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Guest Post: How Bankrupt Governments Will Confiscate Your Gold
From Simon Black of Sovereign Man
How Bankrupt Governments Will Confiscate Your Gold
About two weeks ago, GoldMoney sent out an apologetic email to all of its Dutch customers. The email explained how the Dutch financial regulator (AFM) considered GoldMoney to be in violation of various licensing rules and compliance requirements.
Among other things, AFM indicated that GoldMoney was selling ‘investment objects’ without a license… something that they consider a heinous breach of their silly bureaucracy.
Now, there are so many technicalities involved here– whether physical metal constitutes ‘investment objects’ anymore than a collection of 80s action figures or a cellar of fine Bordeaux. Then there’s the jurisdictional issue– GoldMoney doesn’t even operate in the Netherlands, nor does the company sell its own inventory. Etc., etc.
None of these points seem to matter; the regulators have spoken, and as a consequence, GoldMoney is now closing the accounts of every customer living in the Netherlands.
It’s always troubling when governments go after firms like GoldMoney. The more signs I see, the more I’m starting to believe that we’re heading down a path where precious metals are once again confiscated, outlawed, or at least severely restricted in many countries.
Let’s start with the why. What possible sense would it make to reduce or restrict gold ownership?
Simple. The modern financial system is a complete joke. Money is conjured from thin air, backed by false promises from bankrupt governments. Then there’s the fractional reserve swindle, centrally planned interest rates, government-produced inflation, manufactured statistics, insane credit and sovereign debt bubbles, etc.
It’s a total fraud… and like any good con, it depends on just that: confidence.
In order for a system based on -nothing- to perpetuate, it’s imperative that it commands the confidence of the people within it. And people in rich western countries have been programmed since birth to believe that the colored pieces of paper circulating around in their economies are intrinsically ‘valuable’.
It’s funny, because developing countries already know it’s a scam. They don’t trust their governments, and they don’t trust those silly pieces of paper either. Out here in Asia is a great example– most of the region is very gold-oriented. They use paper as a medium of exchange, but it’s a cultural norm to save with gold.
In fact, when I walked into an Internet cafe earlier today here in Thailand, I noticed quite a few people at the computers checking out live gold charts (from Kitco).
People in western countries are just starting to get it… and as more people peek behind the curtain to see the true crimes being committed, the system will be finished.
The gold price is a constant reminder that the fiat financial system is a con job. And the higher the gold price becomes, the more people become aware. The political establishment will do whatever it takes to maintain the status quo, and it’s possible that precious metals restrictions will become a tactic:
Step 1: Just make gold ‘harder’. To buy. To transport. To own.
Think about the changes we’ve seen over the last two years; government-regulated exchanges are continually hiking their gold margin requirements, increasing investors’ burden to buy.
On the physical side, the US government buried some insane regulations deep within last year’s healthcare bill. The new rules required a mountain of paperwork such that anyone who purchased a single ounce of gold from a coin shop would have to submit a special 1099 form to the IRS.
(The rule was later modified under intense pressure from various lobby groups, but it still gives you a good idea of what these people are thinking…)
Then there’s the new Dodd-Frank legislation that makes it nearly impossible for US citizens to trade securities and commodities from overseas accounts beyond the reach of the federal government.
Then there’s the Liberty Dollar debacle in which the US government used obscure counterfeit laws to seize millions of dollars of silver coins that were owned by the firm’s customers!
Then earlier this year, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) issued new guidance requiring that US taxpayers who hold gold in certain offshore financial accounts report such holdings on their annual FBAR. Conveniently, this ruling put up a barrier for Americans to use GoldMoney.
GoldMoney’s battle with the Dutch regulators is just another example of governments making gold ownership more cumbersome.
Step 2: Plant seeds of doubt
We’re seeing signs of this as well. “Prominent” economists have been pounding the table against precious metals with vigor, and the propaganda ministry is focusing its efforts on gold’s recent price drop to make people believe that it’s dangerous to buy.
This recent media clip in which a reporter extols the virtues of the US dollar being backed by the federal government says it all. It’s already begun, and we should expect more.
Step 3: Tie gold to terrorism. Plant evidence.
Here are two incontrovertible facts: Westerners are petrified of Arab terrorists. The Arab world is a very gold-oriented society. It wouldn’t take much effort to link the two by suggesting (and planting evidence) that terrorists use gold to move money and finance their operations.
This will be surely be the next step… and if we start seeing this, you can bet your last ounce that restrictive controls are coming.
So what to do…?
If you live in a broke western nation, whatever you do, don’t store your gold in a bank safety deposit box. Bankers are unpaid government spies, so you might as well hang a sign up that says “please seize my assets”.
Ideally you want to move your gold out of the country. We’ve talked about anonymous boxes in Vienna’s Das Safe facility in the past, as well as Hong Kong’s The Storage. Both of these are great options to buy and store gold.
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I suspect by then they won't actually be knocking at the door before they come in.
Right. That knock will be a flash grenade as it breaks the window.
Some suggestions:
Put in hurricane windows. and/or add blast films.
If you are replacing the windows, might want to make them smaller, if you can get away with it.
Colonial style shutters that are actually metal are good too if things get really bad; other more obvious styles could be used.
Outer doors could be replaced with solid doors that open outward, then add several inside only deadbolts.
If you are considering new building, you might check out this:
http://www.icfhomes.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated_concrete_form
Looks normal when finished, energy efficient, nearly bulletproof with proper thickness. Necessary cost increase is small, but experienced cost increase is large. Mostly because inexperienced contractors charge for their learning curve and experienced contractors assume you are wealthy.
