Guest Post: Unleashing the Future: Advancing Prosperity Through Debt Forgiveness (Part 4)

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Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:06 | 1938720 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Can this series end please?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:15 | 1938755 GeneMarchbanks
GeneMarchbanks's picture

He brings up great questions Dog. Idealistic solutions though. Peter Tchir level naivete.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:57 | 1939243 CPL
CPL's picture

Convincing him otherwise would be the same as discussing religion with a born again Christian.  Pointless.

 

Energy better spent elsewhere rather than attempting to decipher his mixed analogies and confusing around ten separate schools of finance into (well what it looks like to me anyways) a poor man's version of communism, with the benefits of a society that has infinite resources and happy/stupid people that don't mind losing their hard work.

 

Better argument is why not just kill anyone with a 2:1 debt ratio? 

Simple.  Fast.   Effective.  Outcome is the same.  But without the barnacles slowing down the boat.  If we are in the position to alleviate debt with the wave of a wand, why not the debtors life?

 

It was common practice in Greek and Roman history until the 2nd century.  Rack up debt, can't pay, off to the slave pit to be sold to cover your debt.  Barring that the debtor didn't kill themselves to expunge their debt from their family by stopping the family linage, then their holdings would be auctioned and their family thrown into the street (unless they had other plans). 

There is a reason the religion of Judism hated the Romans, and it's wasn't because of religious intolerance, it was because most of them borrowed, didn't pay and were sold as slaves to pay their debts.  It ran completely inline though with Jewish law.

If there is a debt jubilee it should be also met with the death jubilee.

 

 

 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:22 | 1939715 eblair
eblair's picture

What about the first revolt of the plebs when they marched to Mount Sacer and threatened to start a new city without the patricians?  The patricians buckled because they needed plebs for their army and they cancelled all the debts.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:49 | 1939833 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

The bulk of the debts are tied directly to the effectiveness of the fiat money system in racking up debt, and they are government debts. Do you have an idea in mind to end that profligacy, and restore constitutional money? Insisting on every irresonsible party paying their debts, a moral stand, seems like a high price to pay if it means maintaining the fiat system. I don't care so much about some flake who shouldn't have gotten into debt. The way things are going, a lot of that gets socialized anyway when it;s ultimately not paid. He and all his cohorts are insignificant compared to the government debt monster.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:10 | 1939896 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

Huh?  What?

You equate a poorly-written and excruciatingly long article series with Christianity...how?  Then throw in another jab at another faith...how?

Interesting to note that you didn't slam the general concept of a God, or mention Islam, Shintoism, or pet rock worship.  Just the Jew/Christian slice.

Please clarify.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:17 | 1938756 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Not soon enough.  The solution remains simple.  Prosecute the fucking fraud and stop rewarding the irresponsible behavior.  Time to reward the savors and innovators who have been doing their jobs, paying their bills and not buying crap they can't afford or trying to live beyond their means.  A real recovery will only come from those savors making careful investment in real productive places that bring real value to the marketplace, not investment in some bullshit "financial instrument" of doom that continues to allow paper-pushing fucknuts to continue stealing wealth by making bad bets and getting bailed out.  

At this point my employees and I welcome the collapse and so should anyone who knows that their labor is of real value.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:12 | 1939061 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>At this point my employees and I welcome the collapse and so should anyone who knows that their labor is of real value.<<<

Do you got this sentence on auto-fill or somehting?...Geezus, give it a rest.

Yeah, we know your "employees" on your 10 ac. will all show us how it's done.

Frankly, you ain't got enough bullets, or like-minded neighbors etc...when OccupyFarm movement rolls your way.

You can throw gold coins at them...oh, wait...all the gold coin will be confiscated by then.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:33 | 1939127 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Does it bother you that we know the value of our labor?  We can say it as many times as we like.  Undoubtedly you are a paper-pushing fucknut, otherwise it wouldn't bother you so much.  My company does business around the world with over 200 productive acres of land being managed right now by many veterans.

What the fuck good will "occupy farm" do when there is no fertilizer or crops to begin with.  Get over yourself and your fear and then actually go do something productive, otherwise you might as well rename the "occupy farm" movement SOYLENT GREEN.

Thanks for the laugh troll.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:54 | 1939229 flattrader
flattrader's picture

>>>My company does business around the world with over 200 productive acres of land being managed right now by many veterans.<<<

Wow...200 ac....Worldwide...Truly a multinational conglmerate.

