because they are at least prepared and will have the advantage of defending rather than attacking.

I know it will take one large, fast and well armed group to get past the defensive positions 4 of us could take up on my easily defensible property. And I have to imagine that the hungry masses of looters will be looking not for a fight or a head full of lead but for easy pickings.

I love owning the high ground!

So go ahead and turn off the electricty. I can survive far longer without that than you can without food and once you keel over I will vote to turn my electricity back on.   

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:51 | 1590765 LoneStarHog
LoneStarHog's picture

Maybe if you READ and COMPREHENDED the article, you would not post such garbage. (No one is forcing you to read a damn thing) These are NOT compounds.  These are NOT bunkers with people hiding with food.  READ THE DAMN THING! I can assure you of one thing:  IF the worst comes to pass, it will be crap like you who will be demanding the SOCIALIZATION of people's preparations.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:26 | 1590835 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

edit: forgot the important part..

The new danger was that when the peasants finally refused to deliver produce to the towns, the towns would go and fetch it. It had happened in Austria during the blockade. It had happened in the Ruhr and the Rhineland under the provocation of French militarism and enforced idleness. Now there were reports from Saxony -unoccupied Germany — that bands of several hundred townspeople at a time had taken to riding out into the countryside on bicycles to confiscate what they needed.


"My uncle urged on the horse … In the lane which winds to my uncle's farm … we noticed a troop of about 80 or 100 men and and women. They were bawling and singing and driving in their midst a cart harnessed with a brown horse. Uncle exclaimed: 'They're driving away Hansl and our cart!' Without another word he leapt to the ground, but could only advance slowly with his stiff leg across the field towards the road where he meant to intercept the troop …

In the cart I saw three slaughtered pigs. In addition, some pieces of slaughtered cows and pigs and a few dead hens were lying in an untidy heap. 'My God, my God', wailed my aunt. 'What will things be like at home?' … Two gendarmes accompanied us in order to ascertain the damage. 'If only they didn't always destroy everything', said one of them. 'As for their being hungry, that's not surprising'. We were prepared for the worst. The gates of the farmyard were wide open. There was not a sign of the servant girls. A pig seriously injured but still living was lying in its own blood in the yard. The other pigs had run out into the road. The cow-shed was drenched in blood. One cow had been slaughtered where it stood and the meat torn from its bones. The monsters had slit up the udder of the finest milch cow, so that she had to be put out of her misery immediately. In the granary the store of grain and fodder were in a state of wild confusion … a rag soaked with petrol was still smouldering to show what these beasts had intended. In the kitchen-living room of which my aunt was so proud not a thing had been left whole. Uncle estimates the damage at 100,000 peace kronen, and no insurance company will pay him any compensation for his loss.
The towns were starving. The countryside had had a bumper harvest, but there it remained because of the farmers' steadfast refusal to take paper for it at any price. Something had to be done to shift it. On September 18 were published the plans for the new Boden Credit Bank, later to be known as the Rentenbank, a bank of issue backed not by gold (it was too late for that) but by mortgages on both agricultural land and industry. It was fundamentally an expedient to induce the farmers to co-operate in feeding the nation:"


When Money Dies

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 16:31 | 1592046 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Kid me not. So it means that urban city dwellers, when they are unable to keep their supply lines up, move where the resources are.

That is a piece of news. On this site, as people are mostly US citizens, they think citizens are going to stay on their place waiting to die from starvation.

Two lines possible:

-if the societal collapse is not advanced enough, cities will drain the resources needed to support themselves from their immediate periphery. They will pressure the outside to preserve themselves.

City dwellers: winners, rural areas dwellers: losers.

-if the societal collapse is advanced enough, citizens are going to invade the rural areas because it is where the resources they are used to living on are located.

City dwellers: winners, rural areas dwellers: losers.

And US citizens should not come with their cheaper than cheap propaganda of rural communauties. Rural communauties are wiped out in the last case scenario because the army and the police are city dwellers.

It is how it works.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 00:21 | 1593748 Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

One difference is, most were not expecting the Horde, we are.

If folks can drive from a city to your place and back on one tank of gas it is not rural, even if it looks rural.  

If you must be closer than a tank of gas to a city, try to have a river or other obstructions between you and the city.  More is better. 

How many roadblocks would it take to isolate your rural town?  How long can you spare the manpower to operate them 24/7 with a squad and two sniper teams each plus a central backup force?  It might be easier if a bridge or two just wasn't replaced the next time it washed out, due to lack of funds, of course.

There are lots of Army vets who live rural and have the training to remove infrastructure used to facilitate raids.  Some are local police now.  Local police departments in US can order pretty much whatever they want from the army these days.  Some of them are doing that, and have lots of "part time" or auxiliary officers. 

If your area can't be secured, and you have no close neighbors for mutual defense, and your farmstead requires an active defense, it is difficult to maintain that defense and active farming with less than eight trained people.  Dogs and geese can help, so can alarms, and few surprises built into the driveway could help also.  But an alert person needs to be on watch 24/7 in such times and two is better. 

  Most modern farmhouses are not large enough, or built with defense in mind.  Few build with concrete these days, but a farmhouse with foot thick concrete walls built to look antique colonial with flammables minimized(slate or metal shingles, masonry "clapboards", tile floors inside etc) might repel the first attack.  It would be nice if the shutters were steel and actually defended the windows when needed.