Nice thing about not owning gold is you don't have to worry about storing it, moving it or preventing someone from stealing it.
When times are really tough, better not to have something that weighs you down. The other good thing about not having anything valuable is you have nothing to lose. There are only two types of entities who governments really can't do much about, those who have way too much or those who have nothing. The ones in between are too scared to lose what they have and are therefore easy to threaten into submission. :)
Then you will be a slave. You have lost your freedom in your desperate attempt to be poor.
"When times are really tough, better not to have something that weighs you down. The other good thing about not having anything valuable is you have nothing to lose."
-You mean like food and water?
That's some sound logic you got there.
I hope that either the smiley face means you're just joking or you are infertile.
Rude, but, the truth.
It would start, IMO, with a luxury tax for those who buy in the future. For those of us who already own, I don't see an easy means for the fascists, whether door-to-door search, or Executive Order. No one of us will willingly give it up; we'll just wait for the revolution.
as a real terrorist: just bury your gold together with a set of nice hand-grenades
Hmmm, ZHedgers have a rational approach to the confiscation issue. Safe stored gold at home, hedged with guns & ammo ...
Unfortunately, such walktrrough seems to be impossible in EU. The first thing to be confiscated r guns. ( Except in Suisse ),
Plenty of guns in the uk - the rural county where I live has 300k head of population. The police firearms officer who recently came to inspect my gun safe (legal requirement here) said there were 40,000 people with licenses in the county - most owning rather more than just one gun. Most are shotguns, but lots of rifles as well. Unfortunately we are not alowed auto or semi auto any more.
The French have a lot of guns circulating in rural areas, in Switzerland most men have an army issue assault rifle at home, for their annual stint of national service. They are required to maintain profficiency, lots of villiages have weekly range practice follewed by beers. Very good for community spirit.
I got a good deal on a French rifle, never been fired and only dropped once.
I did too! Mine even came with a free white flag!
NoClueSneaker
The first thing to be confiscated r guns.
The catalyst for the total destruction of the country.........because a majority of folks will not give up their weapons.
Even if 20% refuse, there are not enough .gubs, to seize.
(bloodbath ensues)
The right to bear arms. The founding fathers knew what was what. If we could do one thing that really mattered I think teaching folks about the constitution in a fun and engaging way would go very far towards cleaning up this mess we are in. Including the fiat problem. Coin the money you representative bitches!! But make it culturally in vogue to know your constitution.
I love the idea of America (the business of freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, etc.). I will fight for that.
Now could someone shoot the Pillsbury doH boy please? He is popping up in the ads and when we eat his products we become slow, heavy, and fuzzy headed. Once we are off processed foods, we can see so much more clearly. I tightened up my diet even more a couple of weeks ago. It really does matter.
Investing in your head and body is worth some gold.
Just a MsCreant talking from the margins.
I love you! ;)
Me luvs TomJoad too! ;-)
There is a spirit in all of us that I wish we could tap but so much trust and understanding is needed, I fear we can't get there. So we get it where we can, like here at ZH.
+1 I would like to see the right to keep and bear arms restored (uninfringed).
The Bill of Rights provision was to forestall the need for standing armies and otherwise restrain government. Arms are the tools necessary to wage war. What we have today is a restricted right to own, and sometimes carry, personal weapons.
Per the second amendment we should be able to own an Abrams tank. claymore mines, M25 grenade launchers, and Stinger missles just for starters.
They would like just ban ammo sales or just make it hideously expensive $50 tax per bullet. While some do have stockpiles, most don't.
Its likely that the fast and furious was a plot to end gun sales in the US. It may have failed, but I doubt it the last attempt they'll try.
This guy kinda trades on fear, mixed with some hazy facts.
First there will be a million lawsuit against it,the crooks in congress hold gold also.
2nd .All the pissed armed citizen might have a say
3rd Nobody will give it up willingly
4th check the original gold confiscation. It was voluntary.
Sure , hide it ,but dont be too paranoid.
Most people would turn their gold right over if threatened with a felony for posession.
Those people weren't smart enough to own gold to begin with. Those with the initiative to acquire gold instead of cars and gadgets are not likely to bend over when asked to do so.
In a more practical sense, how do you determine who owns the gold? Seems near impossible. Even if you shake down the gold retailers for a mailing list you have no idea what the customer did with it after purchasing.
Those people weren't smart enough to own gold to begin with. Those with the initiative to acquire gold instead of cars and gadgets are not likely to bend over when asked to do so.
In a more practical sense, how do you determine who owns the gold? Seems near impossible. Even if you shake down the gold retailers for a mailing list you have no idea what the customer did with it after purchasing.
I'm not sure anyone can know how things go if they do try that. To me, that would be a clear signal to immediately start moving to the ranch.
The crooks in Congress don't give a shit about the laws they make, because as you know they write themselves exemptions where desired. Lawsuits will be tossed out as soon as SCOTUS rules in favor of the ban, which they WILL do if it comes to that.
The 2nd is the last bastion keeping the Leviathan from officially declaring this a full blown oligarchial dictatorship, and seizing anything and everything they want. Ironically enough, they may never need to do so, because the incrimental system they've used up to this point is working like a charm.
Nobody will give it up willingly.....at first. Once they see enforcement begin to happen under the auspices of the infernal Patriot Act and see their neighbors disappeared without a trace, they may rethink this. We'd have to literally be at Beyond Thunderdome stage for this to be happening, but never say never?
I seriously doubt FDR went to the trouble of drafting an executive order, only to then render it meaningless by making it 'voluntary'. You don't threaten prison terms and fines over things which are 'voluntary'. Unless you mean 'voluntary' in the same sense as the income tax.
the crooks in congress hold gold also.
