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Guest Post: The Realities Of Choosing Your Survival Retreat Location

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Submitted by Brandon Smith from Alt Market

The Realities Of Choosing Your Survival Retreat Location

Unfortunately, having a ‘Plan B’ just isn’t the modern American way.  The great and diabolical misfortune of having two to three solid generations of assumed prosperity in one’s culture is the side-effect it has of lulling the populace into comfortable apathy.  “Prepping” becomes a kind of novelty; a lifestyle that people joke about while planning out their next vacation or their next suburban home purchase.  It’s something that others consider in that fleeting moment in front of the television while witnessing the news of a catastrophe on the other side of the world, only to be forgotten minutes after changing the channel.  Such things do not happen here.  Not in the United States…

I am a child of an age laden with illusory wealth, and have benefitted (for a short time at least) from the financial fakery of our economic system, as have many Americans.  Most of us have not had to suffer through the unmitigated poverty, hopelessness, and relentless fear that are pervasive in harsher days.  All our problems could be cured with money, especially government money, and as long as the greenbacks were flowing, we didn’t care where they came from.  Ultimately, though, the ease of our well-to-do welfare kingdom has set us up for a cultural failure of epic proportions.  Anytime a society allows itself to be conditioned with dependency, its fate is sealed.  

We do not know what crisis really is.  Many Americans barely have an inkling of what it entails.  We imagine it, in films, in books, and in our own minds, but the fantasy is almost numbing.  We lose sight of the tangible grating salty rawness of the worst of things, while imagining ourselves to be “aware”.  Most people today are like newborns playing merrily in a pit of wolves.      

Preppers, on the other hand, are those who seek to understand what the rest of the public goes out of its way to ignore.  They embrace the reality and inevitability of disaster, and suddenly, like magic, they are able to see its oncoming potential where others cannot (or will not).  The price they pay for this extended vision, however, is high… 

I see the prepper generation as a generation of sacrifice; men and women who must endure the collapse of the façade for the sake of an honorable future society they may not live to experience.  Modern day Cassandras?  Hopefully not.  But, certainly a group of people who have lost much in the path to knowledge.  We lose our blissful naivety.  That which once easily entertained us becomes banal and meaningless.  We set aside many of our dreams to make room for the private and public battle we must wage for the truth.  And, in the early days of our awakening, we tend to lose sleep.

The primary advantage of this otherwise complex life is actually simple:  we have a ‘Plan B’.

Independence, self sustainability, true community, and redundancy in systems; it’s all in a day’s work for the prepper.  But, one thing tends to sit upon our minds above all else, and that subject is ‘home’.  Not necessarily the home where we are, but the home where we will shelter during darker days.  Call it a retreat, call it a bunker, call it whatever you like, but every prepper has to have that place set aside that gives him the utmost advantage while facing off against calamities that normally annihilate average people.

Choosing a retreat can be easy, or so difficult it explodes your brain depending on how you approach it.  The problem I see most often with those seeking a back-up location for a collapse scenario is that they engage the process as if they are still living in 2006, hunting for their McMansion with a view on the sunny hillsides of Colorado or California, instead of thinking in practical terms.  So, to help clarify a more fundamental approach to choosing a survival retreat, here is a list of priorities that cannot be overlooked:

Property Placement

You may be searching for a homestead property or a more discreet retreat area for only the most violent disasters.  In either case, property placement should be your number one concern.  Where is your subject property located?  What are the strengths and weaknesses, economically, socially, and legally, in the state you are considering.  What is the disposition of the government and law enforcement in the county your retreat resides in?  What kind of environment are you surrounding yourself with?  These are all very important issues to consider. 

Even more important, though, are the dynamics of the land you are choosing.  Are you looking for a typical flat piece of developed farmland with easy access to roads and town amenities?  Then you are going about this all wrong.  Are you purchasing a cabin in the woods where you and your family will be isolated and alone?  Again, not very bright. 

The ideal retreat location is a combination of rugged terrain and varied topography that is just accessible enough, and set in proximity to like minded neighbors who will aid each other in the advent of a social implosion. 

It may feel strange to consider it at first, but try to think in terms of an aggressive party:  a looter, a criminal, or just a hungry refugee.  Now, take a second look at your retreat selection.  Is it easy to wander into?  Can a person stroll right up to the front door, or do they really have to spend a lot of time and energy to reach you?  Is it within sight of a major highway?  Is it in the middle of a funnel or valley which people would naturally take to get to a tempting destination?  Is it flat with little cover and concealment, or is it nestled in the midst of hills and crevices which can be used strategically?  How many routes in and out of the region are there?

Crops can be grown in any area with any climate if the correct methods are used.  Energy can be produced with a multitude of technologies and tools.  Structures can be built to adapt to the materials that are most abundant in the region.  However, once you commit to a particular environment and terrain type, you are stuck with it for good.  Choose wisely.

Community Network

As mentioned in the section above, isolation should NOT be the goal here.  The concept of the loan wolf survivalist waiting out the implosion with his family in a secret fortification is not realistic, or likely to work at all.  In the most volatile of collapses, such retreats only offer a tempting target for unsavory characters, from Bosnia to Argentina and beyond.  If you don’t have a community of preppers around you, you have nothing.

Ideally, choosing a retreat location, especially for a homestead in which you will be living on a day to day basis, should be done with multiple families involved.  The more preppers involved, the larger the perimeter of warning and defense, and the safer everyone will be.  It is not enough to have a friend or two on the other side of town, or to have a couple neighbors who are open to the subject of collapse but have made no efforts to prep.  A return to a true community foundation is the surest way to secure your retreat.  There WILL be people who will wish to take what you have in a crisis situation.  Your best bet is to surround yourself with people who already have what they need…

In Montana, I have used the idea of “Land Co-Op Groups”, expanding on the barter networking concept to include helping people of like-mind to meet and find property within proximity of each other, or to choose mutual retreat areas where there will be safety in numbers.  Explore real estate markets near family members who are on the same wavelength.  Talk with existing prepper communities and see if you might work well together.  Form your own group of land seekers and make purchases together, saving money for everyone.  Know who you will be weathering the storm with!


This has been mentioned in previous sections, but let’s establish what defensibility truly involves.  Do the natural features shelter you, or hinder you?  How many lanes of sight are near your retreat and will they work to your advantage, or someone else’s?  Is your homestead on the top of a wide open hill and visible for miles around?  Will attackers exhaust themselves attempting to reach you?  How much warning will you have if someone is approaching your location? 

Make sure your surroundings work for you.  Folds in the land topography not only off greater surface area for your money, but also cover and concealment.  Forget about beautiful views, perfect soil, and room for a gazebo.  Is the retreat actually protecting you or not?  If this single issue is not considered and resolved, nothing else matters. 

This is why I recommend starting from scratch with raw land if possible.  Many people dislike the notion of building their retreat or homestead from the ground up, claiming that there is not enough time, or that the project will be too costly.  This is not necessarily true, especially for those who plan the construction of their retreat around off-grid living strategies.  Raw land purchases, depending on the region, can be highly affordable.  Building using present materials, like native timber, reduces costs drastically.  And, as long as your house plans remain simple, construction can be started and finished within a matter of months. 

When building from scratch on raw land you have chosen using the guidelines already discussed, you can place your living quarters in the most advantageous position for defense, while being able to reinforce the home itself as you go.  For those using an existing structure, the job becomes a bit more difficult.  Additional fortifications will have to be planned carefully to adapt to the framework of the building.  Weak areas of the property will have to be strengthened using fences, walls, or strategically placed vegetation that frustrates approach.  High points in the terrain should be used to establish observation posts.  At every moment of the day or night, someone must be awake to keep an eye on the surroundings.  Respect the realities of a collapse, instead of disregarding them, and your chances of success increase a hundred fold.