It is not easy or cheap, and there is much more, but it can be done in some places, given enough time, money and people.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 02:16 | 1594034 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

But what is that about? Another cheap piece of propaganda.

What a waste of resources US citizens are. None of their words bring something other than lies, gross distortion of reality, ever increasing denial etc.

Now it is about to declare war on urbanites? But in this case, urbanites will retaliate with acts of war.

But the perimeter to secure in rural areas are much larger. Roadblocks? To where? To fields? Etc...

And once for all, the Police, the Military are all city dwellers. The Police and the Military do not work the farms. They feed on people working on the farms.

Rationalizing that by they are local, they are military vets, is just that: rationalizing.

When admitted, the only question is to known for rural people: who are going to farm the rural people: the local police/military or the police/military coming from cities? Considering where the power is concentrated, well, the answer should be obvious. Well, not that much with US citizens, their denial capacity and their duplicity.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 21:55 | 1597823 Rhodin
Rhodin's picture

But what is that about? Another cheap piece of propaganda.

It is very simple.  I'm stating that rural defense is possible, on a community level and at the farmstead level, if the people and place are chosen carefully.  It is not cheap, it is not easy, it is not propaganda, and i'm not recruiting.

What a waste of resources US citizens are. None of their words bring something other than lies, gross distortion of reality, ever increasing denial etc.

You can generalise about 300 million US citizens, when you don't even live here?  Here. even neighboring rural towns are quite different.  Some are quite aware of the gathering storm, some feel uneasy and are dealing with some problems but miss the big picture, some think we are in a "rough patch" economically, that will clear up soon, others are almost totally oblivious.  The cities are another matter, some are collapsing allready, and it varies to those still relatively prosperous, civil and only mildy uneasy.

Now it is about to declare war on urbanites? But in this case, urbanites will retaliate with acts of war

No one i know is declaring war of any sort.  Most prefer to live in peace.  We are making contingency plans, official and otherwise, that emphasize keeping order and limiting access when necessary.  If those fail, and conflict arises, it is most likely urbanites who will initiate violence. 

But the perimeter to secure in rural areas are much larger. Roadblocks? To where? To fields? Etc...

Some places are defensible, many others are not.  It is "natural" to choose locations with that in mind.  For example, a mountain valley with one thru road,  or land between mountains and a river with few bridges.  For further defense consider the Swiss civil defense attitude and apply to your community.  Read their defense manuals, their home bunker requirements etc.  There is no reason a bunker can not look like a poorly repaired and disused barn quite close to the road, for example.  Even better if that is what was there originally.

And once for all, the Police, the Military are all city dwellers. The Police and the Military do not work the farms. They feed on people working on the farms.

Rationalizing that by they are local, they are military vets, is just that: rationalizing.

Yes, Military bases are small cities, if they get hungry (lose their supply chain) they will eventually "forage".  You probably don't wan't to be near (in patrol range of) one, if you don't want your supplies "requisitioned"!  The barrier defence i mentioned earlier as a possible alternate to distance from a city is unlikely to work with military bases.  If you have enough vets in your town they might be able to cut your town a deal with nearby military,  but my preference is to be elsewhere.

Yes, Police always operate at the expense of citizens.  Many police do this honestly, and actually work for the citizens, others do not.  Many cities and towns cannot afford police now and are reducing their police forces.  Some (like myself) prefer a solvent town government that can afford police, others prefer to take over that function as citizens (where this is permitted) when the town government fails.  I once lived in a town with a volunteer police force, and it worked OK.  State government no longer permits this here though.  So towns who abolish their police here will end up with county, or state police forces, with the problem you mention.

I'm suggesting operating your local rural police department so the officers are, in fact, the town citizen militia commanders.  Much like a sherriff's posse, but not ad hoc.  And if citizens get to vote on the police budjet, there will not be a disconnect.

When admitted, the only question is to known for rural people: who are going to farm the rural people: the local police/military or the police/military coming from cities? Considering where the power is concentrated, well, the answer should be obvious. Well, not that much with US citizens, their denial capacity and their duplicity.

If you and i are hiking and are attacked by a bear, i don't have to outrun the bear, i only have to outrun you!  IRL i would attack the bear, but my point is:  will a city force drive a long way to attack a well defended rural town, when there are many lesser or undefended towns closer?   Certianly not their first choice.  Perhaps, before it becomes their choice, civil order will be restored, if not, other measures will be in place.  'nuff said.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:07 | 1590851 linrom
linrom's picture

I couldn't agree more. I lived in South Florida for a long time and can attest that suburbanites were always on the bottom of any priority list post hurricane recovery. Power, food, water and security was ALWAYS first restored in densely populated areas. In fact, if you were stuck in the suburbs, you got nothing.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:31 | 1590942 Calculated_Risk
Calculated_Risk's picture

I've lived in said areas.. and you're pretty much used to not having reliable services. So, a disruption in power is nothing new. Can't say as much for a disruption in food supply to the city...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:50 | 1591060 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

Chief agree. That is the entire point. Urbanites = Dependant on Gov.

