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Guest Post: Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 4)

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Submitted by Zeus Yiamouyiannis from Of Two Minds

Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 4)

PART 4: Paying forward: Productivity principles and commitments

Simply put, “productivity” is giving to the future, instead of taking from the future. Parasitism is the opposite: Borrowing from the future to fund present desires without credible connection to future healthy growth. Successful productivity requires the development of beneficial new approaches to value creation and the rigorous identification and confrontation of approaches that destroy value and that destroy the environmental, financial, social, and personal fabric of human endeavor. Debt forgiveness is initially brought into play to address the latter requirement, but cannot be viable over the long haul without affirmative new ways to create and exchange value. Given that we have the collective integrity, self-preservation instinct, human will, and the sense of necessity to confront our broken system, let’s first establish philosophical and practical corollaries to guide debt forgiveness as “giving to the future instead of taking from it”:

1) Vitality and worth of debt forgiveness decisions and policies will be assessed on the opportunities they create broadly and systemically, not simply confine themselves to individual cases.

2) Debt forgiveness will support global health and significantly exceed “sustainable,” including creating surplus productivity and opportunity for future generations and not just mitigating current practices.

3) Debt forgiveness and subsequent laws will ensure future legal lending is tied to the success (productivity) rather than failure (parasitism) of the borrower and will not simply be offloaded to the government.

4) Debt forgiveness will promote autonomy and sovereignty not dependence.

5) Debt forgiveness will develop, utilize, and support the metric of actual “use value” over arbitrary mark-to-model “thing value.”

6) Debt forgiveness will have the requirement of breaking up monopolies standing in the way of a true discovery of “use value.”

Case applications of debt forgiveness that confront parasitism and reward productivity

With the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) movement people are beginning to turn their attention toward fully engaging society’s corrupted and powerful decision-makers and creating their own productive alternatives. Changing a system demands something greater from a citizen than merely voting. It means coordinated action on behalf of the public interest.

The recent success of 650,000 people “moving their money” (4.5 billion dollars) from “too big to fail” banks to local banks and credit unions offers a template of what coordinated effective citizen resistance and proactive alternatives might involve.

How can we effectively administer debt forgiveness that breaks our habit of stealing from the future and creates surplus in health and social wellness? The following examples will briefly analyze current primary debt arenas and dynamics, propose debt forgiveness strategies to confront parasitism (along with citizen strategies to break up monopolies responsible for most of the parasitism), and suggest viable alternatives going from the smallest to largest debt arenas—personal (credit cards), family (mortgages), generational (student loans), national (deficit spending), and global (environmental damage).

Credit cards: The personal is economic

Analysis: Consumer credit debt in America is currently about 0.8 trillion dollars. Two companies, MasterCard and Visa have a virtual monopoly on the processing end of consumer credit (with American Express and Discover rounding out the quartet) Credit card companies are multi-tens of billions of dollar businesses processing trillions in transactions that claim centrality to commerce because they ostensibly reduce transaction time and add ease, convenience, and record-keeping. However, they often are hugely parasitic, charging 3+% to businesses for using their service, 35 dollars for late fees, 30+% interest after missing a payment, and the list of excesses goes on.

With advancing technology, consumer charging and perhaps credit is becoming a relatively simple matter. It certainly would be possible to replace especially the debit function, break up the monopolies, and keep the convenience. Too many people are dependent upon consumer credit to pay for necessities like food, rent, medical care, and even education, so that must be addressed in debt forgiveness around consumer credit.

Intervention: Allow for (and protect/promote the right of) people to file for bankruptcy and discharge their credit card debt completely. If credit companies played fast and loose for on-paper profits and stepped up interest rates, then they should experience the consequences of overreach, i.e. default. Next time they should do a better job at ensuring collateral, looking at income, and being judicious with credit lines. The consequence for the consumer is a bad credit rating and the possibility of being refused future credit.

Credit companies can strike a deal to settle part of the debt in exchange for a preserved credit rating. That is already done now. The point is to wean people from unnecessary credit. For those who rely on revolving credit to meet basic life needs, communities can help by creating local currency based surplus supply and exchange networks for housing, food, certain medical care, and other necessities Making a Living vs. Making a Killing: Creating a Healthy Democratic Foundation for Economies (Part 2).

Going forward, it may simply be beneficial to cut out transnational corporations altogether, and once again re-awaken the tradition of local tabs for goods and services. For online purchases, there is an increasing array of charging options, and more could be developed by savvy citizens, non-profits, and start-ups.

Mortgages: Indentured families

Analysis: According to U.S. census data, mortgage debt totaled 13.8 trillion dollars at the end of 2010, 9.3% of which is delinquent (or about 1.3 trillion). With money like that in play and almost zero regulation, it is no wonder that housing was ripe for extreme manipulation. Between skyrocketing prices driven by easy credit, appraisal fees, tax revenue gains, transfer fees, etc., there was a lot of incentive to let the crooked times roll.

Now we have a full-blown extended housing bust with banks hiding the true nature and value of their mortgage loan “assets” turned liabilities. Homeowners are being caught in a no-man’s land of being unable to renegotiate reasonable principle reductions or tenably refinance, and taxpayers are being asked to backstop the housing debacle through government agencies like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. House sales are depressed. Nothing’s moving. People are holding their collective breath. Many predict and fear hysterical overshoots in housing prices to the downside. Government policies seem intent on trying to reinflate housing prices.

Intervention: It doesn’t seem prudent to simply encourage everyone who cannot pay the current mortgage to default and remove all pricing controls and force the selling off mortgage-related assets to get at the “true value” of unsold and defaulted inventory. Prices probably would crater. Panic likely would ensue, leading to a disordered cascade of insolvencies. However, we cannot stay where we are and tread water for a couple of decades nor can we reinflate the housing bubble. A kind of “middle path” debt forgiveness might be the reasonable course here.

Why not simply establish as part of debt forgiveness a coordinated common metric that housing be pegged to the inflation index for affected regional markets. Housing has followed that inflation index almost to a tee in the last 100 years. This is another way of saying that houses and land do not, in fact, gain relative value, but merely increase in price to keep even with dollar purchasing power. Land and houses in this scenario become a maintenance store of value, then, and not a phony producer of increased value.

