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Guest Post: How To Cut America's Healthcare Spending By 50%

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

How To Cut America's Healthcare Spending By 50%

The current sickcare system is financially unsustainable. Physician correspondent "Ishabaka" proposes practical ways we could cut costs by 50% while improving care.

Since sickcare is fiscally and demographically unsustainable, it will eventually be replaced by something that is sustainable. Our only choice is to either let the current system collapse and then start pondering sustainable alternatives, or begin an honest discussion of sustainable alternatives before sickcare implodes in insolvency.

In the spirit of openly discussing a variety of sustainable, systemic healthcare options, we present this essay by correspondent "Ishabaka" M.D. on how to cut our current (18% of GDP) healthcare spending by 50%. Ishabaka received training in Canada, so he has direct knowledge of the Canadian system from the inside. Having spent decades as a primary-care and emergency room physician in the U.S., he also has deep knowledge of the U.S. sickcare system from the point of view of a care provider to under-served (i.e. uninsured) Americans.

Here is Ishabaka's essay:

Some time ago I told you how I could cut health care costs in half and provide every American with the healthcare they need (not necessarily the healthcare they want!). Here goes. Some of my points might seem drastic, but we are facing a drastic problem.


1. Immediately introduce national healthcare for all Americans ( and ONLY American citizens and H1B visa holders ) which will be paid for by an immediate TAX INCREASE.


2. Like Canada, this will cover all doctor's office, E.R., clinic, hospital etc. visits. Unlike Canada (the biggest mistake Canada made), there WILL BE co-pays for routine office visits and visits to the E.R. that are NOT serious emergencies.


Here is why Canada's no co-pay system is wrong. A family physician friend of mine in London, Ontario had a family in her practice. The little girl got an ear ache, with a low-grade fever on a Saturday. The mother took her to an E.R. and got an antibiotic prescription. On Sunday the girl was feeling better with no fever, but the mother took her to a walk in clinic "Just to make sure everything was all right". The doctor said "Yes". On Monday the mother took her daughter, who was now feeling fine, to my friend's practice "Just to make sure the other doctors knew what they were doing". The ear infection was cured.


That was two totally unnecessarily visits the Canadian tax payers paid for, and the first visit should have been to the walk-in clinic, which is much cheaper than the E.R.


Co-pays have to be meaningful - not too much to dissuade patients from necessary care, but enough to make them think. That should apply to all aspects of healthcare.


Let me give you another example - right now, where I live, a basic ambulance ride (no drugs or treatments) is about $500. I have had a patient come in by ambulance for a TOOTHACHE. The paramedics should be able to say "No" and not worry about being sued.


3. Like Britain, every person will choose a primary care provider, who will provide their primary care. Referral to a specialist will require a request for consultation from the primary care doctor. In the U.S., there are no restrictions on seeing specialists who charge twice as much or more than a primary care doctor. I saw a guy who went to an ear nose and throat doctor to have his ear wax cleaned - a procedure any nurse can do!


4. Immediate tort reform. Not quite sure of the details, but I estimate that probably 50% of the tests done in the U.S. are to C.Y.A. against malpractice suits, and are medically unnecessary. What would probably be best would be a no-fault system. You are injured by the health care system, you are compensated a REASONABLE amount for your injuries, regardless of who was or wasn't at fault. You aren't really injured, you get nothing. This could be handled by arbitration panels which would take the lawyers out of the system.


Right now, it takes on average $50,000 to defend a doctor against a frivolous lawsuit - the doctor wins, but still $50,000 is down the drain. On the other hand I was involved in a suit where a patient died due to real negligence on the part of two doctors and the family lost the lawsuit and got nothing. This would cut malpractice premiums by at least 1/2 and drastically reduce the amount of testing.


5. We spend WAY TOO MUCH money on end of life care. We have to get together as a society and decide what we will and will not provide for end of life patients, and that doesn't just mean cancer patients, it also applies to end of life heart failure patients, emphysema patients, etc.


For example, a reputable study in The New England Journal of Medicine showed 0% survival from treatment of cardiac arrest on kidney failure patients on dialysis. Zero. I have had to do numerous "codes" on kidney failure patients on dialysis - they all died. A code costs thousands of dollars. The first code I ever ran was on a 38 year-old accountant having an acute heart attack. In the old days (1960's) I would have simply pronounced him dead. He lived, and was FINE, no brain damage from loss of oxygen, walked out of the hospital a week later and went back to work. That was money well spent. We don't have infinite money. We need to get the most bang for the buck.


The $90,000 chemo drug that extended terminal prostate cancer patients' lives by 6 months should NOT have been paid for by taxpayers' money. Patients who want it should have to pay for it themselves.


6. We have GOT to get the gold-bricks off disability and workmen's comp. If we did, we could put the truly disabled and injured-on-the-job folks in suites in the Ritz Carlton with 24 hour nursing and rehab care! It is mind boggling to see how many gold-bricks there are.


I really liked the system in Ontario, Canada. Any primary care doctor could certify a patient as disabled or off work for up to two months. After that, the patients had to be seen by a panel of specialists paid by the government. They had NO INCENTIVE to either certify the patients as disabled/unable to work or not. To make these specialists truly independent they should be salaried - and the government CANNOT fire them except for the reasons that would cause them to lose their license (sex with a patient, drug addiction, etc.).


7. All advertising immediately banned. We go back to the 70's. No doctor, hospital, clinic, drug company, can advertise to patients. Period.


8. All new drugs have to be compared to existing drugs (if there is a similar existing drug). ONLY if they prove superior to existing drugs should the FDA approve them. Every time a new drug is invented, all the other pharma companies copy it, change a molecule or two, and then study it compared to PLACEBO. We end up with 20 drugs that do the same thing. It's ridiculous.


9. Get rid of fraud and abuse - for real. This means doctors AND patients. You get caught committing health care fraud you pay in fines THREE TIMES what you stole, and spend a minimum of ONE YEAR IN JAIL OR PRISON. This is crucial - fraudsters MUST be made to do time.


Everybody's charges get audited by an independent panel. You charge for patients you didn't see, or wheelchairs you never provided to patients - you go to jail. It must be recognized that nobody is perfect, mistakes happen. A doctor accidentally charges for a patient they didn't see once in five years is not fraud - it's a mistake.


