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Guest Post: The New York Times And Socialism

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

The New York Times and Socialism

In lieu of the election of Socialist President Francois Hollande and a Socialist Party collision as the majority in France’s Parliament, the New York Times recently asked “what does it mean to be a Socialist these days, anyway?”   According to The Grey Lady, socialism today is “certainly nothing radical” and simply meant the “the emancipation of the working class and its transformation into the middle class” during its heyday.  Essentially the article categorizes the contemporary socialist as one who is a rigorous defender of the welfare state.  The piece quotes French journalist Bernard-Henri Levy as saying “European socialists are essentially like American Democrats.”  It even accuses center-right political parties in the West of being quite comfortable with socialism’s accomplishments.

So is the New York Times correct?  Is socialism just a boogeyman evoked by the “fringes” to scare the public into questioning the morality and efficiency of the welfare state?

Going by the New York Times definition, socialism is just another word for social democracy.  But of course the word socialism never really referred to just welfare entitlements.  Properly defined, socialism is a society where the complete means of production and distribution of goods are solely in the hands of the state.  It is also a system defined by the absence of private property.  According to famed socialist and author Robert Heilbroner

If tradition cannot, and the market system should not, underpin the socialist order, we are left with some form of command as the necessary means for securing its continuance and adaptation. Indeed, that is what planning means…

The factories and stores and farms and shops of a socialist socioeconomic formation must be coordinated…and this coordination must entail obedience to a central plan.

If capitalism and private property are the natural state of free men, socialism is the violent overthrow of liberty.  Outlawing of private property and free enterprise is no easy task.  It requires a large amount of enforcement to see to it that nobody trades without the state’s permission.  And it is because of its oppressive nature that it is only through totalitarian dictatorship can socialism be fully realized.  Economist George Reisman explains

In sum, therefore, the requirements merely of enforcing price-control regulations is the adoption of essential features of a totalitarian state, namely, the establishment of the category of “economic crimes,” in which the peaceful pursuit of material self-interest is treated as a criminal offense, and the establishment of a totalitarian police apparatus replete with spies and informers and the power of arbitrary arrest and imprisonment.

Socialism cannot be ruled for very long except by terror. As soon as the terror is relaxed, resentment and hostility logically begin to well up against the rulers.

The New York Times paints socialism as a different picture.  The push for “democratic Marxism,” as the paper calls it, was responsible for creating a vibrant middle class with measures such as progressive taxation and a welfare safety net.  “Socialism and social democracy today are about a society with more solidarity, more protection of people, more egalitarianism” is how once-student revolt leader, now bureaucrat in the European Parliament Daniel Cohn-Bendit describes it.

No doubt these descriptions make for good political rhetoric.  State officials love nothing more than convincing the public they have brought them a standard of living beyond their wildest imagination.  Yet these claims are also completely false.  Government produces nothing; it can only redistribute using its implicit threat of violence.  Welfare transfer payments can’t be provided unless the private sector has produced wealth prior to confiscatory legislation.  Just as production must always precede consumption, government can’t rob Peter to pay Paul if Peter doesn’t first have something to steal.  No matter how hard they try, politicians can’t create a free lunch.  They can only order the citizenry around with the trigger of a gun.

This truth doesn’t fit well with the NYT’s favorable view of socialism.  The famously left-leaning newspaper never baulks at the chance to champion the newest scheme in government intervention.  Where the paper really misses the mark on actual socialism is the fact that it can’t work and is bound to fail.  True worldwide socialism will never create a worker’s paradise; just misery for all.

To proponents of incessant government control and regulation, such a statement is nonsense; even sacrilegious.  But in 1922 in his book “Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis,” Ludwig von Mises not only explained why a market economy with private property is superior to socialism, he refuted the socialist doctrine beyond anything the movement could even begin to disprove. Socialists at the time had no answer for Mises’ critique.  The same holds true for socialists today.

What was Mises’ devastating theory?  It’s actually quite simple.  Under a market economy, economic calculation is able to take place as long as there is private property and a pricing system.  Since prices act as signals between producers and consumers, they provide the basis for the rational distribution of resources.  Producers can’t fulfill the desires of consumers if they can’t calculate input costs and revenue.  Without the possibility of profit, what motive is there for producing in the first place?  Or as Hans-Herman Hoppe summarizes:

If there is no private property in land and other production factors (everything is owned by one agent), then, by definition, there can also be no market prices for them. Hence, economic calculation, i.e. the comparison, in light of current prices, of anticipated revenue, and expected cost expressed in terms of a common medium of exchange—money— (permitting cardinal accounting operations), is literally impossible. There can be no “economizing” under socialism. Socialism is instead “planned chaos.”

