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Guest Post: The Old Man And The Sea - 2011

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Submitted by Jim Quinn of The Burning Platform

The Old Man And The Sea - 2011

The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; the second is war. Both bring a temporary prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunists.” Ernest Hemingway


“Though the Federal Reserve policy harms the average American, it benefits those in a position to take advantage of the cycles in monetary policy. The main beneficiaries are those who receive access to artificially inflated money and/or credit before the inflationary effects of the policy impact the entire economy. Federal Reserve policies also benefit big spending politicians who use the inflated currency created by the Fed to hide the true costs of the welfare-warfare state.” Ron Paul

Ernest Hemingway and Ron Paul never met. Ron Paul was completing medical school in 1961 when Hemingway committed suicide at his home in Idaho. I think they would have hit it off. I stumbled across the quote from Hemingway above. Those words could have come directly out of the mouth of Ron Paul. Both men spent their whole lives seeking the truth and presenting their ideas in a blunt straightforward manner. Hemingway is one of the most renowned writers in American history, with classics such as A Farewell to Arms, For Whom the Bell Tolls, and The Sun Also Rises to his credit. He won the Nobel Prize for literature in 1954. He constructed a new literary style characterized by lean, hard, sparse dialogue. He influenced literature and young authors for decades. As a teenager I was immediately drawn to his gritty realistic novels. There was no nonsense to his novels. They always involved man’s struggle against death and hardship. Most of his best work was done in the 1920s and 1930s, but he produced one of his finest works in 1951 towards the end of his life. Hemingway won the Pulitzer Prize for his story about an epic battle between an old man and a great marlin.

Ernest Hemingway was bigger than life. Hemingway’s real life reads like a Stephen Spielberg Indiana Jones movie. He was an ambulance driver in World War I, where he was seriously wounded. He had four wives. He lived in Paris during the 1920s associating with other famous “Lost Generation” writers. He was a correspondent during the Spanish Civil War and World War II, while also joining in the fighting. He survived two plane crashes and multiple car accidents. He battled alcoholism and mental illness, eventually taking his own life, just as his father, brother and sister had done before him. His novels reflected the pain, struggle and inevitability of death that permeated his own life.

The Old Man and the Sea is a novel about Santiago, an old fisherman whose life is approaching its conclusion, and his final heroic struggle against a great marlin and the evil sharks that ultimately devour his prize. The mark of a great writer is the ability to tell a story that means many things to many people. Hemingway described his aim in writing this novel:

“No good book has ever been written that has in it symbols arrived at beforehand and stuck in. … I tried to make a real old man, a real boy, a real sea and a real fish and real sharks. But if I made them good and true enough they would mean many things.”

His novels always had a gritty reality to them. This particular novel is rich with symbolism and life lessons that are timeless and relevant today. The plot of the story is quite basic, but the character analysis reveals much deeper insights. For eighty-four days, Santiago, an aged Cuban fisherman, has set out to sea and returned empty-handed. So strikingly unlucky is he that the parents of his young, devoted apprentice and friend, Manolin, have forced the boy to leave the old man in order to fish in a more prosperous boat. On the eighty-fifth day he decides to sail far into the Gulf Stream past where most fishermen would dare venture alone. A big fish, which he knows is a marlin, takes the bait that Santiago has placed one hundred fathoms deep in the waters. The old man expertly hooks the fish, but he cannot pull it in. Instead, the fish begins to pull the boat.

Unable to tie the line fast to the boat for fear the fish would snap a taut line, the old man bears the strain of the line with his shoulders, back, and hands, ready to give slack should the marlin make a run. The great fish pulls the boat for two straight days. The entire time, Santiago endures constant pain from the fishing line. Whenever the fish lunges, leaps, or makes a dash for freedom, the cord cuts Santiago badly. Although wounded and weary, the old man feels a deep empathy and admiration for the marlin, his brother in suffering, strength, and resolve. On the third day, the fish tires and Santiago is able to kill him with his harpoon. He lashes it to the side of the boat and begins the long journey home.

As Santiago navigates toward his destination, the marlin’s blood leaves a trail in the water and attracts sharks. The first to attack is a great mako shark, which Santiago manages to slay with the harpoon. In the struggle, the old man loses the harpoon, which leaves him vulnerable to more shark attacks. The vicious predator sharks continuously attack Santiago’s trophy and despite killing several of the sharks, his battle became ultimately hopeless. He fights a gallant fight, revealing man’s finest qualities of bravery, confidence, courage, patience, optimism, and intelligence during the struggle.

The scavengers devour the marlin’s precious meat, leaving only skeleton, head, and tail. Santiago chastises himself for going “out too far,” and for sacrificing his great and worthy opponent. He arrives home before daybreak, stumbles back to his shack, and sleeps very deeply. The next morning, a crowd of amazed fishermen gathers around the skeletal carcass of the fish, which is still lashed to the boat. Manolin, who had been worried sick over the old man’s absence, is moved to tears when he finds Santiago safe in his bed. The boy fetches the old man some coffee and the daily papers with the baseball scores, and watches him sleep. When the old man awakens, the two agree to fish as partners once more. The old man returns to sleep and dreams his usual dream of lions at play on the beaches of Africa.

Sadness, resignation and the inevitability of death permeate the pages of this brilliant novel. But it is grace under pressure in the face of overwhelming odds that is the true message Hemingway leaves with the reader. There is no avoiding death, but the critical test of mankind is how you live your life and how you endure the suffering and pain that are inflicted upon you.

The Honor in Struggle, Defeat & Death

“But man is not made for defeat,” he said. “A man can be destroyed but not defeated.” –  Ernest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea 


“It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end.” - Ernest Hemingway

Life is a journey. At the end of every worldly journey, death awaits. That is a certainty. The ending will be the same for everyone who walks this earth. What matters is the course chosen on the voyage through life. The vast sea represents life’s journey, with its ebbs, flows, and storms that must be navigated. In Hemingway’s portrait of the world, death is inevitable, but the finest men will nonetheless refuse to give in to its power.  In both the sea and in life, there are a number of possibilities that lie hidden from the common eye; some are gifts to be treasured and some are problems to be defeated. Neither will be found unless man embarks upon the journey. If man is lucky enough to discover a treasure he must fight until death to retain it; if man is unlucky enough to discover an evil lurking underneath the surface of the sea, he must fight it bravely and nobly until the end. In either case, it is the struggle that is all- important, and a man obtains the status of hero if he battles the sea (life) with grace under pressure. The only way to obtain the status of hero is to set sail on the uncertain sea of life.

Ron Paul, trained as a doctor in the early 1960s, served his country as an Air Force flight surgeon from 1963 through 1968 during the Vietnam War. He’s been married for 54 years and has raised five children. He has delivered 4,000 babies during his medical career, while routinely providing free care to poor patients and refusing to accept Medicare or Medicaid payments. He has also refused to accept a government pension, seeing it as immoral and hypocritical. He could have spent his life running his medical practice, playing by government mandated rules, and becoming a multi-millionaire. Instead he chose to embark on an uncertain journey into the sea of Washington politics.

He decided to begin his struggle against tyranny, big government and currency debasement by the Federal Reserve on August 15, 1971. While still a medical resident during the 1960s, Paul was influenced by Friedrich Hayek’s The Road to Serfdom, which led him to read many publications by Ludwig von Mises. He became acquainted with economists Hans Sennholz and Murray Rothbard, and credits them with his interest in the study of economics. He came to believe what the Austrian school economists wrote was confirmed when President Richard Nixon “closed the gold window” by implementing the U.S. dollar’s complete departure from the gold standard. On that day, the young physician decided to enter the rough treacherous seas of politics, saying later, “After that day, all money would be political money rather than money of real value.”

Winning and losing are not what is important in life, as we all will lose out to death in the end. It is the honor gained during the struggle that matters. It’s the legacy we leave for future generations. Did we fight the good fight, or did we sit idly by while life passed by? Did your life mean something to someone? You can stay safely on the shore or you can jump into your skiff and sail into the deep water and conquer your marlin. Both Santiago and the marlin display qualities of pride, honor, and courage, and both are subject to the same eternal law: they must kill or be killed. As Santiago reflects when he observes the weary warbler fly toward shore, where it will inescapably meet the hawk, the world is filled with marauders, and no living thing can escape the unavoidable struggle that will lead to its demise. Man and fish will struggle to the death, just as ravenous sharks will ravage an old man’s prize catch.

Ron Paul chose to join the struggle in 1976 when he was elected a Congressman from Texas for the first time. His years in Washington have been a never ending struggle against corruption, the military industrial complex, and the Federal Reserve currency manipulators. He has been a lone fisherman fighting for truth and liberty for over three decades. We are all pulled by our own individual marlins. Ron Paul has endured scorn and derision, much like Santiago endured from the other fishermen after going eighty four days without a catch. He has always stayed focused on the important issues that have led to the relentless decline of the American Empire: liberty versus security, freedom versus government control, and sound money versus persistent Federal Reserve created inflation. He has fought forces within his own party and in the opposition party. Despite fighting this battle alone for decades and being bloodied and battered, he has never given up the fight.