In the same way, patients caught "doctor shopping" for narcotics and selling them pay three times what they made and go to jail for a year. Same for patients selling blood pressure pills (this is a big racket for Medicaid patients) - doctors are usually suspicious of healthy looking patients seeking narcotics, but see a Medicaid patient who is on expensive blood pressure pills, says they ran out and can't contact their doctor - they will usually get a prescription. You can make a nice income on welfare doing this.


10. Eliminate health insurance companies, except for people who want to buy extraordinary coverage like for the $90,000 prostate cancer drugs. Do like we did in Ontario - fee for service with the fees paid by taxpayers via a Department of Health, the fees negotiated annually by either state or national medical associations.


11. Electronic medical records THAT WORK. Right now we are in the "pre-internet" era of EMR. There are a thousand different ones, they are very expensive, doctors pay the full amount, and NONE OF THEM CAN TALK TO EACH OTHER. I worked for a long time in an ER in Florida in an area where elderly people from the north came to winter. They would get sick all the time and come in not knowing their allergies, meds, or medical history. It was a nightmare. If I hear "I'm on a little white pill for blood pressure" one more time I may scream!


With a national standard EMR I could find everything I needed to know with a few mouse clicks. It will be a disaster if this info is stolen or hacked, so the punishment must be severe - TEN YEARS in prison WITHOUT PAROLE, and a hefty fine. No excuses. Set up something with Interpol and the UN so this applies to all countries. And, since EMRs would benefit patients, doctors, and the entire country, doctors and hospitals pay half, the government pays the other half.


12. Get rid of the bad docs/nurses/hospitals/ etc. I'll just speak for the docs here - there are two kinds of bad docs - ones who are bad usually due to lack of knowledge or drugs/alcohol but WANT to be good, and those who are bad and don't care. The second ones are immediately banned from healthcare for life. The first group gets extensive education/rehab, whatever they need. Then close monitoring. In my experience, most of them will turn out to be good docs. A few won't, and get banned from healthcare for life.


13. Finally, immediately outlaw high fructose corn syrup and foods made with trans fats. We know they are poisonous. Again, minimum one year prison for the CEO and board of directors of any company that violates this law, whether it's a mom and pop shop or Kellogs or McDonalds.


That's it, except for a few tweaks. Fifty percent cheaper, everyone gets what they need.

Thank you, Ishabaka. Here is a story Ishabaka sent recently that highlights the consequences of fast-food on human health:

This is an article from the July 2, 2012 issue of Circulation, the journal of The American Heart Association. It shows how frequency of eating fast food per week increases the risk of heart attack - up to 80% if eaten four or more times per week! This is a highly respected medical journal, not some crackpot website.

Western-Style Fast Food Intake and Cardio-Metabolic Risk in an Eastern (Asian) Country.

Conclusion: "Western-style fast food intake is associated with increased risk of developing type 2 diabetes and of chronic heart disease (CHD) mortality in an eastern (Asian) population."


* * *

And this from Zero Hedge - want to live to 100? Here's how:

The Centenarian Diet


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Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:35 | 2724155 Chuck Bone
Chuck Bone's picture

No mention of EMTALA and the anti-trust exemptions for the health care industry within? Then no solution. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:39 | 2724165 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Easy, let those who create their own health problems die.

You somke or are fat = your left to die!


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:43 | 2724183 AlphaDawg
AlphaDawg's picture

The plans are not facist enough, they will never work for congress

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:51 | 2724212 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture


Being in Canada watching this from the outside is a headscratcher.

Americans will fight to the death to be able to pay a conglomerate of "health insurance" (read: financial) companies some of the highest costs per capita in the developed world with some of the poorest results.

And then scream fascism when someone proposes reforms like this article. 


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:58 | 2724254 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

 Canada's health care is fucked. Ontario is close to 1/2 a trillion dollars in debt. That's a province of what? 10-12 million people max? How long are they going to be able to afford giving people healthcare without raising taxes beyond the 30-45 % they are now. Currently they are cutting the rate they pay doctors. Hospitals don't have enough beds forcing people to sleep in hallways. Just go to a hospital in Toronto and tell me what you think. Try seeing a specialist...good luck.

I could go on but this is a dead horse. Socialized medicine is fucking garbage.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:04 | 2724279 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

A little dated, but a stat that sticks in my head is that the "average" Canadian visits the doctor 24 times per year.

That which is "free" is abused.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:27 | 2724397 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Only one change would ROCK this sick-making world.


Get your ph checked. Blood/Saliva/Urine....whatever. You should be slightly basic/alkaline.

Most diseases canot survive a basic solution. They need acidity (meat is the biggest culprit, stress is probably next).

Very simple. To get basic, brush with baking soda, gargle with it, quit meat, slow down, learn to how to breathe OUT deeply. Drink the wine you make.

Bye bye doctor...


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:39 | 2724442 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Good point.  Coffee and tea are acidic.  The average American diet is almost perfect for bacteria and fungus-among-us.

Acidity leaches minerals and flushes B vitamins out of the body.

As to stress, St. John's wort reduces stress in the best possible way, by reducing cortisol levels, in the blood, but I still prefer Cabernet;)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:52 | 2724503 Stackers
Stackers's picture

uh, and here I thought we needed tort reform, and to reform America's mentality that since their health plan is part of their "pay" that they MUST use all of it each and every year or they risk not getting the full "compensation" of it in their work. And here all along the best plan is to actually follow the failed plans of other western socialist governments.


"Reform #9 of getting rid of fraud and waste" shows just what complete NONSENSE this plan is. How the hell do you get rid of fraud and waste in a government run mega bureaucracy. Thats like trying to get rid of the milk in ice cream.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:53 | 2724528 fuu
fuu's picture

"1. Immediately introduce national healthcare for all Americans ( and ONLY American citizens and H1B visa holders ) which will be paid for by an immediate TAX INCREASE."

Fuck off.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:12 | 2724606 Precious
Precious's picture

"You get caught committing health care fraud you pay in fines THREE TIMES what you stole, and spend a minimum of ONE YEAR IN JAIL OR PRISON. This is crucial - fraudsters MUST be made to do time."

Fucking insanity.  Worse than the TSA granny gropers.  As if society hasn't criminalized enough.  Kiss my ass DOCTOR ISHIBAKA (trans: "stupid stone")

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:38 | 2724738 LowProfile
LowProfile's picture

Funny, if he just got rid of #1 - 3, I would be on board 100%...

