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Guest Post: Paul Krugman’s Mis-Characterization Of The Gold Standard

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada,

With a price hovering around $1,600 an ounce and the prospect of “additional monetary accommodation” hinted to in the latest meeting of the Federal Reserve’s Federal Open Market Committee, gold is once again becoming a hot topic of discussion.

George Soros made news recently when a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission revealed that he had liquidated his position with major financial firms and had loaded up on gold; approximately 884,000 shares worth.  Jim Cramer, the CNBC personality in constant search of growing business trends, recommends putting at least 20% of one’s assets in gold.  Following the Republican National Convention, the party platform now proposes the establishment of a commission to study “the feasibility of a metallic basis for U.S. currency.”

Like the gold commission before it, this new interest in gold has brought out the critics who regard the precious metal as nothing short of, to borrow the infamous term coined by John M. Keynes, a “barbarous relic.”  Wesleyan University economist Richard Grossman writes in the Los Angeles Times that the idea of a gold commission is a “waste of time and money” because the standard hasn’t “worked for 100 years.”  In The Atlantic, fiat currency enthusiast Matthew O’Brien calls the gold standard a “terrible idea” and presents a few charts demonstrating that linking the dollar to gold failed to keep prices stable.  Economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman has praised O’Brien’s article on his blog and makes sure to point out that the price of gold has been highly volatile since 1968 by showing the following chart:


There is a remarkably widespread view that at least gold has had stable purchasing power. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Krugman points out that when interest rates are low the price of gold typically rises.  He claims that as interest rates tend to fall during recessions, gold’s rise in price would lead to “a fall in the general price level.”  Lastly, Krugman ridicules the notion that a true gold standard would prevent asset bubbles and subsequent busts from occurring by calling attention to the fact that America suffered from financial panics “in 1873, 1884, 1890, 1893, 1907, 1930, 1931, 1932, and 1933.”

These criticisms, while containing empirical data, are grossly deceptive.  The information provided doesn’t support Krugman’s assertions whatsoever.  Instead of utilizing sound economic theory as an interpreter of the data, Krugman and his Keynesian colleagues use it to prove their claims.  Their methodological positivism has lead them to fallacious conclusions which just so happen to support their favored policies of state domination over money.  The reality is that not only has gold held its value over time, those panics which Krugman refers to occurred because of government intervention; not the gold standard.

Right off the bat, the Nobel Laureate makes the amateur mistake of conflating two different gold standards.  There was not one set standard throughout the 19th century up to the Great Depression.  Until the first World War, the United States and much of the West was under the classical gold standard.  This meant that the dollar was just a name for a set amount of gold; generally 1/20 of an ounce.  Following the massive inflation used to pay for World War I and the Genoa Conference of 1922, the gold exchange standard was adopted by many Western countries including Britain.  Though the United States remained under an imperfect classical gold standard, other Western countries stopped redeeming gold coins for national currencies.  Instead, they redeemed their currencies for dollars or pounds which allowed for expanded fiscal policies because the constraint of gold was not so prominent.  At the same time, President of the New York Federal Reserve, Benjamin Strong, conspired with the head of the Bank of England, Montague Norman, to keep gold from flowing out of Britain by having the Fed adopt “easy money conditions in the United States” and “increase bank liquidity a great deal” according to economic historian Robert Higgs.  This backroom deal was carried out as England readopted the gold standard in 1926 at the pre-World War 1 parity despite the pound being devalued during the war.  Because trade unions and unemployment insurance made wage rates less flexible downwards, the ensuing deflation was detrimental and combated through further inflation aided and abetted by the Fed.

This new international agreement between central bankers may have appeared to be a maintaining of the classical gold standard but it was nothing of the sort.  The inflationary boom in the later half of the 1920s was a product of the monetary scheming of the Fed and Bank of England.  The final result was the stock market crash of 1929 which ushered in the Great Depression.  Contrary to popular belief, the Depression was not caused by the classical gold standard but because of its rejection.

As for the other panics Krugman mentions, neither were caused by the gold standard but by government intervention in the money market.  As economist Joseph Salerno explains, the pervasiveness of fractional reserve banking, or the expansion of credit unbacked by gold reserves, played a key role in creating financial instability.  The panics were caused primarily by

..the establishment of a quasi-central banking cartel among seven privileged New York banks resulting in the almost complete centralization of U.S. gold reserves in their vaults by the National Bank acts of 1863-1864.  This New York City banking cartel was able to expand willy nilly the monetary base and the overall money supply by expanding their own notes and deposits on top of gold reserves.   Their notes and deposits were then used as reserves by lower tier banks (Reserve City Banks and Country Banks) on which to  pyramid their own notes and deposits.

Moreover, banks, especially the larger ones, were encouraged in their inflationary credit creation by the firmly entrenched expectation that they would be freed from fulfilling their contractual obligations in times of difficulty by the legal suspensions of cash payments to their depositors and note-holders that recurred during panics throughout the 19th century.

In sum, an adherence to a real gold standard was not the main cause of all the financial panics Paul Krugman lists.  It was his favorite institution, the state, and the incessant fiddling around with the economy by the political class that created an unstable monetary system.  It is also worth pointing out that the late 19th century was a period of incredible economic growth for both the United States and the rest of the world in spite of the flawed gold standard.  Though it is often alluded to as a time of robber barons, worker starvation, and terrible deflation, the U.S. economy experienced its highest rate of growth ever recorded as the 1800s drew to a close.  As Murray Rothbard documents in The History of Money and Banking in the United States: The Colonial Era to World War II:

The record of 1879–1896 was very similar to the first stage of the alleged great depression from 1873 to 1879. Once again, we had a phenomenal expansion of American industry, production, and real output per head. Real reproducible, tangible wealth per capita rose at the decadal peak in American history in the 1880s, at 3.8 percent per annum. Real net national product rose at the rate of 3.7 percent per year from 1879 to 1897, while per-capita net national product increased by 1.5 percent per year…

Both consumer prices and nominal wages fell by about 30 percent during the last decade of greenbacks. But from 1879–1889, while prices kept falling, wages rose 23 percent.  So real wages, after taking inflation—or the lack of it—into effect, soared.

No decade before or since produced such a sustainable rise in real wages.

From 1869 to 1879 the total number of business establishments barely rose, but the next decade saw a 39.4-percent increase. Nor surprisingly, a decade of falling prices, rising real income, and lucrative interest returns made for tremendous capital investment, ensuring future gains in productivity.

When the United States maintained a gold standard to a fairly significant degree, the economy blossomed.  The relative absence of inflation ensured that the dollar acted as a store of value in addition to facilitating transactions.  Without the threat of looming price increases, the public was more willing to put off consumption and add to the supply of capital availability by saving.  The prudent technique of producing more than you consume allowed for a greater number of entrepreneurs to put capital to work.  This set the foundation for mass production and giving consumers access to an abundance of goods never thought possible just a century before.

To the Keynesians’ befuddlement, the economic renaissance of the late 19th century occurred at a time where prices weren’t rising or stable but actually falling.  The fall in the general price level occurred as the production capacity expanded at a faster rate than the money supply.  Today, economists of the Keynesian and monetarist school remain convinced that a stable price level is good thing when common sense dictates otherwise.  Falling prices are a godsend for consumers; not a catastrophe.  As long as entrepreneurs are able to utilize the inherent feedback mechanism of an undistorted pricing system to forecast input costs, falling prices are only a minor problem.  The focus on price stability is why many economists missed the Depression and the Fed-engineered boom of the 1920s.  In a free market, the tendency is for prices to fall as production increases.

