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Guest Post: The State As A Fantasy

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by James E. Miller of the Ludwig von Mises Institute of Canada

The State As A Fantasy

If there were a prize for the best “do as I say, not as I do” politician, the latest winner would be California Senator Dianne Feinstein.  Senator Feinstein, who is currently leading a crusade to plug the White House’s recent spring of classified military leaks, is the Chairwoman of the powerful Select Committee on Intelligence.  Because of her position of power, she has become “deeply disturbed by the continuing leaks of classified information to the media.”   In other words, Ms. Feinstein finds it appalling that the American public is finding out about the not-so-glamorous doings of its own government.  Her scorn for disinfecting sunlight has inspired her to call for the prosecution of Wikileaks founder Julian Assange for espionage.

This talk of super secretive government would be all fine and good for a minion of the security state except for one thing: Senator Feinstein is one of the biggest leakers in Congress herself.  And it just so happens that her husband has benefited financially from contracting with the U.S. military.  For all her talk of protecting the American people, Feinstein is just another well-connected thief in the societal racket known as the state.  As Salon’s Glenn Greenwald trenchantly observes:

That the powerful Senator who has devoted herself to criminally punishing low-level leakers and increasing the wall of secrecy is herself “one of the biggest leakers in Congress” is about as perfect an expression as it gets of how the rule of law and secrecy powers are sleazily exploited in Washington

In the scum filled world of politics, unscrupulous behavior is a permanent fixture.   It’s why the rule makers go out of their way to convince the voting public that its best interests are being taken to heart.  The vision of a righteous government is sold to the people not just on Election Day but everyday thereafter.  As long as voters stay complacent in the fantasy that their elected representatives are fighting the good fight, outspoken critics of the state will remain a minority.  No amount of shoddy logic, guilt tripping, or blatant lies will awake the masses before it’s too late and all previous memories of freedom have been violently stripped away.

The truth is suppressed by the fantasy being continually force fed to the public, not just by politicians and their teleprompters, but by the a vast portion of the media which acts more like a squawk box for the state itself rather than an independent observer.  The New York Times, the supposed great standard-bearer of journalistic quality, recently admitted that its stenographers and reporters allow their writings to be contorted by the same public officials who they claim to cover objectively.  These reporters, so desperate to get a few words with any government official, are willing to give full discretion on what is reported right back to the people whose interest lies in manipulating the information the public receives.  As the Times article reveals:

From Capitol Hill to the Treasury Department, interviews granted only with quote approval have become the default position.

The unconscionable behavior of the political class should be thought of as a contagious disease that infiltrates any industry that comes within influence of the state.  Government contractors, lobbying associations, favored corporations, and even the press all seek to use the monopolized power of government to further their own interests.  Instead of attempting to roll back stifling regulations, many of these firms simply wish to get in on the spoils of the great extortionary scheme.  The results are always the same.  Politicians pretend to be saving the people from cold-natured capitalism while politically-connected businessmen and bankers act as if their commercial success is completely of their own doing.  The hidden truth is both act in tandem to fleece the average taxpayer.

The fantasy then continues unabated.  As F.A. Hayek recognized in The Road to Serfdom, central planners and their intellectual patrons achieve their power by gathering the

“support of all the docile and gullible, who have no strong convictions of their own but are prepared to accept a ready-made system of values if it is only drummed into their ears sufficiently loudly and frequently.”

No matter how many times government policy fails to deliver on its promises, the reasoning stays the same:  Politicians just need more tax dollars to spend goods into existence, central bankers need to print more money, human rights must be stripped away to ensure safety, consumers need to spend more and save less, and government will always know best.

Today as most major economies are taking a turn for the worse, news outlets are filled with the pleas of esteemed intellectuals for further monetary stimulus and spending.  Even those economists generally considered in favor of markets are looking to central banks, which are given a totally non-free market government grant of privilege, to induce a boom in lending and demand through printing money.  As Pater Tenebrarum pointed out, it appears that Federal Reserve is close to announcing another round of monetary expansion.  The Telegraph’s veteran economics commentator Ambrose Evans-Pritchard even went as far as to pen an editorial titled “Weimar solution beckons as manufacturing crashes in US Fifth District?”  No one seemed to ask the more important question of “since when does destroying a nation’s currency and setting the foundation for the rise of a murderous regime actually help out manufacturing when all is said and done? “

Even the man on the street, unlike Evans-Pritchard and his money-crankish peers in academia and print media, realizes that adding to the stock of currency does not add to society’s overall stock of wealth.  More paper dollars, euros, yen, etc. isn’t the same as more foodstuffs, personal computers, and cellular phones.  When Zimbabwe’s stock market was skyrocketing to heavenly heights in 2007, the inflation lovin’ crowd must have looked on with delight at the uninhibited fruition of their favored policy.  Grandmothers carrying wheelbarrows full of cash to the supermarket to purchase a few loafs of bread meant nothing in the face of accelerating GDP figures.

But again, the fantasy at play here is the idea that the state can create something out of nothing with the magic of the printing press.  But as history proves time and time again, unbacked credit expansion always sews the seeds of its own destruction as the boom must inevitably turn to bust.  The real beneficiaries of newly created fiat money isn’t society in general but, as Murray Rothbard notes, “the State, State-manipulated banks and their favorites” who are first in line to receive the currency first.   Proponents of central banking must spend a good deal of time concocting nonsensical explanations to ensure the overall public realize how ripped off it really is.

At no place in time were governments ever formed with good intentions in mind.  This is the unvarnished truth as opposed to the fantasy world that is indoctrinated first within public school classrooms and is repeated in various outlets until old age.  The state being a burden on society is a universal principle that transcends through all governmental levels and sizes.  It was recently reported that a thirteen year old had his hot dog cart shut down by city officials in the city of Holland, Michigan.  Because of zoning restrictions aimed at protecting already established restaurants, the boy, Nathan Duszynski, saw his small enterprise succumb to the crookedness of local government officials.

Now just think about this for a minute.  A thirteen year old was savvy enough and had the foresight to purchase a significant amount of capital to start a modest business.  When most kids his age are sitting in front of the television, Duszynski was gaining real world business experience.  His customers didn’t say no to his effort; the government did.  The public is typically told that zoning laws are for their own safety when quite the opposite is true.  Zoning laws, like practically any decree that stems from closed-door dealings of politicians, are to the benefit of some individuals at the expense of others.

Mr. Duszynski, by virtue of his entrepreneurship, has already accomplished more productive-wise than any lifelong bureaucrat or politician.  It is this writer’s hope that the shutting down of his small business will serve as a lesson for him in that he won’t buy into the fantasy that the state exists to provide peace and liberty.


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Sat, 07/28/2012 - 13:52 | 2659123 reader2010
reader2010's picture

You always have the option to leave where you don't like to live.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:08 | 2659146 percyklein
percyklein's picture

Does this sound simple and practical to you? For whom? The thirteen year old hot dog seller? How in good conscience can you mouth such crap?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:53 | 2659234 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Hat tip to Mr. Miller!

A perfect recap to our situation. A must read.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:56 | 2660104 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture

Welcome to the pyramid of EVIL, a mountain of wealth, crime, theft and corruption built on the foundation of good honest hard working citizens, where your captors will bite, claw, kick, stomp, even elbow you in the face to keep you inprisoned in poverty and slavery and licking their buts

Time for the citizens to take the law into their own hands...