Rural folk = Independant

Come join the folk that can take care of their own needs;

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:59 | 1591129 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

That's because more of us don't need anything...we have fuel, generators, solar, batteries, gardens, stored food, water from a (gasp) well.  I sat here in '05 only mildly inconvenienced while my friends in the middle of the 3rd largest 'populated area' in the state lost their FUCKING minds over not having power for 5 days. None of them were prepared. They screamed about 5 day 'boil water' orders over a broken water line that affected 1/4 million people. I didn't skip a beat. I had power out this AM due to a lightning hit and didn't even bother to switch on the genset.  Coffee and eggs off the gas stove...the horror! Keep your urban-uber-crap-mindset.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:10 | 1591624 Jason_1sandal
Jason_1sandal's picture

Really....? The "burbs" are "rural" ?? The suburbs are where the pillage, plunder, rape and murder will be the most prolific. Rural as in country side with like farms and shit... you know, like little house on the prarie ?? Most of us are very self sufficient and have great relationships with our nearest neighbors. The cities or the "burbs" will be the last place I'd want to be.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:39 | 1590991 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

I am willing to place a bet that ol' Travie-Trav here didn't even read the article.  He's not a troll, but he IS trolling.


And, um, yeah...  Food DOES magically grow itself.  Are you really that stupid?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:34 | 1591735 trav7777
trav7777's picture

i'm looking in everyone's yard and I am not seeing any.

Perhaps you might wanna look up petrochem agro for a bit if you want to get a reality check.  Growing enough food to feed yourself without it is backbreaking work which requires dawn to dusk effort not just from you but from the kids as well.  This is why we have shit like daylight saving time still and why kids used to go out to work the farm with the dad at dawn.

It's time to get the fuck real, seriously.  If TSHTF like you misanthropes salivate for, you're going to die very quickly.  Luck is the only thing which helps in a catastrophe of that magnitude.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 19:37 | 1592642 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Usually you're tolerable, right now you sound like a classic Academic/Closet Progressive.  Before 100 years ago, in some areas less, the population of the US fed itself quite well on natural farming and limited mechanical means. Did they work harder than today? Surely. Didn't have a TV or iPod to drain the brain. Didn't have cheap 'petrochem'.  Can it be done again. Surely.  If TSHTF, there will be all types of casualties, mostly the unprepared and un-rich. How will close-knit rural communities fair? Far better than you and those less intelligent/unprepared. Me? Got what I need, along with my neighbors. Am I living in a bunker, no. It's quite comfortable and easily managed by 1-2 people and feeds 6-8; aquaculture, food forest, plenty of dried-in staples, and enough firepower and training to make it unpleasant to even attempt to take it over. Unless of course you have gunships, then the monkey goes guerilla. Stop shilling for TPTB and if you're that certain it will end horribly, kill yourself. One less to worry about...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:41 | 1591008 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

For starters, anyone who hasn't tried to grow a small garden should at least practice.  At worst, you have a little fresh food and enjoy a new hobby.  At best, you will be better prepared to grow something that might help you survive.

One tip:  I have learned that potatoes are extremely easy to grow and look like weeds to the casual city dweller (I mean roamer.) I have made many other observations, but i don't want ZH to become a gardening club.  Others will make meaningful discoveries, but only if they practice on their own.

Happy gardening, everyone!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:04 | 1591184 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Try sweet potatoes. Look like a weedy vine but even the leaves make a great salad. Dig out the bunches and just leave the smaller ones in the ground, they'll rekindle and grow again by themselves.  Take the vines and bury the intersection of a leaf under a couple inches of soil every few feet.  Each one will produce new tubers...Google Hugelkultur. Amazingly easy method of enriching and retaining moisture in even the worst soil. 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 17:23 | 1592263 Stares straight...
Stares straight ahead's picture

Thanks, I will!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:17 | 1591659 Sgt.Sausage
Sgt.Sausage's picture

==>They think food magically grows itself in the absence of petrochemical agriculture? 

While it doesn't magically grow - it certainly grows in the absence of your petrochemical soup.

I've got 9.2 acres of orchard, vinyard, and a garden bigger than the city block you live in that say otherwise. I can feed me, mine, and 10 or so of my closest friends, and my chickens, hogs, rabbits, and goats -  with *only*what grows in my back yard alone - without your "petrochemical agriculture." True, if I stepped up the chemicals, I could feed twice that, but I've got enough.

==> The notion that city dwellers are going to roam the countryside looking for food

Oh they'll try. They just won't make it very far. Out here in rural country, we likes our guns and we're veeeerrrry good with 'em.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:35 | 1591746 trav7777
trav7777's picture

I would bet a krugerrand that if we peeked under the covers of your stupid little farm, we'd see petrochem as far as the eye could see.  In the shit you run your tractors on, the shit you feed those animals, and in a million other places.  You're doomed.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 19:53 | 1592703 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

You first assclown! How about you get in touch with your inner nature and hug a tree? Preferably one that's future comes after the last syllable in 'Timber!'. Now you're just a predictable little shithead and if you can't at least come up better argument than ' a million other places' then you suck at what you attempt to do. Does oil touch nearly everything in existence today? Probably so; it's in plastic, chemicals, and food, it moves products, people, and things. Does it HAVE to? No. Just because you're so programmed that people can't exist without it doesn't mean that is other people's reality. People have, and will continue, to move away from a lot of the artificial crap that's produced today. Do I need to run naked in the desert and live in a yak skin tent because it'd prove to you I don't need oil. No. Fuck you shill. It means I use whatever I have around today, I just don't create a further need for it. I use new methods to bypass: Energy; sun, wood. Fertilizer; compost. Pesticides; predators, natural oils., etc. Because you're too ingrained in the system and too ignorant to plan your way out of it is your failing. Not only does the rampant crotch-rot that is the TPTB need to be excised, closed-minded douchebags like you would be a close second.  You, are doomed.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 17:27 | 1592275 Ausperity
Ausperity's picture

It's too bad that you lack the imagination to start a garden... I guess they don't tell you about that on TV anymore... Kinda sad, actually.  It is REALLY easy...