Krugman denies not only that sound money leads to economic stability and growth, he does so while attempting to show that gold has been incredibly volatile since Richard Nixon cuts the dollar’s tie to the precious metal in 1971.  But Krugman puts the proverbial cart before the horse with his example as it hasn’t been the price of gold that has fluctuated to a high degree but rather the dollar’s value.  As Forbes editor John Tamny pointed out in August of 2011

as Brookes calculated in his essential book The Economy In Mind, “In 1970 an ounce of gold ($35) would buy 15 barrels of OPEC oil ($2.30/bbl). In May 1981 an ounce of gold ($480) still bought 15 barrels of Saudi oil ($32/bbl).” Fast forward to the present, and an ounce of gold ($1750) buys roughly 20 barrels of oil ($85)

Krugman also asserts that when interest rates fall, the price of gold increases [ZH - we discussed the various regime changes between interest rates and gold here in great detail].  But again he makes the same mistake of not recognizing the role dollar manipulation plays in both measures.  Interest rates haven’t been formed by market forces since the Federal Reserve was established.  In a free market, interest rates are determined by the public’s collective time preference or the discounting of future goods against present goods.  When more people are saving, and therefore putting off consumption, there is a higher supply of loanable funds.  This higher supply translates to lower interest rates as the price of present capital lowers.  Under a fiat regime like the Fed which oversees a system of fractional reserve banking, interests rates are manipulated by a few central bankers instead of the market.  These central planners increase the supply of money in an effort to push down interest rates and induce consumers into borrowing. This also has the effect of pushing up the price of gold as investors lose confidence in the dollar’s value.

In his crusade to keep Keynesianism as a legitimate school of thought, Krugman has yet again attempted to mischaracterize gold and blame it for crises caused solely by government intervention.  What Keynesianism amounts to is a theory of state worship and the virtue of hedonism.  Its leading proponents declare there is such thing as a free lunch and that it is served directly by the printing of money.  In other words, it is based on backwards logic and remains distant from reality.

The Keynesians admit there was a housing bubble then fret over an “output gap.”  They blame market exuberance for recessions but then prescribe the exact same policies that lead to exuberance to begin with.  This irrationality was best displayed with a remarkable quote by former Treasury Secretary and former director of President Obama’s National Economic Council Lawrence Summers who wrote in an editorial for the Washington Post:

The central irony of a financial crisis is that while it is caused by too much confidence, borrowing and lending, and spending, it can be resolved only with more confidence, borrowing and lending, and spending.

Keynesians have no pure economic theory; they are totally ad hoc in their approach.  Any data point which fits their view is trumpeted.  Any theory that presents a challenge to the idea that the economy can be finely tuned like a child’s trinket is dismissed as right-wing propaganda.  Keynesians ultimately reject the golden rule of economics: savings represents deferred consumption and producing more than is consumed.  Real savings in the form of capital goods (factories, equipment, machinery, etc.) are the backbone of any economy.  Government only squanders these scarce resources through its constant pillaging of wealth.

Keynes himself was contemptuous of the middle class throughout his professional career.  This is perhaps why he held such disdain for gold.  Gold is the market’s choice for money; not the statist ruling class dependent on spending virtually unlimited sums of tax dollars.  Because a true gold standard prevents runaway inflation and budget deficits from occurring in perpetuity, Keynesians will do all they can to discredit gold as a workable form of currency.  Their allegiance lies with the state and paper money; not the natural choices of the common man.


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Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:53 | 2751173 strannick
strannick's picture

Maybe I've been staring at them to long, but anyone else noticing the strange patterns of the gold and silver prices? In the 1600s its been all the 555s now, last week it was all 666s. Silver now is all 3s. Are the manipulators now just messing with us?? 

On a more relevant note, with fiat, govt just basically choses whic benighted elitists to bestow its monetary blessings on. Dirty sweaty wealth creation and actual manufacturing production is for plebes.

Gold keeps it fair, makes people accountable, and what prosletizing progressive would ever want that?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:01 | 2751215 Dr Benway
Dr Benway's picture

Dude wanna see a weird graph look at the longterm gold price in AUD. It is a perfect hockeystick.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:12 | 2751241 economics9698
economics9698's picture

Thank you Mr. Miller, I get so sick of the Krugmans of the world telling lies and getting away with it.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:32 | 2751272 Slack Jack
Slack Jack's picture

What will this news do to the price of GOLD?


China and Germany will no longer do business in USD, Euros and Yuan preferred;

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:33 | 2751276 WestVillageIdiot
WestVillageIdiot's picture

Is it a big deal to have the reserve currency?  I would guess that some perks come with that honor.  What, oh what, could go wrong if we lose that status? 

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:58 | 2751315 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

I assume, from your NAME that your question is sacastic?

Each small step towards the collapse of the US dollar as the world's reserve currency is another step towards the US military going apeshit!

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:26 | 2751362 Michael
Michael's picture

Clint Eastwood was great.

I'm still voting for President Barack Obama because the system is still totally corrupt on both sides and needs a bigger enema!

The Oligarchy is still the most important institution in society. That's why I'm still voting for OBAMA!!
Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:41 | 2751383 Michael
Michael's picture

Romney: Platitudes, Platitudes, Platitudes, BARFFF!

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:48 | 2751396 Michael
Michael's picture

The crowd's not going for it Romney, SORRY!

You are everything that's wrong with America. God Bless you. Make all the money you can with the legal system you and your ilk created.

But for the rest of us, That's not the country we want.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:05 | 2751423 Michael
Michael's picture

Is he still talking? Please someone, make him stop talking. Why is he still talking?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:17 | 2751445 Michael
Michael's picture

How come there were so many empty seats at the upper right of the stage?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:08 | 2751575 Slack Jack
Slack Jack's picture


China and Germany will no longer do business in USD, Euros and Yuan preferred;

So,... How come the Tylers haven't picked up on this?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 06:45 | 2751853 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Because you have misrepresented the article. It is not major news and will have limited effect if any.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 08:44 | 2752042 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Why ask that question when you already supplied the answer?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:17 | 2751446 Schmuck Raker
Schmuck Raker's picture

I thought you said, earlier today, you were going away, for good.

How can we miss you if you don't leave?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:21 | 2751452 Michael
Michael's picture

People change their minds. Get over it.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:31 | 2751464 walküre
walküre's picture

You were able to watch this for more than 30 seconds? Please tell me you weren't sober. I couldn't find the Scotch. So had to turn it off.

Romney, Romney, Romney .. like watching a boring 80s car commercial

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:34 | 2751469 walküre
walküre's picture

No, make that a boring insurance commercial from the 80s.

Anyone remember the commercials for 1800-DIE-RICH ???

That's Romney in a bag.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:34 | 2751471 Michael
Michael's picture

No. I was drinking 1 can of Four Loko. Now I have to go to my back up quart of ice beer.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:49 | 2751492 walküre
walküre's picture

From the little I watched, I thought the audience was asleep. He is less inspiring than Bush Jr. That says allot.