Water Availability

Many would place water resources at the very top of this list, and having an ample supply is certainly vital.  Digging a well is a must.  Building in proximity to a stream, river, or lake is even better.  That said, rainwater collection is a viable supplement to weaker indigenous water supply, along with water storage done in advance of any event.  The average adult human being needs approximately 2.5 liters of water per day to survive comfortably.  The common vegetable garden needs around 2” of watering overall per week.  Bathing and general hygiene requires several gallons per week depending on how conservative you are.  It is important to gauge the water production and storage capacity available at your retreat.  If the math does not add up, and if rain collection is not enough to fill the gap, then move on.  Find an area that will sustain you with water, but do not neglect the rest of the items on this list just to be near a roaring river…      

Food Production

This is an area with far more flexibility than most people seem to realize.  With the right methods, a garden can be grown in almost any climate, and at any time of the year, even winter.  Every retreat should be fitted with a greenhouse, and this does not require much expense, or even energy to build.  Makeshift materials often work wonders and the cheapest greenhouses tend to supply as much produce throughout the year as expensive and professionally built models. 

Raised bed gardening is efficient, requiring less water, and producing more food than typical gardens.  Small orchards are possible depending on the climate and elevation of the property.  Wild edibles in the area should be cataloged.  Find out where they grow in abundance, how to cook and prepare them, and which edibles you actually enjoy eating.

Animals require at least some acreage.  Two acres being the minimum if you plan to raise several species.  Goats, chickens, and rabbits are much easier to squeeze into a smaller parcel than cattle or horses, and draw much less attention to your retreat.  A single milk producing cow and a bull, however, have the ability to keep your family healthy and fed for a lifetime.  The trade-off is up to the individual prepper.  The bottom line is, the number of animals you plan to raise determines the amount of open field you will need to clear on your property to provide the grasses and feeding area they will require.

Proximity To National Forest

Another aspect to consider is how close your property is to national forest areas or unclaimed and unpurchased acreage.  Perhaps you are only buying 5 acres of land in a well placed area which borders thousands of acres of forest service.  Not only have you purchased the use of 5 acres, but the potential use of thousands of acres through attrition, while guaranteeing that no unpleasant or unaware neighbors will move in too snug next door.  Abundant resources will be at your fingertips in a post collapse scenario, including timber, wild game, possible minerals, caching sites, secondary retreat locations, etc.  The advantages are numerous…

Secondary Retreat Locations

Never put all your eggs in one basket.  We hear that warning all our lives but few take it to heart the way they should.  I have dealt with many a prepper who has become indignant at the idea of having to leave his home to escape danger, claiming that they would “rather die” than have to beat feet to a secondary location.  I personally don’t get it.  Fighting back is admirable, but fighting smart is better.  There is nothing wrong with living to die another day, and this is where the multiple retreats strategy comes into play. 

Some survivalists live in the city, and have set up a retreat in an area distant but reachable.  Others have taken the plunge and uprooted to start a new life on the grounds of their new refuge, leaving behind the metropolis and sometimes even their high paying jobs.  In either case, they have done far more for their futures than the average American has even vaguely considered.  However, it is not quite enough…

Back-up retreat locations should be chosen in remote areas near your primary retreat, and very few if any people (even friends and associates) should be told about these places.  Keep in mind, these are last ditch survival spots.  They are not ideal for long term living arrangements.  Little if any infrastructure will be built in these places, and all shelter materials should be heavily concealed.  Caching sites should be set up well in advance and placed on at least two separate routes to the same location.  You should have no worries over whether you will be able to feed, clothe, and protect yourself on the way to the emergency site.  Hidden approaches to the area should be scouted ahead of time.  A viable water source should be present nearby.

Thinking Ahead:  It’s Pure Sanity

There are all kinds of excuses for not doing what needs to be done.  Americans have an ingenious knack for rationalizing their own laziness and inaction.  If you want to know how to get ahead in the world of prepping, or just the world in general, all you have to do is become a man or woman who makes a plan, and then follows through on it!  Welcome to the top ten percent!

One excuse that I do in some instances take seriously is the problem of the conflicting family.  We all know a prepper or two whose spouse or children are not on board, ridiculing or even obstructing their efforts.  When expenditures of cash (or large expenditures of cash in the case of a property purchase) are in debate, the tensions can be crippling.  In every disaster there are oblivious masses which make things hard on those who are aware.  From the Great Depression and Weimar Germany, to New Orleans after Katrina, it is not uncommon for people on the verge of starvation and death to still assume that government help is right around the corner and all will be right as rain. 

All I can recommend to those struggling with the survival-impaired is that you educate friends and loved ones on the nature of recent events like Katrina, or the economic collapse in Greece and Spain, or the tsunami and subsequent reactor meltdown in Japan.  Show them that this is real life, not a cartoon.  Make them understand that they are not immune to the tides of catastrophe, and that preparation is not only practical, but essential.

Survivalism is not a product of insanity; it is merely a product of our precarious times.  A disaster is only a disaster for people who are not prepared for it.  The only madness I see before me in our country today is the madness of those who believe themselves immune to the fall of the curtain.  The true “insanity” rests in the minds of men who presume tomorrow will be exactly like today, and that the comfort of their existence is law, a foregone conclusion, set in stone, forever…


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Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:17 | 2485145 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

Doomsday Preppers is my favorite new show.


The morons can keep watching Idol.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:19 | 2485150 drink or die
drink or die's picture

That show is entertaining, but the people themselves are idiots.  Rule #1 is don't tell anyone what you have (similar to fight club, as it's also rule #2).

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:22 | 2485172 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture


Some of them have the dumbest plans.  Like a foxhole dug beneath the garage?  How is that going to solve your long-term survival needs?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:27 | 2485195 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

Would it make a difference if I choose the Southern Hemisphere?

"It is no exaggeration to say that the fate of Japan and the whole world depends on No. 4 reactor."
-- Fmr. Japanese Ambassador to Switzerland Mitsuhei Murata to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on March 25, 2012

He is referencing the reactor at Fukushima Daiichi with spent fuel stored 30 meters (about 98 feet) above the ground. The fuel rods are in a concrete pool with 7 meters of water and a tarp covering them. There is no containment structure in place.

There are 1,535 fuel assemblies in the pool reported Phred Dvorak in the Wall Street Journal on May 21, 2012. Each fuel assembly has 50-70 fuel rods. (This means there is a MINIMUM of 76,750 fuel rods if Mr Dvorak's report is correct.)

TEPCO reported on May 25, 2012 that a 3.3cm bulge in the west wall supporting Reactor No. 4 does not pose a threat to the safety of the building or the spent fuel pool. Note, however, that the building suffered a massive hydrogen explosion on March 15, 2011 which resulted in the loss of a steel-reinforced concrete wall.

At the time of the explosion Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency stated that water in the spent fuel pool at the No. 4 reactor building may be boiling. Steam was observed at the time. TEPCO subsequently added steel and concrete support to the spent fuel pool in July of 2011.

There is no nearby secure facility to store these fuel rods. There is a common storage pool at the plant that has room only for an additional 465 rods, according to a May 28, 2012 article in The Asahi Shimbun.

So here we are: the spent fuel pool at Reactor No. 4, holding at least 76,750 fuel rods, is supported by makeshift supports, protected by a temporary sea wall and covered by some water and a tarp. The building which houses No. 4 lacks a major wall but is considered structurally sound.

Retrieval of all melted fuel is expected to take 20 to 25 years and full decommissioning of the four reactors is expected to take at least 30 years.

What could go wrong?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:38 | 2485282 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture

This is a good point.  I have a 300 acre farm all ready to run to when the time comes, but it's supposedly close enough to be affected by a nuclear power plant failure.  Makes me wonder if anywhere is truly safe.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:44 | 2485312 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

When the cooling ponds go.  It's the ugly monster in the woods there is no defense against.  I'm upwind, but only 11 miles away :(  .  They are our civilization's MAD devices.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:39 | 2486092 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

typical 1st world idiocy.


ask anyone from 3rd world who actually survived countries collapsing and they will they you there isn't much you can do about it except leave the country. Screw years worth supply of water, food, transportation, chaos, military dictators step up and you have martial law vs. revolutionaries supported by foreign powers. aka WAR.


only way to defend yourself is to leave hell.



Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:20 | 2486187 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

Yep, the only way is to leave hell.

And, pray tell, where will there not be hell on Earth?

You've got most of the world basing goods on the USD, which will be printed to "fight deflation" until severe inflation, if not outright hyperinflation, takes away the value.  Europe is soon to burst into flames.  A billion starving Chinese, along with the same amount from the Indian subcontinent, will pillage the Asian-Pacific area.

