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Guest Post: It Is Time For The Ron Paul Revolution To Move Beyond Politics

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Brandon Smith of Alt-Market,


In the lead up weekend to the RNC convention, Tampa, Florida was awash in political electricity.  It was so prevalent you could sense it in the corridors of air terminals across the country before you ever made it to that hot humid peninsula in the south.  I admit, to be caught up in it is exciting.  The ideal of democratic participation, the feeling of rejuvenation and community, joining the ranks of one’s ideological brethren to charge into intellectual combat for the future of our nation.  If any of it was real, I would have been truly inspired.  Unfortunately, I was well aware that the Republican convention was a farce, and knew full well what the end result would be for the Ron Paul campaign.

I had the privilege of being invited by the organizers of Paulfest, a Liberty Movement Woodstock of sorts, to give a speech on alternative economics and solutions to the general crisis we face as a country in the near future.  On the long flight I found myself surrounded by GOP fanboys and even a Secret Service agent, as well as the endless FOX and CNN cavalcade reports on terminal TV’s during layovers.  If you were in the middle of it, you would think something “important” was about to happen.  If anything, it only clarified my concerns that there is still far too much that needs to be accomplished before the year of 2012 is over.

Arrival at Paulfest revealed immediate conflicts between the Ron Paul campaign and its base support.  Certain Ron Paul staff (namely the infamous Jesse Benton) had been going out of their way to stiff and in some cases sabotage the event despite Ron Paul’s words of appreciation to those involved.  Benton has had a long track record of venom against Ron Paul’s base supporters, which he referred to as “big fringe elements” in texts to potential speakers including Peter Schiff, to persuade them from partaking in the festival:

Benton has on numerous occasions kicked out alternative news journalists from Ron Paul events in a move to sterilize the press box. When the RNC deliberately buried states with large Ron Paul delegate counts in the bleachers at the back of the building where television cameras would not notice them, complaints to the GOP and the campaign abounded, and an audit of the RNC was even called for.  Yet, Benton responded snidely, saying:

“I am glad so many of our delegates get to sit close together.”

It has become clear that Benton and others have been “handling” Ron Paul for a considerable portion of his campaign and attempting to divorce him from the elements of the movement which are seen as “extreme” or anti-establishment, even though these are the same elements that catapulted Ron Paul into the minds of average Americans.  My impression is that they have been targeted for surgical removal because they are impossible to co-opt for the purposes of diplomacy (submission) with the Neo-Con elites running the GOP carnival. 

Rand Paul’s recent endorsement of Mitt Romney is not surprising given the parasitic nature of particular campaign organizers who buzz about him, including Benton.  The bottom line is that some people in the movement are not in it to fight for freedom, or to ensure a brighter and more Constitutional Republic.  Some are in the movement to further their political careers and ambitions, and are perfectly willing to use the energy of popular candidates to carry them to success.       

Sadly, this is the ultimate weakness of the political ideal; regardless of how honest and forthright a candidate is, even a principled luminary like Ron Paul can be undermined by those closest to him if he is not careful.  Millions of people relying solely on the tenuous chance of victory of a single man in a single rigged contest is NEVER a recipe for liberty.

The internal conflict was a source of tension and depression for many who only wanted to see unity within the movement, a final hurrah for Ron Paul, and a last drive towards a respectable showing at the RNC.  The problem is that for some reason there was an expectation among some Paul revolutionaries that there would be a semblance of “fairness”.  I’m not sure why considering that after four years and two presidential campaigns there has never been a single moment of fair-play in the GOP towards Ron Paul or the Liberty Movement in general.  We have been the targets of mass media attacks, Republican con-games, and even DHS profiling.  How anyone could think that Ron Paul was going to win by playing a game in which the rules are written and re-written (literally, as we saw with the GOP state delegate selection process changes) by the corrupt system is beyond me.

The most I had ever hoped for was a broken and perhaps chaotic RNC (a rightful punishment for the Neo-Cons), and the expansion of truth.  For me, the Ron Paul campaign has always been a vehicle for the movement to expose the reality of our society to those half-hypnotized by the doldrum madness of the mainstream.  I never saw it as a solution to our vast problems in and of itself. 

Those of us who come from a macroeconomic background tend to have a more grounded vision of time.  That is to say, we know the potential danger, and have a more profound sense of urgency than those who only approach activism through politics.  We have mathematical insight, not just social or intuitive insight, into the approaching storm.  This comes not only with certainty, but extended responsibility.  During a round table discussion which included myself, Stewart Rhodes of Oath Keepers, Chuck Baldwin, and many other fantastic voices of the movement, I found that the boys from Montana had our work cut out for us in moving the discussion away from the purely political.  The talk touched on alternative strategies, including self sufficiency and independent living, but gravitated time and again back to “finding new candidates to take Ron Paul’s place”, and coming up with new protest venues. 

I was not able to take an accurate tally, but my ballpark guess is that though there are millions of Ron Paul supporters out there, at least half are completely unprepared for any kind of crisis event, and really do believe they have four more years to wait in quasi-hibernation while America hangs by a thin fiscal thread.  It is not my intention to drive a wedge between “preparedness Ron Paulers” and “political Ron Paulers”.  Far from it.  But really, these folks should know better.

Stewart Rhodes’ speech at Paulfest was the most shocking for many of the political Paulers, as well as the most necessary.  He removed the kid gloves completely as well as any feel-good rhetoric, stating that the GOP as a party was dead, and deserved to be, letting the Paul folks know that any further strategy of attempting to “infiltrate” the Republican establishment and turn it over to the side of good was a waste of time.  He also stated that it is no longer enough for the movement to play around as “intellectual warriors”, they might soon have to become real warriors.  I agree.

In my speech, I gave clear cut and tangible solutions to Paulfest attendees, including alternative markets and barter networks, commodity based currencies, micro industries and localized business models, useful trade skills, off-grid living, preparedness, and if all else fails, real revolution.  Not idealized intellectual activism under the catchy label of revolution, but fists in the air and rifles in hand revolution.  The kind that scares the crap out of most, not because of its danger, but because of its finality of purpose.  The will to fight, really fight, is frightening, especially to those who cling to the belief that one can reason with his opponents.  The cold hard fact is; some men are not men.  Some men are monsters, and reason is the last thing that will ever sway them…

I also closed with an admission; that I fear little for the future.  Despite the flaws of the Ron Paul campaign, the elections, and the movement in general, there is something to be said for the miracle that has occurred since 2008, and I do mean “miracle”.  Four years ago, an activist speaking against the Federal Reserve, for instance, would be immediately met with attacks from all sides and outnumbered 50 to 1.  Today, the roles are reversed.  The internet is teaming with life and defenders of liberty while the majority of Americans and even Congress are calling for an audit or end of the Fed.  The preparedness culture has exploded with dedicated families willing to make the terrifying leap into a once alien lifestyle.  The mainstream media has been crushed by alternative outlets; as their numbers dwindle into oblivion, ours skyrocket in turn.  All in all, it is not a bad time to be a champion of the Constitutional philosophy, and the existence of such a movement gives me enduring optimism.  I do not “think” we will prevail; I KNOW we will prevail.  

As I sat in the Sun Dome in Tampa witnessing the last speech of Ron Paul’s campaign career, I felt the loss that lingered within the crowd, but this was not the end.  Not to sound callous, but frankly, the best thing that could have happened to the movement today was a farewell from Ron Paul and an end to the political theater that most have been caught up in for the better part of this year.  The game is over.  The real battle begins. 