When have the rules ever applied to them?
4th check the original gold confiscation. It was voluntary.
There was still a threat of fine/imprisonment. People have been trained to follow rules.
On March 6, taking advantage of a wartime statute that had not been repealed, he forbade the hoarding 'of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency,' under penalty of $10,000 fine or ten years imprisonment or both."[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
Confused
On the '33 Order, if memory serves only two people were ever prosecuted for not obeying the fascist in power then.
If the goverment wants to "confiscate" gold, all it does is to open a commision
offering 7000 dollars an oz, the fed prints the money to buy it and all the gold comes
flynig into the goverment/fed. With all the printing, the money they just gave you will
be 1/2 the value of the gold you had. LOL! how do you feel now!
LOL they wouldnt have to go thru all that! They could just announce on the news the Gooberment has just decided owning gold is illegal, and anyone caught owning it or trying to trade it after a benevolent 48 hour grace period to hand it over will be aprehended for an automatic 25 year prison sentence in a FEMA work camp. 95% of gold/silver owners would immediately hand it over.
Hmm, that would be gay. But I think that they would not want to pay to have all that done.
And who is going to narc them out, the seller? no. the buyer? no.
You can always go to another country with it too.
Im fact, thats a genius scam. To be the last country that accepts gold. All the gold will migrate to your country.
We shouldbe that country.
I am thinking a good black market gold economy has already started anyhow.
Exactly. The only way to confiscate is to offer fiat at a rate people hand over their gold. An aggressive confiscation would simply cause the private gold to leave the country - an even worse outcome for the country that is enacting these new laws.
SheepDog-One
95% of gold/silver owners would immediately hand it over.
20yrs ago, maybe, not now.
People have seen just how corrupt the system is (truly a Rage against the machine moment)..............this time, I believe there will be a stand.
But honest officer, I thought it were them foil coverd candies...
Here you are, officer. I keep them right here... Oh my god, they're gone. Somebody must have stolen them.
Yes, that's the tease. They restrict gold ownership and then try to pry it loose from you by offering what seems like great prices, but in reality, it is only paper they are offering. Anyone who sells will live to regret it for the rest of their lives.
Still, I don't see confiscation and an outright ban on ownership in the cards.
I always said to the wild goldbugs here and on youtube that you better be prepared to defend it if you want to keep it.
Maybe there is a way for TPTB to take whatever they want, without menacing the populace ....
How about infecting them all with a nice new designed virus and selling them antidotes on daily base ....
Monsanto long :-)
Fiat has reduced us to the effective level of cavemen. Those in the know understand that all they have of certain value is what is in their possession and guarded with deadly force. Everything outside the cave is fraught with counterparty risk. Thanks for the civilization, banker scum.
there was some daft ecological scheme that the mid west farmers were meant to comply with- of course some did not, and lost the subsidies. The BANK WENT TO FORECLOSE, and after 4 shootouts, the bankers went to Washington and complained they were loosing some good people in the mid West, and once these distressed farmers realised it was Washingtons fault, expect them to arrive. Pres Bush then changed things, with the words "We will never let the mid West hang out and dry"
You know, I've been lurking since before the site moved to its own domain, and coming up on a couple year's commenting, and I don't think I've ever said anything negative about guest posters, but... Simon Black really isn't adding to the conversation here. Gloom and doom is expected, but it needs to be backed up, and proposed solutions need to be more than the wrote prescription of moving out of the US, which seems to be Simon's answer every single time. At the very least he could have taken a page from yesterday's threads and written "...bank in Hong Kong, or get out a shovel."
Hong Kong, POC. That ought to work out well. For the POC.
Austria, start whistling "The sound of music" and see if the invaders come waltzing in before or after the government announces it has surrendered to them.
Honestly.
Why not, "gold is radioactive" "gold will make you fat" "Lindsay Lohan doesn't think much of gold"
The easiest and most likely way the govrnment will seize gold is by taxing the shit out of it. That's what will happen. The vast majority of people who don't own gold won't care and so there will be ver little opposition to the law. That is what I expect the Ponz to do next.
I can see this as a possibility, although I'm curious what sort of magical justification they would use for imposing a mega-sized tax on PM's? If it's to be considered strictly a commodity, then would they not also have to mega-tax oil, gas, copper, etc?
Still, I put nothing past the gangsters running the show.
The current 28% on any gains seems pretty damn mega to me...
In order for a system based on -nothing- to perpetuate, it’s imperative that it commands the confidence of the people within it. And people in rich western countries have been programmed since birth to believe that the colored pieces of paper circulating around in their economies are intrinsically ‘valuable’.
It also helps when a left-right paradigm is established to blind the people to pick sides. Ideologies blind people to a point it defines their individual beliefs on how the country should run. This is dangerously stubborn; like a poker player who goes All-In every hand in Texas Hold'Em. Will you win alot of small pots? Sure. Some big ones? Yes, if variance smiles your way. But in the end, the All-In move works everytime...but once. It's usually too late to adjust because of the previous successes. "Hey, things are GOOD, guys! We can keep the status quo, you still have NetFlix and iPhones!"
Then, after the evitible happens, you are sitting there with little or nothing left, the sinking feeling Lehman investors had in 2008. It's adjustments, not idelogy, which is needed to correct the clusterfuck that is gov't monetary policy the majority of the world aheres to.
The lefty socialist will cry "Re-Distribution of Wealth!". The right winger will cry "Corporations are infallable, ask Jesus!". All-in-while the referees who are controlling the game (bankers, Fed Reserve, politicans/military who benefit from inside knowledge) make sure that no one wins and that a centrist republic - a direct threat to their fiat money monopoly - is NOT re-established again in the United States (like when the US colonists kicked out corrupt organizations like the East India Company and Bank Of England in 1776).
