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Guest Post: The Way Out Of Our Economic Mess

Tyler Durden's picture


By Terry Coxon, Casey Research


"A rock and a hard place" is a long-running theme of Casey Research publications. It refers to the dilemma the US government has wandered into with its continued policy of rescue inflation. The "rock" is what will happen if the Fed pauses for long in printing still more money – the collapse of an economy burdened by an accumulation of mistakes that rescue inflation has been keeping at bay. The "hard place" is the disruptive price inflation that becomes more likely (and likely more severe) with every new dollar the Fed prints to keep the effects of those mistakes suppressed.

When the dollar was cut loose from the gold standard in 1971, the Federal Reserve was freed to create as much new money as it saw fit, whenever it saw fit. Enabled, it turned with enthusiasm to doing what central bankers imagine they are supposed to do – eliminate downturns in the economy. The Fed fancied itself as being on the answering end of a 911 system: whenever the financial markets signaled distress, whenever the economy came down with the flutters, the Federal Reserve would dispatch a van, an ambulance, a fire engine or even an assault vehicle, whatever seemed right but in every case full of cash.

To most people, rescue inflation was entirely agreeable. It made their world more comfortable and seemed to make it safer. Comfortable, yes. Safer, no. The pernicious but entirely welcome effect of rescue inflation was to cover up mistakes and keep them going. It allowed people – especially people handling other people's money – to make progressively bigger mistakes. Lending on implausible mortgages and buying securities tied to those mortgages are the most recent examples, follies that required decades of training.

Rescue inflation allowed everyone to get away with everything. The assurance that a high-speed vehicle with flashing lights on top would always arrive in time let individuals pay for houses with a little cash and a big mortgage. It let corporate managers rely on borrowing heavily, rather than selling stock, to raise capital. It let investors cheerfully accumulate junk bonds. And it let banks hire and set loose bright young minds to design financial gizmos with astounding leverage guaranteed to deliver excellently profitable results for so long as the economy continued on its excellent and guaranteed way. All of those hang-glider stunts seemed safe because if at any point the prices of the assets underlying anyone’s commitment failed to rise... a Federal Reserve rescue inflation vehicle would surely dash to the scene. That’s what FedVans are for.

And rescue inflation let the politicians dodge the consequences of their own thoughtlessness. The economic drag of the tax rules the politicians found convenient to enact and the effects that deficit spending has on economic growth and on living standards were obscured by the ready supply of that all-purpose balm and lubricant, new money.

But problems that are hidden don't go away; they accumulate; and they grow. Answering its most recent 911 call (the one that rang in 2008), the Fed dispatched an entire fleet of trucks stuffed with cash. It increased the money supply by 40%, yet today the economy is barely staggering forward. At this point, creating more cash might buy some time, but it can't buy a solution.

The problem, unless you think there isn’t one, seems impossible to solve. But rather than dismissing the possibility of a way out, it would be more circumspect to consider how the economy might in fact navigate between the rock and the hard place. That won't happen simply because we've found a way for it to happen. The White House hasn’t called me in a long time. But if we understand what it would take to slip past the rock and the hard place, we can judge how likely such a passage is.

The economy doesn't need anyone to fix it. It's all that fixing for the last 40 years that is the problem. Unmolested, the economy will right itself. The only thing needed is for the Great Molester, the government, to surrender to a serious regimen of behavior modification and let the economy operate without suffocating interference. Then it would be able to shed its problems – not painlessly but quickly and with a minimum of pain. Here's the protocol.

Bring out your dead. Even after catching the trillions in bailout money thrown at them, some financial institutions remain under water – closer to the surface than before but still snorkeling. Let them go. Release them from their zombie state. Bless them with the peace of zero assistance and the promise of unbeing. Paying the dead to mimic the living casts a blight on all the banks that are competently managed, and it leaves trillions of dollars of capital to be allocated by hired hands who've shown by their performance that their talents call them to some other line of work.

And give up on mouth-to-mouth for the biggest corpse of all. Stop trying to prop up housing prices by financing the banking system's huge inventory of foreclosed property and by funding programs to slow the foreclosure rate. The housing market won’t recover its health until prices reach a market-clearing level.

Stop the acknowledged deficits now. That means cutting federal spending drastically. There's already unanimous lip service for doing so, but even if there were a genuine resolve to do it, there are an infinite number of ways to go about it. A clean starting point would be to revert to the last Clinton budget, which would almost certainly require getting by on one war at a time. Stopping the deficits is essential to allowing the economy to heal itself because it slows the wasting of resources and because it eliminates the fear of higher tax rates, which is a fear that retards business investment.

Make tax rules a little less stupid. The two most mischievous features of the Internal Revenue Code are the double-taxation of corporate profits and the deduction for home mortgage interest. The former is a powerful and dangerous invitation for high debt-to-equity ratios; make dividends tax-deductible for the paying company, and the problem goes away. The deductibility of mortgage interest has operated as an amplifier for everything the government does to encourage overinvestment in housing. Yes, eliminating the mortgage deduction will be another blow to the housing market, but since we're committed to bringing out the dead, let’s think about cremating the remains.

Stabilize tax rules. High tax rates are bad enough for the economy. Not knowing what next year's tax rates are going to be is much worse. It paralyzes business decisions. Make the current rates "permanent" in the sense that it would take further legislation to change them.

Reduce the legal minimum wage to zero. Minimum wage laws are convenient for labor unions whose members are somewhat skilled, but they toss the unskilled into the economic dumpster. A minimum wage law effectively prohibits the unskilled and inexperienced from working by pricing them out of the market. It’s an unemployment guarantee program for millions of the economically weakest people in the country. I’d miss the minimum wage, because there is nothing that shouts louder that government uses the poor as human shields to protect the state. But to let the economy recover, let it go.

Destrangulate. Repeal the Sarbanes-Oxley law and its weird spawn, Dodd-Frank. Repeal Obamacare. Allow individual states to license drugs without waiting on the FDA. End all prohibitions on insider trading. Charge banks for FDIC insurance at rates tied to a balance sheet formula – and then free them to make their own lending decisions. (You might like even more deregulation than that, but we're not building utopia, we're only trying to avoid camping in dystopia.)

Euthanasia for Social Security and Medicare. Raise the eligibility age by one month every year. The unfunded net liabilities for those programs (variously estimated at $60 trillion to $80 trillion) will evaporate, and everyone who has been counting on impossible promises being kept will have plenty of time to come to terms with reality.

That would do it, and that or something similar is what it would take. The economy might need a year or so for the dust to settle. A certain number of mental breakdowns would be provoked by the trashing of heart-felt assumptions, but for the other 99.9999999% of us, the Greater Depression would be canceled.

It's not politically impossible. Everyone, politician and politician-afflicted alike, is capable of a 180-degree course change when fear and pain become great enough. It's not impossible at all. And unicorns aren’t impossible. Typically, they get started when a pony is fighting a cowlick.

At the just-concluded Casey/Sprott Summit When Money Dies, the all-star faculty unanimously agreed that the US economy is in dire straits… and will be for a while. But there are ways to protect your assets and profit from this crisis. Listen to John Hathaway, Mike Maloney, Richard Hanley, Doug Casey, Chris Martenson, and many more expert speakers on more than 20 hours of audio recordings – incl. their best stock picks and hands-on investment advice. Learn more.


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Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:13 | 1748295 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture




"Between a rock and a hard place"

Yep, that's us; we're the "Wile E. Coyote" economy...


Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:16 | 1748323 living on the edge
living on the edge's picture

"Between a rock and a hard place"

A better analogy is picture your testicles between two rocks, and the rocks are forcefully coming together.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:45 | 1748385 mfoste1
mfoste1's picture

trick question, there is no solution....let markets and economies regress back to means, start over. If not for us, for our children and their children.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 04:08 | 1748864 Joshua Falken
Joshua Falken's picture

There is a solution - get fiecally nationalistic - Do an Iceland - have a national referendum as to whether you continue pay off interest to your foreign creditors on debt so huge it will never be paid back or default , declare bankruptcy and press reset

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 05:02 | 1748884 Michael
Michael's picture

The ominous tone of CNBC World this evening from guest after guest spelling it out in great detail, the complete and total economic collapse of world economies, I thought they were a televised version of Zero Hedge almost.

Perhaps they're just trying to cover their asses not to look so stupid up against the likes of the ZH crowd.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:37 | 1749372 r101958
r101958's picture

Maybe I missed it but I don't think he mentions marking assets to market price.....instead of the current book fudging mark to fantasy that the TBTF's use. That alone would be a huge first step.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:22 | 1748726 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

i'd rather picture your testicles in that situation. :o )

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:30 | 1748358 Dick Fitz
Dick Fitz's picture

Look at what Bob Wenzel at is saying- he's the only "bull" out there right now, because he clearly sees the effect of the monetary inflation.

