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Guest Post: Welcome To The United States Of Orwell, Part 3: We Had To Destroy Democracy In Order To Save It

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,


The National Security State has an Orwellian imperative: destroy democracy in order to "save" it.

Here is what I consider to be the dominant narrative of what I call the National Security State. The National Security State is comprised of the Pentagon, the Armed Forces, the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, the corporate military-industrial complex that profits from it and the "black" budgets, agencies and operations that are hidden from the citizenry in the name of "national security."

Here's the narrative: we were surprised by a treacherous, shadowy, sinister enemy and we have to set aside the niceties of democracy and civil liberties to combat this new and terrible foe. This was the narrative after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, and it set in motion a total-global-war mobilization of the entire American society and economy.

Civil liberties? Gone, baby: Executive Order 9066 sent 120,000 Americans to concentration camps hastily erected in various wastelands. It was for their own good, and for the good of the war effort, of course; but no questions or legal niceties were allowed. Executive Orders from the Commander in Chief (the President) are like that.

The entire economy and populace were commandeered for the war effort. Since the nation was still in the grip of a decade-long Depression, then borrowing a couple trillion dollars into existance and mobilizing the populace for global war was actually a welcome development to most people.

Since this was a war for national survival and democracy, anything that hindered the war effort (except making a profit, of course) was deemed unpatriotic. The propaganda machine duly cranked out films demonizing our enemies, burying defeats and glorifying victories.

The narrative was repeated in the 1950s once the Soviet Union obtained the nuclear bomb. Once again we were surprised by a treacherous, shadowy, dangerous enemy and we had to set aside the niceties of democracy and civil liberties to combat this new and terrible foe. Communist infiltrators were everywhere, and had to be rooted out. Niceties like civil liberties were tools used by the Commies to mask their heinous efforts to undermine our way of life.

The net result of this narrative was that any self-aggrandizing moron in Congress could slander a decorated and revered general in the U.S. Army (Sen. Joe McCarthy and General George Marshall) and get away with it. Since Commie sympathizers could be anywhere at any time, then domestic spying was necessary, and on a vast scale.

Fortunately, the National Security State had developed the necessary infrastructure for handling espionage and spying on a global scale, so it was a straightforward task to set up a domestic spying operation. If civil liberties had to be trampled to do so, it was necessary to protect the nation and "our way of life."

You see the key point in the narrative: "our way of life" is more important than civil liberties. This is of course an orwellian reversal of what the Founding Fathers had in mind, which was that civil liberties are our way of life.

The narrative that domestic spying was necessary to root out sinister underground bad guys led directly to the COINTELPRO subversion and suppression of Vietnam War-era domestic dissent in the 1960s.

The danger of political activities being lumped in with criminal activity is higher than most complacent Americans believe. It's easy to be naive about the essentially unlimited powers of the National Security State. Most people believe that only "bad people" get caught by the government trawler, but it isn't quite that simple. Anyone perceived as threatening or impeding the State's Imperial ambitions may be targeted. Please don't say that it "can't happen here" because it already happened here.

I was with a friend when the FBI swooped in to arrest him for political crimes against the State, i.e. refusing to support an illegal (undeclared) war. At the time, the FBI had some 10,000 agents tasked with suppressing or disrupting the antiwar movement by whatever means were deemed necessary. Meanwhile, the agency's anti-Mob (organized crime) unit was reduced to minimal staffing. When the State feels its Imperial agenda threatened, then run-of-the-mill criminality gets ignored and the full resources of the State are turned on political resistance to the National Security State.

Having been called into the FBI office myself for grilling (after being threatened along the "we know where you live" line), I can say from experience that the boundaries which are supposed to protect our rights only exist if you can afford high-powered legal representation and if you are able to raise a stink in the "right circles," i.e. within the Power Elites.

The default narrative is to become a repressive Police State with an active secret intelligence program against domestic dissent, i.e. COINTELPRO, the secret campaign to infiltrate, undermine, marginalize and/or subvert the antiwar movement.

This program employed illegal entry ("black bag jobs") and surveillance, extralegal force and violence (creating and funding extremist front groups to commit the violence at arms distance from the Federal government), and psychological warfare ("dirty tricks," harassment, misinformation, setting up pseudo-movements run by government agents, threaten activists' parents landlords, employers, etc.)

The 1976 Church Committee formed to investigate the domestic intelligence campaigns concluded:

"Many of the techniques used would be intolerable in a democratic society even if all of the targets had been involved in violent activity, but COINTELPRO went far beyond that...the Bureau conducted a sophisticated vigilante operation aimed squarely at preventing the exercise of First Amendment rights of speech and association."

Anyone who doesn't believe their government is capable of Police State repression and subversion of First Amendment rights should research COINTELPRO more fully. Nothing will be more threatening to the State than former insiders (those whose belief in the system has faded) turning into whistleblowers on the web. Nothing damages the National Security State more than a truthful accounting of its excesses.