So precise was Mises’ theory that when the Soviet Union finally collapsed, Robert Heilbroner would go on to write in an article for the New Yorker entitled “Reflections: After Communism” that “socialism has been a great tragedy this century” and “no one expected collapse.”  After decades of denying Mises’ refutation of socialism, he was finally forced to admit “that Mises was right.”

To the working man, pure socialism only results in a state of destitution.  It is by no means the “emancipation of the working class.”  It is a system of top-down enforcement where the masses are treated as cogs in need of fine tuning.  Socialism gained traction only because leading intellectuals saw it as a possible utopia and did their best to convince the ruling establishment of its merits. “Socialism has never and nowhere been at first a working-class movement” as F.A. Hayek put it.  It has always been an economics system favored by those elitists who hoped to find themselves crowned as central planners.

The New York Times article ends by quoting Marc-Oliver Padis, editor of the academic journal Esprit, who asks “Is socialism really more than pragmatism?”  The answer is no.  Even in its moderated European form, the socialist sees the state as the answer for all of society’s questions.  He values violence over peace; compulsory over voluntary, slavery over freedom, and submission over dignity.  As long as France continues down the road to socialism, its economic future is in grave danger.  Judging by the amount of wealthy businessmen who have begun to flee France in favor of London, it would seem that people in the end generally feel entitled to the sweat of their brow.  As Mises never tired of pointing out,

A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings.

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Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:26 | 2615523 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

that's ok.  a socialist newspaper saves me money on TP wipes my ass just the same.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:45 | 2615549 Cortez the Killer
Cortez the Killer's picture

A national apology is owed to Senator McCarthy for the grave injustices done to him in his lifetime.

Socialism/welfare statism/fascism killed the USA

The only hope is the rise of sovereign states

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 10:52 | 2615579 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

I know, right? He should have been in the White House instead of Nixon.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:52 | 2615715 flacon
flacon's picture

NY Times and Paul Krugman: "A little theft, a little pinching of people's pockets is actually good and beneficial for society - and when times are tough, a lot of theft and a lot of pinching is even better, and during a depression wealth confiscaton on a grand scale is really beneficial to THE STATE whom we all serve as slaves. Without THE STATE there would be no one to serve and the economy would collapse because it is incomprehensible that people would work for themsleves and not for THE STATE."

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:20 | 2615776 Freddie
Freddie's picture

“the emancipation of the working class and its transformation into the middle class”

The middle class transformed into serfdom working like slaves for the elites, banksters and govt unionized goons and other union thugs.  Hope & Chains from the muslim.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:36 | 2616110 Chuck Walla
Chuck Walla's picture

Absolutely. The middle class promotes the welfare state it then has to pay for without any say so in the vast Liberal Progressive vote buying scheme. Then, when the golden goose dies, the Left looks to blame - the middle class reactionaries because they were too cheap to fund all the schemes...

 

Only now they have the power to drag a few reactionaries outside an shoot them. That's the current Stalinist/Maoist Theory which hasn't changed in 60 years.   FORWARD!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:52 | 2616340 knukles
knukles's picture

A Frenchman (supposedly intelligent) states that European Socialists and American Democrats are the same ilk.  He would also agree that the charges for YoMommaCare are taxes, as they, the French Socialists believe that higher taxes help expand the socialist state which they believe to be good for man and his economic freedom, etc., etc., etc..

That being said and accepted as Rational and Truthful by the French Socialists, the American Democrats could learn a lesson.

Quit fucking obfuscating because most folks are coming to not just have problems with the left (or right for that matter) and regardless of policy are sick and tired of the horse shit double talk, political correctness, lies and misinformation.
Quit lying.

In fact, would be best if the lefties and the righties just plain quit politics and left the world to the majority of people who'd just love to be left alone.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:51 | 2616478 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

.

 

Socialism = the economic system of the hunter-gatherer culture. It begot:

 

Fascism = the economic system of the pharaonic culture. It begot:

 

Free markets = the economic system of the freedom culture.