South America is already seeing dictatorial rulers in a lot of the countries and Africa the same, albeit with a little more genocidal bent.  Antarctica isn't very conducive to crops, even with triple-paned UV resistant greenhouses.

Where do you plan to go, Aldous?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:18 | 2486329 Vlad Tepid
Vlad Tepid's picture

So when your house is burning down and the garden hose goes limp, you won't go to your neighbors house because it MIGHT burn down too or because it's burned down in the past?  We're talking about present survival.  

I don't presume to speak for Aldous, but here are a few places that might be better in the long run:  Australia, New Zealand, Costa Rica,Panama, Chile, Peru, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Poland, and dozens of small islands in the Pacific and Caribbean, plus numerous other countries that might not seem so great on the face but that have such weak central gov't that tyranny will never be a problem.

But maybe it's more swashbuckling to pretend that you're a road warrior right up until the point that the SWAT team breaks down you door and takes all your gold/food/property/women and you either A) roll over and give them what they want (the historical response of 90%) or B) (like the other 10%) die immeidately during a meaningless and futile attempt at resistance which will in no way impede anyone from taking your gold/food/property/women.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 21:25 | 2486557 Dugald
Dugald's picture

NO NO NO do not come to Australia, we are already overflowing with undesirables, sucking on welfare and breeding like flies.....a future hell on earth, that our Grandchildren will have to deal with...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 21:25 | 2486558 Dugald
Dugald's picture

NO NO NO do not come to Australia, we are already overflowing with undesirables, sucking on welfare and breeding like flies.....a future hell on earth, that our Grandchildren will have to deal with...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:27 | 2486349 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

There are places I have seen in this great Country that calls to me.

Sure winters are a bitch with 6 months or more of snow in some of those places.

I have like minded neighbors around me and frankly that will have to be enough where we are.

A forest is good, but clear 100 yards around your home for purposes of defense with rifle/shotgun in addition to minimizing fire risk.

As far as Parks are concerned... there is one spot that I like very much which has everything except a shelter which can be built.

The only issue is that it is located near a National Facility that provides for our Nation and will be quite secure or target.

Some people choose to live near a target knowing they cannot survive in a post disaster hell.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 03:38 | 2486914 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Migrations is mostly explained by people following the places' resources.

As third world countries see their resources ship away, so the populations follow.

Same happened(s) for rural exodus.

Comparing a center to the periphery is fundamentally flawed.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:59 | 2486278 steveo77
steveo77's picture

SAD= species assured destruction

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 22:59 | 2486678 JeffB
JeffB's picture

You're always upwind?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:51 | 2485343 Shocker
Shocker's picture

The main idea, is just realize what is going on around you. Acting clueless or not caring is no longer cool.

Thats all pretty much, everyone is getting affected one way or another


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:46 | 2485601 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

"In those first years the roads were peopled with refugees shrouded up in their clothing. Wearing masks and goggles, sitting in their rags by the side of the road like ruined aviators. Their barrows heaped with shoddy. Towing wagons or carts. Their eyes bright in their skulls. Creedless shells of men tottering down the causeways like migrants in a feverland. The frailty of everything revealed at last. Old and troubling issues resolved into nothingness and night."   Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:41 | 2486215 akak
akak's picture

God that was one shitty book.

The premise was fascinating, but its execution into "literature" was positively execrable.  Not only was the nature of the devastating worldwide catastrophe in the book never revealed, but it seemed to have the effect of reducing conversation among the book's characters to sporadic monosyllabic gruntings.  Rarely have I come across anything (other than an editorial by Paul Krugman or Bill Kristol) that was as painful to read.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 20:46 | 2486503 Steverino
Steverino's picture

yup.. horrible read..


"One Second After" by William Forstchen is a much better read...

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 17:37 | 2487819 Watauga
Watauga's picture

The Road, by Cormac McCarthy, is among the great works of literature from the new millenium.  The film by the same name was also quite extraordinary, as films go.  McCarthy's book is a one of faith, hope, and joy, and functions on so many layers, or in so many dimensions, that it puts the reader full into the story.

If you want to read his best work, I strongly recommend Blood Meridien and The Border Trilogy (All the Pretty Horses, The Crossing, and Cities of the Plain).  These, when taken with his early years where his fiction was set more in Appalachian America rather than the Southwest, constitute the greatest body of work by an American writer.  While Faulkner, Twain, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald all contributed mightily to the world's literature, none has done it at the level McCarthy has done it at for so many years.  

So, no, The Road is not a horrible read.  It is an extraordinary read, and it is a book that tells us more about life and death and faith and redemption than just about any work in recent memory.  

Finally, I have read and enjoyed on a range of levels One Second After, Enemies, Foreign and Domestic (the trilogy), Lucifer's Hammer, and wide range of other apocalyptic literaure.  This is not what McCarthy was going after.  He was dealing with Man's soul, his faith, and eternity--he was dealing with Man's relationship to this world and to God.  

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:04 | 2489163 juangrande
juangrande's picture

Personally, I like "Suttree", by McCarthy, the best. Some folks on this sight do not appreciate subtle and nuanced approaches to anything. More into straight left brain stuff.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:33 | 2485818 aerojet
aerojet's picture

Nowhere is truly safe.  The cabin in the woods is not safe.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:43 | 2485882 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Sitting in an air conditioned, cozy bunker filled with like minded individuals and waiting for your drone flying shift to be over seems like it would be pretty safe...............

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:07 | 2486156 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Have good dogs, skynet is evil.

Does Dominos deliver there? I might be interested.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:46 | 2486250 CynicLaureate
CynicLaureate's picture

"Bunker is the prepper word for 'coffin'" -- Cork Graham


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:41 | 2486390 Henry Hub
Henry Hub's picture

The Japanese had a fantastic bunker system on Io Jima during WWII. The U.S. troops simply pumped barrels of gasoline down the tunnels. When they lit the match - instant BBQed Japanese bunker boys! No, bunkers are not the solution.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:04 | 2489303 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

When WW3 comes, gasoline will be too precious to waste on such a maneuver.

How well did that tactic work on Okinawa?

Wed, 06/13/2012 - 22:03 | 2524211 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

Well enough to win

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 22:18 | 2486644 mcguire
mcguire's picture

"nowhere is truly safe" >>>  

"And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” -Revelation 6:15-17


the only way to be safe is with Christ.  all men in that day will have either the mark of the beast or the seal of god.  no perfect prep cabin will help.  

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 23:53 | 2486727 JeffB
JeffB's picture

I don't see anything wrong with doing some planning, working on various contingencies etc., in fact I think it's a duty to self and family, but you are right that we shouldn't put all of our trust in such preparations. 100 years from now, none of us will be here. or 80? 60? 50? 40?

Another few verses:

And He said to them, Beware, and keep back from covetousness; for one's life is not in the abundance of the things which are his. And He spoke a parable to them, saying, A certain rich man produced well from the land. And he reasoned within himself, saying, What may I do, for I have nowhere I may gather my fruits? And he said, I will do this; I will tear down my barns and I will build larger; and I will gather there all my produce and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take rest, eat, drink, and be glad. But God said to him, Fool! This night they demand your soul from you; and that which you prepared, to whom will it be? So is he treasuring up for himself, and not being rich toward God. And He said to His disciples, Because of this I say to you, Do not be anxious as to your life, what you should eat; nor as to the body, what you should put on. The life is more than the food and the body than the clothing. Consider the ravens, for they do not sow, nor do they reap; to which there is no storehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much rather you differ from the birds! And who of you by being anxious is able to add one cubit to his stature? Then if you are not able to do even the least, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they do not labor, nor do they spin, but I say to you, Not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed as one of these. But if God so dresses the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much rather you, little-faiths? And you, do not seek what you shall eat, or what you shall drink, and stop being in anxiety. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need these things. But seek the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you. Stop being afraid, little flock, because your Father was pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give alms. Make for yourselves purses that do not grow old, an unfailing treasure in Heaven, where a thief cannot come near, nor moth can corrupt. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Luk 12:15-34)

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 01:32 | 2486827 Lord Koos
Lord Koos's picture

Oh Christ, not this crap again.

