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Guest Post: Three Paths To Near-Term Human Extinction

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Guy McPherson of Nature Bats Last

Three Paths To Near-Term Human Extinction

About a decade ago I realized we were putting the finishing touches on our own extinction party, with the party probably over by 2030. During the intervening period I’ve seen nothing to sway this belief, and much evidence to reinforce it. Yet the protests, ridicule, and hate mail reach a fervent pitch when I speak or write about the potential for near-term extinction of Homo sapiens.

“We’re different.”
“We’re special.”
“We’re too intelligent.”
“We’ll find a way out. We always do.”

We’re humans, and therefore animals. Like all life, we’re special. Like all organisms, we’re susceptible to overshoot. Like all organisms, we will experience population decline after overshoot.

Let’s take stock of our current predicaments, beginning with one of several ongoing processes likely to cause our extinction. Then I’ll point out the good not quite so bad news.

We’re headed for extinction via global climate change

It’s hotter than it used to be, but not as hot as it’s going to be. The political response to this now-obvious information is to suspend the scientist bearing the bad news. Which, of course, is no surprise at all: As Australian climate scientist Gideon Polya points out, the United States must cease production of greenhouse gases within 3.1 years if we are to avoid catastrophic runaway greenhouse. I think Polya is optimistic, and I don’t think Obama’s on-board with the attendant collapse of the U.S. industrial economy.

Apparently — too little, too late — a couple people have noticed a few facts about Obama. This “awakening” might explain why his political support is headed south at a rapid clip.

But back to climate change, one of three likely extinction events. Well, three I know about: I’m certain there are others, and any number can play. With four months remaining in the year, the U.S. has already tied its yearly record for the most billion-dollar weather disasters. Russia is headed directly for loss of 30% of its permafrost by 2050. Tundra fires could accelerate planetary warming. This year, the Northeast Passage was open as of 27 July. This is a massively dire situation for the Arctic. In fact, we have passed a de facto tipping point with respect to Arctic ice. This latter outcome is stunning, but only to those who follow the horrifically conservative and increasingly irrelevant Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Nature is responding with hybrid bears, suggesting the near-term loss of all polar bears. Indeed, all Earth’s systems are rapidly declining. Many organisms can’t keep up as they try to stay ahead of an overheating planet.

As the living planet decays, we keep piling on. Examples abound. Here’s one tiny example among thousands, from that pesky BP well at Deepwater Horizon. It’s out of the news cycle, but it’s not done destroying life in the Gulf of Mexico. But perhaps this tidbit belongs beneath the heading of …

We’re headed for extinction via environmental collapse

Nature is bankrupt, just like Wall Street and the USA. Thanks for playing, but you lose. The banksters on Wall Street “win.” But only in the short term. In the long run, we’re all dead (as first stated by John Maynard Keynes).

Among the consequences of taking down more than 200 species each day: at some point, the species we take into the abyss is Homo sapiens (the wise ape). The vanishing point draws nearer every day. Our response, in the industrialized world: Bring on the toys. Burn all fossil fuels. Harvest the rain forests and strip-mine the soil. Pollute the water, eat the seed bank.

And, most importantly, figure out how we can make a few bucks as the world burns.

We have our hand in a monkey trap, and we can’t let go.

We’re headed for extinction via nuclear meltdown

Safely shuttering a nuclear power plant requires a decade or two of careful planning. Far sooner, we’ll complete the ongoing collapse of the industrial economy. This is a source of my nuclear nightmares.

When the world’s 442 nuclear power plants melt down catastrophically, we’ve entered an extinction event. Think clusterfukushima, times 400. Ionizing radiation could, and probably will, destroy every terrestrial organism and, therefore, every marine and freshwater organism. That, by the way, includes the most unique, special, intelligent animal on Earth.

Ready for some good news?

Meanwhile, back on Wall Street

The Securities and Exchange Commission is busily covering up Wall Street crimes, just as they did during the last presidential administration. And, as it turns out, they’ve been performing this trick for two decades. Finally, though, the S&P is taking the U.S. to the woodshed.

The S&P knows what the media and politicians know: U.S. national debt isn’t really $14 trillion and change, as we’ve been led to believe. In fact, it exceeds $200 trillion. And, back when it was a mere $10.5 trillion, it exceeded the value of all circulating currencies as well as all the gold ever mined. It cannot be paid off, ever. The response will be default. With luck, it’ll happen quickly and completely, thus sending us directly to the new dark age (with the post-industrial Stone Age soon to follow).

The ongoing crash of the stock markets differs from prior events because, for one thing, the Fed is about out of ammunition. At this juncture, there are no easy solutions. In fact, there are no solutions at all. We have just about used up all our “rabbits in the hat” as far as fiscal and monetary policy are concerned. Economics pundit Graham Summers agrees: The Fed is about to find itself completely powerless as 2008 redux appears.

Think of 2008 as an economic teddy bear, and 2011 as a grizzly. And I think I mentioned this one already: The hunters are out of bullets.

The all-too-expected political response from the final remaining superpower: ratchet up covert wars. Maybe, while we’re at it, launch another World War.

The bottom line

You’ve been warned repeatedly in this space, and the Guardian finally joins the party: The industrial economic system is about to blow. This burst of hope, our remaining chance at salvation, will undoubtedly be greeted with the usual assortment of protests, ridicule, and hate mail I’ve come to expect from planetary consumers who want to keep consuming the planet.

The underlying predicament — reduction in available energy — is described graphically by Gail Tverberg in this essay. She then tacks on fine analysis in this subsequent essay. Jared Diamond adds a dose of complexity, as described by Erik Curren at Transition Voice.

But these warning shots are only the most recent in a rich history dating back to Marcus Aurelius (and probably further). For materials only slightly older than me that focus on our energy predicament, take a peek at M. King Hubbert’s 1956 paper and the text of Admiral Hyman G. Rickover’s 1957 speech.

And then, let go.


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Sat, 08/20/2011 - 12:29 | 1581191 Cassandra Syndrome
Cassandra Syndrome's picture

We are going to have Global Cooling for at least a decade because of weak solar activity. The weakest since the Dalton Minimum 200 years ago. 

Sat, 08/20/2011 - 12:39 | 1581222 Ahmeexnal
Ahmeexnal's picture

"global climate change"

He must be one of Al Gore's interns.

Sat, 08/20/2011 - 12:43 | 1581240 Fuh Querada
Fuh Querada's picture

Yeah, with world government, superbureaucrats and global taxation to fight it

Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:02 | 1581288 spiral_eyes
spiral_eyes's picture

my (far less cartoonish) take on self-anointed self-destruction...  

but really tyler, this environmental apocalypticism is pretty counter-factual... not everything that comes bundled in sixteen shades of doom and gloom is true. 

Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:49 | 1581473 Thomas
Thomas's picture

Totally counterfactual. Although those may or may not be problems, with the exception of thermonuclear war or pandemic, we are here for awhile. The oddest part of all is that "we're made of meat"...

Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:16 | 1582151 grekko
grekko's picture

Global warming is HOGWASH!  Is the planet warming, YES, is it the fault of man, NO!  Please explain why Mars and Venus are heating too.  I'm sure they have real bad traffic congestion with alot of cars and trucks spewing all those terrible emissions.  Mankind's contributions to grenhouse gasses are lesss than 1%.  Please give me a break on AGW.

Industry.  is it imploding?  Yes, due to Wall Street greed (as well as all of those politicians they own, lock, stock, and barrel).  Put a few big ones in jail, and it'll end.  Business will thrive once again as long as we do away with a heck of alot of regulations and reform the tax policy so they don't get a deduction for shipping jobs to China.

