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Guest Post: The New York Times And Socialism

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Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

The New York Times and Socialism

In lieu of the election of Socialist President Francois Hollande and a Socialist Party collision as the majority in France’s Parliament, the New York Times recently asked “what does it mean to be a Socialist these days, anyway?”   According to The Grey Lady, socialism today is “certainly nothing radical” and simply meant the “the emancipation of the working class and its transformation into the middle class” during its heyday.  Essentially the article categorizes the contemporary socialist as one who is a rigorous defender of the welfare state.  The piece quotes French journalist Bernard-Henri Levy as saying “European socialists are essentially like American Democrats.”  It even accuses center-right political parties in the West of being quite comfortable with socialism’s accomplishments.

So is the New York Times correct?  Is socialism just a boogeyman evoked by the “fringes” to scare the public into questioning the morality and efficiency of the welfare state?

Going by the New York Times definition, socialism is just another word for social democracy.  But of course the word socialism never really referred to just welfare entitlements.  Properly defined, socialism is a society where the complete means of production and distribution of goods are solely in the hands of the state.  It is also a system defined by the absence of private property.  According to famed socialist and author Robert Heilbroner

If tradition cannot, and the market system should not, underpin the socialist order, we are left with some form of command as the necessary means for securing its continuance and adaptation. Indeed, that is what planning means…

The factories and stores and farms and shops of a socialist socioeconomic formation must be coordinated…and this coordination must entail obedience to a central plan.

If capitalism and private property are the natural state of free men, socialism is the violent overthrow of liberty.  Outlawing of private property and free enterprise is no easy task.  It requires a large amount of enforcement to see to it that nobody trades without the state’s permission.  And it is because of its oppressive nature that it is only through totalitarian dictatorship can socialism be fully realized.  Economist George Reisman explains

In sum, therefore, the requirements merely of enforcing price-control regulations is the adoption of essential features of a totalitarian state, namely, the establishment of the category of “economic crimes,” in which the peaceful pursuit of material self-interest is treated as a criminal offense, and the establishment of a totalitarian police apparatus replete with spies and informers and the power of arbitrary arrest and imprisonment.

Socialism cannot be ruled for very long except by terror. As soon as the terror is relaxed, resentment and hostility logically begin to well up against the rulers.

The New York Times paints socialism as a different picture.  The push for “democratic Marxism,” as the paper calls it, was responsible for creating a vibrant middle class with measures such as progressive taxation and a welfare safety net.  “Socialism and social democracy today are about a society with more solidarity, more protection of people, more egalitarianism” is how once-student revolt leader, now bureaucrat in the European Parliament Daniel Cohn-Bendit describes it.

No doubt these descriptions make for good political rhetoric.  State officials love nothing more than convincing the public they have brought them a standard of living beyond their wildest imagination.  Yet these claims are also completely false.  Government produces nothing; it can only redistribute using its implicit threat of violence.  Welfare transfer payments can’t be provided unless the private sector has produced wealth prior to confiscatory legislation.  Just as production must always precede consumption, government can’t rob Peter to pay Paul if Peter doesn’t first have something to steal.  No matter how hard they try, politicians can’t create a free lunch.  They can only order the citizenry around with the trigger of a gun.

This truth doesn’t fit well with the NYT’s favorable view of socialism.  The famously left-leaning newspaper never baulks at the chance to champion the newest scheme in government intervention.  Where the paper really misses the mark on actual socialism is the fact that it can’t work and is bound to fail.  True worldwide socialism will never create a worker’s paradise; just misery for all.

To proponents of incessant government control and regulation, such a statement is nonsense; even sacrilegious.  But in 1922 in his book “Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis,” Ludwig von Mises not only explained why a market economy with private property is superior to socialism, he refuted the socialist doctrine beyond anything the movement could even begin to disprove. Socialists at the time had no answer for Mises’ critique.  The same holds true for socialists today.

What was Mises’ devastating theory?  It’s actually quite simple.  Under a market economy, economic calculation is able to take place as long as there is private property and a pricing system.  Since prices act as signals between producers and consumers, they provide the basis for the rational distribution of resources.  Producers can’t fulfill the desires of consumers if they can’t calculate input costs and revenue.  Without the possibility of profit, what motive is there for producing in the first place?  Or as Hans-Herman Hoppe summarizes:

If there is no private property in land and other production factors (everything is owned by one agent), then, by definition, there can also be no market prices for them. Hence, economic calculation, i.e. the comparison, in light of current prices, of anticipated revenue, and expected cost expressed in terms of a common medium of exchange—money— (permitting cardinal accounting operations), is literally impossible. There can be no “economizing” under socialism. Socialism is instead “planned chaos.”

So precise was Mises’ theory that when the Soviet Union finally collapsed, Robert Heilbroner would go on to write in an article for the New Yorker entitled “Reflections: After Communism” that “socialism has been a great tragedy this century” and “no one expected collapse.”  After decades of denying Mises’ refutation of socialism, he was finally forced to admit “that Mises was right.”

To the working man, pure socialism only results in a state of destitution.  It is by no means the “emancipation of the working class.”  It is a system of top-down enforcement where the masses are treated as cogs in need of fine tuning.  Socialism gained traction only because leading intellectuals saw it as a possible utopia and did their best to convince the ruling establishment of its merits. “Socialism has never and nowhere been at first a working-class movement” as F.A. Hayek put it.  It has always been an economics system favored by those elitists who hoped to find themselves crowned as central planners.

The New York Times article ends by quoting Marc-Oliver Padis, editor of the academic journal Esprit, who asks “Is socialism really more than pragmatism?”  The answer is no.  Even in its moderated European form, the socialist sees the state as the answer for all of society’s questions.  He values violence over peace; compulsory over voluntary, slavery over freedom, and submission over dignity.  As long as France continues down the road to socialism, its economic future is in grave danger.  Judging by the amount of wealthy businessmen who have begun to flee France in favor of London, it would seem that people in the end generally feel entitled to the sweat of their brow.  As Mises never tired of pointing out,

A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings.

 

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Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:26 | 2615523 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

that's ok.  a socialist newspaper saves me money on TP wipes my ass just the same.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:45 | 2615549 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

A national apology is owed to Senator McCarthy for the grave injustices done to him in his lifetime.

Socialism/welfare statism/fascism killed the USA

The only hope is the rise of sovereign states

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:52 | 2615579 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I know, right? He should have been in the White House instead of Nixon.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:52 | 2615715 flacon
flacon's picture

NY Times and Paul Krugman: "A little theft, a little pinching of people's pockets is actually good and beneficial for society - and when times are tough, a lot of theft and a lot of pinching is even better, and during a depression wealth confiscaton on a grand scale is really beneficial to THE STATE whom we all serve as slaves. Without THE STATE there would be no one to serve and the economy would collapse because it is incomprehensible that people would work for themsleves and not for THE STATE."