Maybe he should try a shock therapy?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:25 | 2751538 Michael
Michael's picture

Why did I go with Ron Paul?


Some of his answers were right.

Most of his Answers were right.

All of His Answers Were Right!


I could tell he's not stupid.

Now you Know.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:39 | 2751548 Pinto Currency
Pinto Currency's picture


Krugman - just another chattering confidence man.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:57 | 2751569 Michael
Michael's picture

I can tell Krugman is stupid.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:54 | 2751629 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Krugman is a potato with a beard and a voicebox.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:50 | 2751670 Michael
Michael's picture

The Dead Stream Media will no longer Prescribe their Version of Reality to the Sheeple Anymore!

Got That?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 09:01 | 2752078 WhiteNight123129
WhiteNight123129's picture

The classic Gold Standard sucks, it actually overvalued Gold by demonetizing Silver, made the currency inflexible to Gold. The demonetizatoin of Silver brought a hardening currency and brought inflation in Asia which got flooded with Silver. The parity were set at the currency level. The much better system was before 1873, with no Gold Standard, in the 1850s you had the best system, which was floating currencies against Gold (so the currency flexibility could be left to each country changing the parity to Gold. Also the Alternative of Silver was buffering against too much increase in mine supplies. A free flowing bullion system would take the power to make currency contraction and interest policy the decision of teh public asking their Gold or Silver and flowing into a country where there would not be too much paper. This would in turn shrink the currency, restore automatically the trade balance. So Krugman is correct, the Gold standard was a failure because it was rigidly imposed parities at currency level, with no free market for Gold (Gold can only be measured in competition of something else of same nature, that is monetary metal). A system of bimetallic flow of bullion with flexible currency against the bullion is much better. The Classical Godl standard was a first top down agreed upon monetary system trying to repress free market of bullion alternative and rigid currencies.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:27 | 2751540 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

Personally, hearing the crowd chant usa, usa, was a bit scary for me.  overtones of germany, say mid to late 30's

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 03:04 | 2751672 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

The King is Dead.

give it 40 seccnds.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:59 | 2751676 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

I said the same thing on the Youtube video of it. 

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:31 | 2751465 Michael
Michael's picture

Did RNC "Scripted" Rules Change Start A Civil War In The Republican Party?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:41 | 2751480 walküre
walküre's picture

Why do #grassroots even bother anymore with the party for the RICH and SUPER RICH

It's not their party. It never was their party. The Bush campaign did a number on them and they were stupid enough to fall for it 2x. Now they're hoping to upseat the predestined Romney. I could care less. They're not getting it. Maybe 3rd times the charm and they get the balls to organize the 3rd party.

All that money and energy into Tea Party wasted down the drain. For nothing. Same as the Occupy Movement.

Oligarch tyrannies cannot be destroyed with reasonable arguments and by peaceful means.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:52 | 2751561 Michael
Michael's picture

It's pandemonium on CNN with with Penn telling all them fucks like it is about Clint Eastwood!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:13 | 2751581 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Mikey, how can we miss ya if you won't go away? ;-)

- Ned

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:32 | 2751661 Michael
Michael's picture


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 03:12 | 2751686 SeattleBruce
SeattleBruce's picture

Are you talking about Obamney?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:42 | 2751482 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Client Eastwood said that? Not "Go ahead! Take my wealth" ?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:12 | 2751573 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

"There are two kinds of people in the world....those with loaded guns...and those who dig."

When it comes to Gold and Clint, I cannot help but think of the best scenes in the history of film.

The Ecstasy of Gold

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:43 | 2751484 New American Re...
New American Revolution's picture

Then that is your truth, and that is the right thing for you to do if you believe in the ruling kleptocracy, because Obama will serve them best if for no other reason that he doesn't have to face the electorate again, but truthfully for many other reasons.   So drink up, please, indulge.  I suggest the krispy kreams, they are better for your heart.   I would suggest topping off the day, on the hour, with a pack of unfiltered Camel's, or clove cigarettes.   Inhale deeply.   All my best,


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:43 | 2751549 Michael
Michael's picture

I like filtered Camel lights 99's.

Did you know Camel is the only cigarette with a cotton filter?

Krispy Kreams were gone last week.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:48 | 2751619 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

"I'm still voting for President Barack Obama because the system is still totally corrupt on both sides and needs a bigger enema!"

Of course you are vote in Barack Enema, you are idiot. But Amerika full of idiots, so maybe Amerika continue to go Barackwards (Boris make up silly English pun!) while under hairy muscle chest of Putin, Russia become new and only World Super Powder!

(Look, Boris finding HTML Format!)

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:02 | 2751510 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Junked ya for misidentification.

The military is not slavering for the chance to "go apeshit-"  that dubious honor goes to the civilian police force.  Military has its problems- especially with a mind bifurcated between gangs and farmboys, but it's not a lost cause.  Your local boys in blue, with their murder wagons and hot irons thirsting for the blood of malcontents, *are.*

Just didn't feel like it was right to do a drive-by, in this case.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:42 | 2751387 Zero Debt
Zero Debt's picture

RNC Sham 2012 - delegates unseated, being sent off the floor kicked out by the "presumptive nominee" Romney and replaced by handpicked people, just enough to prevent Ron Paul from being nominated.

Now - what's the point of having delegates and a convention?

It's a setup! It's a rigged game! It's a f*ing scam! OUTRAGE!!!

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:56 | 2751407 kito
kito's picture

@slackjack--just another reason to get to your local bank of china branch and plunk down some dollars into a renminbi account. once the yuan becomes stronger than the dollar, you will be looking at a 600%+ return on your money..................

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:40 | 2751610 Slack Jack
Slack Jack's picture

What time frame do you have on that?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:47 | 2751556 piceridu
piceridu's picture

Will the US PTB bomb them too if they start setlling oil transactions in Yuan or Euros?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 06:44 | 2751851 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Must you misrepresent an article so badly? They will conduct additional trade in yuan and euros. They are not going to stop using the dollar- no where in the article does it say that. There is no reference to an amount. 

This will do nothing to gold. 

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:39 | 2751281 cranky-old-geezer
cranky-old-geezer's picture



You'll be pleased to know nobody is getting away with anything.

People like Krugman think lack of a gold standard and lack of any other natural way to control the amount of currency issued by the Fed gives them their own little money tree they can reach up and pluck dollars from anytime they want.

After doing that a while and pouring trillions more dollars into the money supply they know inflation is the natural result, so they manipulate inflation statistics to show no inflation.

But like I said, they're not getting away with anything.

They might be able to fool stupid American sheeple into believing there's no inflation.  After all, stupid American sheeple would believe pigs fly if they saw it on the evening news.

But they can't fool the rest of the world.  Nations like China are watching the value of US currency drop steadily from all the Fed printing since 2008. 

They're teaming up with other nations also watching the value of US currency drop steadily, and forming a new monetary system that will replace US currency as world reserve currency.  It won't be long now.

When it happens, it spells f-u-c-k-y-o-u to Bernanke and the Fed ...and Wall Street ...and the US government ...and America in general.

No, they're not getting away with anything.  America is headed for currency collapse.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:23 | 2751535 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Fucking right, geezer.

I spent $800 in three hours today.  Made the car payment and the cable (internet) bill with that ($300)- but after that, know what I got for my troubles?