I hope your votes taste as good as your paper assets.  They are equal in terms of intrinsic and nutritional value.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 18:30 | 1592459 bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

be creative. no, midtown new york will have police. of course. think 1970's maybe worse. if you live in park slope and moved there when it started getting expensive post 1994, you have no clue what park slope used to look like, and how very close bed stuy and flatbush are to a whole series of now 'expensive' neighborhoods in the slope that the police cannot so easily protect. 


park slope used to be crap. literally dangerous and filled with many crackhouses. yes, that is dangerous. this won't hpapen overnight of course, but a few years is pretty quick too!

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 14:34 | 1596078 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Agreed, these kinds of articles are pretty boring. 

Now let's try logic.  We had a great depression.  Did people starve and riot everywhere, like some Hollywood-inspired nightmare?  We've also had  several currency devaluations and soverign defaults.  Again, other than isolated incidents, society didn't go ape shit.

What we are seeing today is tame historically.  Look at 1963.  We had Viet Nam, the Berlin Wall, the Cuban missle crisis and JFK was shot.  And the world wasn't nuked out of existance, and society survived.  What we have today seems remarkable only because the world has been very quiet for most of our lives.

Stop listening to internet gurus and religious leaders who just want to con you.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:22 | 1590614 Confused
Confused's picture

I hate to say it, but that same thought came to me while I was reading this.


A great idea, and certainly one that offers people an alternative to the system. And that in itself is enough of a reason for TPTB to stop something like this from happening.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:46 | 1590740 DosZap
DosZap's picture

They already have, dhsbigMomma, has put out a WATCH LIST for anyone buying food supplies,and gear.

The FBI is on top of it. And our cumhander in thief has made family farms basically illegal, and are now ALL under regulation/oversight, of nearly EVERY freakin branch of the Fed Gvt.(no shice, already in force).

Before they are through, a few potted tomato pants on your porch will be included.

Bottom line, you WILL depend on US.= CONTROL.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:55 | 1590788 Votewithabullet
Votewithabullet's picture

...waiting to infiltrate??? Big brother has his representatives in every worthwhile group. Why the fuck do you think nothing fun happens unless its a lone wolf? If you shoot a deer your going to tell someone and if you tell someone big brother will find out. It has always been thus. What you see here, what you say here, let it stay here when you leave here.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:08 | 1590560 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

For those interested in this topic, Joel Skousen has written the definitive reference text on strategic relocation within the USA.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:56 | 1590792 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

Joel Skousen - Great patriot and good writings IMHO.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:59 | 1590813 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Any relation to Cleon?.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:09 | 1590563 shazbotz
shazbotz's picture
All US Mint Numismatic Gold Coins Suspended

This morning the US Mint has suspended sales of all remaining numismatic gold coin offerings. The move comes as the market price of gold has jump another $35 to nearly $1,890 per ounce. Prior to the suspension, products were priced based on an average gold price in the $1,750 to $1,799.99 range.

The US Mint’s pricing policy covering most numismatic gold coins allows for price changes to take place as frequently as weekly based on the average market price of gold based on the London Fix prices from the previous Thursday AM to the current Wednesday AM.

Pricing changes have generally taken place mid-morning Wednesday when all of the data points were available. The US Mint has reserved the right to suspend sales early “in the event that the selling price of United States Mint gold bullion products begin approaching the sale price of the gold numismatic products.” They invoked this option for the first time two weeks ago, and apparently for the second time today.

This year, pricing increases will have taken place on ten separate occasions on February 16, March 2, April 13, April 27, May 25, July 20, July 27, August 10, August 17, and likely later this week on August 25. Only one price decrease has taken place on May 18.

Commemorative gold coins, which are not covered by the numismatic gold coin pricing policy had their sales suspended on August 12. The US Mint plans to introduce a pricing grid for these products. The suspension still remains in place while the grid is being developed and implemented.

Late last week, the US Mint also suspended sales of the 2010 Silver Proof Set and 2010 America the Beautiful Quarters Silver Proof Set, pending repricing.

Source: Mint News Blog

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:39 | 1590696 JPM Hater001
JPM Hater001's picture

Excellent article.  Why anyone would want anything stamped by a US mint after what FDR did is way beyond my reasoning but ok.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:13 | 1590576 smore
smore's picture

I just read this article through another link - you are fast, Tylers!

Bottom line, if you can't get out of Amerika soon, go to Montana.  I hear Kalispell is popular.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:24 | 1590625 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Bring your own job if you come.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:37 | 1590977 smore
smore's picture

Yep, parasites not welcome.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:39 | 1590985 smore
smore's picture

You might be popular if you bring a lot of ammo.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:30 | 1590646 dust to dust
dust to dust's picture

 I reside in Montana. We're doing alright with our population right at 1Mil. Self sufficiency and plenty of firearms and ammo.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:13 | 1590577 newstreet
newstreet's picture

Carthago delends est.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:15 | 1590585 smore
smore's picture

Umm, newstreet, is this all you ever post?  At least get it right - delenda.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:15 | 1590586 props2009
props2009's picture

A disaster chart of BoA

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:17 | 1590588 static
static's picture

in chess there is a situation that some times occurs in the game called "Zugzwang" that is where ANY move by the player in such a mess ...loses material.. this is the apropos analogy the fed is in.... sad for the player in the position of strength he is now subject to the rules of the game being changed right in front of him.  the accounting rules of Mark to Market is a prime example....what kills me is they didn't have any problem with Mark to Market when everything was going up!   It's not "TBTF",.. it's "TBTLM"...To big to lose money

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:22 | 1590616 Waffen
Waffen's picture

+1 love this idea.. I just doubt I could convince my wife :(


Love ya Stewart, though I wish y'all hadnt throw July4thpatriot under the bus.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:23 | 1590621 SubjectivObject
SubjectivObject's picture

I interpret this this to be superficial/bogus screed.  Fear first ....  Remove the requirement for relocation and get back with your ideas.  What, no programatic intent to support those in suburban subdivisions? 