Have you wondered why the numbers have been "better than expected" in some areas by the Keynesian shills? Why the market seems to be defying gravity, despite the babdbadBAD news from EU, China, etc.? Why real estate is rising (nominally) in some regions?

The money the FED has been pumping for the last few years is finally making its way into the US (and EURO) markets, and although it will be a small (tiny) boom, the next few months of data will show a (marginal) recovery. The Wall St shills will use it as evidence that "our government/FED is working!" while the reality is that it is merely the result of new money entering the system. Look at the real estate/rental prices in SanFran, or the hiring data in NoCal. Look at the "mild" recovery in bigbiz numbers.

The Bernank has printed so much fucking money, and some of it is finally leaking into the "real world" and inflation is going to heat up HARD! The EUCB is printing hard now too. The Chinese CB has been doing it for a decade...and it's hitting them now.

The crash is coming. It's like a junkie that found a stash of Oxy in his mom's medicine cabinet, and has shared them with his friends. They've all put off the withdrawal for a few days, but once those last pills are snorted then the whole group is going to crash HARD.

The next few months, maybe even into the spring, are going to be sweeeeeeeeeeetttttttt for the .01% and their dupes in the stock market. The S&P might even bounce 30% or so, based on hopium.

But once it crashes, and one of their buddies (China, EU, Japan?) crashes, then it's all over for the rest.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 06:58 | 1748947 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

I follow EPJ and so am familiar with the money supply/boomlet position. I'm not really bought into it though. Seems to me that all depends on what is actually done with the excess $$ and what role inflation plays. With so much uncertainty and fear in the equation it just seems like quite the stretch to call any real bubble blowing. Time will tell though.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 10:53 | 1749638 Iggy
Iggy's picture

The bubble is already blown--United States Bonds

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:18 | 1748482 prophet
prophet's picture

Things are getting so bad don't be surprised if they decide to close the banks on Monday.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 03:44 | 1748797 Taku
Taku's picture

"Unlimited cash for banks"

Hmmm...who said this on Bloomberg?

I guess the more the financials get their ratings cut, the more free cash they get?

PMs are going to the moon, then.

Printing races are ready, set...

Speaking of ratings, below junk should be a 'totally crap' category (which most fall in to).

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:19 | 1748722 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

walkin' on air

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:13 | 1748303 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

sure make Social Security further and further away, while they are required to pay thru higher taxes annd less service the public employees, who also receive their pensions and defined benefits at much earlier ages and most of it is PAID by the private sector......

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:12 | 1748306 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

so, terry, basically you want to really institute austerity here in america...

good luck....

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:24 | 1748509 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Not to step out of line, sir, but did you not train/educate to send men into the core of human phobia? When any soldier under your command asked you point blank, "Will I live to see my little girl?" what did you say? There is only one response.

The simple truth is that there is going to be a price paid. Not everyone is going to go home. With training, and a little luck, we might get to see the other side, but I don't think everyone is going home the same. Stop expecting anything other than the hell that is coming.

I mean these words in terms of earning power, standard of living, and consumption.

I hate to sound like an ass, but I read a lot of history these days. I don't think I know what is coming, but I have tried to understand it. I don't think I am prepared, but I am steadily adjusting to compensate (food/lifestyle/spending/etc). I may not "go home" and I may not "be the same", but I can assure you, sir, I will give them fucking hell before I get packed in a bag.

So spare me the austerity cry baby shit.



Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:43 | 1748545 dlmaniac
dlmaniac's picture

Austerity = Darwinism at work. If you overspend in the past you have to underspend from now on to balance it out. Austerity therefore will be in full swing like it or not.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:06 | 1748569 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

yes, good cooter, i did train men for war, and i was very good at it,i had very good teachers, who learned in thecrucible of vietnam....

i served the masters of commerce....till i knew better...

my observation had nothing to do with my personal feelings...just with what i see in the streets of the hasnt even gotten bad yet, austerity...and there already protesting...

greece is a good example of austerity, only, the greeks do not have nearly the amount of weapons americans have...yeah, something bad comes this way...

no crying here cooter, just observations...

i try not to make battles here personal, for this just so damn educational, the hedge. as a wise ZH'er told once, this is not face book....

p.s. sedley butler was right....

thank you, more food for thought...

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:33 | 1748634 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Ah, I got'cha sir. My gift and I suppose my curse, is I don't read things like regular folks. I tend to miss some of the obvious and tend to catch some of the not so obvious. Pays my rent real good, so I can't complain. Doesn't make me lots of friends though.

I kind of feel that folks know its coming, but the most of the comfortable have their head up their ass. The middle class and the not-really upper class are in for a rude awakening me thinks. They don't have the mental plumbing to handle what is coming down the pipe. I shudder to think what urban settings will be like in the not-so-distant future. I bailed as fast as I could; moved to Alaska in my car with nothing else! Best damn thing I ever did my whole life.

I think rural America is going to hang in there just fine. I feel sorry for domestic forces (criminal or otherwise) that show up in armed counties trying to project influence. Small towns are going to be a real rough ride for any outsiders.

I really feel this is what "fast and furious" was all about. The big miscalculation though is that fire power is less than experience/training. Urban will be hellish if things go bad, but rural areas are going to be the opposite. That said, I wouldn't live near a border state for anything.

Not to be pedantic, but its Smedley Butler. Buy his book and read it. Short, sweet, and spot on. We are a modern day colonial power, old story.

Toss this in your reading pile. One of the best PDFs I got off ZH:

I found this really good insight (even if almost 100 years old) regarding how wall street works:

NOTE: Save both PDFs now, they don't last long on the web.

Lastly, head over to KWN and pull down all the Jim Rickards interviews (~40 something of them in total). One of the best free monetary policy educations you can get for free. JR calls it like it is, has great insights, and is a hell of a communicator. I got my head screwed on straight and I learn stuff from him on a regular basis.

Lastly, I recommend you high tail your ass to Alaska. Biggest state in the union. Smallest population. Heaven if you like the outdoors. Stick to the SouthEast, the weather is nice. I carry on about it here at my blog.

**carries on**




Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:58 | 1748693 X.inf.capt
X.inf.capt's picture

cooter, i would love to go alaska, but my obligation here, plus other factors, will keep me here in the city. yeah, i know, not the best choice....

i am already livin' the SHTF senario, and have contigencies in place, believe it or not, im probably going to do alright...

just food for thought, cooter, NORTHCOM is fully up and running, even has combat units under its operational control, namely the  1st brigade,3rd infantry division. i would advise you to look up the above units, espeasally equipment. field artillery, tanks, bradleys...all to help for civil unrest in america. this is going to be interesting....

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:29 | 1748736 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I made a sort-of mistake when I signed up army back in '92. I should have gone O instead of E. My brother retired O from the USMC and my sister went to Kings Point. I understand now that autism runs in my family. I was an odd duck growing up and I didn't have a clue about how anything worked. I joined based on an opinon of a teacher I had and liked (in addition to my passion for constituional freedoms/rights). 

In hind sight I should have done full time instead of reserve. I honestly believe if I had pulled the right gig in the Navy or the AF, I would have been career and of far greater value to our nation. I just fucked up picking my MOS and commitment. Young and stupid, not much more to it.

Civvy, I ended up a software engineer and I am really damn good at what I do. I can't handle stupid. I go off on bosses/clients/whatever when they get full-retard. I found my groove. I understand now how I fit in and what I can offer/do, just getting older I guess.

Crazy as it sounds, I looked at re-upping here in AK at close to 40 years old. I just don't have the opportunities I need to make a difference. I got sucked in via a Navy InfoWarfare officer gig, but it turns out its based in Anchorage (1k miles away). There is an ANG gig in town, but its MP type stuff. I am too old to fold deck chairs. If I had a good O spot up here ANG that let me offer what I got to offer, I would take it in a heart beat. But I am closing in on 40 and I only got to offer what I got to offer.

Just be safe brother. It is all about neighbors; take care of each other. You know the drill better than I.

Drop me a line at my moniker at gee mail dot com some time if you make it up this way. I am in state next Feb. I hope to start hiking to fish once it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg. My Zanotti is on back order for many months, so hunting is on hold for a bit til I can work things out with my old man as far as getting my guns up here.



Fri, 10/07/2011 - 06:34 | 1748935 Surly Bear
Surly Bear's picture

Well said, sir. 