Man, I hope you are growing pot, because that ain't a lot of acreage where I'm from.

And they will OccupyFarm well in advance of the fertilizer running out...IF it gets THAT bad...that the fertilizer runs out...and you haven't figured out how to farm without it...the value of your labor won't mean squat anyways.

OccupyCompostHeap is my advice to you.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:04 | 1939272 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Pretty pathetic trolling.  There is a very real cost for creating captial out of thin air without adding any real value. The world will re-learn this the hard way.  If you consider yourself compost, well that is your business.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:52 | 1940054 trav7777
trav7777's picture

nah he's right...you're fucking crazy.

You do business all over the world, and you are welcoming a COLLAPSE?  Are you stupid?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:40 | 1939376 CPL
CPL's picture

Ummm, I'm in the 340 acre range and most of the city and suburban people won't be allowed to leave their situations.  Where you are is where you are going to stay.  Why do you think the governments of the world have militarized their police?  You aren't going anywhere.

 

As to the running of a farm, I'm not sure what you think happens is the after school special version of it but to have a profitable farm you have to be as self suffienct as possible.  IF you keep running out and buying things like seed and fertilizer you'll close your doors the same year unless your business startup plan takes it into consideration. 

I'm not even sure if I gave you a yard stick you could show me the size of an acre. With my 340 acres in rotation that's 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile.  (yes I know Canada is metric, the farming community is not)  Well it's a little bigger, than a half mile square but...anycase.

 

On 100 acres of just corn for seed, gross costs are around 300k to make 240k (ish) if you go outside to buy your seed and fertilizer.  If you don't your net is in the 140k range.  Just heritage corn seed with no genetic mutation btw.  Nothing else, chinese buy it all up and pay in PM's.

 

It's cash in hand first, then food.  Your idea is food first, cash later.  With that idea I can get nine women to have a baby in a month?  Don't think so.  If you think you are about to jump behind the wheel of a combine to start farming, feel free, just let us know where you need the ashes sent.

If you want to talk/learn about farming, the city of Brockville has courses at St Lawrence Seaway community college, it's a 3 1/2 year science degree with a secondary focus in business administration and tax law.  Might want to look into it, most of you will need it where you are getting assigned.  I teach the seminar on diary barn automation and robotics.  Where a single farmer can lower the farm hands to 3 or 4 per 200 acres instead of the usual 20.  If you are growing food, you need to pay at least ten guys per 200 acres.  Fruit property, you need around 300 per 200 acres because it's mostly manual labour that pays by the pound.  Work fast = get paid more, profit sharing basically, if you paid someone byt he hour...<shudder> no that wouldn't work unless it's the overseer.

 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:57 | 1939424 flattrader
flattrader's picture

I'm not sure who you are talking to here, me or LawofPhysics (who has nitrogen cycle issues) but,

>>>Ummm, I'm in the 340 acre range and most of the city and suburban people won't be allowed to leave their situations.  Where you are is where you are going to stay.  Why do you think the governments of the world have militarized their police?  You aren't going anywhere.<<<

I think you are optimistic about where everybody may be forced to "stay."

I've noticed this penchant for rural folk to believe they are somehow safe in an economic-societal collapse because they live out some ways from an urban area have guns, neighbors, gold etc...

Having lived in 3 different rural areas, I can tell you that nothing is further from the truth and merely wishful thinking.

 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:37 | 1939537 CPL
CPL's picture

Why do you think you get to keep your car?  If you are pretending the military doesn't get the first crack at energy resources and limit the distribution of it, you then are dreaming.

 

Okay here's an exercise for you and it will be exercise.  I'll use my own location.  Google maps tells me that it's a 19 hour walk to Ottawa.  Now load up a pack with water, food for a couple days for the walk there and then walk back.  Now do that with a pick up group of people that are more than likely strangers, armed to the teeth and attempting to find resources to bring back...maybe looking to stay?

Sure you won't run into the old Oregon trail scam?  You join up with a group only to be robbed blind, killed and thrown in a ditch.  Then the organizers go back, make up stories of restless natives and collect the next bunch.  If talking about a city like Ottawa, there are a million and half people here, most of them dumb as bricks with a half idea in their head of what country life is like.

You don't have to explain to anyone in a rural area about work, except the welfare bums of course.  it starts before dawn and ends when the animals are sleeping and you hope nothing happens during the night.