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:20 | 2615776 Freddie
Freddie's picture

“the emancipation of the working class and its transformation into the middle class”

The middle class transformed into serfdom working like slaves for the elites, banksters and govt unionized goons and other union thugs.  Hope & Chains from the muslim.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:36 | 2616110 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Absolutely. The middle class promotes the welfare state it then has to pay for without any say so in the vast Liberal Progressive vote buying scheme. Then, when the golden goose dies, the Left looks to blame - the middle class reactionaries because they were too cheap to fund all the schemes...

 

Only now they have the power to drag a few reactionaries outside an shoot them. That's the current Stalinist/Maoist Theory which hasn't changed in 60 years.   FORWARD!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:52 | 2616340 knukles
knukles's picture

A Frenchman (supposedly intelligent) states that European Socialists and American Democrats are the same ilk.  He would also agree that the charges for YoMommaCare are taxes, as they, the French Socialists believe that higher taxes help expand the socialist state which they believe to be good for man and his economic freedom, etc., etc., etc..

That being said and accepted as Rational and Truthful by the French Socialists, the American Democrats could learn a lesson.

Quit fucking obfuscating because most folks are coming to not just have problems with the left (or right for that matter) and regardless of policy are sick and tired of the horse shit double talk, political correctness, lies and misinformation.
Quit lying.

In fact, would be best if the lefties and the righties just plain quit politics and left the world to the majority of people who'd just love to be left alone.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:51 | 2616478 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

.

 

Socialism = the economic system of the hunter-gatherer culture. It begot:

 

Fascism = the economic system of the pharaonic culture. It begot:

 

Free markets = the economic system of the freedom culture.

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:30 | 2616682 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

well don't stop there.  what do you call this misbegotten crony capitalism/debt slavery/rule of man not law we have now?  where the self regulated futures brokers apparently regularly steal the customers' money by fraud.  don't let ideology blind you to reality.

capitalism has a lot of wonderful things going for it but it is not a panacea.  as adam smith noted, no merchants meet but seek to subvert the market. "unpoliced" free markets become oligopolies and monopolies, often with the subversion of the state as a means.  essentially the only people who increased their real income during the last thirty years were the richest tenth.  what middle class?

for a sexier and more detailed version: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/07/fifty-shades-of-capitalism-pain-a...

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 02:04 | 2616920 redpill
redpill's picture

This is the kind of absurd ignorant horseshit that some alien race will find a record of in the distant future (long after we have exterminated ourselves out of sheer stupidity) that will be particularly embarrassing.

 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 20:02 | 2618834 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Freddie = always an original post.

secret Muslim, oh my. There are never enough problems that a good false claim verified by other clowns can't make better.

 you go girlz

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:38 | 2616122 agent default
agent default's picture

What is really sad is that we have reached the level where you can spew out this kind of crap with a straight face, without being at the very least ridiculed for it.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:57 | 2616347 knukles
knukles's picture

"without being at the very least ridiculed for it."

Unless of course your crap makes its way to ZeroHedge and you might just go so far as to be embarrassed..........

Look at the littlest Unicorn, Paul Krugman.
He's even given up trying in this venue.
And for God's sake that's pretty miserable to fail here when all's he's doing is spouting incomprehensible drivel.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:09 | 2616796 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

Westerners can practice future "benefits" of socialism in the comfort of their homes right now:

Poland's communist 'Monopoly' game goes global - Yahoo! News - http://is.gd/1ZxK2R

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:16 | 2616445 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

This is just Krugman's way of screaming Give me a lobotomy, quick!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:14 | 2615758 Harriet Wanger
Harriet Wanger's picture

I agree, since he died in '57.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:36 | 2615984 mkhs
mkhs's picture

Dead corpse, Alzheimer, frat boy, social organizer; what difference does it make, anyway?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:10 | 2616062 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Whenever I hear about how bad socialism is, I always say "OK then let's just give Capital everything it wants". Seems to me we tried that, and here we are.

Another perspective is refreshing. Keep an open mind:

http://www.openculture.com/2010/07/the_crisis_of_capitalism_animated.html

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:24 | 2616092 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Open mind? When someone tells me that 1+1=3, well, I don't find that "refreshing" at all.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:13 | 2616364 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

OK, OK...let's just give ALL the money to the 1%. That's the track we're on. I happen to live in a "socialist" country, Australia, and things are pretty friggin good. Minimum wage is $17.50. Unemployment is 5.2%. Health care and retirement are available to all and cheap. One quarter of mildly negative growth was the full effect so far of the crisis. 20 years ago they called this "a worker's paradise", since then esp with John Howard (who idolized the Bush Crime Family) they have retreated a bit, but overall the idea of making sure there is still some money going into the hands of WORKERS who actually SPEND IT has worked well.

I'm not arguing for Socialism or Communism or Mercantilsm or whatever. Just making a few obvious points that the current system in the US to hand 100% of the money and power to the top 1% is not panning out so good IMO.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 20:50 | 2616587 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

"I'm not arguing for Socialism or Communism or Mercantilsm or whatever"

Well then, you did a shitty job.

"Whenever I hear about how bad socialism is, I always say..."

You even provided a video.

 

"the current system in the US to hand 100% of the money and power to the top 1% is not panning out so good IMO."

Don't fall into the trap, HAL.
And don't peddle your wares in your state of unawareness.
You are dangerous, HAL, because you push terrible things as a solution to unresolved corruption.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 23:59 | 2616794 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"OK, OK...let's just give ALL the money to the 1%."

Why not, you already surrendered your last common defense to them, your gun. Where we at down there anyways, 28 days to buy one? And who is the the one percent and what does it control?

That givin up the gun thingy should be helpful...to whom is the question.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:35 | 2616115 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

Using the Marxist definition of Capitalism? I think you have "Capitalism" confused with Mercantilism.

 

But OK. I'll play your game.

 

Markets, Not Capitalism

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdrBeBwHenk

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:37 | 2616119 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Thanks for the laugh.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:51 | 2616154 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

That moronic video was posted as an article a while ago on zh I believe. 

So if human beings interact freely in commerce, bad things happen and bad people sometimes act immorally.    To counter this possibility, you want to let a small group of human beings "control"  commerce.   What ensures that they behave in a more moral fashion?   What is it about this small group of human beings that makes them less corruptable?   Is it that they have so much power?  Are they smarter, or more well educated than the rest of us?   Are they from a better gene pool?   Are they more "open minded" than the rest of us?  