Peg the loan interest rates for underwater homeowners to the bank savings rates (which are now almost zero), and add in only reasonable loan servicing costs. The point here is to break even, and move inventory in such a way that neither advantages nor disadvantages parties. If banks become insolvent in this arrangement, then they need to be taken into receivership and processed by the appropriate regulatory agencies.

Homeowners who cannot pay in the new value scale will default and move out. Others will have lower payments, but their homes will be worth nominally less asset-wise. These latter homeowners will have already suffered a hit and learned a lesson about living within their means in the inflated payments and interests they’ve already made. Houses that took advantage of this program would be price and time percent limited on subsequent ownership transfers and rental rates to prevent abuse and to allow more diverse populations to vie for housing in particular areas.

If one then eliminates government tax subsidies associated with mortgage interest, and proposes only fees associated with maintaining and servicing homes (municipal taxes, loan administration overhead, etc.), you have a fairly reasonable approximation of value, a "growth" in price which primarily maintains purchasing power of dollar, but adds no phony or subsidized "wealth". A house becomes something to live in. Nothing added. Nothing taken away. This is consistent with the principle that in the interest of quality of life necessities like basic food, housing, clothing, water, and medical care should not be treated as cash cows.

Moving forward as citizens, instead of focusing on the nominal asset value in home ownership, there is an opportunity here to focus on use-value: “How much does this or that obligation or opportunity support my larger, deeper physical, financial, mental, and spiritual health?”

If the nominal price of a house is too high to keep one out of debt slavery and directly serve deeper purposes, then one set of options is to refuse to buy it, or sell it. Its use value is negative. Instead, share a house, invest in a housing cooperative, or rent a house within your means. Even a house that has lost “thing” value (asset value), has largely maintained its “use value”. By focusing on use value we can combat the human penchant to psychologically obsess over the roller coaster of nominal asset gains and losses.

Sales commissions, especially large ones, invite skewed risk evaluation, conflict of interest, and price inflation. For this reasons reputable sources will always advise potential customers to get a flat-fee or hourly rate professional for financial planning. However, the same logic holds true for realtors and mortgage brokers. To break up those monopolies, citizens could team up to insist on flat-rate assisted selling/buying and to create Wiki-like databases making house purchase information fully transparent and available (in a way that goes beyond MLS listings and National Association of Realtor propaganda).

In addition circle and peer-to-peer lending could be developed further with technology and updated practices to create a pathway around banks and brokers in financing a home. These moves could significantly increase housing market volume and mobility by decreasing transaction costs and eliminating dependence on middlemen.

Student loans: Generational con games

Analysis: Total university student loan debt just recently passed the one trillion dollar mark in the United States, eclipsing the 100 billion mark in 2010 alone. College tuition has risen 7.45%/year in compounded terms since 1978, doubling the inflation rate and far outpacing the already outrageous increases health care costs.

It seems astounding that something, higher education, so intrinsic to personal growth, economic well-being, and the viable future of the world has been held hostage by a monopoly consortium of public and private “higher” education institutions charging such exorbitant and unjustified prices.

No one seems to be advocating for the student. If anything it’s the opposite—an incentive for turnover and student failure is being established. Predatory private lenders gain greater profits through collector’s fees and penalties if students default. Then they send the hollowed-out remainder off to the government guarantor. For-profit colleges like Phoenix University get to keep semester tuition payments even if a student drops out after four weeks. These private agents don’t care how inflated their promises were. They have the students’ money. Legislators don’t seem to seriously care either, since they can use taxpayer money to backstop student loan default after they promise better deals to young voters.

Today’s college students graduate with record debt and enter a world of unprecedented economic contraction. The promised high-paid jobs are not there. Even many of the fairly low-paying entry-level jobs are scarce. An entire generation of aspiring youth is being set up for life-time debt slavery unless some form of debt forgiveness can be worked out.

President Obama’s recent “Pay as You Earn” plan to re-gauge repayment of student debt seems to have some valid ideas like basing loan repayment on a percent of income (10%) and limiting student debt horizon to a maximum number of years. However it only covers debt incurred since 2008 for people who have not yet graduated college. It thus excludes a vast majority of young debtors and nearly all of the current trillion dollars of student loan debt. That is not forgiveness; it’s vote-appeal rhetoric that does not actually challenge the parasitic players.

Intervention: Is there an alternative in the near term? Is there an option besides civil resistance and unilateral intentional default unilateral intentional default? Effective debt forgiveness and applicable policy have to bring everyone in as stakeholders in the post-graduate success of college students and, thus, the larger society that depends upon productive citizens. It also has to recognize and align debt payment with economic productivity curves and economic contingencies instead of simply trying to extract more from the borrower regardless of context.

This means due diligence, support, and re-negotiation if necessary. Private loans should not be government guaranteed, and they should exert the same lending standards as those required for a small business loan. Government loans, especially for financially riskier or disadvantaged students, might accept non-financial productivity currency as debt payment (i.e. pro-social work as a national volunteer).

Colleges who dramatically underperform on their promises and to industry standards should be required to refund a portion of the tuition they received, the same as any business would with defective merchandise. In principle, each student should be granted the opportunity to pay off student loans as percentage of income ending in complete forgiveness after a fixed term (pro-rated to total debt) or erase student debt altogether in exchange for specified pro-social volunteer work.

Going forward, I believe the best way to attack this problem of ballooning, onerous student debt is to preclude the debt in the first place by creating competitive alternatives to the current monopolies of high-priced lending and low-delivery higher education. Why not have community sponsorship for students who commit to coming back and sharing their skills, as we sometimes see for rural doctors?

Why not take advantage of circle and peer lending to borrow from pools of citizen-invested capital and cut out parasitic private lending? Why not develop and accredit alternative education which focuses on practical application of knowledge and makes professional certification a customized process of achieving certain high standards on publically available tests, internships, and practicums, thus rewarding outcomes and innovative, time-saving, and accessible learning?

by Zeus Yiamouyiannis, Ph.D., copyright 2011. All opinions presented in this essay are solely those of the author.