 

For a well trained team, I would say no problem.  For a pile of bumblefuck suburbanites that will still be wondering why the water isn't working and the gas station hasn't got any gas, ummmm...I'm leaning to a Jonestown outcome.

 

The laws and real life implimentation practice to control people from moving are already in place.  Take a greyhound lately?  TSA is there for you.  Cab?   DHS logs all trips, for those dumb enough to think the cab is private, it's not.  Photo, credit card information has been take, if a CC is used. 

 

No you won't get to keep your car.  You get to stay where you are.  Hope you like it until you are assigned somewhere else.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:15 | 1939693 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Funny that you think everyone is a bumblefuck suburbanite...and that distance is what will keep you safe.

There are a lot of ex-military, ex-police.  And a nineteen hour walk is not that far.

>>>Now load up a pack with water, food for a couple days for the walk there and then walk back.<<<

Many people have done that...with a 30 lb. pack.

A nineteen hour walk is about about 60 mi. at a slow to average pace of about 3 mi. per hour.

Again, not that far...that's your problem.

But, good luck with that.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:54 | 1940060 trav7777
trav7777's picture

HAHAHAHA...the rural areas in other collapsed states were the ones without power and any semblance of services.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:00 | 1939436 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

Thank you, CPL. I've been writing for years to various ZH cubicle dwellers who think they will bug out to the country and grow their own food that farming is really hard and takes specialized, experience-based knowledge and skills.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 15:46 | 1939575 VekTor
VekTor's picture

I'm not even sure if I gave you a yard stick you could show me the size of an acre. With my 340 acres in rotation that's 1/2 mile by 1/2 mile.  (yes I know Canada is metric, the farming community is not)  Well it's a little bigger, than a half mile square but...anycase.

Not big on math, are you? 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 16:05 | 1939641 CPL
CPL's picture

It's 640 square acres to a square mile.  4840 sq yards to sq acre.

 

And for this conversation I'm not breaking out a calculator.  If you want to know the leveraged decay on an x2, x3, no problem we'll run the numbers. EBITDA?  Sure.

 

This?  No. 

 

Some pencil neck geek talking trash on food production on farms there's no need to type longer than 30 seconds into the text entry field.

 

Now back to work bumblefuck.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:26 | 1939884 VekTor
VekTor's picture

A plot that's a half-mile on each side is 160 acres, and 340 acres is not "a little more" than 160.  It's more than double.  That's not a question of being off by a touch.  It's not a swag.  It's basic ignorance about how acreage is figured.  A plot that was a half-mile by one mile would have been close to the cited 340 acres that "you have in rotation".

And for the record, moron, it's not "square acres".  Acres are already a measure of area.  "Square acres" is as meaningless as "cubic gallons".

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 20:45 | 1940499 Hacked Economy
Hacked Economy's picture

+1 squarish cubical chuckles!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:21 | 1938770 Teamtc321
Teamtc321's picture

Is this hinting the use of more SDR's?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:41 | 1938905 Sophist Economicus
Sophist Economicus's picture

SDRs seem to have made a resurgence in internet chatter since Currency Wars hit the bookstores.   Now we have all the usual Internet regurgitators 'warning us' about them -- you know, Krieger, Two Dumb Minds, etc....

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:26 | 1939337 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Thanks.  THAT explains it.

Criminy freakin' sakes.

It does make for good clickbait on ZH though.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:26 | 1938814 HistorySquared
HistorySquared's picture

Let's substitute a system where people can lend unlimited amounts with no consequences for one where people can borrow unlimited amounts then walk away with no consequences. Ya, no moral hazards there. 

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:11 | 1938740 stop.snitching
stop.snitching's picture

On a different note...Italian 5Y/10Y now inverted again! Saweet. A huge intraday turnaround of about 9 percent!!!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938747 Normalcy Bias
Normalcy Bias's picture

Oh, Dear God! It's a five-part series...

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938749 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

Probably we dont need a government policy of systemic debt forgiveness.

Recognize existing losses and allow the bankruptcy system to do its cleansing of the system. Nobody gets freebies, neither debtor nor lender.

Debt forgiveness as a govetnment policy for specific sectors merely invites more moral hazard.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:30 | 1939118 DOT
DOT's picture

Word.

I kept mine, and now I am expected to gladly allow others to default with no consequence.