Ron Paul did more for the movement than many of us had ever dreamed.  He forced the Constitution back into the mainstream when we needed it most.  He breathed life into America once again.  But now, his job is done.  Rand Paul will not carry the movement forward, nor will any other candidate, at least not in the short time this nation has left before it becomes entirely unrecognizable. 

Now, Ron Paul activists will be forced to walk away from the chessboard and to examine the legitimacy of bottom up solutions at the local level, rather than being obsessed with the top down drudgery at the federal level.  They will have to insulate themselves using decentralized economic systems and self sustaining living methods.  They will have to learn to produce necessities for themselves, and to interact within their communities face to face.  They will be compelled to educate local police and military to wake them up to the civil catastrophes ahead.  If they do seek out political strategies, it will have to be at the county and state levels, where there is at least a chance of making viable progress.  And, most of all, they will have to adopt a self-defense mindset in addition to intelligent discourse.  They will have to become what I would call ‘Warrior Poets’ in the shadow of this dark age.  They will have to think, and feel, but also be willing to fight, and perhaps even die for their principles.  They will have to become whole men and women, rather than incomplete people, projecting all their hopes and dreams into a governmental white knight that will never come. 

Ultimately, politics has been warped into a mechanism by which the masses can hand over their responsibility to affect change within the system they live, and pass the buck on to others.  It is time to move away from this failed dynamic.  It is time for the Ron Paul revolution to mature, and to embrace the pain of doing what must be done.  It is time to take matters into our own hands.


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Sat, 09/01/2012 - 16:06 | 2755325 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

The system will self-destruct on it's own, but who wants to wait? There are ways to hasten it's demise, civil disobedience, declaring one's own debt jubilee (again why wait?), spreading the word, etc.

Fight them everywhere you can - the legislature, the courts, on the street. In a non-violent manner of course.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 16:18 | 2755345 Ima anal sphincter
Ima anal sphincter's picture

What would scare you more, !0,000 people with signs or 10,000 people with guns? Just say-in.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 16:31 | 2755364 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

I'm here to promote ecomonic change and a return to the free market, by natural and inevitable forces. Scaring people has nothing to do with it.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 17:36 | 2755456 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Requiem for a Lightweight: Ron Paul. He coulda been somebody, y'know? Gone 3rd Party and put the Whigs, er, Republicrats out-of-business right now. Instead. when the GrandOldPedophiles threatened his son's political "career", he collapsed. Pitiful spectacle. Gist of the essay, that it's now bullets not ballots, on target.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 17:51 | 2755469 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

Agree by staying a die-hard Republican RP 'lost the war' even if he won some battles, he should have denounced the Reps a few years ago and went 3rd party that could have been his real legacy that actually accomplished something, maybe not now but in a few years. The system is ready to collapse and what is ready to fall over deserves a good push

The best way of achieving that is to form a 3rd party and get the system off balance, it's only holding on by it's last threads, give it a good shove and it's gone.

This 3rd party does not need to be big, anything at or about 5% would suffice to scramble the power brokers calculations, imagine this like a board game with every new 'dimension' to the game the complexity increases exponentially that is why they need to keep it a 2 way system because anything more that this quickly becomes unpredictable, it breaks peoples 'us vs. them' mentality and gives the voter a 'none of the above' option

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:06 | 2755496 boogerbently
boogerbently's picture

Grow up.

He, like you, could recognize the futility in fighting the two-party system.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:40 | 2755508 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

I think you hit the nail on the head 'fighting' is a old-fashion idolized romantic concept and simply has no place in battle, it's all about winning hat matters not fighting

This is the 1st mistake any body makes entering combat(no matter what combat even ideological) all they want is a nice clean fight, no no no it's all about winning that matters even if you have to stick a live grenade in a white pigeon and send it to your enemies camp, you start all your planning with how are you going to win not how are you going to fight

.. this is what I think lacked/lacks in the whole RP Revolution thing, there is no concept of 'how are we going to win' it's all about the fight not the kill shot

The concept now it seems is 'we are going to enlighten people and when we reach a critical mass it will all magically come together', this has a very small chance of working(if at all) a better strategy would be(but not exclusively) to completely break free of the old right vs. left paradigm form a new political entity(because you need representation) and coalesce around it trying to win counties and states(bottom up not top down) and gradually form 1st passive than active resistance against the Feds, just for starters, if we or RP started doing this say 4 years ago we'd be a whole lot further now, but truthfully I think it's all to late now we had(past tense) our chances it's going to go down hill anyway you spit at it

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:42 | 2755518 11b40
11b40's picture

Rule # 1 in guerrilla warfare - he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.

Hit & run.  Max damage - minimum exposure.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:04 | 2755594 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"Now, Ron Paul activists will be forced to walk away from the chessboard and to examine the legitimacy of bottom up solutions at the local level, rather than being obsessed with the top down drudgery at the federal level."

Forget about the national media, political parties and the political system.  To quote George Carlin "They don't give a fuck about you."  You need to work at a grass roots, person-to-person level.  The internet is not enough.  And it won't be easy.  Over time as things unravel, it will get easier. 

You are all missionaries delivering the good word to the heathens.  Keep the faith.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:00 | 2755663 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

To quote George Carlin, "Don't vote."

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote -- who did not even leave the house on Election Day -- am in no way responsible for that these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created." - George Carlin

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:05 | 2755775 Dalago
Dalago's picture

You guys and gals should take a look at Free State Project.  Its explanding state by state.  Its freaking awesome!!!

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 03:47 | 2755937 Michael
Michael's picture

I think people should burn massive amounts of CDs recorded in HD of Clint Eastwood's RNC convention speech and hand them out to democrats, republicans, and everybody you see for free.

Here's something you can physically do;

Get off your asses and become a part of the solution.


It looks like the view count of likes and dislikes ratio on this video is what I usually get here on this ZH site.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 04:58 | 2755953 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

The Rand Paul movement is what's up. When the roof comes down on the currency, someone with some common sense needs to take over. The other guys don't even know what currency is.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:25 | 2756056 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

The kind that scares the crap out of most, not because of its danger, but because of its finality of purpose.

The problem is that most cannot come to grips with the simple fact that history may have chosen them to be the ones who fight and die, but not to be among the ones (later) to see the benefits.  Others cannot get past the fact that, once unleashed, war quickly loses its righteous appeal and becomes about simple survival, getting enough to eat, not freezing to death. staying a die-hard Republican RP 'lost the war' even if he won some battles, he should have denounced the Reps a few years ago and went 3rd party that could have been his real legacy that actually accomplished something, maybe not now but in a few years.

You are obviously a young person who doesn't know anything. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:26 | 2756107 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Rand Paul is no Ron Paul. Rand will say or do anything to keep his senate seat.  He is a wanna be Neo-con, waiting to drop some of the "Dreams From His Father".  Let Jessie "Judas" Benton take over Rand's future campaigns.

Ron should announce he is running third party on Leno's show Tuesday night.  He still has $2.5 million in his warchest, and devout followers whom would get him on the ballot in most states.  Jessie Benton (who is married to RP's grand-daughter) should be fired for treason.  Let Lew Rockwell take over the the third party run campaign.  Let Ron go out as the "spoiler" for Mittens, it would serve the GOP right for how they treated Ron. Ron Paul and Judge Andrew Napolitano running on the "Liberty Party" or "Freedom Party" or "Common God Damn Sense Party"......