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:18 | 2659372 r00t61
r00t61's picture

It's Simon "Sovereign Man" Black-style advice for ya.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:24 | 2659374 derek_vineyard
derek_vineyard's picture

i'll leave if you give me a large bag of gold.  all i can carry with 4 people

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:40 | 2659403 Michael
Michael's picture

I'm OK with voting out all incumbent congress critters and voting just for Obama in November. I'm voting against incumbents in the August primaries too.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:34 | 2659453 Michael
Michael's picture

The problem is the general public giving their power away to a central bank to begin with like in 1913. We must realize it's the peoples power the politicians are giving away to private concerns, when it's not in our elected representatives power to take our power away through their actions.

The people should have a class action law suit to close the Federal Reserve and restore the peoples power to coin money at the congressional level.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:06 | 2659488 economics9698
economics9698's picture

People need to understand that if the central bank can print all the money they want then they can afford to buy all the politicians they want.  There will never be democracy as long as we have a central bank.

This does not mean the central bank gets involved directly in politics, that would be beyond stupid.  It can do it indirectly under the cover of the FOMC directing buys at their favorite clients.

Anyone notice that with the exception of Ron Paul when there is a politician that understand s the Fed and votes for smaller government they get booted out of office?

Its bull shit and it will not stop until all 8,400 tons of gold are confiscated and sold to the public. 

Hang the central bankers, or worse.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:11 | 2660082 Bendromeda Strain
Bendromeda Strain's picture


This does not mean the central bank gets involved directly in politics

But Mayer Rothschild said he cared not who made our laws. It would crush me to think he fibbed a little.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:18 | 2659442 nmewn
nmewn's picture

They want your social security number now for a visa, not a requirement but they assure us that the process will go quicker and we may even be denied for not giving it.

You see, the number is not meant to be a people tracking number...they even said so when they passed the law...its just a number to show you are entitled to all these wonderful SS benefits.

So, if I'm leaving the country, why again do they need it?

Disclosure...I've had a visa (in my real name) for decades.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:14 | 2659551 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

under the Hire Act you will be required to post an amount equal to 30% of any funds you attempt to transfer overseas until IRS is satisfied taxes have been paid on those funds. your SS # will be most helpful to this process comrade!


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:37 | 2659571 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Its incredible isn't it...the government who openly counterfeits its own currency, is very concerned about someone who came about theirs honestly.

It becomes the parody of the evil banker foreclosing on the family farm at some point.

Yes comrade...we have miles to go before we sleep ;-)

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 19:59 | 2661103 Element
Element's picture

Can't have the cattle wandering around free, back to the farm with you, we need some beef.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:19 | 2659167 CH1
CH1's picture

You always have the option to leave where you don't like to live.


That's an empty slogan, serving a single purpose: To excuse yourself from facing the subject.

Go to Germany - the same. Sweden - the same, Israel - the same. Pick another - the same.

The state rules (read 'enslaves') everywhere, more or less the same way.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:04 | 2659248 Rusticus
Rusticus's picture

"The state rules (read 'enslaves') everywhere, more or less the same way."


If you're looking for less, there's always Somalia.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:09 | 2659260 CH1
CH1's picture

Actually, you mean Somaliland, and those folks are under massive state pressure to conform.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:19 | 2659274 Rusticus
Rusticus's picture

No, if I meant Somaliland I would have fuckin said so.

No need to conform in Somalia, yes there is an income tax, but it has been impossible to collect.

Sounds like libertarian nirvana.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:34 | 2659298 CH1
CH1's picture

Tell ya what, you keep defending the state as long as you wish.

The bottom line is that in my panarchy world, none of us would force you to live our way.

In your world of states, we are violently forced to live your way.

States are moral degenerates, and that's what you're defending.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:11 | 2659358 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

Corruption is corruption regardless of the window dressing - what rights do you have anyway? Rights that forefathers fought for whom yanked rights from native Americans who thought they had rights because they were born somewhere. If you want change, eventually you'll have to organize people and if you able then you have to find out if you wont become corrupt with power at hand

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:33 | 2659393 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture


Why should a person be forced to live according to some fucking connections in another persons head.

Only an ant could accept being a slave to some electric currents in another brain-certainly no human could.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:39 | 2659308 Clint Liquor
Clint Liquor's picture

Small Government does not translate to no government.

But that is the way of Collectivists, if they don't control everything they control nothing.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:05 | 2659345 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Hey Max, new avatar? Can't let Somalia go can you? 

Get a life.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:31 | 2659391 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

You must possess an intellect of dizzying proportion, to have distilled all possible permutations of human existence, down to a bipolar world of governance, consisting of either the USSA experiment, or Somalia. JHFC you must have it all fucking figured out

The State appreciates your attempts to convince others that they are better off with that boot on thier neck, so they'd better just get use to it.

Anarchy is devoid of RULERS, not rules. Somalia is not anarchy. Somalia is a direct result of our foreign fucking policy. It is the direct result of YOUR fucking consent to instututionalized theft.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:39 | 2659402 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Well said!

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:31 | 2659491 falak pema
falak pema's picture

...Anarchy is devoid of RULERS, not rules... (just forget Somalia and empires for a minute).

rule 1 and no others in an anarchial society where we all live as masters of our destiny on our trees or in our caves : survival of the fittest until he is no more. WHich is sooner than he thought. As he is not immortal nor his progeny.

Why did man leave the trees and the grottos? To invent other rules, as he needed community. And in community it got more complex, beyond rule #1.

Rule #2 became: golden rule. Do unto others...

Now, the trouble starts. Nobody has same interpretation of it. We needed a referee...

It can't be GOd he is never there and anyways my God is not yours!

So whose the referee to decide in unbiased way between Joe and Jack?

The founding fathers called it government; elected by we the people. 

But now you want to  junk it all...we are back to having to go back to the trees, 'cos if we live in community we will need a referee. So anarchy is fine if we live in trees not in community. 

Rinse and repeat...this is getting tiresome.

Some people have ears but nothing between them...empty space no grey matter.

They should have stayed in the trees. While we go from rule #2 to rule #2000.

Its called civilization and it applies even to a golf course where you push a ball into a hole.

Funny that we need rules and referees even for such silly things. Thats because a golf course is communal living. Now if we all had our own golf courses...we'd be oligarchs not people.

So anarchy only works for gods and oligarchs, not for people in community, as they being mortals and having no serfs to work for them, coalesce under fear, being scared to die on their own. That's part of rule number 1 getting mortality. 

But to understand that you have to play golf. Now that sucks. Why did I leave my tree? and start to think and to feel fear?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:58 | 2659527 Observer
Observer's picture

Yes, we require rules for a community to thrive and a referee to implement a majority agreed set of rules or even better a 2/3 rds majority or more which is not so hard if we can use the grey cells you refer to as basic law is not so complicated and neither is interpretation. How do we handle differing interpretation? unto others as you would like done to you. If things are spelt out humans still understand it though it looks as if it is not going to stay that way for long with the long term poisoning of kids through "education" so we have a state enforcing rules they dream up or rather their masters the central banks dictate rather than referees implementing a majority agreed set of rules. Worse, we don't even have a say in choosing the referee perhaps because there is a sizable minority of people who think like you do who are enough to swing the required votes that the kleptocrats want

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:08 | 2659549 g speed
g speed's picture

+1 --all people pretty much think alike and have a ingrained "doctrine of fairness"--sociopaths (and other govt sycophants) excluded.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:10 | 2659539 g speed
g speed's picture




No doubt you've been educated by the state as you think entirely with-in the box. Thats the same shit discourse I used to hear in the 1960s when the tenured collectivist poly-si/econ profs used to rant against Rand and how we need rules instead of free markets. 

Wake up--gov'ts are becoming obsolete. 