Nuclear meltdown?  Unfortunately, we have no way to make up the necessary power for consumption without them.  Like them or not, Nuke plants are here to stay.  The only way they will all go into meltdown at the same time is if the Nibiru swings close enough to this planet that it causes massive worldwide earthquakes all at the same time.  I'm not having toomuch worry about that one happening.   Is it possible?  Ya, but highly unlikely.

The writer of this article seems to me to be a bit paranoid.  I think he should just kick back and have a couple of Mai Tais.  He'll sleep better and hopefully stop wasting our time with this rubbish.  We kow how to fix the troubles in the world, we just need the "paid for" politicians to get on board.  Have a nice day everyone.

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:37 | 1582956 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Nukes would warm things up for awhile, then cool things down (nuclear winter?).  Since over population and a big wave of senior citizens owed money and healthcare, I am thinking global man made pandemic aimed at 60+ population.  Thin the herd with pandemic or WW3 (maybe a few strategic nukes).

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 03:11 | 1583044 Spirit Of Truth
Spirit Of Truth's picture

We will nuke ourselves long before global warming becomes a world-ending issue IMHO.  In fact, implausible concerns (e.g., Planet X, pole shifts, etc.) may be mass psychological diversions from what should be the obvious fact that Russia is planning to unleash an all-out nuclear war against the U.S. and Western powers, possibly in short order:


Russia's Secret War Plans


Sun, 08/21/2011 - 04:18 | 1583075 eisley79
eisley79's picture



good try though, "i am for his doom and gloom policy", but "i am against his belief in pseudo-science quakery policy"



For you belief in baseless eco-facist propaganda with no real scientific evidence you win:

Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:55 | 1583631 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

The billionaire Koch brothers, who are buying the US election through the Citizens United decisions held another one of their get togethers.

Attending were two supreme court judges - the same judges who allowed corporations to give unlimited donations to any political candidate of their choice - Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

Also attending were Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck, as well as reliables like Haley Barbour and Bobby Jindal (no surprise there).

Interview of Matt Taibbi by Keith Olbermann.

The Koch Brother are super-rich global warming sceptcis. Which would all be fine, except for the names and fronts they seem to hide behind. The Koch's are a case study in faking it on a massive scale.

The Koch's are pro-free market, except when they benefit. Every year they take $123.6 million US dollars in subsidies from Hugo Chavez's socialist government.

Three weeks ago the Koch's were caught employing PR firm, New Media Strategies, to santise their Wikipedia entries and distance themselves from the Tea Party.



Mon, 08/22/2011 - 07:57 | 1585357 moregoldplease
moregoldplease's picture

Who bought the Obama election?


Thu, 08/25/2011 - 09:17 | 1598879 JW n FL
JW n FL's picture

Daily Kos: Global Warming is real say the Koch Brothers - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo

Apr 4, 2011 – Global Warming is real say the Koch Brothers. The Climate Change Denier Scientist the Koch Brothers paid to debunk Global Warming has come ...


  • The Koch Brothers' Vast Right-Wing Media Conspiracy | Mother Jones

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    Feb 4, 2011 – The Koch brothers are outraged—outraged!—that people were tricked into believing they care about global warming. ...

  • Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine ...

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    Charles and David Koch have quietly funneled over $55 million to ... that are working to delay policies and regulations aimed at stopping global warming. ... The Koch brothers, their family members, and their employees direct a web of ...

  • Koch Industries multibillionaire Koch brothers bankroll attacks on ...

   - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo

    Mar 18, 2010 – The Koch brothers have stepped forward with deep pockets to bankroll ... Red Hot Lies: How Global Warming Alarmists Use Threats, Fraud and ...

  • New Yorker exposes Koch brothers along with their greenwashing and ...

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    Aug 24, 2010 – TRENDING: Global Warming · Climate Change Deniers · Election 2012 · Science ... Koch Brothers Fund Bogus Study Bashing Offshore Wind ...

  • Billionaire Koch brothers back suspension of California climate ...

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    Sep 2, 2010 – A company owned by oil billionaires Charles and David Koch has contributed $1 million to Proposition 23, a November ballot initiative to ...

  • Sun, 08/21/2011 - 10:49 | 1583297 Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    In a century where there are EMPs, who needs nuclear warhead.

    One well placed EMP and everything from Ontario to Miami goes dark, including the control systems of nuclear power plants.  If power can be brought back up, no problem.  But in an EMP attack, the power stays off and the nuke plants all melt down.  End of game.


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:47 | 1583600 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:46 | 1583608 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture

    dude: two words: gauss shield.

    You don't get  out much, do ya?

    - Ned

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 15:49 | 1583848 snowball777
    snowball777's picture

    That'd be one big ass Faraday cage and there'd be some part of it visible in the reactor buildings, don'tcha think?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:24 | 1583231 Calmyourself
    Calmyourself's picture

    Sagan all but repudiated nuke winter before his death..  There was no science behind it just a really, really firm view on how things should be just like MMGW scientists.  TD, please no more of this persons greeniac, luddite, malthusian gibberish.

    Oh bust the Fed +.

    Thu, 08/25/2011 - 09:16 | 1598869 JW n FL
    JW n FL's picture
  • [PDF]
    Redefining What's Possible for Clean Energy by ... - Gigaton Throwdown

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    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
    With such a policy, we can achieve gigaton scale by 2020, stabilize the climate, and create a new industry. While we did not prepare this report, ...


  • Introduction - Gigaton Throwdown

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  • Sat, 08/20/2011 - 15:55 | 1581837 Young Buckethead
    Young Buckethead's picture

    We will not be here "for awhile". Fukushima alone will kill hundreds of millions of people within a few years. Who will be left to keep the cooling pumps running at the other nuke plants in Japan when everyone there dies and the whole country is declared a 'hot zone'? Fukushima was only Act I.

    The rain from the radioactive oceans will slowly kill off the rest, through increased infant mortality rates. In Iraq alone, the DU dust we left has created an infant mortality rate around 80%. Israel is now experiencing similar results from their use of DU munitions against the Palestinians and Lebanese. The old folks die, no new kids to replace them. Three generations, max.

    Start your bucket list. Everything else is irrelevant.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:30 | 1581898 WebWeasel
    WebWeasel's picture

    There is a reason we find the remains of formerly great civilizations. They were all "immune to history", just like us.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:57 | 1582229 Thomas
    Thomas's picture

    But they didn't necessarily died; they moved on. That's a far cry from extinction.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:45 | 1582689 old naughty
    old naughty's picture

    Ah ha, they moved on; so we will? Because we are special?

    IMHO, all three paths will converge, plus something else(anyone care to make predictions?), and this path is the "Y" where no return is "allowed".

    Help, we are getting, returns from our future (yea, future ---and them, no more)...

    No, we are not special. And the path we are on, not "allowed" !!!

    Thanks for sharing.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 10:00 | 1583264 steve from virginia
    steve from virginia's picture


     - First of all, interesting to see Guy McPherson on ZH, I guess Jeremy Grantham has made doomers a cultish fav

     - Don't cry little children over your lost cars, they won't be missed after they are gone.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:16 | 1582004 SPADOC4
    SPADOC4's picture

    Fukushima alone will kill hundreds of millions of people within a few years.

     That's quite a claim. Hyperbole? And all within "a few years?" Just how many years? Three?

    I'll agree the north eastern quadrant of Japan has a serious problem and that problem can/probably is spreading toward Tokyo. But compare your claims with those made during Chernobyl and TMI.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:38 | 1582068 Young Buckethead
    Young Buckethead's picture

    Here's one of the international experts who made these claims: Chernobyl and TMI are well covered.