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:30 | 2616682 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

well don't stop there.  what do you call this misbegotten crony capitalism/debt slavery/rule of man not law we have now?  where the self regulated futures brokers apparently regularly steal the customers' money by fraud.  don't let ideology blind you to reality.

capitalism has a lot of wonderful things going for it but it is not a panacea.  as adam smith noted, no merchants meet but seek to subvert the market. "unpoliced" free markets become oligopolies and monopolies, often with the subversion of the state as a means.  essentially the only people who increased their real income during the last thirty years were the richest tenth.  what middle class?

for a sexier and more detailed version: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/07/fifty-shades-of-capitalism-pain-a...

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 02:04 | 2616920 redpill
redpill's picture

This is the kind of absurd ignorant horseshit that some alien race will find a record of in the distant future (long after we have exterminated ourselves out of sheer stupidity) that will be particularly embarrassing.

 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 20:02 | 2618834 roadhazard
roadhazard's picture

Freddie = always an original post.

secret Muslim, oh my. There are never enough problems that a good false claim verified by other clowns can't make better.

 you go girlz

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:38 | 2616122 agent default
agent default's picture

What is really sad is that we have reached the level where you can spew out this kind of crap with a straight face, without being at the very least ridiculed for it.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:57 | 2616347 knukles
knukles's picture

"without being at the very least ridiculed for it."

Unless of course your crap makes its way to ZeroHedge and you might just go so far as to be embarrassed..........

Look at the littlest Unicorn, Paul Krugman.
He's even given up trying in this venue.
And for God's sake that's pretty miserable to fail here when all's he's doing is spouting incomprehensible drivel.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:09 | 2616796 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

Westerners can practice future "benefits" of socialism in the comfort of their homes right now:

Poland's communist 'Monopoly' game goes global - Yahoo! News - http://is.gd/1ZxK2R

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:16 | 2616445 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

This is just Krugman's way of screaming Give me a lobotomy, quick!

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:14 | 2615758 Harriet Wanger
Harriet Wanger's picture

I agree, since he died in '57.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:36 | 2615984 mkhs
mkhs's picture

Dead corpse, Alzheimer, frat boy, social organizer; what difference does it make, anyway?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:10 | 2616062 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Whenever I hear about how bad socialism is, I always say "OK then let's just give Capital everything it wants". Seems to me we tried that, and here we are.

Another perspective is refreshing. Keep an open mind:

http://www.openculture.com/2010/07/the_crisis_of_capitalism_animated.html

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:24 | 2616092 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Open mind? When someone tells me that 1+1=3, well, I don't find that "refreshing" at all.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:13 | 2616364 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

OK, OK...let's just give ALL the money to the 1%. That's the track we're on. I happen to live in a "socialist" country, Australia, and things are pretty friggin good. Minimum wage is $17.50. Unemployment is 5.2%. Health care and retirement are available to all and cheap. One quarter of mildly negative growth was the full effect so far of the crisis. 20 years ago they called this "a worker's paradise", since then esp with John Howard (who idolized the Bush Crime Family) they have retreated a bit, but overall the idea of making sure there is still some money going into the hands of WORKERS who actually SPEND IT has worked well.

I'm not arguing for Socialism or Communism or Mercantilsm or whatever. Just making a few obvious points that the current system in the US to hand 100% of the money and power to the top 1% is not panning out so good IMO.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 20:50 | 2616587 Cabreado
Cabreado's picture

"I'm not arguing for Socialism or Communism or Mercantilsm or whatever"

Well then, you did a shitty job.

"Whenever I hear about how bad socialism is, I always say..."

You even provided a video.

 

"the current system in the US to hand 100% of the money and power to the top 1% is not panning out so good IMO."

Don't fall into the trap, HAL.
And don't peddle your wares in your state of unawareness.
You are dangerous, HAL, because you push terrible things as a solution to unresolved corruption.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 23:59 | 2616794 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"OK, OK...let's just give ALL the money to the 1%."

Why not, you already surrendered your last common defense to them, your gun. Where we at down there anyways, 28 days to buy one? And who is the the one percent and what does it control?

That givin up the gun thingy should be helpful...to whom is the question.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:35 | 2616115 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

Using the Marxist definition of Capitalism? I think you have "Capitalism" confused with Mercantilism.

 

But OK. I'll play your game.

 

Markets, Not Capitalism

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdrBeBwHenk

 

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:37 | 2616119 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Thanks for the laugh.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:51 | 2616154 jwoop66
jwoop66's picture

That moronic video was posted as an article a while ago on zh I believe. 