And incidentally, those able to relocate are concurrently identified as a very interesting demographic from a number of perspectives.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:18 | 1591315 damnitalready
damnitalready's picture

What, no programatic intent to support those in suburban subdivisions? 

I'd imagine there's no programatic intent to support anyone, that's the point, to be self-sufficient. You'll want to eat, get ready to grow something, or provide something of value to those who do grow something.  Relocating allows for a larger number of like minded individuals to be in the same area, grouping together and sharing ideas, setting up markets and trade.  It's easier to do without people being spread across the globe.

The beauty though is you don't have to participate if you don't want to.  It's what freedom is all about... but how can you read ZH, watch the impending collapse, and not prepare is beyond me.  If you know you need to prepare, then do so.  If you're stuck in suburbia (you're not alone) then prepare for that as well.

The whole article is a drawn out way to say identify, assess, and eliminate the reliance on outside parties to provide necessities for you and your family to survive.  How and where you do it is up to you, but here are some solutions others are working on.  This is how a free society would work, rather than just going to their politician and telling them to fix it, or "tax that man so me and mine can eat."

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:25 | 1590628 reader2010
reader2010's picture

The "safe haven" as spelled out here by definition is anything but SAFE. If you really want to relocate, you need to get out of the other "Evil Empire" entirely.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:27 | 1590634 Confused
Confused's picture

Of course, getting out is the the ideal. But certainly there needs to be an alternative, no? Its not as easy as you would think.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:37 | 1590678 reader2010
reader2010's picture

Sure, there should be some alternatives. But those places strongly suggested here are within the Fuckshima fallout range, which kills you softly anyway.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:26 | 1590630 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

good talk between Ben Davies and James Turk on Gold, China, currencies and the big mess

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:27 | 1590635 Construct
Construct's picture

Yeah I do have physical Gold/Silver. That is good enough for me. But the idea that it is a good thing to be isolated is flawed and twisted beyond belief. This article frankly was quite pathetic.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:10 | 1590863 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

You only want to be isolated from the turds of humanity, not the diamonds.  Obviously you haven't yet made the distinction.  Why do you think all the welfare recipients concentrate in the cities?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:25 | 1590899 Construct
Construct's picture

So you mean to tell me that there is something wrong with people who are on welfare? many of them used to have jobs before the crisis you know. 
The reason it makes no economic sense to live in suburbia and even further out then that which this shitty article is a proponent of is because of the high energy/transportation costs which are highly unlikely to go down in the future. So although intuitive this article might seem correct it is actually pretty flawed.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:10 | 1591224 damnitalready
damnitalready's picture

You miss the point entirely, it's not about being isolated, it's about being self sufficient, which is easier to do in rural america than in the urban or suburban areas, where you can erect the windmills or solar panels, where you can dig a well, where you can raise cattle or other farm animals, and have space for a garden.  

And it's not a black and white arrangment, it's not one or the other, it's a large shade of grey of how reliant you are on government services, and anything else that brings counterparty risk.  You rely on electric from someone else, you rely on water from someone else, you rely on food from someone else, and you rely on security from someone else.  The goal is to eliminate the *need* for these services being provided by someone else, and having the ability to live without someone else providing them for you if necessary.

And you're just trying to stir shit with the conclusion that those on welfare are the turds of society.  Sure, *some* people on welfare are those who would work, are diligently looking for work, and aren't lifelong government-teet suckers, but those people aren't the norm in my experience.  I'd venture they're not the norm in the OPs experience either.



Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:39 | 1591460 Construct
Construct's picture

This whole being 'self sufficient' thing is a complete fraud. Face it you will always need other people at least in the most basic function of producing/consuming.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:31 | 1591726 toady
toady's picture

We produce what we consume, outside of your 'system'. No 'other people' are involved, or needed.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:33 | 1590650 Silver Dreamer
Silver Dreamer's picture

They want to build a community next to a volcano?  To each their own I suppose.  I'll stick to Virginia.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:35 | 1590671 Waffen
Waffen's picture

yeah I must admit the big caldera worries me a bit.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:42 | 1590714 Construct
Construct's picture

Indeed. The article is also 100% wrong in the perspective of prices of Petroleum that avarage 100 USD and will probably go higher in the event of a QE3.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:32 | 1590652 Lester
Lester's picture

Rule #1:  Get out of the line of fire.

Rule #2:  Do all within your means to enable a modicum of self-sufficiency.