But he HAD to go all statist on us, again...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:08 | 2724885 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

Isha = Doctor

Baka = stupid, maybe demented

Ishabaka = Dr Demento.

Clever, really...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:29 | 2724917 Pegasus Muse
Pegasus Muse's picture

"13. Finally, immediately outlaw high fructose corn syrup and foods made with trans fats. We know they are poisonous. Again, minimum one year prison for the CEO and board of directors of any company that violates this law, ...."

Barack O'bummer:  "All this Central Planning is making hungry."

Rahm Emanuel:  "I've got just the place, O!  And it ain't no Chick-fil-A joint."


Wed, 08/22/2012 - 20:45 | 2729116 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Mr.Charles Hugh Smith is a little heavy on his state sponsered eugenics isn't he?

I can just imagine the cackling banter between him and Bloomberg at society parties over shrimp cocktail & French pastries...what no Big Gulps?!?!?

(Hillarity ensues)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:09 | 2724577 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

Gandhi drank his own piss


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:12 | 2724612 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

First they laughed at him.  Then, they saw what he was drinking.  They they thought for a mo. And then they avoided him.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:27 | 2724682 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

No wonder.


I'm sure when he ran out...he hit the streets looking for more.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:04 | 2725079 Seer
Seer's picture

Not that I'm looking to test this out myself, but one CAN safely drink one's urine for up to three days in a row IF NEED BE.  This is pretty well known in survival circles.  Your kidney is a very good filter and urine is pretty sterile.  Now, if one is eating one's own shit, well, That would be another story (a pretty sad/sick on at that)!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 20:45 | 2725856 Tijuana Donkey Show
Tijuana Donkey Show's picture

I call that Congress

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 20:57 | 2729142 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm a firm believer in makin them eat the same shit they pass on the rest of the country...but they exempt themselves from the law.

This too shall pass.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:09 | 2724300 dugorama
dugorama's picture

well, tell that to any Frenchman or German or Dane or.... every citizen of every OECD country but the US.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:10 | 2724306 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"Ontario is close to 1/2 a trillion dollars in debt. That's a province of what? 10-12 million people max? How long are they going to be able to afford giving people healthcare without raising taxes beyond the 30-45 % they are now."

^ Here comes the ignorant strawman argument. 

"Just go to a hospital in Toronto and tell me what you think. Try seeing a specialist...good luck."

My brother had an appointment (in T.O.) with a specialist a week ago. Went well as it usually does. 

"I could go on but this is a dead horse. Socialized medicine is fucking garbage."

Explain away the actual point I brought up - why does Canada's socialized system have better results with lower PER CAPITA costs comparative to for profit models?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:18 | 2724344 Desert Irish
Desert Irish's picture

If Canada's Tier 1 health care sytem is so great why have only 2 countries copied it - North Korea and Cuba.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:26 | 2724392 El Tuco
El Tuco's picture

Listen fucker. A family friend had a stomach aneurism that was ready to burst. He was visiting a hospital in Mississauga. The doctor in emerg basically told him to go home and come back on Monday because the surgeon is too busy and can't do it till then. It burst the next day and he passed away after a long struggle. Don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about you fucking dick. It took me 9 months to see a neurologist after I had a bulging disk. 9 fucking months. Thankfully it healed in 4 months and I survived the pain.


Don't give me this bullshit that I don't know what I am talking about you cum guzzling pos. I lived it and I also lived in the USA for many many years and had the best healthcare one could imagine.

Canadian health care is fucking garbage.....but that's all you know so you think it's awesome....

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:38 | 2724459 SamuelMaverick
SamuelMaverick's picture

Canadian health care has been a big income booster for upstate New York healthcare providers, Canadians come down to NY in a steady stream and pay out of their pocket in order to get timely and needed procedures. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:33 | 2724959 jplotinus
jplotinus's picture

An ah ha moment:

"Canadian health care has been a big income booster for upstate New York healthcare providers, Canadians come down to NY in a steady stream and pay out of their pocket in order to get timely and needed procedures."

I had wondered what accounted for Canadians being healthier and living longer than Americans. I knew it wasn't the weather. So now we see it's because they come to the US for healthcare...(not)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:42 | 2724470 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

"Canadian health care is fucking garbage.....but that's all you know so you think it's awesome...."

That's a great strawman but you didn't answer my question.  

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:34 | 2724715 Cyclerider
Cyclerider's picture

Don't give me this bullshit that I don't know what I am talking about you cum guzzling pos. I lived it and I also lived in the USA for many many years and had the best healthcare one could imagine. [emphasis added]

In fact, more cum guzzling might reduce health care costs by 50%.  It's has lots of good stuff in it.  That should have been one of the doctor's suggestions.

There would also be a lot less stress in the world.  Less stress=better health.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:01 | 2724849 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Sounds like gay propoganda to me...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:17 | 2725137 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

 I would rather think the comment was primarily meant to recommend a way for women to improve their health,

with the added benefit of reducing men's stress levels.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:26 | 2725176 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture

I am up for women's health

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 17:22 | 2725329 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture


re el tuco

Your friend in Mississauga should have discreetly slipped the good doctor a c note.

that is done everyday all over the world! Service should have improved,

no need to visit south of the border or check out early in life!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:35 | 2724695 JohnKozac
JohnKozac's picture

People will spend $100 bucks on massive fat laden dinners but complain when they have to fork out $50 for the doctor. Obamacare has no incentives for people to stay healthy. That is one of its major problems. The Gubbermint and public just look for someone else to pay for their care instead of eating an dliving a healthy life style (at least most do this).

Anyone go to Walmart lately?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:03 | 2724858 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

It's not the $50 or $100 that hurt people- it's the $50,000 emergency room visit otr the $350,000 cancer treatment.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:00 | 2724261 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

I share your opinion of corporate drug pushers, but those who indulge get what they deserve.

Know what happens when "Doctahs" go on strike?   Mortality drops like a rock!  Same thing happened in DC of all places, when most of the saw bones were out of town for a convention.  Caveat emptor.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:27 | 2724680 smiler03
smiler03's picture

That's a great idea. Get rid of all doctors completely and everybody will live longer. 



Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:36 | 2724730 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

The best stats on the subject ( from Hahvud, but WTF) estimate that 98,000 Americans die each year from medical mistakes, hospital acquired infections, etc.  Compare that to 43,000, more or less, from highway deaths. 

Do you think traditional medicine is a net benefit to society?  You might be right, but there is plenty of evidence on the other side. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:28 | 2725188 Seer
Seer's picture


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:02 | 2724270 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

Government meddling and trying to 'fix' something (a.k.a. rewarding the companies that give politicians money with monopoly like holds over an entire industry) is what got us into the current situation. Anyone who believes that the government will do anything that lowers the true cost of health care is delusional.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:16 | 2724332 r00t61
r00t61's picture

It's ironic that the article lays out "X,Y,Z" reasons why big government+central planning has created the current sickcare system; yet the "fixes" all somehow involve government bans, government prosecution of systemic fraud, government reform of the legal code, and last but not least, a nationalized, federal-level government health care system. 

This would be the same government that operates Amtrak, the Defense Department, the SEC, FEMA, and others?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:28 | 2724406 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

It is very frustrating that people don't see through this. When so many areas of life are controlled or regulated by government, people tend to forget that there are other solutions. In a sense, .gov has defined the box we as a society operate in. Until people become intelligent enough to realize that there is a whole host of possibilities outside that box, government will be the only possible solution which will in turn just make things worse. Use the Trivium Bitchez!!!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:38 | 2724455 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Yes, I think this is why there's such a polarization on this issue. Anyone that really thinks about it, the obvious answer is that a federally run government healthcare system in the US would probably be terrible.

But that's not to say you couldn't have a socialized system through other means. Or even look at other more radical / new models.

You could take many of the common sense solutions offered in this article and use them as a basis of how to formulate a new system. Instead the argument often comes down to ALL gov, or NO gov. 

It's pretty clear the current system is bad & Obamacare will be bad in different ways. I like the system in Canada (though it has lots of issues), but we have a very different approach to gov overall and you couldn't simply transplant our system over. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:53 | 2724527 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

If a group of people all voluntarily preferred having some type of socialized health care they should be free to operate under that system. When someone is given the power to force people to operate in a certain way or purchase certain goods or services, corruption is a short step behind. I have no clue what the best system of healthcare for any group of people would be and I know for a fact that nobody else does either. It should be left at that and people should be able to choose what is best for them.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:14 | 2724624 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

"Instead the argument often comes down to ALL gov, or NO gov. "

That's because most easily swayed people have fallen for "the trap"

Living Outside The Dialectic: Niki Raapana talks to herself about communitarianism -

A. The core foundation for the U.S. communitarian system is already established. Community Development is a standard agency in every state. The term Sustainable Development expanded from the UN into the mainstream private business sector in less than a decade. Every inch of the USA has an adopted plan and vision for the future, and the goal of every single one of them is to ensure sustainability.

In the cities, Communitarians have already conditioned Americans into accepting aspects of life in controlled collectives. Borrowing from the most successful collectives in recent history, Communitarians utilize and expand on programs, policies and ideas perfected by the British Fabians, Imperialists, Russian Soviets, Chinese Communists, Nazis, Fascists, and Israeli commandos. This is why you hear so many Americans saying "it's socialism!" or "it's communism!" or "it's fascism!" or "it's capitalism!"; many people recognize these ideologies when they see them manifesting. But it's only once people start seeing more than one ideology going on at the same time that communitarianism begins to make total sense.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:36 | 2724731 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"Instead the argument often comes down to ALL gov, or NO gov. "

That's because SOME government turns into ALL government.

My question is why do SOME people have to dictate to ALL people?

Take your shitty,  failed belief systems and shove them up your fucking asses.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:57 | 2724830 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

""Instead the argument often comes down to ALL gov, or NO gov. "

That's because SOME government turns into ALL government."

Too funny, Anusocracy - walkin' talkin' cliche.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:49 | 2725259 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

You can still put your beliefs where I suggested.

I don't care to live my life the way some brain cells in your head want me to.



Tue, 08/21/2012 - 17:57 | 2725458 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

I could care less how you or anyone else lives their life as long as it doesn't impact me / others. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:38 | 2725228 Seer
Seer's picture

To be fair about Amtrak, its schedules are subjugated to the rail carriers (who happened to have been GIVEN the land [with help from the US Army], not to mention lots of near-free labor [Chinese laborers in the West], for their tracks).  USPS is also screwed by govt itself in that Fed-Ex and UPS managed to get lobbyists to force USPS to fund pensions for 75 years! (and no one else had to do that)

Not defending govt here (I'm basically a ZERO Govt person), just wanting to ensure that facts are used.

BIG = FAIL (govt OR private, doesn't matter [because BIG couldn't occur w/o coercion happening somewhere along the way])

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:07 | 2724292 Matt
Matt's picture

I think you misunderstand the above post. the plan does not profit corporations enough, so it will not be implemented. In fact, most of the proposals are anti-corporate/special interest; corn farmers, big pharma, fast food, etc.

I'm in Canada and where I am it's $50 for an ambulance ride and $25 to get a doctor's note (to prove to employer you were actually sick from work). Having a small fee for most services seems a good way to prevent abuses.

Rather than outright banning certain substances, an alternative would be feebates, to charge an extra tax on unhealthy foods, drinks, cigarettes, etc. and subsidize the price of healthier foods, as well as put towards healthcare since we know smokers cost $5000 per year more than non-smokers and morbidly obese people cost $8000 per year more.

Although there is no way this would get implemented with so many older people around, I think a system of declining government health subsidy as you get older would be a more fair way to allocate health resources. 100% free from conception to 18 years, 75% from 18 to 35, 50% from 35 to 50, 25% from 50 to 65, and 0% from 65+. I don't think we should spend an infinite amount of money extending some people's lives; if you want to get knee replacements and hip replacements and live to 100, do it on your own dime, you had 40+ years to save up for it.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:43 | 2724763 northerngirl
northerngirl's picture

Why not just keep the government out of health care?  I could care less if you smoke, drink too much, or are over weight.  I'm not the one having to live with the choices of a bad diet, smoking,etc., however, I do have to live with an over reaching government.  If you want to eat too much, smoke, or drink that is a personal choice.  Government health care is nothing more than an excuse for a bunch of people sitting around deciding what you can and cannot do with your life.  Get a hobby!  The less government involvement the greater the decrease in the cost of health care.



Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:58 | 2724839 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

+100 on this.  


When will people realize the system is the problem, but lets keep making it bigger.


"Do unto others."

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:07 | 2724883 Matt
Matt's picture

Without government, corporations would not have to disclose what is in the food you eat, so how could you make an informed choice? How would you know which loaves of bread are loaded with HFCS, how much salt is in it, etc? Are you planning on doing checmical analysis on everything you purchase and do your own studies to determine if it is toxic or not?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:22 | 2725161 object_orient
object_orient's picture

If there is consumer demand for food product labels, they will be provided in a free market. You'd pay more for them, right? As it is, the FDA interferes with informed choice. Food isn't allowed to be labeled non-GMO, for example, because it might stigmatize Monsanto frankenfood. Still think the FDA is on your side?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 18:19 | 2725508 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Not to defend the FDA. But on the issue of free markets:

"If there is consumer demand for food product labels, they will be provided in a free market. You'd pay more for them, right?"

Why do people think in such simple terms.........

One of the paramount features of making money in a free market capitalist system is OBVIOUSLY secrecy / deception.

If the key to your products success is misleading the public about it, then there will never be a point at which the benefit of labelling your product would outweight the cost. 

I'm not advocating a gov solution, just pointing out the obvious. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:35 | 2726136 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Unlimited Liability and "Loser Pays" would fix a lot of civil problems...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:00 | 2725519 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

Strawman much?

Gee, I think I'd start a bread company and advertise how healthy my bread is, there by advertising what is in it.  Much better then our competitors, see we did a chemical analysis of their bread and these are their ingredients.  So eat the goldentool brand bread.  Try it I dare you...


Then people make decisions.  Gee do I go cheaper and eat crap or do I try and eat healthy.  But hey if you know someone else will pay for it who cares.  Guess what someone else pays for my health care also so who cares.  Doesn't matter what I do right the system has my back...  For the people that want to eat healthy bread not so much, now they are paying for your decision and someone else's.


The owners sit back and laugh, because really, all the costs get passed off to those that do the work, pay the rent, and pay the taxes.  That's right keep chugging slaves and make sure you argue among yourselves a lot, as a matter of fact fight it out for this handout...


Now that being said, I am for a certain level of socialism, because at this point machines do the majority of work, a basic standard of living really should be an entitlement.  How this is used should be up to the individual.  This cleans the board of excuses and makes for an even playing field.  Everyone knows you have the "money" and the ability to keep your house painted and put food on the table or go buy iphones and eat those instead, your hunger is not my problems. If you want the perks do the work. What we have is a system of privileges to the few and hand outs to the many with no financial equality in between.  Those who control the flow of money truly do control the system, from the top to the bottom, and in between.


IMHO,I can't see how government has increase standard of living in the last 100 years.  You could maybe make that case for infrastructure projects, but that's it.  Even then the states could have and probably would have done the work, if the population of the state wanted it .  At least then when you disagree with policy you move to a different state where people share similar opinion.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:06 | 2724874 ceedub
ceedub's picture

Have fun fighting giant mega corp insurance company to get them to pay what they owe with no government help.

"we'll vote with our dollars and go elsewhere!" have fun when they're the only game in town like it basically is now.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 17:09 | 2725318 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Thanks God!

Only you can know that they'll "be the only game in town".

I sure wish I knew everything like you do.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 23:27 | 2726245 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I agree with you northerngirl in spirit but since I'm here working in the trenches so to speak I have a question. A 52 year old man weighing 460 lbs came in to my hospital last month. He was sitting on the couch watching TV and 3 vertebrae in his back broke spontaneously under his weight. They brought him to the ER in agony. The drs cannot operate because of his weight and other numerous complications (diabetes, heart disease, kidney disease, hypertension, hypercholestrol) and is on 25 different meds. He has a MRSA infected toe which is now gone into his blood. He's been in intensive care for about a month and will most likely die there. I'd be surprised if the final cost of his care is under $500,000. So how do we prevent or fix this? Obviously it's too late for this guy but he represents many patients I see everyday. I'm willing to bet he didn't get in this state of affairs eating celery sticks. So do we regulate his food so this never happens? I think most here say no, he has a right to do this to himself. Okay now what?Would everyone here on ZH contribute a dollar to his care? I bet many would say " not my problem". Well, guess what, you and I are paying whether we like it or not. It's easy to be an arm chair critic when these issues are presented in a blog for debate, it's another to watch it happen to real people every day and see the suffering. The choices we must make before healthcare collapses will be difficult and painful for all but the 1%.


Wed, 08/22/2012 - 14:39 | 2728236 Matt
Matt's picture

Triage. You sir, are not going to make it, so we are going to allocate our resources towards saving the lives we can. Sometimes, there is no solution that makes everyone happy.

Wed, 08/22/2012 - 19:49 | 2729027 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Yeah Matt, that unfortunately will probably be the outcome of this scenario eventually. It was really telling to read the end of this guy's chart where the dr wrote " it is difficult for this patient and his family to grasp the severity of this situation". This guy really probably thought he was going to get fixed up and go home to sit in his chair, once again enjoying his junk food and TV. Are we really so deluded in this country now?


Wed, 08/22/2012 - 23:25 | 2729357 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I don't feel sorry for him.

I feel sorry for the million or so people killed by the US government over the last twenty years.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:47 | 2724201 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

and those that live healthier lifestyles should enjoy the health care savings, unfortunately, obamacare won't allow this to happen

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:00 | 2724265 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

If you are fat, smoke, eat poorly and don't exercise you should pay double or triple or more the healthcare premiums that a healthy person pays. There is no financial incentive at all to be healthy. The more healthcare you use the more you should pay.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:11 | 2724309 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

And tax the living fuck out of those sugar death trap Super Big-Gulps. And turn all fat people into food for the thin, fit, fair supermen. FORCE EVERYBODY TO DO THE RIGHT THING OR KILL THEM.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:19 | 2724645 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

theres the are still penalizing choice, the manufacturers of those "sugar death trap Super Big-Gulps" are merely supplying demand

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:08 | 2724884 ceedub
ceedub's picture

Supplying demand with huge government subsidies for corn and other things.



Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:07 | 2724871 Joe Sixpack
Joe Sixpack's picture

Sorry, Spas, Bloomberg already beat you this one (at least the big-gulp part; though no one would suproised of the soylent green part was proposed).

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:21 | 2724922 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture


It's a cookbook!

Different sci-fi, I know. Similar sentiment.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 16:29 | 2725190 dogbreath
dogbreath's picture



You're such a comedian, lol

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:11 | 2724310 Matt
Matt's picture

It would be easier and more granular to apply the taxes at point of sale of the unhealthy goods, rather than to screen people all the time and try to get the money through larger premiums, I think.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:16 | 2724635 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

Yeah! Sneak it in. That's the ticket!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:04 | 2724862 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

Yes because more tax is always the best answer to any problem.


O yes don't forget all taxes must be paid in frn.




Let people opt in or out of this "system."

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:18 | 2724912 Matt
Matt's picture

I believe that property taxes, and specifically the ability to take away someone's home if they cannot pay, is wrong.

I'm talking about a usage fee; if you choose to consume goods that are going to make you sick, you prepay towards the inevitable medical treatment the consumption of said goods is going to cause.

Without public healthcare, if people were using health insurance from a private company, that company would want you to pay for unhealthy choices the same as a public healthcare system should. Most life insurance companies either do not insure smokers or charge quite a bit more.

A system with niether public healthcare nor private insurance, where everyone had to pay in full at the time they recieve the service from the doctor, would work far more for the wealthy.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:34 | 2724716 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

While I can't say this with any certainty, I'm fairly confident what you suggest would be the outcome of completely removing government from the healthcare picture.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:46 | 2724786 BeanusCountus
BeanusCountus's picture

This is such bs.  Long-term cost of healthcare has little to do with anyone's habits.  Vast majority of EVERYONE'S lifetime expenses occur in the last few months of life.  Everyone dies.  Bottom line is the longer you live the more you cost.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:50 | 2724215 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

i smoke


i support your suggestion, but i shouldnt have to pay so much tax on a pack of smokes


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:05 | 2724284 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

Depends on what you smoke;)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:57 | 2724247 vast-dom
vast-dom's picture

i'm on the healthy beyond okinawa diet and have zero health issues. high fructose corn syrup is only ONE molecule different from BOOZE. People are cracked out on their poisonous diets. I'm all for legalizing ALL drugs so I can't say ban toxic sugar water and twizzlers, but i can say that there should be labels on coke and corn flakes akin to cigarettes. i also believe we should follow Canada with healthcare for all and not this bullshit ObamaCare taxation nonsense. The problem is special interests and corporations will not agree to this and they are the masters.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:59 | 2724257 tmosley
tmosley's picture

How about we give them treatment based on their contributions to society.  If they have contributed greatly, they get better care, whereas if they have contributed nothing, then they get less.  We could even distribute little tokens or coupons of some sort that could be used for medical care based on the amount and quality of goods and services provided to others.  These tokens or coupons could be traded to others in exchange for goods and services as desired, so that the drain on society from their consumption reduces the amount of medical service they can get.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:13 | 2724320 Matt
Matt's picture

Too easily corruptable. Join The Party and get "Best Contributor to Society" stamps, comrade!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:42 | 2724480 CharlieSDT
CharlieSDT's picture

I think he means money. 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:12 | 2724317 phalfa5
phalfa5's picture

super-size me

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:12 | 2724615 BeanusCountus
BeanusCountus's picture

This is such bs.  Long-term cost of healthcare has little to do with anyone's habits.  Vast majority of EVERYONE'S lifetime expenses occur in the last few months of life.  Everyone dies.  Bottom line is the longer you live the more you cost.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:41 | 2724752 Hohum
Hohum's picture


It's good that bad spelling and grammar will not kill you.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:11 | 2724249 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



"No mention of EMTALA and the anti-trust exemptions for the health care industry within? Then no solution," said Chuck Bone. 

Exactly, and holding providers to anti-trust standards, but not the insurers, makes no sense.  Unfortunately, exactly zero of our politicians truly understand any of this.  The law, just like HIPAA, was written by the health insurance lobby.

Healthcare and health insurance are not the same thing, despite what our corprotocracy and captured media tell you.

In the mean time, grow your own, raise your own, drink your own, and eat at home. 


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:12 | 2724315 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I prefer to hunt my own protein, but I do like to grill it at home.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:57 | 2724510 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

Love those pics HH!... love 'em... I'm not greedy ~ I'll take 'either one' of the NY strip sides, or the fillet sides of that... My only question is... Milk?... I'd take a Lone Star to go w/that... Looks like the side is zucchini & tomatoes mostly, correct?

Edit: oops ~ didn't see below

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:21 | 2724363 kengland
kengland's picture

Exactly. My grass fed Highlander's have more omega-3s than the fish the Okanawan's eat. The key is stop eating the shat coming from the factories. Go see how the beef, pork, birds you eat are raised. Eat fresh produce for two of your meals. It's that simple

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:30 | 2724371 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

How come some members have picture posting rights and others don't? I'm not envious, just like to know.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:32 | 2724423 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

You have not taken the secret oath of allegiance. Nor do you know the password. No ticky no laundry.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:33 | 2724430 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

The Tylers have to grant permission.

If you are witty and wise you may get to as well.... smile!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:40 | 2724464 fuu
fuu's picture

Article contributors can post pictures. Somewhere along the line HH had an article posted.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:43 | 2724477 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture early and often, just like voting in Chicago.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:32 | 2724428 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

Your picture is the doctor's description of death by food

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:47 | 2724456 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



Home-grown grass-fed grilled beef, fresh stir-fried vegetables from the garden, and fresh raw milk from our cow is a doctor's prescription for death by food?  I wonder what this doctor eats for dinner? 

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:54 | 2724533 memyselfiu
memyselfiu's picture

He's read the China Study donchanow? Meat is poison! LOL

A little redder for me, please. And my 90 year old grandfather who used to make the real 'pork rinds' from the fat backs and chew on them constantly....liked it red as well

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 19:42 | 2725697 _SILENCER
_SILENCER's picture

That's good eatin, right there

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:58 | 2724256 Freedom In Your...
Freedom In Your Lifetime's picture

No mention of ending government meddling in what people do / or don't do with health care? Then no solution.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:39 | 2724746 Praetorian Guard
Praetorian Guard's picture

The writer has it ALL wrong. You know how you solve this issue? Make ALL healthcare insurance ILLEGAL. Make everyone a SELF-PAY. By doing this health care costs would plummet to sustainable levels and the free market would dictate copays, drug costs, etc. based on what people could afford.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:39 | 2726147 honestann
honestann's picture

As much as I enjoyed reading your idea, which made me laugh out loud, I cannot endorse FORCE to STOP morons from buying health insurance.  However, it could be taken into account when deciding whether someone is in fact clinically insane.  Okay, that was a joke too (but just barely).