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 12:08 | 2489176 juangrande
juangrande's picture

I've been hoping and, yes, praying that Jesus will come ahead with the Rapture. I think taking his followers off of this earth would be a good start to our planets recovery!

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:06 | 2489307 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

I'm looking forward to the leaders leaving.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 20:29 | 2486472 Seer
Seer's picture

"Makes me wonder if anywhere is truly safe."

I found one place that I had thought was about as safe as one could find.  There's a nearby "lake," a huge one, and a couple of times in the past there had been some minor earthquakes that resulted in small tsunamis.  Really, just when you think you've researched every possible risks (away from large industrial sources; away from any significant military installations; no real earthquake activity; fallout winds were, for the most part, about as good as you could hope for)... a tsunami on a lake!  Of course, I wouldn't have been next to the lake, it was a ways away from where I was looking, but...

I ran out of energy trying to make it there.  Housing/property market went up (I even ran across someone on the Internet who had picked the area for all the same reasons- he'd sold his home in California).

If you have a 300 acre farm I suggest that you get working it NOW.  This isn't a matter of throwing a switch.

Don't do like the author suggests and treat this like it's going to be some "retreat."  It's ALL about venturing on a more sustainable path.  It's about starting new lives.  It's a new "permanent."

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 08:15 | 2487034 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

300 acre farm is useless without oil unless you just have some animals grazing. Those would be hard to defend.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 17:09 | 2487766 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

permaculture methods work fine with nature's animals. What is needed is practice, knowlege of a wide diversity of edible plants, and people you can trust. Agree that these are skills and data you should start working on now.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:55 | 2485362 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

I'm sure everything is just fine over at Fukushima.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:01 | 2485393 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Nice of TEPCO to report that as a "massive hydrogen explosion,"  while Arnie Gunderson shows how it had to be the fuel pool in #3 detonating (rather than deflagrating) after likely achieving recriticality.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:23 | 2485766 oldman
oldman's picture


Sorry, Alea,

we are full up, but maybe Asia is still open---and the Basque coast is beautiful and the people are SUPER! The Southern hemisphere is full exccept

I believe the waiting list is still open for Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa

Nice cultures and people and great climate

Good luck you are headed in the right direction                    om

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 00:23 | 2486773 laosuwan
laosuwan's picture

Countries in the South Pacific---including Fiji, Tuvalu, Vanuatu and Niue--- are especially susceptible to natural disasters. Cyclones, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, floods, landslides and droughts can have devastating effects, particularly on farmlands.


Vanatu. Good choice there, friend

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 08:16 | 2487035 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

South Africa? You need an armoured car with flamethrowers on the side now.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:38 | 2485851 OpenThePodBayDoorHAL
OpenThePodBayDoorHAL's picture

Yep I chose the S. Hemisphere. May I suggest you consider the nation of Vanuatu. Abundant food, water, & services, good laws set up by Australia. Freindliest natives, voted "happiest people on Earth". 83 islands, the main one and the capital packed with Aussie and French expats. French bakeries, cheeses, and wines in the stores. No taxes of any kind (apart from sales tax). Broadband internet, cellular, and power that runs 80% on local palm oil. Rocky enough terrain to be above global warming rises, I'm 7 meters above MHWM (mean high water mark) and could go much higher. 2 1/2 hours to Sydney.

C'mon down! Find me in chat of you have questions.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 21:50 | 2486600 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

You hit it dead on, southern hemisphere is the place to be.  In fact I would love to go to Argentina, Pantagonia would be a great place to set up shop.  Look, I feel that there is a a dark and big problem swimming under the dark oceans of our economy and our environment.  We can't see it, but we know it's there from the waves it makes and the seagulls flying away in mass from spots in this ocean.  We are heading into a very very bad situation and many americans aren't geared for it.  Because we have been turned into adult babies who are coddled and told that it's okay to have everything you want and desire without regard to sacrifice and time to do it.

Preppers is a good show, I like it.  I just think that being a prepper in the US is going to be a very tough thing to be because people in our country (most not all) are mentally and emotionally unstable.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:26 | 2485214 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

That was a short term "bug in" plan, if I remeber they had a long term "bug out" location picked out.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:32 | 2485249 BlueCollaredOne
BlueCollaredOne's picture

Correct.  Their bugout plan was their boat.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:33 | 2485257 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Didn't they scout out some islands?  Maybe a cache or two?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:41 | 2485293 BlueCollaredOne
BlueCollaredOne's picture

Yes to both.

They also were experience fishers, and had devised a way to turn the salt water into fresh water.  I think they were one of the best prepared families on the show. 

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:46 | 2485320 UP Forester
UP Forester's picture

My first thought to the boat plan:  WTF happens when they get to the dock, and their boat isn't there?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:08 | 2486160 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Leave EARLY. Those who panic first, panic best.

Thu, 06/07/2012 - 02:54 | 2502501 Rusty.Shackleford
Rusty.Shackleford's picture

if you're the first one outta the door, that's not panicing 

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:33 | 2485253 CommunityStandard
CommunityStandard's picture

Must have missed that part.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:47 | 2485326 Michael
Michael's picture

See something say something.

Sheriff Stan Barry of Fairfax County Virgina would become the most famous Sheriff in America overnight if he would take his forces to the Westfields Marriott and investigate criminal activity there.

Call Fairfax County Virgina Sheriff's office and report criminal activity at the Builderberg meeting.

Multiple violations of federal law are taking place there, specifically of the Logan Act.

Sedition and treason are being perpetrated by elected government officials, one namely Senator John Kerry at attendance plotting criminal activity against the USA.

Call Sheriff Stan Barry, demand he do his duty and arrest those Federal government officials for violating US Law!

This is also criminal activity perpetrated by the Builderberg people.

Bilderberg Members Discuss Killing Ron Paul

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:52 | 2485347 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Didn't you mean "See something slay something"?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:55 | 2486266 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Yes, those Bilderbirgers, Tri-Laterals, and CFR'ites must truly fear and hate "open borders/free trade" Ron Paul. Soros without the K-pareve.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:03 | 2486148 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Logan Act, Shmlogan Act.  As long as our puppet politicians serve the Rothschild banking cartel, they don't need to worry about a barbarous relic like the constitution.


Tyranny Bitchez!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 00:18 | 2486770 laosuwan
laosuwan's picture

I called the sheriff and told him I wanted a Builderburger with cheese, no onions, and a large coke (while they are still legal)

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:30 | 2485509 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

A hole beneath the average mcmansion's slab would be a decent fallout shelter.   To survive in the long run you have to not die of radiation exposure in the short run, or zombie bites, come to that.    Fire is kind of a problem with the under the slab hideout.    Still, in case of an EMP type disaster, a prepper could be better off staying put and lying low for several months, even in their suburban mcmansion, given enough prep for water, food, hygiene, and relatively silent self defence tools like, oh, crossbows and edged weapons.    Why: most of the population would be dead within three months, and the rest would be in bad shape.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:45 | 2485591 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

an EMP event would cause cascading grid failure which would send every reactor on their own separate path to fukushima type event


no point even prepping for that

how are you going to survive through thousands of years of nuclear contamination?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:31 | 2486359 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

No need to try to live a thousand years.

You will need to circulate Air, have a water cistern (An outfit in Texas specializes in it) and adequate means of processing body waste, sick call and a military type routine to stave off boredom.

However at some point you will want the sun on you. Or something like it.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:12 | 2485688 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"A hole beneath the average mcmansion's slab would be a decent fallout shelter."


1. Need a method to filter out contaiminates from the air. and any shelter must be airtight to prevent contaminated dust entering the shelter. A shelter should maintain a positive air pressure.

2. Water. You need a method to provide contaimnation free Water. Nothing that at least some radioactive fallout will be water soluable which cannot be remove using standard water filtration system. You need either a high pressure reverse osmosis or a chemical proccess (like ozone treatment) to remove the soluables.

3. You can't burn contaimated wood inside your shelter for cooking and heating using a wood stove. The smoke and ash will contain contaminates. You need either an outdoor wood furnance for heat so the ash and smoke remain outside. Food needs to be cooked inside the shelter using either electricity or propane to remain uncontaminated. One must avoid exposure to internal radiation at all costs.