    Dr. Caldicott's CV:

    Anything by Arnie Gundersen or Dr. Chris Busby. That would get one started.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:41 | 1582683 CompassionateFascist
    CompassionateFascist's picture

    Helen Caldicott is a globalist-socialist. One of the original "better Red than Dead" crowd.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:40 | 1583247 JimBowie1958
    JimBowie1958's picture

    CF, I understand your concern, but that doesnt change the scientific facts she relates concerning the internal damage caused by metabolized radioactive material.


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:09 | 1583321 Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    Experts?  Everytime I hear "expert" I prepare myself to hear a bunch of malarky.  This time IS different.  We have no exprets anymore (if we ever did, I would be surprised)

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:58 | 1582119 Golden monkey
    Golden monkey's picture

    You sound like a troll sponsored by a dumb monkey. 

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 00:12 | 1582842 IronShield
    IronShield's picture

    Darn you, I hate blowing soda out my nose...

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:21 | 1582163 grekko
    grekko's picture

    I agree with SPADO.  Fukishima will be brought under control.  This is really bad in Japan, but they will eventually get it under control.  Is it a disaster?  Yes, but they are throwing all the money they have to at it to make it better.  give the physicists and engineers time to do what they must.  As for the gloom and doomers here...stay out of the sun and far back from your TV and computer screens...they give off radiation as well.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 19:03 | 1582245 Young Buckethead
    Young Buckethead's picture

    Money doesn't matter. The technology to clean this up does not exist, and will not exist before we're all gone. How do you clean up the plutonium that's already circled the Northern Hemisphere? How do you pull out all the radionuclides in the water from emergency cooling operations, out of the world's oceans, before it turns to rain and destroys the world's crops?

    I hope I'm wrong, I really do, but 30+ years of studying these things tells me we're fucked as a species.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 19:30 | 1582307 samslaught
    samslaught's picture

    Your last sentence gives you away.  It's a qualifier that inferior people use when they aren't able to prove their point with evidence, facts, or knowledge.  The amount of time that you have spent studying a subject is not relevant.  If we had a time machine I could summon someone that spent 50 years studying the Earth and concluded it was flat.  If you have a point to make, make it.  If you know what you’re talking about you should be able to convince the rest of us without leaning on qualifiers.  

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 20:17 | 1582415 Young Buckethead
    Young Buckethead's picture

    Well, I was a nuke in the Navy, but then again, I could be lying, so who's to say?

    Again, I hope all the international radiation contamination experts are wrong on this. I've got kids that I don't want to see die from cancer. But the only people that say this is going to be ok are people from the nuke industry. It's like trusting gang bangers to tell me that they aren't guilty of drive by shootings. You do the math.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 20:42 | 1582478 BigJim
    BigJim's picture

    Fukushima probably will kill quite a few people. But the radiation and radionucliides it has and will release are considerably less than what was released by literally THOUSANDS of nukes detonated between 1945 and 1980.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:57 | 1582722 monkeyboy
    monkeyboy's picture

    If there's a massive increase in birth deformities/defects/etc in 9+ months from the disaster, it will be hard for authorities to deny that the radiation levels aren't a problem.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 04:20 | 1583076 Pay Day Today
    Pay Day Today's picture

    1) Quite a few of those tests were conducted underground

    2) The amount of radioactive material in a nuclear warhead is measured in pounds. There are many many tons of uncontrolled radioactive material at Fukushima.

    Wed, 08/24/2011 - 14:31 | 1596068 Hugh_Jorgan
    Hugh_Jorgan's picture

    Hey there, Mr. Navy Nuke. I was qualified EWS, SRO, RADCON QA Inspector, EDPO and I was an instructor for 4 years, and I can say unequivically that what you learned in the Navy in no way qualifies you as any kind of authority on the Fukashima disaster's long term effects to Mankind, period.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:20 | 1583226 NumNutt
    NumNutt's picture

    If things are as bad as you say why don't you just kill yourself and spare the rest of us from listening to your crying.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:15 | 1583325 Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    I love radiation.  

    SOMETHING mutated me from a grumpy old man with soon to be worthless stocks,

    into to a grumpy old man with a lot of gold and silver.

    Radiation = Yum, Yum

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:18 | 1582155 Missiondweller
    Missiondweller's picture

    "In Iraq alone, the DU dust we left has created an infant mortality rate around 80%."


    That's a remarkable statement. Can you cite a source?

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:58 | 1582234 Thomas
    Thomas's picture

    The Onion

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:57 | 1582725 bonin006
    bonin006's picture

    Shame on you. The Onion is much more realistic than that.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:18 | 1582650 Gordon Freeman
    Gordon Freeman's picture

    He's a fucking moron...

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 04:56 | 1583083 MrJoy
    MrJoy's picture :

    A medical survey, "Cancer, Infant Mortality and Birth Sex Ratio in Fallujah, Iraq 2005–2009" published in July 2010, states that the “Increase in cancer and birth defects…are alarmingly high” and that infant mortality 2009/2010 has reached 13.6%.

    Source is in the wikipedia article.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:20 | 1582158 OldPhart
    OldPhart's picture

    We did a shit load of openair nuclear testing up until the early 70's.  I don't have three eyes, nor do my adult kids.  My sisters multiple grandchildren seem funtional also.

    While radiation is a concern, and many do die of inoridantely high levels, I don't think that is our immediate problem. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:54 | 1582224 Thomas
    Thomas's picture

    So you are saying we will be extinct or you are saying there will be a big die off? If it's the latter, I have no problem with your thesis. If the former, that is where I disagree. The global population might go below a billion. I doubt it goes below 1.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:47 | 1582696 trav7777
    trav7777's picture

    this is just the dumbest hysterical shit ever

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 06:34 | 1583113 Pay Day Today
    Pay Day Today's picture

    Interestingly, that's exactly what a lot of mainstream economists and financial journalists think about ZH.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 07:44 | 1583164 Pay Day Today
    Pay Day Today's picture


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:01 | 1582931 WeekendAtBernankes
    WeekendAtBernankes's picture

    ya ok

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 06:54 | 1583130 dynomutt
    dynomutt's picture

    There's quite a significant difference in "infant mortality rate around 80%" and "infant mortality rate inscreased 80%"



    Notice how none of these is 80?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:03 | 1583313 Smiddywesson
    Smiddywesson's picture

    Continued exposure to radiation didn't slowly poison the population of Hiroshima.  Nobody knows why the survivors became healthier than most people, they just did.  I am not saying that Fukushima won't kill millions.  All I am saying is it doesn't spell death to eveyone through a slow poisoning effect.  There are other processes at work that we don't understand.  That's why Global Warming Theory is a fail.  It points out some facts and ignores the inconvienent ones (like solar activity).  Facts are, you can't separate out all the different influences on the weather and test for the one controlling influence.

    The people who pretend to know are liars and thieves, or both. 

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:17 | 1583336 snowball777
    snowball777's picture

    Somehow in a room with three lights and three switches I can still manage to figure out which switches control which lights. While climate science is definitely more tricky than this oversimplification, the same methodology is certainly applicable. And they don't "pretend to know" they propose a theory and test the hypothesis.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:35 | 1583360's picture

    What was the climate like in the era of Piltdown Man and how does that reflect on the subject of "global warming?"

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:37 | 1583459 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    What was the climate in England ~100 years ago? Is that what you are asking?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:26 | 1583569's picture

    Scientists told you that "Piltdown Man" lived in England in prehistoric times. You're not saying that "Piltdown Man" was a hoax which convinced mainstream scholars for decades are you? You're not suggesting that British intellectuals began this hoax by planting false evidence are you?