Watch that video again and ask yourself at each point posted - How would handing power of all the things mentioned over to a small group of human beings be less corrupt?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:57 | 2616269 r00t61
r00t61's picture

Or as Rothbard once succinctly put it, "So, in order to prevent the concentration of power, you would create an even even larger concentration of power?"

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:14 | 2616665 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

The return on thief at the wholesale level is way better then picking a bunch of retail Muppets for their lunch money.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:44 | 2616702 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

so what, no law enforcement?  strongest rules?  

it's a balancing act.  reality and history are not simply understood.  government corruption is eternal.  so is the battle against it.  markets need regulation (of fraud, of measures, of quality, etc. etc. etc.) to function.  consumer reports and the national futures association are not enough. people producing good products and services want it to keep gresham's law from operating universally.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:09 | 2616286 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

We are here because of over two hundred years of successful free market capitalism.

We have had one problem and that is the unwillingness to use bankruptcy which is a necessity for capitalism. Change that and we are without this cronyism that has engulfed us under this administration. I don't think it's necessary to blame anyone in this current administration but you have to recognize the problem. Bring back the bankruptcy procedures for insolvent banks and fund the good ones and you'll be surprised at how fast the economy responds.

Instead too many people continue to support government spending when this has nothing to do with the problem.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 23:28 | 2616757 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

I always say "OK then let's just give Capital everything it wants". Seems to me we tried that, and here we are.

Don't confuse "capitalism" with the feudalism and plutoratic mercantilism that actively seeks to slander its reputation to further their own agenda.

True capitalism is true monetary freedom.  And money now being essentially data and information, protection of its expression and opportunity to re-produce is essential to liberty and survival of the individual.


Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:52 | 2616262 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 --

Signed into law by President John Adams in 1798, the Alien and Sedition Acts consisted of four laws passed by the Federalist-controlled Congress as America prepared for war with France. These acts increased the residency requirement for American citizenship from five to fourteen years, authorized the president to imprison or deport aliens considered "dangerous to the peace and safety of the United States" and restricted speech critical of the government. These laws were designed to silence and weaken the Democratic-Republican Party. Negative reaction to the Alien and Sedition Acts helped contribute to the Democratic-Republican victory in the 1800 elections. Congress repealed the Naturalization Act in 1802, while the other acts were allowed to expire.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:18 | 2616375 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Those people that advocate for socialism have generated over 120 million deaths through either starvation or murder, and probably a lot more, trying to reach their "Utopia". Nixon can not even cause a blip on that radar. Get real, dude.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:04 | 2616429 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

There should be no White House.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:09 | 2615626 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

and it's been a smashing success in Europe

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:12 | 2615749 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Actually..... Social Democracy was a success. Until the citizens dozed off and politicians started "privatising" everything (giving it to their buddies).

But everyone's jumping on the bandwagon here. It's oh so popular to destroy the very mechanisms that were put in place after centuries of fighting, just because ppl. do not understand the meaning of the word SOCIALISM. It can't be put in place for a longer time but with terror? Hello? Are you insane? Of course the State means violence. What would you expect? The issue is that there's fair representation. Democracy isn't flawless, but it's the best thing out there ATM. France's socialism is a peculiar sort, it's very nationalistic. And not "pure" socialism at all.

THIS CRISIS HAS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH SOCIALISM !!!!!!!!!! It's about CORRUPTION AND MACCHIVELLIAN PLANS TO CONQUER THE WORLD. This crisis is ARTIFICIAL.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:22 | 2615785 Freddie
Freddie's picture

They let third world invaders flood in as cheap labor.  That failed when the invaders jumped on the welfare bandwagon.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:31 | 2615809 tmosley
tmosley's picture

And how long did that take?  12 seconds, or 13?

Always blame the other guy, socialist scum.  Given any chance, you will even blame the 100 years absent capitalists for your troubles.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:41 | 2617125 Reptil
Reptil's picture

"blame the other guy"

What the fuck are you babbling about? It's obvious this crisis is not caused by socialist measures in democratic countries of western europe.

Look at balance sheets pre and after 2008. You'll see that the citizens ponied up the cash for their own welfare you sorry excuse for a turd.

Go stick your Thatcherisms somewhere where the sun doesn't shine you ignorant fool, they're 30+ years late. No where did I say I was anti-capitalist.

The people in Europe, my family, myself WE built up the welfare state. WE contributed willingly part of our paycheck, profits, WE have every right to USE a WORKING system.

SO FUCK OFF IT IS OURS, NOT THE BANKS, NOT THE SPECULATORS, NOT THE POLITICIANS, IT IS OUR LAND, OUR SYSTEM, OUR WEALTH.

WATCH THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVjXl9SOgBA

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:02 | 2615893 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Socialist states all end the same no matter the nuances. Broke.

Does anyone find the article in the NY Times out of place. I don't. This is how you defend Obama and his failures to improve the economy. Broadening the discussion to allow the Marxist all the cover he needs to show what an incapable leader he truly is. This allows all the liberals to claim how a vote for Obama is a vote for the common good and all that bs. Would this article have been written four years ago? The answer for you liberals is hell no because he could never have gotten elected then. But it makes sense now because Obama being the narcissist that he is thinks he can can run now and get your vote by the manner in which all socialist do and thats by class warfare and accompanying handouts to the perceived disadvantaged. Hugo Chavez did this to Venezuela.

Obama will not even have to mask his radical agenda anymore and Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals), George Soros (globalist), Van Jones, Valarie Jarret, and the weather undergrounds Bill Ayers have their guy in the white house and they are deciding the future of the democratic party and this country.

There is a difference between red and blue  ...

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:27 | 2616100 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Watch out for the "Now youse can't leave" moment.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2012/07/argentina-now-you-cant-leave.html

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:21 | 2616327 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

In a sea of clueless anti-Socialist rants in here, yours stands out. As moronic.

You must have been sleeping when the crash hit in 2008. Your capitalist model economy collapsed, and we, the Brits and the Japanese are all reduced to beggar status, going around the world to Commie and Socialist countries, hat in hand, looking for loans.

The Commies and Socialists have all the money, and the biggest capitalists are insolvent but for printing Monopoly money.

Hey, on principle, how many of you plan on refusing your Medicare and Social Security benefits? And don't say you paid for them. You paid forward, and younger people will pay your benefits. Pure Socialism, right?

From those who can to those who need? I'm betting you'll all be right there in line on Day 1.

Being gullible is not a virtue. Some highly paid propagandists for the ultra rich sell you on this stuff, along with abortion, gay marriage and immigration to get you all fired up to vote for the people who keep robbing you blind. And you do!