About this series: Given accelerating conditions and trends in Europe, the U.S. and Asia, debt will be renounced, forgiven or written down, and how that process unfolds is now of paramount importance. Will private entities who dined so gloriously on their profits now eat their losses? Can the public who has seen its fortunes commandeered mount an effective response? Will there be convincing practical alternatives to a rigged world economy based in debt expansion and servitude? The answer is "yes" to all three, contends this five-part series by longtime contributor Zeus Yiamouyiannis. The series offers practical analyses and blueprints for liberating the world from debt and thus freeing its people to pursue greater, more productive purposes. CHS

Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 1) (November 28, 2011)

Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 2) (November 29, 2011)

Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 3) (November 30, 2011)


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Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:06 | 1938720 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Can this series end please?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:15 | 1938755 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

He brings up great questions Dog. Idealistic solutions though. Peter Tchir level naivete.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:57 | 1939243 CPL
CPL's picture

Convincing him otherwise would be the same as discussing religion with a born again Christian.  Pointless.


Energy better spent elsewhere rather than attempting to decipher his mixed analogies and confusing around ten separate schools of finance into (well what it looks like to me anyways) a poor man's version of communism, with the benefits of a society that has infinite resources and happy/stupid people that don't mind losing their hard work.


Better argument is why not just kill anyone with a 2:1 debt ratio? 

Simple.  Fast.   Effective.  Outcome is the same.  But without the barnacles slowing down the boat.  If we are in the position to alleviate debt with the wave of a wand, why not the debtors life?


It was common practice in Greek and Roman history until the 2nd century.  Rack up debt, can't pay, off to the slave pit to be sold to cover your debt.  Barring that the debtor didn't kill themselves to expunge their debt from their family by stopping the family linage, then their holdings would be auctioned and their family thrown into the street (unless they had other plans). 

There is a reason the religion of Judism hated the Romans, and it's wasn't because of religious intolerance, it was because most of them borrowed, didn't pay and were sold as slaves to pay their debts.  It ran completely inline though with Jewish law.

If there is a debt jubilee it should be also met with the death jubilee.




Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:22 | 1939715 eblair
eblair's picture

What about the first revolt of the plebs when they marched to Mount Sacer and threatened to start a new city without the patricians?  The patricians buckled because they needed plebs for their army and they cancelled all the debts.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:49 | 1939833 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

The bulk of the debts are tied directly to the effectiveness of the fiat money system in racking up debt, and they are government debts. Do you have an idea in mind to end that profligacy, and restore constitutional money? Insisting on every irresonsible party paying their debts, a moral stand, seems like a high price to pay if it means maintaining the fiat system. I don't care so much about some flake who shouldn't have gotten into debt. The way things are going, a lot of that gets socialized anyway when it;s ultimately not paid. He and all his cohorts are insignificant compared to the government debt monster.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:10 | 1939896 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

Huh?  What?

You equate a poorly-written and excruciatingly long article series with  Then throw in another jab at another

Interesting to note that you didn't slam the general concept of a God, or mention Islam, Shintoism, or pet rock worship.  Just the Jew/Christian slice.

Please clarify.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:17 | 1938756 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Not soon enough.  The solution remains simple.  Prosecute the fucking fraud and stop rewarding the irresponsible behavior.  Time to reward the savors and innovators who have been doing their jobs, paying their bills and not buying crap they can't afford or trying to live beyond their means.  A real recovery will only come from those savors making careful investment in real productive places that bring real value to the marketplace, not investment in some bullshit "financial instrument" of doom that continues to allow paper-pushing fucknuts to continue stealing wealth by making bad bets and getting bailed out.  

At this point my employees and I welcome the collapse and so should anyone who knows that their labor is of real value.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:12 | 1939061 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>At this point my employees and I welcome the collapse and so should anyone who knows that their labor is of real value.<<<

Do you got this sentence on auto-fill or somehting?...Geezus, give it a rest.

Yeah, we know your "employees" on your 10 ac. will all show us how it's done.

Frankly, you ain't got enough bullets, or like-minded neighbors etc...when OccupyFarm movement rolls your way.

You can throw gold coins at them...oh, wait...all the gold coin will be confiscated by then.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:33 | 1939127 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Does it bother you that we know the value of our labor?  We can say it as many times as we like.  Undoubtedly you are a paper-pushing fucknut, otherwise it wouldn't bother you so much.  My company does business around the world with over 200 productive acres of land being managed right now by many veterans.

What the fuck good will "occupy farm" do when there is no fertilizer or crops to begin with.  Get over yourself and your fear and then actually go do something productive, otherwise you might as well rename the "occupy farm" movement SOYLENT GREEN.

Thanks for the laugh troll.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:54 | 1939229 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>My company does business around the world with over 200 productive acres of land being managed right now by many veterans.<<<

Wow...200 ac....Worldwide...Truly a multinational conglmerate.

Man, I hope you are growing pot, because that ain't a lot of acreage where I'm from.

And they will OccupyFarm well in advance of the fertilizer running out...IF it gets THAT bad...that the fertilizer runs out...and you haven't figured out how to farm without it...the value of your labor won't mean squat anyways.

OccupyCompostHeap is my advice to you.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:04 | 1939272 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Pretty pathetic trolling.  There is a very real cost for creating captial out of thin air without adding any real value. The world will re-learn this the hard way.  If you consider yourself compost, well that is your business.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:52 | 1940054 trav7777
trav7777's picture

nah he's're fucking crazy.

You do business all over the world, and you are welcoming a COLLAPSE?  Are you stupid?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:40 | 1939376 CPL
CPL's picture

Ummm, I'm in the 340 acre range and most of the city and suburban people won't be allowed to leave their situations.  Where you are is where you are going to stay.  Why do you think the governments of the world have militarized their police?  You aren't going anywhere.


As to the running of a farm, I'm not sure what you think happens is the after school special version of it but to have a profitable farm you have to be as self suffienct as possible.  IF you keep running out and buying things like seed and fertilizer you'll close your doors the same year unless your business startup plan takes it into consideration. 

I'm not even sure if I gave you a yard stick you could show me the size of an acre. With my 340 acres in rotation that's 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile.  (yes I know Canada is metric, the farming community is not)  Well it's a little bigger, than a half mile square but...anycase.


On 100 acres of just corn for seed, gross costs are around 300k to make 240k (ish) if you go outside to buy your seed and fertilizer.  If you don't your net is in the 140k range.  Just heritage corn seed with no genetic mutation btw.  Nothing else, chinese buy it all up and pay in PM's.


It's cash in hand first, then food.  Your idea is food first, cash later.  With that idea I can get nine women to have a baby in a month?  Don't think so.  If you think you are about to jump behind the wheel of a combine to start farming, feel free, just let us know where you need the ashes sent.

