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Guest Post: Government Employees, Unions, And Bankruptcy
Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada,
During an economic boom, exuberance finds itself lodged in all types of industries. When profits soar, so does the public’s disregard for prudence. And as tax revenues rise, politicians can’t help but give in to their bread and butter of buying votes. Periods of accelerated economic growth typically come in two different forms. If capital is drawn from a pool of real savings to finance investment in more efficient forms of production, the boost in wages and income will be sustainable as long as consumers remain willing to purchase whatever is being produced in greater amounts. In the case of a credit-expansion boom fueled primarily by fractional reserve banking and interest rate manipulation through a central bank, the boom conditions are destined toward bust. Liquidation then becomes necessary as the bust gets underway and malinvestments come to light.
For private industry it means slashing costs, laying off workers, and possible bankruptcy to discharge debt. For government, it typically means shoring up the lost revenue due to unemployment by raising taxes and promising to cut spending by some significant amount. Usually those promised cuts never come to fruition. Political reelection hinges too much upon filling the pockets of voter blocs. When private enterprise tightens its belt, the state hardly bats an eye since its revenue is dependent on how much it decides to fleece from taxpayers in any given year.
Some levels of government aren’t so lucky however. Without ready access to a printing press or eager creditors, local municipalities in the U.S. are facing tough choices as the Great Recession drags on. Unable to cope with the rising cost of providing public services, many cities are taking drastic action. Three major cities in California have recenlty declared bankruptcy; including San Bernardino which is the second largest city to do so in recent history. The city council of Detroit, which is facing about $12 billion in pension and benefit obligations, has voted to allow a state advisory board to assist the former manufacturing powerhouse grapple with a fiscal future that is anything but promising. North Las Vegas, Nevada is facing the same kind of hurdle with a gaping $30 million budget deficit. According to Mayor Sharon Buck, “We’ve balanced our budget, we’ve paid all of our bills [and] all of our bonds are paid…Our biggest issue is salaries and compensation and benefits. And they’re very unsustainable.” Most recently, the mayor of Scranton, Pennsylvania cut the wages of city workers to the state’s minimum wage of $7.25 an hour. The unions which represent the city’s firefighters, police officers, and other public workers are taking the issue to court.
In carrying out such a drastic pay cut, Mayor Chris Doherty defied a previous court order. The unions’ attorney called the defiance “incredible.” The president of the International Association of Fire Fighters, Local 60, lamented that “there are kids working at ice cream stands earning more than their fathers, which is ridiculous.”
In actuality, there is nothing ridiculous about Mayor Doherty’s behavior. The city is out of money to pay its workers. After riding the taxpayer-funded gravy train, the trip has come to an abrupt end. The mayor can’t pay money he doesn’t have. In his words “I can’t print it in the basement.”
But to this writer, Doherty didn’t go far enough in cutting the pay of city workers. In a just world, public sector workers would be paid the rightful amount equal to their contribution to society: zero dollars an hour. If production is to entail mutual exchange and careful consideration toward profit and loss accounting, then government produces nothing without a negative effect on some individuals. The government worker is paid solely through whatever funds were forcefully taken from actual producers of wealth. The kid working in an ice cream stand whom the president of the firefighter’s union referred to is providing a valued service to society. His pay is based off of whatever marginal revenue he brings in. The firefighter paid by tax dollars is a functioning leech whose pay is totally separated from any measure of consumer satisfaction. Government workers have little, if any, incentive to serve the public in an efficient or convenient manner. In America, police have no legal obligation to assist you. And if you think the local fire company will be there at your beck and call, just ask Gene Cranick of Tennessee who watched his house burn down with fire crews standing by as he neglected to pay a $75 dollar fee beforehand. The selfless civil servants simply watched the spectacle of a man’s home being destroyed even as Cranick offered to pay the fee for service right then and there. Compare this to the private, for-profit firefighting that existed in many towns in 19th century America. As urban historian Mark Tebeau describes it in an interview with NPR’s Robert Siegel nearly two years ago:
SIEGEL: Now, I read this today – and you tell me if there’s any truth to it -that sometimes competitive fire brigades in their zeal to be the one to put out fire, maybe to get an award or be backed by an insurer, might actually have played a little defense against another competing fire company.
Prof. TEBEAU: Yeah. They would race to the fires. This reflected community tensions of the era, as well as a sort of manly pride in being first not only to get to the scene, but first to put the fire out.
No doubt Cranick, who found himself on the wrong end of government’s over-bureaucratization, would have jumped for joy at the prospect of multiple fire brigades rushing to save his home.
By virtue of its monopoly on coercion, the public sector exists wholeheartedly at the expense of society. Worse are the unions that piggyback off this extortion and kick taxpayers in the gut even harder just to take a few extra dollars out of their wallets. Unions remain empowered through their government-granted privilege of forcing employers to bargain with them; including the various levels of government. But this only scratches the surface to the despicable nature of both private sector and public sector unions. As libertarian economist Walter Block notes:
Yes, unions are disgusting and repulsive institutions, as the right side of the political spectrum properly emphasizes. They restrict entry into the labor market, and either beat up potential competitors who they characterize as “scabs” (where are the politically correct opponents of hate speech when we need them?), and/or get the government to do this evil deed for them, via legislation such as the Wagner Act which forbids employers from hiring replacement workers on a permanent basis.
What the city of Scranton has in common with San Bernardino, Detroit, et al. is that its dire fiscal condition is due to one thing and one thing only: benefits promised to unionized workers. For decades, public sector workers and their professionally dressed cohorts in plunder known as union representatives have operated under the fallacious assumption that government is the gift that never stops giving. But in today’s environment of economic stagnation, their dreams of living off of stolen fruits of labor are thankfully starting to represent reality. Whole countries in the European Union are beginning to crumble under the weight of their bloated government workforces and entitlement programs. American cities are currently facing up to the extravagant benefits promised to public workers. In a mater of years, Illinois and California will likely follow.
