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Guest Post: Gold Bonds: Averting Financial Armageddon

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Written by and © by Keith Weiner

Gold Bonds: Averting Financial Armageddon

After the near-collapse of the financial system in 2008, a growing number of people have come to realize that our monetary disease is terminal.  It is that group to whom I address this paper.  I sincerely hope that this group includes leaders in business, finance, and government.

I do not believe that my proposal herein is necessarily “realistic” (i.e. pragmatic).  There are many interest groups that may oppose it for various reasons, based on their short-sighted desire to try to continue the status quo yet a while longer.  Nevertheless, I feel that I must write and publish this paper.  To say nothing in the face of the greatest financial calamity would go against everything I believe.

***

It seems self-evident.  The government can debase the currency and thereby be able to pay off its astronomical debt in cheaper dollars.  But as I will explain below, things don’t work that way.  In order to use the debasement of paper currencies to repay the debt more easily, governments will need to issue and use the gold bond.(Wherever I refer to gold, I also mean silver. For the sake of brevity and readability I will only say gold in most cases.

I give credit for the basic idea of using gold bonds to solve the debt problem to Professor Antal Fekete, as proposed in his paper: “Cut the Gordian Knot: Resurrect the Latin Monetary Union” (http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFCutTheGordianKnot.pdf).  My paper covers different ground than Fekete’s, and my proposal is different as well.  I encourage readers to read both papers.

The paper currencies will not survive too much longer.  Most governments now owe as much or more than the annual GDPs of their nations (typically far more, under GAAP accounting).  But the total liabilities in the system are much larger.

Even worse, in the formal and shadow banking system, derivative exposure is estimated to be more than 700 trillion dollars.  Many are quick to insist that this is the “gross” exposure, and the “net” is much smaller as these positions are typically hedged.  But the real exposure is close to the “gross” exposure in a crisis.  While each party may be “hedged” by having a long leg and a balancing short leg, these will not “net out”.  This is because in times of stress the bid (but not the offer) is withdrawn.  To close the long leg of an arbitrage, one must sell on the bid (which could be zero).  To close the short leg, one must buy at the offer (which will still be high).  When the bid-ask spread widens that way, it will be for good reason and it does not do to be an armchair philosopher and argue that it “should not” occur.  Lots of things will occur that should not occur.

For example, gold should not go into backwardation.  This is another big (if not widely appreciated) piece of evidence that confidence in the ability of debtors to pay is waning.  Gold and silver went into backwardation in 2008 and have been flitting in and out of backwardation since then.  Backwardation develops when traders refuse to take a “risk free” profit.  That is, the trade is free from all risks except the risk of default and losing one’s metal in exchange for a defaulted futures contract.  See my paper (http://keithweiner.posterous.com/61392399) for a full treatment of this topic.

The root cause of our monetary disease has its origins in the creation of the Fed and other central banks prior to World War I, and in the insane treaty signed in 1944 at Bretton Woods in which many nations agreed for their central banks to use the US dollar as if it were gold, and this paved the way for President Nixon to pound in the final nail in the coffin.  He repudiated the gold obligations of the US government in 1971, thereby plunging the whole world into the regime of irredeemable paper.

The US dollar game is a check-kiting scheme.  The Fed issues the dollar, which is its liability.  The Fed buys the US Treasury bond, which is the asset to balance the liability.  The only problem is that the bonds are payable only in the central bank’s paper scrip!  Meanwhile, per Bretton Woods, the rest of the world’s central banks use the dollar as if it were gold.  It is their reserve asset, and they pyramid credit in their local currencies on top of it.

It is not a bug, but a feature, that debt in this system must grow exponentially.  There is no ultimate extinguisher of debt.  In my paper on Inflation (http://keithweiner.posterous.com/inflation-an-expansion-of-counterfeit-c...), I define inflation as an expansion of counterfeit credit.  I define deflation as a forcible contraction of counterfeit credit, and the inevitable consequence of inflation.  Well, we have had many decades of rampant expansion of counterfeit credit.  Now we will have deflation, and the harder the central banks try to fight it by forcing yet more expansion of counterfeit credit, the worse the problem becomes.  With leverage everywhere in the system, it would not take many defaults to wipe out every financial institution.  And there will be many defaults.   One default will beget another and once it really begins in earnest there will be no stopping the cascade.

Another key problem is duration mismatch.  Today, every bank and financial institution borrows short to lend long, many corporations borrow short to finance long-term projects, and every government is borrowing short to fund perpetual debts.  Duration mismatch can cause runs on the banks and market crashes, because when depositors demand their money, banks must desperately sell any asset they can into a market that is suddenly “no bid”.  In two papers (http://keithweiner.posterous.com/fractional-reserve-is-not-the-problem and  http://keithweiner.posterous.com/falling-interest-rates-and-duration-mis...), I cover duration mismatch in banks and corporations in more depth.

Most banks and economists have supported a policy of falling interest rates since they began to fall in 1981.  But falling interest rates destroy capital, as I explain in that last paper, linked above.  As the rate of interest falls, the real burden of the debt, incurred at higher rates, increases.

Related to this phenomenon is the fact that the average duration of bonds at every level has been falling for a long time (US Treasury duration began increasing post 2008, but I think this is an artifact of the Fed’s purchases in their so-called “Quantitative Easing”).  Declining duration is an inevitable consequence of the need to constantly “roll” debts.  Debts are never repaid, the debtor merely pays the interest and rolls the principal when due.  As the duration gets shorter and shorter, the noose gets tighter and tighter.  If there is to be a real payback of debt, even in nominal terms, we need to buy more time.  At the US Treasury level, average duration is about 5 years.  I doubt that’s long enough.

And of course the motivation for building this broken system in the first place is the desire by nearly everyone to have a welfare state, without the corresponding crippling taxation.  It has been long believed by most people a central bank is just the right kind of magic to let one have this cake and eat it too, without consequences.  Well, the consequences are now becoming visible.  See my papers (http://keithweiner.posterous.com/the-laffer-curve-and-austrian-economics and http://keithweiner.posterous.com/a-politically-incorrect-look-at-margina...) discussing what raising taxes will do, especially in the bust phase like we have now.