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:24 | 2486058 juangrande
juangrande's picture

Most people never really get it.... that they are going to die anyway. Why try to hammer out a few more years in an environment like that? If it goes that way, I go with it.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:36 | 2486221 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

when you make your peace with reality - and reality includes the chance of "death" in any moment - then you are free to feel gratitude for every day you have.

I realise this sounds like a Hallmark card - but beyond sugary platitudes there is the basic truth - life is always borrowed time, make what you will of it while you can. 

I agree with you, if mass disaster, chaos is the norm, and it will eventually *find* you - the best prep is your mind.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:00 | 2485656 Lester
Lester's picture

Really almost Too Late to be buying property, much less considering the ideal location...

Survivalists of the late 70s perfected the mode.  You locate "out of the line of fire" and away from the meandering masses that might escape the urban areas.  Better to be where you won't need to carry a folding AK-47 and constantly wear a tactical attack vest full of loaded magazines.  Self-Sufficiency is the ticket.  Skills, Tools, Capabilities, Confidence...

Buying crap like cigarettes, liquor, and creature comforts to "trade"?  Not a good plan...  Really need to be able to hole-up and let the dust settle before you wheel & deal.


Gotta keep Warm & Dry, Hydrated & Fed, and be Capable Of Self and Property Defense.

Gotta know how to cook from scratch and understand NUTRITION.  Gonna rely on cases of freeze-dried food and MREs?  That food is okay for an emergency or several days on the move, but a steady diet will screw with your digestion and do nothing to build your immune system and general health.  Got beans & rice?  Best know that white rice has -0- food value as it is Pure Starch.  You want brown rice for its nutrients and to combine with beans to be a Complete Protein. 

Got a water source?  Got a well?  Got long-lived method of water purification and filtering? 
Got medical gear & supplies?  Not pharmaceuticals; talking homeopathics, herbs & tinctures, reference books, and confidence to stitch or close an arterial wound?  SuperGlue works really good in lieu of suturing.  Got vitamins?  What you're gonna be eating ought to Build Health, not cause it to deteriorate...  Macrobiotics worth looking into.  Miso Soup of Dark Brown & Red varieties was eaten by Hiroshima and Nagasaki survivors & did much to minimize detriments to their health from radiation exposure.  Many testimonies of cancer and other dread disease recoveries attributed to Macrobiotic Diet.  Worth a look; probably find a book or two at your library.

Library is a great resource.  Diet For A Small Planet, Where There Is No Doctor/Dentist, Foxfire series, back issues of The Mother Earth News & HomePower Magazine, Handloading manuals and Gunsmithing references.  Maybe find Survival Guns & Tappan On Survival while you're looking.  Cookbooks too, Esther Dickey Passport To Survival and other basic compendiums.

Resales are great place to get gear, especially used reference books.  Got manuals for your vehicles and tools to work on them?  Got oil and fluids up to date?  Got safe place to store fuels and keep them from being stolen?

Fukushima is a reality.  Can you grow sprouts?  Really need to have food and supplies on hand so your not dependent upon growing & hunting/fishing in first year or two.  Not gonna be a lot of game to rely upon.  Chickens, rabbits, and other small animals are easy to raise and breed.  Probably want a greenhouse and cold frame type structures to grow any food if you are in path of the Jet Stream.  Most are in North America...

Water is a biggie.  Cooking facility that isn't grid dependent is a biggie.  Composting toilet or other waste disposal is a huge biggie.  Got a septic system? 

Very few properties out there that are Ready To Go, or will be ready with minimal effort.
Good luck finding one and making your security needs a reality....


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:29 | 2485796 oldman
oldman's picture




Best advice I have read on ZH in a long while.

Good luck to you, brother

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:11 | 2485985 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Sorry. Ignore this post read my next

but gotta say something, you are nuts! Get real medicine not shit that you believe works...get antibiotics and real pain mess.
White rice is perfect. It keeps well and give 4 calories per gram,get your vitamins in a pill. Load upon other empty calories like cooking oil and alcohol too!
This is starvation we will be fighting not proving who has the hippest diet!!!
If money is tight I'd go with rice, oil and TVP with dried milk and other legumes. Splurge with big of pre cooked stuff. MRE ...great for a month. My suggestions get you in for a dollar a day @2200 calories and enough protein (balanced)
That's right...10 people 1 year less than 4 grand..downside is cooking required and no variety... So plan ahead and learn to cook TVP curry !

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:51 | 2486260 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

pharma - "real medicine" is not everyone's first choice.  even if it IS yours, you can still make use of cures that existed before pharma, and work fine when used with knowledge - I'll say that from direct experience - I'd rather depend on medicinals that I can grow, make, store over time, than rely on corporate drugs that have proven to not interact well with many people's body-systems.

if you do the research, you'll find that such easy to obtain, and grow, things as garlic (anti-bacterial, fungal, etc.), hydrogen peroxide (amazing properties for pennies a day usage), clove oil, eucalyptus oil, elderberry tinctures & tonic,  just to name a few, can deal with infections, abscesses, bug bites, lung issues, pain, so many things.

it really has little to do with "the hippest diet" - merely making continued use from what you can grow or forage for yourself.

as to the white vs. brown rice topic - white doesn't go rancid as quickly as brown in long term storage - however, brown is superior in nutritive values:

as always, to each his own.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 17:23 | 2487790 tip e. canoe
tip e. canoe's picture

don't forget the mushrooms ;~)

Wed, 06/06/2012 - 13:44 | 2500114 Silver Bug
Silver Bug's picture

Sadly this is something people need to start thinking about.


Charms and Beads

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:15 | 2485986 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Sorry but gotta say something, you are nuts! Get real medicine not shit that you believe works...get antibiotics and real pain mess.
White rice is perfect. It keeps well and give 4 calories per gram,get you vitamins in a pill. Load upon other empty calories like cooking oil and alcohol too!
This is starvation we will be fighting not roving who has the hippest diet!!!
If money is tight I'd go with rice oil and TVP with dried milk and other legumes. Splurge with big cans of pre cooked stuff.RE great for a month. My suggestions get you in fore a dollar a day @2200 calories and enough protein (balanced)
That's right...10 people 1 year less than 4 grand..downside is cooking required and no variety... So plan ahead and learn to cook TVP curry !
Apologies but this is on a cell phone

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:32 | 2486363 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

You cannot get pain meds. The Docs hold on the scrips with tight fists.

That is the one issue that we are dealing with and frankly prepared to do without.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 20:22 | 2486459 WolfePaq
WolfePaq's picture

Lester is right- you are wrong

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:22 | 2486043 NumNutt
NumNutt's picture

yep I am there, I have been living in my "prepper" facility with my family for 6 years now, have whole house generator, animals, MRE's, garden, all on 12.5 acres. My fall back plan if some local reactor has an issue and I need to get out of dodge is a 1.5 hour drive to my 30 foot sailboat that is always ready to go, actually spent the past wekend on it. So fuck the world, if it goes really bad me, and the wife and kids (and my bag of gold) head 180 degrees south.......Oh and yes I have been working on my spanish...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:04 | 2486293 steveo77
steveo77's picture

I got that bug out property, it is nice to have.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 17:46 | 2487828 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Lester--No AK or AR?  No tactical vest loaded with full mags?  No tactical 12 gauge?  Dang.  You take the fun out of this stuff.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:50 | 2486258 DCFusor
DCFusor's picture

No real prepper would ever allow themselves to be on that show.  Several have been arrested for things the camera happened to catch...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:38 | 2485278 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

Introducing zombie talk into the subject generally cheapens it and it's astonishing how often this happens.

100,000 hungry people streaming from a 1 million person city are not zombies.  They are smart, they are the 10% toughest and have the most gumption of that city, and they will overwhelm you and your preparations and take your food.

THAT is what to think about.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:53 | 2485324 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture



zombie talk into the subject generally cheapens it

Zombies are allegorical, except for that naked, facing eating, drug addict in Miami.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:48 | 2485607 LFMayor
LFMayor's picture

It always starts that way.  With one.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:52 | 2485625 Arkadaba
Arkadaba's picture

And this Canadian guy who dismembered his victim, apparently ate some body parts and sent others to Liberal and Conservative headquarters:

Also saw a headline that he tried to get on a reality tv show - why doesn't that surprise me

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:03 | 2485330 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


100k no way, 10k or less.