Three fishtank filters, and a little plastic jar of flakes for my Goldfish.
Ten pounds of cheese, two gallons of pre-made Kool-aid for the kids, three (admittedly tasty) sandwiches and eight twelve-packs of (real sugar) soda. (*not usual consumption, just grabbing the labor day sale)
600 hand-rolled cigarettes.
Notebooks, markers and pencils for two children.
One pair of shoes for a seven-year old boy. 
Five pounds of butter.
Five pounds of Sour cream.
and a bag of chocolate chips.

Am I angry about this?  You bet your ass I am. 

Ten years ago, $800 would have bought me a fucking car- but today, it's only enough to eat for the next two weeks because I was sensible enough to build a pantry last year.

Pantry is running out, so if any of you fucks who are doing this actually read these comments, here's some free advice.

When I made and stocked the aforementioned pantry, I spent just as much money on shells- military grade 12-ga 00 buckshot, to be precise.  Enough to fill the truck of a shitty Chevy Cavalier.  All stacked neat and tidy in surplus military ammo cans, with silica dessicant packets in each one, neat as you please.

Those sad and lonely soldiers are getting antsy.  Stop taking food out of the mouths of my children RIGHT FUCKING NOW, or you're going to meet them.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:50 | 2751623 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is no having pantry, get in line komrad!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 16:46 | 2753798 indio007
indio007's picture

Maybe you should buy some real food

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:23 | 2751251 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture



Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:55 | 2751523 TwoShortPlanks
TwoShortPlanks's picture

A Gold Standard or just Gold by itself? Allow me to explain exactly what Gold means to me.

When I was a kid back in the late 70's early 80's money was quite different than today. A Millionaire was a Big Shot, a Multi-Millionaire was King Pin and I can't remember a Billionaire with the exception of Onassis. Back then, when the news talked about big money in the economy it was 10's, 100's of Millions, perhaps Billions.

Today, everyone in my street is a property Millionaire. Multi-Millionaires are somewhat common too, and many well know Billionaires have emerged. Did wealthy people just magically appear from nowhere? No! They have emerged out of the economy. Likewise, news programs today rarely talk of 10's of Millions, more-often it's 100's of Millions, Billions, and now the word Trillions rolls off their tongues as though the figures simply require an additional zero at the end. And what of the infamous $700 Trillion Derivative figure? It behaves everyone to note that discussions on Multi-Trillions more often relate to debt rather than assets!

How the hell did we go from Millions, to Billions, to Trillions, and now even the word Quadrillion is being used?! (it's rhetorical, I'm perfectly fucking aware how). The monetary system has inflated at a rate even the Big Bang would consider worthy of discussing.

In matters of finance and economy, the mind of the average person has become accustom to figures 1,000, 10,000 and perhaps up to 100,000 times larger than 30 to 40 years ago. But have any metrics in our own lives expanded at such a rate?

Average wages since then have only tripled, at most quadrupled. No 1,000 fold increase there I'm afraid.

The Gold price and other commodities have all stayed within double digit multiples also.

Population growth hasn't been exponential either.

Can anyone see where I'm taking this point?

Society has somehow expanded the financial sphere thousands of times larger than our own day-to-day world without the average person even giving it a second thought. This means that the power of financial and economic storms would be exponentially more expressed, now, more than at any other time in human history. This has EVERYTHING to do with removing the Gold Standard.

Infinitely worse is that this uncontrolled and unbalanced expansion has dwarfed the expansion of the Real Economy (by "Real Economy" I mean manufacturing, durable goods type stuff, not FaceBook speculative vapourware and most of the Derivative Skullduggery) guess is that it is precisely this lopsidedness which has caused a "Gumming-up of the financial system", and this phenomenon is what a Gold Standard would have regulated as Gold links into physics, not computer key-strokes and formula. Wouldn't this explain the near zero return on trillions of dollars worth of stimulus for economic growth? Is that picture getting a little sharper now?

The bulk of the world's economy, in dollar terms, has gone from Heavy Industry, to Technology, to Finance, to Speculation...THE BULK of then had a heart attack, and the powers that be are expecting some sort of restart after stimulating only the Finance side of the equation? LOL. Extreme ignorance!

Removing the Gold Standard allowed the Pendulum to be swung way-way-way to one side.

So, if one day the perfect storm does hit, and we all know it will, doesn't it stand to reason that Gold, as a trusted psychological safe haven, will one day go exponential, as that Pendulum swings proportionately across to the other side, and the 'Fun-Run' of the millennia begins?!

So called experts on Gold call for $3,000, $5,000, and $7,200 an ounce figure...LOL.

The DotCom, Real Estate and Bond bubbles ALL EXIST/ED within the largest quadrillion dollar bubble ever created, the 'Pure Fiat Bubble'.

Tick Tock!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:53 | 2751627 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

"I can't remember a Billionaire with the exception of Onassis"

Boris remember now where is get tattoo after is big drinking. Onassis!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 06:24 | 2751837 _underscore
_underscore's picture

Totally agree TSP. At some point, the printed/keystroked 'money' has to equalise with real physical production/resource. Despite all the nonsensical financial/economics bollox-speak surrounding the 'solution' to this, that simple stark fact, remains.

In the meantime, the producers of the fake money can rob & pillage, while the ordinary person is fed lies & nonsense about inflation & need for 'austerity'.  My personal apprehension of (true) inflation is nearer to 15% p.a., that is, all your cash fiat halved in purchasing power in ~4-5 years. It's the biggest 3 card trick ever perpetrated on the masses in 3 milennia & it's really,really happening, right now, everywhere.

As you say, PMs (and their 'derivatives': real storable goods, self-sufficiency & forward-thinking/planning/skills acquisition) are the only defence.

One sobering thought I keep: there's no reason why a farmer/worker in China/Brazil/India etc., has less income than their counterparts in US/Europe/Aus/NZ other than the historical financial (read robbery) manipulation practised by the West. Add that to our mega overspend of future production over the past 40~ years & the math is terrifying.



Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:04 | 2751216 philipat
philipat's picture

At about 10AM EDT USD spiked up and Gold/Silver spiked down. I wonder who would want to see strong USD weak PM's?

My guess would be JPM acting for The Bernank. 10AM EDT is the normal time that these algos get switched on.

The only way to control the profligacy of Congress is a Gold standard, which is, of course, why it will never happen.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:52 | 2751307 dbomb12
dbomb12's picture

only when it applies to the general population, i have never seen an accountable and fair politician in my lifetime

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:54 | 2751631 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Putin is maybe no fair or accounting, but is strong bisexual arms and chest!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:56 | 2751632 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Sorry, Google is screwing, Boris is meaning "biceps".

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:54 | 2751500 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Been busy, so I haven't been here much, and you're a new name to me, strannick- but I am compelled to chime in here because you invoked elitist numerolgy.

Yes, I know numerology in fact is a crock of shit- but in reality, there are many among TPTB that hold to it.

So, here's how it is-

666 is the number of man.

333 is the number of Coranzon, the god of chaos.  If you were reading an H. P. Lovecraft novel, you'd call Coranzon "Azathoth"- the blind, idiot god of chaos.