In reality, stripped of the fancy nomenclature and the abstraction of a monetary system, the picture is as simple as it is bleak.  Normally, people produce more than they consume.  They save.  A frontier farmer in the 19th century, for example, would dedicate some work to clearing a new field, or building a smokehouse, or putting a wall around a pasture so he could add to his herd.  But for the past several decades, people have been tricked by distorted price signals (including bond prices, i.e. interest rates) into consuming more than they produce.

In any case, it is not possible to save in an irredeemable paper currency.  Depositing money in a bank will just result in more buying of government bonds.  Capital accumulation has long since turned to capital decumulation.

This would be bad enough, as capital is the leverage on human effort that allows us to have the present standard of living.  We don’t work any harder than early people did 10,000 years ago, and yet we are vastly more productive due to our accumulated capital.

Now much of the capital is gone, and it cannot be brought back.  It will soon be impossible to continue to paper over the losses.  The purpose of this piece is not to propose how to save the dollar or the other paper currencies.  They are past the point where saving them is possible.  This paper is directed to avoiding the collapse of our civilization.

If we stay on the present course, I think the outcome will look more like 472 AD than 1929.  We must solve three problems to avoid that kind of collapse:

  1. Repayment of all debts in nominal terms
  2. Keep bank accounts, pensions, annuities, corporate payrolls, annuities, etc. solvent, in nominal terms
  3. Begin circulation of a proper currency before the collapse of the paper currencies, so that people have something they can use when paper no longer works

I propose a few simple steps first, and then a simple solution.  All of this is designed to get gold to circulate once again as money.  Today, we have gold “souvenir coins”.  They are readily available, and have been for many years, but they do not circulate.

A gold standard is like a living organism.  While having the right elements present and arranged in the right way is necessary, it is not sufficient.  It must also be in constant motion.  Gold, under the gold standard, was always flowing.  Once the motion is stopped, restarting it is not easy.  This applies to a corpse of a man as well as of a gold standard.

The first steps are:

  1. Eliminate all capital “gains” taxes on gold and silver
  2. Repeal all legal tender laws that force creditors to accept paper
  3. Also repeal laws that nullify gold clauses in contracts
  4. Open the mint to the (seigniorage) free coinage of gold and silver; let people bring in their metal and receive back an equal amount in coin form.  These coins should not be denominated in paper currency units, but merely ounces or grams

Each of these items removes one obstacle for gold to circulate as money, along side the paper currencies.  The capital “gains” tax will do its worst damage precisely when people need gold the most.  At that point, the nominal price of gold in the paper currencies will be rising very rapidly.  Any sale of bullion will result in a tax of virtually the entire amount, as the cost basis from even a few weeks prior will be much lower than the current price.  This amounts, in the US, to a 28% confiscation of gold.  This tax will force people to keep gold underground and not bring it to market.  It will contribute to the acceleration of permanent backwardation.

It is important to realize that gold is not “going up”.  Paper is going down.  There is no gain for the holder of gold; he has simply not lost wealth due to the debasement of paper.

Current law forces creditors to accept paper as payment in full for all debts, and there are also laws that nullify gold clauses in contracts.  Repeal them, and let creditors and borrowers negotiate something mutually agreeable.

Finally, the bid-ask spread on gold bullion coins such as the US gold eagle or the South African krugerrand is too wide.  If the mint provided seigniorage-free coinage service, then people would bring in gold bars and other forms of bullion until the bid-ask spread narrowed appropriately.  One of the attributes that gives gold its “moneyness” is its tight spread (even today, it is 10 to 30 cents per $1600 ounce!)  But currently, this tight spread only applies to large bullion bars traded by the bullion banks and other sophisticated traders.  This spread must be available to the average person.

As I said earlier, these steps are necessary.  Gold certainly will not circulate under the current leftover regime from Roosevelt and Nixon.  But it is not sufficient to address the debt problem.

Accordingly, I propose a simple additional step.  The government should sell gold bonds.  By this, I do not mean gold “backed” paper bonds.  I mean bonds denominated in ounces of gold, which pay their coupon in ounces of gold and pay the principal amount in ounces of gold.  Below, I explain how this will solve the three problems I described above.

Mechanically, it is straightforward.  The government should set a rule that, to buy a gold bond, one does not bid dollars.  One bids paper bonds!  So to buy a 100-ounce gold bond, then one could bid for example $160,000 worth of paper bonds (assuming the price of gold is $1600 per ounce).  The government retires the paper bond and in exchange replaces it with a newly-issued gold bond.

The government should start with a small tender, to ensure a high bid to cover ratio.  And a series of small auctions will give the market time to accept the idea.  It will also allow the development of gold bond market makers.

With gold bonds, it would be possible to sell long durations.  With paper, there is no good reason to buy a 30-year bond (except to speculate on the next move by the central bank).  The dollar is expected to fall considerably over a 30-year period.  But with gold, there is no such debasement.  The government could therefore exchange short-duration debt for long-duration debt.

At first, the price of the gold bonds would likely be set as a straight conversion of the gold price, perhaps adjusted for differing durations.  For example, a 100 ounce gold bond of 30 years duration might be bid at $160,000 worth of 30-year paper bond.

But I think that the bid on gold bonds will rise far above “par”, for several reasons I will discuss below.

The nature of the dynamic will become clear to more and more people in due course.  In the present regime, there is a common misconception that the yield on a bond is set by the market’s expectation of how much consumer prices will rise (the crude proxy for the loss of value for the dollar).  But this is not true.  Unlike in a gold standard, in an irredeemable paper standard, people are disenfranchised.  They have no say over the rate of interest.  The dollar system is a closed loop, and if you sell a bond then you either hold cash in a bank, which means the bank will buy a bond.  Or you buy another asset.  In which case the seller of that asset holds cash in a bank or buys a bond.  This is one of the reasons why the rate of interest has been falling for 30 years despite huge debasement.  All dollars eventually go into the Treasury bond.