Going where the food is could mean nothing more than learning to sprout and do hydroponics.  Have to think NUTRITION.  Always lots you can do to feed your family IF you have the vision and gear up.  Figuring to live through a shtf situation?  Better stockpile enough food now, because won't be safe to be out/about foraging, shopping, hunting.  Don't need to buy "longterm food storage".  You can process whole grains, preferably organic, storing them in plastic buckets using chips of dry-ice and a new gasket seal lid.  We have used sherwyn-williams paint buckets, bought new and even our Brown Rice stored for 15yrs has been fine to eat.

Don't need to buy a farm.  French intensive gardening can bring a helluva yield on small plots of good organic soils.  You sure don't want to eat food grown with miracle-grow or other wonder fertilizers...  Learn to compost, maybe you raise a hutch of rabbits and have an earthworm pit under the cage so the rabbit pellets are composted and your worms can aerate your garden soils...  Chickens are easy and fresh eggs are wonderful, kinda noisy if you have a rooster.

Figuring on hunting?  Don't.  Best to be armed at all times so you can take whatever game comes your way, but being out in the woods will waste your time and maybe lead to unwanted confrontations.  Also don't want to be dependent on woodburning heat or cookstoves for first year or two.  Kerosene stores well and a Toyo or Monitor heater is most efficient heating there is, #1 heating oil is same as kero.

Nothing wrong with owning land, but a decent tiller or garden tractor will work an acre or two with ease and if use FIG techniques will supply what 10 or 20 ac of trad plant methods will.  If you expect to gather game, rather than hunting best to use snares and traps.

Good luck!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:33 | 1590658 Henry Chinaski
Henry Chinaski's picture

1960's: "Turn on, tune in, drop out"

2010's: "Stock up, sight in, bug out"

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:50 | 1590676 Die Weiße Rose
Die Weiße Rose's picture

Do they have free Food - stamps in those rural areas one tank of gas distance from those major metropolitan areas ?

lets face it,most of you have not got a fucking clue about basic survival or agriculture and farming, nor do Americans have any clue about what happened in the Weimar Republic or how Germans managed to survive through 2 world wars in the City or the Country. To know that you have to face some real hardship and most Americans never had to face real hardship.

So you surf the web and get off on some farm-game fantasy and this is the answer you come up with ?

Fucking unreal !




Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:35 | 1590965 DosZap
DosZap's picture


So many thanks for your wonderful and helpful post.

Also, before folks in glass houses throw rocks, DID not those folks START both those wars?.

Now sit in a corner and play with yourself.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:39 | 1590688 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

Rocky Mountains area eh? Well yeah you can have that area although I would be sad to see Idaho go, lots of healthy ecosystems there. I would hope said groups weren't planning on clearcutting just because they hate the "left" so much and don't want anyone pointing out that their actions might harm them in the long run.

That's the thing I wonder about. So many who see the writing on the wall politically and economically miss the environmental picture and feel like more high speed extraction is their god given right and damn the consequences.

Those groups proposing this sure feel like a flash point for the FEDS. I think I will just keep my head down in rural areas near where I live now. I want no part of the madness and violence that is sure to come, the guns and bullets folks can have eachother I want peace and to stay out of the global testosterone pissing match. I figure there are more than enough violent people out there to exhaust eachother with the killing of one another.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:56 | 1590790 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

you'll last a week.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:22 | 1590903 T1000
T1000's picture

There were small villages in France that had no understanding of the political changes and wars that went on throughout the centuries in the rest of their country. They were small villages that were tucked out of the way, they didn't even speak French, just a local patois. Whenever there was political change, it only concerned Paris and other large cities.

If you live out of the way and within a small village or town of like minded people, it is possible to ride out these large waves.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:54 | 1591081 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

A lot more people now, a lot more cars...

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:38 | 1591752 trav7777
trav7777's picture

and of course you don't EVER use electricity provided by some distant power plant?

GFD will you people just think through shit?  You actually sat down on a fuckin computer and typed this out and posted it on the internet to say that you can ride everything out in a small village like frenchies a century ago?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 20:03 | 1592041 T1000
T1000's picture

Power has a price. Being hooked up to the grid has a price. That price is being connected to the grid, to their matrix.

Let's think this thru with your own argument, trav, you know, the one where you said all the power and voting goes to the center, not the environs. You fucking said that, remember.

So what happens when thieves steal the metal power grid and sell it for scrap? What if connecting to the power grid is not even possible unless you run security to the entire grid? This is already happening right now, this isn't make believe. Thieves are stealing, which takes down the system.What happens when the little towns can't afford to connect anymore?

Some towns are already scraping the pavement for dirt roads because they can't afford to pave it anymore.

Use your own logic here, trav, the power and control goes to the core, everyone else is on their own. You think people are going to just give up and live in the big city? They won't last. This is neofeudalism, now. Little towns are the old villages, don't get lost in semantics.

Or, maybe you could enlighten us with more of your clear vision of the future, like when you said that the fukushima disaster was on par with eating bananas.


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 21:11 | 1592875 malikai
malikai's picture

I hate to bust the freakout bubble, but if you live stateside, you probably will get about the same dose from Fukushima cumulatively as you would get in perhaps a year's worth of banannas. If you're like me and you eat one a day, you probably get about the same dose as Fukushima in about 3 months of eating banannas. If you live in Iwaki, then you'd probably have to eat about a million banannas to equate the same dose. However, this is an irrelevant topic, since K40 remains constant in the body regardless how many banannas you eat since the body maintains a stable stock of potassium and rids itself of any excess.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 20:27 | 1592785 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

That's the general idea yeah. Same with some villages in Germany in the Bavarian alps, WWII huh? Or in the interior in India when folks asked them their thoughts after Britain was kicked out and the villagers said "Who are these British you are talking about?"