Hemingway’s novel suggests that it is possible to transcend natural law. The very inescapability of destruction creates the terms that allow an admirable man to rise above it. It is specifically through the endeavor to combat the inevitable that a man can prove himself. Indeed, a man can prove this resolve over and over through the worthiness of the adversary he chooses to fight. Santiago, though devastated at the end of the novel, is never defeated. Instead, he emerges as a dignified conqueror. Santiago’s struggle does not enable him to change man’s position in the world. Rather, it enables him to meet his most noble destiny.

After toiling fruitlessly for decades in the corrupt halls of Congress, surrounded by sharks, scorned by the corporate mainstream media pundits, and ignored by a public that has chosen security and delusions of credit based wealth over freedom and personal responsibility, Ron Paul chose to take on his greatest challenge – seeking the Presidency of the United States. The odds were overwhelmingly against him in 2008 and they are again in 2012. He is 76 years old and has every right to be sitting on his porch in Lake Jackson, Texas enjoying the twilight years of his life. He is driven by his sense of duty to future generations of our once great country. Even though deep in his heart he knows this struggle will end in defeat, he endures. He will continue to spread his message of liberty, freedom, sound money and an optimism that has attracted millions of young people to his worldview. Like Santiago, Ron Paul is determined to show “what a man can do and what a man endures.”  

Pride as the Source of Greatness & Determination

“His choice had been to stay in the deep dark water far out beyond all snares and traps and treacheries. My choice was to go there to find him beyond all people. Beyond all people in the world. Now we are joined together and have been since noon. And no one to help either one of us.”Ernest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea 


“The original American patriots were those individuals brave enough to resist with force the oppressive power of King George. I accept the definition of patriotism as that effort to resist oppressive state power. The true patriot is motivated by a sense of responsibility and out of self-interest for himself, his family, and the future of his country” – Ron Paul

The reason Santiago ventured into the deep waters of the Gulf, far past where a lesser fisherman would dare endeavor, was pride. It wasn’t the false pride of vanity, but the pride described by St. Augustine as “the love of one’s own excellence”. It was a virtuous pride revealing his greatness of soul and faith in his own abilities. Santiago’s pride ended up being his tragic flaw. He went out beyond the boundaries of a normal fisherman. In the end he was ruined, along with his prize, by the malevolent sharks. His run of bad luck was an affront to his pride and drove him to go beyond his limits.

Hemingway does not denounce Santiago for being full of pride. On the contrary, Santiago stands as testimony that pride inspires men to greatness. Because the old man concedes that he killed the mighty marlin largely out of pride, and because his capture of the marlin leads in turn to his heroic transcendence of defeat, pride becomes the source of Santiago’s greatest strength. Without a fierce sense of pride, that battle would never have been fought, or would have been forsaken before the end.

Ron Paul has a clear vision of the America our forefathers imagined. It is a vision of a people free from government control of every aspect of their lives. It’s a vision where the people keep what they earn and don’t pay half to government to be redistributed based upon a politician’s re-election aspirations. It’s a vision where the people are free to make their own choices and free to succeed or fail based on their own merits. It’s a vision where a truly free market exists and private bankers do not control and manipulate the currency. It’s a vision that calls for a strong national defense, not being the policeman to the world. It’s a vision where we follow the U.S. Constitution and the rule of law. It’s a vision where a limited government ensures the liberties and freedoms of the population. It’s a vision that calls for balanced budgets, sound money, and citizens and corporations accepting the consequences of their actions. If Santiago was a fisherman in the U.S. today, he would be required to have a license to fish, a permit for his boat, pay taxes on his catch, and probably have to release the marlin because it was endangered. Some government thug would have met Santiago at the dock and written him a ticket for being at sea too long and illegal feeding of sharks.

Is Ron Paul running for President because he desires power, control and glory? Anyone who has ever seen Ron Paul or heard him speak knows he is decent man desperately trying to convey his message:

“The most basic principle to being a free American is the notion that we as individuals are responsible for our own lives and decisions. We do not have the right to rob our neighbors to make up for our mistakes, neither does our neighbor have any right to tell us how to live, so long as we aren’t infringing on their rights. Freedom to make bad decisions is inherent in the freedom to make good ones. If we are only free to make good decisions, we are not really free.” 

It is Ron Paul’s pride and unswerving belief in his message of freedom that inspires him to forge ahead in this grueling voyage destined to fail in the eyes of the media and political sharks that circle him, attacking at every opportunity. What these superficial toadies will never understand is that winning isn’t what is important to Ron Paul. It’s the message and the truth that matters. His pride enables him to endure. It is endurance that matters most in Hemingway’s conception of the world—a world in which death and destruction, as part of the natural order of things, are unavoidable. Hemingway seems to believe there are only two options: defeat or endurance until destruction; Santiago and Ron Paul have chosen the latter. Their stoic determination is mythic, nearly Christ-like in proportion.

Grace Under Pressure

“Every man’s life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and how he died that distinguish one man from another.”Ernest Hemingway



“Freedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference. Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. Liberty has meaning only if we still believe in it when terrible things happen and a false government security blanket beckons.” Ron Paul

Hemingway unquestionably likens Santiago to Christ throughout the novel. Like Christ, he is filled with goodness, patience, and humility. The forces of evil, however, are arrayed against Santiago, as seen when he fends off the sharks. Similarly, Christ had to clash with the wicked Pharisees in Jerusalem. Both men’s struggles end with shame and humiliation. Christ is betrayed, beaten, forced to carry his own cross, and is crucified, with arms outstretched and bleeding hands nailed to the cross. Santiago is betrayed by the sharks and his spirit crushed. Arriving home a disconsolate man, he struggles up the hill with his mast across his back, much like Christ bearing the cross up to Calvary. When he finally lies down in his bed, his arms are stretched straight out with palms up, and his hands are bleeding. It is an obvious reflection of Christ on the cross.

Having read hundreds of articles by Ron Paul and watched an equal number of interviews he has given over the last five years, his goodness, patience and humility shine through in every instance, along with his knowledge, diligence and charitable nature. The ideologues on the left wing and the right wing that dominate the dialogue in the mainstream media despise Dr. Paul and his message. They attempt to denigrate and humiliate him through their propaganda machines by twisting his words and misrepresenting his positions. They fear his message of individual responsibility and peaceful interaction with all nations. Those in power want to control our lives and force American values upon other nations. If Dr. Paul’s ideas were to take root with the American people, the era of corporate fascist big government would be over. The welfare – warfare state would begin to wither away. Dr. Paul, much like Santiago and Christ, never lashes out at the forces of evil confronting him along his journey. He is stoic and resolute as he spreads his message of truth, liberty and hope.     

Santiago’s favorite baseball player was Joe DiMaggio. The Yankee Clipper was the greatest ballplayer of his era. His 56 game hitting streak has never been surpassed. He led his team to nine World Series victories in his thirteen seasons. He played much of his career with painful bone spurs in his heel. His father was a fisherman, as were generations before him. DiMaggio inspired Santiago with his leadership qualities and the determination to win, in spite of handicaps. The image of the baseball hero playing in pain gave Santiago renewed vigor and stamina to bear his own pain. Joe DiMaggio was later used by Simon & Garfunkel as a symbol of an America longing for its past glory:

Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio,
Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
What’s that you say, Mrs. Robinson.
Jolting Joe has left and gone away,
Hey hey hey.

Mrs. Robinson

Joe DiMaggio was a symbol of excellence, perseverance, determination and leadership. He overcame adversity and triumphed despite his constant pain. Ron Paul has persevered through decades of obscurity and adversity. But, now his time has come. He is the intellectual godfather of the Tea Party movement. The neo-conservative element of the Republican Party has attempted to hijack the true Tea Party message of limited government, individual liberty, non-interventionism in foreign lands, freedom to live our lives without a smothering government bureaucracy dictating mandates at every turn, and a sound currency not controlled by a private banking cabal. As our country spirals downward due to the complete hijacking of our political system by the moneyed interests on Wall Street and the military industrial complex, leading us into never ending wars, Ron Paul’s message is finally striking a chord, especially among the young people who will be saddled with the crushing debt created by those in power. Despite the blatant lies and attempts to discredit and ignore him, Ron Paul charges forward with perseverance and courage unheard of in a man his age. He doesn’t do it for the glory, but for the unborn future generations who have no voice in their future.

Santiago dreams of lions throughout the novel first as cubs playing on the beach and ultimately as noble warriors, signifying great strength and a sense of renewal and vitality. They inspire confidence and optimism about the future. The old will give way to the young. The aged majestic warrior, through his example of bravery, courage and persistence, leaves the young warriors with a shining example of living life to its utmost and sacrificing personal glory for the good of the many. Ron Paul may not win the Presidency, but the example he has set for the young people of this country has laid the groundwork for a better tomorrow. His message of liberty, freedom and responsibility will resonate far after he has left this earth.