The price of the paper bond today is set by a combination of central bank buying, and structural distortions in the system.  But it is a self-referential price, in a game between the Treasury and the Fed.  The price of the bond does not really come from the market.  And this impacts every other bond in the universe, which all trade at varying spreads to the Treasury.

An alternative to paper bonds would be very attractive to those who want to save and earn income for the long term, pension funds, annuities, etc.  Not only will the price of gold continue to rise (i.e. the value of the paper currency will continue to fall towards zero), but also a premium for gold bonds would develop and grow.  The quality asset will be recognized to be worth more, and at the least people would price in whatever rate of the price of gold they expect to occur over the duration of the bond.

This dynamic—a rising price of gold, and a rising exchange value of gold bonds for paper bonds—will allow governments and other debtors to use the devaluation of paper as a means to repay their debts in nominal terms, but affordably in real terms.

This is impossible under paper bonds!  This is because the process of debasement is a process of the Treasury borrowing more money.  Debt goes up to debase the dollar.  This path leads not to repayment of the debt cheaply, but to exponentially growing debt until a total default.

So we have solved problem number one.  With a rising gold price, and a rising exchange rate of gold bonds for paper bonds, we have set up a dynamic whereby every paper obligation can be met in nominal terms.  Of course, the value of that paper will be vastly lower than it is today.  This is the only way that the immense amounts of debt outstanding can possibly be honored.

This also solves problem number two.  If every financial institution is repaid every nominal dollar it is owed, then they will remain solvent.  To be sure, pension payments, bank accounts, corporate payroll, and annuities etc. will be of much lower real value.  But there is a critical difference between smoothly losing value vs. abruptly losing everything, along with catastrophic failure of the financial system.

I want to address what could be a misconception at this point.  Does this work only for governments that have gold reserves in the vaults?  No, this is not about gold reserves.  While that may help accelerate a gold bond program, the essential is not gold stocks but gold flows.  The government issuer of gold bonds must have a gold income (or a credible plan to develop one quickly).

And this leads to problem number three.  Gold does not circulate today.  Who has a gold income?  That is where we must look to begin the loop.  There is one kind of participant today who has a gold income: the gold miner.  Beset by environmentalist lawsuits, regulations, permits, impact studies, fees, labor law, confiscatory taxes, and other obstacles created by government, these companies still manage to extract gold out of the ground.

The gold miners are the group to which we must turn to help solve the catch-22 of getting gold to circulate from the current state where it does not.  I think there is a simple win-win proposition to offer them.  In exchange for exemptions from the various taxes, regulations, environmentalism, etc. they have a choice to pay a tax in gold bullion.

There are other kinds of entities to consider taxing, but the problem is that they all would need to buy gold in the open market in order to pay the tax.  As the price begins to rise exponentially, this will be certain bankruptcy for anyone but a gold miner.

And now, look at the progress we’ve made on the problem of getting gold to circulate.  We have gold miners paying tax in gold to governments who are making bond coupon payments in gold to investors who now have a gold income.  We can see how gold bond market makers will enter the scene, and earn a gold income to provide liquidity for bonds that are not “on the run”.  These bond market makers could pay a tax in gold also.

And we have released other creditors from any restriction in lending and demanding repayment in gold.  And anyone else in a position to sign a long-term agreement involving a stream of payments over a long period of time, such as landlords, can incorporate gold clauses in their contracts.  And if the tenant has a gold income, perhaps from owning a gold bond, he can manage his cash flows and confidently sign such a lease.

Note that the lender, unlike the employee, the restaurant, or most other economic actors, is in a position to demand gold.  While everyone else would like to be paid in gold, they haven’t got the pricing power to demand it.  The lender can say: “if you want my capital, you must repay it in gold!”

If enough gold bonds are issued soon enough, we may reverse the one-way flow of gold from the markets into private hiding, that is inexorably leading to inevitable permanent backwardation and the withdrawal of all gold from the system.

One of the key points in my backwardation paper is that the value of the dollar collapses to zero not as a consequence of the quantity of dollars rising to infinity, but because of the desire of some dollar holders to get gold.  If they cannot trade paper for gold, then they will trade paper for commodities without regard to price and trade those commodities for gold.  This will cause the price of the commodities in dollar terms to rise to levels that make the dollar useless in trade (and collapse the price of commodities in gold terms).

If we reverse the flow of gold out of the markets, we may be able to prevent this disaster from occurring.  The dollar will then continue to lose value in a continuous (if accelerating) manner, as people migrate to gold.

This is the best outcome that could possibly be hoped for.  If it occurs along with a reduction in spending so that spending does not exceed (tax) revenues, we will avert Armageddon and be on the path to a proper and real recovery.  To be clear, times will be hard and the average standard of living will decline precipitously.

But this is infinitely preferable to total collapse.

It is now up to farsighted leaders, especially in government, to take the first concrete steps towards saving Western Civilization.

 

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Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:42 | 2101454 Marco
Marco's picture

"This is impossible under paper bonds! This is because the process of debasement is a process of the Treasury borrowing more money."

Not all fiat money is bonds. You can simply expand M0 and hand it to the treasury ... or throw it out of helicopters and increase taxes.

True money printing works exceedingly well at creating inflation and evaporating debt denominated in the currency being printed.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:44 | 2101456 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Who is ready for a snapback to EUR/USD $1.265?  Soccer moms everwhere rejoice and get long the DXY!  We're headed for 81.5!

Oh, and SAT800, what was the spread for the Dow today?  Was it 122?  I think it was....

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:46 | 2101463 Cranios
Cranios's picture

Of course, the fatal flaw in this article is that holders of gold will be told to turn it in, before gold bonds are even thought of by the government.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:48 | 2101468 Marco
Marco's picture

Highly unlikely in my opinion, more likely is value added tax on gold transactions/export.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:50 | 2101469 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

I'm with you pseudo. In India gold is considered a holy metal. In the western tradition they are called the noble metals. It is the only way to keep commerce honest. A pure gold and silver standard is the perfect money: A store of value and a medium of exchange. Hypotacation or re-hypotecation be damned.