If you want to talk/learn about farming, the city of Brockville has courses at St Lawrence Seaway community college, it's a 3 1/2 year science degree with a secondary focus in business administration and tax law.  Might want to look into it, most of you will need it where you are getting assigned.  I teach the seminar on diary barn automation and robotics.  Where a single farmer can lower the farm hands to 3 or 4 per 200 acres instead of the usual 20.  If you are growing food, you need to pay at least ten guys per 200 acres.  Fruit property, you need around 300 per 200 acres because it's mostly manual labour that pays by the pound.  Work fast = get paid more, profit sharing basically, if you paid someone byt he hour...<shudder> no that wouldn't work unless it's the overseer.


Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:57 | 1939424 flattrader
flattrader's picture

I'm not sure who you are talking to here, me or LawofPhysics (who has nitrogen cycle issues) but,

>>>Ummm, I'm in the 340 acre range and most of the city and suburban people won't be allowed to leave their situations.  Where you are is where you are going to stay.  Why do you think the governments of the world have militarized their police?  You aren't going anywhere.<<<

I think you are optimistic about where everybody may be forced to "stay."

I've noticed this penchant for rural folk to believe they are somehow safe in an economic-societal collapse because they live out some ways from an urban area have guns, neighbors, gold etc...

Having lived in 3 different rural areas, I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth and merely wishful thinking.


Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:37 | 1939537 CPL
CPL's picture

Why do you think you get to keep your car?  If you are pretending the military doesn't get the first crack at energy resources and limit the distribution of it, you then are dreaming.


Okay here's an exercise for you and it will be exercise.  I'll use my own location.  Google maps tells me that it's a 19 hour walk to Ottawa.  Now load up a pack with water, food for a couple days for the walk there and then walk back.  Now do that with a pick up group of people that are more than likely strangers, armed to the teeth and attempting to find resources to bring back...maybe looking to stay?

Sure you won't run into the old Oregon trail scam?  You join up with a group only to be robbed blind, killed and thrown in a ditch.  Then the organizers go back, make up stories of restless natives and collect the next bunch.  If talking about a city like Ottawa, there are a million and half people here, most of them dumb as bricks with a half idea in their head of what country life is like.

You don't have to explain to anyone in a rural area about work, except the welfare bums of course.  it starts before dawn and ends when the animals are sleeping and you hope nothing happens during the night.


For a well trained team, I would say no problem.  For a pile of bumblefuck suburbanites that will still be wondering why the water isn't working and the gas station hasn't got any gas, ummmm...I'm leaning to a Jonestown outcome.


The laws and real life implimentation practice to control people from moving are already in place.  Take a greyhound lately?  TSA is there for you.  Cab?   DHS logs all trips, for those dumb enough to think the cab is private, it's not.  Photo, credit card information has been take, if a CC is used. 


No you won't get to keep your car.  You get to stay where you are.  Hope you like it until you are assigned somewhere else.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:15 | 1939693 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Funny that you think everyone is a bumblefuck suburbanite...and that distance is what will keep you safe.

There are a lot of ex-military, ex-police.  And a nineteen hour walk is not that far.

>>>Now load up a pack with water, food for a couple days for the walk there and then walk back.<<<

Many people have done that...with a 30 lb. pack.

A nineteen hour walk is about about 60 mi. at a slow to average pace of about 3 mi. per hour.

Again, not that far...that's your problem.

But, good luck with that.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:54 | 1940060 trav7777
trav7777's picture

HAHAHAHA...the rural areas in other collapsed states were the ones without power and any semblance of services.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:00 | 1939436 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Thank you, CPL. I've been writing for years to various ZH cubicle dwellers who think they will bug out to the country and grow their own food that farming is really hard and takes specialized, experience-based knowledge and skills.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:46 | 1939575 VekTor
VekTor's picture

I'm not even sure if I gave you a yard stick you could show me the size of an acre. With my 340 acres in rotation that's 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile.  (yes I know Canada is metric, the farming community is not)  Well it's a little bigger, than a half mile square but...anycase.

Not big on math, are you? 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:05 | 1939641 CPL
CPL's picture

It's 640 square acres to a square mile.  4840 sq yards to sq acre.


And for this conversation I'm not breaking out a calculator.  If you want to know the leveraged decay on an x2, x3, no problem we'll run the numbers. EBITDA?  Sure.


This?  No. 


Some pencil neck geek talking trash on food production on farms there's no need to type longer than 30 seconds into the text entry field.


Now back to work bumblefuck.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:26 | 1939884 VekTor
VekTor's picture

A plot that's a half-mile on each side is 160 acres, and 340 acres is not "a little more" than 160.  It's more than double.  That's not a question of being off by a touch.  It's not a swag.  It's basic ignorance about how acreage is figured.  A plot that was a half-mile by one mile would have been close to the cited 340 acres that "you have in rotation".

And for the record, moron, it's not "square acres".  Acres are already a measure of area.  "Square acres" is as meaningless as "cubic gallons".

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 20:45 | 1940499 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

+1 squarish cubical chuckles!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:21 | 1938770 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Is this hinting the use of more SDR's?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:41 | 1938905 Sophist Economicus
Sophist Economicus's picture

SDRs seem to have made a resurgence in internet chatter since Currency Wars hit the bookstores.   Now we have all the usual Internet regurgitators 'warning us' about them -- you know, Krieger, Two Dumb Minds, etc....

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:26 | 1939337 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Thanks.  THAT explains it.

Criminy freakin' sakes.

It does make for good clickbait on ZH though.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:26 | 1938814 HistorySquared
HistorySquared's picture

Let's substitute a system where people can lend unlimited amounts with no consequences for one where people can borrow unlimited amounts then walk away with no consequences. Ya, no moral hazards there. 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:11 | 1938740 stop.snitching
stop.snitching's picture

On a different note...Italian 5Y/10Y now inverted again! Saweet. A huge intraday turnaround of about 9 percent!!!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938747 Normalcy Bias
Normalcy Bias's picture

Oh, Dear God! It's a five-part series...

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938749 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Probably we dont need a government policy of systemic debt forgiveness.

Recognize existing losses and allow the bankruptcy system to do its cleansing of the system. Nobody gets freebies, neither debtor nor lender.

Debt forgiveness as a govetnment policy for specific sectors merely invites more moral hazard.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:30 | 1939118 DOT
DOT's picture


I kept mine, and now I am expected to gladly allow others to default with no consequence.