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 00:27 | 2659885 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

now that's some funny shit!

though on the opposite side of the argument about "anarchism" from Falak, he, as opposed to yu, has demonstrated a willingness(and more importantly - an ability) to think independently of the herd here...

it is yu, sir, who are entirely within the box...and yur reference to Rand betrays the presence of he whose misunderstanding of the difference between the authentic opponents of statism and the phony prophets of the pharisees' neo-trot program is the perfect illustration of how goydom got into the mess it finds itself in today...

but at least yu have had the courage to state yur piece...the feeble fingered folk whose only facility is playing with their [vote]buttons are always driven to distraction by the presence of those who have grown out of the need for approval before setting their own course in the choppy waters of the fight club...their humorless existence milling about in the shadows of mediocrity is a lesson as to the perils of too much stroking of the keyboard and too little exercise of the synapses!

Sail on Falak Bey!

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 02:25 | 2659937 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

This is big leap you make. Your criticism of Rand is fair. She seemed unable to make the leap from the State and its monoply on coercion, run by society's criminals, to a more morally justified system which mitigates coercion and violence through voluntary interaction, with unlimited risk/liability to the downside.

It is every bit fair as fair as G Speed's appraisal of leftists, who fail badly at their attempts to eviscerate Rand, in the usual fits of ignorace (of Rand), and cacauphony of logical fallacy. While you seem prepared to toss the baby/bathwater, Rand's philosophy remains intact. Her portrayal of the machinations through which the unproductive Oligarchy gain control of society, and means of resistance thereof are, with few exceptions, THE roadmap.

In short it is entirely possible to exalt Rand's IDEAS, yet still oppose The State, and be logically consistent. No taking welfare is not logically inconsistent. You have every right to reclaim your property from the thief that stole it.


Sun, 07/29/2012 - 05:40 | 2659991 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

indeed squire...we all have a right to our opinions, and to express them free of the dross of half-baked assertions that concentrate upon the putative lacks of the presenter to the exclusion of examination of the idea presented...,were Falaks' [probably mistaken]musings upon anarchism to be critiqued for their content, in other words, there would be not any great issue taken with g-speeds spiel...

however, that spiel seems emblematic of the [definitely]mistaken notion that all criticism of "objectivism" comes from the 'left.'

It does not.\ *

A far more serious and damaging demolition of the kloset-trots konjob comes from the authentic anarchist continuum that takes issue with both wings(objectivism&libertarianism)of the moneypowers' misdirection of potential resistors into the kamp of the enemy. Mr G would be well advised to get his knowledge base up to speed in that direction, before dissing authors's of considerable more heft and substance than he has heretofore assembled. Then perhaps he could effectively deconstruct the ideas of his opponent, rather than merely indulge in spurious assertions of no significance to the central topic.

*while having no association with the ideas presented there, or presenters, I find Dick Eastman a fascinating contrarian voice in the fine tradition of an Eustance Mullins, and enoy seeing elements of truth presented from whichever direction they come.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:47 | 2659579 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

rule 1...survival of the fittest until he is no more. WHich is sooner than he thought. As he is not immortal nor his progeny.

Might makes right. Humans engage in free exchange using logic and reason so we don't have to resort to force to achieve our ends. Community does not give one the right to coerce others. Again...this is why we engage in free trade.

Rule #2 became: golden rule. Do unto others...Nobody has same interpretation of it.

The only relevant moral interpretation is to not initiate force. PERIOD.

The founding fathers called it government; elected by we the people.

The founding fathers who decided everyone was equal except slaves? Appropriate.

But now you want to  junk it all...we are back to having to go back to the trees, 'cos if we live in community we will need a referee. So anarchy is fine if we live in trees not in community.

You are the only one talking about junking it all and living in trees. How exactly would "junking it all" result in returning to trees and caves? This is a false choice, and you have no proof to back up this assertion. I however have centuries of evidence of government impeding human progress. I have 100 years of government killing over 200 million of its own citizens. I am merely pointing out the paradox arises from failing to check your premise with regard to initiation of force, which is the only method available to government. Is only a monopoly on force is capable of resolving differnces among two people engaging a voluntary association? If people are so biased and corruptible?, why allow a monoply on force consisting of a small group of people

Some people have ears but nothing between them...empty space no grey matter.

Argumentum ad hominem. Your admission of your own inability to face the the evidence, and therefore, defeat, is accepted unconditionally. Thanks for playing.

RE: Golf and referees

Last time I played golf, there wee no government appointed referees, and golf was a game played voluntarily.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:13 | 2659608's picture


Sun, 07/29/2012 - 04:24 | 2659970 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I've played golf in municipal courses all over the world, as in private ones. THe "government" of these courses is private but it is there nevertheless, effective every day,  and you don't do what you fancy. You respect the rules of the game which are numerous. Don't hide in the dust of semantics or you'll be chasing shadows not substance. 

We need regulation in collective living. 

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 06:19 | 2660000 Andre
Andre's picture

To compare a golf course to our current legal situation is a straw man argument at best.

Rules, to a point, make sense, but they are not an unalloyed good, even with (sometimes, especially with) vigorous enforcement. Put it this way - every Jew, Gypsy, Slav, trade union member, homosexual, and so on that died in Hitler's camps died according to the laws (rules) of the time. Same for the people who died in the camps in Russia, China, Cambodia, and so on.

And how safe are we from this? "If you see something, say something."

"I see... He's a smoker and I don't like smokers. He's a terrorist."

I see... He's making time with that really hot chick I want to hit on. He's a terrorist"

I see... I don't like my spouse. They are OBVIOUSLY a terrorist."

And so on.

The worst of it is, it actually makes interpersonal violence easier. You don't need a firearm, a knife, a bat. Just a phone call, and it's all handled no fuss, no muss. No need to face them in any way, and your tax dollars will take care of them.

We have so many laws that "ignorance of the law is no excuse" has a very hollow ring to it. I wonder if a lawyer could even list all the regulations that have the force of law governing his office - and this is a person whose whole professional effort is devoted to the law.

I'm no Christian, but even I have noticed this civilization has surpassed itself in empowering the seven deadly sins. While slightly OT, think about it:

  • Much of this site is devoted to exposing the greed of the rulers.
  • Pride - "We're better than you, so the laws don't count" Corzine
  • Malice - See above.
  • Sloth - One more reference to "Dancing with the Stars"
  • Envy - If they didn't think it would sell, Obama's team would never have some up with that line "You didn't build that."
  • Lust - got a Russian bride yet? How about those penis/breast enlargement ads?
  • Gluttony - The fact "they" are all up in arms over obesity kinda says it here.

The overall point is, we have gotten to the point rules do not guarantee safety or public order.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 08:03 | 2660042 falak pema
falak pema's picture

...we have gotten to the point...

That's my whole point, just like on the golf course you have laws and a constitution in the USA. Its all there and its a precious heritage. If it doesn't work its because the PEOPLE have lost it! They allow the corrupt to rule in THEIR name!

All it takes is for 300 million US citizens to require that democracy works again and rule of law prevails. Its forty years or more of public apathy culture that has allowed big business and crony capitalism to run the show. Only way out : the people have is to get INVOLVED once again on the side of  requiring public probity. As this has not occurred for a long time, its going to be a LONG painful experience to relearn becoming aware politically and then acting accordingly, taking responsibility and becoming active citizens of a renovated country. Nobody does it for you, freedom has to be won through collective will and respect of one's OWN rights. 

This whole theoretical debate on this thread is a symptom of DENIAL by the people on ZH to assume their collective responsibility as citizens, escapism by putting all the blame on STATE!