People have no idea how they are secretly getting fingerbanged by Government regulation, not even aimed at one side of the other, but ALL sides. First, it was the banning of online gambling transactions in a Port Securities bill in the UEIGA. Then this below in a HEALTHCARE bill, which last I checked, HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH EXCHANGING METALS.
On the physical side, the US government buried some insane regulations deep within last year’s healthcare bill. The new rules required a mountain of paperwork such that anyone who purchased a single ounce of gold from a coin shop would have to submit a special 1099 form to the IRS.
Of course, most don't know this, hell I just learned of it . Why? Our own Congress doesn't even READ the bills they PASS. It's almost as if they are leaving their car out on the street, doors wide open, and then come out with their hands up saying, "What happened!?!?" when their car is obviously gaffed.
The dumb reporter in the video's statement shows more ignorance. "Investors are sticking with the USD because it is backed by the US Government and Treasuries, which they view will be there, and strong, in a year from now."
Again, have we NOT learned anything from "Fooled by Randomness"......The Greeks-Romans-British.......the 2008 New England Patriots.......or even from Genesis in the Bible ("From Ashes to Ashes, dust to dust." )....... that NOTHING in this world is guaranteed, even imperial governments?
Fiat money comes and goes. But metals, found EVERYWHERE in the Universe, are, and will always, be here to stay. And that frightens the SHIT out of our "leaders".
Would "DUH!!!" be strong enough for you??
One of the main reasons I would not touch gold (at any price nor profit capability) in this market: A confiscation event is only one major-bank crash away -- and with Europe teetering and B of A toppling...
darkstar7646
One of the main reasons I would not touch gold (at any price nor profit capability) in this market: A confiscation event is only one major-bank crash away -- and with Europe teetering and B of A toppling...
Your reasons for NOT owning, is exactly why you should be.
Slave, or Serf?.Fiat will be worth ZERO,or close to it......................what are you going to live on, your looks?
DosZap: You're presuming that I believe I'm going to live very long in any realistic event.
You might wish to reconsider that line of thought.
I liked the old movie Laurence of Arabia (1962). The Arabs fighters were very pissed off and quit fighting when the Brits tried to pay them in fiat instead of gold.
Even so, it was all about drinking water. In the opening scenes, a guy gets killed for drinking from a well without permission. At the end of the movie, the Arabs gave up control of everything, except the water supply. A great movie with a some interesting perspectives.
only faggots and sailors are named Lawrence.
Thank you for your comment, Lawrence Faggot Mayor.
Mr. T isnt' sounding as dumb as you might think. I'd like to see the Feds come confiscate his gold..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWAu7FmKbYc
"In fact, when I walked into an Internet cafe earlier today here in Thailand, I noticed quite a few people at the computers checking out live gold charts (from Kitco)."
Were they foreigners?
Thai's have their own gold market. 23kt traded by baht weight. 1 baht = 15.244 grams of 96.5%. The daily price is in the window of every gold shop and advertised on tv constantly. I really doubt a bunch of Thai's where checking out the international spot price in an internet shop
goldmoney is a stupid idea anyway.
why in the hell would i ship my bullion to them, or buy it from them, expecting delivery one day?
if you don't have it in your possession, you don't own it.
why don't people get that?
Water WILL be the new gold once "The Great Riot" starts (I should trademark this term; always an opportunity to earn!).
Hell, the quality of our water supply is something that most lefty eco-nerds tend to ignore, focusing more on emissions (Why? Because QE and other corporations make more money taxing and makign the people stuff stuff to keep "emissions" down, rather than improving the water supply's quality, with is a social project with a -EV return, at least on the balance sheet).
Isn't it a regional issue? Here in New England, we don't have the greatest prospects for solar power generation but water isn't much of a problem at all. In Arizona things are 180 degrees opposite.
Some articles say nothing all the way through.
Some say a lot in a few sentences..
This says a lot IMHO..
Ideally you want to move your gold out of the country. We’ve talked about anonymous boxes in Vienna’s Das Safe facility in the past, as well as Hong Kong’s The Storage. Both of these are great options to buy and store gold.
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/gold-confiscation-ganz.html
thought this article to be more informative. some people made a fortune in the depression by buying coins which the government exempted as part of a collection.
the government could outlaw gold transactions to "protect" citizens against fraud. (they're always saving us from ourselves).
really you must prefer cash money which has many verifiable checks.
speaking to a retail clerk the other day, who checks money by looking for the security strip. i reminded her that some theives bleach smaller bills and print larger denoms on top, and the only way to tell is if the watermark picture is not he same president as the one of the front of the bill. hmm, she was incredulous.
imagine what unsophisticted consumers will think when presented with a shiny coin. (and there is chocolate inside)
It wouldn’t take much effort to link the two by suggesting (and planting evidence) that terrorists use gold to move money and finance their operations.
This will be surely be the next step… and if we start seeing this, you can bet your last ounce that restrictive controls are coming
huh, it's been already in the workings for some time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_minerals
The most commonly mined minerals are cassiterite, wolframite, coltan, and goldIn April, 2009, Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) introduced the Congo Conflict Minerals Act of 2009 to require electronics companies to verify and disclose their sources of cassiterite, wolframite, and tantalum. This legislation died in committee.