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 02:03 | 1748772 TheMerryPrankster
TheMerryPrankster's picture

Appreciate the links. Alaska is one possibility. I like the idea of being dispersed all over the u.s.

Redundant systems, if everybody is in one place - that place just became a target. Spread out and survive.


Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:22 | 1748727 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

"I may not "go home" and I may not "be the same", but I can assure you, sir, I will give them fucking hell before I get packed in a bag."

Well spoken, and I believe said with sincerity.  Sounds like you have the right idea. I too fear what will come, especially since I am young and have a hard time picturing the lost decades that may be ahead of me.  I know my generation will have to sort out this mess and pay dearly for the losses.  At the same time, I am glad I am young, as I have little to lose.  

" I don't think I know what is coming, but I have tried to understand it. I don't think I am prepared, but I am steadily adjusting to compensate (food/lifestyle/spending/etc). "

I don't think anyone ever really feels prepared.  But just knowing what is ahead is priceless, IMO.  I too am realizing how little I need, and that has been a blessing.  I have re-discovered the joy of books and spent two hours today watching a rainstorm move across the horizon.  Its the little things.  Not all of the "austerity" has to be a bad thing.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 08:20 | 1749058 kinganuthin
kinganuthin's picture

"At the same time, I am glad I am young, as I have little to lose"
Allow me to correct this statment: 
"I am glad I am young, as I have no idea what and how much I could lose."

Stay safe, stay strong.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:13 | 1748308 Dr. Richard Head
Dr. Richard Head's picture

Make tax rules less stupid by not taking one's property in the first place.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:13 | 1748310 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Even simpler:

1)  Liberty

2)  Transparency

3)  .gov keeps hands off!  No bailouts, no welfare, no intrusion.

Then the USA comes roaring back!

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:17 | 1748325 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



You forgot:

4) Shoot unemployed, starving, rioting looters...


Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:52 | 1748407 johnconnor
johnconnor's picture

5) Kill sick, obese and anyone over 70... that will surely save a lot in medicare and social security

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 02:31 | 1748792 the tower
the tower's picture

And don't forget about the rest of us - not shot because we are too old, sick or fat - living our lives in cut-throat competition (with each other and with asia) just so we can consume our way out of the crisis, and to keep capitalism going forever!!!

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 11:06 | 1749691 tsx500
tsx500's picture

...and speaking of liberty and .gov hands off :        RON PAUL 2012 !

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:29 | 1748319 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

most ppl criticize the fiscal & monetary stimulus of 08-09, without addressing the mechanism used for the distribution of capital.   Namely wallstreet, and too big to fail banks.


The big banks, a hydra of retail & investment banking, are notorious for obscuring, or overlooking risk for short term quick profits from financial engineering, instead of investing in low risk, productive enterprises.  So capital has been misalllocated to the non real, speculative parts of the economy, while the real economy is starving for fresh capital.  This can in part explain the failure of the stimulus programs to create jobs, and/or the same level of output, prior to the financial collapse.


So any more stimulus using a broken mechanism, like the current financial structures, processes, and incentive schemes, in the banking system, will lead to further misallocation. And once again tax payers will need to bail out the banks.


Keep in mind that FDR nationalized the banks, cleansing them of their financial inefficiencies, and myopia for quick risky returns, before applying his stimulus programs.  So the mechanism woould once again distribute capital to the productive parts of US economy.


Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:34 | 1748365 bigmikeO
bigmikeO's picture

That's right, dipshit - take the power from the bankers and give it to the government. Problem fixed. You're a fucking idiot.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:49 | 1748373 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

oh yeah, and the better solution is to let the investment side of banks continue to pour capital into speculative plays so they can cash out from big bonuses and stock options, instead of having the retail side loan out capital to small, productive businesses, but having lower ROI.


yeah that's a brilliant  idea.   Ignore the productive part of the economy.  How are you going to get a higher national income, if the US becomes less productive over time?  Higher national income correlates with higher wages for the median worker.


your solution is to watch the world burn, while licking yoru bar of gold, like it was a petitle 100lb street hooker.


I still believe in government, becuase I've studied history, and know governments can function to life everyone up.


governments can function, if everyone wasn't so polarized by their ideologies, thereby limiting policy options.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:56 | 1748410 akak
akak's picture

Oh, of course governments can function --- and it's what they do when they function that is precisely the problem.

Government is nothing but a disease masquerading as its own cure.

Throw off your self-imposed mental shackles and see the abomination of government (i.e., institutionalized coercion) for what it really is: slavery to sociopaths.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:58 | 1748423 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

you do know what happens when you lose the leviathon, that is government, or nation states, don't you?


societies tend to degenerate into tribalism.  

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:07 | 1748455 akak
akak's picture

Or they "degenerate" into liberty, as the early USA did --- for a while.  Too short a while.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:21 | 1748486 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

oh--early US liberty--the great libertarian period when women were considered property, yall had slaves, and murderously stealing land from the Natives, and Mexican, was the norm  That US liberty?  The liberty where, if you were male and white, it made right. 


yes.. let's bring that version of liberty back.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:24 | 1748501 akak
akak's picture

I see that your historical ignorance and crippled logic is on par with your intellectual bankruptcy.

It is nothing but a strawman argument, and a logical absurdity, to suggest that because one desires to live in society significantly more free than that of today's, as the early USA certainly was, that one therefore desires to turn back the clock and recreate that exact society down to the last jot and tittle. We need to move forward to liberty --- not backward to the past, however freer it may have been.

Please go back to Logic 101.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:35 | 1748521 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

errr.. did you not read the part about woman being treated as property and slavery?  Those conditions existed in the early US.  If you were male, and white you had freedoms.  Everyone else did not.  And you didn't have a Christian name, oh lord help you.


So if you're going to appeal to the idllyic early US, I wanted to remind you of the material conditions of other parts of US society, then.


ok let's move forward.. let me ask you this hypothetical moral question:


let's assume for a minute advance human cloning is possible.  This is the future afterall.  Should you be able to human clone yourself, and use (its) body parts to regenerate your own, due to old age, or the accidents of life, but killing, or maiming it, in the process?

subtext: if a human organism. through cloning, becomes property, can you use it  for your own purpose?  Or is liberty innate to the human condition, so that would be taboo, or 'illegal'.  It seems to me that there will be an eventual conflict between property, and liberty, once advance human cloning comes to be.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:39 | 1748531 akak
akak's picture

I refuse to allow you to divert the topic of discussion.

I said that the early USA was demonstrably, even vastly, freer than our society today --- and if you were honest, or had an inkling of a clue about American history, you would have to agree.  Notice that I did NOT say that it was perfect, or that some members of that society were treated abominably, because they were.  But for the overwhelming majority of citizens, it was almost an anarchy (i.e., without government, i.e., without institutionalized coercion) than the near-total police state into which we are degenerating today.

BTW, your human cloning question is irrelevant to the discussion --- whether produced by natural birth or cloning, a human is a human is a human, so such a person would have every right that any other human has.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:50 | 1748549 DormRoom
DormRoom's picture

yes, but in that hypothetical, and likely future world, the human(oid) is property, and as a libertarian, shouldn't you support property rights? Thus the owner can do what s(he) pleases.


And what of life or death events?  Like if the owner need the clone's heart to live, or else the owner dies (yes this question is loaded).


So in the case of clone v. owner, you would side with the clone?


There's no right or wrong answer.  I was interested in your logic.  And I do forsee a time in the near future when  a possible contradiction between liberty, and property arises, and will need to be addressed.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:51 | 1748559 akak
akak's picture

The "contradiction" is entirely within your own mind --- I fail to see it whatsoever.

A clone would no more be "property" than any other baby would be; the method of conception is irrelevant to the status of the individual as a human. 

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:08 | 1748578 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Not to be the creepy, pedantic, autistic ZH freak-a-zoid, but I found your profile/history quite interesting. I expected a troll profile, but you are around (officially) about as long as I am.

So, I felt I needed to look closer, maybe you are real, and maybe I am missing your point. I am here to learn and I really like a good contrary opinion. So, I ripped through your last 20 posts or so, via your profile, and I must say its ... curious. Very curious.

My history is very consistent, for those so inclined. However, you seem to waffle from semi-cognizant posts to out-there-bat-shit-crazy, depending on the thread. There were a few posts were your position was reduced to "..." and nothing more.

I think you have more than one face. Maybe, a worker bee face to earn some street cred, then you suck up an 8 ball and go nutso like tonight.

What say ye?



Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:45 | 1748668 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

We always supposed that Johnny Bravo (MasterBates), the notorious gold-hating troll, was more than one person.  Posts were too close together and overlapping for one person to have actually done the writing and posting.   Who can say?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 02:02 | 1748766 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

dr, have you seen the film 'Never Let Me Go'? it totally plays around with this subject

it's kinda great ;- )

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:23 | 1748613 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

That's a stupid question, since organs can be cloned on organ-shaped biodegradable scaffolds. You don't need to clone a whole human just to produce a kidney; that would be unbelievably expensive, pointless, and wasteful.

Why is it that in any discussion of liberty, someone chimes in and compares freedom to converting humans into expendable meat sacks?

Freedom = slavery, right?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 03:06 | 1748823 Caggge
Caggge's picture

Keep the wealth and power amongst the many. The middle class. I think this is what the forefathers intended. TBTF will fail every time. Humans can't handle that type of responsibility. Just look at how our elections and political system operates. We elect our representatives to represent us th majority, yet they represent the few instead of the many. Jefferson told us not to make this mistake. Rothchild said...if you make this mistake...I can defeat any standing army. What will be coming is what we deserve.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:34 | 1749359 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Small thinkers like Dem's who need to be told what to do descend into tribalism and howling mobs.  People like me build communities, alliances and systems to take care of people like you.  Once taken care of you slither your way into power because we are too damn busy to care then real .gov takes hold and the cycle begins anew..

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:50 | 1748759 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

unfortunately, dr, governments, like 100 lb petite street hookers, get ugly, worn out and irreparable.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:16 | 1748320 SamuelMaverick
SamuelMaverick's picture

Casey Research rocks.  Too bad that there is almost zero chance that any of these suggestions will ever be implemented...

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:16 | 1748321 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

big legislative agenda from the casey/sprott "summit"

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:19 | 1748332 Shizzmoney
Shizzmoney's picture

"Let go of the minimum wage"


Maybe you don't know of the fact that all organisms, espeically mammals like us, are inheritedly selfish.


Would you do your research for $2.23 an hour, 40 hours a week?


The minimum wage law does nothing ot solve the problem, either for or against, because we all know the cat is out of the bag, now: Inflation has made the USD worth shit.  The only thread it is hanging by is tghe fact it is the world's reserve currency, which is grossly over-leveraged.

That why I hate hearing those say suggesting austerity is the way out of this.  It isn't.  YOu are ignoring the SIMPLEST of math:  The inflation is outpacing the growth of the country.  That is an unsustainable model for ANY ideology.   

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:35 | 1748526 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Hey dumbass, did it ever occur to you if I had a business and offered $1/hr for a clerk position it would never fill? My business would starve because I didn't offer enough money. So, doesn't it follow I pay what the market will accept?

Did it also occur to you I might create jobs at below minimum wage and, if available, folks might take them? If so, that is someone sitting unemployed that suddenly has a chance to make something. But maybe the numbers don't work at the current minimum wage level, so I stomach the loss in business and drive on.

Get it yet?

You see, the position is worth what its worth. Minimum wages are price controls. Price controls never work. Rome tried it. Didn't work. Nixon tried it. Didn't work.

The real lesson is ...  if you don't like making shit money doing shit work then get some skills that are worth more.

And before you give me some hard luck BS story, I cut firewood to heat my home growing up in a rural setting. I volenteered for school money and worked my way through school. So, suck it (for less than minimum wage).



Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:27 | 1748618 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

Lol. No more trees for firewood these days. They cut them all down to build McMansions.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:52 | 1748681 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

No shortage of trees up here in Alaska. My town has about 30k people. I think its a hundred miles or such before the next community. No roads, so take a boat or a plane. Pretty ride, nothing but nature the whole way.

Oh, yeah, you meant in the really broad global sense of deforestation. Or something.

Just to point out the obvious, trees capture SOLAR energy, store it chemically, which is why you can burn wood for heat. Coal? Same thing, just a few million years in between. Oil? Same thing. Hydro-electric power? Same thing.

(If you can't figure it out - rain comes from the sun heating water sources - evaporating the water which overcomes gravity - vapors that later cool/condense and falls from the sky - hydro is solar energy)

In all cases, the sun provides the original energy.

Dumb ass fuck tard.



Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:44 | 1748755 bid the soldier...
bid the soldiers shoot's picture

maybe Apollo will help us pay off the debt

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:39 | 1748753 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

No trees?  HAHA, you are funny.

Someone must be from Los Angeles.......

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:51 | 1748761 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

Roughly 30% of the United States is forested.  Most of the decline of forest land, according to many sources including dept of forestry, is due not to harvest for lumber, but rather to the fact that much has been converted to agricultural land.

Trees are a crop.  Lumber companies plant for future harvest.  Unfortunately, because the gov't manages a lot of the forest lands and does not allow any cutting, many of the forests have massive wildfires and burn.  Also, incentives to plant are minimal because there is no private property interest.

If you want to see how "few" trees there are in the U.S. I suggest you take a flight over the Pacific Northwest and look out the window.


Fri, 10/07/2011 - 04:08 | 1748863 ThreeTrees
ThreeTrees's picture

I logged in to 1up you. Nice diatribe.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:12 | 1748546 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Even Ford realized there was no point in mass producing his vehicles if there was no one around who could afford one.

An international minimum wage (combined with sound money policies) would be far more effective than any race back to the early days of the industrial revolution.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:20 | 1748602 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

Yes Ford realized there needed to be someone who could afford to buy his cars. That's why he paid his workers twice the going rate.          An international minimun wage?  That statement suggests stupidity.        

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:38 | 1748646 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hey, I never said it would be easy. But then lots of things worth doing aren't, Homer.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:56 | 1748689 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

It's not worth doing and not easy. Just think of the kind of international laws and international enforcement it would require. Either you believe in some kind of world order, or just don't think. I hope it's the latter.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 15:50 | 1750768 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Right, I forgot I was posting on ZH where if you`re not promoting post apocalyptic homesteading on a PM placer mine, which you defend vehemently by shooting dead any non-white  (or white, depending on your perspective) that comes into range, then the only conclusion that can be automatically jumped to is that you simply must be advocating some sort of dismal global authouritarian Marxian dystopia... there is/never was/ can never ever never forever be any middle ground where sovereign nations make multilateral agreements that all involved parties consider binding. Oh, yet somehow contract law is the only immutable truth that should dictate anyone's sense of honour and actions, I should add. Well, either that or you're 'stupid'; for no other reason than some duped pigheaded zealot who views his precious putative rote as fact doesn't agree with you, lol.

What a bunch of extremist drama queens.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 15:51 | 1750842 akak
akak's picture

Your fervent defense of minimum wage laws, which any REAL (i.e., free market) economic thinker knows are wrong-headed, economically distorting and completely counterproductive, despite all the feel-good, muddle-headed warm 'n fuzzies they give their statist supporters, is enough to make me realize that you are still trapped in the status-quo and statist mindset.  Get back to us when you wake up from the statist nightmare; until then, enjoy voting for 'bammy one more time (assuming he gets the nomination).

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:47 | 1751095 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

And that personal attack proves you right again Akak, just because you always say so.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:40 | 1749380 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Suggests, no.  Proves vast oceans of ignorance in economics, yes..

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 17:44 | 1750818 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Narf narf. Ignorance of reality is you Econ 101 types praying at the Mankiwian altar

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:02 | 1750885 BigJim
BigJim's picture

...Even Ford realized there was no point in mass producing his vehicles if there was no one around who could afford one...

I keep hearing this stupid fucking argument. Do you think you can run a company at a profit by just selling your products to your own workers?

Let's examine what happens when you pay your workers higher wages. You have to raise the price of your product... which makes your product less affordable. Thus you sell fewer cars, not more. He was harming the creation of wealth, not helping it, by paying his employees higher than market rates.

I should also add that until Ford came along, cars were a luxury item, so his mass-produced vehicles were much cheaper, and he could afford to be generous. Once he had competition, which could and did hire workers at market rates, Ford would have gone out of business if he'd carried on paying his workers extra.

Paying his workers higher than market rates may have made him feel good, and earned their loyalty, but it had nothing to do with making his cars more affordable - the cars' final price had to reflect labor costs.

Do you think somehow everyone would be richer if we paid more for steel? Or oil? Just because the people receiving that additional money would have more to spend? How long have you been coming to ZH? Wake the fuck up.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:04 | 1750916 akak
akak's picture

Well thought-out and well said, BigJim.

This GoinFawr, isn't at all, when it comes to basic economic thinking.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:10 | 1750955 BigJim
BigJim's picture


I was so outraged by the mindlessness of this oft-repeated claim I wound up using more expletives than I intended.

So, my apologies, GoinFawr, but really... by now you should know better than to repeat such tripe.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:54 | 1751123 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Your fluffer might be keeping you right  hard, but that hardly means you`re keeping on the side of right.