So if human beings interact freely in commerce, bad things happen and bad people sometimes act immorally.    To counter this possibility, you want to let a small group of human beings "control"  commerce.   What ensures that they behave in a more moral fashion?   What is it about this small group of human beings that makes them less corruptable?   Is it that they have so much power?  Are they smarter, or more well educated than the rest of us?   Are they from a better gene pool?   Are they more "open minded" than the rest of us?  

Watch that video again and ask yourself at each point posted - How would handing power of all the things mentioned over to a small group of human beings be less corrupt?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:57 | 2616269 r00t61
r00t61's picture

Or as Rothbard once succinctly put it, "So, in order to prevent the concentration of power, you would create an even even larger concentration of power?"

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:14 | 2616665 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

The return on thief at the wholesale level is way better then picking a bunch of retail Muppets for their lunch money.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:44 | 2616702 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

so what, no law enforcement?  strongest rules?  

it's a balancing act.  reality and history are not simply understood.  government corruption is eternal.  so is the battle against it.  markets need regulation (of fraud, of measures, of quality, etc. etc. etc.) to function.  consumer reports and the national futures association are not enough. people producing good products and services want it to keep gresham's law from operating universally.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 16:09 | 2616286 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

We are here because of over two hundred years of successful free market capitalism.

We have had one problem and that is the unwillingness to use bankruptcy which is a necessity for capitalism. Change that and we are without this cronyism that has engulfed us under this administration. I don't think it's necessary to blame anyone in this current administration but you have to recognize the problem. Bring back the bankruptcy procedures for insolvent banks and fund the good ones and you'll be surprised at how fast the economy responds.

Instead too many people continue to support government spending when this has nothing to do with the problem.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 23:28 | 2616757 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

I always say "OK then let's just give Capital everything it wants". Seems to me we tried that, and here we are.

Don't confuse "capitalism" with the feudalism and plutoratic mercantilism that actively seeks to slander its reputation to further their own agenda.

True capitalism is true monetary freedom.  And money now being essentially data and information, protection of its expression and opportunity to re-produce is essential to liberty and survival of the individual.


Sat, 07/14/2012 - 15:52 | 2616262 GOSPLAN HERO
GOSPLAN HERO's picture

Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 --

Signed into law by President John Adams in 1798, the Alien and Sedition Acts consisted of four laws passed by the Federalist-controlled Congress as America prepared for war with France. These acts increased the residency requirement for American citizenship from five to fourteen years, authorized the president to imprison or deport aliens considered "dangerous to the peace and safety of the United States" and restricted speech critical of the government. These laws were designed to silence and weaken the Democratic-Republican Party. Negative reaction to the Alien and Sedition Acts helped contribute to the Democratic-Republican victory in the 1800 elections. Congress repealed the Naturalization Act in 1802, while the other acts were allowed to expire.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:18 | 2616375 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Those people that advocate for socialism have generated over 120 million deaths through either starvation or murder, and probably a lot more, trying to reach their "Utopia". Nixon can not even cause a blip on that radar. Get real, dude.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:04 | 2616429 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

There should be no White House.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 11:09 | 2615626 azzhatter
azzhatter's picture

and it's been a smashing success in Europe

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:12 | 2615749 Reptil
Reptil's picture

Actually..... Social Democracy was a success. Until the citizens dozed off and politicians started "privatising" everything (giving it to their buddies).

But everyone's jumping on the bandwagon here. It's oh so popular to destroy the very mechanisms that were put in place after centuries of fighting, just because ppl. do not understand the meaning of the word SOCIALISM. It can't be put in place for a longer time but with terror? Hello? Are you insane? Of course the State means violence. What would you expect? The issue is that there's fair representation. Democracy isn't flawless, but it's the best thing out there ATM. France's socialism is a peculiar sort, it's very nationalistic. And not "pure" socialism at all.

THIS CRISIS HAS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER TO DO WITH SOCIALISM !!!!!!!!!! It's about CORRUPTION AND MACCHIVELLIAN PLANS TO CONQUER THE WORLD. This crisis is ARTIFICIAL.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:22 | 2615785 Freddie
Freddie's picture

They let third world invaders flood in as cheap labor.  That failed when the invaders jumped on the welfare bandwagon.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 12:31 | 2615809 tmosley
tmosley's picture

And how long did that take?  12 seconds, or 13?