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 12:11 | 2756276 your neighbor
your neighbor's picture

wouldnt it be faster iand easier if he just became Gary Johnson's running mate?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:40 | 2756460 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

That's an option, too.  Ron could drop $2.5 million into the Johnson campaign upon arrival.  Then raise a bunch more, maybe even get a super pac to back them.  They won't win, but boy would that upset the apple cart.  With the right message, they could pull 10-15% of the vote away from Obamney.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:46 | 2756469 Michael
Michael's picture

Nice bump in view count even after this thread got stale.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:48 | 2755854 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

it's simple - if you vote, you've given "them" space in your mind, opened to the door to pretending this system can be changed by a simple, lazy few minutes offering up an opinion on lousy "choices" (candidates).

you do this, you're stuck in their game. . . if you allow your mind to acknowledge the farce, the dishonesty, then you free up brain cells to pursue a deeper truth about the system we labour under. 

anything else is a mind capture - you're either "hopeful" one man can change a huge juggernaut that's been in motion since before any of you were born, or you tell yourself the truth(s) and learn to take action accordingly.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:38 | 2756070 mendigo
mendigo's picture

That is one of the two optimum outcomes in our single party system - congradulations you are a loser.
As a start it would be helpful if all of those who do not bother to vote would find thier way to register and vote for anyone other than the repubicrat candidates. Please, repeat after me:
I will register.
I will vote.
I will never under any circumstances vote for any republican or democratic candididate or surrogate thereof as long as I shall live.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 22:36 | 2755757 grok
grok's picture

here's that epic Carlin bit:

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 06:57 | 2755986 koaj
koaj's picture

I had a foreign policy discussion last night at a bbq with family friends and parents of...mainly about blowback and false flags and potential government involvement. I got them to admit that our government may have had a hand in or advance knowledge or made up the Lusitania sinking, Pearl Harbor (advance code received on the attack), the Gulf of Tonkin, the Iraq/Iran war butat 9/11 everyone says NO WAY and still believes the official story.

I hate going down truther road because thats not my forte, but i did get 7-8 people to open their minds to things they never would have and more importantly to question their government

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 07:28 | 2756008 AG BCN
AG BCN's picture

You planted a seed, that's all that matters. Well done. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:17 | 2756051 koaj
koaj's picture

still amazes me how people who dont trust the CBO, BLS, FBI, or any politician would believe the official 911 story


i was working downtown when it happened so i saw the planes hit and felt them but i havent a clue as to why or how it could have happened. people hating us for our freedoms seems a bit ridiculous

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:36 | 2756180 Umh
Umh's picture

Our freedom had nothing to do with it. Maybe it was the cruise missiles that broke the camel's back.


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:49 | 2756477 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

"people hating us for our freedoms seems a bit ridiculous"

You think?

Email them these links to a couple of great "What If" videos:


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:24 | 2755692 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

The idea that RP should start a 3rd party is beyond stupid. Once again, I ask my blinkered American friends to look NORTH. Little Stevie Harper won a majority government with 43% of the vote by allowing the LEFT to split its vote between our tired Liberals and our out of touch New Democrats.

The time for a right of centre 3rd party was 20 years ago, not today. Again, that matches what happened in Canada. After the collapse of the Mulroney Conservatives (who went from a majority to 2 - two! - seats), the right in Canada splintered between the old 'red' Tories and the new Reform party. It took a while, but eventually the right coalesced while the left disintegrated into the Liberals, the NDP, the separtist BQ, and the ludicrous Greens.

A much better strategy would be seed a new left wing party to steal votes from the Democrats. But I fear it's too late even for that. The American collapse is now too close, and too certain, for a new party to have any effect.

yes, bullets not ballots is going to be the deciding factor when the SHTF. No wonder the gov't has been stockpiling ammo.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:29 | 2755697 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Had he started a third party, he would have handed the election to Obama just like Perot handed the presidency to Clinton.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 22:03 | 2755727 CH1
CH1's picture

Who the hell cares?

Politics is for barbarians.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:45 | 2755851 logically possible
logically possible's picture

Who cares for the reason that their is no difference between Obama and Romney, they both have the same agenda.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:01 | 2756036 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

You may not like the comment, but look at the historical result of third parties.  The Bull Moose Party handed the presidency to Woodrow Wilson.  Dr. Paul brought a platform for smaller government to the party that claimed to be the party of smaller government and the oligarchs cheated him out of his day in the sun.  Dr. Paul did not approach the Republican Party as a spoiler or saboteur.   He approached the party with a legitimate agenda that represented his base.  The party insiders corrupted the process to place the Goldman Sachs candidate on the thrown. It was a coupe. Their reward may very well be the death of the Republican Party.


Political parties have a way of projecting images that are opposite to their core nature.  The Democratic Party is the party of former slave holders.  It was founded by a slave holder.  It claims to be the party of the working man but its agenda has done much to keep the underclass on the plantation.  The Republican Party was founded by a Federalist mascaraing as a populist.  He claimed to champion individual freedom while he suspended habeas corpus, killed hundreds of thousands of his countrymen and crushed states’ rights.


Both parties joined hands to strip the Bill of Rights from the Constitution when they passed and Obama signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act.  Both parties are now dominated by Federalist.


The oligarchs that rule this country are hard pressed.  A hundred million more rounds of hollow points will do little to drop the price of oil or reduce the deficit.  Another legion of Homeland Security will not bring rain to the heartland.  The bribes used to keep the oligarchs in power are losing their potency with every new printing.


The Rube Goldberg machine that is our modern day government can only be sustained by perpetual growth.  Dr. Paul knew that at some point the system would crash into the wall of natural limits.  He offered a reasoned solution.  That solution was rejected by the power brokers.  Now, a noisier, less reasoned solution will be found and in that solution may lie the death of one or both of the Good Old Boy Parties.   



Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:38 | 2756069 CH1
CH1's picture

Cloud: I know you've put a lot of sincere thought into this and that you have arrived at reasoned conclusions. But...

IMO, there is a deeper look required - into the nature of the state itself. Many of us contend that it is, by nature, a parasitic, thieving, deceiving institution. And, because it is by NATURE such an organization, it should be discarded as a barbaric relic. We can do better and BE better apart from it.

You, of course, will have to consider this for yourself and arrive at your own conclusions.


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:14 | 2756101 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

CH1 my friend, I wish I could place my faith in the noble savage and strive for a stateless society.  Unfortunately, I have lived long enough to discover what evil lies in the hearts of men.  There is a reason I willingly submit to the indignity of a stop light.  It is the simple desire to get through the intersection alive.   The Framers knew that they had to balance the demands of the mob on one hand and the dictates of the tyrant on the other.  The original compromise was the best I have seen.   The age old debate between the Jeffersonians and the Hamiltonians still rages.  For the moment the Hamiltonians hold the upper hand.  The hubris of all central planners lies in their assumption that they know enough to centrally plan.  Society is organic.  It is too complex.   The state provides some benefits in legally grounding a man’s right to life, liberty and property.  Safeguards must exist to protect the weak from the strong. The separation of powers, the federal system and the bold bright lines contained in the Bill of Rights were designed to reign in the state while keeping in check the dictatorship of the majority.  The state is parasitic and when it grows to the point that it kills the host then it too dies.   We are not at that point yet, but the balance between the states, the people and the federal government is out of kilter. That balance will be restored.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:53 | 2756119 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"Unfortunately, I have lived long enough to discover what evil lies in the hearts of men."