All the folks going nuts with tons of guns need to quit watching Omega Man. Unless you are a navy seal with friends and serious artillery the whole guns thing will just attract the Lord Humongous. I will take my chances with friends and family in rural areas near where I live. Farm already starting to get set up, land in the area is getting cheaper. We will see what unfolds. 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 20:53 | 1592833 T1000
T1000's picture

I know areas that are so disconnected from the political power source here in the USofA, they literally have more in common with darth vader and emperor palpatine. The star wars heros are more real to them then Obammma and Bernank on the TeeVee.

All these fools screaming about high price of oil, like the world cannot survive without oil and electricity. These things are modern inventions. People lived civily for 10,000 years without them. I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but in no way is it the end. Let history be your guide of how people adapt to tough situations. Get off the beaten path and disconnect from their power, and you're no longer a target. Get a village sized group of like minded individuals that can sustain themselves, and you'll survive. There are monestaries in Europe that are older than any government on earth, still there, still functioning and thriving, and they will be there long after all these governments fail.

All the fucking gold and silver in the world is not going to save us. You know what will, history shows the answer over and over, the answer isn't in metals, it's in community.

Got community, bitches?

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:27 | 1591705 Gymno
Gymno's picture

I "want no part of the madness and violence".  OK , you won't go search after it, but in REALITY, it will come searching after you.  Their first targets will be those that are "easy" and undefended areas.  Living without any means to protect yourself is your choice  to be one of the first targets.  I think it better to be part of a well armed community, that wants to live a peaceable life, but won't put up with the horde that wants to take everything you have prepared for.  A gun and a bullet just gives you another option if needed. 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 20:31 | 1592798 Bring the Gold
Bring the Gold's picture

That's reasonable, but again I don't want to live a violent life. If violence comes to my area I will do my best to avoid it. If I die so be it, I'm not keen on being a pet of this guy: but surviving: Death seems preferable.

To each their own and I don't fault you for that attitude. I just want no part of the violence. I don't plan on being in an easy place to get to and others in my community are hunters so there is that. I just am not going to stock up on human specific killing devices to go with the last man standing approach. Again, I don't fault others for that thinking and I don't begrudge them it. I support the second ammendment and the rest of the Bill of Rights and additional ammendments.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:43 | 1590719 OutLookingIn
OutLookingIn's picture

One law of nature that the "safe havener's" seem to ignore or conveniently forget, is that there are always' haves' and 'have nots'. Those that are hungry and want to eat and those that have food, or are food! Those who are armed and those that are not. Those that defend and those that attack. The weak versus the strong and the ruled versus those that rule.

This is basic human nature and has been the case with humanity since the dawn of time. It will not change. So these so-called "safe havens" may be not be that safe. It will be a different world, of that most are assuredly sure of! It all comes down to to defend, or attack? Fight or flight? There will always be those who produce food and those who extract a food toll as being their protectors and defenders.

This will be societal regression, rather than progression. Welcome to the new abnormal!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:29 | 1590935 T1000
T1000's picture

I always thought we were returning to a modern middle ages. I can see the case for worldwide authoritarian control groups, and I can also see a return to lawlessness with pockets of people protecting themselves and the rule of law, a return to the average, I guess.

If you think about it, this modern life of nations and total interconnectedness with physical roads and power grids is entirely novel, historically speaking. We're living in a time of ahistorical proportions.

What happens when they can no longer afford to pave the roads? What happens when thieves strip the wires and the power is cut from the source with no funds to repair it? It's already happening.

I can see a return to what has always been.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:44 | 1590725 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

The Domestic Version of Simon Black!!    Lots of good ideas though!  I won't be moving to Montana but maintain my rural existence in rural NC with the option of going to Ecuador if I'd like to.

We raise rabbits for meat as well as chickens for eggs and meat and do some heavy gardening.  Don't have to buy too much from the grocery store.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:45 | 1590735 falak pema
falak pema's picture

On the basis of this line of thought we are in total think small, act small, and hunker down America. It will take some awesome mind boggling readjustment to fill the world void if this occurs. Isolationism, small government, autarcy. Deflation of mega proportions.

The greatest world player suddenly disappears from the scene. I respect the feeling that fuels this viewpoint. A bleeding and wounded nation has to recoup.

But in the meantime, the world becomes an empty stage. I hate to think of the implications world wide of this gaping geo-poliitical hole and what its creation will imply for the others....

Now that is TRUE paradigm change of awesome magnitude.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 12:48 | 1590741 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture
New-home sales fall, 2011 could be worst year yet Sales fell 0.7 pct. in July.; 2011 shaping up to be worst on records dating back 50 years




Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:41 | 1591005 T1000
T1000's picture

You haven't seen nuthin yet :)

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:10 | 1590859 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I read this thread title and couldn't help but to think of a poor pawn busy jacking off the king, with the rest of the board to follow shortly.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:15 | 1590874 DosZap
DosZap's picture

As an addendum to the topic.........................

Moving to these area's, just will make it easier to round your ass up...............fwiw.(If and when the time comes)

Sounds good on paper,but is a dumb move in practice.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:15 | 1590878 FlyPaper
FlyPaper's picture

RURAL AREAS:  Are not safe unless you are in a rural community.   When Argentina fell apart horrendous murders, torture, rapes, etc happened to people in rural areas - no law enforcement, and the ability to overwhelm a rural residents with a larger group was relatively easy.