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:26 | 2724930 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Regarding end of life, if we all had the same rights as our pets when it comes to end of life issues, namely to end one's life with dignity if one wishes, you would see some massive savings not only financially, but emotionally. Tony Scott, brother of Ridley Scott and himself a director, threw himself off a bridge after finding out he had inoperable brain cancer. Que in the movie "Soylent Green". In one of the more remarkable scenes, Edward G. Robinsons charechter decides it's time to end his life and he checks himself into a departure center, and is put down. Now, I would never endorse a physically healthy human being put down. But, if Tony Scott, who has confirmed terminal brain cancer, knew he had the option of a painless and dignified death, instead of degenerating into helpless wreck of humanity possibly wracked with terrible cancer pain, he may not have thrown himself off a bridge. I wouldn't let my dog die a horrible death, yet my grandfather had to slowly waste away until he
ended up being a 35 pound, moaning, near-skeleton. Fuck that.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:24 | 2724934 holdingontomypants
holdingontomypants's picture

Talk about timing..while reading this article I received a call from an ex-employee who quit last January for no reason other then he didn't want to work. Apparently during this young person time off he had the urge to get his young wife pregnant.

Now he calls me because he is trying to get his wife on Arizona free healthcare program ACESS and needs a letter from us stating he hasn't worked for us since last January so that he can qualify for the free healthcare for the pending birth.

He has no qualms about putting this on the taxpayers to foot the bill for his and his wife irresponsibility to not have worn a .50 cent condom.

I am sure the WIC application is coming next along with cash assistance, section 8, ect.

When we as a society can fix that problem then we may start getting somewhere. The only thing I want to pay for all the losers like this guy is give them free condoms and/or vasectomies.

When I was in the Navy back in the 80's about a week before we hit a port call they would place these big boxes of condoms throughout the ship for us sailors to stock up on. They would also make you watch all the films about the various sexual diseases that you could catch without proper protection. Seeing somebody with huge swollen blue balls was enough of a deterrent to make you grab two handfulls of condoms.

If any of the guys did not heed the warnings and had unprotected sex and caught some nasty disease they suffered the consequences and learned what accountability was for their actions the hard way.

Somebody like my ex-employee doesn't have any consequences for getting his wife pregnant and will likely be getting her preganant again in the near future at taxpayers expense.

We have a fucked up system that rewards stupid and poor behavior by taking care of it for them and making sure they have a comfortable lifestyle on the taxpayers dime.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:38 | 2724163 prains
prains's picture



both lance armstrong and marion jones never took performance enhancing drugs

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:48 | 2724205 Shameful
Shameful's picture

Every pro athlete takes drugs, in every field.  The risk/reward profile is to lopsided, and the monitoring system is laughingly behind the times.  Besides lot of those drugs can appear 'normal' in the system with the advent of human identical hormones.  How do you tell the difference between those taking foreign substances and those just genetically gifted when it's the same chemical in the body?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:40 | 2724985 prains
prains's picture

the point is this is NOT news

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:39 | 2724167 john39
john39's picture

what he is proposing may sound attractive in a few respects... but the main point is fundamentally flawed... he wants more central control over people's lives... more government... more fascism...  just like the financial industry, this is the wrong answer because the people who are in control around the world cannot be trusted...  the system is corrupt, giving the corrupt system more control will only make things worse.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:46 | 2724200 InconvenientCou...
InconvenientCounterParty's picture

Finally someone acknowledges the link between liberty and health!

Let people doctor themselves and develop their own medications. If people want to experiment with different foods, great! eat dirt if you think that will promote health. Tell your neighbors what happened and in 3-4 generations we'll have this thing licked.

It's the only way to keep things ideologically pure.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:47 | 2724203 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

And you trust those not in control, those have proven limited (if any) ability to succeed, to have more control of their lives?

People take the path of least resistance, the easy lazy way.



Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:53 | 2724229 john39
john39's picture

so let's let government make all decisions and micro manage lives, more than it already is?  hardly seems to be a solution.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:15 | 2724329 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

People take the path of least resistance, the easy lazy way

What lazier way is there than working for an organization that has all the guns, a monopoly on force, and the power to coerce everybody else to give up their property...and it's all codified into law.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:06 | 2724580 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

It's even lazier if you are a shareholder who just collects dividends and votes for the board of directors.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 15:11 | 2724898 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

Without the people currently in control, subsidizing those with no self-control, those without control would probably be dead.  


Cause the problem = create the solution = control the power.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:58 | 2724255 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

That's my interpretation of it as well, I wish more people would see through this!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:50 | 2724483 Oldrepublic
Oldrepublic's picture

future: one con to another: what are you in for?

"I sold high fructose corn syrup to an undercover cop."

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:04 | 2724567 Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula's picture

>this is the wrong answer because the people who are in control around the world cannot be trusted

Of course.

And even well-meaning angelic beings could not implement a socialized healthcare system without their coercive interventions disrupting economic calculation, bringing about social loss.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:43 | 2724175 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Learn how to eliminate your diabetes risk in 3 minutes and cut your heath care costs by 50%.  Diabetes is the mother of other diseases like heart disease, stroke, cancer, kidney disease and macular degeneration.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:48 | 2724204 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Does this mean I can't have my whiskey and cigars to make this planet of apes bearable?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:50 | 2724217 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

Whiskey in moderation helps prevent diabetes (can cut risk by 30% to 40%).  Smoking tends to reduce weight and does not increase diabetes risk.  It increases risk of heart disease and lung cancer though.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:05 | 2724285 Jena
Jena's picture

Understanding your own risk factors is the key to understanding how to make the most of what genetic factors you have to various diseases.  We all have them.  Look at your family tree and live accordingly.  Or don't.  But JO is right.  Diabetes is the mother of so many chronic and miserable diseases; it's a nasty way to go and Type 2 is completely preventable.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:12 | 2724316 pods
pods's picture

and curable.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:41 | 2724176 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

"We spend WAY TOO MUCH money on end of life care."