 The dilution of it, be it with paper games or as was done in antiquity by alloying with base metals is a symptom of moral decay and leads to hubris and violence. Gold bonds I would consider just another way of playing paper games. Of course something like that is likely to be in our future, but will not solve the basic problem,but only keep the music going for another round of banker/government induced forced anal intercourse.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:56 | 2101478 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

forced anal intercourse.

 

You seem to be closed minded to this idea.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:53 | 2101475 the 300000000th...
the 300000000th percent's picture

MBD should run for president, I think the sheeple are ready for him. 

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 21:56 | 2101479 madcuban
madcuban's picture

Gold bonds aren't going to drive gold from those holding it.  Gold is being held b/c fiat money has driven it out.  Gresham's Law.  Skip this type of semantics.  Read Ron Paul's book co authored with Lew Lehrman: The Case for Gold.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:00 | 2101483 Ned Zeppelin
Ned Zeppelin's picture

As long as the Regime has bullets, gold will never again be allowed to serve as the objective measure against which the worth of Regime fiat currency will be measured. It is too late and only printing will henceforth occur from both the Fed and the ECB. Cling tightly to gold until it is ripped from your arms at gunpoint, 'cause I assure you that is more likely outcome than the notion that gold hoarders will someday buy city blocks with a single coin. 

Not in favor of this, mind you, but that is where this is headed, in fact is headed no matter what.  This author's idea is anathema to the Regime.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:04 | 2101494 TzaristBondHolder
TzaristBondHolder's picture

My name says it all - still holding bonds denominated in gold oz issued back before 1900 by Russia through Credit Lyonnais, Rothschild and Barings.  At face value plus coupon this should be worth $500mil today.  Happy to sell for $5k as the Russians defaulted, whilst keeping the gold and the credit rating agencies seem to forget the fact that these loans are outstanding

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:44 | 2101550 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Best to talk with Madoff or Corzine to raise your stakes in return investments.

 

/sarc

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:10 | 2101501 web bot
web bot's picture

If you look at the msm and what's now being touted (just check out cnbs), you're seeing articles like "Could the US Lead the World out of Financial Morass?" ... the shit being touted is breathtaking. We are currently in the eye of the hurricane and all seems well... gold and silver are bubbling up.... we're being set up for a headfake.

When Greece falls (while Portugal is being set up for the next feast), and US banks (despite what Dimon is saying) are sucked down the sewer along with UK and French banks, we'll see silver and gold collapse in a rush for covering and liquidity...

Then get ready for gold and silver's real move... We're in the end game for the US dollar.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:25 | 2101530 Pancho Villa
Pancho Villa's picture

Gold bonds would simply be another form of paper gold. And issued by an entity which has a proven track record of not honoring its promises to redeem its paper for gold!

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 22:38 | 2101544 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

Thank you for voting!

GINGRICH 21.15% (927 votes)

PAUL 36.13% (1,584 votes)

ROMNEY 29.36% (1,287 votes)

SANTORUM 13.37% (586 votes) 

 

http://www.drudgereport.com/

 

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 23:05 | 2101570 billybobtx
billybobtx's picture

The shysters will kick the fiat can for as long as they can...then it collapses like it always does.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 23:13 | 2101578 The trend is yo...
The trend is your friend's picture

if their is a collapse...bankers and politcians will be hung.  Who will want the job of fixing things.  They know their fate if they get it wrong

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 23:15 | 2101582 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

EU bans Iranian oil imports - Watch Video

Shiver me timbers, we have another terrorist group of blokes who want to ditch the Federal Reserve Petrodollar Recycling Program.

Recycling Petrodollars

http://www.newyorkfed.org/newsevents/news/research/2007/rp070103.html 

That bloke lives in our Whitehouse, Keystone project nicked. FYI  

Brazil, Russia, India And China - BRIC

Continue to dig deep, you'll find your answers.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 23:48 | 2101638 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

Shiver me timbers, we have another terrorist group of blokes who want to ditch the Federal Reserve Petrodollar Recycling Program.

Recycling Petrodollars

***************

Petrodollars are any currency that's used to buy oil-

I'm not sure how that relates to ditching the USD-

From your link-

The authors find that about half of these revenues have been returned to oil-importing countries in the form of purchases of locally produced goods, while the remaining revenues have been used to buy foreign assets. Although it is difficult to determine where the funds are initially invested, the evidence suggests that the bulk are ultimately ending up in the United States.

The study finds notable differences across major oil importers in how petrodollars are recycled. Europe and China have seen a large fraction of their oil payments return to purchase locally produced goods, while the United States and Japan have seen only a small fraction return for this purpose.

As a result, according to the authors, the bulk of the oil revenues used to buy foreign assets has ended up, directly or indirectly, in the United States, helping finance the large U.S. current account deficit.

*******

All this means is that UST's are the only vehicle in the US-for parking excess reserves-

Remember when Dubai tried to buy US sea ports and China tried to buy Unical?

Those proposals were squashed-so about the only investment they can make in the US is treasury paper and I'm sure they do that for some type of currency hedging purposes-

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 01:02 | 2101726 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 


jimmyjames. I'm tired & ready for bed. 

Let me give you a couple of links, by helping you understand IMF SDR.

Currency Amounts in New Special Drawing Rights (SDR) Basket

 SDR Valuation

With effect from January 1, 2011, the IMF has determined that the four currencies that meet the selection criterion for inclusion in the SDR valuation basket will be assigned the following weights based on their roles in international trade and finance:

U.S. dollar 41.9 percent (compared with 44 percent at the 2005 review)

  • Euro 37.4 percent (compared with 34 percent at the 2005 review)
  • Pound sterling 11.3 percent (compared with 11 percent at the 2005 review)
  • Japanese yen 9.4 percent (compared with 11 percent at the 2005 review)

Today, January 26,2012

USD = SDR 0.646772

SDR Interest Rate = 0.12%

 

Drops in [0.646772] into field

http://coinmill.com/SDR_calculator.html#SDR=0.646772 

Do you get it yet??

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 02:12 | 2101804 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

Do you get it yet??

*******************

Get what--I wonder?