To quote Pat Buchanan,” The salad days of the government employee are coming to an end, as they have already in Greece, Italy and Spain.” To those sick and tired of the tax-eater mentality that is destroying the very core of society’s productive capacity and moral base, those days can’t come soon enough.
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EDIT: Fuck this thread.
Someday your democrap overlords will do something about it, Lol.
I submit that you miss the point and aim at the wrong target. I am not bashing the people who work at any of those jobs. I am bashing government-union cronyism that is breaking the bank.
I also oppose any cronyism in any other area such as finance, banking, farm subsidies, etc. It is breaking the back of this nation to support the political class. You morons always aim at the wrong things and support those who will enslave you promising to "get even" with whomever you hate. Collectivism 101.
Right-wingers and libertarians are to blame?
The mayor of Scranton who reduced all public union employees to minimum wage is a Democrat. Scranton has billed itself as "Pennsylvania's Progressive City": Scranton has been and is a Democratic stronghold. High taxes, lack of jobs, and and its overall erosion drove its tax base out of the city. [I think the number of people still living there has been halved since the 70's.]
I listened to an author last night who talked about four Ohio cities going bankrupt because of public pensions and salaries. In some cases it exceeds the entire city annual revenues.
Enough, I say. This is the result of the bureaucratic permission state. We hire and pay our oppressors more than we earn to get their permission to function and live.
Union Bosses stop serving working people when they cut a deal to allow outsourcing of american manufacturing base in return for whatever enormous sums of money they retained, including the right to keep workers unionized at various levels.
if you cannot stop outsourcing you have no right to claim your union serves working people. it serves union members , not working people.
eww. pat buchanan. you're not gonna win friends and influence neighbors quoting that sack of shit.
Pat is an old-school conservative of the best type- not these NeoCon Big Gov a-holes of today
He is a political hack who will do and say anything to make a buck. WTF, how come you are so stupid not to realize when you are being played. It will be so nice when the SHTF in order to cleanse the gene pool of some of the ignorant fucks that post on here.
" It will be so nice when the SHTF in order to cleanse the gene pool of some of the ignorant fucks that post on here."
Yea, all those progressive youths and hippies wearing hemp t-shirts and carrying scary "Give me free healthcare" signs are going to be deadly, as will the checkered-pants country club Repubs demanding personal assistants wipe their ass and have never touched anything dirtier than a coke-lined $100 bill when SHTF...
Sorry, I think folks that have spent considerable time learning to defend themselves, to the point they can field-strip a semi-automatic in under 20-seconds and are close to a 1 MOA at 100 yards will be fine when SHTF. Sorry kid, violence isn't as easy as MW3 would make you believe.
Right on brother. But I think you lost him somewhere between "field strip" and "1 MOA". Let me help him:
Field Strip: Clean the big parts without taking it apart to the little parts
1 MOA: Small smiley face on your forehead at 100 yards
He's just another power-hungry partisan puppet.
The world is teetering on the brink of collapse due to rampant corruption by governments (incl. regulators), companies (primarily financial ones), and unions. I have no problem with private sector unions. But public sector ones are a contradiction of terms. Public workers are expected to trade lower wages for excellent benefits and stability. Now they will have neither. The world is going "Mad Max" at an increasing rate. Just in today from Florida for your perusal. Be careful when you go to Wal Mart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKoU59VXMOM
Welcome to Obamaville.
To be fair, he's just the last in a long line of Assholevilles.
I would add that the vast majority of your public "servants" also produce nothing of any economic value? They are in fact a dead weight loss. Worse than that they actually impair your ability to get things done. Those who may produce something do it at twice the cost, half the speed and lower quality. Remember, the Post Office could not do overnight mail with 400 years of "expertise". A private individual had to do it.
I have a friend who is trying to move his restaurant across the street to a smaller and cheaper spot. It has been six months of various plans, inspectors, modifications, grease pit specs, certifications, approvals and dead ends where no one knows what to do or who is responsible for things at the city level. This is Obama's helping hand of government, I guess.
What the hell does Obama have to do with moving a restaurant? Those are all local laws enacted by people elected by you and your neighbors. Blame yourselves.
obviously nothing as that takes real work and would interupt his golf career. The reference was for Obamas recent hate speech against business owners where he said it takes the helping hand of govt to make business work. What a crock. You're a crock.
In a just world, such stupidity would not be tolerated and readers would not waste their precious time being exposed to this kind of grade-AAA bullshit.
Unbelievable drivel!
Can't downvote you because you used italics.
Vote this up if you think he's a moron.
Here's an example that even you shall understand: Doc is in private practice, makes money, works hard bla bla bla.
One day, said doc decide to go work for the VA. Are you fucking telling me that he should now work for free just because the asshole from LVM Canada said so? Suddenly, all the skills, experience and knowldge ain't worth shit just because he's now in the public secotr?
And you call me moron, piece of fuck??
BTW, the above example is NOT hypothetical: it happen quite often.
But do not let facts get in the way of your beliefs. Do write to your Senator and congressperson to abolish the wages of the physicians who works in the VA. After all, their work is worth zero dollars, right?
Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth, asshole.
I really don't expect you to understand... Because you're a moron.
You're right we shouldn't be exposed to AAA bullshit, and yet you chose to post your thought anyway.
Liberty bitches! ...That's a pun.
Reading 101 you should learn before posting.
Stay in control of your hormones and focus on the quote I had a gripe about. The proposition that any worker in the public sector is not entitled to ANY wage (zero dollars) just because he/she works in the public sector is beyond stupid.
And you got a problem with that?
You're trying to put your filthy fucking words in my mouth again, asshole. If we were in public I'd bitch slap you until you were a blubbering mass of dogshit.