THe state is what YOU make it mate! Put the blame on Mame! 

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 08:22 | 2660048 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

falak, you mean the under 100 IQ crowd? the problem with democracy is one long recognized..give idiots the vote (we do) and see what you get..hint we got it now. the mob is called a mob for a reason or do you not agree.

just limiting the vote to men would have prevented the nanny state get it the "nanny" state of well meaning over protective gov we got today. hard facts but true none the less.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:13 | 2660079 falak pema
falak pema's picture

thats a debate on which Churchill said his seminal words : democracy is the worst of systems barring all others. If you prefer philosopher king, the rule of the elite, you can get Napoleon or a watered down version; like Charles de Gaulle, or in the USA, like Lincoln or FDR. These guys were all eminent statists who thought they new best. Montesquieu and de Tocqueville got it right on both sides of THAT debate : have state, keep it democratic on some fundamental issues, keep it elitist and republican on others; but for God's sake keep it in separation of powers mode. As crony oligopoly power is the WORST of all worlds...and we are there! These guys have made Marx pertinent again and that is an awesome epitaph to have history bequeath on their version of financialised oligarchy capitalism.

The libertarian point on this thread is : getting rid of the state altogether and we'll be OK, is just hopium and dopium. Its not even the verdict of history IMO.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:28 | 2660094 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture


Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:30 | 2660096 falak pema
falak pema's picture

one word dogma. Look at yourself in the mirror and say it one more time.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:01 | 2660416 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Well, after more than a decade into the 21st century, democracy has shown itself to be the current WORST form of government.

Churchill's words belie the fact that all governments operate the same way and all governments are evil. Government picks winners and creates losers, it destroys people's lives and livelihoods for the benefit of the few. It always has, it always will.

"The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."  Thomas Jefferson

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:23 | 2659615 nmewn
nmewn's picture


When the "rule makers" become corrupt it breaks down. People wander off in their own directions or "dispose of" the corrupt among them. 

It has always been thus.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 04:28 | 2659967 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I know thats human nature. But you can't change it, you have to live it by regulating it through laws and to impose laws you need referees called government. We don't live in never-never land anarchial utopia. 

Building Ideology "cul de sacs" is also man's recurrent disease. Lets stay pragmatic and live with our warts. And do housecleaning when the government elite gets corrupt.

The missing link to this whole thread in the current crisis of civilization is that THE PEOPLE OF THE MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH HAVE FORGOTTEN THEIR CIVIC SENSE, in material pursuit of selfish aggrandisement.

That's where we are today. Its the collective will to impose basic simple ground rules that is missing is western civilization. If the people in power in two party complacency and crony capitalism have expropriated power beyond limits to themselves its the fault of the people for not having exercised their rights to stop the rot earlier on. We deserve our leaders in a democratic system, by very definition of the individual vote principle. 

This makes life VERY EASY FOR THE OLIGARCHS.  As we all run around like individual blind mice. 

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 08:50 | 2660063 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I think you misunderstand me, as I have said before, I'm not an anarchist.

I also have an open revulsion of pure democracy as did my forefathers.

You have no doubt heard the quip/joke that democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding whats for dinner...well thats true. The outnumbered will "die" without the protection of fair law, so constitutional republics are a better form of self governance by consent. In a democracy law is made on the whims of the majority. A constitutional republic constrains that majority so it doesn't abuse the minority.

Originally (here) thats the way it its not, its closer to a democracy and all the baggage that entails with an ill informed and/or self interested public.

DeTocqueville was right.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:22 | 2660441 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I used to be an anarchist, but I noticed my drivers license name did not say God.

I have no more right to force others into anarchy than they have to force me into government. That's why I support panarchism.

Monopolies are bad, so is a monopoly of government and of type of government. It's time in mankind's development for each person to choose their own government, or no government at all.

Political freedom should join religious freedom as a right.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:02 | 2659592 Offthebeach
Offthebeach's picture

All those damn Somalis and their slavish devoting to Rothbard, Cato Institute, frigg'n. C-Span junkies, naming Mogadishu's main drag Koch Avenue! They just frugged the whole place up! Mussolini sets up a nice socialist central planning economy and the Somalians toss it in the dust bin of history for a flat tax and open carry.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:18 | 2659168 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Why would I leave my land, where I was born, because of monsters?

I will not leave.  They will leave. 

Their time is passing, and mine is arriving.  My species has already defeated theirs.  It's all over but the bank runs.

I have silver bullets, and I will not be moved.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:55 | 2659236 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

Another tip of the hat to you, sir!

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:09 | 2659258 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

Thank you, Mr. P.

I have given up on all the world,

but not on Zero Hedge.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:11 | 2659360 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture


REALLY ????  What species do you belong to apart from the eternaly corrupt human race? 

Silly will leave...when you die and your bones bleach.  The monsters will simply reproduce and abide.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 06:23 | 2660001 Andre
Andre's picture

Which makes YOU which race, and thus, as you say, "eternally corrupt"? And, as "eternally corrupt," just as likely to screw it up.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:47 | 2659526 reader2010
reader2010's picture

"Why would I leave my land, where I was born, because of monsters?

I will not leave.  They will leave. "


Junk me as you please. The matter of the fact is that many Jews in the Third Reich had the same strong belief.  WWIII and WWIV are coming up, and those that don't plan and relocate from the center of the Empire will learn another historical lesson. IMHO we've got a very small window of opportunity to act. 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:09 | 2659602 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

WWIII and WWIV are coming up, and those that don't plan and relocate from the center of the Empire will learn another historical lesson. IMHO we've got a very small window of opportunity to act.

So said everyone who saw the writing on the walls for their respective empires.....nothing will be learned.....the elites who survive or the peons of the new apocalypse who find the opportunity will become the new elites.....society will rebuild and it will all fall apart again in the future.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:39 | 2659745 monad
monad's picture

Minor difference. Adolf Hitler first disarmed the German people. Just like the monsters are attempting to do now.

Do you have any idea how many retired cops will lose their pensions dues to the muni BKs? You think they are going to stand for this, while the policriminals sneak away to Tortuga? How do you think this is going to affect cops who are about to retire, who work with cops who are about to retire, and who have to double shift to guard the monsters? hm.

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 05:52 | 2661695 Lebensphilosoph
Lebensphilosoph's picture

Complete tosh. Hitler disarmed Jewish citizens, not the enitre German people. The act of 1938 actually liberalised gun ownership - in fact it completely deregulated the ownership of rifles and shotguns. The German people of the 'Third Reich' were not unarmed or defenceless against a regime they hated; on the contrary they generally put up no resistance and embraced it.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 11:15 | 2660232 memyselfiu
memyselfiu's picture

a jew fighting the nazis in the ghettos of Warsaw had a higher life expectancy than a jew who climbed on the trains to slaughter.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:29 | 2659198 UGrev
UGrev's picture

We have another option. To fuck "your" shit up and kick "you" the fuck out. I like that option better. 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:34 | 2659394 Michael
Michael's picture

I'm OK with voting out all incumbent congress critters and voting just for Obama in November. I'm voting against incumbents in the August primaries too.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:49 | 2659225 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Saw a short doc. a few months ago. Sudan, the east is very dry, in the west there was agriculture and it was much greener. The reporter asked a man in the east: why don't you go west? The man said: well, this is my home, my culture and my neighborhood. I'd rather die than go "west". Same goes for me.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:19 | 2659611's picture

Like both Jesus and Buddha, Confucius would take a text from some incident along the way, as when he found a woman weeping at a roadside grave, and asked concerning her sorrow. "At this spot, some years ago, my husband's father was killed by a tiger, and so was my husband later, and now I have just buried the torn body of my son." Confucius, ever the practical sage, replied, "Why then do you stay here, in this dangerous neighborhood?" "Because, sir, though there are tigers around here, the government at least is not harsh." Confucius turned to the group gathered around them and said, "Listen, my people, and note well -- fiercer even than a tiger is a government which oppresses."