 

Only at the threat of violence is this possible.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:13 | 1938751 Fortunes Favor
Fortunes Favor's picture

Does this panic selling prove an investment thesis wrong? It does if you believe jumping off a cliff is right because everyone else is doing it.

http://rosenthalcapital.com/blog/2011/12/precious-metals-outlook-as-liquidity-crisis-eases-look-for-precious-metal-leadership-resurgence/

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:19 | 1938763 The Axe
The Axe's picture

FISHER  getting all crazy in Dallas...."social unrest coming to America!!! if we don't control the deficit!!!"  probably drinking some scotch for lunch!!!!

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 17:07 | 1939899 buyingsterling
buyingsterling's picture

ON AN IMPORTANT AND RELATED NOTE:

The 'Republican Jewish Coalition' has declined to invite Ron Paul to their nationally televised debate on Dec. 7th. Apparently, Paul is 'misguided' and'extreme'. More here: http://www.infowars.com/republican-jewish-coalition-bars-ron-paul-from-d...

 

You can email the RJC here: rjc@rjchq.org

And you can reach their ladies' group here: Women@RJCHQ.org

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:22 | 1938781 mess nonster
mess nonster's picture

Yeah.. didn't read it. Dude (author), you're 3500 years too late! Moses came up with the whole debt-forgiveess plan, like, before you did. Moses even claimed a higher source, but guess what good that did? The whole debt-forgivness trip was IGNORED, IGNORED! Only once in the history of mankind was the plan enacted. (By good ol' Hezikiah, Ron Paul's previous incarnation) Whoop te do for that idea... put it in the round file, along with Tesla and Ron Paul, and all other hope for humanity.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:28 | 1938825 docj
docj's picture

And once again, all we need for this "plan" to work is the repealing of all basic human instancts and milennia of in-bred human nature. Plus some basic re-working of fundamental mathematical principles and Devine intervention.

Aside from that though, it's rock-solid.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:33 | 1938844 steve from virginia
steve from virginia's picture

 

Everyone wants 'cleansing', everyone wants the easy solution that avoids them and hits someone else, preferrably in China or France. Everyone is playing the same 'hot potato' game.

Can't forgive the debt because industrial enterprises are inherently non-productive. Business profits are borrowed: even if all debts could be made to disappear tomorrow by magic, new debt in amounts equal to the old would have to be taken on the following day, so as to allow the various businesses to function.

Keep in mind also:

 - Wealth equals debt (except for the following),

 - At some point the costs of managing any surplus (wealth) become greater than the surplus itself (this is Steve's First Law): wealth is constrained by physical and relational limits, debt can expand to the point of absurdity.

At the point of absurdity the loss of value of a fraction of the debt wipes out all of the wealth. This is manifest by the inability to let any finance institution fail, the costs associated with one large finance company would wipe out all the wealth.

There is no magic bullet to deal with our indebtedness, sorry. What is needed is careful deleveraging and reduction in our arbtirary industrial surpluses (wealth). The large part of this is resource conservation.

We either conserve or conservation is going to be shoved up our asses by events out of our control ... and time is running out.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:34 | 1939137 DOT
DOT's picture

I want a claw back. Make that a**h***, Jack Walsh, pay it back.

....and all the rest.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:40 | 1938901 El Viejo
El Viejo's picture

Wasn't there a Ceasar in the distant past that was murdered by creditors shortly after proposing a "middle road" path??

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:42 | 1938912 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

No mention of the billions worldwide whose pensions and super-annuities are keyed to the debt he wants to eliminate. No debt, no bonds, no retirement.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:52 | 1938959 ElvisDog
ElvisDog's picture

I've been critical of this series so far, but his suggestions for fixing housing, credit card, and student loan debt have some merit, in particular the idea of removing federal guarentees of student loans.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:56 | 1938981 Muenkey
Muenkey's picture

Hey wait...let me first go and buy the yacht, mansion and Rolls Royce, then you can have your jubilee. What total, utter nonsense.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 12:58 | 1938986 Elmer Fudd
Elmer Fudd's picture

The debt is going to be inflated away. Period.  And they dont care about YOUR debt, that needs to be paid off. Let's get off the magical fairy tale endings, its kind of silly and getting old.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:30 | 1939354 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Yep, inflated or hyper-inflated away as it will likely get out of control...then deflationary collapse.

Let's get on with it.

I would like it to be winding down by the time my kid is an old man and my grandkids stand a shot on the upside of the delfationary collapse part.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:31 | 1939356 flattrader
flattrader's picture

Yep, inflated or hyper-inflated away...as it will likely get out of control...then deflationary collapse.

Let's get on with it.