I am for competitive bidding on all taxpayer expropriated funds for public services. If that isn't an option, all public workers should handle their own retirement/benefits and get paid 30% less than the private sector because they have something a private employer will not guarantee: JOB SECURITY.
But that isn't the case now is it? We have public fucking union members bribing politicians to give them jobs which pay far above the private sector and benefits/pensions private sector workers can only fucking dream of! On top of that they jam their last year to max out their retirement (that they take decades before the private sector), scam disability, etc. etc.... Not to mention the Federal workers will be the last to go because they are closest to the fucking printing presses.
GO
FUCK
YOURSELF
YOU
STUPID
FUCKING
ASSHOLE
lrn2downvote:
In case of italics, position the mouse several pixels below the down arrow, you will see the mouse cursor change from an arrow. It's a very tiny area but it's obviously there, it's like the clitoris. Just keep poking at it and you'll find it, again like the clitoris. Just trying to make the point that NS is a c*nt.
I can't find this clitoris you speak of.
Checking Snopes to see if this is an urban legend
If you can't find the clitoris, don't even bother looking for the "G" spot.
Off topic.....
...........STOP CHEMTRAIL SPRAYING.....................
.................CHEMTRAIL.COM will get you going started on the know if you are unaware.
Full on assault again today where I am.
FUCK YOU's...!!!...chemsprayers.
eat shit and die, moron trooper semper fuck
We're talking here about PUBLIC sector Unions. Remember also that CENTRAL Government employees are NOT Unionised, nor did Obama make any attempt to change this during his first 2 years when he has total control of Congress. It's just another example of our scumbag pols not caring about spending someone else's dime, especially if it gets votes. The public sector should not be unionised, period.
Hate to break this to you, but there's a shitload of Federal employee unions e.g. NFFE, NTEU, AFGE, etc.
True, but not in general. And I don't believe that even these have collective bargaining rights?
Too tired to dig into it, but I will assume they do until shown otherwise.
Fuck a bunch of tax eaters, goobermint employees, corporate welfare pigs, war pigs, section 8, the lot. Fuck them.
Roger that. And I would of course stand corrected if wrong.
I am an AFGE member. I do not know about elsewhere, but the one I am a member of in Oklahoma City, is a non-bargaining union. Also a non-striking union. Guess that is one-and-the-same? Honestly do not know, do not follow the union's politics that closely. Could not care less one-way-or-the-other, I just go do my job every day, come home and start drinking amd smokin cigars. ;-)
I work on military aircraft. Navy aircraft. Called SLEP: Service Life Extension Program. Trying to extend the life of existing aircraft so the Navy does not have to buy new ones. Until 2045 in any event. ;-) I suspect that is useful, the cost of new aircraft would far exceed the cost of making the current ones last longer. These aircraft communicate with nucular (LOL) submarines, of the ballistic missile variety. Believe me, what I know of their mission, we want them out there doing it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_E-6_Mercury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Glass_(airplane)
And it's grueling work, whether you choose to believe that or not. Crawling into tiny fuel tanks in the wings to do structural repairs. You should try it sometime, GREAT FUN. If you are fat, you cannot though, the openings in the wing are rather small. So only those in good shape (read skinny) need apply. ;-0
And I do not have great medical benefits. I have had better before working for the US Government. And the cost of those benefits goes up further than any raises we may get (have not had any in two years + now).
I made more money when I worked for Northrup Grumman back inthe 90s. But unfortunately I got laid off when the B-2 program ended. ;-(
When the job is over, it's over. The program I am on is fully funded until the last aircraft leaves sometime late in 2016. And then there may be a SLEP II, according to the Head Engineer. And that would go on until sometime in the early 2020s.
I am 51 now, just 14 more years. 2026.
BTW: Make less than $50,000 a year. "Voluntary" overtime does add to that, but the base rate is less than I made working for Northrup Grumman in the 90s. There were times when I worked there, that I made over $100,000 a year with overtime. Me myself. Now my wife and I barely make that together.
So much for the government workers make more! I also realize that most of you are talking about Desk Jockeys, mostly working for State Governments. I assure you a desk jockey is the last thing I would want to be. I am good with my hands, and prefer using them, to not. Make what you will of that. ;-)
I hear you. Almost all these comments are knee-jerk reactionary crap. Pro or anti union, they fail to make important distinctions.
Many public sector unions are very weak, can't strike, can't hold out for better wages. San Bernardino city employees - except "public safety" employees - have been on a 10% furlough for years. Many jobs have been cut. The unions are powerless to stop any of it. Cost of living increases are frozen. For them, the union exists mostly to protect their jobs from disciplinary actions, often for whistleblowing. Corruption and nepotism are rampant in city management. Check their salaries; it isn't quite Bell, CA, but it's getting close. There is no white collar crime proseuction and no citizen oversight so it continues unabated.
But again, comments boiil down to UNIONS BAD!!! or UNIONS BUILT THIS COUNTRY!!! The issue is more complicated. Wall Street banks screwed municiplaities on bond issues. Voter apathy allows local politicians to remain in office for ages, build a power base with nepotism and cronyism, and get kickbacks on stupid public works projects. Directors that play ball get huge salary packages, hire their friends and family, loot the city coffers, and move to greener pastures before the whole charade collapses.
Public employees are paid too much. Wages are periodically checked against equivalent private sector jobs and other municipalities, and were readjusted during the housing boom and property tax bonanza. Private sector pay has fallen to levels that make government pay look excessive. Pension funds are run by crooks who vastly overstate expected future returns, and pain is inevitable for retiriees. But by all means, keep up the low brow commentary.
BS they do it all the time.