No apology necessary for the strong words, if I was thin skinned I certainly wouldn`t be hanging around ZH, lol!

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 17:44 | 1751234 akak
akak's picture

You may possbily be thick skinned, but you are certainly thick headed.

For having hung around ZH for quite a while, you apparently still have yet to learn the basics of honest, free-market economics.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:01 | 1751280 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Oh Snap!

And you sir, having spent far too much time hanging around ZH spouting your 'anarcho capitalist unicorn that shits rainbows and skittles' ideology, have apparently yet to learn the basics of reality; not to mention historical precedence.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:59 | 1751377 akak
akak's picture

Oh, now THAT is rich, an economic (if not more broadly committed) statist talking about historical precedence!  If there is one thing the bolsters, however feebly, the coercive, statist mindset, it is an ignorance of history, particularly monetary and economic history.  As witnessed, for example, by the massive flocks of sheep currently being scared/herded into the "safety" of US Treasuries and the fiat US dollar by the historically unprecedented (and absurd) so-called "threat of deflation", when ALL historical precedence points to a deeply and unsustainably indebted government such as ours eventually debasing or destroying their fiat currency, instead of seeing their currency appreciate in value as a result of dealing with that overwhelming debt.


Fri, 10/07/2011 - 19:15 | 1751437 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Erm, I have repeatedly provided examples of successful mixed economies, that exist today. I am certainly willing to consider examples of any 'anarcho capitalist' systems that exist, or have ever existed (with a half life of over 30 seconds IE).

You don't have to 'love' something that is necessary or inevitable, but you might have to accept it to some degree if you want to function in the real world instead of dreaming of 'fantasy island'.

It's too bad you're having such a bad day in the markets, but please stop taking it out on me. It must be all the 'regulations' and 'onerous civil oversight' that is the cause.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 19:23 | 1751462 akak
akak's picture

Re: your "successful" mixed economies, one can argue that there are also a fair number of "successful" dictatorships in history as well; I guess it all depends on what your definition of "successful" actually is.  "Successful" compared to what?

Like all statists, however, you routinely fail to see, or even consider, all possibilities, or the unseen alternatives to your "successes".  Your so-called "successful mixed economies" would in all likelihood have been even greater successes were they freer and less statist/coercive.

I am not content to live in one of the "freest" or "most successful" prison camps in the world.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 20:20 | 1751573 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Sigh, 'successful' in terms of their degree of employment, standard of living, literacy rates, political involvement, fiscal responsibility, how they treat those they consider the least of their populations, social mobility, longevity, access to quality healthcare, civil liberties, the application of the rule of law to all, etc etc. You know, the criteria anyone with access to a dictionary would use to define 'success' when referring to a nation.

'So-called' indeud. I wonder if the majority of the residents of those nations I've mentioned feel the same way you do.

So essentially you've nothing then to back up your conjecture but theory, no practical applications to speak of whatsoever. Zero, zilch, nix, naught, nothing, nada; just your utopian pipe dream.

I' think I'll continue to look to existing, real world examples for solutions, rather than your half baked assertions, thanks.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:27 | 1748622 daxtonbrown
daxtonbrown's picture

[Would you do your research for $2.23 an hour, 40 hours a week?]

What a moronic statement. If the minimum wage were zero, why don't you tell us exactly how many people would work below their cost of labor production and below their expected future return on the investment of that work?

Of course the answer is zero, not even slaves are worked at that rate, only perhaps political prisoners. In a free country you only work if it is worthwhile to work. Lack of a minimum wage does not mean anyone will be forced to work for zero, anymore than if you raised the minimum wage to $1 million an hour anyone would find work at that rate. At any given moment and location there is a natural minimum wage that is far above zero and varies by person, not by government dictate.

Right now I work on a project that is literally brining me about a dollar an hour.  Why would I do that? Because I can eventually expand that business into one where I get paid even when I am not working, essentially making my pay per hour potentially limitless. With a true minimum wage, I couldn't even afford to work for myself right now.

In short, the minimum wage doesn't increase average wages, it simply decreases total employment. Nobody works for free or below thir base sustenance levels, unless perhaps they are an idiot progressive to stupid to calculate the fixed cost of their own labor.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:21 | 1748338 bigwavedave
bigwavedave's picture

Sounds to me he wants to be Donald Trump's Treasury Secretary. Where is the China bashing? 

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:25 | 1748348 Segestan
Segestan's picture

It seems Casey Research needs to do some more real time home work; 50 years of ' I have a dream' now go tell the millions upon millions they can't dream. No the Socialist will use this crisis to create another dream. Wake up Casey this isn't Kansas.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:47 | 1748395 LongBallsShortBrains
LongBallsShortBrains's picture

-----now go tell the millions upon millions they can't dream----

Let them dream...... Just put a small temporary tax on dreaming...

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:05 | 1748567 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I have to ask, because that word 'socialism' keeps coming up on ZH, but y'all must be referring to something else... I mean, Segestan, would you consider Norway to fit that bill?

If so:

the table that link contains tells a success story... isn't it considered wise to learn from functioning examples, rather than, say, flogging a dead horse?

(FWIW, I would call Norway a 'mixed economy', but even that seems to get ignorantly plastered with the same Stalinesque mustaches every time by derperate (sic) zealots determined to perpetuate ideological misconceptions by monkey hammering square pegs into round holes)

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:16 | 1748595 topcallingtroll
topcallingtroll's picture

When the luck of their geography runs out then their socialism will die and it will be seen for what it truly was, a selfish waste of natural resources so the present could have all their wants satisfied, future generations be damned.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:33 | 1748606 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

And that's just wishful thinking on your part.

Call me when it happens, until then you've got nothing but hubris and everyone knows it. Eg. How did Norway fare in late 2008?

Their Sovereign Wealth Fund seems to be doing just fine.

Last time I checked Norway has been around a fuck of a lot longer than some NA nations that don't need any mentioning.

'Luck of geography', what a load of malarkey, as if the US didn't have a much higher ratio of natural resources per capita, before you allowed them all to be appropriated by a handful of plutocrats, lol.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 03:16 | 1748837 richard in norway
richard in norway's picture

norway is a good country, strong and stable. good social cohesion, but there is a price. iits a bit dull. the us is many things and i wouldnt want to live there(i have spent one year over there) but it is never boring


this may sound stupid but i doubt that hip hop could have devoloped in any other land, it makes me wonder if its not worth all the misery and violence, when it produces new and vibrant art forms

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 11:42 | 1749796 falak pema
falak pema's picture

try more sex in reactivate the spice pump without making it into sex war. Being bored in life is like not having imagination. In the middle ages, when women's perfume first became "sexy" and being a 'virgin mary' was no longer the thing to be in civil society, they invented courteous love, fin amor. It was sex and yet consideration for each other. The way to go to avoid boredom. Not saying it has to be mindless porn...which is degrading for both sexes. With women's freedom today in this domain, you'd think that we now have a level table to being sexually happy as we can pick and chose partners and still have a stable family. If you allow the same freedom to your legit partner. I don't understand the regressionary trend in current civilization. We have every thing to be happy and more. And yet we are living the greatest material and moral crisis since eighty years!

You Norwegians should show us the way now. But please be less bored.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 04:26 | 1748872 ThreeTrees
ThreeTrees's picture

Nice post hoc. (the fallacy)

BTW, the economy here in Alberta is a lot like that of Norway, just smaller. Commodity (oil) and machinery (oil industry) are their main exports and the MASSIVE revenues possible in that sector fund the government's programs. Government revenues set their watch to the price of oil. The state loooooooves the oil patch but the economy depends on high oil prices. (Thankfully those will mostly continue to go up. For as long as I'm living here, anyway.)

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 09:43 | 1750954 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Watch for oil prices to drop right around the time your Premier decides to revamp your provincial royalty rates (or vice versa). Wait a sec, you just got a new PC leader! And with a provincial election coming up to boot... what's your take on her? True blue or red shoed?

And you're right, I concede that it doesn't follow that Norway faring better than most in the latter part of 2008 was a result of tct's hubris; OTOH only a pedant would have read it that way.

Look Socrates, any rhetorical clumsiness on my part aside, the point is clear to anyone who frequents this site:

-on ZH the word `socialism` is invariably denigrated out of hand as a failed ideology, even though more often than not the detractor is really just misnomering Stalinism/authoritarianism.

-All who do this consider `Yerapeein` politics `socialist` as a rule, and would certainly include the Norwegian system in this category.

-Norway is the very antonym of a `failed` state, by almost any metric you can conceive.