Then why give a monopoly over all society to such evil?  The worst of them will eventually find their way to government office.  The demogogues. The hucksters.  The world improvers.  The most competent psychopaths.  Your cure is worse than the disease.  Pass.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 15:16 | 2756516 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture


If you do not have a state then you have anarchy.  While it is thrilling to imagine a world like that found in Jericho, One Second After and Alas Babylon, societal collapse will not produce a world for old men or young children.  The novelty will wear off when the food runs out and the brigands show up.  The way to constrain the Leviathan is to cut the size of the beast.  We need to cut government spending by five percent every year for the next five years.  When we have done that, we can take pause and see where we are.  Growth is not sustainable.  The long contraction must be managed.  If it is not managed we collapse.  

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 16:15 | 2756450 IrritableBowels
IrritableBowels's picture

Glad you opted for the 'traffic at the intersection' analogy to discredit a freer society. Eat your heart out:

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:34 | 2756453 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

Perot had no intention of winning.  That's why he picked an old duffer for VP running mate.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:26 | 2755834 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

Dishonest. The Canadian parliamentary system is very much different from the US system. Yes Harper won with a minority of popular vote and but he has an active opposition in parliament. Even with a majority. And there is room for third (and fourth) parties. And there is room for electoral reform especially with respect to ridings. 

That being said ... that this poster is actively advocating bullets - troll or government worker.

Very different political culture... this guy was voted Greatest Canadian Ever:

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 01:48 | 2755878 joe6px
joe6px's picture

So your idea is that we swallow the least offensive poison instead of voting our free mind and conscience?  Shame on you.  Shame on any prostitute that sells their soul for a crumb of bread!  You are the reason our children will suffer!  Put on your pants and stand like a man damn you!

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 09:22 | 2757464 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture

Vote out incumbents. Take your revenge on sitting pols.  Vote for every independent, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Partier you can find.  Break the tag team parties.  Then you might regain your political voice.  Washington knew that political parties once entrenched would ruin the nation.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 18:33 | 2756742 Ponzi_Scheme
Ponzi_Scheme's picture

Mulroney was an ass hat crook like the fucker Peterson in Ontario. Both destroyed their parties with their corruption. Never charged but the people knew. A provincial MP explained to me it was all a out loyalty to the top and never question their agenda. They owed their success to the top of the ticket... That is Canadian politics. It is not local.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:30 | 2755509 Turin Turambar
Turin Turambar's picture

I disagree.  I understand both sides of the argument.  Each has its points.  Ultimately, the United States is in dire need of an intellectual awakening, and those who are part of the Liberty movement are already awake.  I believe Dr. Paul was able to sow the seeds of liberty in a much broader field as a part of the Republican party, marginalized as he was.  I commend him and thank him for it.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:41 | 2756188 brettd
brettd's picture

Spot on.

It's taken 100+ years to get here.  It's not going to revert in 10.

I suggest RP for Sec of Education, so we can start educating the next generation. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 12:05 | 2756269 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"A new UCLA study1 is the first to show how a steady diet high in fructose can damage your memory and learning. The study was published in the Journal of Physiology."

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:49 | 2755920 pies_lancuchowy
pies_lancuchowy's picture

he should have denounced the Reps a few years ago and went 3rd party that could have been his real legacy that actually accomplished something, maybe not now but in a few years.                              Well, funny thing is that he actually did it several years ago, you just can't remember that, being a 17-year old internet advisor to a 76-year-old Congressman. He has run for President without GOP , and accomplished NOTHING. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:39 | 2756118 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Youre right, of course. When he went 3rd party he got no media coverage and wasn't allowed in major televised debates either. So not only didnt he win, his message didn't get out to many people. - - Something else the kiddies don't know.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 07:53 | 2756028 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

A third party is not possible with the current electoral college majority to win election system.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:52 | 2756478 Umh
Umh's picture

It's not the electoral college that makes the U.S. a two party system it's the fact that coalitions can't be formed after the election. This being the case in the U.S. coalitions are formed within the parties before the elections.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 22:26 | 2756958 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

Agreed. The electoral college just highlights exactly what you explained.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 01:28 | 2757114 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Does Ron Paul even believe any of this? I've never heard him say anything about preparedness or revolution. This is all words being put in his mouth by people with their own agendas.

RP has remained a republican. That means he probably believes in reforming the system, not tearing it down. Of course his organizers distance themselves from the radical element. RP probably wants to have nothing to do with them.

Too bad Ron Paul doesn't communicate more clearly. He has allowed himself to be everyone's mirror, instead of having his own voice. I've heard him say he doesn't even know what's on his web site.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:29 | 2755631 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

"Requiem for a Lightweight:"

I find it strange (and "pitiful" too) that you in the same breath call Ron Paul a "lightweight" and suggest that his unsuccessful bid for the Presidency leaves bullets as the only solution. 


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:43 | 2755644 philosophers bone
philosophers bone's picture

Agree 100% - There are lots of lightweights around and Ron Paul is NOT one of them.  When the history books are written, Ron Paul will be relevant.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 01:08 | 2755861 MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

Maybe, assuming history isn't revised by the Ministry of Truth.....

Which, btw, is a pretty big assumption.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 03:56 | 2755941 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Ron Paul and the rest of the Libertarian pointyheads and pencilnecks aren't even going to be a footnote. Political power - as usual in times of Crisis - will be determined by organized violence.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:30 | 2756109 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Ron Paul accomplished a great deal.  - - The real battle is for the hearts and minds of the American people. Their minds & spirits have been under attack for more than 100 years. There are many people who newly discovered the founding principles of the country, her history, and the US Constitution. There are many people who understand the Federal Reserve who previously didnt even know it existed.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans are still asleep. They hold tight to their neo-con dreams. They don't know - - - and they don't want to know - - anything which would upset their old notions. You cannot lead someone where they will not go.

It is also unfortunate that people seem to require going through a great deal of pain and hardship before they will give up their old prejudices. We can only hope that when that time happens, Americans will turn back to Liberty . . . rather than the often tread path of tyranny.

Ron Paul filled no small role in illuminating the right path to take for many people . . . particularly young people who tend to be more open to learning something new.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 12:41 | 2756321 Libertarian777
Libertarian777's picture

agreed. Ron Paul lost the battle to get to a national stage at the RNC / republican nomination.

He certainly has not lost the war. He's been speaking of an intellectual revolution and his movement has already passed the tipping point where it will self-sustain even when he passes.

His ideas of individual freedom, a constitutional republic (how we were founded), sound money, ending the fed, limited government, giving the power back to the people (self government) etc is gaining traction even in the mainstream. The best example is Neil Cavuto on Fox news. I remember him literally laughing at Ron Paul when interviewing him in 2008, and disparagining anything Ron Paul said. Nowadays Neil is a Ron Paul champion and gets him on his show as much as possible and LISTENS to Ron Paul. The fact that RP could get a neocon to listen without even doing anything is what has amazed me.

No matter who gets elected in November, both candidates (Obamaney) will end up in the same situtation and have the entire country asking how could 'we have been duped again?' (after 2x Bush and 2x Obamaney).

Our role as Ronbots is to make sure the conversation carries on for the next 4 years, to prevent a Germany type situation where, after civil unrest, the uprising of nationalism results in the majority voting for a 'saviour' who turns out to be anything but. Remember Hitler was elected after significant economic and political upheaval in Germany.

Keep the faith

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 01:55 | 2757129 mkkby
mkkby's picture

Your "hearts and minds" comment is spot on. This Brandon guy exemplifies what's wrong with the Ron Paul campaign. As soon as you start talking about alternative currencies and preparedness for some disaster, you lose 99% of the sleeping sheeple.