    And worse of all, you're not admitting that the "Piltdown Man" deniers were right all along, are you?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:33 | 1583919 snowball777
    snowball777's picture

    Are you suggesting that Dawson was receiving funding from the British government that would have been yanked for lack of the discovery of a "missing link"?

    Are you suggesting that fluorine absorption tests aren't a valid methodology for dating bone fragments?


    Thu, 08/25/2011 - 09:19 | 1598898 JW n FL
    JW n FL's picture

    Daily Kos: Global Warming is real say the Koch Brothers


  - Cached You +1'd this publicly. Undo

    Apr 4, 2011 – Global Warming is real say the Koch Brothers. The Climate Change Denier Scientist the Koch Brothers paid to debunk Global Warming has come ...


  • The Koch Brothers' Vast Right-Wing Media Conspiracy | Mother Jones

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    Feb 4, 2011 – The Koch brothers are outraged—outraged!—that people were tricked into believing they care about global warming. ...

  • Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine ...

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    Charles and David Koch have quietly funneled over $55 million to ... that are working to delay policies and regulations aimed at stopping global warming. ... The Koch brothers, their family members, and their employees direct a web of ...

  • Koch Industries multibillionaire Koch brothers bankroll attacks on ...

   - CachedSimilar You +1'd this publicly. Undo

    Mar 18, 2010 – The Koch brothers have stepped forward with deep pockets to bankroll ... Red Hot Lies: How Global Warming Alarmists Use Threats, Fraud and ...

  • New Yorker exposes Koch brothers along with their greenwashing and ...

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    Aug 24, 2010 – TRENDING: Global Warming · Climate Change Deniers · Election 2012 · Science ... Koch Brothers Fund Bogus Study Bashing Offshore Wind ...

  • Billionaire Koch brothers back suspension of California climate ...

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    Sep 2, 2010 – A company owned by oil billionaires Charles and David Koch has contributed $1 million to Proposition 23, a November ballot initiative to ...

  • Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:12 | 1583331 snowball777
    snowball777's picture

    Dig the avatar. You play? If so, do you Mr. DeathCubeK?

    "Hey, Buckethead, what's in the bucket man?"

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:16 | 1582005 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture

    "The oddest part of all is that "we're made of meat"..."

    Ya, but I'm kinda' New. ;-)

    - Ned

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:55 | 1582225 Thomas
    Thomas's picture

    Is that Ned of Colorado and a brother of mine or another Ned?

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:05 | 1582522 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture

    'nother, unless I miss my guess.

    Might b 'nother by another mother, I've been cross adopted in certain circumstances.

    - Ned

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:50 | 1582099 davidgn
    davidgn's picture

    UChicago's take, for meatheads:

    Watch it, bitchezz!

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:37 | 1582677 CompassionateFascist
    CompassionateFascist's picture

    We are either a cancer on the face of the biosphere, or about to be harvested.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 23:26 | 1582778 old naughty
    old naughty's picture

    eaten or be eaten...hummmmmm!

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 07:09 | 1583141 ToNYC
    ToNYC's picture


    Debbie Downer missed one big thing:


    You may not like it but you get a chance to change it, if you take it.


    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:57 | 1581508 Confused
    Confused's picture

    I find it amusing that most (if not all here) have NO problem with the idea that the global financial system is controlled by a small number of individuals. But when it comes to environmental issues (the effects on the environment of human activity, not the act of governmental/wall street profiting off of it), there seems to be some who have trouble with it. Why is it so hard to believe that if I dump oil (or any other chemical/compound/etc.) into the ocean/land/atmosphere/etc that it will be problematic?

    If you piss in your living room, whenever you feel like it, eventually it will smell. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:04 | 1581539's picture

    The system is controlled by people who want to take more of your money by frightening you into believing that Muslims, gay marriage and CO2 are going to end life as we know it.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:31 | 1582189 Oracle of Kypseli
    Oracle of Kypseli's picture

    Well! He is indeed "confused"

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:45 | 1582690 CompassionateFascist
    CompassionateFascist's picture

    Nix on 1,3....#2 looks promising.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:11 | 1581570 spiral_eyes
    spiral_eyes's picture

    There are many degrees of "problematic". I find it amusing that those who haven't studied the environment (I have) seem to consider that all shades of problematic are an apocalyptic collapse. The Earth and the Universe are far older, far bigger and far more self-stabilising (Lovelock was right, just not in the way he imagined) than our tiny human minds can possibly grasp. 

    Essentially, the models we have (that make these kinds of predictions) are based on massive oversimplifications and ignore huge factors like the nuances of solar and galactic-core activity (global warming on Mars, you say?), and long-term (post Ice Age) trends. We do not know enough about climate during the Earth's history, because most of our data is inferred from things like tree rings and ice cores. Essentially, we do not know what the cumulative effects of raising the CO2 level to 384ppm will be. We do know it is a good insurance policy to reduce the level to the pre-Industrial baseline — which is perfectly possible while still burning fossil fuels through the use of carbon-scrubbing. Read this:  

    Ultimately I think all the apocalypticism just polarises debate and makes people throw up their hands claim "we're screwed" and ignore some of the easier and viable solutions and partial solutions.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:48 | 1582701 trav7777
    trav7777's picture

    yeah, these idiots with their radiation phobia. Wildlife in Chernobyl Zone is flourishing due to lack of humans

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:38 | 1582976 slewie the pi-rat
    slewie the pi-rat's picture

    maybe chernobyl ain't no fuk_u, trav...

    ...some of the recent "rumors" sound pretty hairy to moi...

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 06:04 | 1583105 malikai
    malikai's picture

    Chernobyl was worse. Chernobyl blew the guts of the reactor all over the plant site, while the core was still critical. There were fuel rods, molten/burned graphite moderator, various components of the core structure and cooling system littering the site. That is quite a bit different from blowing the containment building's outer structure all over the plant site, when the reactor was shut down for at least several hours before.

    Apart from the maritime contamination and the one-time burst of I, Cs, and Xe we saw from Fukushima, there's little else widespread contamination that will come of it. Sure, parts of Fukushima Prefecture and several other surrounding areas in Japan will be hot for longer than any of us will be alive for, but it will not be the end of "hundreds of millions" as some morons above have commented. If we all somehow managed to survive Chernobyl, TMI, and the dozens of naval and space nuclear accidents, I think we got a pretty good shot at surviving this Fukushima thing.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:15 | 1581589 Johnbrown
    Johnbrown's picture

    I don't think man made global warming "deniers" reject out of hand the possibility of environmental damage. But in this specific case, they haven't been convinced. I find it funny that most people who believe in the global warming apocalypse theory, are completely unable to explain the science behind the theory. Once you get past the most superficial, overly repeated factoids, you generally discover that they, themselves, have made no substantial effort to understand the science. So they are just relying on "experts" without exercising their own critical faculties.


    The potential is not questioned, it's the specifics we have a problem with. This is the key point.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:46 | 1581674 Spastica Rex
    Spastica Rex's picture

    It's all faith, isn't it? People just choose different religions, churches, and priests.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 15:13 | 1581737 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    They can't explain the science behind AGW because there IS no science, only fraudulent computer models that spew out predetermined garbage. Anyone who understands serious computer modelling knows that even if you could accurately  model  all the variables that affect climate, the computing power simply does not exist. Even if the capabilities existed to process the data, the so called models used by the climate ecofascists prove nothing since they are based on flawed assumptions, using doctored data.  Climategate demonstrated this, beyond any reasonable doubt. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:03 | 1581974 Johnbrown
    Johnbrown's picture

    Two points to illustrate this, from "An Inconvenient Truth"
    1. Global warming will stop ocean currents: Gore explains that at the end of the last ice age, a huge intercontinental lake of fresh water formed in Canada. One day the natural dam burst and billions of gallons of water flooded into the North Atlantic. This, scientists say, caused the ocean currents to stop circulating normally. Ocean currents stopped carrying heat from the tropics north causing a mini Ice Age in Europe. He then says, that since the Greenland ice sheets are melting, and they hold billions of gallons of fresh water, they could have a similar effect. Scared yet? Problem is there is an ENORMOUS difference between a one time rush of fresh water - a massive lake emptying all at once, and the progressive melting of ice sheets. Huge difference. Bad reasoning.