And again, first in line to go along! Solid. Yes, there's a difference between red and blue. Liberals are more educated, proven fact. Republicans get virtually 100% of the Redneck vote, with or without GED's, and you too. You belong together.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:49 | 2616709 Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

Perfectly stated. Next time you're in a bookstore, look for "Pity the Billionaire," by Thomas Frank. You'll love it.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:22 | 2616826 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The Commies and Socialists have all the money, and the biggest capitalists are insolvent but for printing Monopoly money."

ROTFL!!!...they do?

Where do they get it from? Does it appear from the sky like manna from heaven? Well, that can't be right because "real communists" don't believe in God or heaven do they? So its not divine intervention. Well, lets see then...it must come from the state.

Then where does the state get it from then? Well now, they either confiscate it from the productive through taxation or print it don't they?

So, what is it really then...communist and socialist states tax heavilly on their populations or they counterfeit their own currencies?

Choice is an over used word that winds up in the same place often times doesn't it? Only a free man understands it completely.

Good luck slave.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:00 | 2617083 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

This nonsense you people are arguing about right and wrong as if one system is any better than the other. Capitalism gave the west the freedom to buy better rope to hang itself and a more efficent market to sell its children into slavery. The free market countries never taxed as much as the commuists and Socialists because they took out debt in our granchildrens names and then persuaded us to take out even more debt in our name. Free market buisnesses have and continue to start wars across the world. British East India Company,Energy industry in the ME, Fruit Companies in Latin America. Freedom gives idiots the power to destroy their and sociteys future. You talk about freedom and property like its a virtue and you'll defend it as a principal. But i'll tell you this sir if theres ever a famine and your family have to eat ill expect you to uphold my decision to wait for the last possible moment of your peoples starvation and then take you to the cleaners for all your property. Free Market sir your daughters are free to whore themselves to old men to pay for your retirement. If it comes to it I expect you to be comfortable with this situation as healthy reflection of economic freedom.

You make this massive mistake that so so many middle class westerners do. Make out that human nature in the absence of tyranny is good and just. We aren't fucked because we're Socialists or Capitalists were fucked because were human beings.

Kind Regards

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 10:54 | 2617200 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Freedom gives idiots the power to destroy their and sociteys future."

So by your logic no freedom is the way to go then? Better to live like a dog begging at the table, waiting for the master to throw a scrap over his shoulder...is that about it? 

"You talk about freedom and property like its a virtue and you'll defend it as a principal."

I do, damned straight.

"But i'll tell you this sir if theres ever a famine and your family have to eat ill expect you to uphold my decision to wait for the last possible moment of your peoples starvation and then take you to the cleaners for all your property."

That would be in your society.

You see, I have the freedom AND property to grow a garden and hunt. I don't need to go to a grocery store or rely on a strangers generosity or daddy.gov. If those strangers (you, I would suppose) show up at my house to confiscate my property by force some of them may get it in the end but they can never take my freedom, only my life.

And I can guarantee you that eugenicist thinkers like you will be dramatically thinned out for your trouble...thus, my contribution to society and the gene pool.

You're welcome in advance my fellow societal travelers ;-)

"Free Market sir your daughters are free to whore themselves to old men to pay for your retirement. If it comes to it I expect you to be comfortable with this situation as healthy reflection of economic freedom."

Your better arrangement is whoring all children and future generations chances for any prosperity and freedom at all...by the endless servitude and debt to a socialist utopian state which has and never will exist?

"You make this massive mistake that so so many middle class westerners do. >>>Make out that human nature in the absence of tyranny is good and just.<<< We aren't fucked because we're Socialists or Capitalists were fucked because were human beings.

And you brainwashed SOB's must be smokin crack.

The absence of tyranny is just and dignified.

Human nature has always sought freedom, not tyranny and domination. If you desire to be dominated and have despots tell you where to go, what to eat, when to eat, what to think and say there are many places for you to go.

But it sounds like you already live in one.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 13:53 | 2617775 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Your talking about some fantasy world brother. You want to go grow a garden raise sheep and hunt be my guest.Most people can't.Most people Won't. Most people are living in urban enviroments. Its crowded its busy its highly productive. No fucking hunting goes on unless your police,.

Why don't you try and do a Deurbanization campaign to build your new socitey.  They tried it in Cambodia.......

 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 19:15 | 2618757 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

So why is it the only places where Europeans are thriving are Socialist. Scandanavia and Australia are looking pretty good. Shit went tits up for the Eastern Europeans after they lost their socialism. Ended up cleaning toilets in the West of Europe after they ended the great social experiemnt and brought in much needed free market economics.

On the Latino front Chavez is facing hyper inflation. He says its the Americans screwing up his carefully planned economy. He keeps trying to nationalize foreign shit. Gave the idea to the Argentinians.People keep calling it financial terrorism but when they did it in Wall Street, nationalized their losses i mean, it was called a crisis we had to bail those motherfuckers out.

Its not the worst thing that ever happened in Latin America you know. Socialism all that. I heard a story they were forcing back street abortions on the Indians women folk. Paying them off to get sterilized. That was all Free market though so your partisan troll ass would never have heard about any of that.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:38 | 2616466 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

How in the Fuck,

did so many socialists end up on ZH?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 19:37 | 2616514 Ms. Erable
Ms. Erable's picture

Eurotrash invasion.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:25 | 2616828 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Good question.

Maybe they think theres profit to be had on anothers labor ;-)

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:02 | 2617085 Central Bankster
Central Bankster's picture

When socialism fails, they are always trying to blame the capitalists... so the socialists destroyed capitalism about 100 years ago and they can't figure out how the system went bankrupt.  Shocking... really...

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:32 | 2617109 dander53
dander53's picture

So... just to be clear... in your view a "socialist" is anyone who states a critique of so-called free markets that you cannot counter ?

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:52 | 2617131 Reptil
Reptil's picture

You don't even know what the word means. And no, I'm not a "socialist".

My people, my family, me myself we PAID into a collective system. WE SET IT UP. WE PLANNED IT. WE MADE SURE THERE WAS FREEDOM TO DO BUSINESS, BY MAKING THE SYSTEM CHEAP AND EFFICIENT. NO they were not "socialists" they were liberals, which has A TOTALLY DIFFERENT MEANING THAN WHAT YOU'VE BEEN TOLD. Then psychopaths and greedy fools came and plundered our systems under the pretence of a "free market". What they did is to put the collective cash into bankrupt casino gambling ("Investments"). Now there's nothing and they've told you it's "socialism". And that "Austerity" will somehow give us that cash back (extend and pretend it's still there), by chucking out the weakest of our society.

So you won't have any ethical argument when they finally COME FOR YOU.

And a LOT of you buy it, Hook, Line and Sinker. 0__0

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:21 | 2615659 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

 

 

A national apology is owed to Senator McCarthy for the grave injustices done to him in his lifetime.