I understand the IMF and the SDR's--

What does the currency makeup of the IMF's-SDR's have to do with Petro dollars-or your link about them??

That has nothing to do with trading oil and what the oil exporters do with the currency they receive for oil as your link "explained" -and i have no idea why you would use the IMF currency basket as a reference to it--




Fri, 01/27/2012 - 02:16 | 2101819 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

i'm not as conversant about petrodollars as some here

so i'm asking this as a question, b/c i'm having trouble evaluating one of your statements, ok?

(paste):  Remember when Dubai tried to buy US sea ports and China tried to buy Unical?  Those proposals were squashed-so about the only investment they can make in the US is treasury paper

what other investments can the chinese make w/ their petrodollars, j_j?  these things are traded and faded 8 ways from sunday in various paper and rate markets and i think you may be oversimplifying

when i look at the whole picture, i'm not all that conversant about how this "system" works, so i guess i'm asking you to re-examine the "choices" if there is a "surplus" for one of these "countries" in "petrodollars"

b/c if this isn't correct, i don't think you should assert it, that's all

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 04:09 | 2101885 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

b/c if this isn't correct, i don't think you should assert it, that's all

************

If it wasn't correct-I wouldn't post it-

 

(paste): Remember when Dubai tried to buy US sea ports and China tried to buy Unical? Those proposals were squashed-so about the only investment they can make in the US is treasury paper

what other investments can the chinese make w/ their petrodollars, j_j?

Is The Chinese Government Secretly Buying U.S. Treasuries Through The UK?

US assets. Those assets could be dollar reserves, treasuries, investments in US companies, US property, or US equities. Remember when China tried to buy Unocal, a petroleum producer, for $18.4 billion? The state department nixed the idea as a security risk.

http://read.bi/xCcAdC

*********************

Point In February, Dubai Ports World tried to buy several major U.S. ports from their British owner, but the deal was scotched over concerns Arabs might not keep them adequately secure. Never mind the U.S. couldn't keep them adequately secure.

http://www.bitpipe.com/detail/RES/1157622294_261.html

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 13:58 | 2103041 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

you didn't understand me

if suzy's mom won't let her buy the lo-cut blouse, it doesn't mean that suzy can't get a blouse, does it?

no, of course not!

i know these cases where suzy couldn't buy the blouse she wanted!  i wasn't asking you about them

you can't understand what i'm saying?

your "facts are correct" but what you are "extrapolationg and concluding" from them are not

these countries CAN inmvest here thru their companies or combines, or as individual nationals, but they were not allowed to but these specific things

you are not thinking straight, and like so many here, just can't consider the possibility that b/c you know these stories, does not mean you can reason correctly about them.  suzy can still buy a blouse in the US, just not THAT one!  so the FACT that they couldn't buy a port doesn't mean they can't buy something else, like when the japanese bought  pebbleBeachGolfCourse.  that was fine

i tried to be nice, j_j, but you couldn't understand me

you fail reading comprehension: F      logic:  F

you are trolling  year-old "news" as if readers are styoooopid and don't know these cases, and forming unsupported conclusions from these facts

i wasn't questioning or disputing the facts, but your "reasoning" from them

you re-asseerted the facts!  jeeez!  what more can i say here?  well maybe i should indicate to you that doing this frequently would indicate you are not capable of functioning here and the next time i see you trolling like this this, with BULLSHIT reasoning (not bullshit facts), you are gonna get a brand new asshole from slewie!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 14:26 | 2103224 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

you re-asseerted the facts!  jeeez!  what more can i say here?  well maybe i should indicate to you that doing this frequently would indicate you are not capable of functioning here and the next time i see you trolling like this this, with BULLSHIT reasoning (not bullshit facts), you are gonna get a brand new asshole from slewie!

*************

KMA -the only one who doesn't understand the topic of the "Petrodollar" is you and how could anyone understand any of your shitdrivel?

It doesn't matter that the reports is a few years old-it's what happened and if you had any reading comprehension you would have understood that-

Point out "where" since that report that any foreign country has made a significant "purchase" of US properties-not an "investment" in some company-which anyone can do-

A golf course? for fuck sakes-

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 14:40 | 2103270 jimmyjames
jimmyjames's picture

BULLSHIT reasoning (not bullshit facts), you are gonna get a brand new asshole from slewie!

*************

I'm waiting for my ass chewing from you grasshopper-

Many proposed Chinese deals in the overseas market have been blocked by national security or technology issues, Lin said. The Chinese telecom giant Huawei has repeatedly been rebuffed from making deals in the United States over security concerns during the past few years.

In the latest outcry, China's Zhejiang Youngman Lotus Automobile and Pang Da Automobile Trade Co. were rejected in a deal to purchase Swedish automaker Saab, as Saab's former parent company GM refused the technology license transfers.

http://www.china.org.cn/business/2011-12/29/content_24278085.htm

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 02:00 | 2101805 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

as long as nobody starts shooting, we can get thru a lot, peacefully

so don't start shooting, ok?  L0L!!!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 00:38 | 2101617 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture

 

 

The government can debase the currency and thereby be able to pay off its astronomical debt in cheaper dollars.

The entire article is bullshit. It's based on the false premise quoted above and makes several incredibly stupid assumptions.

The government has no intention of paying off its debt.  They can't even cut spending enough to live on tax receipts, much less start paying off debt.

Buying gold bonds is simply selling your gold to the government.  Nobody smart enough to own gold wants to sell it to the government.

Any gold taken in with these bonds would simply be used to collateralize more debt.

No, that's not right either.  The government can borrow all the money it wants from the Fed without any collateral.  Gold taken in with these bonds would end up in some banker's private stash.

You would never get any gold back, interest and principal would be paid in fiat currency. If the bond says you get back X ounces of gold, they'd simply change the law to pay it off in fiat currency ...you know, like COMEX does on gold futures standing for delivery.

You wouldn't get back near the value you gave when buying such bonds.  Fiat currency continues losing value during the life of the bond ...as the author points out.

And no, they wouldn't adjust the amount of fiat currency you get back to reflect the rising price of gold.  It would be the price of gold when you bought the bond.  That's how bonds work. 