All clear now?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:36 | 1748642 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

National debt/surplus doesn't tell you anything about how socialist a country is (although it does tell you a bit about their fiscal responsibility). The only problem with having a surplus of 10% of GDP is that if said money is dumped back into the economy it would increase the money supply 10%, and thus drive 10% inflation in a short time.

Governments are horrible savers and horrible entrepeneurs, and Norway isn't that special. Sweden and Estonia are freer, but they're all chained together to the sinking Euro ship, so it hardly matters.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:46 | 1748673 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"National debt/surplus doesn't tell you anything about how socialist a country..."

Well,if you read my comment thoroughly you'll see that I never said it did.

"Governments are horrible savers and horrible entrepeneurs, and Norway isn't that special."

The SWF link I provided says different.

Euro sinks, but those still holding sovereign ownership of their natural resources/currencies are going to be far better off than those who've squandered them or lost them all to debt, no?

(See how Norway did in 2008 for eg.)


Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:28 | 1748354 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

DEFAULT is the ONLY WAY out of this mess, plus CLAWBACKS from the thieving banksters. it will (temporarily) prevent future bullshit financial shenanigans and perhaps instill some CONFIDENCE in the markets, as we can believe in the RULE OF LAW again.  Right now, only a deft trader or complete idiot sends their money to those criminals......

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:29 | 1748356 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

End the FED, end the Pensions, end the debt, restart without usery, ends the problem(s).

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:19 | 1748489 lynnybee
lynnybee's picture

Usery is the problem, always has been .     targeting young people & oldsters with unlimited credit .     GOT YA !   GOT YA TRAPPED in debt.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:41 | 1748659 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

Depends on what you mean by 'usury'. If you mean charging interest in general, then welcome back to the dark ages (where credit fell apart first, and then they banned it altogether, until they couldn't anymore). If you mean fraudlending, then you should say "end fraudlending" and/or "end credit expansion".

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:49 | 1748357 Libertarians fo...
Libertarians for Prosperity's picture




This is, without a doubt, one of the dumbest articles ever posted at ZeroHedge.  Full-retard insane.  It's difficult to even fathom that some people would think it's even remotely legit.   

You should have titled it, "How to completely fuck over the vast majority of the population" by Casey Research.

 Edit in:  Is this a joke?  Satire?






Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:55 | 1748417 dermus
dermus's picture

The damage is baked-in to the cake, the proposal is just a way of instituting damage-control and a path to future growth.

If you think the "vast majority of the population" can escape what's coming by some other method, let's hear it. Let me guess - Obama will save us with taxes on the rich, right? Or maybe Bernanke can save us by putting the entire economy on his balance sheet?

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:15 | 1748428 akak
akak's picture


You know what I think is nuts, LibertariansforProsperity, I mean RedneckRepugnicant, I mean WilliamtheBastard, I mean LongJuanSilver, I mean TexasGunslinger?  What I think is nuts is the same contemptible loser reregistering here under a new alias over and over again and hammering away in a forum hostile to his statist, pro-status-quo swill, after being soundly trounced intellectually and shorn of all credibility time after time.  Yeah, THAT is nuts!

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:01 | 1748436 kito
kito's picture

My favorite is "make minimum wage 0". Shit man, lets just wipe off the indentured servitude laws also. Casey research is comprised of marketing sharks with no intellectual teeth.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:05 | 1748450 akak
akak's picture

The minimum wage law is just price fixing by another name, and like all price fixing, it promotes inefficiencies and produces negative consequences never foreseen by the feel-good cretins who propose and enact such price fixing.  In other words, it simply doesn't work, and is a net negative on our economic prosperity AND freedoms.

If the minimum wage is so magically beneficent, why not make it $1000 an hour and make EVERYONE rich?

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:45 | 1748550 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture




Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:15 | 1748594 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Get a room you two.

See above.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 11:23 | 1749749 falak pema
falak pema's picture

I've looked found nothing to contradict my politico-economic construct. Its always the premises of any discussion that get hidden under the carpet. Get the political/value system premise out in the open and economic PHILOSOPHY (a misnomer, as its 'inexact' philosophy) and financial LANGUAGE become clear as a MEANS to an END : What we want to achieve in society, if anything, 'cos we can be libertarian -ararchists (that's fine, if its on the table as value system).

Cause and effect can then be analysed on a factual historical basis. We don't have to agree but we can build our constructs. I put mine on the table. Can you?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:49 | 1748677 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Golly gee Akak, the minimum wage is the idea that markets cannot somehow provide a living wage for all those who wish to work but aren't that talented.  Stupid idea!

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 11:17 | 1749012 falak pema
falak pema's picture

minimum wage is seen as an essential political antidote to international wage arbitrage paradigm. If you want the social contract with local workers being given preference to support local democracy, as part of a nation-state philosophy, then minimum wage makes sense, as economic arm of nationalist politico-economic platform. If you feel that nation-states are obsolete and markets are truly international and that the Oligarchs are the efficient economic agents of global change, then minimum wage makes no sense.

THe internationalists don't believe in minimum wage as it hampers from their viewpoint the efficient use of capital and competitive advantage. THe "OUR NATION FIRST" lobby does, or should, believe in minimum wage if its economically in step with its political aspirations. As it ensures not only local production but ALSO local consumption. Remember what H Ford said : "I pay my workers well so that they can buy the cars that I make..."


Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:53 | 1748562 Caviar Emptor
Caviar Emptor's picture

Slavery is indeed one way out of this mess. And think of how much you could produce as a slave! Productivity would take a great leap forward. And slave owners could set production quotas to avoid under and over production. There would also be a rich cultural tradition

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:54 | 1749437 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Even slavery has its costs:  You have to feed, house, and clothe them.  Then they have the audacity to have babies. 

Damn slaves.  Buncha takers!  Giving so little in return.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:44 | 1751224 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

'White Trash' was once a reference to slave owners who 'got rid' of their servants instead of caring for them after they'd outlived their usefulness.

Contemporary 'wage slaves' are even cheaper because their 'owners' never even have to consider that level of responsibility.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 03:15 | 1748834 Caggge
Caggge's picture

How about the part stating end prohibitions on insider trading. We should first try prosecuting those who violate existing laws for insider trading.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:39 | 1749375 chindit13
chindit13's picture

I reside in a land where there is no minimum wage.  There is also no societal safety net.  We have slaves here.

Many families here who are "Middle Class" take young children in as domestic help.  The children never attend school, work long hours cleaning and cooking and babysitting, and are not paid.  They do eat---at least whatever the family doesn't want---and they have shelter of sorts.  By adulthood they are illiterate and have zero savings, since they were never paid.  They might be free to go, but there is nowhere to go.  They never had a chance for education, because if they went to school they would not have eaten.

This is not the only country where this sort of thing occurs.  I have seen it elsewhere, including Thailand and India.

This is the nature of humanity.  Sometimes law and regulations are enacted to prevent humans from acting like.....humans.

This is not some Randian theory and fantasy world, where we all are basically moral and fair;  this is reality.  Give it time and opportunity, and the US would not be any different.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 09:56 | 1749448 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

I guess you have to ask what the "slaves" other options are.  Is starving on the streets a better situation?   Me, I don't know.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 10:28 | 1749552 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Some of the 8 to 10 year olds who take the "job" have only known deprivation, so I suppose it seems like a good opportunity.  Others decide all life sucks so might as well get on with dying, or bury their faces in a bag filled with some aromatic like glue and try to find a better world inside.

The world has always been this way.  The "no government" freedom and liberty folks have lived sheltered lives, far removed from base levels of humanity, and don't know this.  I don't happen to be of the belief that humans are basically good.  In decent circumstances it is easy to be good.  Take away those decent circumstances for any extended period of time, and we all return to our base selves.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 11:12 | 1749699 falak pema
falak pema's picture

What creates "decent circumstances" is the marriage of 'logic of power' and 'logic of reason' in any socety to create those very conditions called civilization. These two pumps, often at loggerheads, have fed the body politic of western civilization for two thousand years, based on principles of logic, fact over fiction/prejudice, free will and individual decision making in a collective legal framework. The framework has evolved in general for the better thanks to logic and science and observed facts, then corrective judicial actions.  You'd have thought that nation-states with dyed in the wool institutions, built over centuries, would not fall back to such systematic  government corruption of the elected and such systemic feudal barbarism of the elites as witnessed since thirty years....They have! We are there! People and nations have short memories. 

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 17:21 | 1751188 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

And this thread is yet another example of why I always read your posts even though I don`t always agree with what they contain, Chin.

Akak, Bj, Casey, what have you got to say for yourselves?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 17:49 | 1751242 akak
akak's picture

What have I got to say for myself?