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:39 | 2659307 Svendblaaskaeg
Svendblaaskaeg's picture

"You always have the option to leave"

Eagles say no such thing

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:01 | 2659541 Observer
Observer's picture

Good one..yeah, they knew it back then :-)

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:14 | 2659364 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Bye. Don't let the door hit ya where God split ya.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:00 | 2659590 Colombian Gringo
Colombian Gringo's picture

Really? And where is a 13 year old boy with disabled parents to go?


Thinking of leaving the US? Try opening a brokerage or bank account overseas, or leaving without pay 30% to the IRS.

The good news, at least, is that people like yourself will be the first to populate the FEMA camps. Enjoy the hot dogs, and avoid the showers.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:43 | 2659749 escargot
escargot's picture

Yeah that's a penetrating insight...a notch above "I know you are but what am I!"

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 22:24 | 2659804 Freewheelin Franklin
Freewheelin Franklin's picture

That's what Vinnie the Crumb said to me when I opened a store in "his" neigborhood. That was right after he said, "this is a nice little store you got here. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it."

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 13:56 | 2659127 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

May Diane Feinstein choke on her next hot of course

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:28 | 2659187 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

May Diane Feinstein get exactly what she deserves.

May she soon meet the Master whom she has served so long and so well, and may she take from His hand what she has earned.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:30 | 2659199 UGrev
UGrev's picture

can Schumer join her? PLEASE!

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:47 | 2659578 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

and Emmamnuel.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:47 | 2659580 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

And Boomberg.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 13:57 | 2659129 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

The state is a fantasy and more and more Americans going on disabilitily and food stamps is a testimony to the ultimate failure of government.

BTW. Daily Kos attacked me saying the Q2 GDP of 1.5% was due to excessive heat/global warning. Uhm, the welfare state has been exploding under Obama BEFORE the heat wave. And malls, cars, stores have A/C. It isn't 1920 in Phoenix AZ, you leftist idiots.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 13:59 | 2659130 q99x2
q99x2's picture

I voted against Ms. Feinstein in the primary because I believe she is a crooked immoral scumbag deviate much like many of the kings of old. She has held onto her reign of terror for too long. Move em out. Head em up. 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:44 | 2659220 blunderdog
blunderdog's picture

Well, she is a crooked immoral scumbag. 

'Course, in a two-party system where both candidates are crooked immoral scumbags, you get what you'd expect.

It's all about the benjamins.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:35 | 2659398 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I often heard it said that voters hate all representatives but their own. I'm sorry, I would lke to meet these mythical voters. Perhaps I am hanging out with the wrong crowds?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:57 | 2659538 logos5
logos5's picture

I think it was actually "head em up, move em out". Rawhide!

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:01 | 2659134 Segestan
Segestan's picture

The multi-cult experiment will be the means that destroys all the grand plans of power.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:45 | 2659222 oklaboy
oklaboy's picture

no it will not. They will use it to furthur divide us, an enslave us. Until a great portiion than 10% of the popolus knows what is going on, this charade will go on, and on, and on

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:02 | 2659135 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Governments and Bankers are profligate consumers of wealth, blissfully ignorant of real wealth creation.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:02 | 2659136 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Ideological thinkers such as this author who scream that elected government has no worthwhile role and who do not want to contribute to any public project and yet who benefit daily from the existence of elected government, have a lot in common with the welfare queens who expect something for nothing.  

Yes, there are corrupt politicians and they should be thrown out.  There are also plenty of criminal and corrupt individuals in private business.  It's called humanity.  Getting rid of elected politicians will not eliminate human corruption or power seeking, but it will eliminate the opportunity for common individuals to have any check and balance on those who attain power.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:28 | 2659180 CH1
CH1's picture

Yes, there are corrupt politicians and they should be thrown out.

The same bullshit state apologists have been mouthing since 3000 BC (or earlier.) It is effective at just one thing: Keeping sheep thinking like sheep. Just wait. Try harder. Soon. Hope.

Waiting for permission is how slaves remain slaves.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:29 | 2659195 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

How coincidental that in all of those millenia one thing was constant -- ruthless powerful people came to power and ruled by violence and force.  I'm sure the Rothschilds and others who control most of the world's wealth would concur loudly that we should rid our societies of those pesky elections so that people can be "free."

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:13 | 2659265 CH1
CH1's picture

ruthless powerful people came to power and ruled by violence and force.

LOL... YES... and their tool for all of it was... THE STATE! 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:24 | 2659281 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So your definition of the THE STATE includes local warlords, tribal leaders, emperors, kings, queens, lords, religious tyrants, etc?  Funny, because I don't think they had elections or other voluntary means of changing things throughout most of history, yet people still lived in slavery and were ruled by force.  Maybe your problem is with believing in Unicorns, e.g., that humanity will just get along and that the power vacuum when elected government is swept away will not be filled by a tyrant.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:29 | 2659287 CH1
CH1's picture

If I answer this twisted objection, you'll have another. And when I answer that one, there will be another. What a waste... but no longer my waste. 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:26 | 2659332 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I'll bet you mostly surround yourself with like minded people who don't challenge your belief system and who throw around words like "statist" and "socialist" with no real debate about what it is you all think you are against and what the alternative would really look like.   I get it.  It's fun to join a team and sit around and get riled up and blame some big bad idea like "statism" for all your personal problems.     Rush Limbaugh made a fortune speaking to people who want to sit around and blame he poor and "lefties" for everything wrong with their worlds.   Meanwhile, millions of people manage to run businesses, make money (in many cases a lot of money), live full lives etc under your evil Statists construct and all you can ask is why you need to follow someone else's rules and pay taxes.  The answer is simple.  Most people understand from simple study of history or plain common sense that the alternative to our corrupt political system is a lot worse and that our attention should be focused on fixing our system of elected government, not dismantling it.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:20 | 2659444 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I don't care about your belief system.

It's been failing for thousands of years. The approved government du jour, democracy, is the top killing, destroying, enslaving, stealing machine in the world.

Same government shit, different government pile.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:31 | 2659623's picture



Rush Limbaugh


Is that all you've got? Well you love Hitler! Hitler! You want to marry him!

Gee, it sure was fun playing with your straw men, but hush now, adults are speaking.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:57 | 2659475 falak pema
falak pema's picture

back to the ape man ?

Lets not waste words, lets just say it plain : aaaaaaarghhhhh 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:59 | 2659336 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Please explain how elections have changed things. Are we not living in a State where you want to remove ALL THE POLITICIANS? How has democracy made a difference? It hasn't. 

What is the difference between a tyrant and what we have now? Are we not ruled by an elite of, as you said, 400 people? 

You really need to read humpty dumpty again.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:33 | 2659392 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yeah, it's just like living under Pinochet when people regularly disappeared, or under the Roman emperor who would kill dissidents for sport, or under the Spanish Inquisition where you were free to be tortured to death if you didn't follow the correct religion, or the colonial times when troops would come stay in your house when they felt like it, or under Hitler where you may be hauled off if you had the wrong last name, or under Stalin who killed millions of his own people to keep power, etc.  