I don't disagree, but now you are getting into eugenics and that is literally the last thing I want the government involved in...It would be a matter of time before the gov't started diagnosing the whole ZH community as 'crazy' and have them put down.


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:19 | 2724350 Jena
Jena's picture

The thing that pisses me off most about the IPAB (ACA) is that the panel of 15 contains no medical personnel at all at this point.  Their decisions will not be altered or appealed via judicial or legislative means and no patient or doctor will be able to go around them in any way.  If someone is turned down for a hip replacement, they'll have to go out of the country to get it.

For anyone who says we have 'death panels now because of insurance companies that discriminate on the basis of monetary considerations', I say yes but there are ways around that.  Money can be raised, there are charitable foundations and even insurance companies have been known to reverse their decisions.

The IPAB decisions will affect millions and we don't know upon what they will base their criteria.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:36 | 2724729 KK Tipton
KK Tipton's picture

"The IPAB decisions will affect millions and we don't know upon what they will base their criteria."


Oh ho ho ho......ho ho ho.....let me tell you.

"10. be not a cancer on the earth - leave room for nature - leave room for nature"


Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:42 | 2724472 Matt
Matt's picture

There is a difference between killing people versus not extending their life.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:18 | 2724644 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Not in the eyes of the government.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:31 | 2724702 odatruf
odatruf's picture

Fucking A, Matt, will you please write this a million more times, wherever, whenever you can?  And you can add that me not buying shit for someone is NOT the same as me preventing them (or giving a shit) from having it?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:41 | 2724177 Aziz
Aziz's picture

A government big enough to give you everything you "need" is big enough to take everything you have.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:46 | 2724199 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

Was that you or Thomas Jefferson that said that?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:26 | 2724386 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Actually it was Gerald R. Ford.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:52 | 2724811 Matt
Matt's picture

You didn't make that quote. Somebody else made that happen.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:43 | 2724181 not fat not stupid
not fat not stupid's picture

The reddest states are the fattest states. Coincidence? I think not.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:57 | 2724214 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

A stupid fucking 'non-sequitir' comment like that one deserves to be followed up by another one...


OK... For shits & giggles... I say that fat people shouldn't be allowed to vote... Let's try that one out and see where it leads us... It couldn't be any worse than any of the other stupid ideas out there... [that was SARC peeps]

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:51 | 2724220 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Are you saying the Blue states are more in tune with their inner Anorexic model?

The truth is fat and skinny don't matter, it's all genetics.

When those little dna timebombs go off ain't no amount of cycling or colonics gonna save your ass.

Right now we can diagnose illnes but not cure it. We don't have the capacity for genetic repair, yet.




Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:01 | 2724268 Shameful
Shameful's picture

If it's all genetic then why don't I see newsreels of fat as fuck American GI's fighting in Europe and Asia during WW2?  Those Germans and Japanese never had a chance against out 350lb Big Boys!  Or the monstrous she whales waiting to greet the GIs as they came home?

Or are you claiming that within living memory Americans have undergone radical genetic change from their ancestors, and if so I'd love to see a study.

If a person is fat it's because of what they eat.  Sure a lot of what passes as food is nothing but toxic garbage, but they are still eating it.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 14:58 | 2724832 Matt
Matt's picture

Enviromental toxins plays a big part, too. The amount of fat cells in your body is determined before birth; the cells themselves only change in size, not number, as you get fatter/thinner. Pregnant women coming into contact with plastics, synthetic hormones and other toxins change the baby's body in many ways. At least according to some studies:

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 22:32 | 2726130 honestann
honestann's picture

!!!!!  OUCH  !!!!!

Be careful, evidence may cause brains to explode!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:07 | 2724294 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Bullshit..genetics play a big roll but so does proper nutrition and a healthy lifestyle. The garbage people eat and the sit on their ass lifestyle is not healthy.You sound like Rush Limbaugh Gully.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:09 | 2724299 the tower
the tower's picture

I agree, it's all genetics. Now put me on disability so I can eat eat eat and watch TV, all paid for by the government and our sponsors.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:28 | 2724399 TWSceptic
TWSceptic's picture

Genes only make it easier or harder, not impossible. Stop making excuses for yourself and others. Be responsible for your own problems.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:48 | 2724497 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

The truth is fat and skinny don't matter, it's all genetics.

If you are saying fat/skinny are genetic, I am going to call bullshit. From whom do people generally learn their diets/lifestyles? Diet and lifestlye can be changed with proper knowledge, and willpower. None of this is hardwired, but a product of environment.

All of my immediate, and most of my extended family are overweight, several are type 2 diabetic, one is type 1. While they ate fried salad smothered in ranch dressing, with a side of chicken fried steak and soda, and were barely able to make it up a flight of stairs, I was out riding my mountain bike, or reading the labels at the grocery store wondering why most peanut butter contained sugar.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 18:49 | 2725569 Braverdave
Braverdave's picture

The last time I heard "it's all genetics" the guy saying it was a fatty.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:24 | 2724364 Blindweb
Blindweb's picture

Go to a public area in a rich liberal town.  What you will find is skeletal sickly looking people with terrible skin...  Whole grains, vegetable oils, legumes, fruit juice, organic cane that makes sugar all better.  I wouldn't touch any of that garbage. 

Who's worse the fat fucks who at least can claim ignorance and lack of resources?  Or the pseduo-intellects who have the access to education and resource but still eat a terrible diet (and try to push it on everyone else)

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 13:34 | 2724437 lunaticfringe
lunaticfringe's picture

Fat comes and goes, stupidity last forever.

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:44 | 2724186 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

DIY dentistry, bitchez!

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:44 | 2724188 reader2010
reader2010's picture

The Big Pharmas own the food companies. What do you expect?

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:46 | 2724189 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Some good ideas but the mass mind is too far down the garden path to a supposed Eden.  I can see it now...clear stream, pears, apples, manna...

Tue, 08/21/2012 - 12:44 | 2724191 chistletoe
chistletoe's picture



disallow any insurance payments or government payments *(medicare, medicaid, disability) for any medical bill whatsoever.

Make everyone pay cash.


Draconian, yes, but it would work.



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