Only at the threat of violence is this possible.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938751 Fortunes Favor
Fortunes Favor's picture

Does this panic selling prove an investment thesis wrong? It does if you believe jumping off a cliff is right because everyone else is doing it.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:19 | 1938763 The Axe
The Axe's picture

FISHER  getting all crazy in Dallas...."social unrest coming to America!!! if we don't control the deficit!!!"  probably drinking some scotch for lunch!!!!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:07 | 1939899 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture


The 'Republican Jewish Coalition' has declined to invite Ron Paul to their nationally televised debate on Dec. 7th. Apparently, Paul is 'misguided' and'extreme'. More here:


You can email the RJC here:

And you can reach their ladies' group here:

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:22 | 1938781 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Yeah.. didn't read it. Dude (author), you're 3500 years too late! Moses came up with the whole debt-forgiveess plan, like, before you did. Moses even claimed a higher source, but guess what good that did? The whole debt-forgivness trip was IGNORED, IGNORED! Only once in the history of mankind was the plan enacted. (By good ol' Hezikiah, Ron Paul's previous incarnation) Whoop te do for that idea... put it in the round file, along with Tesla and Ron Paul, and all other hope for humanity.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:28 | 1938825 docj
docj's picture

And once again, all we need for this "plan" to work is the repealing of all basic human instancts and milennia of in-bred human nature. Plus some basic re-working of fundamental mathematical principles and Devine intervention.

Aside from that though, it's rock-solid.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:33 | 1938844 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture


Everyone wants 'cleansing', everyone wants the easy solution that avoids them and hits someone else, preferrably in China or France. Everyone is playing the same 'hot potato' game.

Can't forgive the debt because industrial enterprises are inherently non-productive. Business profits are borrowed: even if all debts could be made to disappear tomorrow by magic, new debt in amounts equal to the old would have to be taken on the following day, so as to allow the various businesses to function.

Keep in mind also:

 - Wealth equals debt (except for the following),

 - At some point the costs of managing any surplus (wealth) become greater than the surplus itself (this is Steve's First Law): wealth is constrained by physical and relational limits, debt can expand to the point of absurdity.

At the point of absurdity the loss of value of a fraction of the debt wipes out all of the wealth. This is manifest by the inability to let any finance institution fail, the costs associated with one large finance company would wipe out all the wealth.

There is no magic bullet to deal with our indebtedness, sorry. What is needed is careful deleveraging and reduction in our arbtirary industrial surpluses (wealth). The large part of this is resource conservation.

We either conserve or conservation is going to be shoved up our asses by events out of our control ... and time is running out.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:34 | 1939137 DOT
DOT's picture

I want a claw back. Make that a**h***, Jack Walsh, pay it back.

....and all the rest.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:40 | 1938901 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Wasn't there a Ceasar in the distant past that was murdered by creditors shortly after proposing a "middle road" path??

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:42 | 1938912 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

No mention of the billions worldwide whose pensions and super-annuities are keyed to the debt he wants to eliminate. No debt, no bonds, no retirement.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:52 | 1938959 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I've been critical of this series so far, but his suggestions for fixing housing, credit card, and student loan debt have some merit, in particular the idea of removing federal guarentees of student loans.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:56 | 1938981 Muenkey
Muenkey's picture

Hey wait...let me first go and buy the yacht, mansion and Rolls Royce, then you can have your jubilee. What total, utter nonsense.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:58 | 1938986 Elmer Fudd
Elmer Fudd's picture

The debt is going to be inflated away. Period.  And they dont care about YOUR debt, that needs to be paid off. Let's get off the magical fairy tale endings, its kind of silly and getting old.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:30 | 1939354 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Yep, inflated or hyper-inflated away as it will likely get out of control...then deflationary collapse.

Let's get on with it.

I would like it to be winding down by the time my kid is an old man and my grandkids stand a shot on the upside of the delfationary collapse part.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:31 | 1939356 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Yep, inflated or hyper-inflated it will likely get out of control...then deflationary collapse.

Let's get on with it.

I would like it to be winding down by the time my kid is an very old man and my grandkids stand a shot on the upside of the deflationary collapse part.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:15 | 1939069 bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

ive read all 4 parts,

in addition to bruce krasting and cd, this series has been one of the best on zh. not just bitching about problems and predicaments ---- this offers solutions.

i for one would offer that a full wholistic reform of bankruptcy and recievership and foreclosure and debtor creditor default laws----

a massive simplification and streamlining of the law--- and the BUREACRCY/court/advocacy system is necessay.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:35 | 1939141 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

You got one thing right.  Start by prosecuting the the fucking fraud.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:45 | 1939191 DOT
DOT's picture

".....a massive simplification and streamlining of the law--- and the BUREACRCY/court/advocacy system is necessay."


Which means it will never happen.

Simplicity and Bureaucracy are opposing forces.

btw, all lawyers should use spell check.....just sayin'

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1939136 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

As usual, no one touches Child Support, the biggest con of all. While everyone should support your children, no one should be REQUIRED to do it as the Government dictates. This is tryanny, not freedom. Here is how it works:

1) The Government invents a "debt or obligation" where none exists. This alone violates your God-given human rights as Father and head of the Family and is evil. God choose you to raise, support, and protect your family not the Government of Men.

2) The Government will then hold you in Contempt of Court if you refuse to pay the debt that they created. Yet, there are ways around this that are perfectly legal. One is have your child live with you. Refuse any child support, and raise the child yourself. If Mom is greedy and refuses to allow your children to live with you - then you need to - Two, offer to use the money for private school or college instead of sending an alimony check. Three, if it gets rough, put the money in an escrow account until she agrees. Don't tell anyone where the account is, unless you want it seized.  Four, stick to your guns. If you can survive 30 days in jail (about the max they will do - since you aren't refusing ); you will win.  Remember, this money is for the child, not for Mom's hair, nails, and a new car. The more the court and Mom scream at you, the more you can feel satisfied that you are correct. Tell the truth, and do not lie. Let them lie, because they will. That's how you can tell you are right and they are wrong. This is a system of pure evil and must be changed.