A refresher, for all those new faces.  Occultism loves trios- I'll ascribe that bit of doggerel to Lewis Carrol, whom I personally adore for his insane yet compelling wit.  Those with an occult bent use triples as a specie of vanity, to tell you that they are pulling the strings.  (Reference: "The Hunting of the Snark.")

The numbers 1-10 correspond to sepheroth on the qaabalistic tree of life.  *You* don't need to care about this- you only need to know that TPTB use these numbers to broadcast their intentions to balance their karma.

Here's the Cliff's Notes:

1 (or 111) represents the Crown, or God itself.

2 represents the Primum Mobile- or the Zodiac.  (Read: the lesser, petty and fractous gods.)

3 represents Saturn- or death.  Death means "change" to an occultist, not literal loss of life and burial.  It also means sterility.  

(A disclosure here- even though ZH doesn't require them.  I unwound my physical silver position with the exception of a few coins I just happen to really like recently because of the recent "broadcast-" I can't afford to hold a sterile investment for years.  At 30.33, I let it go at a breakeven point.)

4 represents Jupiter, or Expansion and largess.

5 represents  Mars- the God of War.  When Silver hits 50.55, or 55.50, prepare for WWIII.

6 is the Sun, or splendour,

7 is Venus, or Love.

8 is Mercury, or technology.

9 is the Moon, or fractious thougt and/or insanity,

10 is the Earth, and all that represents.  

I'm going to post this anyhow, seeing as how I took the time to type it out, but I understand if you ignore it or don't care.  Hell, I'm a po' boy myself.  I make some good calls, and you can check that in the archives- but I never had money to invest in the first place, and didn't profit from them (to my own shame, they were "paper trades" only.)

But, for what it's worth- the numbers tell me that we are reaching a painful inflection point.  My suggestion is to dump metals and invest in corn and soybeans.  If you have enough metal, build or buy a grain mill and/or farmland- and if you have just a little, start storing food yesterday.  Gold and silver are both beautiful and useful- and I still have more than the average bear- but what's coming doesn't care about your shiny precious.

Another unrequired disclosure- I do have a vested interest in you taking my advice- first, I need to feed my kids, and that will be tough without flour.  Secondly, I can fix your grain mill on the day it breaks down.  I dallied with silver coin, and still sort of like it- but the real hedge is in production tooling and know-how.  It'll be a fine day for men like me when the slot machine shows 888.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:06 | 2751517 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

+ 888

Nice information Prometheus418, well done.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:39 | 2751607 Apostate2
Apostate2's picture

In Chinese 44 means double death

888 means triple luck

But the best is always 4 nines

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:58 | 2751638 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

In Russia numbers is clad for meaning too. Giving example of "69" and "96". Boris is forget "69" is for meaning, but "96" is contentment with fat babushka wife!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 06:51 | 2751858 Zero-risk bias
Zero-risk bias's picture

Always had a fascination with number myself. One thing about your inference that narks is this: Why would TPTB chose to give signals according to USD value, (but not CNY, EUR, GBP, JPY)?

Personally I never refer to USD, as I have absolutely never had or used any USD in my life.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 08:30 | 2751985 Hayabusa
Hayabusa's picture

That's what the algo is set to (e.g., .666)

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:50 | 2751189 ljag
ljag's picture

But..................but he's gotta a peeHdee!


Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:57 | 2751198 SheepleLOVEched...
SheepleLOVEcheddarbaybiscuits's picture

Gold has pretty much outperformed every asset class since 2000. When I was an undergrad economics student a year ago, I had to explain this to my professor, as he insisted the USD has not lost any value since 1971....However, gold standard will never be implemented, it is a thing of the past. As long as TBTF banks exist, there is no demand for a gold standard, if in existence they would not receive interest free funding, which they can make money off of. Solution? End bailouts, flush the weak banks(high risk takers), dismember the fed, give control of the currency to the treasury to be backed by a % in gold. This is the only way to correct a severly distorted(synthetically inflated) economy. Unfortunately the status quo will not let this happen, as they will kick the proverbial can down the road on an infinite basis.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:03 | 2751220 macholatte
macholatte's picture


The Accutron Method


My colleagues and I developed the Accutron Method of Empirical Analysis in the lab in advanced chemistry class in high school. We always got an “A”.  The method is reasonably simple and nearly foolproof. The Accutron Method has been used by climate scientists with great success and Krugman appears to have learned it. One needs to painstakingly adjust all the data collected to prove a predetermined outcome. Bad data, defined as data that does not fit the paradigm, is erased. Often, techniques in the lab are adjusted and instruments might need to be “properly calibrated”. In the future the Accutron Method will be proven to be the only posible solution to the Kobayashi Maru. The Accutron Method is always accurate and spot on.





Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:04 | 2751223 zaphod
zaphod's picture

You are correct that it will not happen anytime soon and they will hold on to fiat as long as possible. Even if Ron Paul became president it wouldn't happen.

Once the power of money is centralized, that central power never lets go. Show me an example in history where this has happened.

In order for that central power to lose their control on money and for people to return to goal, the currency has to be destroyed first. It is only when everyone loses all confidence in the fake money game, that a reset happens and people fall back to gold and a store of value and tranactional mechanism. 

Just look at the games the FED has to pay today. They will keep playing more for some time and the game will keep going on. Until it blows up. 

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:56 | 2751312 dbomb12
dbomb12's picture

You cannot continue to buy hard goods with just a piece of paper and a promise to pay it back, the dollar collapse is coming soon. The manipulation on the gold and silver price seems to be getting more narrow as the charade continues

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:28 | 2751364 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

The dollar will have value as long as the FEderal government demands taxes paid in dollars. I have to work until May to earn enough dollars to pay my tax bill. We cannot talk about the dollar going to zero value until the government stops demanding $2T per year in dollar payments.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 07:05 | 2751866 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

If you didn't work UNTIL May, how long would you have to work to pay your taxes?

What if you didn't work at all? Say you operated in barter for a living and left ordinary "Joe Sixpack" hampster wheel business behind. Wouldn't that be nice?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 07:41 | 2751909 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

It would be nice.  But the government will still force you to make payment in dollars.  Property taxes. child support. etc. You can barter all you want, but the DMV does not accept chickens for your annual licence tabs.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 08:25 | 2751973 GoldenTool
GoldenTool's picture

+100 this.  Opting out is not an option.  You will use the dollar, at the point of a gun if necessary.  Finances are the matrix.


"Do unto others."

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 08:34 | 2752001 Dr. No
Dr. No's picture

The government uses a gun now.  I am sure there are several members here who can testify that if you do not make child support payment in dollars, regardless of your method of income (dollars or chickens), you will go to jail.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:32 | 2751274 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Krugman was wrong.  It wasn't gold causing those problems it was bread.  In every instance of instability the people in power had consumed bread just before the problems erupted.  Most murderers consumed bread on the very days they committed their crimes.  And if not bread then dihydrogen monoxide!


Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:41 | 2751282's picture

Lizzy Borden ate some bread,

Then knocked her father in the head.