My base salary in the private sector is only 40k. My pay is substantially more because I share in the profits that I produce for my company. While the company matches 3% Into my 401k they are not mandated to do so. My pension is not guaranteed by PBGC. In order to stay competitive I have put in 400 (since 3rd quarter) hours of my personal time to get an industry certification. I have no idea if I will pass this test the first time. If I do not I will probably put in another 200 hours. There are no guarantees. I pay for half of medical. I work at night and in the morning depending on client need. I do not have time for a part time job. My only chance at a decent retirement is if I manage my401k correctly. I will not qualify for the college credits because of my AGI.
Fyi
Good luck with the 401k. You can keep what the bankers don't steal.
The irony of "self-financed" retirement investment. They're all gonna be sucked dry in the eventual sell-off . . . and we know damn well who will walk away with the gains.
Free market, baby!
Here is the problem: You can't have a public sector with better benefits, pay and retirement than the taxpayers who are supporting it. The model does'nt work. Someone forgot to tell AFSECME members that.
You also can't have a public sector that functions universally over such a culturally diverse nation as the U.S. If only the founders had broken it up into smaller semi-autonomous states...
The public sector was smart enough to stay unionized; the private sector unions were all smashed. And of course, being unionised means you get all the benefits of a collective negotiating position.
There's plenty of money in the system, but its going to corporate profits not workers wages.
The 'smart' public sector unions are finding more and more of their members out of work because fewer and fewer government entites can afford them anymore. They're having to renegotiate their contracts, accept layoffs, and contribute more to their health insurance policies and retirement benefits. In fact they've been so so clever that the officials to whom they make the heftiest contributions, either forced or voluntary, for re-election are making the most startling changes to their overall benefits, ie, the mayor of Scranton, the govenor of New York, the mayor of Chicago etc. They will continue to lockstep vote Democrat despite this because, well, they're just so damned smart.
Well said. Over time this is going to play out on a local and state level as government entities have to decide if they're going to honor the public union retirees' contracts or hire new public union employees, or renegotiate their contracts so they can do both on a much more minimal basis. This is already happening all over the country, regardless if the person having to make these decisions is an R or D. The tax base of Scranton has literally moved out of the area in an attempt to unshackles themselves from high taxes. There are very few people [comparatively] in Scranton left to pay for the wages and benefits of the public unions. Harrisburg, the capitol of PA, declared bankruptcy although that move was blocked by the state legislature. It could not afford to honor the contracts of public unions nor pay for the retirement packages of retired public union employees.
On a federal level we have the USPS who is about as valuable as putting horse shoes on a Lamborghini. I don't know about you but when I pick up the mail I stand at the trash can and throw most of it out. The rest is a paper copy of information I've already received via the internet. The USPS is being crushed under the weight of wages and retirement packages of the unions as it find itself completely redundant to services already provided. This is why so many USPS stations are being closed and contract renegotiation is a constant process.
Simply put, Americans can't afford them anymore.
"In America, police have no legal obligation to assist you. And if you think the local fire company will be there at your beck and call, just ask Gene Cranick of Tennessee who watched his house burn down with fire crews standing by as he neglected to pay a $75 dollar fee beforehand. The selfless civil servants simply watched the spectacle of a man’s home being destroyed even as Cranick offered to pay the fee for service right then and there."
These firemen should have been fired. The unions encouraged them to do the wrong thing.
Go back to Jellystone Park Yogibear. You make a blanket definitive statement which applies to ONE case in Colorado out of 175,000 state and local agencies nationwide. Inflamatory bullshit. Pull a copy of the actual call report on that fire while you're at it instead of a distorted MSM report that shows a microscopic scintilla of the actual facts. Red arrow for you.
Here we go, public service union bashing. Yes, there have been excesses in pay and benefits, but those are the vast minority. The real bashing should be reserved for the public service managers, most of which are NOT union. There's just no excuse for bad management! Public service mangement is an epic fail!
yeah- because they just beg to NOT get their automatic 4% cost-of-living increases every year
I do not know about other sectors, but all of us U.S. AF civilians have had our COLAS frozen for over two years now. No big deal to me I assure you. But the cost of our health care coverage goes up further every year than any raises we used to get. I know it is the same everywhere, so as I said, not complaining.
BTW: Not complaining does not mean big bucks. It means no excessive debt. No credit cards. No home equity loans. House payment and two vehicle payments. Vehicles will be paid off 1.5 years early, next June.
can we start with some oversight and accountability first? i'm still trying to understand "a trillion" and that's where i start to doze off. or am "dozed off." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OArZ9N0Ptg8
Fortunately for those printing money, all the zeros can be hypnotic.
What is a trillion dollars?
How about $229T?
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html
overheard my fucking whiny $130k a year officer firefighter (Joliet IL)b-in-law bitch to my mother in law that "He doesn't know if his pension will be cut in half someday"- so it goes from $104k(80%) W/FULL INSURANCE FOR HIM AND HIS P.O.S. WIFE/KIDS down to 52K a year-AND HE CAN RETIRE @ 55! so that means the taxpayers are on the hook for millions for this slug. and this guy is a world-class dildo.
Cut in half in nominal terms...
And then cut in half in purchasing power via inflation (if he's lucky)...
He'll get his.
PATIENCE...
I hope he gets nothing and then they can go live in the new car he buys his c*nt wife every 2 years
What's even more stupid is that guy will keep voting Dim.
He sounds like a perfectly honest guy in comparison to the firefighters that play the overtime pension spike game.
Sun Times in Chi-town has been doing a big story on all the fireman/cops on "disability". what a joke. "Lucky" Richie Daley left the Midget Jew Rahm a real pile of shit.
The only nice thing about Chicago is seeing the skyline as you head into it, south on the I-94.
The city itself is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
So his POS wife, is your wife sister ?
Lol, synchronicity again,
no-he is my wife's brother
So, the POS Wife is your SISTER? Nice family, man.