You've got to communicate in a way they understand, that's not threatening. Talk about corrupt bankers and bailouts, the different rules of law for corps vs the rest of us, prosecutors ignoring financial crimes, high cost of medical care/gas, foreign wars for oil instead of protecting our borders. People are already upset about these things. You don't need to scare them away with talk about crashing the system.

You idiots need to control yourselves. Then you will actually get enough votes so you'd be impossible to ignore.

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 02:41 | 2757149 Ar-Pharazôn
Ar-Pharazôn's picture

the system got the police and many firearms.... do you really think you can change something in a peaceful way?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 16:37 | 2755370 lotusblue
lotusblue's picture

Hurr Durr RP has no real solutions other than simplified demogougery-Yeah if you're a LAZY

THINKER or,younger than 30,this BIRCHER has ALL  the solutions! The reality is apathy in society and all of the polis will pay for this.

Structures in current existance are breaking down to be reused.Enjoy the ride and be part of

the eventual new system.Cycles of mans' folly continue till better comes along


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 17:57 | 2755487 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

I gave u a thumbs donw at 1st(group think i guess) but than I read your post again and must say I agree 90% of the way(maybe exception RP being a complete dud) however your general observation about humans is correct they will fester in their own excrement not till somebody pulls them out but till they die out and a new 'species' comes along and replaces them so thumbs up

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:12 | 2756044 Withdrawn Sanction
Withdrawn Sanction's picture

...your general observation about humans is correct they will fester in their own excrement not till somebody pulls them out but till they die out

And how did you manage to avoid the fate that apparently befalls all humans?  Exceptional?  Not human?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 11:03 | 2756211 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

"Exceptional?  Not human?" - Yes something in that direction

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:17 | 2755781 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Ant colony structures are broken down and replaced with ever larger ant colony structures. The internet is the current paradigm and can potentially encompass all 7+ billion people.

Generally, what you will get is the dumbing down of most of them, as was done by installing democracy.

The progression of technology promises a better future.

The progression of civilization does not.



Sun, 09/02/2012 - 01:10 | 2755864 MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

The rot and filth feels a lot like Gotham City, eh?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:10 | 2755881 joe6px
joe6px's picture

By your logic we should stand by and await the collapse.  There are consequences for such action.  There will be sayers and prophets, politicians, and local drug lords who will welcome such a crash.  In your antiseptic premonition you have dismissed the truth on the street.  You have exposed yourself as at least a phylosofical wanker, and at the far end any scale, one so removed from real life as to make your comments comical.  There is an underworld.  A vast uneducated, unrefined, ruthless horde that can not wait to prey upon you.  At the moment you can call the authorities to respond with like force...however, that time will end.  The sad ending is that Entropy will claim the scraps.  Plan accordingly.-1


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:23 | 2755501 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

There's a big difference between talking about 10,000 people with guns showing up somewhere to make a point and 10,000 people ACTUALLY showing up with guns to make a point.

That's why I at least gave OWS folks kudos for actually doing something that required some effort, sacrifice and discomfort with the possibility of getting violently dealt with by the owner's minions. Versus the Tea Party folks who usually just showed up in places with an agreeable audience, blustered a lot about government, then retreated to businessmen's breakfasts, Sertoma meetings and trying to take over their local Republican party while doing their best to avoid sacrifice, discomfort, and especially violence (although they talk about it a lot).

So, we'll see see if any crowd over 100 with guns shows up anywhere in reality, or if it will remain the fantasy of message board posters. It may happen, but I wouldn't bet on it, especially if the government just keeps up with this slow disintegration of rights, wealth, freedom etc... so that the sheep are slowly acclimated. Now, if the government does something drastic to force the issue, then we might see something. Or something may happen if more people are pushed to desperation with few options and no hope for the future. Until then I relegate this whole badass talk about 10,000 people with guns showing up somewhere to the bloggers wet dream fantasy bin. Just sayin'.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:47 | 2755524 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

As Chris Hedges has pointed out, strict adherence to nonviolent protest was absolutely essential to whatever success OWS achieved. Had they started employing violence, they would have instantly lost all trace of legitimacy. As Hedges also points out, nonviolence is a tactic, with a time and a place, and by itself does not make a revolution. And change comes with astonishing quickness when the time is right.

If you start bringing guns to political rallies, the suppression will be 1000 times more brutal than it was for OWS. And there isn't currently any group that is more organized, or has more guns, than the government right now.

Everything in good time. I tend to think that the collapse of the monetary house of cards will trigger some sort of change -- . A revolution is what, just three days away, if the grocery shelves are bare?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:55 | 2755530 Azannoth
Azannoth's picture

To see real change you need to see real blood, there is no way around it, you can pick your time and place and maybe the amount but spilling blood is what you have to do in the end

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:44 | 2755647 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

We do not advocate violence here. Your voice does not represent anyone here other than yourself and your fellow trolls, all of whom are probably working with you. 

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:56 | 2755658 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of partriots and tyrants.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 22:21 | 2755746's picture

That sounds like a lot of work. Can you recommend a low maintenance shrubbery instead?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:13 | 2755824 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Yeah, I'd use a little sprinkle of 5-10-5 and some bark mulch. Works like a charm.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:39 | 2755909 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

How about a Ficus of Freedom instead. Those things are almost unkillable.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:36 | 2756067 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"That sounds like a lot of work. Can you recommend a low maintenance shrubbery instead?"

That would be the Security Shrub.

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Benjamin Franklin

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:15 | 2756362 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Ben was a Federalist. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 17:25 | 2756677 CH1
CH1's picture

Maybe so, but that doesn't mean everything he said was always wrong.

Variable creatures, those humans....

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 21:36 | 2756905 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Nope, just his perspective was fucked, so the rest of his view's were likely motivated by ulterior factor's. 

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:32 | 2755799 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

So then,

the undercurrent, enabled by social media,

where everyone communicates,

much unlike the times of the origin of your quotation,

still has no clue how to cooperate,

recognize the mission,

apply awareness and intelligence,

be creative...

and resorts to blood as first choice?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:46 | 2756075 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

Are you kidding me? This government has been extremely corrupt, usurious, and oppressive since the turn of this century.

I'd say a decade's worth of warning from We The People is not the first choice.

OT Bonus:

LA Cops Bodyslamming Nurse Twice during Cell Phone Traffic Stop -

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 12:41 | 2756324 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

So you side with them that violence is the answer, that makes you as equally vile and statist as they are. Violence is Barbarism, and Barbarism always fuel's statism. It's a vicious fucking cycle, and to repeat it is to condemn your descendants to the same struggle you are living with today. 


Think before you speak, and understand before you act. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 21:16 | 2756890 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

So you're pusillanimous. Nothing wrong with that. The world needs victims.

I choose not to be victimized by anyone. If that means I must be "violent" and "barbaric" to prevent being victimized so be it.

But I beg to differ that it creates a vicious cycle. My experience has taught me that standing up to tyrrany breaks the cycle.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 12:39 | 2756316 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Hmm, sounds more like you are trying to recruit me into some more of your statist BS. 

Mon, 09/03/2012 - 02:06 | 2757136 mkkby
mkkby's picture

It is WAY WAY too early for violence to have any positive effect. Many more sheeple need to be woken up first. Violence now will just set the cause back to square one, because none of the sheeple will support what they don't understand.

Talk of violence is just immaturity. Do the hard work of communication first. It's too bad so much time was wasted on Ron Paul. He can't communicate a message in a way that enough people understand. It's not that hard, but he can't do it. Everyone understands and is already angry about the patriot act and other abuses of freedom, corrupt wall street and bailouts, a different set of legal standards for corps and lobbyists. A political platform built around these things would turn lots of dems and repubs.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:17 | 2755549 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Careful bringing up Chris Hedges around here. He's wayyyyy beyond the comprehension of many who lurk here, listen to Rush, Hannity, etc...