Fundamentally, the US Conflict Minerals Law contains two requirements that are closely connected: independent third party supply chain traceability audits and reporting of audit information to the public and SEC. However, even companies not directly regulated by SEC will be impacted by the audit requirements because information/audit requirements will be pushed down through entire supply chains, including privately-held and foreign-owned companies. so, what SEC has to do with wolframite and tantalum? and "humanitarian aid" in general? they want to stop wars then they just delegalise US Bonds.
"Think about the changes we’ve seen over the last two years; government-regulated exchanges are continually hiking their gold margin requirements, increasing investors’ burden to buy."
Nonsense. People who buy physical gold are entirely unaffected by futures margin changes. The author *meant* to say that hiking gold margin requirements increases traders' burden to go long OR short. Given the large increase in the volatility of gold increasing the margins was just common sense.
>Dutch (Rabobank) and Belgium (BNP Fortis) bank >account, they made it hard for me as well.
Things have changed in the Netherlands. I used to wire myself $20,000 at a time to pick up in cash from a Dutch bank. They didn't report me to anyone, but one day the manager came out when I collected my cash and told me not to come back. He obviously didn't want to fill any forms associated with reporting dodgy transactions.
BTW, I was legit. Just don't like to open local bank accounts where I actually live.
The whole problem with gold is that it's not just conjured up on the futures markets for edible consumption.
You have to find the rare deposit, develop the mine, blast it out of the rock, process the slurry with cyanide, electrowin the concentrate, melt the product into dore bars, ship the bars out by Brinks' to the refiner, where it can be sold finally into the market.
The miner obtains an irrevocable letter of credit, a derivatives contract on the sale of the gold content. The gold is already in the process if being swapped out or confiscated.
When you buy the gold, it has to be reported by the vendor so that no tax fraud can occur, though I imagine jewellery melt has it's loopholes.
No other asset is faced with the number of encumbrances that gold has, from the machine-gun bearing security guards at remote airports where it's loaded, to tbe bank vaults where it's finally cached.
And gold is not supposed to be backed by anything. And people expect to bury it fir safe keeping.
The thing is that back in 1933 when scumbag FDR confiscated the general public's gold, there was widespread ownership of gold in the general public.
The number of goldbugs and ZH'ers who own PM's is now a tiny portion of the general public. Gold ownership is much more skewed toward the elites and the powers that be. These factors are powerful disincentives for another confiscation.
I disagree. It might be a powerful disincentive for the old line powers to confiscate but not for the Obama's of the world.
I can see the cracks appearing in the powers right now. On one side you have the old politicians who are bought and paid for by these people you mention. On the other t=you have the old communists like Obama and his crew.
They don't really like each other too much. The old group is fighting to keep the status quo and the new is looking to blow it up as fast as possible.
What's fuinny to me is that the recipe for both is the same - borrow and print to oblivion.
SB's articles continue to be un-worthy of ZH.
First, I think diversification is wise. some gold should be abroad, some buried/hidden, some in mining stocks, etc.
Second, financial columnist John Mauldin wrote:
“For those who want to buy larger sums of gold, there is a program that I like backed / sponsored by the state government of Western Australia, called the Perth Mint. You can buy gold certificates that represent actual bullion in vaults in Perth at reasonable prices. While your gold is stored in Perth, you can take delivery if you want and leave the country with no taxes owed. Or you can sell the gold and get cash. You diversify your country risk, have excellent and safe storage facilities, diversify your currency risk (if, like me, you think of gold as a currency), and have a different asset class than traditional portfolios.
“You can learn more about the Perth Mint on its website, http://www.perthmint.com . And one of their dealers is an old friend of mine, Mike Checkan of Asset Strategies International. I have known Mike for about 30 years, and he does what he says and shoots straight. He is well-known in the investment information world, with lots of endorsements. You can learn more about his outfit here, http://www.assetstrategies.com , or call them toll-free at (800) 831-0007 in the U.S. and Canada, or direct at (301) 881-8600. You can also email them from their web site.”
Geez, can some of you learn the difference between replying to a comment and posting a new one? It makes it impossible to follow an argument.
Feel free to reply to this with totally unrelated thoughts
Geez, can some of you learn the difference between replying to a comment and posting a new one? It makes it impossible to follow an argument.
Feel free to reply to this with totally unrelated thoughts
Cows
Heartburn
Silk Stockings
NotApplicable:
Isle of Wight
Jennifer
Another Jennifer...
Allow me to point out the problems with this article.
1. Gold was never confiscated in the USA. Gold was purchased at the going rate by the US government from the public with a gold backed paper currency. Yes. It was mandatory and a devaluation followed. But no one confiscated anything.
2. We are not on a gold standard now and no one has any gold. There is no need to confiscate the gold and no benefit from doing so.
3. The government is FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to confiscate your stocks, like all socialist governments, to secure the means of production during a crisis they created which causes all business operations to become insolvent. Look around. Look at history. Look at Chavez right now. You are nuts if you think they will take your gold and not your factories.
4. Make up your mind. Are they going to dump all their gold, or steal it all? Seriously.
Exactly, very few people own any bullion gold, probably less than .5% of the US population. Gold jewelry is already being 'confiscated' via those stupid cash for gold schemes. This is scare mongering much like the sellers of numismatic coins do to get you to overpay for their coins.
the only VALUE gold has is what someone else is willing to pay
Bill 1102
That is very true - but its value in these terms has consistently increased for thousands of years. Observers from another planet might think we are all crazy (apart from Ben 'Sane' Bernanke of course) for wanting the stuff, but you can't deny that we all do.
If you (and/or Mr Bernanke, if you are reading this) are an exceptional person who does not value gold, please send it care of ZeroHedge.
Quinvarius says the truth and has good points.
But always, ALWAYS, keep this in mind.