All of the symbols employed by Hemingway add to premise that life is an endless struggle with illusory rewards. In order to achieve nobility in life, a person must exhibit bravery, poise, courage, patience, optimism, and intelligence during the struggle. Then, even if the prize is lost, the person has won the battle, proving himself capable of retaining grace under pressure, the ultimate test of mankind. Ron Paul’s life is a shining example of grace under pressure. He has single handedly battled his great fish (Big Government, Big Finance, Big Military) for four decades with no helpers and many detractors. His journey is nearing its end. But it isn’t how it ends that matters. The journey is what separates the noble lion (Ron Paul) from the hyenas (corrupt politicians) and jackals (media). Ron’s message will not die. His son will carry the torch. The young people who have been inspired by his words and example will carry the torch. All of our lives will end the same way. The lesson to be learned from Ron Paul is how we should live our lives.

The ideologically myopic pundits that pass for the intelligentsia in the mainstream media scornfully declare that Ron Paul has no chance of winning, when all critical thinking citizens recognize that he has already won. They can destroy him, but he will not be defeated.

“Up the road, in his shack, the old man was sleeping again. He was still sleeping on his face and the boy was sitting by him watching him. The old man was dreaming about the lions.”  - Ernest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea 


“Ideas are very important to the shaping of society. In fact, they are more powerful than bombings or armies or guns. And this is because ideas are capable of spreading without limit. They are behind all the choices we make. They can transform the world in a way that governments and armies cannot. Fighting for liberty with ideas makes more sense to me than fighting with guns or politics or political power. With ideas, we can make real change that lasts.” Ron Paul


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Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:50 | 1684038 cossack55
cossack55's picture

The fishing is extremely lively within 5 kms of Fukushima.  Sadly, every fish you pull out will look like The Bernank.


RP 2012

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:20 | 1684125 fuu
fuu's picture

Now with Neptunium!

Go Ron Paul!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:44 | 1684234 ww2vet
ww2vet's picture

another losing idea from zh fools --- like gold which keeps failing and failing -$1500 before  if ever! $2000 - i'm sure most zh  on food stamps

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:51 | 1684272 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

How's that nexus between Social Security's lack of COLA and real (not CPI crap) inflation treatin' ya?

Enjoying your cat food?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:51 | 1684273 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Oh look, another retard with the attention span of a gnat.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:54 | 1684286 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Sigh. Remember the good old days when trolls were funny?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:02 | 1684316 Gmpx
Gmpx's picture

I am not on food stamps and I have my own business in black and no debt. I was dirt poor on several occasions and know what it means. Ron Paul is your savious dear Americans. He is making history now and those who do not support him will be remembered as schmuks in the history books.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:37 | 1684477's picture

Ron Paul is your savious dear Americans.


Ron Paul is John the Baptist. He announces the arrival of the savior who is you...and you...and you.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 20:47 | 1686897 V10
V10's picture

I support most of Ron Paul's positions, but please, I'm sick of hearing "He's the messiah!" about any politician.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 12:56 | 1689273 scrappy
scrappy's picture

Nice essay, however, there is one glaring problem with Ron Paul and all the libertarians of the Mises School of thought, and that is the advocacy of the “Gold Standard”

I suggest you follow the below link to find out why, and perhaps if you are open minded, adjust your views Jim.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:22 | 1684136 falak pema
falak pema's picture

The sparkling Bernanke has a touch of class like the great Gatsby. I'm not sure Hemingway would have liked this allusion to his rival whose wife drove him nuts, as she craved for nut cracker's suite all the time with her french lover, to the point of ending up in a swiss shrink resort where they knew how to electrochoc her neurotic impulses. It miscured her definitively. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:29 | 1685045 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

I couldn’t forgive him or like him, but I saw that what he had done was, to him, entirely justified. It was all very careless and confused. They were careless people, Tom and Daisy — they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made. . .


Bernanke is the rich patriarch who is enabling the irresponsible and selfish child-like behavior amongst the upper crust. What the old aristocracy possesses in taste, however, it seems to lack in heart, as the East Eggers prove themselves careless, inconsiderate bullies who are so used to money’s ability to ease their minds that they never worry about hurting others.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:32 | 1685060 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture
The Valley of Ashes

The valley of ashes between West Egg and New York City consists of a long stretch of desolate land created by the dumping of industrial ashes. It represents the moral and social decay that results from the uninhibited pursuit of wealth, as the rich indulge themselves with regard for nothing but their own pleasure. The valley of ashes also symbolizes the plight of the poor, like George Wilson, who live among the dirty ashes and lose their vitality as a result.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 13:04 | 1685188 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

“Though the Federal Reserve policy harms the average American, it benefits those in a position to take advantage of the cycles in monetary policy. The main beneficiaries are those who receive access to artificially inflated money and/or credit before the inflationary effects of the policy impact the entire economy. Federal Reserve policies also benefit big spending politicians who use the inflated currency created by the Fed to hide the true costs of the welfare-warfare state.” Ron Paul


This is the "trickle down" theory in its essence.

  1. Fed prints money and give to primary dealers.
  2. Primary dealers allocate money into various funnels including Treasury, foreign investments, private sector, small banks
  3. Then politicians, executives, local banks provid funding to business units, political special interests, small businesses
  4. Employees and worker bees who in turn recycle the money back as consumers

Currently, the money is at step 2 where large banksters are "investing" into commodities and other real assets effectively front running the release of the money supply  into the general economy, because they know money supply has increased thus inflation is guaranteed in the future. This is why banks will always make money with smallest risk. The money changers proved themseleves to be irresponsible, but they are once again rescued while main street suffers. The system is corrupt.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:27 | 1684146 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

On the contrary, I believe the old man in Hemmingway's book more strikingly resembles Dr Paul Krugman. Since the 2007 housing market crash, Dr Krugman has been tirelessly calling for bold fiscal and monetary stimulus programs. Initially, his suggestions were willingly implemented in the form of cash for clunkers and and other programs. This was Krugman's marlin - the controversial advice he had given was wiloingly accepted by congress and happily accomodated by Federal Reserve officials. Over the next four years however, Krugman's marlin was torn to pieces as congress failed to continue the necessary fiscal stimulus programs. As a result the economy began to once again deterriorate and Krugman's reputation was scarred by Libertarian propagandists.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:36 | 1684191 Vergeltung
Vergeltung's picture

even for satire, that was an over-reach.  :-)


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:11 | 1684345 theMAXILOPEZpsycho
theMAXILOPEZpsycho's picture

You make me piss my pant laughing every time! The thing is, say what you say to my family, collegues, etc and they'll all agree in unison!

Anyway, great article! sometimes its good to remember great men of the past battling with life, existence, destiny. It makes the whole debate on debt, greece, hyperinflation, credit, money supply, gold etc etc seem trivial.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:16 | 1684666 TheBillMan
TheBillMan's picture

Oh God, I love your comments.  However, I the analogy should be Dr. Klugman (and yes I misspelled his name on purplose) as the marlin getting eaten by the sharks (angry public).  Better yet, several marlins each representing the Bernank, Turbo Timmah, and their ilk.  They all get eaten.  Now if there was only some way to get the bad taste out of your mouth afterwards.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:17 | 1684667 TheBillMan
TheBillMan's picture

Oh God, I love your comments.  However, I think the analogy should be Dr. Klugman (and yes I misspelled his name on purpose) as the marlin getting eaten by the sharks (angry public).  Better yet, several marlins each representing the Bernank, Turbo Timmah, and their ilk.  They all get eaten.  Now if there was only some way to get the bad taste out of your mouth afterwards.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:51 | 1684041 oobrien
oobrien's picture

Well, I live in Asia.

And I'm drunk on Jinro Soju.

Goodnight, ladies.

Sweet dreams.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:14 | 1684105 janus
janus's picture

oh, shit!

you did not just say soju!

janus has em heap of stories involving that strange, unregulated brew.

osan and kunsan, bitchez!

i'll just let them fade into the recesses of my memories; but, careful with that shit, you never know how drunk you are till you stand....and then, invariably, fall.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:41 | 1684225 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

Koreans alone consume nearly one billion bottles of Jinro Soju per month, and its 24% alcohol. 

The company web site states, "Its alcohol content is just enough to give a "kick" to your favorite cocktails but mild enough for an extended drinking experience."


Maybe Krugman, Geithner, Bernanke, Summers, and the Big O should partake?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:52 | 1684042 eazyas
eazyas's picture

Big Ronnie talks the talk, but can he walk the walk ?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:55 | 1684057 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

The Tea Party control the Republican Party.  They've all but annointed Rick Perry.  Ron Paul is an Republican ideal whose time has passed.  So sayest the bible, and the constitution.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:07 | 1684087 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

The Tea Party has been hijacked.


How many of you truly think that Sara Palin truly was a Tea Party member?  And Rick Perry?

These people just sway in the wind of voter mood.  But does anything think they will ever deliver the true medicine this Country needs?


Never.  They are just more incarnations of the corrupt system we already have.  Sadly, too many people have taken the bait that the hijacked tea party has thrown.