    2. Global warming will flood cities creating millions of refugees: He shows maps of cities being flooded by water. Think of the millions of refugees! Look what happened with Katrina - imagine if the same thing happened simultaneously to all the more populated coastal cities around the world. He fails to consider that the "flooding" would be a gradual event. The most wildly pessimistic scenarios of rising water levels do not call for more than a couple inches a year. Therefore, there will be PLENTY of time for the cities to take precautions (retaining walls) or for the inhabitants to relocate. We are talking decades of time here.  He makes it seem like everyone's going to be rushing out of the city in a massive panic. Ridiculous, and irresponsible journalism.

    These are pretty obvious holes in the argument.

    This is the bullshit about these people. When you ask "What about this? What about that? How do you refute this point? (etc)" they simply DO NOT WANT TO ADDRESS YOUR ARGUMENTS. "Ok. Then shut up."

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 22:55 | 1582719 CompassionateFascist
    CompassionateFascist's picture

    AlGore used his AGW meme to sell several hundred million $$$ of "carbon offsets" to his rich, credulous liberal friends. Case closed.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:31 | 1583236 NumNutt
    NumNutt's picture

    You do realize the guy that wrote all that crap also claimed to have invented the internet. Anything with Al Gores name on it should be immediately filed in the shit can.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 11:07 | 1583319 SystemsGuy
    SystemsGuy's picture

    Minor correction here - Gore never claimed to have invented the Internet. He was responsible for establishing the DoD funding for DARPA in the area of building robust networks in the event of a war or similar event, and he did work with people such as Vint Cerf who were pretty much instrumental in building the Internet. The "Al Gore invented the Internet" meme was a MSM creation intended to show not only that Gore was arrogant but also "ivory tower".

    This is no reflection on what he's done in the global climate change front. Personally, while there is plenty of empirical evidence of global warming (albeit with localized cooling and inversions, primarily in Western Europe and the North American East Coast), I question carbon dioxide buildup due to human activity as being the sole cause of that. The evidence is increasingly pointing to solar and Jovian cycles being a bigger factor than originally estimated, as well as the introduction of soot particulates into the atmosphere melting snow caps and consequently increasing the albedo of the planet.

    However, and this is the key point, I suspect that his science is more solid than yours. We're spewing hydrocarbons into the air and the global system cannot adapt fast enough to get rid of them. Like an automobile, when the filter gets clogged, everything begins to break down, introducing a positive feedback loop that will most likely end up causing the planetary system to sputter, cough and die. It'll eventually clear the filters on its on, but I rather doubt we'll be around to appreciate it.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:40 | 1583469 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    OMG, a rational agnostic.... I can accept that.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:34 | 1582056 Urban Roman
    Urban Roman's picture

    The science has been understood for 150 years. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it is impossible to understand. Not that financial fraud will help or anything, but the science is pretty solidly established.

    The sky is hotter now than it was 20 years ago. Measurably hotter, and the rate of change is currently exceeding the most pessimistic climate scientists' forecasts. Turns out most of us are going to live long enough to see it get much worse. With positive feedback effects such as the clathrate bomb, the climate shift may be quite dramatic.

    Could be like that little hickey in the fossil record between the Permian and Triassic.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:41 | 1582075's picture




    NASA satellite data from the years 2000 through 2011 show the Earth’s atmosphere is allowing far more heat to be released into space than alarmist computer models have predicted, reports a new study in the peer-reviewed science journal Remote Sensing. The study indicates far less future global warming will occur than United Nations computer models have predicted, and supports prior studies indicating increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide trap far less heat than alarmists have claimed.

    Study co-author Dr. Roy Spencer, a principal research scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville and U.S. Science Team Leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer flying on NASA’s Aqua satellite, reports that real-world data from NASA’s Terra satellite contradict multiple assumptions fed into alarmist computer models.


    “The satellite observations suggest there is much more energy lost to space during and after warming than the climate models show,” Spencer said in a July 26 University of Alabama press release. “There is a huge discrepancy between the data and the forecasts that is especially big over the oceans.”

    In addition to finding that far less heat is being trapped than alarmist computer models have predicted, the NASA satellite data show the atmosphere begins shedding heat into space long before United Nations computer models predicted.

    The new findings are extremely important and should dramatically alter the global warming debate.


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:19 | 1582950 Creepy Lurker
    Creepy Lurker's picture

    Crockett sites NASA, and you site YouTube. LOL

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 10:48 | 1583293 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    No, Crockett cites an article in Forbes written by an author funded by the Heartland Institute (Coal money) that spins an interpretation of the NASA data with a purposely chosen incorrect interpretation.

    BTW notice the spelling of cite

    check this for more details


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:53 | 1583495 RSloane
    RSloane's picture

    Nice virtual slap. LOL!

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 13:32 | 1583574's picture





    With a red herring, no less.

    Here's the original report unfiltered by Forbes. Note the title then read the report.

    On the Misdiagnosis of Surface Temperature Feedbacks from
    Variations in Earth’s Radiant Energy Balance

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 19:14 | 1584292 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    Why don't you look up and see what fraction of Roy Spencer's funding comes from Exxon?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 15:01 | 1583756 steve from virginia
    steve from virginia's picture


    Spencer; Another energy- industry whore pretending to be a scientist.

    Why doesn't he go back to beating his dog?

    It's one thing to wear an 'Aeropostale' tee shirt, another to respew Aeropostale's opinion about anything other than tee shirts.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:46 | 1582595 IQ 101
    IQ 101's picture

    The science has been understood for 20 years? and you happen to be 23ish,right, and you have been to collij and Al Gore sez u are smert,

    You iz smert,very smert like yer mommy said yu wuz.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 00:06 | 1582831 Urban Roman
    Urban Roman's picture


    Give or take a few decades.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:21 | 1583898 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    Sure the Science has been understood for 150 years...more Warmist BS.  I seem to recall that in the 1970's, we were facing, (Gasp! ) Global Cooling.  Would you like me to cite the reference? See the following article from Newsweek in 1975



    There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production – with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.


    Same Scam, different liars.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:36 | 1582973 ElvisDog
    ElvisDog's picture

    Anyone who understands serious computer modelling knows that even if you could accurately  model  all the variables that affect climate, the computing power simply does not exist.

    Bingo, Russki. I work in the field of computatoinal fluid dynamics, trying to compute air flow over airfoils, spacecraft and such. We've been doing it for 40 years or so and still can't get it completely right (especially for turbulent flow). Compared to CFD, climate modeling is orders of magnitude more complex. There is no fucking way those computer models are accurate. At best, they can be tuned to predict past temperature patterns, but predicting the future? Forget about it. It's techno-crapola that is used to mystify people who don't know any better.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:39 | 1583244 NumNutt
    NumNutt's picture

    Right on! It is funny, the weather people can't tell me if it is going to rain next week, but we are supposed to believe that they can predict the weather a 100 years from now. bullshit.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 19:17 | 1584302 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    That's real deep.... you do know that climate is not the same as weather, do you? Weather tends to depend on the climate....