When she saw what she had done,

She killed her Ma and ate a bun.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:00 | 2751413 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Your logic is infallible.  I've often cited the correlation between milk and heroin addiction.  Every single one of them started life drinking milk.  It's irrefutable!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 07:07 | 2751867 Moe Howard
Moe Howard's picture

That is correct. I can confirm your observations.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:36 | 2751284 analyzer_66
analyzer_66's picture

they will kick the can until the peasants revolt and shoot at each other in the streets and it wont take much to bring civil unrest here and bank runs, look at Spain, it has all happened there and in Greece.  How far off are we when are large percent of the population decides they dont have to pay any taxes ?  Wait a minute ...

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:46 | 2751300 Gazooks
Gazooks's picture

Solution? End bailouts.

Over Ben's lifeless, grey-green corpse. 

The end of bailouts comes when fractional reserve means just the tip of a AK barrel up Larry Summers ass.

PM's then will make good barter for fuck-stick free capital markets. Not before.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:01 | 2751641 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

"Gold has pretty much outperformed every asset class since 2000"

Boris is investing in Thorium and Polonium in 2000 and is increase in value nice, but every day check and is weigh less and less. Also Boris is hair loosing.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 14:29 | 2753438 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

hahaha! K, that was pretty go0d Bo'.

Sat, 09/01/2012 - 04:40 | 2754668 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

No, is serious. Keeping Thorium in refrigerant appliance for preferred temperature, but teeth and gums is bleeding now. Next time Boris invest in cardboard and is hope is no precipitation.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:53 | 2751201 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

Jim Rickards debated the author of the article in the Atlantic.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:54 | 2751202 P.T.Bull
P.T.Bull's picture

Krugman is pretty stupid. I have seen him speak on youtube, and he is incredibly arrogant and incredibly sensitive to criticism. Your basic diva.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:59 | 2751211 strannick
strannick's picture

Progressive eggheads prefer preaching to undergrads at the academy and prosletizing in clicquey journals, to debates.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:11 | 2751238 Quinvarius
Quinvarius's picture

Indeed.  The guy is hack.  You can tell by the way he cherry picks data out of context, he is merely trying to win an argument against people he assumes don't know what he is talking about.  He neither bright nor trying to find any truth. 

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:39 | 2751290 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Paul Krugman is a useless bag of fartwind. this complete cunt any time at all is a mystery to me.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:03 | 2751643 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Even bag of fartwind is value. Paul is how you say, "bagless vacuum"!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 07:56 | 2751928 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Let me...amend my above post Boris. Upon reflection, you may be correct.

Paul Krugman is a useless bag of smelly, dinosaurs collective ancient post numerous beasties devoured STANK fartwind...but wait.....that also might have value. Dammit!

Paul Krugman is a CUNT....wait.....some value there.

Paul Krugman is the goo that collects in your eye while you sleep, and is flicked off in the even can be used for axle grease of some sort.

Eureka! Here it is. Paul Krugman is a mindless fucktard - NO value there!


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 10:39 | 2752598 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Boris is explore Keynesian Economik theory...

Paul Krugman is break face attends for Emergency Room. Is giving jobs for Ambulatory driver, doctor, surgeon, orderly. Triage staff is spend wage on beer and pizza. Waiter and cook is spend wage on rent and grocery item. Grocer is buy new window.

If so great for economical advantage, why not break every bone in Krugmand mindless body?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:56 | 2751406 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

I'll argue krugman is playing a role, and playing it very very well.

Krugman = Ellsworth Toohey. Not a doubt in my mind.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:56 | 2751205 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

thank God there have never been any financial panics since we went off the gold standard! now "shut your pie hole and listen to the Paul Krugman/Ben Bernanke tag team theme song"

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:57 | 2751210 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

All this talk about gold standard is pointless. Who's going to implement it?

Different puppets, but obviosly same master. Watch it to the end if you have the courage.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:08 | 2751230 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

Depending on what you mean by "gold standard" it would seem the Chinese will inplement it or at least instigate it.


Whatever... Much as I want to see the world a certain way, I am ultimately here to learn and improve the lot of me and mine.  gold will go up at least enough to offset the ongoing debasement which is why it must be so savagely attacked by the current puppet masters.  If gold moves back into the monetary system because the rising economies of the world demand it, then I get a big payoff.


Beats 2% government bonds either way.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:10 | 2751234 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

Also, I dont know if I do have the courage for your link.  I just can't make myself look at the election.  Its an even worse form of gossip than what we get from TMZ. 


How can people honestly beleive it makes a difference?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:21 | 2751257 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Yep, the puppet masters ultimately win no matter which asshat wins the election. No wonder constitutionalist guys like Ron Paul get shafted by clowns like these guys and their propamedia buddies.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:15 | 2751343 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I agree with you; turn off your tv, do not watch any election coverage, you don't need to bother, all coverage will be two sides of the same coin anyway.

But on election day take the time to go down to your polling station and write-in on your ballot the name of the person you think would be best for the job. Who knows?  Maybe there are a lot more people of the same mind you are than you think. If no one can possibly fit your bill, destroy your ballot.

Whether it makes a difference or not, brave individuals ostensibly gave their lives for you to have this privilege (right?), please don't spit on the memory of them.

How can people honestly beleive it makes a difference?

In 1944 the people of Saskatchewan (Canada) voted their hearts and minds, and were rewarded with the only Goverment in NA to run 17 surplus budgets... just saying.




Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:20 | 2751352 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 Thanks for your kind comment earlier.  A wonderful cranium, you do have .>>> Just Imagine?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 11:00 | 2751708 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

 Thank you too. I try to make a habit of paying my respect to people who've earned it.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 13:36 | 2753284 akak
akak's picture

As your bigoted Chinese troll buddy, AnAnonymous, would say: Make me laugh!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 14:25 | 2753330 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

yeeeaah, You'll have to forgive me if I have difficulty respecting latent coprophagists who try to pass off veiled death threats/wishes and/or regurgitated rote as arguments. This means you.

You know, taking into consideration how much time you two spend together chatting, I would say AnAnon is more your bff than he/she is mine.  I hardly think it qualifies me as the victim's 'pal' if I cross the street once or twice to piss them out when they've said something true yet twenty or so toughs are still doing their level best to set her/him on fire

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:37 | 2751377 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

Ive always thought the networks should track and publish spoiled ballot statistics.

Wouldnt it be interesting if an election ended with 24% for one guy, 23% for the other and 53% spoiled ballots and an 80% voter turnout? 

Everyone says turnout is low because people are lazy but for all we know, many are making an informed decision not to participate or sanction the election at all.  Tracking spoiled ballots (or even adding an "I hate you all" option) and feeding those stats back to the electorate might help us get a better feel for where the country is really at.


Guess I just explained why it can never happen.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 11:50 | 2751705 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

why, have you already looked for that information? Demanded it in writing from the networks, or even better: your elected officials? I mean I understand that you're a busy person and you don't have the time to be composing letters and emails to be sent all over the place... what with your ZH responsibilities and everything.

 Contrary to your putative axiom that such a thing 'could never happen' countries do in fact provide such records of their election results,

+1 for going there, though.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:01 | 2751414 Pants McPants
Pants McPants's picture

I respect what you said, but nevertheless I'm not going to vote. This veteran doesn't believe in coercion and refuses to sanction a corrupt, immoral system through his participation.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:13 | 2751579 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   ForWhomTheTollBuilds                                 &    Pants McPants


    Iam truly blessed to be in your  " Presence".    You are Gentleman !