The most successful socialist psycopaths in history moved their agenda forward slowly... then with capitulation they grew bolder and moved faster.
It's time now for ALL those who love freedom and want to preserve the most successful Constitutional Republic in history to draw a line in the sand and stop yeilding.
Invest heavily in physical precious metals. Not only gold and silver but brass, lead and blued steel. The message will be sent loud and clear to any of those socialists embedded in our government and are attempting to slowly overthrow this great nation.
Interesting points; I would say your first point is one of semantics. The other issue, I think you have to look at this in a global context, there are plenty of holders of gold in China (and growing quite rapidly); will the the most trusted currency in five years be the gold-backed RMB? If westerns governments lose the trust of the people (plenty of examples throughout history), will the market force it back into line or the reverse? Maybe I'm naive but I would suggest that the market will utlimately prevail over the myopia of government. Finally..... dumping gold? Seems like the hyper-Keynsians in government throughout the western world are starting to think twice about selling their gold. Why? They were eager sellers at 300... why pause at 1600? It would be interesting to see how the Germans would react if the Bundesbank were to suggest selling its gold.
Rgds, p
1. But no one confiscated anything.
haha, sorry but this is nonsense. if someone wanted to hold gold not paper but was forced to "purchase" paper for his gold, then what was it? if mob forces you to "purchase" "security services" from them, then what was it? mandatory trading or theft?
2. We are not on a gold standard now
one Monday Dexia was in top 10 safest banks, and week later it went bankrupt. one week fiat currences will be "fine" and another week no one will trust anyone. they'll need some common mean to settle things off, and that will emerge without any "standards" being announced. just pure need will set it up. and it's not going to be Roubini's canned spam.
3. The government is FAR FAR FAR FAR more likely to confiscate your stocks
Yes and no. Actually, they'll follow Mussolini's steps: they will let you keep the stocks but will transfer any rights to gov. even now in Europe there are companies where state owns less than 50% but is guaranteed to control the entire businness including dividend.
4. Make up your mind. Are they going to dump all their gold, or steal it all?
First, they'll dump it all. Then they'll realize what they did and struggle to regain as much as possible.
Look at Belarus: they started hyperinflation, if you want to buy USD or EUR there, you have to show your idenity card so gov registers your transactions to force you into buying currencies with their rigged exchange rate. at some point it might be illegal to own foreign currency - just like 20 years ago.
I was at my Dealers the other day, and a nicely preserved mid 60's(obviously a real looker when younger),was picking up an order of phys.
Best I could count, there were at least 40-20oz plastic holders of 1oz Gold Eagles .(800 ozs.)
I doubt she was worried about confiscation.
FOFOAs latest incase you missed it. (as if).
http://fofoa.blogspot.com/2011/10/rpg-update-4.html
(A #mustread for all euro-skeptics and luvers alike!)
China and India encourage their citizens to own gold I read. China has expanded the number of outloets for its people....seems odd the Western countries are doing the opposite....instead of helping their citizens stay financially healthy with whatever their choice in investments, these gubberments are trying to limit rights more and more.
Odd.
In any case, you can't eat gold!.....or can you?
Granted, I should know this but I don't. Did the government actively confiscate gold in the 30's? Or did they just rely on people to turn it in?
we must go past the buy hold and hope situation as if things go mad max from emp or econ collapse, then the scenerio in the "Black Book" comes into play.
Jas.5[1] Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
[2] Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
[3] Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
The very raison d'être for owning gold and silver at one level is a distrust of government.
So any attempt at actual confiscation would merely serve to validate those sentiments. One would think it should also put upward pressure on the price, and invite even more popular scrutiny on the formerly backwater activities of the monetary authorities. This probably explains why, for the last several decades, mainstream investment advice only very rarely mentioned gold, other than to ridicule any sort of move in that direction.
The FDR era diktat specified a $10,000 fine for non-compliance, no small sum in 1933 - in gold terms, this represents $850,000 in today's government-backed notes. Hm.
So was anyone fined? I don't think so.
Gee, the government confiscates the world's largest supply of free circulating gold in history in exchange for green pieces of paper, devalued by 40 per cent, repudiates gold clause contracts and reneges on their gold bonds - but hey, nobody got "fined". It's all good.
Well said Tedster, the FDR era diktat also specified prison for non-compliance.
http://www.thereformedbroker.com/2010/05/31/where-white-man-went-wrong/Oh, geez - I think we fucked up, eh ??!!
In 1933 not all gold was required to be handed in, redeemed for paper currency.
from an excellent article on the subject of possibility of gold confiscation by David L Ganz , a prominent New York City attorney who specializes in precious metals and numismatic law., in which the USA law is quoted and explained.
A recommended read for those with a serious interest in the subject matter
http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/gold-confiscation-ganz.html
In China they will take a much simpler approach. Turn in all your gold or we will execute you and your family in public, slowly.
Voila - China will have the largest gold reserves of any nation - virtually overnight.
So I should buy gold, at whatever manipulated price the market bears on any given day, average up/down/sideways, and hope that I'll have some value left. It's the same as fiat money. Except with USD cash I can go anywhere in the world, especially in 3rd world nations such as Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica, Florida, and Texas, and live at whatever cost of living I can afford. Von Mises was a theoretician but had no clue about the realities of the world, unfortunately...
LMAO, the time to end the fed is near. Upon this happening, all US debt will be paid off in 1-2 years and our inflation/deflation system will truly be stabilized. When this happens, the current inflated price of gold will either remain constant, or decrease, as it is sold for its usefullness which is almost nothing.