Most will never give up the familiarity of their area.

You think you will see 5k Blacks headed to the woods? 5k Asians or Hispanics?

Ain't gonna happen.

Most of the 10k will be dead in a week or so anyway. Then another half within six months.

What you have left are the hardcore who are JUST then learning to survive. Another ten to twenty percent die off after the first five years.

Those are the ones you need to fear. The ones who last five years or more.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:04 | 2485414 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

With respect, Gully, I disagree.  In this scenario we call TEOTWAWKI, they (the 10%) will come.  For food, WATER, and places to bunker down and survive.


Maybe not the blacks, Hispanics or Asians, (well, MAYBE the Asians...) But NEVER underestimate the determination of White Trash.


The Hispanics can make any place a home.  God Love 'Em.


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:12 | 2485446 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Again, most people will never move away from what they know.

The majority who do will die out rather quickly do to lack of survival skills.

The only ones to fear are the mean ass sonofabitches who can make it five or more years.

They have learned how to deal with the new normal. They have no compassion and are interested in only filling their needs.

Put a hundred rats in a cage with few rescources and observe just how many live after a week.

Same idea.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:35 | 2485546 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

It's somewhat not debateable.  We have the New Orleans precedent.

10% of those who didn't pre evacuate tried to do so after the event.  It was the 10% with gumption and who were young and tough.

Anyone you face is the toughest of the tough.  We're arguing numbers here, I know, but it is numbers that overwhelm the armed enclave types.  You might want to keep in mind those hardy types are trying to save their families.  They will pass by national guard armories on the way to your enclave.

Armed enclaves are simply not the way to survive.  This is a forever scenario.  Not a few weeks until "order is restored".  

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:40 | 2485563 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


New Orleans was relatively safe.

I doubt that compares to something like a real long term breakdown.

What happened in the Soviet Union and it's satellites after the fall of the wall?

Did you see the vast herds leaving Moscow?

Try researching places like Bosnia.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:04 | 2485664 malikai
malikai's picture

In most of the sattelite states, it wasn't the unwashed hoards of theives you had to worry about. It was the new government forces seeking to redistribute resources and people. There is no defense practical against this. I'd say the best bet is to GTFO.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:16 | 2485716 Agent P
Agent P's picture

If you're around in five years to greet them, then you're obviously a meas ass sonofabitch yourself, and they should fear you with equal respect.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:50 | 2485928 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Gully will be fine - the man's got PyrE.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 17:37 | 2486088 juangrande
juangrande's picture

Gully, the point about hispanics is valid. They've been leaving what they know for generations and for the last 20 yrs. endure hell to get where they want to go! Especially the Hondurans, Guatemalans, and any one else who must pass thru Mexico on the way!

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 03:50 | 2486934 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The majority who do will die out rather quickly do to lack of survival skills.

The only ones to fear are the mean ass sonofabitches who can make it five or more years.

They have learned how to deal with the new normal. They have no compassion and are interested in only filling their needs.

Put a hundred rats in a cage with few rescources and observe just how many live after a week.

Same idea.


Same idea? How? One is an artificial US citizen controlled experiment, this other is an artificial US citizen uncontrolled experiment.
It shows how US citizens has that natural requirement to cling on power, due to their high level of injustice.

The best part is that US citizens keep being acted by their fantasies.

They plan for the grand finale but keep excluding from their ravings the actions of the most concerned US citizen population, that is the US citizen middle class.

The largest chunk of consumption comes from the middle class.

One US citizen called for the new master piece with a comics on zombies.

I read the first pages. One of the laziest scenario ever, even by US citizen standards.

The collapse happened brutally, in a matter of months. And everything collapsed.

In reality, what is the situation? US citizenism has allowed a very large concentration of wealth into the hands of the US citizen elite. They own much more than they consume.
They do not need the state etc

And they will keep their power games up.

And one could analyse the situaiton for the poor.


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 08:25 | 2487040 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Same in China and the US ruling class does not have direct control of the army, police etc as they do in China

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:48 | 2485908 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

They crossed a desert on foot, to wash your dishes.  They will be fine. 

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:07 | 2486299 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

Actually, the mestizos were brought here by the Jews (blacks having proven to be a low-IQ disappointment, Reggie excepted) to exterminate and replace los Gringos. Systemic Crash is part of the Overall Plan: pure Survival of the Fittest. So many scores to little time.  

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:37 | 2485842 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"100k no way, 10k or less. Most will never give up the familiarity of their area."

Unlikely, as resources deplete, probably within 2 weeks of a collapse event, large numbers people will leave the cities in small groups and gangs. Also consider that some people will have no choice but to leave early, because of fires started by riots or just people burning stuff in there apartments to stay warm burn down entire blocks. When they have no home, they will leave. Most apt. building are unlivable during the summer time without AC or NO ventialation and no working plumbing. People will leave much earlier than you anticipate. The stench alone will drive many people to leave. Just hours after  Hurricane Katrina passes, People were leaving the area. many on foot. to escape the city.

The first places the golden horde will flee to is the suburbs. The last places they well flee to is rural and remote locations.

Also consider a slow grinding Collapse, where people flee before the collapse happens. For instance large numbers of New Orleans residence left before the storm hit. In a slow grind collapse, people will relocate as crime grows and job opportunities vanish. We can see this already happening in some states like California and Michigan where large numbers of people are leaving.

FYI: Here is a map showing where people are leaving and where they are moving to:



Sat, 06/02/2012 - 08:28 | 2487042 mjk0259
mjk0259's picture

Cool map. I don't see people running to Montana/Wyoming etc to hide. Just moving to Florida, probably old people retireing.

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 12:11 | 2487239 AGuy
AGuy's picture

True. My point was simply that in a slow grind people appear to be leaving the big cities. At least those with bleak job opportunities. People are not likely to stay put when bad times come.

FWIW: I don't have any plans to relocate to Mt/Wy either, but I am in the process of relocation to a rural region. Since I am no means an expert farmer, I perfer to locate to a more temperate region. The further North you relocate the more challenging it becomes to grow food. Late Spring\Early summer frosts or early autumn frosts can wipe out an entire seasons crops. Better to relocate to a region where weather related risks are less.


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:59 | 2485391 mtomato2
mtomato2's picture

That is exactly what I have been telling my neighbors here in the mountains north of Atlanta.  Sure... we're safe...  from the FaceBook-addled minions...  It is those who killed all of them and made it up here that I am worried about.  THOSE are the ones I genuinely fear.  If they fought that hard to get OUT, can I fight back that much harder to keep them from getting IN!?!

I'd rather fight the zombies.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:21 | 2485471 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


The advantage you have is knowing your area.

Keep your escape routes open and be prepared to fall back.

I often joke with family that I would dump them in the decoy house. The one designed to draw the hardcore in, little food and lots of alcohol, the death trap.

Keep in mind that many rovers will only travel so far. Minimal distance. They will establish themselves. They want comfort just like everyone else.

Whats left are the very few hardcore who either choose to live by scavengeing and violence, the mentally ill ( including the sadistic the sociopathic and psychopathic as well as your everyday schizophrenics), and plain old drifters.

They would relatively small bands. They would tend to be underfed and suffering from various obstacles, like cleanliness and disease.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:57 | 2485951 Marginal Call
Marginal Call's picture

Y'all on the east coast are forked.  In Nor-Cal, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming is where you need to be.


It's big, it's wet, and it's empty out here.  That's about 20% of the country area wise and only 3 major cities.  Half the people are preppers already by way of thats just how you survive out here.  Probably not a lot of coin stackers out in ranch land though.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:14 | 2486320 CompassionateFascist
CompassionateFascist's picture

No, there will be some deadly Big Bands: think fusion of ex-military with Hell's Angels and the like. Only fairly large feudal domains led by alpha-males would survive that kind of assault. I think Larry Niven - in Lucifer's Hammer - got it about right. Solitary individuals, even small groups of preppers will be killed off as surely - if not as quickly - as the urban masses.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:43 | 2485582 10mm
10mm's picture

Work those scopes,reach out and touch.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:59 | 2485392 dbomb12
dbomb12's picture

And that is why your plan MUST be to travel light like the desert nomads do and learn to live off the land. Because if a real full blown catastrophe occurs you will not be able to stay in one place and defend it on top of that.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:01 | 2485394 gaoptimize
gaoptimize's picture

Bullshit.  After the first line of bodies hit the floor, and then are mounted and displayed as a warning, the Golden Horde will seek a softer target.