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 09:30 | 1583234 Calmyourself
    Calmyourself's picture

    The science is puffed up nonsense designed to attract more funding..  But it does not matter, true or not.  You do not put brakes on a civilization built on fossil fuel spin it on a dime and go Green ask China they will tell you. 

    If the science were completely true adaptation is the only answer but the Greenies will never admit that.  Adaptation would be done by private industry, bolstering shoreline, moving populations etc.  That give little increase i n Government control.  Now putting energy production and usage under Government control that makes Greenies happy oh and Commies too, but I repeat myself..

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:17 | 1581595 Thomas
    Thomas's picture

    That explains the odd odor emanating from my living room. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:48 | 1582094 Urban Roman
    Urban Roman's picture

    You live with the Dudester?

    I thought he replaced that pissy carpet.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 15:07 | 1581710 G-R-U-N-T
    G-R-U-N-T's picture

    "If you piss in your living room, whenever you feel like it, eventually it will smell."

    As your own experience dictates eh Troll?

    Most environmentalists associated with government imaginary image agenda making, in this day and age, have one agenda in mind and that is loot industry and the masses by taxing the air they exhale.

    Everyone that is spawned by the notion that anthropogenic CO2 causes atmospheric temperature change which by it's very nature is insignificant can redirect their own CO2 right up their ass. We will supply the tubes while you supply your Utopian gasses bullshit.


    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:10 | 1581868 dark pools of soros
    dark pools of soros's picture

    to hell with global warming, the pollution will kill us first - all this debate about global warming allows the real crimes to keep going under the radar

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:30 | 1582043 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture


    "...the pollution will kill us first..."

    You never visited the LA Basin in the '70s, or visited Cleveland and the Cuyohoga River, e.g.:

    Chrissie memorialized this and a certain harmless fuzzball reminds many more than 200 times/year, e.g.:

    Nyet, tovarich, the environmental regulations such as those on invisible gas that humans make naturally will extend the crimez.

    - Ned

    {OT-test this phrase should be in strikeout}

    {OTOT-test case works in edit window, not in the posted comment.  Here's an anomaly}}

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:31 | 1582050 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    I agree with this although global climate change is occurring. The whole CO2 thing isn't the issue in my mind. The resource depletion and pollution and associated mass dieoff of species is what worries me. The real crime is destruction of the ecosystems due to stupid extraction methods that are nothing less than the rape of the earth resulting in vast areas with very little in the way of healthy ecosystems. Whatever though, people will go off the deep end on anyone who threatens their comfy little profit-centric models.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:25 | 1583905 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    This is exactly why we need to confront the  AGW kooksters lies. There are real, serious environmental issues that are being ignored in favour of the mendacious agenda of the Al Gore AGW criminal cultists.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:29 | 1581894 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    Yehaw! Great post, GRUNT.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:56 | 1581955 weinerdog43
    weinerdog43's picture

    Yeah. If you're a moron.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:26 | 1582174 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    I'd rather be a moron than a mind controlled AGW religious fanatic.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:51 | 1582603 IQ 101
    IQ 101's picture


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 02:44 | 1582625 G-R-U-N-T
    G-R-U-N-T's picture

    Cry me a river weinerdog.......You have been sold a bill of goods which has been manufactured by leeches whom will do anything to enslave the masses, through taxes and fees. Anyone retarded enough to believe their nonsense lives in an alternative reality.

    We moron's just like kicking the shit out of the obvious especially to those that have bought into the pseudo manufactured fantasy that the air we exhale is destroying life as we know it.

    Like I shared with Bring the Gold below..."Good lord man...Get your head out of your ass please!"


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:50 | 1583795 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    It's anthropogenic forest destruction that is the biggest problem imo and it's related diminishment of carbon fixing. The loss of equatorial forests the "lungs" of the earth has been shown to be very destabilizing in regards to temperature. Of course the CO2 scammers - that you are very justified to bag on I agree - make no mention of reforestation or ecosystem restoration. I suspect that this is because like you (I hope you are profiting and not just a dupe) they profit off the unmititagated, unsustainable rape of the planet. The difference is they have an exit strategy.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:26 | 1582041 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    Amen Confused. Spot fucking on. Global climate change and environment destruction is VERY real, it's just that the power elite are attempting to "never waste a crisis" by hijacking it with totally futile Carbon credits etc. Just because scammers are scamming doesn't mean they aren't using a real phenomena as the back drop to their scam. Carbon credits are just another elite scam attempting to fleece the sheep as long as possible before they hunker down. They get it and are preparing accordingly, guess what...their plans don't include you deniers other than the above fleecing and the soon to occur die off.

    What we SHOULD have been doing is working to reforest the equator, cleanse the oceans and water systems, star detoxifying soil, and figuring out how to make technology that works with nature instead of against. For years I tried to push these sorts of efforts and invested accordingly, but thanks to the myopic asshole deniers above any attempt to invest in alternatives was crushed by the much cheaper Rape the earth relentlessly paradigm humanity has embraced since ancient times. A fair portion of the world's deserts are a testament to the fact that our ancestors didn't "get it" either.

    People act like acknowledging the evnironmental degradation that is obvious to anyone who lives near nature will somehow CAUSE the danger. Where I live the number of clear cuts and associated destruction of fishing and hunting grounds is off the charts in the past 20 years. There are vast oxygen poor dead zones on my local coast along with the associated die offs. I've been to the third world and saw how the ignorance there of clear cutting the hillside above their village resulted in a catastrophic mudslide that killed thousands. So it's not just over educated type A wall street types that have this mentality, it's a species wide illness except in the rare indigenous group or sub-culture that puts sustainability as the core culture value over personal profit.

    I would be willing to be that all the people who are in denial about this live in the artificial citie-scapes we've created. Poisoned deadened wastelands which only the most scavenging non-human species can survive, rats, pigeons, roaches. They act like we can just grow meat in a vat and see peak oil as a profit opportunity instead of a grave warning.

    They are all in for a rude awakening although what it will take to wake them up to the environmental reality is hard to say given the smack you in the face realities of the past 10 years. All the "counterfactual" evidence is narrow attempts to debunk global WARMING and pawn off environmental destruction to solar cycles. Who funds most of this "research" why it's big resource extracting companies (oil, coal, gas, timber etc.). Global climate change barely worries me compared to species loss and environmental collapse.

    We're not killing the planet, although we ARE killing species like nuts. What we're doing is fucking ourselves royally. We aren't killing all life on earth, just the bits that allow us to live (We're not robots you stupid fuckers) along with everything else that stands between us and profit. Life will go on, but it might take 50 million years to get the kind of species diversification we have had since the rise of humanity.

    So party on wall street hedge fund managers and stock jockey's, live in denial, perhaps when the coke and liquor runs out you will start to come face to face with reality that would be all too obvious to you if you go out of your little concrete boxes and went to a non-resort area where resource extraction is occurring (with the comparatively rare responsible harvesting). You guys can talk counterfactual theories all you want, I can take a one hour drive and see the reality. Guess what smarties, your wrong...DEAD fucking wrong. And yes emphasis on dead, sadly you are taking the rest of us with you.

    So rock the fuck on guys, tilt at profit windmills and deny reality the way you denied corruption in finance/politics because it benefited you. Your sudden awakening didn't happen until you got cut out of the profit streams and your sole way to profit was to figure out where the corrupt were headed next.

    Funnily enough, our sole hope at this point is some kind of huge collapse in industrial society and a mass die off. Yeah, I'll probably get smoked too and my family although I've been trying to prepare with all this in mind.