Always blame the other guy, socialist scum.  Given any chance, you will even blame the 100 years absent capitalists for your troubles.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:41 | 2617125 Reptil
Reptil's picture

"blame the other guy"

What the fuck are you babbling about? It's obvious this crisis is not caused by socialist measures in democratic countries of western europe.

Look at balance sheets pre and after 2008. You'll see that the citizens ponied up the cash for their own welfare you sorry excuse for a turd.

Go stick your Thatcherisms somewhere where the sun doesn't shine you ignorant fool, they're 30+ years late. No where did I say I was anti-capitalist.

The people in Europe, my family, myself WE built up the welfare state. WE contributed willingly part of our paycheck, profits, WE have every right to USE a WORKING system.

SO FUCK OFF IT IS OURS, NOT THE BANKS, NOT THE SPECULATORS, NOT THE POLITICIANS, IT IS OUR LAND, OUR SYSTEM, OUR WEALTH.

WATCH THIS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVjXl9SOgBA

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 13:02 | 2615893 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Socialist states all end the same no matter the nuances. Broke.

Does anyone find the article in the NY Times out of place. I don't. This is how you defend Obama and his failures to improve the economy. Broadening the discussion to allow the Marxist all the cover he needs to show what an incapable leader he truly is. This allows all the liberals to claim how a vote for Obama is a vote for the common good and all that bs. Would this article have been written four years ago? The answer for you liberals is hell no because he could never have gotten elected then. But it makes sense now because Obama being the narcissist that he is thinks he can can run now and get your vote by the manner in which all socialist do and thats by class warfare and accompanying handouts to the perceived disadvantaged. Hugo Chavez did this to Venezuela.

Obama will not even have to mask his radical agenda anymore and Saul Alinsky (Rules for Radicals), George Soros (globalist), Van Jones, Valarie Jarret, and the weather undergrounds Bill Ayers have their guy in the white house and they are deciding the future of the democratic party and this country.

There is a difference between red and blue  ...

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 14:27 | 2616100 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Watch out for the "Now youse can't leave" moment.

http://ferfal.blogspot.com/2012/07/argentina-now-you-cant-leave.html

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 17:21 | 2616327 bobnoxy
bobnoxy's picture

In a sea of clueless anti-Socialist rants in here, yours stands out. As moronic.

You must have been sleeping when the crash hit in 2008. Your capitalist model economy collapsed, and we, the Brits and the Japanese are all reduced to beggar status, going around the world to Commie and Socialist countries, hat in hand, looking for loans.

The Commies and Socialists have all the money, and the biggest capitalists are insolvent but for printing Monopoly money.

Hey, on principle, how many of you plan on refusing your Medicare and Social Security benefits? And don't say you paid for them. You paid forward, and younger people will pay your benefits. Pure Socialism, right?

From those who can to those who need? I'm betting you'll all be right there in line on Day 1.

Being gullible is not a virtue. Some highly paid propagandists for the ultra rich sell you on this stuff, along with abortion, gay marriage and immigration to get you all fired up to vote for the people who keep robbing you blind. And you do!

And again, first in line to go along! Solid. Yes, there's a difference between red and blue. Liberals are more educated, proven fact. Republicans get virtually 100% of the Redneck vote, with or without GED's, and you too. You belong together.

 

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 22:49 | 2616709 Max Fischer
Max Fischer's picture

Perfectly stated. Next time you're in a bookstore, look for "Pity the Billionaire," by Thomas Frank. You'll love it.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:22 | 2616826 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The Commies and Socialists have all the money, and the biggest capitalists are insolvent but for printing Monopoly money."

ROTFL!!!...they do?

Where do they get it from? Does it appear from the sky like manna from heaven? Well, that can't be right because "real communists" don't believe in God or heaven do they? So its not divine intervention. Well, lets see then...it must come from the state.

Then where does the state get it from then? Well now, they either confiscate it from the productive through taxation or print it don't they?

So, what is it really then...communist and socialist states tax heavilly on their populations or they counterfeit their own currencies?

Choice is an over used word that winds up in the same place often times doesn't it? Only a free man understands it completely.