They will nationalize our unmined gold reserves before they try to confiscate anything. They would have to abolish the second amendment first(right to bear arms) before they even tried. It would be political suicide getting that thru congress. Even in a financial colapse I dont see that happening. There are a lot of stupid people in this country but we still have a higher % of educated people in this counrty that wouldnt put up with something like that in 2011
in the 1930's giving up gold for $ wasnt that big of a deal it wasnt worth as much and the fed ponzi was just gertting started.
I'm sorry, but there is an 'emergency law financial transactions' from 1978 in which the Dutch government can confiscate everything that represents monetary value. The gold confiscation is art. 26.
Life insurance policies, stocks, bonds etc can be taken from you or declared worthless.
That is how it is.
http://www.st-ab.nl/wetten/0211_Noodwet_financieel_verkeer.htm
It is obvious from my moniker what I do for a living, but let me say, we have never pitched confiscation as a reason to own rare coins. The reasons are self evident for anybody with the sense to look into it.
The fact is gold ownership is following a clear narrative: drug dealing terrorist tax dodgers that wish t end the fed are the only ones that own gold.
The attack on Swiss accounts is part of this narrative. Do any of the so, called experts believe that the Swiss will not roll over and give up your gold?
This is very real risk, probably one of the biggest of gold ownership.
The only impediment to negative interest rates is the fats the money will be withdrawn and stuck in bullion. That is why it will be “confiscated”.
As for the pedantic arguments about the word “confiscated” wishful thinking will not change anything.
It will be as simple as closing the London Bullion Market. How many people will and on to the gold and deal in a Chinese Black market.
If one had held gold after the 1933 confiscation, how would it have worked out over the past 78 years?
50% greater return, with 100% less risk
http://www.scoinsandbullion.com/en/blog/390-50-greater-return-100-less-r...
Mr. Madnumismatist, I take it the only gold you own is 1933 and older gold coins? Do you believe if the US government requires US citizens to turn their gold into the nearest Federal Reserve Bank that numismatic coins will be exempt again? And what do you think the definition of numismatic will be? Will it be interpreted as any gold coin minted prior to 1933? Do you have any doubts there may be a new interpretion of numismatic gold coins? I appreciate your opinion.
That is a very good question, I hope I can answer it.
I do own pre 1933, but they are the speculative part of my collection, mainly for liquidity above and beyond the bullion part. But I think 1933 is just an arbitrary date. Under European law, coins dated from 1820 onwards are exempt from VAT, whilst earlier dates are taxable.
As the Ganz article points out, the key term is “rare and unusual” just because an item is pre 1933 does not make it rare or unusual, or because it is “pricey” does not make it rare and unusual.
A complete collection could be called unusual simply from the effort of creating it, but high grade “old” coins sold by telemarketers certainly are not rare and are very far from being unusual.
Under the UK exchange controls that ended in the 1970’s, gold was also illegal, except if you had a license to own a coin collection. Those that had collections prior to the controls were granted a license, while anybody seeking a new license were denied one.
It is also interesting to note that, unlike in 1933, today certified coins allow anybody to accurately identify how many coins still exist. As a rule of thumb, anything with less than 1000 known specimens we consider rare.
Identifying these would be very simple, but again the logistics of drawing them in would be a nightmare.
I have only been buying St. Guadens and Double Eagles as close to the melt price as possible. Some are graded but most are not. With your response I think I will be taking them overseas on my next trip.
As info, when I took gold coins out of the US in the past US Customs asked me if they were bullion or numismatic. I told him both. He said he wished someone could give him a answer to what was bullion and what was numismatic. He was not sure himself.
For your reference, each commodity has a tariff. Numismatics of 100 years old is: 97060060. Although modern eagles are legal tender they are not created for circulation, and thus we classify them as bullion: 711810910.
Thank you.
today i took delivery of a lovely 5oz gettysburg silver coin.. this makes me considerably better than other contributers to this thread..
It is obvious from my moniker what I do for a living, but let me say, we have never pitched confiscation as a reason to own rare coins. The reasons are self evident for anybody with the sense to look into it.
The fact is gold ownership is following a clear narrative: drug dealing terrorist tax dodgers that wish t end the fed are the only ones that own gold.
The attack on Swiss accounts is part of this narrative. Do any of the so, called experts believe that the Swiss will not roll over and give up your gold?
This is very real risk, probably one of the biggest of gold ownership.
The only impediment to negative interest rates is the fats the money will be withdrawn and stuck in bullion. That is why it will be “confiscated”.
As for the pedantic arguments about the word “confiscated” wishful thinking will not change anything.
It will be as simple as closing the London Bullion Market. How many people will and on to the gold and deal in a Chinese Black market.
If one had held gold after the 1933 confiscation, how would it have worked out over the past 78 years?
50% greater return, with 100% less risk
http://www.scoinsandbullion.com/en/blog/390-50-greater-return-100-less-r...
I quite like this post as it addresses a key risk to the bull-gold scenario which is highly probable given not only current extremes in economic policy but its political/social consequences. The way I see it, very simply, is that when you buy gold, its not the purchase of the precious metal that is important, its the selling of the paper (dollars) that is. When you sell paper money or fiat currencies, effecitively you are voting against the establisment. At some point in the future, when there are sufficient votes against government, they will, quite undoubtedly react to enforce trust (the trust that they squandered in the first place - but thats beside the point). Enforcement means control or the attempt to control the alternative - gold. I have little doubt that regulation ends the rise in gold prices... but thats not to say that the price can't reach much higher levels from here before it does.
The other question that comes to mind is the political/social environment we will all be dealing with when governments are forced into this position. It is likely to be quite ugly; who knows, maybe we'll welcome regulation when it finally comes.