The tea party was real to start with.  And it shocked both parties.  But now, it's nothing.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:43 | 1684228 hampsterwheel
hampsterwheel's picture

First of all Ron Paul speaking is the closest thing we have to a founder alive - the fact that his message is thrown in the trash, or that is foreign policy is called "dangerous" shows you just how far we have come.

America is an Oligarchy, she is no longer a free soveriegn nation - one look at a dollar bill tells you that. Our Republic is dead - and perhaps it should be for it was made for only a moral people. Therefore we have the very tyranny we deserve.

There is zero way this oligarchy will allow a competing currency or political thought to gain power. Supreme court? LOL - as corrupt as every other branch just no one wants to discuss that.

We are living in a matrix of our own creating - as long as ESPN and country music exist and old men tear up over patriotic symbols and of long dead buddies then the wars and the oligarchy will remain.

So we will go on proping up the House of Saud, if money doesn't work then bombs will. We will on making sure our boys in Afghanistan die so as to give the CIA all the Heroin money they need to play their off budget games - we will export our inflation across the globe creating instability and ruining lives - but as long as we get ours its all good....

Enjoy it will it lasts - the Romans certainly did, it was only that last generation that it kinda of sucked belonging to - those Hun's were a bitch...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:39 | 1684485 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

good post hampster..... isn't the truth depressing?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:42 | 1684834 Raymond Reason
Raymond Reason's picture

Always refreshing to read through the expressed thoughts of a clear and sound mind.  Its why i read  posts on this site, many gems to be found.  Yes the truth is grim.  But i'd rather hear the grim truth, than a pleasant lie. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:47 | 1684256 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

that is my position, entirely.  It's masterful, the way they pulled it off.  They weren't even covering their tracks along the way... it was right out in the open.  Sean Hannity embraces it.... attach Palin and Perry to the message... saddle the movement with a number of social issues and you're right back where you started.  A single party acting as two with a number of pretend wedge issues keeping them corralled.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 15:40 | 1685792 Ura Bonehead
Ura Bonehead's picture

These people just sway in the wind of voter mood.

Politicians have ALWAYS 'swayed in the wind' of the voter’s content to hear what they want to hear. The problem's not the politicians, the banksters, Democrats, Republicans, the Fed... The problem is the wind. The Tea Party hasn't been hijacked, they're just part of the ever-changing wind pattern. The Tea Party failed b/c (like so many other movements) it itself put it's faith in politicians (like Palin, Bachmann...) instead of harnessing the power of their own wind.  America needs a HURICANE of change, not another weathervane politician.

As a Texan and American I understand and love Ron Paul.  But Ron’s problem is that in between making good sense he drifts into thoughts about seeing little green men under his bed (read: policies of immigration, drug reform, Middle East policy…).  A bit spooky, no?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:04 | 1684078 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

'Big Ron' has a minor problem: his foreign policy thoughts are idiotic. Love his economic views, but you can't be a flake on foreign policy and win the presidency.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:11 | 1684100 Internet Tough Guy
Internet Tough Guy's picture

Are you posting from Afghanistan or are you a hypocrite?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:40 | 1684214 Judge Holden
Judge Holden's picture

He's in the 101st Keyboard Brigade.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:44 | 1684236 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

Hey, PD Quig - foreign policy and domestic economic policy are the same thing, nitwit.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:48 | 1684257 clymer
clymer's picture

Hey PD - looks like you're good at spouting insults, but not so good at articulating 1.) an example of an idiotic Ron Paul foreign policy idea, and 2.) a good one of your own



Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:54 | 1684284 RemiG2010
RemiG2010's picture

You can, if you are a schizophrenic or if you have bipolar disorder. Pick one PD Quig has?!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:48 | 1684531 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

Hey, just because Paul buys into Al-Qaeda's justification for their attacks on us, is no reason to think him a fool, right?

You guys are religious zealots, not clear thinkers. Do I wish we would pull our troops out of countries around the world? To a great degree, yes, I agree with that. Unfortunately, his rationale plays right into the Islamofascist cant. If you are too stupid to believe that the jihadis would like do destroy us from without and from within--and that the reason for their actions is a fundamental antipathy to the principles of liberty (fucking DUH!)--then you're too stupid to be president of the United States.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:01 | 1684586 damage
damage's picture

Then why does Michael Scheuer the former head of the CIA's Bin Laden unit agree with him? Ron Paul's position was taken from Michael Scheuer's book.

What would you do differently?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:12 | 1684954 HL Shancken
HL Shancken's picture

"...The liberal mindset of the CIA has not only led to a long series of grave errors in judgment and gross misreadings of many international situations; it has also led it to hire large numbers of radicals into its ranks.  The extent of the damage done by such people can only be guessed, but a good idea of the dimensions can be gleaned from observing the behavior of the growing number of far-left ex-CIA employees running about in the anti-America movement today.


Leftists emerging from the shadows of the American intelligence community are of course nothing new.  The most famous postwar example was no doubt Daniel Ellsberg, who has spent his later years as a button man for the far Left.  Ellsberg, however, was never actually employed by the CIA, but by RAND.  Others, at least as radical as him, were.  Of those, the worst is arguably Philip Agee, who left the CIA and published the seditious Covert Action Information Bulletin, with the help of both the KGB and the Cuban DGI, a magazine dedicated to promoting "a worldwide campaign to destabilize the CIA through exposure of its operations and personnel."  Agee told Swiss journalist Peter Studer, “The CIA is plainly on the wrong side, that is, the capitalistic side. I approve KGB activities, communist activities in general. Between the overdone activities that the CIA initiates and the more modest activities of the KGB, there is absolutely no comparison.”  Today Agee runs a website from his home in Havana,, and is a dedicated communist.


In recent years, veterans of the CIA who were employed by the Agency have emerged as some of the most extremist bashers of America in the ”antiwar movement”.  One well-known example is Michael Scheuer, who anonymously penned Imperial Hubris, a book critical of the conduct of the war on terrorism since the mid-1990s.  Scheuer had been assigned to create a “bin Laden desk” at the CIA.  After resigning from the Agency, he went on a campaign against the US invasion of Iraq, warning that Moslems worldwide were growing to hate the US because of its “policies”, and in particular he blamed US support for Israel for anti-American terrorism.  He considers bin Laden to be a “great man”.



Former CIA agent Melvin Goodman holds roughly similar political opinions, claims the CIA is being used to recruit public opinion and undermine domestic opposition to Bush’s policies, and is similarly politically active and tied to leftist groups.  He denounces the CIA for its failure to predict the collapse of the Soviet Union, although gives no evidence that he had himself predicted any such collapse before it occurred.  Goodman also seems to endorse 9-11 conspiracy “theories”.  Appearing at Rep. Cynthia McKinney’s hearings, which featured panelists who posited theories on 9/11 ranging from the Twin Towers coming down as a result of a “controlled demolition” to the Pentagon being blown up deliberately and not partially destroyed by a hijacked aircraft, Goodman was quoted as saying about McKinney, “I hope someday her views will be considered conventional wisdom.”


Of those leftist ex-agents of the CIA who are publicly active in leftist policics, most are also openly anti-Semitic, with deep ties not only to radical leftist groups but also to neonazi and Holocaust Denial organizations and web sites; the most notable illustration is the husband-and-wife team of William and Kathleen Christison, to whom we will return shortly..."

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 17:23 | 1686230 saiybat
saiybat's picture

It would not be an exaggeration for me to say that this opinion article considers criticism of the CIA to be leftist or communist propganda. This is called guilt by association and circumstantial ad hominem; the argument is erroneous and would not be an opinion I'd adopt.

Ask yourself what is the difference between the opinion column of Steven Plaut the author of this article and Philip Agee's column that Plaut references to in his article. Is there any difference at all other than the ideologies that they sell? Steven Plaut of the Frontpagemag accuses Philip Agee of running a propagandist column but wouldn't this same way of reasoning also implicate Steven Plaut of doing the very same thing he accuses Philip Agee and many others of doing? It's something to think about. I see the artile as hypocrisy and maybe you won't see it the same way.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:33 | 1684787 dark_matter
dark_matter's picture

Anyone who uses the term "islamofascist" seriously has already drunk the neoconservative koolaid. I work with Iraqis (they are engineers and now US citizens) and it has been very educational. They hated Saddam. They also hate Al Qaeda. They also hate Donald Rumsfeld. Who do they think sees the situation most clearly? Ron Paul. Al Qaeda never would have gotten a toe hold in Iraq if not for the American invasion.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 15:56 | 1685887 Judge Holden
Judge Holden's picture

Exactly.  We're talking about a few hundred backwards angry impotent Muslims here.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 16:06 | 1685942 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

Islamofascist is a pretty apt, shorthand term for people who hang gays, perform clitorectomies on women, behead journalists, ban music, destroy other religion's holy places, and in general, kill indescriminately, and loathe freedom. If the term bothers you, then use whatever term might make you stop thinking of your personal devils, Dick Cheney et al, and address the reality of a movement that is insinuating itself into every country in the Middle East.