Our system gives us the tools to keep the powerful monied interests and tryants in check.  Those tools are being largely ignored because the population is asleep or plugged in and most are effectively zombies.  But that is not the fault of elected government and the solution is not to get rid of elected government.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:59 | 2659418 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

We don't kill disadents for sport? Isn't that the new power given to the president's? Corporations are given free reign to create powerful toxins and genetic foods that cause DNA mutations resulting in cancers abd organ failures- are these not forms of torture? Police can enter your home at will and you cannot do anything about it. 

Tools are worthless, if the people are incapable of using them. Depending on an enlightened citizenry to justify a system that actively works to keep them ignorant IS the fault of the elected government.

You are the worst kind of troll. You attempt to further the means of the government and spread disinformation. 

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:34 | 2659454 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Your definition of troll apparently is anyone who disagrees with your narrow view of the world.   Fits well with your understanding of the world and how to improve it.  

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:09 | 2659492 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You still won't answer my arguments. My definition of a troll is simple: you work to persuade through obfuscation. You won't answer arguments, because you can't. You have no justifications or support for your arguments. Typical of a troll. 


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 18:28 | 2659510 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

He never answers questions. Impossible to engage him honestly.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:14 | 2659556 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Honesty is not their honest man couldn't look at themselves in the mirror after espousing some of the crap they do.

Its enough (for me) that they run off and hide after one of these little lets me know they'll do the same when the stakes are far, far greater ;-)

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:00 | 2659421 nmewn
nmewn's picture

These tools you speak of...would they be like the tools (regulation/codes) used to shut down that little kids hot dog stand?

And this other tool lying there (elections)...when a majority discovers they can use that tool to lawfully rob me, you sayin thats a just and fair thing?

This other tool over here (prosecutorial discretion) thinkin selecting this individual to prosecute and not that individual to prosecute for the very same violation of law is proper?

In the now immortal words of that great stand up comic Barry Obama...we "didn't build that, someone else did".

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:36 | 2659457 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

As usual, you have no idea what you are angry about.  You are just angry.  The hot dog stand was shut down by local officials.  And yes, the reason you pay taxes is elections.  No one ever had to pay taxes to kings and tyrants.   And by the way, I strongly suspect you get more out of society than you pay in.  You don't strike me as wildly successful financially.  Just selfish and angry.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:06 | 2659483 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Is my anger that transparent?...well good, even someone as thick as you sees it.

"The hot dog stand was shut down by local officials."

Yes it was. Would you like a federal example?

How about the tax on medical device manufacturers under the ObamaTax law? They are going out of business and/or paring back left and right...that would mean less domestic jobs & less of your precious government revenue LTER...or maybe you like offshoring more American business...just so you know, I may be madder than hell but I'm not blind with rage just yet.

Would you like to speak to this federal issue or pass?

"And yes, the reason you pay taxes is elections.  No one ever had to pay taxes to kings and tyrants."

You're a very poor student of history aren't you?

"And by the way, I strongly suspect you get more out of society than you pay in."

Actually no. I'm in the evil ten percent where a lot of the theft occurs. You should familiarize yourself with the nature of the "progressive" tax structure in this country before you hurl your "suspicions" around.

"Just selfish and angry."

Is it selfish of those who pay in nothing to constantly scream for more of someone elses? When they don't get it, do they become angry?

And why should I care about these selfish angry people again?


By your lack of a response I'll assume you don't want to address the ObamaTax on medical device makers and them being put out of business, their market degradation or having to relocate offshore to remain in business...your ignorant assertion that kings & dictators don't tax their "subjects"...or anyones supposed selfishness, greed, envy or anger.

You're probably too busy trying to figure out where I am in the government tax scheme, which is saying something about yourself.

But have no fear, I can unplug anytime I want, as can millions of others...its not hard to do when one doesn't owe anyone or anything squat.

This means...I don't owe you anything LTER...just in case it needs to be spelled out for you.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:09 | 2659603 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

I'm glad that hotdog stand was shut down. That kid was trying to poison his customers with unregulated hotdogs. I bet his TBTPlan was to sell 2 million hotdogs and then skip town with his profits. He could care less if you got sick and died and never bought a second hotdog.halready had your 3 dollars.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:41 | 2659648 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Actually no...but I got your

This is his story...

"This summer, 13-year-old Nathan Duszynski wanted to make some money to help out his disabled parents—his mom has epilepsy and his dad has multiple sclerosis. So he decided to open a hot dog stand. He saved $1,200, mostly money made by mowing lawns and shoveling snow. He checked with the city to make sure he didn't need any licenses or permits, even going to city hall in person with his mom. And then he bought a cart. (Yep, that's hot dogs from Nathan's, for those who are keeping score at home.) 

He arrived to set up shop on his first day and 10 minutes later, a zoning official arrived to shut him down. The problem: The cart, which is in the parking lot of a sporting goods store, is on the edge of official downtown commercial district of Holland, Michigan. The city bans food carts in that area in order to minimize competition for the eight tax-paying restaurants a couple of blocks away.

As it happens, I've been to Holland. It's a lovely town, but not exactly a booming metropolis. And frankly (ha!), after an evening of Blue Motorcycles Butch's Dry Dock, a hot dog would really have hit the spot. The city says it is willing to work with Nathan, but keeping food carts out of the small, walkable downtown area is pretty much the same thing as banning food carts altogether. Nathan and his family obviously know that: The hot dog cart is now for sale.

Its called regulatory capture by those who seek to keep their monopoly by law...through the state. Even children seeking to do good deeds through honest work and their own savings get ensnared by it.

The "progessive" would say we need more law to stop this...the libertarian says we need repeals of laws to stop this.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 03:57 | 2659959 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Bloody Anarchist!  Wait till LTER makes mincemeat of all yer arguments again </sarc>

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 09:02 | 2660075 nmewn
nmewn's picture

lol...she's trying to come to grips with her cognitive dissonance in promoting more of the thing she admits is corrupt and/or impeding individual prosperity. That prosperity of course, would lead to more of the government revenue which she so craves and lusts for.

Really a remarkable thing to watch ;-)

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:36 | 2659639's picture



And by the way, I strongly suspect you get more out of society than you pay in.


Government is not synonymous with society. Government rules by exercising a monopoly on violence. Only uncivilized persons employ violence as an organizing principle. Get civilized. Join society.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:56 | 2659674 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Just so you know...I understood her bending of perception (willful or otherwise) when she said it.

In order for her to understand what I was saying, I accepted her premise/definition of a society to make my point.

To clarify...government does not equal society...thanks for bringing that needed to be said.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 03:51 | 2659956 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

So, your argument is:  Don't advocate for changing the current system, because it could be a lot worse?

Egad, what a chicken you are!

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:08 | 2659550 logos5
logos5's picture

Democracy is  two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 19:47 | 2659581 nmewn
nmewn's picture


And a republic is a shepherd putting a leash on both wolves ;-)

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:01 | 2659688 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

And the FED is the bankers holding the leash with the ability to command...

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:56 | 2659765 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The Fed (to me) is an operational device of government.

It has no army, no police...that is retained by government...that is the key. Takeover government and one can do whatever they want with the Fed.

Up to and including abolishing it.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:31 | 2659735 brettd
brettd's picture

The folks in New Hampshire live/govern in a whole different way than the folks in California....

Mon, 07/30/2012 - 01:02 | 2661591 monad
Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:11 | 2659433 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Voting for President amounts to just as much force as the local warlord, Emperor, King, Chairman, Chancellor. It is nothing more than the desire to choose your brand of force, or express support for your favorite despot. Voting is divine right of the majority.

I don't think they had elections or other voluntary means of changing things throughout most of history, yet people still lived in slavery and were ruled by force.