Good luck slave.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 09:00 | 2617083 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

This nonsense you people are arguing about right and wrong as if one system is any better than the other. Capitalism gave the west the freedom to buy better rope to hang itself and a more efficent market to sell its children into slavery. The free market countries never taxed as much as the commuists and Socialists because they took out debt in our granchildrens names and then persuaded us to take out even more debt in our name. Free market buisnesses have and continue to start wars across the world. British East India Company,Energy industry in the ME, Fruit Companies in Latin America. Freedom gives idiots the power to destroy their and sociteys future. You talk about freedom and property like its a virtue and you'll defend it as a principal. But i'll tell you this sir if theres ever a famine and your family have to eat ill expect you to uphold my decision to wait for the last possible moment of your peoples starvation and then take you to the cleaners for all your property. Free Market sir your daughters are free to whore themselves to old men to pay for your retirement. If it comes to it I expect you to be comfortable with this situation as healthy reflection of economic freedom.

You make this massive mistake that so so many middle class westerners do. Make out that human nature in the absence of tyranny is good and just. We aren't fucked because we're Socialists or Capitalists were fucked because were human beings.

Kind Regards

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 10:54 | 2617200 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Freedom gives idiots the power to destroy their and sociteys future."

So by your logic no freedom is the way to go then? Better to live like a dog begging at the table, waiting for the master to throw a scrap over his shoulder...is that about it? 

"You talk about freedom and property like its a virtue and you'll defend it as a principal."

I do, damned straight.

"But i'll tell you this sir if theres ever a famine and your family have to eat ill expect you to uphold my decision to wait for the last possible moment of your peoples starvation and then take you to the cleaners for all your property."

That would be in your society.

You see, I have the freedom AND property to grow a garden and hunt. I don't need to go to a grocery store or rely on a strangers generosity or daddy.gov. If those strangers (you, I would suppose) show up at my house to confiscate my property by force some of them may get it in the end but they can never take my freedom, only my life.

And I can guarantee you that eugenicist thinkers like you will be dramatically thinned out for your trouble...thus, my contribution to society and the gene pool.

You're welcome in advance my fellow societal travelers ;-)

"Free Market sir your daughters are free to whore themselves to old men to pay for your retirement. If it comes to it I expect you to be comfortable with this situation as healthy reflection of economic freedom."

Your better arrangement is whoring all children and future generations chances for any prosperity and freedom at all...by the endless servitude and debt to a socialist utopian state which has and never will exist?

"You make this massive mistake that so so many middle class westerners do. >>>Make out that human nature in the absence of tyranny is good and just.<<< We aren't fucked because we're Socialists or Capitalists were fucked because were human beings.

And you brainwashed SOB's must be smokin crack.

The absence of tyranny is just and dignified.

Human nature has always sought freedom, not tyranny and domination. If you desire to be dominated and have despots tell you where to go, what to eat, when to eat, what to think and say there are many places for you to go.

But it sounds like you already live in one.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 13:53 | 2617775 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

Your talking about some fantasy world brother. You want to go grow a garden raise sheep and hunt be my guest.Most people can't.Most people Won't. Most people are living in urban enviroments. Its crowded its busy its highly productive. No fucking hunting goes on unless your police,.

Why don't you try and do a Deurbanization campaign to build your new socitey.  They tried it in Cambodia.......

 

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 19:15 | 2618757 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

So why is it the only places where Europeans are thriving are Socialist. Scandanavia and Australia are looking pretty good. Shit went tits up for the Eastern Europeans after they lost their socialism. Ended up cleaning toilets in the West of Europe after they ended the great social experiemnt and brought in much needed free market economics.

On the Latino front Chavez is facing hyper inflation. He says its the Americans screwing up his carefully planned economy. He keeps trying to nationalize foreign shit. Gave the idea to the Argentinians.People keep calling it financial terrorism but when they did it in Wall Street, nationalized their losses i mean, it was called a crisis we had to bail those motherfuckers out.

Its not the worst thing that ever happened in Latin America you know. Socialism all that. I heard a story they were forcing back street abortions on the Indians women folk. Paying them off to get sterilized. That was all Free market though so your partisan troll ass would never have heard about any of that.

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 18:38 | 2616466 WeekendAtBernankes
WeekendAtBernankes's picture

How in the Fuck,

did so many socialists end up on ZH?

Sat, 07/14/2012 - 19:37 | 2616514 Ms. Erable
Ms. Erable's picture

Eurotrash invasion.

Sun, 07/15/2012 - 00:25 | 2616828 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Good question.

Maybe they think theres profit to be had on anothers labor ;-)

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