Oh yes, I know that they are really powerless and that I'm imagining their numbers, strength, and influence--the neocon that I must be for having the temerity to believe what I see with my own eyes instead of believing the fairy tale that you non-cons would have us accept. Your way has worked so well in Europe, hasn't it? As Europe ignores the danger in its very midst, the sharia law advocates win battle after battle in the courts. They won't have to do battle in Europe, the Europeans are committing slow suicide by reproductive failure and multiculi cultural flaccidity. In 50 years there will be no more European Europe--if it takes that long.

So, please quote to me the Arabist CIA line of thinking. After all, they have been such an effective organization over the past 50 years. The CIA needs to be disbanded and foreign intel turned over to the military--the only large governmental organization worth a shit in this country. The FBI can handle the internal intel job. And if you want to bury your head in the sand as to the existential threat posed by the jihadis, be my guest. I carry no water for either the Dems nor the GOP.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 18:52 | 1686505 Judge Holden
Judge Holden's picture

LOL LOL LOL You are such a sucker for biggoted propaganda.  Watch out those dirty Muslims (1% of the population) are going to overthrow your government and take over!!!!1  OMG Sharia law!  You small minded tool - you and people like you are a far greater threat to me and my freedom than some illiterate Jihadi living in a sewer in Pakistan.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 22:43 | 1687215 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

So far you have said nothing other than make some dipshit ad hominem attack on me. Typical lefty: when you have no argument, foam at the mouth.


Tue, 09/20/2011 - 00:53 | 1687644 Judge Holden
Judge Holden's picture

I've long given up trying to debate biggoted chickenhawks/cowards like you as you're completely irrational AND ignorant of history.  Anyone who still worries about "Islamofacism" after 10 years of devastation wrought by the War on Terror (6,000 US soldiers dead, 100,000's of innocent Iraqis/Afghani civilians dead, TRILLIONS of dollars spent, increased state surveillance of citizens) is beyond saving.

In other news... OMG look out, I overheard some new intel about how the #2 in AQ just announced that they were going to implement Sharia in New York!!!  RUN!!!!!!!!!!!

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 11:32 | 1688930 dark_matter
dark_matter's picture

You make many points. I will address but two.

Fascists (like Mussolini an Hitler) worked for the fusion of government and industry. Mussolini said fascism = corporatism. Does this apply to the Islamic world. No. As for people who for people who "hang gays, perform clitorectomies on women, behead journalists, ban music, destroy other religion's holy places, and in general, kill indescriminately, and loathe freedom", maybe the islamoinquisitionists would be better a better term.

Second, you call islam an existential threat. This may be true in Europe but it is not their presence there that causes it but the low European birth rate. This is what happened in ancient Rome. The original Romans didn't want to have kids because it cramped their social life. Eventually the Senate was filled with the descendants of slaves. The same thing may happen in the US but it won't be Islam that takes over. From what I see it will be Mexican and Asian immigrants. I don't make this as a racist statement, just an observable fact. To call Islam an existential threat to the US is ridiculous.

And finally, I mentioned my Iraqi acquaintances. Americans have no idea what Iraq was like pre-Iraq war (I mean the first one under George I). My friend describes it as a wonderful place. Education was free and pretty good. The college girls wore mini-skirts. Health care was free. People cared about each other. You could visit friends any time, day or night and be cordially received. You could swim in the river. Vegetables were cheap and plentiful. Homelessness didn't exist. People loved Americans. If your sister was mistreated by her husband, the brothers and cousins beat the crap out of her husband insuring it wouldn't happne again. Saddam was a ruthless dictator but if you didn't oppose him you could have a good life (and BTW treatment of dissidents under the American regime is no different that treatement under Saddam). Their society had many admiral qualities we would be wise to emulate. Of course the wonderful place he describes is gone and most of their families have come to the US. They hated Saddam but they don't see Saddam as the despoiler of their country.





Mon, 09/19/2011 - 17:03 | 1686163 SteveNYC
SteveNYC's picture

"...the reason for their actions is a fundamental antipathy to the principles of liberty"

Dumbest. Line. Ever. It is barely possible to fathom the stupidity in this comment. A soundbite George "hate us for our freedom" Bush would have been proud of.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:16 | 1684111 Beau Tox
Beau Tox's picture

Interventionists Ready a Media Lynching for Ron Paul

by Michael Scheuer

The past ten days have seen a spate of pieces on Google News damning Congressman Ron Paul for “blaming” America for the 9/11 attacks. This is just the start of what will become a wave of ever-more shrill and lie-filled attacks on Mr. Paul as long as he is seeking the Republican presidential nomination and continues to find growing public support. The attacks on Mr. Paul are and will be the work of the Neoconservatives, the Israel-First fifth column of U.S. citizens, and AIPAC and those it controls in the Congress, media, and academy.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:02 | 1684926 baby_BLYTHE
baby_BLYTHE's picture

Scheuer has ballz of steel! We are lucky to have an insider with his kind of knowledge putting it all out on the line for us.

Michael Scheuer- Israel Is Spying On The U.S., Stealing Technology & Bribing CONgress

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:34 | 1684157 RemiG2010
RemiG2010's picture


Thanks to current "smart" foreign policy, US balance-sheet is in deep red and what's more important is losing hearts and minds of other nations! That's the two "not important" at all, long term national security issues! Very f**king smart! Now repeat after me: NU-CU-LAR!


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:32 | 1684181 Judge Holden
Judge Holden's picture

Yeah - I can't believe that when you bomb other people, they try to bomb you back.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:43 | 1684231 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

I see.  You must be in the military then...front lines, right?  If not, I suggest you make your way to the recruiting station immediately.  I'll give you a ride if needed.

I love the anti-RPP posts claiming RP's foreign policy views are "idiotic" - these folks openly admit war is the most important issue for them.  How sad.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:42 | 1684504 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

If by front line you mean the arm-chair in front of Fox News. Yes.  If by front line you refer to the demagogy of The Rising Nationalism. Yes.

It would take a very deranged nitwit, or new recruit, to be actual military front line and Ra-Ra-Boom-boom! this mess they call foreign policy..

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:54 | 1684285 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Have you volunteered to go bleed in the sand and apply what you think our foreign policy should be or are you just yakkin?

Blowback is a bitch.

The troops overwhelmingly support Ron.  They want to come home.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:59 | 1684305 kridkrid
kridkrid's picture

This is also by design.  PD Quig is simply regurgitating that talking point provided to him.  It's the cover being provided to those who get all of their news through Fox (a relatively large % of the registered republicans).  Watch and listen to enough of Fox and you'll clearly see the strategy.  Don't ever address an issue, say something like, "Actually, Sean, I think any of the candidates would do right by America vs. the marxist currently occupying the white house... except for that Ron Paul guy... he's out there".  That was an interview with Dick Morris. 

It's about emotion.  If they come back asking for more... tell them that we can't let Iran get a nuke.... that'll be as deep as they need to go on the issue.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:01 | 1684312 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Actually RP is pretty's his ideas that are big. That's his minor problem - they may be too big for the electorate.  I think you've proved that point. A solvent America shrinks its' militaries' mandate down to defense from empire. That(plus gold is real $) is his 'economic view' chumly...were you out having a smoke when God was giving out brains? 

As for your hambone thesis, it's been disproved  already... the current White House Squatter in Chief is nothing more than a flake of dandruff on the scalp of the Golem. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:40 | 1684492 pazmaker
pazmaker's picture

Why is non-interventionism bad foreign policy?  Please elaborate

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:45 | 1684514 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

I used to think his foreign policy was over-the-top, but have come to see he is correct. There is so much we do not know, but the CIA/military has had their hands in some dirty operations, made many enemies for its citizens, and been responsible for a big chunk of our debt.  Many in the military have noble intentions, but they are pawns.  Give me a logical reason we went into Libya? 

When we are unable to buy petrol with dollars our military might will be severely compromised....and then we will get invaded.  The military industrial complex is out of control.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 16:01 | 1685911 falun bong
falun bong's picture

Sorry, it's our current policy that is the "flake" not RP. 700 bases in 100 countries? 70,000 troops in Germany? Um, remind me who the enemy is in Germany again?

These bases and America's arrogant attitude just piss off the people of the world. Americans are clueless how much they are disliked around the world. And RP has it right, again: "How would we feel if China decided to open a military base in California or Texas?" Think about it before you respond.

If you stopped pissing off the world then perhaps you wouldn't need to spend 37% of every tax dollar on the military.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 20:38 | 1686860 SimplePrinciple
SimplePrinciple's picture

82 negative to one positive should kinda get you thinking, no?  Ron Paul's economic policy and foreign policy are the same.  Trade as you will, but avoid entangling alliances.  Other countries have no entitlements from the USA, nor we from them.  Following this policy is fiscally prudent and, because it cuts down on debt to China and other foreign nations, a very reasonable stategy of self defense.  Avoid provocation and avoid indebtedness.  Nothing flaky about that.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:18 | 1684109 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

that's exactly right. Please see my comments below about Ron.

He's had thirty plus years in his House of Representative position.

First he spewed about the IRS and simplified 10% taxes - accomplishments? Zero.