All of this is designed to get gold to circulate once again as money.

Then fuck your dumbass "gold bond" idea, and simply declare gold (and silver) as lawful money ...you know, like the constitution says.

Repeal all legal tender laws that force creditors to accept paper.

Never gonna happen.  A fiat currency is the perfect vehicle for stealing people's wealth silently, secretly, without them knowing it. No way is the Fed gonna stop its fiat currency wealth-stealing scam.

Each of these items removes one obstacle for gold to circulate as money, along side the paper currencies.

Fed DOESN'T WANT gold to circulate as money.  You haven't figured that out yet dumbass?

This is one of the DUMBEST articles I've ever seen on ZH. 

Shame on you Tylers for posting such BULLSHIT.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 00:47 | 2101712 Renfield
Renfield's picture

Agree Cranky Old Geezer. I gave that piece a 1.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 03:52 | 2101874 jomama
jomama's picture

The government has no intention of paying off its debt.  They can't even cut spending enough to live on tax receipts, much less start paying off debt.

pretty sure that's why it got posted.  poster apparently needs to work on his sarcasm.

Thu, 01/26/2012 - 23:38 | 2101621 UnpatrioticHoarder
UnpatrioticHoarder's picture

A good pick by Tyler.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 01:50 | 2101647 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

472 BiCheZ!

there is sure a lot to think about here!

i read the former article about inflation, not today, and when i finished, i remember thinking:  you prob couldn't find 3 people who would agree on a definition, anyhow, even if they were able to agree it was "always & everywhere a monetary phenomenon"

so i figured it was like the supremes on porn:  can't "define" it, but  wowser!

(paste):  Meanwhile, per Bretton Woods, the rest of the world’s central banks use the dollar as if it were gold.  It is their reserve asset, and they pyramid credit in their local currencies on top of it. It is not a bug, but a feature, that debt in this system must grow exponentially.  There is no ultimate extinguisher of debt

maybe i'll understand the argument some day, from both sides.  i can see (kinda) where the Treasury might go for this, but i don't see why tf this would be a good deal for slewie and youie  [and i still have gold (and silver, as per the Constitution) as the "extinguisher of debt", as you will see if you accept the author's assertion that FRNs = FED liabilities, which is fuking definitional]

if i can trade FRNs for phyzZ, why the fuk would i trade any of my (liquid) "assets" (however re-formulated) for a "gold bond" @ "melt"?  i'm gonna buy bullion US coins!  and so are you, i might think

zeroHeads like to think about different systems, like "dean" weiner, here, an intellectual collegue of one of slewie's faves, "the nutty professor" fekete!  so, we get a lot of talk of change.  there is a spectrum of thought about reserves and standards and money "systems"

possiblity of consensus:  0  [as in zeroHedge, BiCheZ!]

and frequently, because of our human "values" i think, we can experience the values and feelings in real time, together, here  L0L!!!  and the frustration around the present value of the probability of consensus

just figuring half the people are half as nuts as you are, and horror would be an improvement!  trust me! 

so, in defending myself against the absolute necessity of arming myself up the ass and looking religiously forward to when i can resolve this @ high noon on a date TBD, i point out that world-wide, 5 days/week, almost everywhere, people can trade paper for bullion or preferably (for their recogniZability and uniformity) COIINS!!!

the way i see it, pretty much everything else is outa my hands, and that's ok w/ me!  but i'm not gonna advocate any system that doesn't maintain this4 the BiCheZ0fTheWorld.  that is slewie's goldStandard

if people don't want to lend the pols/banksters money in the "markets" just buy some coins!  this is your "arb" between the IOUs from the FED which are legal tender, unlike the elements in the "gold bond transaction" and the fuking iou's from the gooberment:  NEITHER!!! 

we're lucky to have this, here, now and be able to fade these styooooopid mofos and all other counterparty risk with this one transaction

so, at least most of us have this knowledge and understanding in common

be careful of grand theories b/c the mofos are pretty smart

they will test for the most probable theoretical bullshit and design strategies to create "consensus" and there are only a few things that are worth anything as "money" on the globe and this point and as far as i'm concerned after gold & silver, i don't give a shit about the rest.  as this worsens (or is this the bottom  L0L!!!???)  we are gonna get a shitstorm of propwash and bullshit.  since we already have gold and silver coinage we can trade paper for, we might as well enjoy the burn

keep it simple and do what you can, well

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 01:36 | 2101769 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

He forgot to say, "We're in this together."

or

"We need to do it for our children."

or

"...for democrary."

or, to quote Hank Paulson scare tactics,

"To save Western Civilization."

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 02:16 | 2101818 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

Why not Bread bonds? Or silver bonds? Or corn bonds? Or wheat bonds? Or Rice bonds?

 

Because you want to do this, so that the USD price of gold skyrockets.  Greed, plain and simple. As bad, if not worse, than the Federal Reserve and Central Bankers scheme.

 

Just default the whole enchillada and START OVER. Its been done before. It WILL be done again. At least until we move to a moneyless society. Something human beings may, or MAY NOT live to create.

 

Why do the gold horders not want to 'start over', create BLUE USD FRNs instead of Green? Is it becaue China won't accept them as payment?? Nope, you bet your ass they will, and they will accept $1.00 NEW BLUE USD to pay of $1000 or more old GREEN USD's.

 

Why would they accept this?

Because they need US Corn and intellectual property to steal MORE THAN the US needs China to make our toys and steal our inventions.

 

A 'start over' that involves nationalization of US assets both Tangible and InTangible will put the average American where they belong, much, much, much richer than they are today.  All that gold/thorium/coal/nat gas/uranium/production capacity and ability/technology and medical advancements?  The United States Of America, BY THE PEOPLE - FOR THE PEOPLE, ALL of those things are OURS and when the middle class is crushed enough to revolt, it will ALL be taken back from the 1% and returned to its RIGHTFUL owners.