3) State/Local Governments collect 55% of the "debt" back to itself in the form of processing fees and a 50% (change to 30% may have happened, don't know)  reimbursement/well-done from the Federal Government. This is a self-funding system to continue the scam. If you pay Child Support, avoid paying through the system because you are indeed funding this evil directly. Pay to the Mother instead and keep written receipts. Show the receipts when you need to avoid punishment. Do not listen to them, they you are REQUIRED to pay to them. You aren't, this is false. Pay to Mom and get a receipt as I said.  The money is for the child, not for THEM.  The courts can do nothing as long as you pay. No one is going to punish you because they cannot collect their 55%.

4) Like Student Loans, Child Support cannot be discharged in Bankruptcy. This is a classic definition of debt slavery where a debt cannot be discharged, ever. It must be paid. However, Mom can agree to forgive the child support in return for other concessions and the Government can't stop her. Figure out what she wants/needs and do a deal.  Keep control and you save stress and legal fees.

5) You will lose in court. The breadwinner (Male or Female - see Britney Spears) always loses. The Breadwinner is always harshly critized and lied about while other Party is praised.  This is the excuse to increase Child Support awards and force you to pay attorney fees to the other side. Facts and truth don't matter very much. What matters is who has the money that they can steal. That is the key to the system and shows its bias. So avoid the court, they are corrupt. 

Above all else, this is your children and your family. You must protect them from evil.  Ask God for help, and he will. He's on your side on this issue.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:27 | 1939342 TeresaE
TeresaE's picture


Wow, hang out in the hood much?

Cause the whole "I'm not paying because mom lives in the house too" is really, really, popular there.  Goes well with the whole "baby-daddy" thing and multiple kids that you can't afford.

If you don't want to support YOUR children, it is simple, don't have sex.  Or, better yet, *snip* *snip*

Sorry buddy, while I agree that the state & courts are evil and their methods insane, to allow men to walk away isn't going to SOLVE anything.

Except to create MORE women and their broods on the public tit.

I didn't have your orgasm, so why in the hell should I be forced to support your kid?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:31 | 1939355 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

As I said above, you can always tell who's right and who's wrong by the lying.  Why are you lying about what I said TeresaE?



Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:45 | 1939393 DOT
DOT's picture

maybe..."He's on your side on this issue."

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:52 | 1939410 CPL
CPL's picture

He's correct though.  When someone gets married to someone debt ridden, the oweness of the debt becomes the problem of the spouse as well.  Lots of that nowadays.


The child support...well, that money, regardless of how it is spent is saved for the kids in the situation.  weird how the line of alimony and child support are blurred like that.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 18:08 | 1940116 SymforniX
SymforniX's picture

My ex doesn't work, and doesn't plan to, because she doesn't have to - I pay my %, as required by law.  There is no option to get receipts; there is no option to pay expenses, or a portion thereof; there is only one option, which is to handover the cash.  No verification of any kind by the system which imposes the debt..  The whole scam has NOTHING to do with the children or their wellbeing.

She is a felon, with no education, no car, and no drivers license.  If I die unexpectedly, the next stop for her is welfare.  My kids are the benes in the life insurance policy, with their grandmother as the custodian; so I can rest easy in the afterlife.  With this legal arrangement (god forbid if something did happen to me), she would have to beg for the money from her mortal enemy (ex-in-law) on behalf of my kids :)  Makes me want to have an 'accident' LOL

Point being I can see where OP is coming from: There is no choice - I am forced to pay child support and she can use it any way she wants.  'Child support' is not even the correct terminology.  My kids wear reale shop clothes while her hair and nails are 'done' at all times.  Nothing I can do, unless I A) buy them the new clothes they deserve ON TOP OF paying cs, or B) Win the lottery and can hire a lawyer to get custody - which I would do in a heartbeat.  (hint: free legal for her to boot!)

And that is what it's all about, isn't it?  Leveraging my misfortune to the systems' benefit?  

"(S)He who hath the dough can afford the lawyer to get the kids" -- Symfornix's law...

Either way, I love my children, and that is why I adhere to this corruptitude.  Threat of incarceration does not prompt me whatsoever.

PS > It's sad (and ironic) that I am hijacked by my love for my kids to obey a fradulent system I hate.

Good luck and much love to you all.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:42 | 1939390 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>Yet, there are ways around this that are perfectly legal.<<<

and then goes on to list three ideas/strategies that will be roundly rejected by the court and/or are illegal and then goes on to explain how you might have to spend 30 days in jail.

Yeah, perfectly lega....

JLee--Don't give out legal advice.

Rest of ZH--Don't listen to JLee give out legal advice.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:16 | 1939694 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

100% Incorrect. Child Support is a civil matter, not a criminal one. Not a single strategy I mentioned is illegal. 

People are placed in jail for "contempt of court" (refusal to obey the court) and not for child support. This again, is a civil issue, not a criminal one.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:04 | 1939894 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Uh, a distinction without a difference...once you find yourself in front of a you yourself note. be prepared to spend 30 days in jail.

Good luck with those perfectly "legal" strategies.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 20:37 | 1940487 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

I've already spent longer in jail over this.  I have no fear of them, or jail, or of mindless idiots like you who would support this evil.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:50 | 1939583 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Sure he loses.  The DNA doesn't lie.  But you're right--no mandatory child support.  Mandatory vasectomy instead.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:48 | 1939209 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

The biblical references to debt forgiveness are legitimate. The problem with their application has to do with degree with which individuals are willing to apply them.

A fifty year cycle of familial RE possession is at the heart of the counsel with repatriation of original title to the legitimate heir. How one could apply this principle to today's climate would be interesting to say the least.

Nehemiah faced a similar dilemma when the repatriation of exiles from Babylon occurred. Repudiation of fiscal debts by fellow citizen's of the country was called for and accepted, although rather reluctantly. Only after the reminder that the sovereign had actually been responsible for everyone's freedom, did the lien holders acquiesce and provide debt forgiveness to their own countrymen and women.

One reason given for Japan's rather long foray into the print debt to oblivion is the rather unique ability to remain a rather tight, close knit community and buy their own debt from themselves.

At the risk of reporting that water is wet, common land, language, blood and beliefs can outweigh the "strength" of diversity that's promoted by many western societies. imo.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:50 | 1939213 Jordan Kanter
Jordan Kanter's picture

REPUDIATE YOUR DEBT.  Get ready for the coming deluge: DEBTORS' REVOLT -- DEFAULT EN MASSE.