What bigger slave, than one who think himself free. You demand volunteerism and voting in the same sentence? Voting is just a method of ordering other people around by proxy.

Maybe your problem is with believing...that humanity will just get along and that the power vacuum when elected government is swept away will not be filled by a tyrant."

You are saying that worst case, we end up right back where we are. Where do I sign up? Please review my comment

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:59 | 2659417 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Statism is but a religion. Like all religions, the ignorant believe, the wise question, the powerful find it a useful tool.

Rothchilds made their money by lending it to The State, which could simply point guns at taxpayers to repay the loan. So much for the idea that The might of the State is here to protect you from that eeeeviiiil free market.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:28 | 2659196 mark7
mark7's picture

It would be interesting if the system were based on random selection of candidates (who still must be wanting to become representatives unlike for example in jury selection) to be voted upon and then given equal sum of advertisement money for each selected as candidates. Private donations or own money use would be banned and any violators would be removed from ballot. So even an unemployed Joe sixpack with little money left could be a candidate.

This way it would remove the money out of the equation which is the root of evil in politics, biasing everything towards big companies.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:49 | 2659227 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Too bad most people would think that sounds crazy.  I think it's a great idea.  No doubt our greatest threat as a society is the money that has corrupted everything.  There is no government by and for the people any more.  We The People are an obstacle who occasionally are thrown a bone.  The wealthiest and most power obsessed rule us once again just as they have for most of human history.  

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:41 | 2659647's picture

Why is it so important to you that some people get to tell everyone else what to do?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 22:43 | 2659821 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

They believe that their survival instinct is the only correct one so strongly that they are willing to share it with you at gunpoint.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:15 | 2659367 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

So, no dirty money enters the system AFTER the elections? No one bribes sitting memebers of Congress or the President or SCOTUS? 

Please try again.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:14 | 2659439 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

I think we would do better by taking all money away from the Federal Government, then drawing names from hats.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:22 | 2659375 r00t61
r00t61's picture

I post this here on ZH from time to time, as food for thought.

In ancient Greece - birthplace of democracy - top officials were not chosen by election.  The Greeks were of the mind that the election process was too subject to corruption, bribery, and scandal. 

Instead, they used sortition - the random drawing of lots - to select officials.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:35 | 2659397 EgFinn
EgFinn's picture

Yes, the madnes of current democracy, we give power the people who wants it, truly insane.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:45 | 2659319 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture


but it will eliminate the opportunity for common individuals to have any check and balance on those who attain power

What check and balance do you think we have?  We who see money spent though 90% of us disapprove?  We who see tens of trillions of dollars spent without so much as a by your leave?  We who are forced to choose between two candidates who disagree only on the issues that their owners permit?

If you have fiat money, you don't have democracy.  

America was sold out 100 years ago by traitors. 

Our country is stirring again, now.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:56 | 2659335 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, our system is out of control and the Fed plays a big role.  How is getting rid of the Fed (which I support) and getting money out of politics (which I support) inconsistent with anything I have said?   What is your proposed solution?  Many here want to eliminate government from all roles except enforcing private contracts.  

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:55 | 2659470 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

How about permanently excluding anyone from civilization who can't behave in a civlized manner?

Predatory animals are not allowed in society, why should predatory 'humans' be allowed?

There are seven billion people on earth, there is no way they are needed.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:45 | 2659653's picture

The last line is over the top. Those who refuse to live in a voluntary, civilized society are free to go elsewhere and control or be controlled by others if that is their choice.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 22:55 | 2659828 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Only in the sense of a tribe with 150 healthy members, all were needed for survival.

Outlaws were those outside the protection of the law, in bygone days.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:48 | 2659656 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

LetThemEatRand, Clearly your debating opponents do not know what they want. It is simply a rage against taxes and government which they feel are taking their freedoms away.  I for one, would love to see LA or NYC and all their people live in a government free zone and a tax free zone for one day. Clearly there will be lots of freedom to go around. The result will be th 1% hiring private armies to protect themselves and enforce a rough justice on the 99%.

Look back in history to how society and government evolved. There were phases where just such warlordism prevailed. When there is NO elected government, there is only money, power and weapons. The rich qucikly hire the private forces to enforce their freedom over the 99%.

The Rand lovers are completely checked out from reality.  Rand was a greedy lunatic and as anti human as a being can get. Clearly if she held any power she would have been a mass murderer to give Stalin a run for his money.

The only problem with government is WE refuse to exercise our democratic rights in a way to serve our social self interests. We let the elites take our government away from us, That is not the fault of government, it is the fault of the people.

I clearly prefer to live in a system of government that is beholding to democratic elections where WE can vote out any clowns who do not serve the general well being of the people. It is OUR fault we do not use our freedom to vote properly. It is the people's own fault.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 21:08 | 2659700 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Really? Which history are you referring to? 

When governing systems broke down, money doesn't exist. Social credit and barter are the most common forms of currency. Money comes into existence to pay armies and taxes. Funny huh?

Weapons come into existence at the behest of governments, Leonardo DeVinci, Michaelangelo, etc. Science has always been employed to further the needs of the police state.

Sure, blame those people that have the least ability to influence the system and excuse the ones that do. What a moron.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 22:37 | 2659812 Cosimo de Medici
Cosimo de Medici's picture

Wow.  Clearly you have no place in the comments section of this site.  Your view of reality is far too......rational and brutally honest.  Don't deny your fellow travelers their childish fantasy of personal sovereignty, as if it ever existed in any world or ever could.

For the most part, they all failed in a world where there exist some checks and balances on unmitigated power, but have the fantasy that "if only" there was no rule of law except natural law, they would somehow do better and best the elite and the fittest.  They overlook the fact that in this world they had every bit the same opportunity as Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Oprah Winfrey or even George Soros, yet did not accumulate anywhere near the wealth or influence of these people, who---in a world without any checks and balances---would be able to afford the equivalent of a Genghis Khan-like means of control.  While the controls on the elite might be thin now, in a world without government, and more specifically without a democratic government, there would be absolutely no control and no redress against anything or anyone of superior force and intellect who wanted to exert his own power.  The crowd here thinks that since they have a pile of guns and ammo and a few Monster Boxes, then there is no one and no group who could enslave them in a state of nature.  This view is the height of naiveté and displays an abject inability to understand the nature of humanity, especially its inherent bad points.  So many on this site want to kill everyone who is not like them or who does not agree with them, yet on threads like this they seem to attribute to the typical man qualities and a goodness which they themselves lack.  Rather ironic.  Also, those who say they'd rather take their chances in the non-government world, and that it is better to die a free man than a slave....well, why haven't they yet stood up to the man?  That dying thing sounds so noble and courageous when boasting with the boys, but in reality it's a little too absolute, and compared to what a Southern slave faced in 1840's America, this modern "slavery" stuff ain't too bad---but don't tell your buddies that!

So their Pied Pipers become art students writing for some tiny paper pusher in Canada funded by Big Oil, or else angry white men in Montana, snowboarding hypocrites and bon vivant trust fund kids (you know who all these Guest Posters are).  Would anyone really like to live in a community where these Guest Post authors are?  Do any of them sound as if they would settle for anything less than being both philosophically and physically in charge?

I'll bet 13-year old Nathan Duszynski understands this harsh reality better than the adults on this thread, because Duszynski has seen the school bully, maybe even one who thinks Jews are guilty merely for being Joooooos.