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 02:34 | 2101834 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

hey bill_?!

i don't want to argue about your right to feel as you do about what is going down

i tried to say that in the post just above

a lot of us have been working with some of the ideas you bring out, here, and these ideas are worth thinking about!

if you don't like the paper and the blue & green and the "fights about rights" and the constant "armegeddon", why not just buy gold and silver COIINS?

as an individual with everything in FRN "liabilities" and various paper "promises", isn't that about that best that you or i can do with out "paper wealth" right now?

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 03:59 | 2101882 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

"Why would they accept this?

Because they need US Corn and intellectual property to steal MORE THAN the US needs China to make our toys and steal our inventions."

Is it really theft if we are giving it too them?

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 04:33 | 2101893 aleph0
aleph0's picture

All well and good , except for the most important point :

Never underestimate the ingenuity and ability of Govts./Politicans/Lobbyists & Bankstas to find new ways to cheat the system...
... as they have been doing for centuries irrespective of a Gold standard or not.

More important than implementing a new monetary system, is  implementing  a new political system first IMO.
... afterwhich you can then "safely" implement the new  monetary system.

Direct Democracy is a start , similar to Switzerland.
Personally I would like to see something even a little stronger than that which the Swiss have.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:45 | 2101935 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

Thumbs up Aleph0. The Construct for the global governance model competition has begun. Some players are already in to compete prior to the official announcement.

I would like a 12 x 12 model, 144,000 representatives. For now a 5d model or five branches of government may suffice. Good luck to all representative competitors from all nations! See you soon ;)

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 04:33 | 2101895 BlackVoid
BlackVoid's picture

The last thing the big banks and their privatized governments want is the public to own gold.

They would rather face financial armageddon and keep the gold.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 04:33 | 2101896 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Made me laugh.

The article explains how US citizens came up with their debt fiat money system.

It does it by being wrong and inventing a fabled past.

The 19th century US of A farmer was an element of a Ponzi: tomorrow, more Indian lands to transfer.

He did not produce more than he consumed (an impossibility)

He simply balanced out his today consumption against the assumption he would be able to consume more tomorrow due to the increased inputs brought by more indian lands to be transfered.

Fiat or physical assets (here land), it does not change one bit. It is the same Ponzi scheme.

The termination of the physical one gave two WW2, it was local to the US of A.

The current one, based on fiat, is global.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:25 | 2101924 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Minor detail : why chose 472 AD as the "fall of Rome" date. Gibbons, when he wrote his masterpiece in 1776, used 476 AD; when Odoacer, magister militum, invaded Italy, defeated Orestes, and deposed Romulus Augustus on September 4, 476 AD, proclaiming himself ruler of Italy, asking Eastern Roman Emperor Zeno to become formal Emperor of combined empires.

/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire.

"From the eighteenth century onward," Glen W. Bowersock has remarked,[1] "we have been obsessed with the fall: it has been valued as an archetype for every perceived decline, and, hence, as a symbol for our own fears." It remains one of the greatest historical questions, and has a tradition rich in scholarly interest....

So...we are heading for 476 and not 1929. Now that is fearsome!

And even the most pessimistic posters here at ZH, amongst whom I would have to place myself, have always said that we are seeing the decomposition of a certain form of capitalism; as a consequence the demise of "pax americana" in the making. To use my own example, I have never in my most profound and amateur rants said something so earth shaking as "its the end of western civilization". End of Atlantic Alliance dominance and hegemony, maybe, as the power equation moves Eastward and SOuthward. But not end of western civilization, as today there is no viable alternative, nor is there a "magister militum" to bring down DC/Rome by invasion. 

Having addressed this societal "gut fear", the crisis and its fall out need to be resolved. I don't think that gold bonds will be enough to save the day. Its a technical solution that will alleviate the pain of a cancerous fiat ponzi that is submerging the real economy. But we need more : we need profound mind set change and power being wrenched from the hands of the corrupt and compromised. How we achieve this or fail to do so may determine if indeed 476 is a looming horizon for the West... I like to think the people learn from pain and one day the foundations of our institutions will prevail. But these are ominous tipping point moments in the making, as the very financial blood of this capitalistic world construct is corrupted.

Back to square one : Rebuild political construct from bottom to top!

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:29 | 2101928 tim73
tim73's picture

"The root cause of our monetary disease has its origins in the creation of the Fed and other central banks prior to World War I"

Bank of Amsterdam: 1604, Central bank of Sweden: 1664, BOE: 1694, Bank of France: 1800

Is that "prior to WWI"? This article is so typical American bullshit. Everything is supposedly related to USA and FED 1913 and anything else is irrelevant, especially things happening much earlier...

 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:36 | 2101929 Raging Debate
Raging Debate's picture

When confidence wanes in a paper currency, it is time to anchor in PM's. It is cyclical behavior, perhaps 40 years on PM anchor, 40 off or the cycle can and should be studied as to how or how not to apply brakes on tge economy.

The petro dollar was a 40 year standard. Oil is or isn't a currency? Gold is but oil is not? Why or why not? Prices fluxuate for both, that is fact and what I see commentators discussing and what the value should or shouldnt be. Some may be talking their own book, acted prudent and ha e and will continue finding some rewards by holding PM's. But I find it hard to argue that oil has had little impact toward PM prices.

What would you rather have today, a peanut butter sandwich or a lump of gold? I know I am generalizing. I liked comments that memtion belief systems in a currency or a 'pledge' as to what a nation represents.

I will fight for EVERY person on earth and that may or may not include competing fairly. Let's keep pushing for an X prize of government while at it, for there were crimes committer in the last cycle, big time. I can forgive but it may behoove us to realize some fine tuning in the governance model making it 5d including banking as a branch. It is just my opinion but it seems nearly all abuses from banking stem from being private instead of public.

For this cycl

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:38 | 2101930 tim73
tim73's picture

A Chinese company called Chinatungsten is advertising imitation Gold merchandise on its website. The following quote is taken directly from their Tungsten Alloy for Gold Substitution page:  "a coin with a tungsten center and gold all around it could not be detected as counterfeit by density measurement alone ... We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products."

So much for using gold for everyday use in business...welcome to the 21st century, you goldbugs.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 11:15 | 2102469 prole
prole's picture

People should pay more attention to your warning.