 

McCarthy made up accusations on the fly and attacked the innocent in a bid for personal power. He was an enemy of freedom and capitalism.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:07 | 2615740 skipjack
skipjack's picture

Like many, you are totally, deliberately misinformed.  What you are referring to are the proceedings of the House of Representatives' UnAmerican Committee.  McCarty was not part of that at all, being a Senator.  He brought specific charges against specific preople, most all of which were validated in 1995 by the release of the Venona papers.

 

Get educated, or suffer under indoctrination.  Your overlords would like you to remain ignorant; don't.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:29 | 2615966 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Actually I was referring to the Wheeling speech and the supposed list of infiltrators in the state department. It was a complete fabrication. But you keep on believing that out of control politicians like Senator McCarthy tell lies and ruin lives in an effort to protect you. People like you get what they deserve. Unfortunately your support for big government control puts those of us who are rational and productive at risk as well.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:38 | 2616124 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

How the fuck do you KNOW that it was a "complete fabrication"? Because McCarthy was right about everyone else he accused. Consequently it stands to reason he was right about the others as well, and we just haven't discovered the proof yet.

The Cultural Marxists have done their job well over the last 60 years. Idiots like you are the proof.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:00 | 2616160 CrockettAlmanac.com
CrockettAlmanac.com's picture

Many of McCarthy's fellow Republicans in the Senate certainly did not see him as being infallible.  They voted to censure him. As Republican Senator Ralph Flanders said, "Were the Junior Senator from Wisconsin in the pay of the Communists he could not have done a better job for them."

That's your hero. Why do you hate America?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:47 | 2616331 Bob
Bob's picture

+1  You're onna roll. 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:57 | 2616336 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

that's because they knew he was about to expose some of them

why is the defense dept chock full of chinese and obama's cabinet ladened with foreigners

think of henry kissinger,  zbigniew brzezinski, and madeleine albright, etc.,etc., 

and when your really dangerous [truthsayer richard holbrooke?] you find yourself going to a military hospital and coming out in a body bag

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:03 | 2616358 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

Impressive! You just blew right past stupid doing 90 on the way to utterly hopeless idiocy! Defending McCarthy? You're gunning fo the dumb ass hall of fame.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 20:18 | 2616550 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Flush out your headgear, new guy.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:30 | 2615673 psychobilly
psychobilly's picture

"A national apology is owed to Senator McCarthy for the grave injustices done to him in his lifetime.

"Socialism/welfare statism/fascism killed the USA"

McCarthy was a fascist you moronic troll.  He was also a closet freak and alcoholic just like his buddy Hoover.  What is it with you boot-lickers and your degenerate, skirt-wearing government heroes?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:30 | 2615684 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

freaks and alchies are tolerable

asset grabbing, power hungry mooches are not.

back to your drum, monkey

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:42 | 2615706 Rusticus
Rusticus's picture

The definition of fascism:

"A record 43.6 million Americans are using food stamps. JPMorgan’s segment that makes food stamp debit cards made $5.47 billion in net revenue in 2010."

 


Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:52 | 2615725 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

and Jamie got a pair of cufflinks

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:14 | 2615756 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

what did the New York Times get out of the deal tho?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:21 | 2615778 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

A 4.5% decline in total readership on weekdays, and 1.1% on Sundays?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:41 | 2616134 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

The trance is wearing off, as Pravda on the Potomac and Pravda on the Hudson gradually go bankrupt.

Look for Cultural Marxist institutions like the Ford Foundation to step in any moment now to "save the day".

Henry Ford must be spinning in his grave.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:22 | 2616379 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Um, yeah, and Henry Ford understood one thing: he had to pay his workers a decent wage, because he knew they were his CUSTOMERS TOO. Seems to me the two groups earning a decent reliable wage in the US are bankers and politicians. Not what Ford had in mind. Look up the stats: since 2010, 93% of ALL INCOME GAINED has gone to less than 1% of the population. Doesn't sound like a recipe for a healthy economy to me.

Every society has a balance between the share of income that goes to Capital and to Labor.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 20:20 | 2616555 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Well, you've proved you don't know the first fucking thing about the Ford Foundation.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:40 | 2616858 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Or the Carnigie Foundation or the Rockefellers or the Anneburgs or every other pioneer/inventor/capitalist whoever left a fucking dime to charity.

The parasites will find it and sit down on it and feast while proclaiming with fervent idealism that the host that feeds them was completely wrong.

(Asshats & cocktails can be found on the poop deck)

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:16 | 2615763 Piranhanoia
Piranhanoia's picture

You don't get that you are a fascist do you?   You have been told by others, but just can't believe it.  Does your family think you need help?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:05 | 2616053 midtowng
midtowng's picture

Wow! Defense of McCarthy and lots of agreement. What's next on Zerohedge? Holocaust denial?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:43 | 2616141 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

No, how about, who gives a fuck about the Holocaust? Stalin killed three times as many Ukrainians, but nobody seems to give a shit about that.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:48 | 2616333 Bob
Bob's picture

That was a joke, right?  Funny!

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:46 | 2616863 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, that was hysterical Bob.

Lemme turn on my human skin lamp shade over here so I can get a closer look at you.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 10:55 | 2617217 Bob
Bob's picture

The jokes are getting too deep and dark for me now. 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 11:10 | 2617243 nmewn
Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:12 | 2616363 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Believe it or not, Holocaust denial is one of the few things not tolerated by the management here...

I once sparred with denier and Tyler cleaned up the mess (heavily edited thread)  and I have not seen or heard of the asshole since then...

As I have said, go ahead and be a bigot and demonstrate your low brow intellect but being a denier makes you all but complicit in the crimes of the Nazis....

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:50 | 2616871 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, at least theres one thing we agree on.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 18:38 | 2618663 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Usually wouldn't find that a point of merit. History gets rewritten all the time. I remember Blair saying there were mass graves containing 200,000 bodies in Kurdistan. They never found them.We all just forgot about it afterwards. About the same number died over the next 10 years due to the coalition. One massive crime was effectively made up to condone and conceal a REAL crime of equal stature. Saddam did this, Saddam did that, so we killed him and 200,000 people. Worst part is even if he killed all those people the CIA effectively covered for Saddam. The CIA blamed the Iranians for gassing the Kurds during the Anfal.

 

I got no qualms with the deniers. What irritates me about them is they are mostly White Nationalist types who will happily rewrite history for their own interests. You've got enough weirdos here as it it without StormFront.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 01:27 | 2616902 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Where have you been, in a cave?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:15 | 2615641 Sofa King
Sofa King's picture

Yeah, but it leaves ink streaks on your ass.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:46 | 2615717 Rusticus
Rusticus's picture

Not if you use the online edition.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:42 | 2615838 Monedas
Monedas's picture

The French Socialists are just like American Democrats ....  faint praise !