Yes on the grocery shelves. Or, if gas gets up over $5 a gallon for any length of time.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:55 | 2755587 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

I agree with much of what Chris Hedges says and he is worth a listen.  Just keep in mind that you will like many of his criticisms, but not so many of his solutions.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:43 | 2755645 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Hedges is a narcissistic chump. 

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:11 | 2755675 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

At least Hedges was actually in war zones and reported from them instead of rah, rahing from the states as all the rightwing mouthpieces do. He alone has more credibility and intellect than the entirety of the rightwing media brainwashing crew in America. He has a right to think highly of himself, unlike narcissists like Rush.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:12 | 2756359 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

For the anyone not familiar with Chris Hedges the following c-span clip is essential,

It's 3 hours long,  sorry there are no short sound bites for the attention deficient. 

“Inverted totalitarianism, unlike classical totalitarianism, does not revolve around a demagogue or charismatic leader. It finds expression in the anonymity of the Corporate State. It purports to cherish democracy, patriotism, and the Constitution while manipulating internal levers.”
? Chris Hedges, Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle

“Washington has become our Versailles. We are ruled, entertained, and informed by courtiers -- and the media has evolved into a class of courtiers. The Democrats, like the Republicans, are mostly courtiers. Our pundits and experts, at least those with prominent public platforms, are courtiers. We are captivated by the hollow stagecraft of political theater as we are ruthlessly stripped of power. It is smoke and mirrors, tricks and con games, and the purpose behind it is deception.”
? Chris Hedges, Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:14 | 2756361 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I was in both war zones doing the shooting, so he can suck my ass hole if he want's, but I will give him no respect for being who he is until he actually does something worth respecting.

Oh, and screw your BS right wing Left wing crap. Only a fool would think that shit is real. 


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:25 | 2755622 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

"As Chris Hedges has pointed out, strict adherence to nonviolent protest was absolutely essential to whatever success OWS achieved. Had they started employing violence, they would have instantly lost all trace of legitimacy."

Here's the problem with that theory:

"APD: Officers infiltrated Occupy movement"


"G20 Toronto Police Agent Provocateurs"

TPTB fight dirty. One can't win a dirty fight by fighting fair.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:53 | 2755655 Red Heeler
Red Heeler's picture

I'll assume the down vote isn't from a descendant of Patrick Henry.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:13 | 2755892 joe6px
Sat, 09/01/2012 - 18:58 | 2755532's picture


That's why I at least gave OWS folks kudos for actually doing something that required some effort, sacrifice and discomfort with the possibility of getting violently dealt with by the owner's minions. Versus the Tea Party folks who usually just showed up in places with an agreeable audience, blustered a lot about government, then retreated



Tea baggers have to go to work the next day. OWS, not so much.


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:40 | 2755543 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Tell me about it.

Trust fund babies and (charitably) vagabonds opining for socialism and "fairness" who can't even bring themselves to clean up for or after themselves. And the "intellectual left" asks themselves what happened?

Meanwhile, the TP didn't leave so much as a gum wrapper for someone else to clean up.

Its almost as if, OWS craved the very central planners they decried ;-)



Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:46 | 2755649 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's not that they want the Central Planners, it's that they want to be the Central Planners. 

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:59 | 2755725 nmewn
nmewn's picture


We saw it in what they promote, what they value, no individuality...mindless, unfocused rage at the people who are doing exactly what the mindless voters asked them to do. Gimme more more i-shit, how come that guy over there has more i-shit than I do?...there should be a law!!!

Where's my right to a free house? (That would be the bundled CDO via the CRA law you asked for).  Where's my free energy solar panel to power my free house? (That would be on a slow boat from China, unless you want to build it yourself). What? No way!!! I have rights!!!

Where's my right to free health care? (It seems, after careful consideration, potentiial doctors are in short supply, thinking about whose rights we're talking about here).

Fucking idiots.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:27 | 2755900 joe6px
joe6px's picture

I ask a simple question.  Why does a person who makes x amount of dollars pay less in taxes than a person who makes x-200,000 dollars?  How does such a tax scheme by a popular government, codified by x-thousand pages, excuse it's self for a 1.4 trillion dollar deficit?  Oh, that's right.  Over the last 50-100 years corporations have bought off government, exported jobs, and given worthless p.o.s. middle managers $xxx,xxx.xx bonuses on the tax payer dime.  Yeah, we should round up all protesters and have em branded like the sheep they are.  I'm not sorry for questioning your rhetoric.  I am not a socialist, communist, or any other collectivist.  I am a person who works hard and at the end of my physically demanding day hopes that my contribution to society makes a difference. You may make 100x my salary, but your intelect does not reflect your pay scale.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 07:15 | 2755997 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I am not a socialist, communist, or any other collectivist. I am a person who works hard and at the end of my physically demanding day hopes that my contribution to society makes a difference."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:10 | 2756357 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It's always the fault of those legal fictions, nevermind the individual's that hide behind the legal fiction and get you to believe in that same legal fiction so that they can continue to create more debt in your name and lay claim on your future wealth under the guise of providing you with a safe and confortable future. 


You've been lied to all your life, and you are stuck trying to understand what went wrong. So you get mad and lash out and find someone to blame, when in reality the only blame that should be laid is that within yourself for letting yourself be fooled for so long. 

Welcome to step one of waking up. 


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 14:43 | 2756465 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

And yet, they are the least qualified.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:25 | 2755789 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The OWSers are the children of the hunter-gatherers.

Hunter-gatherers don't have trash cans or trash bags.


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:14 | 2755546 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

That's what I meant about avoiding discomfort, sacrifice, etc... Most Tea Baggers are very heirarchical, structured, predictable, inside the box thinking, and all that. The owners know they will grumble a lot and make a lot of noise, but they aren't too much of a threat if they keep throwing them just enough table scraps to keep them feeling superior to the OWS folks.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:26 | 2755552 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Are you fucking serious?

Rank and file TP are the backbone of this's one of YOUR boys...Edward T. Hall the THIRD...enjoy...

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:43 | 2755573 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Rank and file TP will not cause the change we will see. They are the sheople. Hell most will watch themselves drown before stepping out of line or "causing a scene". Hence the reason the owners ride their backs into the dirt.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:52 | 2755582 Thoth
Thoth's picture

Yeah the TPers should take more drugs and rape eachother, THAT is what exacts change! Also, have you noted that OWS just wanted things paid for by the exact people you are condemning?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:12 | 2755608 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

I'm not condemning, just pointing out a difference between tough talk on a message board and reality. If you think TPers don't rape each other and take drugs, you are deluded.

I didn't say OWS was the answer, but I've seen them show up with signs and try to make a change while exposing themselves to many potential risks. Something I haven't seen from the TP crowd, let alone showing up with guns as stated above.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:28 | 2755626 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Getting someone else to pay for something is certainly a way to get their attention.  

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:10 | 2755606 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You didn't even watch your idiot OWS trust fund baby maggot did you?...too hard on your soft biased eyes perhaps, too hard to translate his reality into a divisiable number coming even close to the equality he knows nothing of?

Marx was just such a punk as this guy...dependent on Engals for the food in his own families mouth and a roof over their heads.