LOL...maybe you should have been a unionized firefighter, you MORON. And of course, people like you are the FIRST ones to get all dreamy-eyed and patriotic about the "Land of the Free" and the oh-so-wonderful, streets-of-gold capitalist system that your ancestors "fought and died for"...LOL! You should be cheering your brother-in-law for making lots and lots of capital, like a good American capitalist! But wait, I know--it's not fair. He must have "cheated." No, he didn't cheat--he's just a BETTER CAPITALIST than you are! LOL...
Link to the ultimate Government Leach database (Federal and Ohio) - local leaches, school and teachers, College, etc.:
Federal Salaries - put in a name and see what the disease costs you. http://buckeyeinstitute.org/federal-salary
OH I forgot:
Happy Birthday Barack! Sign the card.
Vote Obanmey 2012, Two different piles, same runny shit.
If I bother to vote-which I won't-it will be for Obama-he will get the shit to unravel faster than any false hope with Mittens. Either way we'll be @ war by the next spring
http://buckeyeinstitute.org/federal-salary
Ok, for an added treat try the following: (Danger - after you do the following prepare to stab yourself in the eye with a fork for some needed relief.)
1)Go to the to the link (http://buckeyeinstitute.org/federal-salary)
2) and from the pull down pick your favorite flavor of Leach ("agency").
For example: The ever popular and one-of-the-most essential government agencies: "The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission".
3)from the year pull-down select "2010"
4)from the "salary range" pull-down select "100,000+"
5)from the "Order by" pull-down select "high to low"
6) hit "search"
These are the cheese of the cheese in Ohio (but any other state should be typical).
Now here is fun...
To get an idea how much bodily fluid these "public servants" will suck from you and your children's children (if they are so lucky to have survived the upcoming draft and perpetual Wars to "keep this country great for the elite that milk it".)
7) Take the salary and paste it into the calculator on the left margin on this page: http://buckeyeinstitute.org/state-salary (yeah I know it's State salaries, but you get the general idea)
For example: the top paid essential person from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission makes 137K. Put that in the calculator and this is what you get.
God bless America!
Pension Calculator
3 Highest Paid Salary Years (Average/Year)
Calculate
Yearly Pension Estimate:
$90,420.00
Lifetime Pension Liability Estimate:
$2,042,587.80
3-Year Employer Pension Salary Match:
$57,540.00
Yearly Employer Health Care and Sick Leave Cost:
$11,893.00
Social Security Maximum Yearly Payout:
$28,152.00
Yes but they work so very very very hard, so much harder than the private sector! Where would we be without whoever those fucks are.
This is all Obamney's fault.
I plan on voting for Robama instead.
"But to this writer, Doherty didn’t go far enough in cutting the pay of city workers. In a just world, public sector workers would be paid the rightful amount equal to their contribution to society: zero dollars an hour."
To my mind, the author lost at least some of his credibility here.
While we are in a nasty, nasty time- one that I, for one, would rather not live in, it's simply stupid to make the statement that city workers are worth nothing. It's true enough that some of them are worth nearly nothing.... but at the end of the day, we do live in a system where city workers plow the roads and do the maintainance on the local traffic lights.
Our Constitution was designed and implemented in such a way that it limited the power of the Federal government, while allowing local municipalities the ability to make specific geographic regulations possible by referendum. In reality, if a referendum were to come up in my town that asked me to vote on whether or not city employees should plow the streets, I would vote "yes," knowing full well that that vote could increase my property taxes. Where I live, there is no realistic alternative- but the crux of the matter is that I do not presume to make my decision binding for people living in (for example) Florida- it is a local issue to be decided by the local residents. For me, the guy driving that plow truck is not making a negative, or even neutral, impact on my life- he is making it possible for me to get to work that day.
I am all for limiting the ability of public unions to vote themselves largess that they later use to bribe the government, but at the end of the day a guy driving a plow truck is just doing a job like any other wage slave- I am not about to claim that he should not be paid for his work. While I do support Governor Walker as a resident of Wisconsin, I would not go so far as to claim that no muncipal employee is entitled to a living wage. There is a great deal of static here that needs to be cleared up. When a man performs a job effectively, he deserves his wage for doing so- my objection is to paying beaucrats and lobbyists to do nothing but draw a paycheck and pension because they won a popularity contest.
The goal here, to my mind, is not to eliminate all forms of government. That could be a theoretical end-game, but American society has nothing in place that could make that work. A damn fine middle ground would be to cut Federal intervention out of daily life, and to allow localities to make decisions regarding how their tax money should be used.
I agree that there are certain services our local government provides and they do a pretty good job at it,and I believe those workers should be fairly compensated. But the problem with the public unions is that they demand far more than they could earn in the private sector as far as wages and benefits go. They even take it to the point of being ridiculous. It isn't right that some poor private sector schlub should be working until they are 70 making less than a public sector employee who is retired at 55. And to make matters worse that poor private sector person is the one who is funding the public sector person's retirement.
Agreed-
To put it more plainly- the idiots who drove us into this ditch are rediculous, but that doesn't mean we need to be equally rediculous in the opposite direction for disagreement's sake.
It's a problem of black and white -isms in a grayish world. A lot of problems could be solved by simply allowing local populations to sort things out for themsleves. There is a lot of scale mixing going on in these debates, when the problems are largely Federal in nature. If Iowa wants to implement a ban on open-toed shoes, it's none of my concern or business- it only becomes my business when they tell me we have to enforce it in my town.
Allowing states their rights solves a lot of problems- if you don't like the way they do things in Minnesota, by all means, move to Texas. A system like that picks it's own winners and losers, unlike the system we have now- where we're all slaves from sea to soiled sea.
Bingo.
A return to a true Constitutional Republic would sort this out in a hurry.
The problem is because of the unions, taxpayers are unable to weed out those public union employees who are productive versus those that are not. The teachers' unions are a prime example. They exist to protect horrible teachers from being fired and to negotiate wages based on the assumption that they're all productive, which we know they are not. They are reaping what they sowed.