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 07:55 | 2617050 kita27
kita27's picture

Very few people want true Socialism. Very few people want pure Capitalism. The answer is a healthy mixture of the two. Redistribution allows a broad sector of the population have the means to purchase the goods of the capitalists. 

The central planners have always had a place in a capitalist economy. This is why it is known as a 'political economy' and not wild west capitalism.

Think of the disorder in society that pure capitalism would generate.

Think of the opression that a pure socialist state would generate. 

Human societies are not linear, as development advances and retreats along an ever progressing line into the future there are times when more capitalism is needed, and times when more socialism is needed. 

Prior to the World Wars Capitalism allowed wealth creation. After the World Wars Socialism allowed countries to rebuild, and to use public funds to invest in electricity grids, water works, dams, ports, and many other public utilities that private capitalists wouldnt touch with a 10ft pole.

Now the investments had been made with public money, we started privatising everything and socialism retreated as capitalism advanced under the neo liberal ideology. Governments know they cant compete against the private sector for efficiency when it comes to running a business.     

Unfortunatley, neo liberalism has got us into trouble, the retreat from socialism went too far, important societal protective mechanisms were thrown out (Glass- Steagal), regulatory bodies did not do their jobs, the politicians cosied up to their corporate sponsors. We now have a crisis,  socialism is now once again needed to correct the errors of capitalism. 

The question is, how should this socialism be delivered? Socialism that protects the bankers, while it may help society in the short term, is replete with moral hazard and future collapse of the economy is a mathematical certainty. 

Socialism that lets the ecomomy fall back to sustainability, while implementing new protective measures is a much better option. It wouldnt hurt to jail a few bankers also!

The question folks is not one of Socialism versus Capitalism, but how much of each, and how each is applied to society.

 

Andy

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 18:10 | 2618561 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

I second that.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:29 | 2615525 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

What is the "New York Times"?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:35 | 2615530 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

A waste.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:45 | 2615551 Stackers
Stackers's picture

I dont know if its a complete waste. You can make pirate hats and boats with it, works great for soaking up puppy urin or packing boxes. All kinds of stuff.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:48 | 2616150 Buckaroo Banzai
Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:46 | 2615553 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

 

 

A socialist rag for the war mongers:

The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War
Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:50 | 2615572 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

 

 

Polly doesn't want a Krugman?

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:53 | 2615584 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Polly wants target practice ;-)

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:28 | 2615680 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

 

 

Oooh, I have an idea, take the head shots of the NYT water carriers, place them all on one standard bird cage sized sheet.

..

 

Profit!

 

no?

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:35 | 2615818 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes!!!

Eyeballs are worth fiddy points!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:57 | 2615598 Republi-Ken
Republi-Ken's picture

ABSOLUTLEY...its a 100% hyperbolic scare tactic by The Top 1%

who dont want to pay the taxes of Socialism.

It's the taxes, not the good programs .

Hey, all you free market lovers, the fucking NFL and NBA are SOCIALISM

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:18 | 2615649 aerojet
aerojet's picture

If we were taking the excess and helping uplift the less fortunate that would be one thing.  If those we helped even benefited from it in some way (and by that I mean, would somehow lift themelvs out of poverty and become productive people), other than continuing to maintain their wrteched existences, that would be one thing.  But what we have going on is full-on wealth transfer from the productive people to the unproductive people and all it does is breed more unproductive people!  It's quite obviously choking the life out of our culture and *that's* why I'm against it.  I'm so far past all this left/right bs, "you're a socialist" "you're a capitalist" nonsense.  I want to help people, but I also want to see that the help given is accepted responsibly, otherwise I'm just a chump.  And speaking of welfare, the big banks are now the world's greatest welfare recipients with no reforms in sight!

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 01:34 | 2616905 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

What planet are you on?  The only wealth transfer that has been going on for the last 30 years has been to the richest 1%.  You know, the "productive people" like Jamie Dimon & Lloyd Blankfein. Who's getting more help, the single mom with three kids, or Duetchbank?  Get a fucking reality check as to who are the real welfare queens, and wean yourself off of the tea party kool aid.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:03 | 2615736 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

"Socialism" would take care of the little guy and be self sustaining.

Where, exactly, does anything remotely resembling that exist on planet Earth?

Back to the reality outside the Big Finance Capital false narrative bubble:

"Socialism" in the field consolidates wealth in order for the crony insiders to seize control of it and then literally wage war against the population at large.

Got National Socialist German Wrokers' party?

We have to wise up here - fools get enslaved.

Searth "Trivium education" to learn how to intellectually defend yourself.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:29 | 2615805 Gadfly
Gadfly's picture

So are insurance companies.  So is our national defense.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:36 | 2615983 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Socialism is not considered a bad thing even in the US, especially if banks are benefiting. Get real people, the BANKING BAILOUT was 100% FUCKING SOCIALISM. 2008 was the fall of mankind for American capitalism. Get over it.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:15 | 2616073 XF
XF's picture

What good programs?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:58 | 2615599 LedMizer
LedMizer's picture

I read the WSJ and the NYT every day.

Two versions of the same story - each with the self identified belief they are delivering the gospel truth - BOTH COMPLETELY FULL OF SHIT.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:47 | 2615633 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

 

 

Socialism: Other people's money freely given 2 others that haven't earned it 2 keep them from rioting.

Aka, communism, facism, taxation without representation, & politically facile vote-getting multiple term-ensuring douchebaggery whereby the politician, family, and chronies, become enriched over said terms in perpetuity.   Can easily facilitate out of control spending as voter-base increases exponentially.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:40 | 2615835 Freddie
Freddie's picture

You are an idiot if you think the WSJ is a conservative or libertarian paper.  It is a joke like the NY Times and they are very close in their ideology.   IDB or UK Telegraph are decent papers.  The rest of the newspapers are total shit and propaganda.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:10 | 2616195 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

The pabulum on which the New England/East Coast Liberal Establishment is fed. It is the main component of most New Yorkers' intellectual (LOL) diet.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:34 | 2615527 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Socialism is communism is fascism is MASS MURDER. Not just sometimes, but every single time.

 http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM

It's called "democide," being murdered by your own government. It's the number one cause of death on planet Earth. The best remedy ever invented was the idea of a constitutional republic, with clear boundaries on governmental power.

They are working overtime to destroy it.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:48 | 2615563 Yes_Questions
Yes_Questions's picture

 

 

They have us doing for them at this point.