    It's a pity you all fought tooth and nail to keep these realities from being acknowledged. We had a chance 35 years ago to stem the madness and maybe bring economics and technology in line with our environment. Sadly, deniers like ya'll put that all on the skids and now we're fucked. I'm here like you too make money so I can feather my family's nest as best I can before hunkering down. I'm trying to extract capital from the system before it dies so I can buy the land required to have a snowball's chance of surviving the epic collapse we're headed towards.

    I do have a non-material hope, but I expect most on here would dismiss it so I won't bother other than to say I think this crisis will cause a TRUE awakening in humanity and if not, well...all hail the roach overlords who will inherit the earth.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:31 | 1582052 davidgn
    davidgn's picture


    Want to begin to discuss this issue without sounding like an idiot? Take the fucking course. UChicago is munificent. Start here.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 19:00 | 1582237 linrom
    linrom's picture


    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 19:02 | 1582243 DosZap
    DosZap's picture

    I am certai that w/the exception of Nuclear materials loosed enmasse, the earth is/has/always will be able to clean up what we screw up.

    Let's go back to the LAST drama that was the end of the world as we knew it.........

    The Ozone hole...............oh, shit.

    Was it getting larger , yep, were we cauing it, nope.

    Was it cyclical?.,uh, YES.......

    Did a bunch of loonies w/grants from people with a vested $$$$ interest fund them, and get the reports they WANTED?., uh, yep.

    It's the SOS over and over again.

    This place will fold like a tent when GOD say's so..........not when we do it.

    Rev 21

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:01 | 1582514 nmewn
    nmewn's picture


    What does it say about a "religion" where breathing out is just a cruel trick of Gaia, the deity

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:39 | 1582552 Taint Boil
    Taint Boil's picture



    The meek will inherit the earth – or something like that, more like Nature will right everything – it always works out in the end. Best advice (my opinion) just do what seems natural and right and you should come out ahead.


    We have only had oil for a couple of a hundred years .......... we got here Ok.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:37 | 1582587 G-R-U-N-T
    G-R-U-N-T's picture

    "We're not killing the planet, although we ARE killing species like nuts."

    WTF does that mean BtG?

    The only "species like nuts" I'm aware of are the government colluding pseudo scientists that have sold their soul to a manufactured belief that the air we exhale is killing all organic life as we know it. Good lord man...Get your head out of your ass please!


    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 17:03 | 1583973 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    Nuts of course being a colloquialism for madness. Thus I was saying we are killing species like crazy. Put another way, we behave like mindless suicidal psychopaths hellbent on killing ourselves along with every other species that evolved for the post Ice Age environment. 

    It's not the air we exhale that's the problem, it's that the concentration has been increasing as we have simultaneously put out tons of greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere and destroyed the mechanism(s) that fix CO2 out of the atmosphere (eg destruction of equatorial forests).

    It's like we're on a space ship and one group of asshats found out they can make a widget out of the life support systems (funny thing Nasa uses CO2 scrubbers in their space craft, the biological analog being forests). Those guys start making mad profits when their widgets sell like hot cakes.

    When people start to try and point out that if we dismantle much more of those systems we will all die and create science to prove this the widget makers fire back: "No, no those people are full of shit because there are...uh...other things causing us problems too even though, yes the temperature of the spaceship is rising to dangerously out of balance levels it's not OUR fault."

    Meanwhile, a second group of asshats (with a rather surprising bit of overlap with group one) is trying to get control of all widget making and the spaceship itself by proposing that everyone breathe less and give them more money.

    We ARE destroying the life support system, there ALSO are people who are trying to use this crisis to benefit themselves. However, merely and ONLY calling out the second group of asshats does nothing to remedy the problem of our life support system being destroyed.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 21:55 | 1582611 IQ 101
    IQ 101's picture

    Just don't get any of that Carbon Dioxide near my plants and we will be fine,

    Whats it like, do you see things and stuff? got med's?

    Or worse, Out of Med's?

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 17:06 | 1583981 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    Being generous here, I think you overbid the name of your avatar by about 50 IQ points.

    Nobody is claiming CO2 is bad for plants, unless they are talking about some specific species that needs an appropriate balance of gasses to flourish. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 23:31 | 1582785 old naughty
    old naughty's picture

    good analogy, and its not just the eventual smell that 'bothers' others...

    we are so special, science and social and econ (never mind that screw up...and for obvious reason, i do not wish to say the p-word) and we think we know it all? Think harder.


    We failed (and continue to fail) miserably.

    Someone is doing more than paging 'Universal Command'. ELE time. Brothers.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:17 | 1581875 Going Loco
    Going Loco's picture

    Does Tyler (or one of them) throw turds like this into the pot just to wind evryone up? Or is Tyler (or one of them) a panic depressive? Or is a crap post like this a clever bluff on the part of THE Tyler to throw TPTB off the scent? As in "If ZH posts crap like this ZH must be just an oddball bit of nonsense and we can ignore it"? If so, clever Tyler.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 01:28 | 1582963 Creepy Lurker
    Creepy Lurker's picture

    No, I think the Tylers just get a kick out of watching us go at it on the weekends.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 12:50 | 1583491 RSloane
    RSloane's picture

    Yup. Always follow the money.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 12:49 | 1581260 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    Can you cite anything by the deniers that has not already been discredited?

    Can you state in your own words, a rational argument that refutes "climate change"?

    If not, please STFU with regards to these matters, kay?

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:04 | 1581307 MayIMommaDogFac...
    MayIMommaDogFace2theBananaPatch's picture

    Post-Normal Science

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:16 | 1581350 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    I commented on this below.... follow the money and the real science

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:33 | 1581637 Waffen
    Waffen's picture

    The real money to be made is in what they would like to do with the Carbon Exchange.  Forcing everyone to buy into global warming and the taxes and emmsion controls and thus the carbon exchange will be a huge Boon. Back in 09 they were predicting it to be an exchange in the trillions.

    This is and has always been about money and control, not about "protecting the environment."

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:56 | 1581689 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    For the record, I have stated many times here that Cap N' Trade was a scam....

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:31 | 1581900 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    Re Cap and Trade being a scam,  good start. Now think it through and ask yourself who REALLY benefits from this scam, and you will then understand why so many of us dismiss the so called science behind AGW.

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:28 | 1583873 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    Ever had a problem with your car that you know is occurring? Then you take it to a mechanic you've never seen before? Then that mechanic tells you that yes there is a problem, but that you need many, many more expensive repairs? Just because the mechanic is jacking up the bill doesn't mean your car didn't have a problem.

    That's what's happening here, there is a REAL problem (climate change, pollution, species loss, ecosystem collapse) but the mechanic (politicians) are trying to gin up the bill and take our money. I don't want the politicians in control of energy use because these parasites are NOT our friends and care only about cementing power for the wealthy elite, thus the scam of taking a REAL problem, and offering a FALSE solution (carbon credits, government control of energy).

    The fact of the matter is this, if we don't do something to start restoring the enviornment starting with equatorial forests and the oceans we can pretty much kiss our collective asses goodbye. Oh sure we may not be totally wiped out, just lose 6 billion+ souls and have cockroach-like elites living in bio-domes (hopefully with Paully Shore as company for poetic justice sake) or underground bunkers.

    The folks on ZH though? Most of us are fucked chicken if we don't start addressing these problems. Don't trust the government? Well I don't fucking blame you, I'm way onboard that train. For the love of god though, quit denying that problem exists just because assholes have hijacked it for their own power grab. We need to start doing stuff such as sustainable shopping/investing and charitable giving to organizations that actually ARE trying to fix the very real environmental problems we face. We need to stabilize and restore the environment that gave rise to our species and upon which we depend for any kind of NON-hellish life.