A breath of fresh air. Finally someone who gets it. We, as a society, have too easily given up our rights. The solution is local.
I can see the world according to the author's point of view.
Future Headline:
JP Morgan to enter into joint partnership with Walmart to provide fire and police services as well as fire and life insurance.
I feel safer already.
yeah-because there were no cops or fireman before they were paid big 6 figure a year salaries with your tax money. volunteer forces worked just as well at saving your foundation as the full-time strokes now-and its so difficult to write speeding tickets for $100k a year
Have some empathy!!! It is very hard to write those revenue tickets in the hot sun. Have you seen how fat police officers are getting these days? Must not be chasing too many badguys.
Anyway, to simplify things they now have redlight and speed cameras. The whole thing is getting automated! No more workman's comp for writer's cramp on those tickets! Genius!
How about all of those awesome public unions 'serving' in prisons collecting disability for CTS from turning the keys so many times a day.
What part of corporate welfare don't you grok? If it wasn't for that JPM would have been out of business already.
I agree with much of this but you really missed one major point.
When in times of exuburence and booms, people neglect their duty as citizens.
People let the local government give ridiculous pensions and salaries, because they're fat and happy.
I've seen this first hand. You should see the amount of folks that show up to a property tax hearing now versus 10 years ago.
We let things slide, not just locally but nationally. Of course had people been diligent, we wouldn't have had the real estate bubble either.
It cannot be otherwise in a democracy. If politicians chose to sacrifice current spending for future economic growth, they would be promptly voted out of office, and the benefits of their thrift would accrue to their political enemies.
Government employees with their high pay and benefits are destroying this country. Come on MOB! Let's get rid of the marxist SCOURGE!
RALLY THE LIBERTARIAN TROOPS!
You're a bit too dry, sir. Most of them won't realize they're being insulted.
chicago garbage collectors are making 70G + benefits working 5 hour day
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203476804576612851452362670.html
in NY - 144G + benefits
http://www.wnd.com/2011/01/253645/
For the sake of our Union brothers, we need to buy a new GM Volt. We cannot allow the union to become unemployed during the 8.2% unemployment rate.. We have an important agenda to sell. Don't listen to Obama talk about clean coal electric standards. You just keep remembering that $7,500 tax rebate you'll receive come 2013 tax time. If you decide to buy the car of the future, all the money saved on gas will be shifted to high fire premium vehicle insurance. You may be upset, but just stop to think about your own new job employment creation pool.
Don't let your fellow union brothers down, buy a new government channel stuffed Volt automobile today. Always remember, driving a Chevy Volt is the Ultimate Driving Challenge.
Something else you rarely hear about is when these public takers start side businesses and compete with the private taxpayers.... These fucking leeches have such a big advantage on time and capital , especially if they have a BS disability scam payment, that they eventually are able to win out......it's time to dump these fuckers NOW !
alot of firefighters compete with full-time tradesman for work-and usually undercut their price. some departments forbid firefighters from doing side-jobs because the scumbags would get hurt at the side-job and come to work as FF and claim workman's comp that they got hurt while firefighting-happens alot
Ontario has that problem, I know aleast 2 Firefighters doing contractor work, both have had time off of FF due to contractor work overbooking, or injury.
Sick/WCompensation days...are triple dollar days up here! Working contract while collecting WorkersComp...WcWcWc + beni's
The unions and politicians collude to fleece the taxpayer. But "promised" pensions aren't just promised as far as I'm concerned, they've ALREADY been paid for work done according to agreement and the pension plan is merely a custodian of the employees' money. If the government loots the pension plan by underfunding, that's just plain stealing, like MotherFuckingGlobal Jon Corzine emptying depositor accounts.
It takes two to tango, the unions worked with the employers--whether government bodies or corporations--and when promised benefits are cut, that's just stealing compensation. The workers didn't sign the agreements, the fatcats signed the agreements. Make the fatcats make up the difference.
Ha - let me welcome you to the PBGC, union bitchez. We ain't paying your ridiculous pensions....
I have not enjoyed a comment thread such as this one in a long time. Nice laughs in dismal times.
pensions are for pussies
earn your own keep
"“there are kids working at ice cream stands earning more than their fathers, which is ridiculous.”
No there aren't. Their fathers, wearing their shiny government badges and spiffy government uniforms, shut down those miscreant, capitalist ice cream stands via taxes, regulation, and arbitrary violence.
“And as tax revenues rise, politicians can’t help but give in to their bread and butter of buying votes.”
“To those sick and tired of the tax-eater mentality that is destroying the very core of society’s productive capacity and moral base, those days can’t come soon enough.”
“The kid working in an ice cream stand whom the president of the firefighter’s union referred to is providing a valued service to society.”
“When profits soar, so does the public’s disregard for prudence.”
Oy, Lions and tigers and bears, . . . oh, my!
"Dear Prudence, Won't you come out to play?
Dear Prudence, Greet the brand new day -
The sun is up, the sky is blue,
It's beautiful and so are you.
Dear Prudence, Won't you come out to play? "
Not! Too f'd up! Some scary shit going on!
Well, the $75 fee was in effect a charge for private fire protection. This guy chose not to pay it. Would it not be communism and evil for the firefighters to put out the fire? Why would anyone pay if they did? T .
And they were volunteers. You want to fire volunteers and replace them with employees to get pensions, etc?
I'm curious how it would have been better for Mr. Housefire under a pure capitalist system.
Obviously he didn't pay the fee for the service ahead of time, which sounds like an insurance plan rather than a tax.
So if this were a purely capitalist fire department and the deadbeat scum didn't pay his 75 bucks ahead of time, they would have just said, okay and put the fire out anyway?
Shit, I'd love to get ALL of my insurance that way. Although I suspect the von Mises of Canada Memorial Fire Department would go broke if they could only collect 75 dollars from people who are actively having fires.