Most of those who drool over these type of articles are, I suspect, really just disappointed in the idea of "one man, one vote".  The society isn't the way they want it, because more people prefer it a way other than what they think they want or deserve.  They pine for a world where their one vote carries more weight, or they convince themselves that in a world of no vote, albeit with the same human tendencies that push the elite to take as much control as possible in a democratic system, they would fare better.  It's Walter Mitty, and nothing more, and the fantasy prevents them from doing the heavy lifting and exercising the democratic right they have now.

I do not blame Rand completely for the naive view of humanity so many of the perpetually paranoid and eternally enraged on this site have, but I often wonder what masterpiece George Orwell would have written had he lived to do the same sort of take on Rand he did on Marx/Lenin.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 23:26 | 2659847 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Dear massa Samuel Cartwright,

You are missing the point.

I don't want to live my life according to how you believe I should. Is that so hard to understand?


Drapetomania was a supposed mental illness described by American physician Samuel A. Cartwright in 1851 that caused black slaves to flee captivity.[1]:41 Today, drapetomania is considered an example of pseudoscience,[2]:2 and part of the edifice of scientific racism.[3] The term derives from the Greek ???????? (drapetes, "a runaway [slave]") + ????? (mania, "madness, frenzy"). 

Cartwright described the disorder — which, he said, was "unknown to our medical authorities, although its diagnostic symptom, the absconding from service, is well known to our planters and overseers"[4] — in a paper delivered before the Medical Association of Louisiana[2]:291 that was widely reprinted.

He stated that the malady was a consequence of masters who "made themselves too familiar with [slaves], treating them as equals".[5]

"If any one or more of them, at any time, are inclined to raise their heads to a level with their master or overseer, humanity and their own good requires that they should be punished until they fall into that submissive state which was intended for them to occupy. They have only to be kept in that state, and treated like children to prevent and cure them from running away." [6]

In Diseases and Peculiarities of the Negro Race, Cartwright writes that the Bible calls for a slave to be submissive to his master, and by doing so, the slave will have no desire to run away.[4]

In addition to identifying drapetomania, Cartwright prescribed a remedy. His feeling was that with "proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many Negroes have of running away can be almost entirely prevented."[4] In the case of slaves "sulky and dissatisfied without cause" — a warning sign of imminent flight — Cartwright prescribed "whipping the devil out of them" as a "preventative measure".[2]:35[7][8] As a remedy for this "disease," doctors also made running a physical impossibility by prescribing the removal of both big toes.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 08:22 | 2660049 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Your entire argument rests on two assumptions: one, that the "elite" would always have the ability to enslave the masses because of their superiority and that democracy is the only means of restraining them. 

This one has no historical support. Elites have GAINED power through government and they have less restraints then ever. At present, they can practice in broad daylight without fear of criminal prosecution or government regulation. 

Two, that voting makes a difference. The composition of both parties in America has always yielded the same results. Why? Because the Elites control the nomination process. Party candidtaes must past the muster of the party leadership or are denied party support. 

Worse, you then go on to ascribe various behavioral faults to anyone that would challenge this system, without knowledge or personal experience. All on assumption. You neglect to recognize the power of community and collaboration as being part and parcel of anarchy. 

Of course, there would be people that are more successful than others, we are not equal, nor can any power makes us so, but the ability to find full expression cannot be found in an environment that supports and protects these same elites. This is what these writers "pine" for- the liberty to pursue our own happiness.

Finally, you neglect to recognize the power of propaganda through education and media on the ability of people to exercise their vote in full knowledge of its' consequences. Systems controlled by the very elites you want to control. You then condemn them to their fates as slaves based on a vote made in ignorance. It is the slaves fault!

What a sinister mind, that seeks to obscure the path to liberty, by being an apologist for the elites.

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 11:48 | 2660299 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Cosimo de Medici,  Quite true about Orwell, he died of TB too young. The world would be somehow better had he lived long enough to edit 1984 properly and then move on to more buring issues of his day, Yes, I'de love to see his pen turned on that woman MS Rand. She was not his equal, she was not even fit to stand in his shadow. Bloody woman idiot!

Sun, 07/29/2012 - 11:51 | 2660303 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

As to MS Rand, any self respecting hunter gatherer group would have kicked her out of the group to die on her own. Her selfish attitude was a death sentence for early man. Cooperation is built in our genes, if not, we would not even be here.


Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:33 | 2660453 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

There is a difference between forced cooperation and voluntary cooperation.

Each winter here, I voluntarily help push stuck vehicles out of the snow. I would not point a gun at someone and make them help.


Sun, 07/29/2012 - 13:45 | 2660468 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

What, if anything, has that got to do with government and human society.

The idea we can live without government and go it alone in this day and age is a hoax. Why even bother with it, we need the best government we can fashion, that means people get engaged again. Or shall we scrap democracy as well?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:23 | 2659378 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Corrupt politician?  You repeat yourself.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:16 | 2659411 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture


A lesson in A is A. If HUMANS are corrupt, what is the sense in handing HUMANS a ballot, and allowing them to vote to hand a few HUMANS the power over the lives of yet more humans? What is the sense of handing guns to those HUMANS with all the power, so they are able to enforce their will on the rest of the HUMANS?

Are they somehow more special humans? Do they eat beans from Jack's magic bean stalk? Are they transformed upon being innaugurated to public office into Non-HUMAN HUMANS?

A is A right? Oh I almost forgot your name...what was I thinking?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 20:48 | 2659657's picture

As a defender of the faith he has no use for logic.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:57 | 2659415 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

>>elected government<<

You just went off the track, good sir.

"Elected" doesn't mean "choose from a few Big Finance Capital funded and Big Finance Capital media promoted 'choices.'"

Current "elections" aren't elections, they are scams.

Having said that, this scam only works so long as the public runs around and acts like Galactic Chump Children (GCC).

But please don't pretend this government is elected by the people and looks out for the people.

You don't really believe this system isn't completely owned by Big Finance Capital, do you?  Really?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:07 | 2659143 Cali42
Cali42's picture

Some quotes from Thomas jefferson for perspective:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Most bad government has grown out of too much government.

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.

I think myself that we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious. (Back then!)

Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want bread.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.

And again:

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:23 | 2659178 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

Yet the poster above you screams all day long that Jefferson was wrong about supporting limited govt powers. 

Govt at all levels is just way too fucking big. End of story.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:31 | 2659201 mick_richfield
mick_richfield's picture

In the new age, we do not have 'government'. 

We have the law.


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:36 | 2659206 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

No, he doesn't scream that Jefferson was wrong.  He screams that clowns like the author above who want effectively no government at all and certainly no collective action for things like roads are schools and airports and scientific research and food for the poor are wrong.  

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 14:57 | 2659240 Bay of Pigs
Bay of Pigs's picture

No govt at all? LOL. How do you come to that conclusion? 

Speaking of clowns...

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:24 | 2659284 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

So you're okay with the list of things I stated above that I see as a valid and desirable role of government?

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 17:22 | 2659446 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Why is it that you think only govenment is capable of such feats? You know government doesn't actually build any of that shit in the first place. They hire PRIVATE contractors. Government employees are just contract administrators, and spenders of other peoples' money.

Your premise seems to be the roads, eminent domain, bridges, dams, and all that other government funded horsepiss, is the best we can do. I wonder how much better we could have done without the jack boot of government, and its socioeconmic imbalances limiting our technological advancement. We might have anti-gravity, or teleportation by now. We would certainly be using few, if any fossil fuels.

Sat, 07/28/2012 - 15:30 | 2659292 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

So you are suggesting that collective action IS impossible unless it happens under the benevolent guiding hand of Government?


Sat, 07/28/2012 - 16:00 | 2659341 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

We're talking apples and oranges.  Or more accurately reality and fantasy.  

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