I stand by my free market (non-coercive) economic principles.  Whereas you stand for ..... coercion.  You have already made that abundantly clear, so I have nothing more to say to you.  If you chose to frequent this forum, and this website, as you apparently have for some time, but have yet to grasp the fundamentals of free-market economic philosophy, then you are clearly just wasting your time.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:23 | 1751332 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

 I understand the `fundamentals` just fine, but you`re the one who is derperately (sic) grasping at them in the face of a reality that contradicts their premises.

I differ from Chin`s view in that I don`t believe the vast majority of people are born evil. The capacity for it, maybe. But whether produced by environment (conditioning), genetics or a combination of factors socio/psychopaths have to be compelled to behave or the cleverer ones will invariably abuse their powers.. `One bad apple...` and all that cal. Which means that even if you achieved your ridiculous `power vacuum` pipe dream, it would never last.



Fri, 10/07/2011 - 18:53 | 1751391 akak
akak's picture

Actually, I agree with you about the sociopaths and psychopaths.

Which is what makes your statist dream/nightmare all the more absurd --- what could possibly be WORSE than offering such people the vast positions of power that only statism can provide?  It is you, not I, who is the muddle-headed utopian, because you want to create positions of incredible power within governments, and then expect only angels to occupy or seek those positions.  The free market offers nothing remotely similar in the realm of power to such people as does government --- which is again, nothing but institutionalized coercion by its very definition.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 19:50 | 1751523 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I want to create the what now?

"--- what could possibly be WORSE than offering such people the vast positions of power that only statism can provide?"

Not sure, but I know what could be far better: putting responsible, pragmatic people into positions of power instead. Or are you contending that in your proposed wondrous magical happy land that all 'positions of power' would cease to exist and all of mankind would behave honourably, like free market Angels every one? Heh, and you say I need to examine historical record.

What you're advocating favours the '-paths'. And it would be a very short time indeed after its inception that they would resume doing what they've always done best...


Fri, 10/07/2011 - 20:08 | 1751547 akak
akak's picture

You are so woefully naive and misguided.  But that is to be expected from a statist.

No, it is what YOU are advocating that favors (not "favoUrs") the sociopaths --- the positions of mind-boggling power that only society-wide institutionalized coercion (i.e, government) can provide.  Again, there is NOTHING, no position even remotely, comparable within the free market to attract and feed the sociopathy of those who crave the exercise of power over others.  Are you utterly blind, or is your brain just stuck in neutral? 

Yes, Bernie Madoff was a sociopath, beyond question.  So is Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimond, and a host of others at the top levels of corporate America.  But I can't fail to note that NONE of them have ever launched any wars, slaughtering millions and destroying whole societies in the process, nor do they have any power to do so.  Nor can they undermine,, depreciate and corrupt the very (fiat) money we are forced by government to use to our financial detriment, as Ben Bernanke can so casually do.  Nor do any of them break down doors with militarized SWAT teams to arrest and throw in jail those who engage in the non-violent and victimless use of substances not approved by those in power.  And I can go on, and on, and on.

The free market is not perfect, because men are not perfect.  But the vast powers accumulated in government are the ultimate prize to the sociopaths and evil men who crave and exercise power over others. How can you POSSIBLY not see this?

If only you could hear how laughably naive is your plaintive whine that "if only we had the RIGHT people in power!".  Yes, and that claim has been made by countless dictators and their supporters throughout history as well.  You neglect to recognize that even IF you managed to get the "right" people in power, they will eventually fall or retire from power, leaving that position open to the very sociopaths and psychopaths who yearn for that power the most, and who will fight most vehemently and persistently for it --- and achieve it, too.  They always do.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 20:53 | 1751707 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

'favors' my bad, my 'murikan ain't so hot somtimes. 

" Again, there is NOTHING, no position even remotely, comparable within the free market to attract..." greed, power, monopoly without organised civil oversight, exploitation of the weak with no fear of retaliation,  coercion under threat of violence without any recourse whatsoever, etc etc.  The structure of a private business is essentially a mini authoritarian state, after all.

I applaud your passion, but you're making yourself look so silly it's getting to the point where I feel  a bit sorry for you.

And contrary to your Rothbardian assertion: there are plenty of historical examples of the 'right' people being in power, but I realize why you can never admit that, stubborn jackass that you are.

"Yes, Bernie Madoff was a sociopath, beyond question. So is Lloyd Blankfein, Jamie Dimond, and a host of others at the top levels of corporate America. But I can't fail to note that NONE of them have ever launched any wars, slaughtering millions and destroying whole societies in the process, nor do they have any power to do so. Nor can they undermine,, depreciate and corrupt the very (fiat) money we are forced by government to use to our financial detriment, as Ben Bernanke can so casually do. Nor do any of them break down doors with militarized SWAT teams to arrest and throw in jail those who engage in the non-violent and victimless use of substances not approved by those in power. And I can go on, and on, and on.."

Oh, and you do, you do. It's too bad you can't make an ounce of sense while you're at it, though. Cogency is obviously not your strong point. "None of them 'launched' any wars or destroyed whole societies in the process, nor do they have the power to do so"? Erm, is this like the 'how Akak defines success' thing? Do you follow current events?

I agree with you on the state of your nation and its imperialistic wars, both foreign and domestic, but the solution isn't to throw the baby out with the bathwater...


Fri, 10/07/2011 - 21:16 | 1751766 akak
akak's picture

" Again, there is NOTHING, no position even remotely, comparable within the free market to attract..." greed, power, monopoly without organised civil oversight, exploitation of the weak with no fear of retaliation,  coercion under threat of violence without any recourse whatsoever, etc etc.

What a blinkered, center-thinking fool --- don't you realize that you just defined GOVERNMENT in that little diatribe?  That last line, in particular, is the very essence of government --- and I dare you to show me anything even REMOTELY comparable in any semi-free economy to match it.  Trying to argue with such a hopelessly inured statist is pointless ---- you damn in one breath the very things you actively support in another.

When you realize that when it comes to government -- the institutionalization of coercion as the primary organizing principle of society --- that the baby and the bathwater are one and the same, perhaps enlightenment will finally find you.  Until then, carry on --- 6000 years of authoritarianism, inequality, injustice and grief just can't be wrong.

And I will end with perhaps my favorite quote of all time (thank you Robert LeFevre): Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.

PS: Your smugness, arrogance, and statist cluelessness have "Canadian" written all over them.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 21:47 | 1751850 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Well then, enjoy your illusions and delusions unicorn boy, I certainly have! I hope you make it back to prehistory, where the luddite dreamers all roam free!

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 21:52 | 1751872 akak
akak's picture

As I expected, you can only fall back into garbled insults and mindless reaction.  You know, you are just as bad as the innumerable pyschopaths who sheep like you have welcomed into government power --- you may not be a psychopath or sociopath yourself, but you and your statist ilk are certainly their enablers, and for that I damn you and all statists like you who adamantly refuse to either learn from history or grow a spine.  Cowards like yourself are always going to look to be led and controlled ---- may your chains rest lightly upon you.   But God damn you for allowing them to fall on everybody else at the same time.

Sat, 10/08/2011 - 11:01 | 1752783 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Yeah, yeah, and your conflicted absolutism will save the day. 

You just carry on sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that the world is black and white, even though reality keeps coming back to you in shades of grey. Let me know how that works out for you.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:44 | 1748547 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Um, with a moniker like "Libertarians for Prosperity" you don't sound very Libertarian.

Care to break down your view point in "Libertarian" terms? You know, a logical this point that idea sort of thing?

I consider myself libertarian, but I really can't logically follow anything you say. In fact, I don't think you said very much at all of note. So, I kind of consider this (1) I am not libertarian and I need to start over politically, or (2) you are just unable to palm a basketball like other libertarians.



Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:34 | 1748364 bill1102inf
bill1102inf's picture

The money the fed reserve has collected in interest since 1913 can pay off 100% of all of the debts in America with the swipe of a pen from the president.  The next signature can do away with the Fed and the US can finally issue real US DOLLARS printed by the government with a new, and much higher value.  Controls will be put in place to prevent inflation with will not happen naturally no matter how much $ the federal gov prints.  20% down on mortgages with a 2X income cap, maximum $1000.00 student loans/yr, 1% 6 year car loans (on american built only), america will be well on its way to prosperity where it belongs.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:45 | 1748670 Aeonios
Aeonios's picture

Yeah! Fuck Ben Bernanke! Let's make all our dollarz are belong to Timmay instead!