I would like it to be winding down by the time my kid is an very old man and my grandkids stand a shot on the upside of the deflationary collapse part.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:15 | 1939069 bankruptcylawyer
bankruptcylawyer's picture

ive read all 4 parts,

in addition to bruce krasting and cd, this series has been one of the best on zh. not just bitching about problems and predicaments ---- this offers solutions.

i for one would offer that a full wholistic reform of bankruptcy and recievership and foreclosure and debtor creditor default laws----

a massive simplification and streamlining of the law--- and the BUREACRCY/court/advocacy system is necessay.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:35 | 1939141 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

You got one thing right.  Start by prosecuting the the fucking fraud.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:45 | 1939191 DOT
DOT's picture

".....a massive simplification and streamlining of the law--- and the BUREACRCY/court/advocacy system is necessay."

 

Which means it will never happen.

Simplicity and Bureaucracy are opposing forces.

btw, all lawyers should use spell check.....just sayin'

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 13:44 | 1939136 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

As usual, no one touches Child Support, the biggest con of all. While everyone should support your children, no one should be REQUIRED to do it as the Government dictates. This is tryanny, not freedom. Here is how it works:

1) The Government invents a "debt or obligation" where none exists. This alone violates your God-given human rights as Father and head of the Family and is evil. God choose you to raise, support, and protect your family not the Government of Men.

2) The Government will then hold you in Contempt of Court if you refuse to pay the debt that they created. Yet, there are ways around this that are perfectly legal. One is have your child live with you. Refuse any child support, and raise the child yourself. If Mom is greedy and refuses to allow your children to live with you - then you need to - Two, offer to use the money for private school or college instead of sending an alimony check. Three, if it gets rough, put the money in an escrow account until she agrees. Don't tell anyone where the account is, unless you want it seized.  Four, stick to your guns. If you can survive 30 days in jail (about the max they will do - since you aren't refusing ); you will win.  Remember, this money is for the child, not for Mom's hair, nails, and a new car. The more the court and Mom scream at you, the more you can feel satisfied that you are correct. Tell the truth, and do not lie. Let them lie, because they will. That's how you can tell you are right and they are wrong. This is a system of pure evil and must be changed.

3) State/Local Governments collect 55% of the "debt" back to itself in the form of processing fees and a 50% (change to 30% may have happened, don't know)  reimbursement/well-done from the Federal Government. This is a self-funding system to continue the scam. If you pay Child Support, avoid paying through the system because you are indeed funding this evil directly. Pay to the Mother instead and keep written receipts. Show the receipts when you need to avoid punishment. Do not listen to them, they you are REQUIRED to pay to them. You aren't, this is false. Pay to Mom and get a receipt as I said.  The money is for the child, not for THEM.  The courts can do nothing as long as you pay. No one is going to punish you because they cannot collect their 55%.

4) Like Student Loans, Child Support cannot be discharged in Bankruptcy. This is a classic definition of debt slavery where a debt cannot be discharged, ever. It must be paid. However, Mom can agree to forgive the child support in return for other concessions and the Government can't stop her. Figure out what she wants/needs and do a deal.  Keep control and you save stress and legal fees.

5) You will lose in court. The breadwinner (Male or Female - see Britney Spears) always loses. The Breadwinner is always harshly critized and lied about while other Party is praised.  This is the excuse to increase Child Support awards and force you to pay attorney fees to the other side. Facts and truth don't matter very much. What matters is who has the money that they can steal. That is the key to the system and shows its bias. So avoid the court, they are corrupt. 

Above all else, this is your children and your family. You must protect them from evil.  Ask God for help, and he will. He's on your side on this issue.

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:27 | 1939342 TeresaE
TeresaE's picture

JLee,

Wow, hang out in the hood much?

Cause the whole "I'm not paying because mom lives in the house too" is really, really, popular there.  Goes well with the whole "baby-daddy" thing and multiple kids that you can't afford.

If you don't want to support YOUR children, it is simple, don't have sex.  Or, better yet, *snip* *snip*

Sorry buddy, while I agree that the state & courts are evil and their methods insane, to allow men to walk away isn't going to SOLVE anything.

Except to create MORE women and their broods on the public tit.

I didn't have your orgasm, so why in the hell should I be forced to support your kid?

Fri, 12/02/2011 - 14:31 | 1939355 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

As I said above, you can always tell who's right and who's wrong by the lying.  Why are you lying about what I said TeresaE?

 

 

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