Oh yes, gimme some-a-dat...worthless fucks.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:20 | 2755617 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Wow, you have a whole precanned anti-Marxist speech lined up for a discussion about tactics. I can see you get emotionally distracted by your biases without looking at the topic being discussed. I can see the bigger picture is kind of beyond your grasp. Move beyond the Cold War thinking and might get somewhere.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:32 | 2755635 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Wow, you have a whole precanned anti-Marxist speech lined up for a discussion about tactics."

Yes I can't dispute anything I say because its the truth.

"I can see you get emotionally distracted by your biases without looking at the topic being discussed."

You brought up TP vs OWS tactics if I'm not mistaken.

"I can see the bigger picture is kind of beyond your grasp."

Well, seeing as how you're such a brilliant savant (or sumpin) why don't you enlighten me?...while I fire up the grill.



Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:32 | 2755798 Oldballplayer
Oldballplayer's picture

The rank and file TP folks elected enough folks in 2010 to toss some wrenches into the works.

The issue is we won then, and we stopped being pissed off. 

We need to remain focused....

Oh the game on?  I have to go.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:30 | 2755838 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

By the time TP got anyone elected it was nothing but a looney fringe of the Republican party. In fact, TP managed to lose a number of seats for the Repubs by convincing people to vote for the Democrat in the general election.

It's reasonable to say the OWS never got anyone elected, but that was not what they were after.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:35 | 2755906 joe6px
joe6px's picture

Non-sensical?  The OWS was a street movement.  The TeaParty was political from the outset.  Perhaps both movements could learn something from one another?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:32 | 2755561's picture


That's what I meant about avoiding discomfort, sacrifice, etc...


Because there's nothing uncomfortable about busting your ass to pay the bills?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:40 | 2755568 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

How is that going to create the change you seek? They will own you outright until you can see beyond the cage you willingly live in.

Keep working and bitching, I'm sure everything will change miraculously to your dream world because of it. That's where the rest of my post about being predictable, heirarchical, etc.. comes into play.

Now, if enough of you guys lose your jobs or social status, you might start catching a clue and coming up with a plan, but I'll bet my money or more of the same from the TP crowd.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 19:45 | 2755575's picture

You conveniently forget that folks have to eat and those nice little OWS kids are going to starve to death if Mom and Dad stop slogging to work every day. It's not like we're living on Yasgur's farm, you know.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:01 | 2755593 Ralph Spoilsport
Ralph Spoilsport's picture

+1 for the Yasgur's Farm ref.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:05 | 2755596 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

I didn't say OWS had the solutions either. I said they at least put up with more discomforts, sacrifice, etc... Your biases jump to the forefront. I see you have a nice, well-developed stereotype in your head and don't want to consider anything beyond it. Hence my earlier comments about predtitable, etc.. yet again.

Personally, I see neither group creating the change we will see. Both groups are still way too bought into the system for that to happen. We will need to see more pain doled out by the owners before anything significant happens and by then my guess is something new will develop that is well beyond the stupid left/right, TP/OWS labels we now have.

I've already said it above, it'll all be blogger bragging and tough talk on message boards until people get desperate and have no hope. UNtil then, they'll keep going to work, paying taxes, bitching. maoning and NOT showing up anywhere with a gun in their hand and 10,000 friends, as the original post of mine pointed out. You can point out where I'm wrong and why, but we will see who is right in the long run.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:23 | 2755621 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"I didn't say OWS had the solutions either."

Wisely, because they didn't.

"I said they at least put up with more discomforts, sacrifice, etc... Your biases jump to the forefront."


The temporary discomfort of leaving air conditionng, going down to the square, getting high, throwing shit around and then retreating back to mommy & daddies basement?

Or were you speaking of the tenured college professors, politicians and hollywood stars who appeared before the fetid tent city to give encouragment to the urban outdoorsmen AND THEN leaving to go back to their respective air conditioned, well stocked homes?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:07 | 2755672 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

You need to go to the Everything is Black or White board to argue with someone. I don't believe you will get what I am explaining as you haven't been able to pick up on it in the slightest thus far. So, I will leave you and your supreme intellect alone as I can tell I am dealing with someone who can just kick my ass up one side and down the other...yawn.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:36 | 2755704 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If you had half the intellect you ascribe to yourself,  you could explain it to me.

That means fuck off, from me to you.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:31 | 2756111 malikai
malikai's picture

+1 you're right on all counts. But you got to admit, the OWS crowd did do at least one thing right - getting their asses kicked badly in front of the TVs and in a most unjust manner by our friendly cops. Those events alone have done more to wake the (left?) people up to the evil nature of the state more than anything else, IMO.

I mean, where else would people have gotten the inspiration to make those "Demands more government (OWS) / More government (Cops)" images?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:55 | 2756130 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The really sad thing to me is, those who exhorted them on, didn't get their asses kicked as well, they never do.

As I say elsewhere on this thread...they went back to their air conditioned homes, faculty lounges, halls of congress, news bureau's and hollywood pool side chairs with a sort of proud smugness in themselves. They needed to be seen as relating to the "common man"...because they are not.

But you're right, the left (hopefully) was taught a powerful lesson. The state is something to be constrained at every opportunity NOT empowered. Anything made powerful enough to give you whatever you want is also powerful enough to take it away.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:42 | 2755914 joe6px
joe6px's picture

If you are to stand for a cause you must do so in such a manner that it does not bring question or blight.  You have lost the argument and instead of just leaving the thread you made an ass of yourself.  If someone, or anyone, does not 'pick up' on your argument then you are at fault for not making your statement clear.  You have a just cause, that is youth movement against a fixed system, you just quit before gaining any traction.  In this forum, you are lost.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:29 | 2755628's picture

You drew a clear line between the types of people you see as being OWS and Tea Party types and you claimed that OWS has street cred and the Tea Party doesn't. Don't pretend that you don't have biases of your own.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:04 | 2755670 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

I do have biases. The original poster implied the OWS folks showing up with signs was weak, and showing up with guns was the real deal with the the TPers being the obvious gun folks who would get things done.

I explained that this was blow hard BS and why it was BS. I know it ruffles TP feathers, but show me where I am wrong. No pro or anti Marxist diversions needed. This is about who is willing to take a harder risk and I explained why.

Just answer the question: Do you really think you will see 10,000 TPers not going to work and risking the possibility of arrest or being beat, pepper sprayed or shot while showing up with guns instead of signs to make their point? Or will they all go to work and point out that they need to put food on the table, pay the mortgage, bills, etc and bitch on message boards? I bet on the latter.

That doesn't discredit the TPers. However, the difference in risk is obvious to anyone with a brain cell. I'm just putting the whole 10,000 people with guns boast into perspective. We haven't seen the TPers take the leap toward risk of arrest, getting pepper sprayed, beat or shot yet, let alone showing up with guns to make their point. Does this compute in anyway?

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:16 | 2755684 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Just answer the question: Do you really think you will see 10,000 TPers not going to work and risking the possibility of arrest or being beat, pepper sprayed or shot while showing up with guns instead of signs to make their point?"

That question has already been answered by the Russians long ago (We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us) us, its just going Galt until they get off our backs on both sides of the ledger...(corporate & government).

We know who the enemy is...OWS and their supporters are still trying to figure it out ;-)

(Musical interlude)

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:26 | 2755695's picture

I've been to plenty of left wing protests; I never felt the least bit at risk and I never accomplished a thing. The only way to make a difference is by living your own life as ethically and as freely as you can. That's radical.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 22:05 | 2755729 nmewn
nmewn's picture

It is radical and they can't stand it.