I am an economics and finance professional (retired), a former insider, and I tell you: the predatory lending system is a cancer on our economic future.  Starve the cancer of its nutrients then.  

Spread the meme.  Collapse the predatory banking system.  Just say no - don't play their rigged game any longer. 

And yes, it will cause widespread systemic collapse, but this will be temporary, we will adjust and rebuild, and will have cleansed out the massive DISTORTIONS that currently plague the system.

DEBTORS' REVOLT -- DEFAULT EN MASSE. The momentum grows. The critical mass is near. 
...And to the folks who will immediatel­y answer with "pay what you owe. end of story!", let me just preempt by answering that the analysis is more structural and macro in scope than that. It's not just a matter of whose "fault" it is - regardless of that, it's become a macroscale systemic distortion that, if allowed to continue, will prevent any sort of mobility in the long term. We, as a nation, need to simply suck it up, recognize that these contracts were made in what is essentiall­y a different economic era, and recognize that they are incompatib­le with the new situation. It has to simply be zeroed, reset. Rebuild from there.  DEFAULT EN MASSE. 
Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:57 | 1939242 DOT
DOT's picture

Please explain why You get to default.

I paid my obligations. It begs the question, "why are your debts different?"

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:02 | 1939267 Jordan Kanter
Jordan Kanter's picture

Climb out of your myopic "I, me, mine" worldview, and look at the debt problem on a systemic, macro-scale level.  See what's on its way if we allow the current system to perpetuate - think of the consequences of failure to hit the reset button.   Narratives of 'individual responsibility' and 'contractual duty', etc., no longer exist when the system has been captured, the rules rigged, and the empowered parties predatory. 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:33 | 1939362 TeresaE
TeresaE's picture

The problem with your "plan" Jordan, is the same problem that has faced mankind for centuries...


... those people yelling "hallelujah" the loudest will be the same ones that cave and continue to pay as those dumb enough to "opt out" watch their lives stripped bare and the clothes on their backs rot away to rags.

Human nature.

We CAN'T "starve the beast," for cripes' sake, FOOD STAMPS, social security and unemployment benes are on credit cards and the banks get PAID for them. Not to mention tax refunds and payments.  All paid through the BANKS!

While it feels really good to believe in Utopia, reality is usually a much darker place.

Besides, all we have to do is wait it out.  At the rate Benny & the Inkjets are printing, it won't be long now before our dollars are worthless and our current personal debts get the same bonus the government is planning on to pay theirs - debt repayment with seriously inflated $$$.

No problem, just a little while longer and that crash you wish for will be here.

Sooner or later, it is going to be very easy to pay off those credit cards & overvalued homes.  Too bad milk will be $20 a gallon, but hey, beggars can't be choosers.

Fiat on


Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:56 | 1939599 Jordan Kanter
Jordan Kanter's picture

Who the heck is believing in Utopia, woman?  Your comment is condescending and misunderstands what I wrote.  Try again. 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:50 | 1939403 DOT
DOT's picture

When there is no good will left all "agreements" will be made at the point of a gun.

Don't be myopic, just give me your wallet mother fucker. 



...and that watch too.

Sat, 12/03/2011 - 01:02 | 1940935 VekTor
VekTor's picture

See what's on its way if we allow the current system to perpetuate - think of the consequences of failure to hit the reset button.   Narratives of 'individual responsibility' and 'contractual duty', etc., no longer exist when the system has been captured, the rules rigged, and the empowered parties predatory.

You continue to engage in this fallacy of presenting a false dichotomy.  Failing to embrace this ridiculous "default en mass reset button" does not imply that the ONLY alternative is for the current system to be perpetuated without change.

Want to break out of the current system?  Prosecute the lawbreakers (most definitely including those who have perpetrated fraud - ALL OF THEM), eject the corrupt and captured politicians at the ballot box, let failures fail (both personal, business and government), use the rule of law to legally engage in bankruptcy along with all of the concomitant negative side effects in cases where obligations can no longer be met, pass legislation with teeth which greatly increases transparency, and the current system is no longer in operation... without requiring the most sweeping implementation of universalized theft ever witnessed on this planet.

Sat, 12/03/2011 - 03:27 | 1941129 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

And this ends the fiat money system how?

That is the root of the problem. Demanding that everyone pay ginned up debts absolutely insures that it will continue.


And it ends intergenerational enslavement and parasitism how?

Those people saying 'I paid my debts, others must pay theirs' would the next day be bitching about some aspect of the fiat money system. Their sense of 'fairness' is what will keep fiat alive. Fiat binds its creditors and reliable debtors to it, as these comments show. It doesn't even have to defend itself or offer a defense - you'll defend it to make sure your neighbor doesn't get some windfall that you didn't want or get.


There's one way out: Somehow, the idea that governments can be trusted to borrow money has to end. Show me a way to get there, the rest will take care of itself. I only see hard money ending government profligacy, and these debts sure as hell won't ever be paid in hard money. "it's not fair' = perpetual fiat and enslavement of all mankind. Show me another way out of the _ongoing_ debt trap.

Sat, 12/03/2011 - 13:57 | 1941655 VekTor
VekTor's picture

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.  This has far less to do with "fairness" than it does with the rule of law.

I was pointing out that it doesn't take some ridiculous debt jubilee (universalized theft) to change from where we are now to something different.  It's a false notion that the status quo and default en mass are the only two options available.  I pointed out realistic, actionable items that could make a noticeable difference.

Would those changes make things perfect?  No, of course not.  Would waving a magic wand and altering the past to ensure that fiat currencies had never been implemented anywhere make things better than what I proposed?  Almost certainly... but in the world I live in, magic wands that actually work don't exist.

Do I very strongly favor hard currencies?  Absolutely!  I expect we're going to see the creation of the gold swiss franc or the equivalent before too long, and it would be a significantly welcome alternative to the current crop of fiat currencies, and more liquid than the current anti-fiat alternative, precious metals.  I believe it would greatly reduce transactional friction between hard and fiat currencies.

But the thing is, the creation of one or more hard currencies does not actually stop any given country from issuing their own fiat currency... so that doesn't meet your quixotic criterion of "ending the fiat money system", now does it?

Tell me, what is your actionable plan for accomplishing that goal, taking as stipulated that it would be a good outcome if accomplished (and somehow maintained in perpetuity)?  How exactly do you plan to make that laudable goal come to fruition?