Last few years it's all about the Federal Reserve. Accomplishments - nothing.

I've read all his books and agree 100% with him. But he is what he is. Talk talk talk, but not able to make things happen. Zero .

Most Libertarians have all the right ideas. However, it has to be their way or the highway. They can't stand anyone disagreeing with their philosophy and from my experience, they expect someone else to do the dirty work.

I know a real intelligent passinate Libertarian. He's waiting for anarchy, but I doubt he'll ever raise a pitchfork. Talks big, and cannot tolerate dissenting points of view.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:02 | 1684217 clymer
clymer's picture

Gee. He seems to tolerate his fellow subcomittee members fairly "tolerantly".. What the fuck can he be expected to do with fellow subcomitee members who dismiss his guest testimony with these kind of bullshit accusations? Ron Paul is the answer.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:45 | 1684245 Inspector Bird
Inspector Bird's picture

I agree, Ron Paul's accomplishments are few.

But is that the gauge of measurement?  He's one man swimming against a tide of lemmings leaping off a cliff!  How can you expect him to convince 200+ other Congressmen who are being paid off to change their minds?


What you can't deny is Ron's impact on the discussion and his ability to change language in committee.  He's been very useful there - and while he has few accomplishments with his name on them, he has plenty of bills that are at least altered for the better because of his presence.

I don't view Ron winning as a "must have".  I view his running as a "absolutely necessary".  Why?  Because without Ron Paul, Perry doesn't declare the Fed to be the bastion of ill behavior that it is (though I'd stop short of treason), and the rest of the candidates don't jump on the "Social Security is a Ponzi scheme" bandwagon.  In addition, while his foreign policy views don't mesh with mine, by asking for a full withdrawal of all troops, Paul has set the stage for negotiation - and reduction of our military obligations world wide.  This is an absolute must have in the next presidency.  We cannot have a presence in places like Okinawa or Tajikistan.  It's not necessary, it's expensive, and there is no benefit to the US.  'Full withdrawal' that gets us 50% at the end of the day?  Sounds like a win to me.

As for Libertarians who can't tolerate other views?  Sounds like Krugman, too, doesn't it?  Every group has an idiot who is intolerant.  The nice thing about most Libertarians is that we do admit one thing - opinions are available for everyone and we don't have to agree.  The Libertarian view, by opening up markets, is fine with dissenting opinions, as long as they operate within the market and the principles of freedom without abrogating individual rights.

Other points of view, like Socialism, do NOT tolerate opposing views.  They can't survive with ambitious individual actors.  Libertarianism is fine with communist thought at a micro level.  If you and 20 friends form a commune, more power to you - just don't force it on people.


Ron has improved the discussion of the candidates at a time when it is most needed.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:51 | 1684551 Blano
Blano's picture

"I agree, Ron Paul's accomplishments are few."

Like him or not, one could probably have said the same thing about Lincoln.  So it's not impossible.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:07 | 1684941 IQ 101
IQ 101's picture

Passinate? please.You even spell like a Democrat.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:52 | 1684044 UGrev
UGrev's picture

Cue rabid, anti ron paul, sheeple posts.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:57 | 1684047 gojam
gojam's picture

Oh dear!

I can't say I liked this article.

I like Hemingway's books. I've read them all many times.

Hemingway quotes, a painting of christ, Simon and Garfunkel lyrics, a photo of a lion on a beach, Joe Di Magio and Ron Paul, it's all just too much.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:52 | 1684048 Robslob
Robslob's picture

I just teared a little.


I look at Ron Paul and pray for the calvary to arrive....the calvary is us.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:05 | 1684083 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Agreed.  Get to know Ron Paul's real stance on issues (available at his campaign website), show yourself as a Ron Paul supporter, help build support by answering questions, build support one American at a time.  I bought 50 bumper stickers from his website, my goal is to find 50 new supporters for Ron Paul before the primary willing to let others know that they too support Ron Paul. This is the last shot, so we need to pull out all the stops.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:48 | 1684260 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

Mike,  RP bumper stickers , way to go. And anarchy bumper stickers too?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:55 | 1684563 Shell Game
Shell Game's picture

Bumper stickers are good.  Another great way to pull out all stops is to go to and find your local Campaign for Liberty and Ron Paul meet ups.  They are active locally and nationally in building Ron Paul awarenss AND in fighting things like Agenda 21, Audit/Abolish the Fed, education reform, police heavy-handedness, etc..

These groups are growing, Quinn is right, Ron Paul has already won.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:09 | 1684097 Beau Tox
Beau Tox's picture

NO! RobSlob.  Calvary is the hill where the Lord was crucified!

You might be able to bugle for the cavalry, if you could just spell it.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:04 | 1684326 sharkbait
sharkbait's picture

Thank you!  You beat me to the punch.  Calvary, cavalry, calvary, cavalry.  Practcie it a few times and you will get it right.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:52 | 1684873 Ckierst1
Ckierst1's picture

I suggest that if the cavalry (us) doesn't form up as a posse to help Ron Paul clean up this mess, then we will likely wind up on Calvary (hung separately, to steal from Ben Franklin) when we rise against the PTB after discovering that we are no more than sheeple (for economic fleecing) and cannon fodder (as Starship Stupers).  I don't know that we will have many more ops to right this nation and we better take advantage of the ones we do get.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:20 | 1684126 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

agreed, we are the calvary. But Ron is not the leader. He is the pulpit and does a good job talking.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:37 | 1684197 DirtMerchant
DirtMerchant's picture

He does a good job speaking? You have obviously never seen him speak, his downfall is his inability to speak smooth and charismatically.

I'm a donating supporter of Mr Paul and firmly believe in the message he conveys but if you are going to slam him, you should probably view and listen to him first.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:52 | 1684049 eazyas
eazyas's picture

I remember Barry saying all the right things on his election campaign, then only to do a 360 when he got elected .

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:55 | 1684056 spankthebernank
spankthebernank's picture

This has been Ron Paul's message for a long time.  Not a flash in the pan like Barry.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:04 | 1684081 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

I remember Barry saying all the right things on his election campaign, then only to do a 360 when he got elected .

You must not have been paying close attention to his campaign.  For anyone who was, he's doing exactly what could have been expected.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:12 | 1684095 PD Quig
PD Quig's picture

Yeah, and the dipshits that didn't investigate his past (Rezko, Ayers, Wright, his voting record, his recorded statements, how he fucked his mentor to shove her aside in Illinois)...those people were idiots--they were not 'fooled.'

When you're a real grown-up, you watch what people DO, not what they SAY to draw your conclusions. Otherwise, you're just a fool. And 53.6% of the voters that showed up in 2008 were either ideologues that knew what he wanted to do to this country and were in favor of it...or were fucking fools.

Likely both.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:31 | 1684179 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

That is what Marxist do, LIE!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:52 | 1684278 DosZap
DosZap's picture


Hell son, that's standard procedure except this time we got a Foreigner as potus, and and communist.

Other than those two small discrepancies, same ole same ole.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:55 | 1684293 clymer
clymer's picture

The difference is, Ron Paul wasn't raised by a family employed by the company and foundations, didn't get hist first job out of college from Henry Kissinger, Wasn't handled by Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski, and didn't have to change his name from Barry Soetoro, or hide his college transcripts, let alone the fact that he was an Indonesian citizen, and likely was born in Kenya

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:13 | 1684352 theMAXILOPEZpsycho
theMAXILOPEZpsycho's picture

Thats 180 if you mean he changed his tune...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:53 | 1684052 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

The government's one and only job is to preserve liberty for the citizenry.  The paradox, of course, is that the same government stands as the biggest threat to said liberty.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:54 | 1684054 WallStreetClass...'s picture

The problem with Ron Paul and "libertarians" is that they negate to acknowledge the wide spread corruption of corporate mega-cartels. In fact, they seem to have a blind spot for this sort of thing altogether. As if we all started to behave "like is says in the Kuntstitushin" the corporate pigs and bankers would finally leave us alone. Like I always said, the libertarians must be anarchists who went to a trade school. Lol

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:51 | 1684084 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

That is the biggest crock of unsubstantiated horse puckey I have read in a long time. Thanks for the laugh. 

Prior to the libertarian Tea Party being hijacked by the establishment neoconservatives, it was the TARP bailout that really brought many of us to the forefront.  The opposition to the TARP payout was a direct result of the realization that Wall Street and its' cronies had utilized the regulatory structure specificaly for their advantage.  TARP was the expense of this corporate corruption. 

The crony and captured regulatory system, advocated by liberals and Bush conservative types alike, was the harbinger of the collapse of the fiat currency structure at the behest of regulations set forth by the one-party econmoic fascist system. 

Quite frankly, it WAS the corrupt Capital Hill/Mega-Corporations that that pushed the last thumb out of the leaking levee. 