If you want to get an "IN THE KNOW" picture of what happened and what could happen here in a collapse, click on this link to Amazon and read this book.  Practical information and one person's survival tactics.  Much better than conjecture from people who haven't actually had to survive in a difficult situation...


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:15 | 1590879 FlyPaper
FlyPaper's picture

RURAL AREAS:  Are not safe unless you are in a rural community.   When Argentina fell apart horrendous murders, torture, rapes, etc happened to people in rural areas - no law enforcement, and the ability to overwhelm a rural residents with a larger group was relatively easy.

If you want to get an "IN THE KNOW" picture of what happened and what could happen here in a collapse, click on this link to Amazon and read this book.  Practical information and one person's survival tactics.  Much better than conjecture from people who haven't actually had to survive in a difficult situation...


Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:25 | 1590914 Lazane
Lazane's picture

please pass the Spam

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:27 | 1590924 gwar5
gwar5's picture

From Oregon originally -- all those areas are awesome -- ID, WY, OR, MT, WA, a little cold in the winter, though.


For me rural NC/TN mountains in summers, with winters in Costa Rica. TN: self-reliant people, farms, firing range, neighbor with vinyard, all growing own food. Have everything, don't need A/C and just firewood when cold, as needed.

If Doomsday is called off you'll still have a great rental or 2nd home. Recommend develop a welcome skill set to offer; medical, mechanical, agriculture, speak Madarin, etc



Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:37 | 1590980 Yardstick of Ci...
Yardstick of Civilization's picture

Learn to fish and live near water, Bitchez!!!!!

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 13:44 | 1590986 Yardfarmer
Yardfarmer's picture

Having gradually relocated from a large urban center to a remote rural area officially designated an "agricultural wasteland" I can assure you that a self sustaining life in the hinterlands is an austere, challenging experience which, if undertaken with like minded individuals with a common goal, is also an incredibly enriching and energizing one. being off the grid with no running water or electricity makes simple tasks once taken for granted a sometimes arduous day to day struggle. solar panels provide minimal and yet satisfactory electricity. a solar pump with a manual backup sunk down a 200 foot well will soon be installed while we presently haul water in 150 and 200 gallon tanks transferred to two separate 2000 gallon tanks which are also fed by water captured from steel panel roofs. two Katadyn water filters process our drinking water. a converted school bus serves as a kitchen in which we produce the fine chevre,queso, and feta cheeses as well as yogurt which are gratefully consumed and sold in the city or the local farmer's market. the residences are a yurt, a second floor "suite" above the barn where goats, sheep, and chickens reside, and a fifth wheel trailer down the road. three mule foot pigs are now free ranging from their pen over 100 acres of mountain mahogany, oak, and meadowland grasses along with the flock and their Marima and Akbash/Pyrenees flock guardians. beginning during a winter thaw we dug two gardens generously amended with goat manure to add to the existing one all of which have been producing plentiful amounts of greens, onions, squash,beets, okra, tomatoes, potatoes, etc..needless to say we have amply invested in Au/Ag and have the means and the wherewithal to protect our interests. We don't need any Liberty or any other "movement" to instruct us in the simple ways of the earth or anything else.

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 14:08 | 1591234 mirac
mirac's picture

How close are you located to Yellowstone from Western Montana????

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:28 | 1591711 The Man in Room Five
The Man in Room Five's picture

Why stay in America? 

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:43 | 1591775 cacho
cacho's picture

I live in Buenos Aires, Argentina and the panorama painted in the article seems to be extracted from a movie script... In 2001/2002 there were riots at downtown streets and looting around the city for a couple of days, twenty something died but everything else worked just fine. Yes, these years were difficult business wise, but we argentinos are used to these cycles and walked out of the crisis mostly harmless. I'm mid class and self employed, went on vacations that summer and lived mostly of savings the 6 months after the crisis because sales were ZERO, mostly due to my activity, frends of mine did not suffered downturns, after that business started to get orders again, and now, Im still in business.

Our biggest problem in Argentina is inflation and corruption, solve that and we could be a central country again as we were in the early 1900s

Tue, 08/23/2011 - 15:54 | 1591846 Carbon Penguin
Tue, 08/23/2011 - 17:08 | 1592202 DumFarmer
DumFarmer's picture

For the city dwellers;

If Rule #1 is go where the food is, don't forget rule 1a: Food producers will defend their food. If your only prep is to own copious Phys PM, then try eating it. I will sell all my excess for a mighty fine profit, but will not sell a scrap more than what my family needs, for any price. I do not assume hungry people will come friendly, I have worked around the human animal too long to it's ignore the brutal nature when pushed into a corner. I have given up some of the "peacock" pleasures to enrich my soil, secure deep well water without power, if needed, heat with wood, have heated indoor growing space and have a small amount of solar power. I suggest those that think the future is anything like portrayed above seriously consider teaching themselves useful skills, even if the only oppurtunity is through reading. I have room for an almost infinite number of people to reside on my property if they can contribute, but I have no time for useless looters and no love of their life.

Wed, 08/24/2011 - 02:21 | 1594041 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Ah, ah, made me laugh. Even when facts stare at them right in the face, US citizens sink into deep denial.

Food producers will defend their food. Okay. But guess against who? The same population that has grown in the biggest bully on the world scale.

And US citizens want to claim they are going to be able to defend against that with their rural communauty militia?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!