State debt and tax slavery, future generations will be born to serve the last leeches.
I've always wondered would it be cheaper to let a home burn down and rebuild then paying firefighters?
I would bet a fire suppression system located in neighborhoods could do just fine.
And school facilities and maintenance could be done by parents of stundents at least most of the general work.
Then lets see how long the students get away with f--- in the place up.
Firefighters spend very little time on the job fighting fires. Most of what they do involves paramedic work. Responding to ambulance calls, vehicle accidents, overdosed homeless guys passed out in a ditch. With a full crew and a big ass gas-guzzling fire truck. Seems incredibly inefficient to me.
EDIT: Fuck this thread.
Laughing at all these people here who are bitching on about firefighters earning a decent income when the Dimons and Diamonds of the world are ripping the larger economy off to the tune of tens (hundreds) of billions of dollars. Get some perspective and stop blaming the peasants, even if kicking the working class gives you a nice perverse pleasure.
Get some perspective and stop blaming the banksters
Successful people don't share your idealogy. Grow up
I guess when your measure of success is how many ordinary workers' necks you can stand on to lift yourself up, sure.
False choice analogy, AKA either-or logic fallacy.
The corruption and parasitic nature is the enemy and the host must be protected from the virus. Just killing the top of the virus (Dimon, Koch Bros, Soros) simply leaves a vacuum for the rest of the levels of the virus to move up a notch and garner greater power and wealth at the expense of the host (AKA the citizens that constitute the nation-state).
"Though a few liberals and progressives acknowledge the minimum wage law's negative effects on low-skilled workers, none acknowledges the law's racially discriminatory effects. If an employer must pay a minimum of $7.35 an hour to everyone he hires, the costs to discriminate in the employment of people whom he doesn't like are less. The minimum wage is so effective at promoting racial discrimination in employment that it was a major tool in the arsenal of South Africa's racists during its apartheid era. Racist unions were the country's major supporters of minimum wages for blacks.
Liberals, progressives and tyrants acknowledge the reality of human nature when it fits their agenda and ignore it when it doesn't." - Walter E. Williams
Hypocritical leftist scum
http://lewrockwell.com/williams-w/w-williams133.html
This implies that you've spoken to all liberals and progressives on the matter then. So I can assume you're not a bloviating ass who just makes shit up in order to be right.
I don't have to talk to them all because they're all pod pissants like you.
Kind of figured you didn't need to hear anything from anybody else. No point listening when you've already got a corner on the truth.
Spot on man, I've aways said, if you really want to get in the mind of a liberal, ask a sadistic narcissist.
Liberals need to be collectively punished for their sins.
A Must-See Documentary :: Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story.
Every time Jimmy Miller defiles the name of Ludwig von Mises by publicly shitting on the ZH sidewalk, the usual drones fight over who gets to eat it first.
This crap is easier to predict than sunset.
Thanks Tyler, it's just like the menu at Fight Club.
I'm getting ready to retire...anybody want my job? You can fucking have it!
Just think of the fun filled days and nights you can have for 30 or 40 years in a sewage plant!!
LOL! Most of you couldn't, or wouldn't, do this job.
Gub, if you laid out your salary, holidays, working hours and safety guidelines I might consider it. I'm a little sick of running a business for no money.
Min wages bitchess for Govt Workers. Hear the bitchezzz whine. Get er done.
Minimum wages for everyone! Except the bankers and politicians of course. Then they will have what they wanted all along. AND getting us peons to fight amongst ourselves is of prime importance!
You dumb fucks.
You POS parasite.
Yeah, right. We'll see what you say when we're all laid off and your fucking toilet doesn't flush.
Try to remember too that not all public sector workers belong to a union and get those great bennies and gold plated retirement packages.
We were lied to just as you were.
America Heading Towards a Collapse Worse Than 2008 AND Europe! Says Peter Schiff
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/breakout/america-heading-towards-collapse...
I have a difficult time accepting what Schiff says because he seems to always be on the verge of hysteria, at least to me. The frightening aspect of that particular vid is that so many other people who I do respect are echoing Schiff's sentiments.
Most valuable experience/knowledge I obtained in college was working for the library for 5 years. It really taught me to hate government employment. Of course this job was 1/2 sitting around and 1/2 trying to stretch out actual work to last as long as possible. One day, one of the full-time salaried employees quit. I asked the department manager if she'd be filling the position and I added, "We kind of don't have enough work to go around as it is." Her response (and I think she was proud of this), "I know, but if I don't refill that position, I'll lose the salary from my budget." It didn't matter to her that she wasted $38,000 a year filling an unneccessary position. You gotta keep dat budget fat!
So, from that one experience you have concluded that ALL gov't departmenets are run like that? What college did you attend?
University of Utah. It certainly gave me firsthand experience of the consequences when no profit incentive exists.
All government budgets are run like that. Spend the money in your budget or lose it next year. It's such common knowledge that I really have to wonder why a self-proclaimed government employee would act like it's an absurd idea.
Your nick sure is appropriate. Of course I know of such situations but not all government budgets are run like that, Chump. I don't lose money if my budget is in the black. It stays in the operating fund and if I should go over my budget the following year, there is a cushion there to absorb it.
Yours is a classic case of extrapolating your own experience too broadly when in reality it is the outlier. Another example is the fact that Ron Paul's Congressional Office returns a surplus from its allocated annual budget. It's notable simply because it's so unusual.
We get it. You've worked in the wastewater division of some municipality's public works department for 30 years and now you're an expert on government employment compensation, benefits packages, pension fund shortfalls, along with how those things compare to private sector employment. We're very lucky to have you here.
If we are going to be truthful here I'd guess most folks felt sorry for the little public employees all through the 20+ years of expansion phase of the bubble. All ZH readers acquired their wealth one way or another through the debt bubble no matter how big their head is. If not directly through real estate flipping or mortgage processing etc, then indirectly through selling something to a fool that just took out an equity loan.