 

+1

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:37 | 2615702 Tom Green Swedish
Tom Green Swedish's picture

Communism and Socialism have killed more than plagues, wars, flus, and holocausts.  It is no laughing matter.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:12 | 2616291 agent default
agent default's picture

And yet it is acceptable to be a Communist/Marxist/Maoist you name it. 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:20 | 2615653 aerojet
aerojet's picture

I'm with you on that one!  Like I said, I like giving a helping hand, but what we have is ridiculous.  I'm not sure it always leads to mass murder, but whatever.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:39 | 2615830 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Please mr. Seize Mars. I know you mean well. But you got your "labels" all wrong.

This "discussion" pops up now and again on ZH.

Corporatism, in the modern form of "Inverted Totalitairian State" (read: Sheldon Wolin, Chris Hedges) has taken over the Constitutional Republic of the USA. It has N.O.T.H.I.N.G. to do with "socialism", zip, nil, squat, nada, niente, niks.........

THE TRAP that's being set is that "the welfare state" is being done away with, because people do not understand that there can be a responsible form of government, that there can be a safety net in a society without it going bankrupt. The Obama Administration has PRETENDED it's socialist in nature. It's not. It's purely fascist and has had the goal of transferring power to the "fasces" the large corporations. The same is happening here in Europe. There's holes in national budgets everywhere now, because the complicit criminal politicians have given all the money to INSOLVENT financial institutions. And now they turn around and say to the population; see, it's your fault, because you've been suckling on the government's teet so long. Which is total lies, since the crisis in the late seventies, governments that now are supposed to be "socialist" have cut back on the "welfare state". They've proven they CAN run balanced budgets, and stil provide the weak, the helpless in society, a safety net. Totally opposite from that: Obama's Obamacare means a total surrender of the citizen's healthcare into the hands of the tandem Insurance company/big pharma. Those corporations are since court rulings in the late seventies EQUAL TO A PERSON. However they are very different from persons, since they have a PROFIT motivation, and their controllers (people) resitst ACCOUNTABILLITY. It's very, very remote from anything that was and still is in place in the Netherlands, Sweden, Germany etc. It has NO simularities with these functioning, efficient healthcare systems. But you guys wouldn't know, because you've been fed the line that Obama's a "socialist" and that France's Ollande is a socialist, so those two Must be the same, right?

wrong.

THE WHOLE "SOCIALISM" DISCUSSION IS BOGUS. IT'S FASCISM THAT'S CAPTURED OUR WESTERN WORLD.
As the "inverterted totalitarian state" has served it's purpose, the brown and black shirts come out of the closet, and it's oldschool nazi time again.

And the americans will be divided and helpless, just because of squabbling over these issues. :-S

YES the Contstitution is VERY important. It guarantees freedom for every individual citizen.

The crisis has been treated as a "LiQUIDITY" crisis, which it is not. And these politicians will continue to do so until all of us are either bankrupt or dead.
WAKE UP FOLKS? PLEASE do not play into their hands, by confusing the issues?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:54 | 2615878 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

+1.  I'm starting to think this is pointless, though.  Looks to me like the lines are already drawn in the US.  In one corner, there's a pack of Nazi-wannabes who have somehow convinced themselves that they're the good guys.

This has happened before.  Stay alert.  There's potential for things to change very quickly.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:34 | 2616060 Bob
Bob's picture

They are the good guys--they're the very voice of Liberty.  It now has proper branding.  A real mind-bender, that; I never expected Liberty to develop such a highly motivated sales force.  But then, I don't even know the special language or practice the mental discipline of Liberty like they do. Not even close. 

That's how it is with weak-minded fools like me, though. 

Scary shit, alright.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:42 | 2616472 monad
monad's picture

Think it through. We have always had nazi wannabes, but they only recruited the dumbest incompetents. They are just decoys for the real bastards, the ones who always hide behind others. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukFAvYP3UU

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:06 | 2615909 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Getting us to argue about "labels" is the work of our Criminal Elite.

While we debate whether it is Socialism, Fascism or Communism the Tyrants pick our pockets clean.

Think Criminal Elite, Lying Media, and Government Collusion and you might have a chance of survival. 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:29 | 2616105 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

While we debate whether it is Socialism, Fascism or Communism the Tyrants pick our pockets clean.

___________________

Expect 'Americans' to debate anything and everything but 'Americanism'

It is going to be everything but 'Americanism'

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:47 | 2616253 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Don't forget Chinese-(Citizen)-ism, been going on there for like 3000 years

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 21:59 | 2616648 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Gotta love that 3 clueless morons have proven your point for you.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 21:27 | 2616616 GeorgeHayduke
GeorgeHayduke's picture

Cool. Someone on here who actually gets it instead of hopping on the "I hate Socialists (or Communists)" bandwagon of cluelessness.

+1

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:19 | 2615939 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Fascism & socialism are kissing cousins.

In fascism you ostensibly have private property, but the market is completely regulated - wages, prices, whom you can hire, you name it. The 'owners' have been essentially reduced to middle management for the State.

In socialism the State does away with the pretense of people owning companies and just owns them outright.

In both you essentially have a bureacratic, oligarchic mulch controlling everying and strangling price discovery.

Collectivism may come in slightly different flavours but it still has the same end result - economic ruin.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:30 | 2616109 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The only sustainable solution? US citizenism.

Oh, wait, US citizenism is what is running the world.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:02 | 2616424 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Yeah, but we learnt it from the Chinese, CitizenBot.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:47 | 2616476 monad
monad's picture

Left jackboot, Right jackboot. 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:19 | 2617094 Reptil
Reptil's picture

TOTAL GIBBERISH NONSENSE. o__o

 

GOD, FUCKING HELP ME, PEOPLE, I LOVE YOUR DEFIANCE, BUT PICK UP A BOOK ONCE IN A WHILE OK? YOU'LL BE PLAYED LIKE OLD PIANOS, BY THOSE YOU THINK YOU FIGHT.

Easy malleable tools you are, putty in the hands of skilled manipulators.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:28 | 2616101 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

THE WHOLE "SOCIALISM" DISCUSSION IS BOGUS. IT'S FASCISM THAT'S CAPTURED OUR WESTERN WORLD.
____________________

No, that is 'Americanism' that has captured the western world. The western world is under the'American' banner.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:21 | 2616452 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Aw, ain't it the truth?

Oh yeah, that word no longer exists in Chinaaaa:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/9394684/The-truth-d...

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:31 | 2617107 Reptil
Reptil's picture

No, the controlling elite is international. They're SUPRA national.

All countries have signed away a HUGE chunk of self determination to the WHO in 2006. The Bilderberg meetings is where all the policticans recieve marching orders. SUPRA national.