They hired a "financial guy"  to look after OWS finances, who promptly moved into a pad in Mid-town so he wouldn't have to cross the bridge to his house...thats fucking

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 22:34 | 2755754's picture

Radical means to go to the root. When one speaks of going to the root it is usually the root of a problem. But the real trick is to get to the root of the solution. Self reliance and individual sovereignty is that root. There can be no progress when individuals look to an elite class for solutions and when they can conveniently put the blame for what is ultimately their own failure on that elite class.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 03:08 | 2755928 sunaJ
sunaJ's picture

You are so stuck in your opinion, aren't you?  It's not OWSer vs. TPers, it is the people vs. this sick and corrupt system - whether it is the government or the money changers.  Enough with the cheerleading your favorite team, you binary-thinking sideliners.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 08:31 | 2756062 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"You are so stuck in your opinion, aren't you?"

I have found no reason to change it.

"It's not OWSer vs. TPers, it is the people vs. this sick and corrupt system - whether it is the government or the money changers."

Actually, its a little deeper than that. TP was against taxpayer funded investment bank bailouts from the start. OWS attacked capitalism because they were told/taught that (Wall Street as it is today) is capitalism. It is demonstratedly not capitalism. Who told them that?...who taught them that? They should return to who it was and get their money back ;-)

I will now wager my ZH avatar that the vast majority of OWS supporters were for candidates who voted for "shovel ready jobs" stimulus, Cash for Clunkers, "free" health care, 100k dollar Fisker green cars, windmills, solar panels and every other ridiculous contrivance of throw shit on the economic wall government could come up with.

I won't get any takers. Because you know its true.

Now, some may not like that I speak the truth or my abrasivness in doing it in a way that forces others to look at themselves and what they stand for. I say thats tough, lifes a bitch. Life is not rainbows and puppy dogs.

They will have to deal with truth as it is, not as they may prefer it.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 09:16 | 2756103 centerline
centerline's picture

Generations have been brainwashed. Generations have been born into the "system."  Too many can't fathom anything else.  Some (many) simply don't want to.  The truth hurts.  The truth means looking in the mirror and admitting one's own ignorance, vices, etc.  The majority will actually fight tooth and nail to hold the mess together - as long as they think someone else is going to feel the pain, pay the bill... whatever.

Billboard here in Florida the other week had the whole "gay marriage and abortion rights" thing going on.  At this point, things like this leave me wanting to laugh and cry at the same time.  Better than being numb though.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:11 | 2756157 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes...generations have been brainwashed. "Its up to someone else to pay for my liberty"...its friggin depressing really.

And yet here we under a completely insolvent government spending seven million a minute...being asked to look at the latest shiny object being held up (abortion, gays, guns, fucking Snookie's baby for crying out loud) and not look at what we pay them to do.

Oh, look over there, its another shiny object!!!

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:41 | 2755802 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

"The only way to make a difference is by living your own life as ethically and as freely as you can. That's radical."

Been doing that my whole life. It doesn't usually pay that well, but I don't care.

It seems the right/left argument just had to dominate this little thread when that wasn't the point. Hey, I'm on ZH, I should know better than to expect anything else.

Anyway, it won't be either the TPers or OWSers who show up with 10,000 guns, if it ever happens. It'll be a self organized group of people who have been pushed too far and who have no more to lose and who don't give a shit about the left/right bullshit debate or what any of have to say about any of it. Meanwhile, both the TPers and OWSer will be patting themselves on the back or slaving away for today's wages while it's going down. Then they'll debate endlessly about how it would have been done better if they were in charge.

So, set me straight and call me stupid, commie, whatever is needed to dismiss me for not thinking as you do. I really don't care.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:26 | 2755831's picture

Relax. It's just the Internets. Got any gum?

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:32 | 2756377 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

Agreed! I suggest we call ourselves FTFU... FED THE FUCK UP!!

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:19 | 2755615 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

As a veteran of anti-nuclear (and other) protests from the 1970s, I went to an OWS "encampment".  In all honesty I saw many of the same loons that were a distraction when the anti-nuclear movement was in its day..  While these people mean well (i.e. they are not operatives), they dropped the brown acid we were all warned about and now they are simply an embarassment and an easy target for the media.  Camping out was an effective strategy in the 1960s.  It's a waste of time now.

As for the Tea Party, it was quickly co-opted by the Koch brothers.  But apparently the Kochs have now tired of funding the Tea Party and the Tea "Party" at the RNC was a cut rate affair according to a British columnist.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 20:34 | 2755637's picture

As a veteran of the antiwar movemnets of the 1970s and beyond I agree. As for the real Tea Party:


The Tea Party is not "an organization" as such despite the efforts of some people to co-opt the idea and infiltrate it from the top down. And it is just those people whom the media picks up on because it finds it impossible to report on the story without presenting it in a collectivist context. Neither the government nor the media has the ability to think in terms of individual actors (except as scapegoats). Each of us is invisible to them: they will never see "you" or "me," they can only see "us" as members of one special interest group or another.

And that is why the media and scavenging politicians will never truly corrupt the Tea Party. The Tea Party only exists as a vehicle for individuals to voluntarily and temporarily associate in joint objection to government action. Any Tea Party faction that espouses specific candidates or proactive policies can only degrade and deteriorate as no individual politician or socialist cause (either welfare or warfare) can sustain the real passion of the Tea Party which is incumbent on standing up and shouting "No!"

No to taxation -- no to tyranny -- no to slavery.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 21:31 | 2755701 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Very well encapsulated...and as TP, I'm willing to forgive the slanders hurled its way at its birth...we were raaazist, we were Koch suckers etc.

But I will forever cast a jaundiced eye on those who did...I can forgive but I will never forget.

Which means...think before acting or you become a pawn.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:09 | 2755889 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Sorry, we're busy working to support our families. Coordinating a large group of people would be difficult since we're given limited time off to which we mostly use for visiting family at holidays as well as some vacation time to decompress from all the work we've put in. 

The occu-tards don't really have this problem. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:10 | 2756155 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Yes, I'm sure many said the same thing in America in 1776.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 17:01 | 2756643 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Do you see an army of red headed our way? No.. let me know when that happens, ok? Until then.. life as usual. 

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:02 | 2756141 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Why would 10,000 bunch up in one easily bombed-by-remote-controlled-drone group ?


Sat, 09/01/2012 - 23:07 | 2755772 monad
monad's picture

Whichever group thinks they are doing God's will.


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 00:20 | 2755829 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture


What would scare you more, 10,000 people with signs or 10,000 people with guns?

What would scare them most, would be 10,000 people who stop using their false money.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 01:24 | 2755869 polizeros
polizeros's picture

"It is idiocy for the Black Panthers to say all power grows out of the barrel of a gun when the other side has all the guns" -- Saul Alinsky

Just saying...

And it didn't end well for the Panthers.


Sun, 09/02/2012 - 02:44 | 2755915 Dr. Sandi
Dr. Sandi's picture

To me, it just proves the Black Panthers were correct in their assessment of reality.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 10:07 | 2756146 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

The Feds owned the Panthers and took them down the armed radical path so they could be crushed. The Panthers community level help programs were very effective, so they wanted to pin a 'radical' target on them - - - and did so. (Do research - - particularly of comments by those who were in the 60s organization.)

Obviously TPTB are more afraid of ideas than guns.

Sun, 09/02/2012 - 13:37 | 2756385 rambo1028
rambo1028's picture

Exactly! Need proof? Look what the GOP did the Ron Paul and his supporters. So afraid of the idea of liberty getting out that they dropped all pretense of being for the people, by the people.

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