Rgds, p
GOLD BITCHEZ!
Question: Do you really think that if gold is made illegal, people will cease to trade with it on the underground market? It will become harder to get and therefore more valuable.
Governments cannot control the black market in high-security prisons, where everyone is locked in a tiny cell and monitored day in and out by video cameras and armed guards. You really think they can confiscate gold from the entire populace if they can't even confiscate drugs from an inmate bound by chains? Gimme a break. When I was in middle school there was an underground market right under teachers' noses in just about anything anyone wanted, including illegal substances. Even kids have it figured out how to go undetected. Its human nature to find a way around authority and get your hands on what you want/need.
The REAL market will always exist.
In fact, throughout timultuous times in history, the elite/gov't/military/police protected some underground markets because they themselves depended on them to provide goods that were illegal or rationed.
Its human nature to find a way around authority and get your hands on what you want/need.
The REAL market will always exist.
***********
Good post and i might add-in order to confiscate Gold wouldn't they have to admit that it was/is in fact "money"?
It has very little industrial demand and the ladies of India might be slighted at the mention of their jewelry being referred to as "money" and would also brand the US with enforcing free trade tariffs-
These confiscation "theories" are much too US centric for claiming what the US can and can't do to a commodity that trades on the Global markets-the rest of the world would just laugh and like you say-accommodate an underground market which will be easy to sell into and likely at much higher prices than the world market price-
One more reason why I believe confiscation will never fly and why would they bother?
(only 0.8% of the world's financial assets are invested in gold, and only an estimated 0.2% of all institutional investment assets are invested in gold or gold stocks, which is basically a rounding error)
http://www.acting-man.com/?p=10750#more-10750
The last time Gold was confiscated Gold was circulating "money"
The reason for the confiscation was-
"Fear of bank runs"
Today there is no Gold/Dollar connection and if there was a flight to Gold because of Currencies in danger of collapse-the last thing Governments would try to do is drive the available traded Gold out of the open market-
If such a scenario came to be-Governments would be panic buying Gold at any price to try and stabilize their collapsing currency (with Gold)
I'm finding ounces are now sitting at 80-100 over spot price. Unfortunate for those who buy smaller peices... the price is outrageous.
I agree. There may come a day when everyone here wished their gold was in a country where it can be bought and sold. Where owning gold will not make them wind up in prison.
News is becoming as dumbed down as the rest of TV...reality shows. ABC news for example, while not the worst, uses up a big chunk of its time slot with 'features' that belong to 60 minutes.
PS Better watch the movie The Book of Eli.... a glimpse of things to come.
PPS Who is naive enough to think that in a real crisis situation the Austrian government wont take over Das Safe under some pretense like its a haven for terror money....
That chicks a crackup: "golds not backed by anything, whereas the dollar is backed by the US government" ooooh, don't that make you feel warm and cozy?
Wonder if the US goobermint starts a war on gold? I hear that war on drugs is going pretty well.
Hello Black Market Gold...
Ignore Simon Black. He is an admitted military intelligence and/or CIA agent-alumni. While some of his suggestions are valid, many are dangerous, counterproductive or outdated (reasonable 30 years ago, but not today). For example, to trust ANY government or ANY financial institution in ANY country is now pure insanity. How many dominos do people need to see fall before they realize the pattern, and the way to protect themselves? Note what happened in Switzerland, for instance. You think companies in HongKong --- or anywhere on earth --- will protect you? If so, you are a fool and sucker.
The only security is self-security. Trust no one. In fact, even be careful trusting yourself, since you've been brainwashed since birth with statist and corporatist propaganda and self-destructive habits. Above all, secure and carefully hide your own gold and other physical assets... and avoid the temptation to trust anyone else to know where you stashed your stuff. What you can do is arrange to have 1/3 of the information necessary to find your stash delivered to three friends upon your death... or something like this (but think very carefully about whatever scenario you invent).
They did it once, which means they could very well do it again.
"They did it once"
Because they left the gold standard in 1933, and still have over 8,000 tons of that same gold. Under what scenario today would they need gold?
The current value of the U.S. gold reserves are approx. 600 billions, about the net worth of Apple computer, or enough to fund the government for a few months, or perhaps bail out a TBTF for a few more.
Another criminalization wouldn't do a heck of a lot, simply because US deficits and expenditures dwarf the gold stock, not to mention unfunded liabilities, etc. Perhaps out of pure spite and vindictiveness, yes, but there doesn't seem to be any truly economic reason.
What of Silver, then? Another candidate for appropriation? Copper?? Perhaps the government should just move the entire Periodic Table of Elements under the jurisdiction of the DEA or BATFE, the latter would then be termed the BATFEAPTOE; it does add a certain panache don't you agree?
There getting ready to confiscate the gold and it won't be pretty. They know when this whole game comes down, there will be a mad scramble to hide money and run with whatever money you have. The govt. wants to stop that.
"Oh, I felt guilty about shafting Unkle Sam so I donated it." haha
Confiscating gold is far too dangerous a move for the rulers. Those who own gold may be a minority, but a potent minority.
In any case it won't help them. At current price all the gold in the world won't even come close to covering their debts.
Scaring the herd away from gold and into their casino, however, is desirable, so that they can keep fleecing the sheep.
Ewwww. You can smell a Simon Black article from a mile away. This guy has proven time and time again he is full of utter crap - he mixes in some truth, with complete incompetence and fallacy. Not sure why this site brings itself down with his ego-driven drivel.
For your reference, each commodity has a tariff. Numismatics of 100 years old is: 97060060. Although modern eagles are legal tender they are not created for circulation, and thus we classify them as bullion: 711810910.