The USA is a country with many cool, stubborn, surprising people. It is also a country of which it's population has been reprogrammed, and who have very, very little knowledge about what happened in the past, outside their borders. Especially history before WW2 is shrouded and hidden.

Rewrite history when no one is looking. This will be come new history. (The BBC archives on 9-11 have DISAPPEARED. NASA moonlandings have DISAPPEARED. etc. etc.)

Whole generations will grow up with half truths or lies. This is where the Fascists take a page in the playbook of the Bolshewiks. Same forms of manipulation. Control the youth, control the future.

Then put different groups within society against each other, on fabricated ideas. (that there's such a thing as "socialsim" in the USA, it's ridiculous, laughable, if it weren't so fucking intensely sad. :-(

Divide and conquer.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:35 | 2615529 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

"The goal of socialism is communism"
~Vladimir Lenin~

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:39 | 2615538 Cast Iron Skillet
Cast Iron Skillet's picture

that's double-plus-good!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:56 | 2615592 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"A pregnant socialist always gives birth to a bouncing baby communist" - nmewn

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:20 | 2615655 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Socialist: an extremely generous person.... with other people's money.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:20 | 2616674 nmewn
nmewn's picture

After taking their cut of other peoples money of course...lol.

I'm always fascinated with a socialists view of how money is earned, who earns it and why & how they should be the sole ones to dictate the apportionment of it after taxes.

Its like the individual looking for work to better themselves and their family never even happened, the hiring of the individual never happened, the labor (the sweat & hours involved) of the individual to earn it never happened...only after it appears in someone elses pocket (as if from the ether...lol) and some of it removed by the state does the socialist become keenly aware of it & is very, very interested in it.

When I "worked outside" in my youth, I would always tell my younger apprentices, I don't see anyone digging this hole but you and me. Whatever you decide to give someone watching you dig this hole is up to you. Myself, I always give the shade tree onlookers the finger.

That is my core value...charity is not force or coercion and both are always the first steps towards tyranny.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:25 | 2615791 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

"When are you idiots gonna bury me?"

  ~Vladimir Ilyich Lenin ~

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:43 | 2616137 Bob
Bob's picture

Even Soviet Communism can be funny--and that's funny!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:45 | 2615847 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Lenin and his Bolshewik buddies KILLED all the "Mensjewiki". This statement he said to pacify his opponents.
Lenin was like a CIA guy, like a shrewd strategist. ANYTHING he said, you have to put into context.. and then, still.... it's not certain.

LENINISM IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM COMMUNISM. One could say that Lenin (who was transferred by the germans, and also recieved money from WESTERN BANKS) prevented communism.

No where, ever on this planet has there been pure Communism.

The reason I'm typing this is because I think that you guys mean well, and have the same goal as I do: FREEDOM.

But you're fooled.

It's NOT communism, it's not even socialism. It's FASCISM that is rearing it's ugly head.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:11 | 2616362 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

and who counts the votes -- why, its and electronic eye called diebold -- and who ownes diebold -- why the tree hugging greenies that hate a paper ballot for obvious reasons -- and what are greenies -- why hitler's green party -- now go back to picking your nose?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:36 | 2615531 denny69
denny69's picture

Anything which may even vaguely threaten the banks, the government and Wall Street from looting our remaining wealth will be called socialism. Americans have been well trained now to recoil in fear whenever they hear the word socialism. Meanwhile, back in working America, our wealth is disappearing faster than snot and when I look over my shoulder at the things I once had, they're growing smaller as the broker's Maserati peels off into the sunset. Corzine, Dimon and Diamond anyone? There is no acceptable definition of socialism anymore. The Wall Streeters bought it with our money.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:29 | 2615681 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

Yes, when govt is in bed with big business, in your example; banks, the rest of us pay for it.  Their (your?) solution is to get the govt even More involved!     Does that make any sense?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:42 | 2615837 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Hey!...I gotta idea!...lets get government involved in financing solar panel companies, health insurance companies an an an...oh, wait a minute ;-)

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:47 | 2615850 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Well.... they fucked that up. I think on purpose.
Because it can work.

 

They just want all of you to think that socialism is another word for crony-capitalism/corruption. And you're all falling for the trick.
And no...it's not "real" capitalism, since there's no risk involved.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:47 | 2616018 denny69
denny69's picture

I understand; yet I didn't advocate socialism. I simply mentioned it in reference to systems that cannot be defined as they were once. To extend my explanation: Today's capitalism cannot be defined in the same manner as it was thirty years ago. It's changed and obviously for the worse. It's now run by crooks and has turned into a very destructive system. More destructive than constructive. Where's the money for ventures, new businesses? In the pockets of those at Morgan and elsewhere, but not out on the market where it can be utilized to our advantage and ultimately, profit.

I ask you this, those who've labeled me a socialist sympathizer, what's the solution for today's brand of capitalism? It's probably not socialism; but what's your solution to our capitalist way being co-opted by government, Wall Street and mega-nationals to the point where it's ruined small businesses, destroyed savings and thrown hard working folks out of their homes. Can it be changed back to a better working system by individuals or a collective effort by millions of people? How does one, exactly, bring it back to a functioning system? I know one thing: Sitting at the keyboard is only a very small part of the solution.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:14 | 2616199 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

The only time I fear corporations is when they are directly involved with govt/politicians.   With limited govt the politicians would not be able to supply corporations with govt handouts.  

Corporations don't have cops or armies.  Corporations don't have the power to tax.  Corporations can't throw me in jail.   corporations can't make me by anything. 

Look at the top corporations (the Dow companies) in the year 1900( yes, the robber barron days).   Only one or two are still in existance.  

Corporations can(and do) go out of business.

Government does not.  It only gets bigger and more powerful.

Who do you fear more?

Free markets are the answer.  A return to the United States Constitution is the answer.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:26 | 2616309 Bob
Bob's picture

One or the other, eh?  Submit to either evil totalitarian goobermint or embrace idealistic domination by coporate transnationals?

And on the Authority of The Constitution we're limited to the latter.

Yours Truly,

The Constitution

Seriously?  There's nothing like the Constitution to fluff up nothing. 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:37 | 2617120 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Right on. If no one even bothers reading the Constitution, it's not going to save anything. It's the willingness of people to fight.

Once ppl. will be faced with the "fight or flee" reflex, they'll be cornered.

Buy gold. Hide it. Stay nimble. Stay un-afraid. Stay well-informed. The Constitution means we are 100% in the right. That will only help when we're not dead.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:36 | 2615534 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

In the US we pretty much only produce pieces of paper so the means of production is in the hands of the state.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:41 | 2615543 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

The US is producing much more digitized paper than paper paper...

You might want to take a look at this Rob Kirby offering...

The rabbit hole is far deeper than most even imagine.

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