I personally (know someone who) loses sleep over this.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 06:43 | 2101932 Element
Element's picture

I remember seeing a cartoon about this sort of idea ... bankster eventually made more paper than he had gold to cover ... cue pitchforks and dead banker tribe.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 07:27 | 2101958 theyenguy
theyenguy's picture

In write of Fiancial Armageddon in article, A Federal Europe Will Come Out Of A Credit Bust And Global Financial Breakdown 

Capitalism is going to be replaced by true socialism. Wikipedia relates true socialism is an economic system based on direct production of utility rather than on the capitalist laws of accumulation and value. Please consider that bible prophecy is being fulfilled in our times. The Sovereign Lord God, Psalm 2:4-5, has ordained current events, as a means of reveling the sovereignty of His Son, Revelation 2:6-7.

The credit based fiat system known as Neoliberalism is entering a debt deleveraging cycle. Out of a credit bust, creative destruction will bring forth a diktat based system, that is Neoauthoritarianism, where a Federal Europe will be one component of a ten toed kingdom of regional global governance, as foretold in Daniel 2:31-45.

Fate is operating to replace the Banker Regime with the Beast Regime which is rising out of the profligate Mediterranean Sea nations of Italy and Greece. This monster of statism has seven heads, which will come to occupy in all of mankind’s institutions, and will rule in all of the world’s ten regions, Revelation 13:1-4.

Democracy is giving way to diktat. Out of a soon coming Financial Armageddon, that is a credit bust and global financial collapse, stemming from a Greek Default, a New Constitution and a Deep Restructuring will produce a New Europe. EU leaders will meet in crisis summits and announce regional frame work agreements to establish a United States of Europe, that is a Federal Europe, with the ECB or Bundesbank empowered as Europe’s Bank, and a Fiscal Union to oversee dramatically reduced government spending. A New EU Policy Infrastructure, will feature monetary cardinals, that is regional stake holders, appointed to work for the region’s security and stability. These will provide credit to grease the wheels of economic action and provide coordination of structural economic policies.

The dynamos of growth and profit that powered Neoliberalism, will give way to the dynamos of regional security and stability, that will empower Neoauthoritarianism. Regionalization is the Clarion Call of the 300 elite who met in 1974 at the Club of Rome. Their Call is clear, distinctive and ringing for regional global governance to replace democracy, at a time when destructionism replaces inflationism, as the global dynamic of political and economic activity. Ten regional blocs will coalesce to form a ten toed kingdom of regional global governance, characterized by a miry mixture of clay democracy and iron diktat, featuring dollar restriction zones, and un-dollar transactions, such as bartering and the exchange of local currencies as is communicated in the Robert Wenzel Economic Policy Journal, Marin Katusa, Lew Rockwell, article The Demise Of The Petro Dollar. The global hegemony of the UK and the US will soon be history.

Revelation 6:1-2 relates Look! And See! God has sent the First Horseman, riding on the white horse; he has a bow without any arrows, to pass the baton of sovereignty to new sovereigns, that is the EU ECB and IMF Troika, giving them sovereign authority over all of the Euro zone. Fate, not any human action, will also soon open the curtains, and onto the world’s stage, will step the most credible of leaders. A seemingly Little Authority, Daniel 7:24-25, will come to be known as the Sovereign, Revelation 13:1-4, and together with his banking partner, The Seignior, Revelation 13:5-10, will change our times and laws, Daniel 7:25. By working in the schemes of regional framework agreements, they will make sweeping economic and political changes. Their word, will and way, will replace the rule of law, and provide the seigniorage of diktat, replacing the seigniorage of neo liberal credit. They will lead Germany to become preeminent in a type of revived Roman Empire.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 07:33 | 2101962 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Anyone that "buys" into such a system is gonna have to have an enormous amount of faith (or guns!) to "trust" such a system.

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 09:06 | 2102064 scrappy
scrappy's picture

I his definition of inflation as it is now, and really like that he recognizes the utility of the "real bills doctrine."

 

We may very well need it in the not so distant future.

Regarding gold, because of its finite supply, I am skeptical it is the end all be all. Silver too for that matter because of supply constraints compared to population growth and productivity, but it is certainly necessary at some level for confidence reasons when trust is low, like now.

(Our land - resources, and promise of productivity - innovation, etc. counts too)

Plus we need both for industrial scientific use more and more.

It is also intervention in supposedly "free" commodity markets.

Here are some articles for you to consider.

https://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/libertarian-monetary-policy/

https://libertyrevival.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/ending-poverty-and-political-...

http://www.landandliberty.net/economics/henry-george%E2%80%99s-view-on-money/

This simplifies my point.

http://www.henrygeorge.org/isms.htm

The author talks about how the money commodity is infinitely divisible.  

OK, so in the real world “we set a price” or the “free market” sets one, and at that moment, those who hold gold / silver, are in the catbird seat. Now when we need to divide it further for the sake of money supply – velocity, those who want – need it, get less.  How is that even remotely fair?  What kind of society would that lead to?

Answer – Neofuedalism.

It is deflationary. 

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 11:52 | 2102595 tony bonn
tony bonn's picture

your article is an outstanding contribution to outside the box thinking about gold and our economic crisis - a contribution indeed anticipated by antal fekete's outstanding thoughts.

you hit upon the most important aspect of gold which is its flow - not its stocks which is a very mercantilist way of looking at gold.....and fortunately for us that is important since the usa has no stocks....

i will repeat yet again that gold is in severe and permanent backwardation a situation which cannot be divined by the fake paper price of gold....

as you note, this proposal will not fly because the rockefeller-mic-yale-cia creeps will fight it tooth and nail.....but do not shy away from the fight....vox populi will in time become vox dei and these wicked shits will be vanquished....

Fri, 01/27/2012 - 13:32 | 2102906 Xue
Xue's picture

Gold oz: 2263.65 Euro

check goldprice.org

Can someone explain this for me? or is it a bug?

http://imageshack.us/content_round.php?page=done&l=img811/8064/eurogold0...

 

 

Sun, 01/29/2012 - 07:05 | 2106950 AE911Truth
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