This stupid "default en mass" idea doesn't get there... it simply legitimizes theft on a scale never before seen, inducing mind-numbing amounts of moral hazard along the way.

"Everyone gets to keep their shit, and no one has to pay for it.  RESET! WINNING!" is not a plan.  It's a fantasy which raises irresponsibility to a position of primacy.  Think that's going to fundamentally change human nature going forward for the better?

That's basically what it would take to accomplish that fantasy, if you hadn't noticed.  To "end the fiat money system", it must (by definition) be eliminated everywhere... otherwise, you've simply altered where it is being practiced, not ended it.  How do you plan to force every country in the world to stop using fiat currencies?

Will you claim you're being misunderstood, that in fact you only want the option to participate in a market where your wealth is not degraded over time by the inherent flaws of fiat currency and fractional reserve banking?  Well, to an extent, you already have that option, even without any explicitly hard currencies issued by governments.  There is, of course, some transactional friction, but that's at the margins. 

Store your weath in precious metals, and convert to fiat when necessary to transact with governments which do not accept payment in your hard currency of choice (like gold ingots).  That is, after all, precisely what you'll have to do after the creation of one or more government-administered hard currencies like a gold swiss franc.  You'll have to convert between currencies (with the associated transactional friction and costs) to deal with anyone who is not denominating in that currency... or will you deploy your magic wand and somehow force everyone going forward to use NOTHING BUT hard currencies?

I'd dearly love to see your realistic plan for getting there without the use of such a magic wand.

Yes, the current system is deeply broken. 

That doesn't imply that nothing short of globally-enforced fantasies can improve matters.  Advocate responsibility and accountability, advocate the rule of law, advocate and use hard currencies, advocate the severe punishment of fraud.  Advocate natural consequences by allowing failures to actually fail, rather than getting bailed out.  If some government decides to shift entirely to a hard currency, consider supporting that by moving to that country.

Do things that are actually doable.

Somehow, the idea that governments can be trusted to borrow money has to end. Show me a way to get there, the rest will take care of itself.

Your plan is to end an idea?  Good luck with that.  I don't expect that anyone will ever "show you a way to get there" that is actually congruent with the real world.

Sat, 12/03/2011 - 14:56 | 1941832 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

The 'idea' has already been thoroughly discredited, always benefitting the .01% who control the flow of funds. That is the system we have now. It is likely beyond repair, certainly minor repair. Rather than letting it fail utterly, we're going to prop it up, and prop up the ideas that got us to this point.

What you seem to be aiming for is a more credible and fair fiat system. That may not be your desire, but by working within the system you probably save it.

You asked what my plan is, here it is: Open the mint to gold and silver, and mandate that all goods and services be priced in both dollars and cents, and grains of silver and gold. Gresham's law only chases out the good money if it is priced at par with fiat. This way, the bad money is eventually chased out. Thankfully, debts are figured in dollars. As they become more worthless, it will be easier to alleviate debt, and with gold and silver as legal tender, transition to real money can take place over time. In the end, the dollar debt is extinguished (or more likely defaulted on), the dollars are destroyed, and we have something like a fresh start, with fiat freshly discredited.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:53 | 1939592 Hohum
Hohum's picture

But, DOT, you get to maintain a super duper credit score!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:53 | 1939225 iamme
iamme's picture

Stupid q, but:

Wouldn't it solve the problems if interest was abolished? I understand that you "pay for the risk", but why should a bank be paid for the risk, when on the other hand, if I put my capital to start a business, I don't get interest on that? I get profit if it goes well, lose my money if it doesn't. Why shouldn't there be no interest, and banks just give money for a percentage of ownership?


Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:09 | 1939282 The trend is yo...
The trend is your friend's picture

How about the poor schleps like myself who have saved, lived within my means, didn't keep buying a bigger house cuz i could, and nearly paid off my mortgage in about 10 years.  How does debt forgiveness help me?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:32 | 1939358 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

It doesn't, but the central planners and families on the other side of all that usury are counting on you not really caring and being a good passive, non-violent sheeple.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:00 | 1939613 Jordan Kanter
Jordan Kanter's picture

Yes, you sound like a good schlep, a good tool.  You did 'everything right', and good for you, and supported a predatory system that feeds on impoverishing your fellows citizens who fall on bad times.  

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:34 | 1939363 MagicHandPuppet
MagicHandPuppet's picture

Aren't there enough do-gooders in the world, trying to solve everyone else's problems for them?

The answers to the problems this author attempts to solve have been there all along and continually repeated by the Austrian School economists.  At this point, it's a complete waste of time to talk about rosey little "solutions" for a society that begs for mental enslavement and debt servitude.  What a bunch of rhubbish.

The only solution worth talking about is to first understand the scam, pay attention to the indicators, and act as an INDIVIDUAL to protect yourself and family... maybe even thrive through the incredible changes taking place (changes which are completely out of your control).

But, as long as "the people" vote for criminals that their favorite t.v. channel tells them to and who are owned by super wealthy parasites, then any talk of little fixes for society here and there is a complete waste of time, a distraction from what we need to be learning and doing as individuals, and basically just a public display of masterbation.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 18:46 | 1940231 VekTor
VekTor's picture

1) Vitality and worth of debt forgiveness decisions and policies will be assessed on the opportunities they create broadly and systemically, not simply confine themselves to individual cases.


I'm sure that broad and systemic opportunities could be created out of a policy whereby nine wolves and a sheep get to vote on what to have for lunch, and we therefore shouldn't concern ourselves with the individual case (or personal impact) of the sheep.

There's a reason we have a system in place to protect against the tyranny of the majority.  Private property, individual rights, and the rule of law are supposed to protect against notions whereby the interests of an individual are sacrificed for the good of "the system".

What is so blithely being referred to as "debt forgiveness" takes on a different perspective when you notice that one person's debt is another person's asset.  So when you're advocating the unwilling enforcement of "debt forgiveness" on someone who possesses that asset, it looks to me like you're really advocating the theft of someone else's assets for the good of the system. 

We have mechanisms in place already to deal with the circumstance where someone's debt is unmanageable.  It's called bankruptcy.  You get to discharge your debt, but you don't get to keep all of your crap at the same time.  There's a cost associated with it, which helps to compensate those who you impact in the process (your creditors). 

Want debt forgiveness?  Follow the rule of law, and declare bankruptcy.


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