       Any War stories appreciated/   :-)


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 21:40 | 2751592 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

With respect to this matter, you and I disagree.

perhaps you risk squandering a rare opportunity as well. (Eg. above) I'm not implying in any way that this is not entirely your choice to make, but some might consider it compelling for a different reason...respect? I accept that you might not feel that if you consider deluded those who suffered in the past for the privilege. Sadly it doubles the tragedy by suggesting that they were wasted, their lives and families utterly destroyed, for nothing but a handful of dimes. And there still lingers that possibility of a missed opportunity.

If you participate by destroying your ballot, an act of direct protest, how is that 'sanctioning' anything? You admit yourself you've not intention of even casting your ballot in the trash, and that is your right, so apart from your conscience who exactly is pointing a gun at your head and coercing you to vote? Nobody.

And if nobody shows up,  TcurrentPTB dust their hands together and say,

"Well, that's that then." -and we're all stuck with this particular 'flavour' of oligopoli for all eternity.

Ok, maybe either way this time it will just be Mr. Romney, or even that other guy; this time.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:05 | 2751644 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

Saskatchewan is world large supply of Uranium and Pot, can have bad socialistic government and still all 200 people is happy as pig on pole!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:53 | 2751646 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Sounds pretty dEcenTralizeD, no?

Or were you implying success isn't scalable?

Did you mean "bad" as in corrupt, principle, or ass...I'm not feeling anything off of those first two.

That surplus run has simply got to be a record

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:57 | 2751675 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

How many is kind of Socialist? Only bad.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 11:53 | 2751696 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I see, of course; you don't like the flavour of the sunshine I'm dishing out. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you're not alone.

PS Is your 'accent' affected? If so, lordy is it atrocious.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:37 | 2751476 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

Nothing new there, the question is how do the voters fall for it every damn time.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 02:22 | 2751639 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

+1 Thanks, I'll take your word for it.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 20:59 | 2751212 AUD
AUD's picture

What Keynesianism amounts to is a theory of state worship and the virtue of hedonism.

Money extinguishes all debt. If you have control over money, you have the ability to extinguish all your debts, no matter how many debts you have. You can have everything you desire, you are indeed with the gods.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:22 | 2751258 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture


Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:06 | 2751225 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Krugman is a Tool with a capital "T", but the Central Bankers are bankers, Miller.  Who are the top 20 donors of the von Mises Institute of Canada?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:22 | 2751256 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So, now you despise both Rand AND Krugman?...yet .gov can do no wrong in your eyes, because it ALONE has the supreme intellect, ability snd assets to build roads and bridges.

Somewhere theres a lunatic in search of an asylum...but we didn't build one.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:50 | 2751298 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Can't have an honest debate winker?  I've detailed many times how much wrong .gov does.   I consistently call out Obama, Bush, Reagan, Clinton, Bush I, etc for being part of the machine that funds von Mises.  But go ahead and create a false debate.  Your fellow Rand cultists will up arrow you ad infinitum.  Does your intellectual curiousity end at knowing the identity of a fictional character named Galt?  I want to know who funds von Mises.  Don't you?  Or are major funders only relevant in the debate over who funds those who the corporate media give us as major candidates?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 21:53 | 2751308 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

nmewn I have watched you and LTER bang back and forth with each other and I think from all the great stuff I have learned on this site, watching you two knock each other around takes the cake. I would throw in crockett almanac as well. It has imparted a lot of knowledge on people with a side of comedy to boot.

For whatever it's worth idealogically I tend to agree with you. But LTER has made a hell of a case that it's not all black and white. Maybe there is some grey. Maybe I have this wrong about LTER but I think it's interesting that he blasts the shit out of both sides of the aisle and yet still has some faith in government. I think if that means he still has some faith in humanity and that people may actually be capable of looking out for each other without abusing authority, and that's pretty cool. Maybe I am reaching and I have it wrong. Maybe I hope he is right because if the shit ever does hit the fan I am relying on people being able to pull together instead of tear each other apart.

That being said I am armed and I plan on being wrong.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:01 | 2751316's picture

LTER has no faith in humanity. He believes that individuals are incapable of voluntary interaction and must be threatened with prisons and violence in order to conform to the status quo. It's a secular version of Original Sin and salvation through the intersession of a priestly class.

Beyond that he's clearly delusional. The other day he complained that Rand cultists were acting in an angry and violent manner toward him. I asked what they had done and he said that someone had posted the quote, "Who is John Galt?"

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:04 | 2751326 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Wrong on every level, but I'm sure you'll get many up arrows.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:13 | 2751340's picture

Here it is in black and white:



Vote up!

3 Vote down!


Do you not see the difference between those who blindly follow an ideology and who violently and angrily defend it against all criticism (Rand/Mises shills) versus those who cast a vote for a candidate who supported many but not all of the views of the voter (me)?

Why don't you tell me all of the things you hate about Mises and Rand?

I'll start with Ron Paul:

He is a hypocrite when it comes to his religion.  You can't worship Jesus and think Ayn Rand is all that.

He is completely wrong that private charity would somehow supplant government funded health care.

If we deregulate more, large companies will gain power and the middle class will suffer.

I could go on.  I voted for him because he wants to end the Fed, dismantle the police state, and dismantle the military industrial complex, all of which I favor.  I disagree with many of his views and I would much prefer a different option.

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 22:47 | 2745533
Vote up!

Vote down!



Do you not see the difference between those who blindly follow an ideology and who violently and angrily defend it against all criticism (Rand/Mises shills) versus those who cast a vote for a candidate who supported many but not all of the views of the voter (me)?

Who here has done that? Be specific and provide documentation.


Why don't you tell me all of the things you hate about Mises and Rand?

I don't hate anything about them. I do disagree with some of the things they've said. Why do you believe that if you do not hate a person you must therefore be a member of a cult which blindly defends that person? If hatred is the criteria for determining who is not a member of a cult and you are not a member of any cult then wouldn't that require you to hate everyone?


I'll start with Ron Paul:

He is a hypocrite when it comes to his religion.  You can't worship Jesus and think Ayn Rand is all that.


There you go again. You claim that it's OK for you to agree with Ron Paul on some things but not others yet you do not grant Ron Paul the right to appreciate some aspects of Rand's works while disagreeing with others. What's with the double standard that always lets you off the hook for behavior which you find intolerable in others?


He is completely wrong that private charity would somehow supplant government funded health care.

You promote elected government because you claim that it will operate according to the will of the people. You also believe that the people do not want to provide charity to others. You want the government to provide this charity in opposition to what you claim is the will of the people. These are contradictory ideas.

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 23:48 | 2745633 LetThemEatRand
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"Who here has done that [blindly follow an ideology and who violently and angrily defend it against all criticism (Rand/Mises shills)] ? Be specific and provide documentation."

Come on, really?  

Tue, 08/28/2012 - 23:58 | 2745648
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Yeah. Show me the posts that say Rand was never wrong.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 00:27 | 2745696 LetThemEatRand
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I could show you 100+ posts that effectively argue that she was some kind of prophet, but I don't have the energy.  If you don't see that already, I can't imagine that anything I could say would convince you.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 00:43 | 2745709
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If the evidence is so overwhelming then why do you find it impossible to provide documentation? You've got the energy to post unsubstantiated allegations but you can't work up the least bit of interest in presenting evidence that backs them up.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 00:48 | 2745713 LetThemEatRand
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I am unwilling to spend hours compiling the posts for you.  I am pretty sure you've read them, and you either don't see it or don't want to see it.  