It is the renegade law enforcement and evil prepper warlord wannabes who are arming up and making plans to go offensive that I'm worried about.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:18 | 2485474 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


That was funny.

What about the ones who simply burn your property to the ground.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:34 | 2485543 Hulk
Hulk's picture

What if your property can't burn ???

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:40 | 2485572 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


Well then third piggy, what is your property constructed of where there is nothing flammable?

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:03 | 2485649 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Cut into the granite with geothermal heating like mine perhaps?

(Don't you just hate it when GoogleEarth outs your TEOTWAWKI crib... :)


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:57 | 2485955 BooMushroom
BooMushroom's picture

You're you going to facepalm here, but there is a delightful children's tale called "the three little pigs," wherein a big, bad wolf attacks several little pigs in turn. In the story, the first two pigs are not afraid of the wolf, and make their houses out of straw, and wood, respectively. The third piggy (get it yet?) makes his house out of bricks. While the story does not state if they are mudbrick, clay brick, concrete brick, or cinder block, I'm sure any of them would work. The wolf (ALLEGORY!!) attacks the house, but due to its construction, is immune to his attacks.

High desert. Cinder blocks. Earth-sheltered anything. Caves. Underground bunker. Materials like this would not be able to be burned down, blown down, or hulk-smashed.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:01 | 2486285 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

earth shelterd anything, good for maintenance of even temps, adobe / cob bricks for work in desert climates - but water is essential.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:23 | 2486191 hamurobby
hamurobby's picture

Vlad made an impression on his invaders. I doubt many today will have the intestinal fortitude to continue through the fly hoards.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:32 | 2485529 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

"Zombie" comes into it because preppers would need to de-humanize most of the rest of humanity in order to survive.    The genre is popular because of that expectation of splitting the world into two extremes, living allies and good-as-dead threats.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:52 | 2485898 Excursionist
Excursionist's picture

The toughest 10% with the most gumption, while outliers in today's society, were much more common if not the majority in Western states as recently as 100 years ago.  But let's backtrack even further, say 150 years, to a state like Colorado.  There was crime.  Lots of it.  Antibiotics were not yet invented, so if you came down with something nasty, Darwinism ruled the day.  You either made it or you didn't, and life expectancy was quite low by today's standards.  People actually had to produce to consume (what a concept!).  Or turn to crime to consume.  Despite such harsh conditions (relative to today's easy standards), people organized themselves in such a way that afforded a 'normal' life.  By 'normal' I mean people didn't have to look over their shoulders every minute of every day to see whether a bad guy or an army of bad guys was about to pounce.  They farmed, mined, raised livestock, performed services for others in outposts, towns and cities.

A theme I've read in this post's comments is that some people expect conditions to revert to those of Colorado circa 1860 if the big debt reset were to occur.  Yet society marched onward back then, didn't it?  Perhaps I'm naively optimistic in this thinking, but I believe a post-apocalyptic scenario akin to Mad Max would not actually come to pass.  People have a tendency of organizing around their self-interests, which in the case of municipal, state and / or federal government failure would encompass food, shelter, clothes, and medical well-being.

The only reason wandering bands of gun-toting criminals got away with their actions post-Katrina was twofold:

  1. The adept, sane people with vested interests in continuing their membership in society cleared out of Dodge and were not present in meaningful numbers to deter criminal behavior;
  2. The adept, sane people with vested interests who stayed behind did not wish eventually to incur the authorities' wrath by proactively deterring criminal behavior.

Look at what happened to the handful of police officers who deemed it necessary to pick off looters, rioters and general miscreants.  Order was eventually restored in New Orleans, and the officers were prosecuted for shooting unarmed civilians.  No doubt the families of the deceased painted woeful pictures of police inequity when their good, wholesome, law-abiding sons mysteriously found themselves in the crosshairs of rogue policemen, who for inexplicable reasons shot their church-going exemplars of community.  Yeah, right.

But what if everyone understood that order would not be restored after a reset-type event?  At least not the type of order to which we're accustomed today?  I'm fairly confident that you would see average citizens begin to enforce order of their own, and this apocalyptic scenario many people have in mind from watching way too many bad Hollywood movies would be an exception rather than the norm.

To be intellectually honest, I have to concede the reasons why my optimism could be misplaced:

  1. Population density is much greater than in the 1860's, thereby making basic survival conditions more desperate today.
  2. Citizens' expectations are drastically different.  Average people back then didn't deem themselves entitled to much if anything.  Today it is the opposite.
  3. Basic survival skill sets were much more common back then, so desperation was not as quick to set in - desperate people are capable of anything.  I like to think of myself as capable and able to handle a gamut of situations, but the reality is that I sit in my ass all day watching monitors and shuffling money in the form of 1's and 0's from place to place in the hope of making more 1's and 0's.  I couldn't start a fire from scratch if you held a gun to my head.  My guess is I'm representative of today's majority with respect to survival skills.

As always, time will tell whether my thesis is right, or even has a chance of becoming right (i.e., the big reset must first occur).

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:20 | 2486336 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I agree with many of your points; however, the picture you paint of the New Orleans police force(ing) is not consistent with much of what I've read, certainly not all were, shall we say, noble.

Officers were indeed prosecuted for killing unarmed civilians, and for theft, among other things.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:13 | 2486319 Papasmurf
Papasmurf's picture

They may even snack on your face for eighteen minutes while on surveillance camera.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:34 | 2486367 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Hopefully sufficient bodies stacked in the driveway will take care of that issue.

Just need diesel and oil to cremate them before they do kill you via sickness.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:22 | 2485175 carbonmutant
carbonmutant's picture

You'd think that would be obvious after one of his customers already got ripped off...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:23 | 2485191 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

I would like to recomend, which is loaded with lots of great information.  Look in the archives for tons of good info. 

The more remote the bug out location is, the more concerned you should be about security of your cabin and preps.   Ideally you would move to the hills now, if you feel the collapse is coming.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:40 | 2485289 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

read the book, waiting for the reality show....

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:57 | 2485377 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


dude, I wouldn't recommend anything to anyone. The first places the government will visit are those common to the herd. They will know what you bought, what you read and understand all the advice given then turn it against you.

Every president since Bush has escalted US powers. Obama allowed the right to kill US citizens without trial. Romney will be the first to use those powers on US soil.

The first groups they go after are the Survivlaists.

have you seen the recent stories? The Mountainman thing? The Prepper in WA state who killed his family?

They pick the fringe first. Much easier to paint them as crazies, Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Next they move into cities. read about what happened to MOVE way back when, whole city blocks were destroyed. Matter of fact research all the times US troops have been used against US citizens. Scary shit.

Anyway the genpop will feel safe with an armed presence on every corner.

Then after the first generation everything starts returning to the new normal. A much more limited choice of items, nbut not overly so. Trade needs to keep going, profits need to be made. You can't decrease buying power to Zimbabwe levels without some place else to pick up the slack. India just ain't ready for that level of consumerism.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:05 | 2485420 dbomb12
dbomb12's picture

Gully is right on, if you were to prepare do it like you were expecting a hurricane, everything after that is extremely unpredictable especially with a Govt gone wild

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:15 | 2485459 Alea Iactaest
Alea Iactaest's picture

Topic: "Stay Put or Bug Out"

Which would you choose and why?

Have you thought about travel logistics?

Travel by car? What do you use for fuel? Alone or in convoy?

Travel on foot? What do you do for protection? How do you deal with unseen dangers? Forget the zombies, have you thought about robbers? How about snipers?

How do you protect yourself in a traveling camp? What do you do at night?

How do you carry supplies? How do you replenish?

If you stay how do you defend?

What do you do with waste?

How brave will you be when a recon squad in full tactical gear comes knocking on your door to take a census or requisition supplies?