And then we'll put 'controls' in place so that he can.. uh.. print.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:44 | 1748388 Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

In other words tell the fucking truth? That everything we've "known" to be "true" was all a bullshit fantasy trip.Ok. Fine...but keep on paying into our soc security so others can keep drawing it until they die but phase it out so when we're too old to work we get shit?  Fuck that.  Just cut it all now if we're going that route and tell the whole fucking truth to people and put the lying politicians in one of the many prisons they've built for us. I've got news for you. The people suckling at the hind tit of Social Security TODAY have understood for a long long time that it's unsustainable and they should have had a contingency plan. You wan't them to keep getting paid by us and you want us to get nothing? I understand there are few alternatives in this shit sandwich we are forced to eat so I'll make a compromise. Start putting politicians and bankers in prison for their crimes and treason's and I'll keep paying into the ponzi so it can have a slow death. Otherwise fuck that shit. People need to go to prison but not just for the reason of  vengeance but for our safety and so they will stop fucking us up the ass every day. These people are GUILTY but we will at least give them the decency of a fair trial that they so love to deny some of their fellow citizens before we pass judgment on them. 

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:45 | 1748390 johnconnor
johnconnor's picture

"Reduce minimum wage to zero"... I see you want slavery back, great, let's unemployed to work for a piece of bread.

How about reinstating "prima notte" for bankers alla middle ages? they will accept it as payment on the principal, that will also be bullish on the economy.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:59 | 1748429 dermus
dermus's picture

1) Minimum wage means that if an employer thinks you're not productive enough to make $X/hr, you can't be employed. It creates chronic unemployment, especially amongst youth. That in turn deprives them from on the job training. They end up having to take on massive student loans to have any chance of ever being employed. How's that for indentured servitude?

2) Due to the minimum wage, students who need work experience on their resumes end up having to use the loophole of volunteering for free. So instead of getting less than the minimum wage, they get zero. Again, how's that for indentured servitude?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 06:42 | 1748938 ISEEIT
ISEEIT's picture

I would propose that the FEDERAL minimum wage laws be abolished. In fact in my opinion an addendum to this article ought to be made to stress the point that FEDERAL (central planning) is the nature of our problem. Excessive concentration of power in to few hands. What is needed over all is that power/authority needs to be decentralized.

To big to fail is in fact to big to succeed whether it be a bank or a government. What we have today are both and rather than fail (which they have) they prop themselves up on OUR backs by stealing from us and refusing to allow us freedom from their suffocating repression.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:11 | 1748466 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

The massive soverign debt has already made slaves of us. And the point is not to reduce the minimun wage to anything, but completely remove any minimum wage control. Let the market decide what your toil is worth. Or are you afraid of a free market to decide such things? 

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:37 | 1748643 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Perhaps you are right on that minimum wage.  I figure most on this site think about 309,500,000 Americans are good for nothing.  So, these good for nothings make too little to survive.  Then ask yourself, what are they going to do?  Sure, they should be docile and let their superiors flourish.  They SHOULD.  You superior beings have to make a small, prosperous society on your own.  Who wants to lead?

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 01:43 | 1748730 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

perhaps I am right to say that a business owner has the right to decide how much the labor in his business is worth. After all who knows best but the one who sees the business ledger and is taking all the risks. In your world someone in a far away office with no business risk is better equipped to make this decision. And in a free culture it is you that gets to decide if you want to lead or follow. To you that must be frightening. To succeed or fail on your own, a concept way to scary for you.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 16:36 | 1751054 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"After all who knows best but the one who sees the business ledger and is taking all the risks."

Hunh? `All` the risk? Yeah, the workers got it plush, they get paid whether they die on the job or not, lol. Never worked for a `limited` corp. have you?

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:54 | 1748414 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Any serious "when money dies" commenter first needs to address the fed and the fractional reserve private money creation racket. We must default and issue US Notes - interest and debt free.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 08:22 | 1749060 motley
motley's picture

Agreed, as usual, most people start quibling about the small potatoes like minimum wage etc. and forget the big things that need to happen first.  I forgive them as they have been conditioned to think this way.  We can talk about all that shit after the big things are addressed. The biggest things in my mind to save America are:

1) End the Fed and the fractional reserve banking system as we know it and install a monetary policy that is not debt base.

2) Stop policing the world and fighting wars for corporate/globalist purposes. We don't need 700 military bases around the world when we can't even lock down our own borders. Bring our troops home now and save our military power for a time when we really need it.

3) Stop the subsidies and tax loopholes for big business and big agriculture that is creating globalist monopolies. Get back to providing most of our own goods and foodstuffs.This includes energy as well, whether it be natural gas, oil, coal, or renewable energry. We need to do what is feasible and become mostly self sufficient.

4) Stop foreign aid until we can get our own financial house in order.

5) Expose and end the fake left/right paradigm and elect local, state, and federal politicians that support the above policies.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 22:58 | 1748424 mailll
mailll's picture

Instead of taxing people, including the rich more, I think a different approach should be taken.  The conventional way isn't working, so I think we should take an unconventional approach. I think construction spending can take us out of this economic turmoil that we're in.  The money to fund huge construction projects should not come from the Government. This will only increase our national debt even more. And this also leads to waste and corruption since most of their deals are shady and kept secret.   Instead, the money should come from contributions.  The people themselves should take on a nationwide fundraiser to fund construction projects.  The money should come from contributions, not taxes.  I am sure there are a lot of patriotic millionaires and billionaires, and even lower income people, who would be more than happy to make sizable donations to rebuild america. They would be more than happy to make contributions to build better roads, bridges, schools, hospitals, and whatever else needs to be built.  They just don't want to be forced into it.  This public fundraiser can be compared to FDR's WPA plan to put people to work on construction projects.  The only difference is that the money will come from private, willing contributors instead of from unwilling tax payers. Of course everything should be kept totally transparent in order for this to work. Every cent that is contributed must be accountable. The books should be kept open to the public, or at least to those who contribute. If this ever happeded, and if people are willing to contribute generously to these projects, then I think this increased construction spending will take us out of this economic downturn that we're in.  It would be a great job creator. This movement would also demonstate True Freedom. Freedom to give. Out with the government, and in with the people.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:15 | 1748591 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

National debt? Taxes, contributions? Just don't get it do you?

Read up on the Lincoln greenback and the United States Note.

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:58 | 1748696 Hohum
Hohum's picture

Splendid idea!  I expect James Dimon will sell his Bedford, NY mansion and purchase a one bedroom in East New York.  He will take the cash and invest in infrastructure and fusion technology.  Up with people!

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:07 | 1748456 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

As long as politicians need to raise millions of dollars from private interest in order to 

get re-elected , government will serve private interest and not the masses

What we need are term limits and public financing of campaigns. Private money

given to politicians for their campaigns amounts to bribery and should be outlawed.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:11 | 1748467 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

The Middele Class ..where have they gone?

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:12 | 1748468 andyupnorth
andyupnorth's picture

You can't eat money!

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:15 | 1748475 CapitalistRock
CapitalistRock's picture

Fortunately, we have lots history to learn from when it comes to governments and fiat currencies. The solution has always been pretty much what is outlined above.

Politically it's never been possible. It won't be different this time. Sell your fiat dollars while you can still get a good amount of gold for them. Later on you won't get much gold at all for them.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:31 | 1748516 akak
akak's picture

All true, but try telling that to the many deflationary flat-earthers who are either historically clueless idiots or, as I suspect in many cases, active shills and propagandists for the central bankers and the financial elites, scaring the sheep with mythical boogeymen into the fiat pens and setting them up for further shearing.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:17 | 1748480 PulauHantu29
PulauHantu29's picture

Vampires...not Zombies....Vampire Banks that are dead yet wake at times to suck life out of The Middle Class.

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:19 | 1748490 Bicycle Repairman
Bicycle Repairman's picture

"Euthanasia for Social Security and Medicare. Raise the eligibility age by one month every year."

Which is it, sport?  Euthanasia or a mild reform that fixes the retirement fund, but not medicare?

Fixing medicare is a matter of fixing the US healthcare system.  And when you do that you fix a large part of the US economy.  Or are you a fan of ObamaCare?

Thu, 10/06/2011 - 23:31 | 1748519 defencev
defencev's picture

This is a kind of progress for Casey crowd  which so far recognized only default as a remedy. What is suggested make sense but not enough. One  also needs credible program to revive manufacturing and building energy independence. It may require new government spending and hence tax increases. In my opinion, it is all doable with credible President not a Marxist redistributionist who seem to pay only lip service to the safeguarding the future  of the country...

Fri, 10/07/2011 - 00:18 | 1748600 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

No. Default please. It's not my debt. The debt is odious.

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