I could take time to pull up some quotes to back this up, but I am sure of your Google abilities.  Just type in "Ron Paul crony capitalism" and you can read all you want.  Or not.  Monday night football is tonight baby.  GO TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:50 | 1684541 DeltaDawn
DeltaDawn's picture

So who you voting for? 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:23 | 1684091 bob_dabolina
bob_dabolina's picture

Walk to the edge of the building now

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:52 | 1684554 WallStreetClass...'s picture

tell it to the roofing guy below...or may as well join

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:09 | 1684094 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Libertarians understand that when you shrink .gov.  You shrink purchase-able favors.  That weakens the mega-cartels.


Take some critical thinking classes.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:19 | 1684122 WallStreetClass...'s picture

Mega-cartels don't purchase favors as a prevalent business model. They engage in dirty politics because they captured the government. But they grow by acquisition, fraud and monopoly. If government is weakened, the mega cartels grow stronger not weaker. But I am through schooling you mental midgets. Just stick your heads deeper into the sand and scream Constitution! Useful idiots...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:38 | 1684203 Ricky Bobby
Ricky Bobby's picture

Yes grow the state, let the Apparatchiks rule. After all they have been trained in our finest Ivy League schools. Bureaucracy top to bottom that is the way to true freedom. Submit, accept your fate you are here only to serve the collective.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:05 | 1684334 WallStreetClass...'s picture

Take off the tin foil hat. You people are crazy. Did I say grow bureaucracy or grow the state? I suggest lean and smart regulatory function, without revolving door policies. You throw around words like "apparatchiks" without clear understanding of their meaning. I was born and lived in Russia and fools like you crack me up. No wonder you are in such deep shyte.

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 10:27 | 1688616 pops
pops's picture

So you grew up without a Constitution to defend.  Pity.  Without it, we're all naked apes clawing and biting for our "place."


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:44 | 1684240 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

And what happens when you have no .gov to turn to when your latest fraud comes to light???


And what monopolies exist that do not have the blessing of .gov?


Your education is non-existent.  As is your critical thinking power.


The mega-cartels grow weaker as they will no longer be able to crush competition.  They will no longer be able to regulate their competitors to death.  Moron.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:51 | 1684336 WallStreetClass...'s picture

So they'll buy them. You'll have one or two banks, one or two utilities, etc etc etc. You are indeed a moron. This is why I exrapolate my findings to say that most people who like Ron Paul are M-O-R-O-N-S.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:27 | 1684754 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

So you agree then that no monopolies exist right now.

But didn't anyone ever tell you, that high margins breed competition?


Have no fear about monopolies, or other boogey men that your protector .gov has convinced you to be afraid of.

Don't you worry, .gov will keep you safe!  BwahaHAHAHAHAHAHA

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:47 | 1684859 WallStreetClass...'s picture

Surely they exist now. Look at Wall Street or Consolidated Media. It's not an either-or world, your thinking is so primitive it's beyond funny. Ron Paul somehow attracts failings like you. People who can't walk and chew gum at the same time. But enough of that, you must have a hard life as it is.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 12:31 | 1685058 Mr Shush
Mr Shush's picture

Large concentrations of power, public or private sector, are inherently dangerous. My suggestion would be a rate of corporation tax that varied (continuously, not discretely as tends to be the case with income taxes) based on some measure of size (12 month average market cap, turnover, market share - not 100% sure what the best proxy to use would be), coupled with reduced and simplified regulation (regulation is always more damaging to small players than large) and an end to all corporate bailouts.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:24 | 1684149 SerfDude
SerfDude's picture

What does this thing you wrote even mean?

they negate to acknowledge

I guess you didn't even go to trade school. Fuzzy writing/fuzzy thinking.

Allow me to quote you: 


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:50 | 1684540 WallStreetClass...'s picture

Allow me to quote your handle, serf...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:42 | 1684212 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

"libertarians must be anarchists who went to a trade school"

Congratulations, WallStreetAss. That wins the award for Snottiest & Most Snobbishly Idiotic Comment ever posted on ZH.

I myself dropped out of useless college and graduated from a trade school. In the 38 years since then, I've built more houses, added more value and done more back-breaking work than any 50 self-absorbed Kollege Kids like your pompous self.

You have contempt for the guy who put the roof on your house. You think you're smarter, better educated, wiser and worth more than he. You're mistaken on all counts. It was me.

To imply that Ron Paul is just an "anarchist who went to trade school" after what you just read of his life is pathetically blind and stupid.

Or more likely, you didn't even read the article.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:48 | 1684529 WallStreetClass...'s picture

I don't have contempt for a guy who puts the roof. I have contempt for a guy who puts the roof and thinks he has the right ideas about economics. See the difference? Probably not, so stick to the roofing. ;-)

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 20:24 | 1686799 Imminent Crucible
Imminent Crucible's picture

You "have contempt for a guy who puts the roof and thinks he has the right ideas about economics"?

Because a guy who can read a blueprint couldn't possibly also read von Mises, Hazlitt & Rothbard or grasp Menger's theory of marginal utility?

It's not every day I see an empty suit worn by a horse's ass.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:58 | 1684299 clymer
clymer's picture

Boy are you clueless. It's all we fucking talk about. You might want to tune in more often so you have an informed opinion (please hire me to replace your roof please please please)

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:15 | 1684664 WallStreetClass...'s picture

so now you want me to be your job creator? lol

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 16:06 | 1685922 clymer
clymer's picture

Perhaps you need someone with technical skills to show you how to size up a .gif image of a small penis so you can attach your photo to your moniker? Fuck, i'll do it for free. Shoot me your login passwd.


(btw -are you upmodding your own posts? pathetic)

Tue, 09/20/2011 - 10:19 | 1688577 pops
pops's picture

After the dust settles from the SHTF, those who went to trade school will feed their families.  Those who went to law school will starve.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:55 | 1684058 ArkansasAngie
ArkansasAngie's picture

He needs to jump on the financial crime bandwagon.  It's the one topic nobody is talking about in the MSM and at which voters are anxious to hear about.



Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:18 | 1684118 UGrev
UGrev's picture

fuck off

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:56 | 1684062 Corn1945
Corn1945's picture

Ron Paul can never win because he represents real solutions to the problems. The voters will run the other way once they hear what is really requierd to steer the ship from the rocks.

Voters don't really want the problems fixed because they want pain. They want to be lied to. That's why we are in this mess with no end or hope in sight.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:11 | 1684099 raki_d
raki_d's picture

Real solutions like bringing back the gold standard?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:28 | 1684164 Killtruck
Killtruck's picture

I've heard this criticism of the gold standard spewed out before, "oh, how will THAT work?" "oh, what a stupid idea." "Oohhh, we're all going to die if you do that."

Fact is, you CAN go back to the gold standard when market conditions allow. You can't just pull the trigger on it today, but when the market supports it, you can step onto the gold standard bus fairly easily.

Learn something about it, please.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:15 | 1684360 theMAXILOPEZpsycho
theMAXILOPEZpsycho's picture

A gold standard whould be terrible - it would come with some kind of gold confiscation. No, what we need is just for government to shrink away and stop trying to control money; let the people use whatever they want for payment.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:11 | 1684628 raki_d
raki_d's picture

Gold standard is for gold bugs !!
Let the excess credit/ leverage shrink !!!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:40 | 1684216 DirtMerchant
DirtMerchant's picture

attrition says we are already moving to a gold standard, it's just not backing our currency.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:08 | 1684063 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Ron Paul is the only man I could vote for without having to swallow down an urge to be sick.

Why anyone would vote for platitude-spouting monkeys like Bush, McCain, Obama, Palin, and Bachmann is beyond me.

I keep hearing voters complaining about the quality of politicians. Well, here is a REAL man of integrity, who understands economics and the deleterious nature of our foreign policy, and the average voter is terrified of him.

Let's face it - the average person just wants a bigger slice of the pie. And they'll vote in the person whom they think is most likely to deliver it.

A majoritarian democracy is only as good as its voters...

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:58 | 1684064 Sizzurp
Sizzurp's picture

He is the only candidate advocating real reforms.  The rest are for the status quo. Does he have a chance of winning? Send him some money, vote for him and find out!!

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:08 | 1684065 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

I like many things that Ron Paul stands for.

However, he is a career politician.

And how has he built a consensus through the years, and shown leadership? He hasn't. A maverick can be a leader. But Ron is not a leader to make things happen.

Show me the types of things he has accomplished?

Sure, he gets on his pulpit and spews excellent Libertarian philosophy while sucking on his Federal paycheck , his retirement and his health care benefits.

If he returned most of his Federal salary through these 30+ years, wouldn't that be putting his money where his mouth is?

Same as Uncle Warren Buffet - sure raise the taxes for the rich he spews, but you don't see him donating. Buffet damn well knows that the Republicans won't pass it. All fucking politics. Not honest and straight up.

So you Ron Paul die hard fans, you probably don't like this message. That's OK. But just think about Ron's accomplishments through his Fed career. Ron is highly intelligent. And he knows reality. He knows that he won't be the one to make his philosophy happen, and I believe deep down inside he knows he is not a leader. Also, who has he groomed to take his congressional position in Lake Jackson??? It's been all about Ron and his pulpit for years. I recall in his early days in the 70's and 80's, he was all about simplified IRS taxes. Never happened, but he sucked on that dogma for years and got the votes. But just words, words, words, words. Nothing done.