    In a perfect world there would be capitalist methods for achieving this, but they require honest science (there's plenty regarding equatorial forest destruction and the related lack of carbon fixing) as opposed to the industry shill science of almost all AGW deniers (caveat: AGW is not the sole cause of the problem in that there are also solar cycles and so forth that effect the environment).  It also requires true costs where we also include environmental costs in our accounting. Subsidizing big polluting industries like coal and oil in the US isn't helping our situation either and certainly isn't a free market mechanic.

    The biggest problem with a totally free market attempt at a solution of course, is that unless we all woke up completely honest tomorrow, there is almost certain to be massive capital misallocation...exactly as has been ocurring since environmental degradation became a focus issue in the latter half of the 20th entury.

    At this point we would probably need a government sponsored space race type expenditure to get the capital moving in the right direction, which leads us back to square one...corrupt politicians. What are the answers? I don't know practically speaking as the problem seems to be the human ego-mind itself and it's tendency to seperate oneself from the universe and therefore the planet.

    What I do know is that denying that environmental mayhem is occuring is NOT going to help and is in fact ACTIVELY hastening our collective demise (elite cockroaches aside). So buckle up boys and girls:

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 15:25 | 1581761 CH1
    CH1's picture

    I followed the science, for years. Attended the big meetings. I also followed the money - all the way to lush research grants and dozens of NGOs holding expensive meetings and influencing idiot reporters.

    Anthro global warming is a fraud - and was from its beginning.

    Temps go up, temps go down, CO2 was a LOT higher at times in the past, and the sun rules all. (Duh!)

    I call Scam and I have ceased wasting my time on it.


    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 16:33 | 1581904 russki standart
    russki standart's picture

    I was in Bali Feb. 2010  and witnessed the money extravaganzas put on by the AGW'ers. Hotels that cost over $1000 per night were booked solid by these eco fascists. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:35 | 1582063 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    The eco-fascists are the polluters, clear cutters, species annihilators and their henchmen and useful idiots. The folks you don't like are fascist alright and eco-fascist because they in fact own the environment destroying industries that are causing all the destruction. Like a junk food company that also sells diarrhea pills they are trying to profit on both ends. Problem-reaction-solution is in effect, but that doesn't mean the PROBLEM isn't real, just that the proposed solution solves a different problem...namely how to make more money and consolidate power. 

    But yeah we really ought to roll back the eco-fascist tide and let people just dump arsenic in drinking water if it's profitable...starting with yours.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 19:05 | 1582253 CH1
    CH1's picture

    Again I call bullshit.

    Go look up "bifurcation fallacy" or "excluded middle".

    Sun, 08/21/2011 - 16:46 | 1583939 Bring the Gold
    Bring the Gold's picture

    Bifurcation fallacy? You mean on the part of the AGW = we need Carbon credits and control over your life crew? Well sure they are the very definition of scum who present false arguments. I didn't state that I agree with the stupid ass Al Gore (oil baron family + Carbon credits = profit on both ends) and others who present Elite solutions to the REAL problem of climate change.

    What I don't get is this, why are the folks who FINALLY admit that climate change is real, but is NOT caused by humanity seem to have no interest in pushing for solutions that address the problem? An example of a solution would be to improve natural CO2 fixing via reforestation of the equator and other proven ecological based solutions. After all, those are the only proven supporters of life known to humanity. I mean, if someone is hijacking a very real and dangerous problem for their own reasons we should just ignore the problem then right?!

    I see folks all throughout this thread say global warming is a reality...but they don't seem to be remotely interested in addressing it?! I've offered up some solutions that don't involve carbon credits (which are a scam I agree!). Strangely, none of the AGW is bs, but GW is REAL camp seem to have offered up jack shit. I suspect their loyalties and investments align strongly with CO2 emitting industries and that's their primary motive.

    Let's leave those industries aside for a moment and instead address other solutions that are ecologically based (the only proven supporters of human life) or do you just think everything is hunky dory with the environment?

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:33 | 1581419 Piranhanoia
    Piranhanoia's picture

    If you submit a counter argument, you might want to try something with no obvious bias. Citing Forbes is really the same as putting for a Goebbels/Cheney lie as propaganda and expecting people have to believe you. 

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:41 | 1581446 Maniac Researcher
    Maniac Researcher's picture

    Please continue this circular firing squad. It's amusing to watch the willfully ignorant and hypocritical ZH community snipe at each other. Luckily, an insignificant portion of you do anything in the physical sciences.

    In other news, this is a poorly written article with little empirical merit.


    Remember: Anti-intellectualism is where you go when you have nowhere left to turn. Sorry that reality doesn't match your dogma. That must sting a bit.

    [gets popcorn]

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 13:53 | 1581495 Use of Weapons
    Use of Weapons's picture

    Aaaaannnd +1000 hypocrisy points there.

    Judging a non-homogenous readership as a whole then applying universals to it? Luckily, an insignificant portion of trolls have training in philosophy or logic.


    Remember: Sarcasm and trolling is where you go when you have nowhere left to turn. Sorry that your psychological sophistication doesn't match your dogma. That must sting a bit.


    [gets popcorn]



    >Note: not all ZH community members share all of the same beliefs about the world. Think of it as a spectrum, or better yet - a political grid arrangement.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:09 | 1581560 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    Not a bad comment...

    re: political grid, science has always trumped ideology...

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:35 | 1582061 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture


    " has always trumped ideology..."

    Ya, the thermodynamic truth always wins; but when the losses can be localized while the "winners" import the patches, well, it can take a while.  Sometimes too long.

    - Ned

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:06 | 1581982 Maniac Researcher
    Maniac Researcher's picture

    If you choose not to see the ideological makeup of your community here, that's your problem - not mine. I need more popcorn.

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 17:47 | 1582092 New_Meat
    New_Meat's picture


    "I need more popcorn. ..."

    I've been wondering, how much popcorn production is being redirected to ethanol production.  See e.g.:

    Where, for the first time, the corn-->ethanol production has exceeded the corn-->feed volume.  And ethanol-gas has lower specific energy := lower fuel mileage, see ii below.

    I think that this basic article has sparked the first glimmer of truth: the elite policy that uses in excess of 1 BTU to deliver 1 BTU (including free solar contribution of long-term energy) is intentional in the "environmental collapse" scenario No. 2.

    and ii) mandated higher fuel mileage standards with mandated lower energy content in the fuel means intentionally squeezing the industrial economy.

    Dang, have we reaced "peak popcorn"?  Trav7777,  please chime in!

    But surely, the misdirected effort (continues to be subsidized, even at peak prices) should be cancelled in the face of high tortilla prices.

    nah, their "compassion" is for the words, never for the individuals, only for the "people."

    - Ned

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 18:58 | 1582235 Use of Weapons
    Use of Weapons's picture

    You see the shallow surface.

    I see the deep dark pools.


    Cave / Sun Platonic dialectic at work - and unlike you, I don't sneer at those still climbing.


    Stay ignorant, it is amusing. Oh... and I'm well aware of the ideological makeup of the community here, I think it is you who is representing in bad faith.


    Want to try a /full disclosure? I bet mine is more interesting!

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:06 | 1581549's picture

    "We've got to ride this global warming issue.
    Even if the theory of global warming is wrong,
    we will be doing the right thing in terms of
    economic and environmental policy.
    - Timothy Wirth,
    President of the UN Foundation

    Sat, 08/20/2011 - 14:10 | 1581566 Flakmeister
    Flakmeister's picture

    And what is the point of this post? Is there something that you want to say?

    Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!