Now that the bubble has popped and all we are left with is debt and few jobs, suddenly it's the public employees fault. Let's kill the public workers!!!
Uncle Warren, with Moody's, along with S&P and Fitch (conspiring with the banks) looted the public employees pension funds, through purposeful mislabeling of ratings on bonds they sold them, sucking out like leeches the people savings and have broken the pensions, which will soon default just as in Greece.. but let's stay focused on how it's those evil public employees that ruined the economy.
I'll tell you right now. When they take my pension away I'll be cracking some skulls and hopefully it will be one of you fagots who's wealth is directly tied to the great bubble on here complaining and in denial about where their money came from (excluding those who's money came from mommy and daddy, they can complain about everyone)
No, you should have saved enough money, by not buying worthless shit such as new cars and McMansions, and have enough to live on for the rest of your life without that fucking pension.
Who voted this down? Yeah, I'm a gov't worker. But I figured out a long time ago that nobody is going to look after me but me. I know that gov't pensions, social security, and medicare are big ponz schemes. There is so much underfunding in all of them that they will all be pretty much extinct within 10 to 20 years. I bought a modest ranch style house 23 years ago and still live in it. I drive used cars. I have a garden, small orchard, standby generator, chickens, and a supply of diesel to run said car, tractor, and generator. Oh, and enough gold and silver, not to mention other precious metals, such as lead, to survive a good long drought.
Fuck you all and your hatred of government workers. Let the PTB turn you against your fellow man and if you're that stupid not to see it, you deserve to be fucked.
Drove through PA the other day and listened to local radio. It was all Sandusky all the time. Nary a mention of Scranton. I wonder who got screwed worse, Sandusky's little boys or the taxpayers of Scranton?
Come on, man, that's poor taste. The kids didn't get to vote on who'd rape 'em, unlike the taxpayers.
"According to Mayor Sharon Buck, “We’ve balanced our budget, we’ve paid all of our bills [and] all of our bonds are paid…Our biggest issue is salaries and compensation and benefits. And they’re very unsustainable.” "
So, in other words, you HAVEN'T balanced your budget or paid all of your bills, you freakin' monkey...
When are we going to start firing the hundreds of thousands of government workers in the military? Shouldn't they all be out there trying to land a job in the vaunted private sector, like good, patriotic, government-hating Americans? LOL...wait, I know...that's "different"...
The Austrian perspective on the purity of capitalism and private property and the evil of public property is interesting. Most perspectives consider their particular way of looking at things to be at least well founded, if not superior to that of others and other perspectives.
Some go so far as to stake a claim to the mantel of "scientific" validity of their version of truth. Statistical proof is put forward in chart and other forms with astonishing regularity. So much so these days that no one can see any perspective but their own; and always for good, scientific, statistical, moral, virtue, best-ever, reasoning.
Hey folks, isn't it about time some of us acknowledged there is some validity in opposing viewpoints, economic systems and political points of view?
Isn't it tiresome to be "right" all the time and for adherents in other points of view to be "wrong" all the time?
The article to which this replies is fine as an essay in Misean economic thought. We get it: government is all wrong all the time.
There are, however, other perspectives that do not agree with Misean thought.
I wonder if it might be useful to set aside the need to be right all the time and to put forward some inkling of acknowledgement of the possibility that perspectives can be blended?
Do posters here reckon we are in a fight to impose one perspective over and above all others in a never ending fight to the finish, or what?
The thing that I can't believe about the schlock from that Mises institute: they really don't seem to care much about economics. All of these articles exist solely to bash the government.
That's a fine thing to do these days--all the kids are going crazy for it. But it's got nothing to do with Austrian economics, which starts with the realization that there's no rigorous method of predicting what humans ascribe "value" to.
It would nice to see a piece from them that tells us what everyone values FIRST so that we understand what we all believe before they tell us how gummit's destroying it all the time.
It's hilarious--the whole definition of capitalism is to go out and get as much money and as many benefits as you can for your labor, but when union workers do EXACTLY that, they're criticized as being greedy and un-American. I guess some people are just better capitalists than others...LOL...
It's one thing to invest in one's human capital and trading that for money. It's another to use laws to force your employer to give you what you want.
Damn...you know, I must have lost my copy of the "Capitalism Rulebook"! Could you cite the chapter and section that discusses the rules about how you can and cannot treat an employer? Who knew capitalism had so many "rules"? And it's almost like they're all made-up, and unwritten! LOL...
In business I call it "skin in the game." The problem with government employees having unions is just that, they have no skin in the game.
Now, unions in the private sector usually are not even formed unless the management is so bad that there is a need. And, once they are formed I am all for them.
As I mentioned to the other poster, could you please cite the "skin in the game" rule from the "Capitalism Rulebook"? I seem to have misplaced my copy....
Try Webster's definition. "an economic system in which investment in the ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals and corporations."
Key word, investment, or as I say "skin in the game."
This entire conversation shows what has happened to our Country. Government workers at all levels now think they represent the best of Capitalism.
God Bless us all. The end IS near.
See definition below. But, I guess Websters may have to change it in the near future.
Bloat in Government to a large degree is a byproduct of the elite owners of society needing a front man/scapegoat.
In a fascist system where corporate handlers use government as a protective shield to hide their corruption and control over the society, a straw man of an ever-growing, incompetent government is needed to deflect the light of truth from the truth corruptors.
It must be a smart strategy as most americans have bought into it.
It must be a smart strategy as most americans have bought into it.
Nah. Most Americans have internalized the values of a diverse social democracy. It's borne out in all the public opinion surveys that this really is a country of left-leaning egalitarian socialist types.
That's why the screaming around here gets so loud. The Libertarian right knows full-well not many folks take them seriously.
(I share the pain, myself: no one takes the Anarchist left seriously, either.)