How tough will you be defending your home against a trained team with body armor, night vision, advanced weaponry and back-up?

How do you hide signs of human homesteading activity when people looking for you have heat imagining and/or satellite analysis?

Face it: you are expendable, especially if you are not compliant.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:46 | 2485594 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Alea Iactaest

For the unprepared, stay put.

Lots of homes to loot within the vicinity.

After the first wave of rats, sorry scared people leave then plan to move.

You want to time so there are still enough resources around you to distract those left. And to give you some wiggle room.

The real killer is those with zero percent body will be the first to die. When they starve nothing for the body to burn except muscle, which further weakens them.

Those will be the desperate fucks to avoid.

Any way, if you time it right you can bug out while the first group is falling apart and before the second wave decides to leave. The second being more desperate.

Then as long as you are faster then then next guy you can beat the bear.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:36 | 2486378 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

I have some 255 grain hardcast for bear.

I don't plan on fleeing, health issues wont support it.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:26 | 2485503 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


That's the problem with most people they think too linear.

They don't thrive on chaos.

Ever read the ones who have a bugout bag hidden in the closet or trunk? Ever wonder what they would do when they can't get to it?

Wouldn't it be better to dig a hole and bury your shit somewhere where no one will stumble on it. Or pick any number of abandoned buildings to find a safe stash.

Same with weapons. What happens when you have no gun, or run out of ammo, or the gun jams. You are in the shower and someone breaks in, you John Wayne with a gun in the tub with you? Same with toilet.

What if someone sets fire to your house. Will you stay and burn or run out? What about the garage or barn? Do they burn or do you leave your safe zone to put out the fire.

Most people are way too linear and can't think like the other guy. Especially the ones with no moral compass, to put it mildly.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 18:25 | 2486196 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

I always take a .45 to the shitter with me

Sun, 06/03/2012 - 13:46 | 2489379 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

You could just hide an extra one in the toilet tank.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:38 | 2486385 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Arson is a defense to prosecution of attacking with intent to use deadly force.

Believe it or not, we have masks and fire fighting items in the home. It wont be pretty but the first to go will be the stupid fuck that threw the firebomb.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:23 | 2485193 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The people that are selected for the show are also purposefully chosen because they are idiots...  as in, no amount of "prepping for the camera" is not going to make them seem completely outlandish.  If you'll notice, each episode ends with a narrator saying "but this prepper's fears are unfounded."  My favorite response is the one about hyperinflation...  "the FED does not think this is a likelihood."  lol...  maybe you guys need to ask someone else.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:38 | 2485243 francis_sawyer
francis_sawyer's picture

 "The people that are selected for the show are also purposefully chosen because they are idiots"


That about says it all right there... Wanna know true survival skills?

Dick Proenneke is your guy...

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:39 | 2486383 TomGa
TomGa's picture

The only problem with Proenneke's setup is that he was resupplied with staples on a regular schedule by a bush pilot with a float plane. He wasn't completely self-sufficient but that's something to be expected at that lattitude.  Proenneke had even flown in black plastic to help contruct his roof and bags of cement to build his fireplace.

Can't knock a single thing about him, though. And I'm completely envious of the opportunity he had to live way out there and to rely almost solely upon himself....


Sat, 06/02/2012 - 17:14 | 2487779 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

the FED is right, when it blows there will be no likable hood

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 14:39 | 2485275 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

Rule #3: Don't post on FB. ;-). 

As a GA college student arrested by the ATF found out the hard way. Although from the comments on the link, she will be getting a lot of marriage offers from the locals...

"Her public Facebook profile show several pictures of Savage with her fire arms. 'I despise all law enforcement and any governing authority,' her Facebook profile states."

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:26 | 2485500 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Another thing many people forget - not being too dependent on firearms! It's good to have it, especially if you have to defend yourself, but always have a second option. I'll give you 2 reasons:

1. Eventually you run out of ammo. No matter how many rounds you've purchased and stored, after a while you run out of additional supplies (also the ammo you might have stored has an expiry date, so the chances for misfiring increase with time);

2. Much better to hunt with a silent weapon. You won't scare off the entire forest, so you have a chance to take down a squirrel in case you miss the deer (at least you won't have to go to bed hungry).


You have a number of possibilities to choose from: bow & arrow, blowgun, crossbow, crotch gun, even shurikens... Most importantly, get it in time and learn how to use it.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:41 | 2485568 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

The police will protect us. Just calmly dial 911 and wait for a response.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:39 | 2486388 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture


911 records your last words.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:50 | 2485620 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture


I rarely see anyone mention trapping, Blowguns,slings or atlatl.

Shuriken are meant to be destraction weapons allowing for escape.

Learn to use something like a Yawara or better yet how to make anything on hand a weapon.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 16:24 | 2485765 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

Shurikens are a deadly weapon if you know how to use them, but as with any weapon it depends on the size of the animal you are hunting and the distance between you. 

I've never learned trapping, it's not very common where I come from. I've seen hunters using mechanical jaw-traps, but I would never use anything like that as it cripples the animals and makes them suffer.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:42 | 2486393 TomGa
TomGa's picture

"...but I would never use anything like that as it cripples the animals and makes them suffer"


Lol. You've never ever been desperately huingry, have you?

Sat, 06/02/2012 - 04:40 | 2486958 ThirdWorldDude
ThirdWorldDude's picture

What a stupid statement for a person who doesn't even know who s/he's talking to. You are the best indicator why this fucking civilization is going down - full of hubris, arrogance and self-righteosness.


If you want to survive, I'd advise you to go back and adopt your forefathers' ways bitch! One thing you might discover is their respect for nature and keeping the balance within the eco-system. That includes not eating tortured animals, as their flesh is soaked in the animal's endorphines and cortisols, and by eating that meat you make yourself much more susceptible to illnesses. The standard reap-sow procedure...

Read and cry, douchebag -

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 21:23 | 2486553 Retarded Rabid Elk
Retarded Rabid Elk's picture

I live in Canada... We are allow to own semi-automatic pistols and rifles, but blowguns, shurikens, nunchuks, are all prohibited weapons.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 22:01 | 2486622 HungrySeagull
HungrySeagull's picture

Hell some People trained and skilled in Martial Arts including Semperfu should be treated as weapons as well.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:44 | 2485587 GoodMorningMr.V...
GoodMorningMr.VanRumpoy...'s picture

Not a local, but I'd marry her.

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 19:01 | 2486276 Bawneee Fwank
Bawneee Fwank's picture

I say all gun lovers in my state of Georgia go down to the Hall County Jail and demand her release...FREE CELIA SAVAGE!! FREE CELIA SAVAGE!! FREE CELIA SAVAGE!! FREE CELIA SAVAGE!!  The Hall County Sheriff can tell the feds to kiss his ass!  What we need in this country is for local sheriffs to stand up against the feds!

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:12 | 2485448 Shock and Aweful
Shock and Aweful's picture

No shit...

Not to mention, they seem to dig up some of the most ridiculously weird and / or filthy rich people to put on that show...

Its really nothing more that the main street "info-tainment" complex poking fun at anyone who seriously plans on preparring for a collapse  (in a strange, round-about way)

They find these people...make a spectacle out of them...and make them look semi-ridiculous so that the rest of the people out there, who are not 'prepped" at all can laugh at them

and say...."God...those people are nuts  - could you imagine living that way?"

And I totally agree with your statement that a TRUE prepper would NEVER...NEVER...NEVER tell anyone about his/her setup and plans - especially not a national audience.

What a crock of shit TV is.


Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:20 | 2485479 Common_Cents22
Common_Cents22's picture

they are idiots.   when SHTF, where is the first place people will go to access food and water stores?   

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:20 | 2485483 salvadordaly
salvadordaly's picture

one in Kansas City just got 21 months of jail for his bomb making skills he showed on the show.

One other one I watched had a pot plant growing in the back ground while doing an interview on the show. "The seed guy who was collecting all the seeds for nuclear fall out reasons."

Brilliant I tell ya!

Fri, 06/01/2012 - 15:36 | 2485551 halibut
halibut's picture

the preppers whoring themselves on the boob tube just want their 15 minutes.....ironic

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