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 01:05 | 2745720
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I believe that you are mischaracterizing the nature of such posts. In order to show that that is true I need you to present the posts for me to review and critique.

If one makes unsubstantiated claims then the target of those claims can not refute the evidence as no evidence has been presented. If I claimed that you have repeatedly stated that you enjoy eating puppies but I refused to document those statements how would you refute the charge?

Of course most folks realize that those who refuse to present evidence when making accusations do so because no such evidence exists. So please feel free to continue to hurt your own case by refusing to substantiate your allegations.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 01:10 | 2745727 LetThemEatRand
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Except that I'm not claiming that anyone said he enjoys eating puppies.  I'm asserting that -- by context and tone -- many posters effectively see Ayn Rand as Scientologists see L. Ron.  I cannot simply search past posts for examples of puppy eating advocacy. 

Many have tried to prove that Scientology is a cult that should not have religious exemption from taxation.  None have succeeded in the U.S., even though it is obvious to me and most that it is a cult.  I don't expect I'd convince you that many posters here belong to a cult of Ayn Rand.  I don't expect that I could show you that when people reflexively say, "Who is John Galt," that the statement reflects broad brainwashing.  Nor do I care to try.  If you don't see it already, I won't convince you.

Wed, 08/29/2012 - 01:22 | 2745733
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You're seeing something that isn't there. That's why you can't document your claims. You can't copy, paste or link to that which exists only in your imagination. The only person around here who is obsessed with Ayn Rand is you.

You spoke of "those who blindly follow an ideology and who violently and angrily defend it against all criticism," and the only example you can provide is someone quoting the line "Who is John Galt?" Where is the anger and violence in making a simple literary allusion? How can you not admit that you have been wildly mischaracterizing what others have said?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:25 | 2751357 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture


Go back and look at the posters that told me to fuck myself and other clearly angry responses in that thread.  My calling out of Rand as Greenspan and Greenspan as Rand engendered great anger.  Come on.  Please find a single post where I suggest for a moment that your cult friends don't have the right to tell me to go fuck myself.   

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:27 | 2751363's picture

You are the one who complained that others acted in an angry and violent manner toward you. As the one making the accusation it is up to you to provide the evidence.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:34 | 2751372 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Telling me to fuck myself isn't angry?

You are devolving into the cultist that you are.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:58 | 2751400's picture

If you look above you'll see that I provided actual quotes in context to show that you were lying when you said that you hadn't claimed that others were angry and violent toward you. What you have done is paraphrase what you claim others have said without context. Where's your documentation? Remember, you'll want to provide evidence of not only anger but also of the alleged violence from which you claim to have suffered.

The floor is yours.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:02 | 2751415 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You said in your post above that I was delusional for thinking that people are angry with me and said violent things ("go fuck yourself"). 

Was I delusional?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:07 | 2751429's picture

You are still paraphrasing. Where are the quotes in context? What was actually said by the various parties? What was your attitude during the course of the exchange? In other words, where's your documentation?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:10 | 2751436 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Before I spend time finding the quotes, do you deny that what I say is true or are you just asking me to spend the time to prove it?  Say it if you believe it that I cannot find prior posts where I was told to go fuck myself and other angry/violent responses.  Go on record and then I'll spend the time.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:21 | 2751450's picture

I would like to see what you consider to be violence aimed at you. I would also like to see if you were just as angry during the conversation as those whom you describe as cultists. So let's see an unedited exchange as I provided above.

For future reference you should always be ready to back up any accusations you make with evidence. If you hold to this standard then you will avoid making unverifiable claims whether anyone asks to see your documentation or not.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:46 | 2751483 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Shit or get off the pot.  If I find it, will you admit you are wrong?  And will you at least consider the possibility that you belong to a cult?  I'm ready to spend an hour or two digging for past posts if you will be honest with me.  

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:51 | 2751494's picture

Look, if you want to be the guy who goes around saying that violent cultists are assailing him but is unable to provide any evidence to back up his claims then you go right ahead and be that guy.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:21 | 2751532 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

so you didn't shit or get off the pot.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:03 | 2751571 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Let's call a draw tonight.  If you want to duke it out later I'm game.
In the meantime, good tunes:


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:16 | 2751585 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Did it ever occur to you two old biddies that the rest of us don't care?

I'm going to take [George Washington]'s advice, and point out that you're hijacking the topic at hand.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:23 | 2751593 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:26 | 2751595 Prometheus418
Prometheus418's picture

Good on ya.

BTW, I don't hate you, LTER, or Crockett either.  You both have valuable things to say, when you're not squabbling. 

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 01:43 | 2751603 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Value is totally subjective....!

Totally off topic, but good tunes:

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 09:41 | 2752253's picture



Did it ever occur to you two old biddies that the rest of us don't care?


It would appear that not everyone feels that way. In this very thread Fonzanoon said: I am going to slowly back away now but it is interesting as hell watching you guys. I wish they had these kids of discussions when I was sitting in class paying thousands of dollars thinking I was learning something.


LTER, notice how I used documentation to make my point. It's as easy as that.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:06 | 2751425 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Casting pearls before swine, or, as it is commonly called, teaching a pig to sing.

Good for you since I just don't have the fortitude to do the research you just laid forth.

I think the few remaining brain cells I have just got fried....

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:32 | 2751370 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I enjoy all your posts. Everyone! You Guys remind me of that "South Park" episode @ Raisens.

 Quit the inbred Jed crap, and get along! Every Z/H poster has the balls enough to walk the (down arrow) rope!

  As a new poster, I can remember THE ," Learn it your self asshole" mentality.

Almost 2 years later I can't think of a group of people, (OTHER THAN), "  The exceptional Z/H contributers" , I would rather " Forge a new Beginning" With!

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 12:41 | 2753086 Chump
Chump's picture

Listen here you feriner peckerneck, no one shits on Jed.


Fri, 08/31/2012 - 00:28 | 2751541 yofish
yofish's picture

Why on earth would you spend so much time on such nonsense?

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 09:44 | 2752265's picture

It took no more than two minutes find, copy and paste. Just providing documentation; not a big deal.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:02 | 2751322 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture


That's cool.

I have faith in the system envisioned by the Founders.  The current version is a giant mess, but those guys actually lived in a time of the King's rule, and they came up with a viable alternative that is unmatched in efficacy as far as I know.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:07 | 2751333 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I am going to slowly back away now but it is interesting as hell watching you guys. I wish they had these kids of discussions when I was sitting in class paying thousands of dollars thinking I was learning something.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 22:56 | 2751404's picture



KRAMER: You got a problem with Woody Woodpecker?

GEORGE: Yeah, what is he? Some sort of an instigator?

KRAMER: That's right. He's a troublemaker.

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:05 | 2751421 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Are we trying to stifle disagreement?

Thu, 08/30/2012 - 23:11 | 2751437's picture

We are having a laugh. Nothing more sinister than that.

Fri, 08/31/2012 - 12:51 | 2753120 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

It's true, it requires a good sense of humour to maintain when you're on the wrong side of a game of '20-1'

(I didn't mean you specifically, of course)

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