It's one thing to spew, it's another thing to make things happen. Ron Paul is no leader. He is an honorable man and speaks his mind. But consensus builder and leadership, bullshit.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:10 | 1684098 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

How does one get consensus when surrounded by evil?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:30 | 1684174 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

Reply: Leadership to make change happen. That is how to build consensus. He's had thirty plus years. Think about it.

If he couldn't do it, then he needed to move on and support someone who could. Instead, he just stayed in his House Rep position and spewed.

All I am saying is that Ron has the right ideas, but he can't lead.

Go ahead, give me a negative vote. It's scary how Ron Paul supporters can't handle any type of criticism about their man.

It's just the truth. He is a very good spokeman for Libertarian viewpoints. But making things happen, NOT.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 11:30 | 1684773 Dangertime
Dangertime's picture

Nice straw man you have built there.


I recognize his weaknesses, I am merely replying that any leader will not be able to rally a corrupt and paid-for political entity.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:30 | 1684101 Alvaro de Esteban
Alvaro de Esteban's picture

Why do you have a so high consideration about "consensus"?

Consensus is one of the main things have driven to this mess elsewhere

Each time politicians reach consensus you have to watch your wallet

Please less consensus & more common sense


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:13 | 1684102 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

What Washington politician has "accomplished" anything?

Go, on, scour that entire wasteland, and drag over to me one febrile, feckless, fuckmonkey that has done anything of note, and I will EAT MT HAT, live, on the computer.

It is notable that while doing all of jack-shit, the rest of the SFB politicians refuse to stand up and REFUSE to say NO...

So, I guess Ron Paul has, even if in an entirely negative sense, (cue tragic irony) accomplished something, which is more than I can say for the rest of that execrable gang of wretched sidulators.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:27 | 1684153 Sands8oo
Sands8oo's picture

@ Soul Train (I'll refrain from degrading profanity laced nickname)

You obviously didnt read most of the article... like the part about Ron Paul giving up his Federal pension because he believes it to be unconstitutional.

Of course, we should probably expect as much from someone like yourself... probably paid to come on this board and attempt to tarnish the reputation of a man who's life has been spent in a noble attempt to bring some goodness back to a nation that has been completely de-railed in that regard... It was really the whole point of the article if you go back and actually read it.

Who knows, you might even learn something.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:37 | 1684198 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

Sands, in reply, OK - I stand corrected about the pension.

I've supported Ron Paul's views since the 70's. He was on the 10% simplifed IRS high horse during that whole time.


I would vote for him this next election. It's mostly a protest vote, because I abhor Federal politicians.

Get rid of your hate and intolerance.  It makes supporters of Libertarians (like me) lose face.


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 10:29 | 1684430 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

If you read the article, you would begin to understand that it's not about Ron Paul as a politician, or about a Ron Paul Presidency.  It's about a man giving himself over to a cause that he somewhere along the way has realized will probably overwhelm him, if not kill him outright (JFK)>

There was another RP some years ago who took a run at the White House and backed down when the sharks circled round. That was a logical and forgiveable decision. Like heading home when too far out to sea.  If you could stop your dissing of this RP for a second long enough to see it, that's the whole point of what the author seeks to say. 

He thinks that Ron Paul will travel the whole distance, without fear, for reason of 'honor' not power.  Read the quote 

“The most basic principle to being a free American is the notion that we as individuals are responsible for our own lives and decisions."

You don't like the idea, fine.  But don't diss Paul for being a politician, nor for lack of results.  Look in the mirror and ask yourself where that guy stopped holding the line. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:36 | 1684192 eftian
eftian's picture

He has delivered 4000 babies, is that an accomplishment normal for a career politician?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 08:59 | 1684069 snowball777
snowball777's picture

“Every man’s life ends the same way. It is only the details of how he lived and how he died that distinguish one man from another.”

Hemingway blew his own brains out...not exactly bravery or poise, but a fitting metaphor for Paul's campaign nonetheless.

Deification is, at its heart, an abdication of personal responsibility.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:01 | 1684072 Yamaha
Yamaha's picture

Ideas - how correct he is. More than has been said by Obama in 3 years.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:01 | 1684073 crosey
crosey's picture

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Mohandas Ghandi 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:19 | 1684123 Comay Mierda
Comay Mierda's picture

Then you put them in jail

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:02 | 1684075 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

September 2011, and Quinn has already retired the "Lion on the Beach"? Campaigns are not about beginnings, they are a battle over time whose resolution is found in a final tally of votes. He would rather use the media to decide?

Quinn, you are just another totalitarian tool, attempting to puncture and deflate the hopes of those that prize liberty. Hemingway would have shot your ass full of salt shot and gone back to the real business of living.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:05 | 1684077 HL Shancken
HL Shancken's picture

From ABC News with George Stephanolpoulous, July 9:


Stephanopoulous pressed Paul on his calls for immediate withdrawal of the troops from Iraq, saying, “Don’t we have a responsibility to those we leave behind?”


“It’s a tragedy of what’s happening, what we’re going to leave behind,” replied Paul. “But we don’t know it’s going to be as bad as those who are predicting bad things — just remember, the people who are predicting these very, very dire things to happen are the same ones who predicted it would be a cakewalk. … Think of Vietnam. It worked out much better than anybody predicted.”


An estimated 2 million Cambodians and over 1 million South Vietnamese were brutally slaughtered by the Communists after the pull-out of American forces in the Spring of 1975. Apparently, the Congressman from Texas does not believe that was such a big deal.

As Paul says above, the pull-out from Vietnam “worked out much better than anybody predicted.”

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:14 | 1684106 BigJim
BigJim's picture

And how many died as a result of our getting involved in the first place? And would have died if we'd remained?

We can pull out now in an orderly fashion... or we can leave precipitously when our empire collapses. Which do you think will work out better for all concerned?

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:15 | 1684107 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

 “Don’t we have a responsibility to those we leave behind?”

Did the American people invade Iraq? Did the American people invade Vietnam? 

No. Our children were slaughtered and maimed, so that corporations and bankers could profit. There was no threat to America. To place blame on The People for the actions of a Kleptocracy is the biggest lie. The people responsible have never been responsible- they have always counted theiir billions and contented themselves on their avarice.

Vietnam now has an active, productive economy and stable government. This was not the prediction of the warmongers at the time. He has lived long enough to know that. 

You on the other hand, are just a mindless twit, incapable of understanding the historical perspective. If America had stayed out of Vietnam, those people would have never died. 

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:18 | 1684119 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

What a moronic argument.  And just how many were killed because of the war in the first place?  How many Americans starved during the same period as resources and funding were diverted to the industrial military complex?  You could go on and on and on with millions of "what ifs" and you will end up right back were you started.  It all begins and ends with liberty and individual responsibility.  Wake the fuck up retard, Nature makes no promises regarding your survival.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:25 | 1684152 no2foreclosures
no2foreclosures's picture

About the 2 million Cambodians killed the Khmer Rouge: Their raise to power was effected by the illegal and secret bombing of Cambodia by Nixon and Kissinger.  How about the millions of third-generation Vietnameses still suffering from the horrendous effects of Agent Orange.

You are a Yankee kool-aid drinking idiot.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:04 | 1684079 Zola
Zola's picture

Very good piece of litterature. This is what unfortunately many sheeps dont understand. Ron Paul will be remembered along the lines of the American Founding fathers. The pathetic crop of current politicans on the right and the left will vanish into the dustbins of history.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:12 | 1684080 Mercury
Mercury's picture

Ron Paul’s life is a shining example of grace under pressure. He has single handedly battled his great fish (Big Government, Big Finance, Big Military) for four decades with no helpers and many detractors.

Now that's a lotta leviathan.

I think we're gonna need a bigger boat...  (or tent, as it were).

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:05 | 1684082 Karmaisking
Karmaisking's picture

Incredibly beautiful, heart-felt ode to a great man.

Bravo for posting this.

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:23 | 1684138 Eugend66
Eugend66's picture

I second that !

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:25 | 1684140 Eugend66
Eugend66's picture


Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:06 | 1684086 the not so migh...
the not so mighty maximiza's picture

He is up against blood suckers.  He has to start targeting his opponents and showing them up for what they are.  His positions are already well known but he has to start engaging his opponents tactically and strategically if he really wants to win.  Maybe he should start eating more red meat or something.  He needs to fight hard to win.  All of this is beneath him probably but if he wants to win he must do this.  

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:07 | 1684088 eddiebe
eddiebe's picture

Long live Ron Paul !

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:07 | 1684090 Wakanda
Wakanda's picture

Ron Paul will win the Republican nomination.  It is the only way the federal government (read ponzi) can collapse into itself with any sense of order.

Disagree with me?  Meet me here:

Mon, 09/19/2011 - 09:42 | 1684226 Soul Train
Soul Train's picture

I hope Ron Paul does win the Republican election.

He's not a leader, but he sure will get the message out.


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