Here is one source text: War at Home: Covert action against U.S. activists and what we can do about it.

Put simply: the State holds all the hammers, and you know what happens to raised nails.

It is self-evident that the Federal government must retain the means to track and arrest foreign agents of unfriendly governments or groups who are operating on U.S. soil. This is understood. The critical point being made here is that these counter-espionage efforts must comply with the Constitutional limits on government powers and not subvert our civil liberties.

It is an effortless slide for those in power to define domestic dissent as a "threat" that must be subverted, disrupted and suppressed--and limiting the Power Elites from pursuing such over-reach is the entire purpose of the Constitution.

Under the Obama administration, the National Security State has once again staked out the "legal" grounds for total mobilization of the American populace and economy. I invite all supporters of President Obama to carefully read his recent Executive Order entitled (with a truly Orwellian flourish) National Defense Resources Preparedness.

This Executive Order is chockful of extralegal directives and vaguely defined over-reach, of the sort that will be delineated more clearly when the Commander in Chief executes the broad powers laid out in this order.

The president will also be executing democracy and our civil liberties when he invokes this Executive Order. Even the most starry-eyed naive supporter of President Obama cannot read this document as anything but a blueprint for total mobilization and the destruction of the Constitution, democracy and our remaining civil rights.

If this Executive Order doesn't frighten you, then you're in denial.

It's actually very simple: whatever the National Security State does anywhere on Earth is legal. Whatever action you take to protect your civil liberties is illegal.

In case you have any doubts about where our "leadership" is taking us, please review these Assorted quotes by Fascists or about Fascism.


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Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:53 | 2297478 Stoploss
Stoploss's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:18 | 2297570 idea_hamster
idea_hamster's picture

This post is double plus ungood.

Everyone knows that unhelpful nails get removed, re-straightened, and re-introduced (by the hammer) so they can help society stay in one, double plus good piece.

(Hey, I gotta practice, right?)

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:36 | 2297629 whstlblwr
whstlblwr's picture

I think article is misdirected and only helps make paranoid, more paranoid. We have to stand up for what's right. And now government is corrupt and far away from the constitution. Also don't discount that many FBI etc, also have suffered when housing blows up, and from inflation caused by Fed's liquidity.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:39 | 2297638 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture



"How many fingers, Winston?"

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:57 | 2297699 RafterManFMJ
RafterManFMJ's picture

I'm so paranoid I've actually infiltrated myself.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2297808 kill switch
kill switch's picture

I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean there not out to get me...

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:06 | 2297926 Forgiven
Forgiven's picture

I guess that's better than penetrating yourself...ouch.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:49 | 2298118 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

And I'm reporting you.  I know you're with Goldstein.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:29 | 2297800 Bob
Bob's picture

Hell yeah, we'll mobilize in mass protest!

Oh, wait a minute . . .

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:05 | 2297531 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

Badges... we don't need no stinking badges!


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:13 | 2297547 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Once again we were surprised by a treacherous, shadowy, dangerous enemy and we had to set aside the niceties of democracy and civil liberties to combat this new and terrible foe. Communist infiltrators were everywhere, and had to be rooted out. Niceties like civil liberties were tools used by the Commies to mask their heinous efforts to undermine our way of life. The net result of this narrative was that any self-aggrandizing moron in Congress could slander a decorated and revered general in the U.S. Army (Sen. Joe McCarthy and General George Marshall) and get away with it."

Um, actually, as it turns out, there really were communist infiltrators everywhere. Joe McCarthy may have been crazy but after 50+ years, the facts have finally straggled out, and shown that he wasn't wrong.

Not that I don't agree with the gist of what you are saying. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:25 | 2297597 spinone
spinone's picture

Right. At that time half of the staff at the Washington dc russin embassy were KGB.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:29 | 2297609 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

+1 you said it better than I below..

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:33 | 2297618 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

You miss the point.  Maybe there were commie infiltrators everywhere.  BFD.  It got them precisely nothing.  Our self-inflicted footbullet of destroying our own liberties (presumably before the commies had a chance to do so) was worse than anything some "infiltrators" did or could have done to us.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2297714 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

I doubt BB missed the point, I'd guess it's more like he wanted you to.

Maybe his dad beats him with a bible every day?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:01 | 2297715 forexskin
forexskin's picture

what those infiltrators did to us is coming to fruition now. they managed to turn the defense of liberty into paranoid crime.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:51 | 2297882 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Exactly. Cui Bono? It seems that those supporting Communist totalitarianism in the 1950s, are finally getting their wish. Although our version of Communist totalitarianism looks a little different than their Soviet version.

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice", all of a sudden doesn't sound so extreme anymore...does it?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:06 | 2297925 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Speaking of 'sportin supportin for our dear older brother'

" more importantly (Tylers),

...  Has ZH ever released or sold any comment data?  How secure are your servers?"

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:18 | 2297975 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

What about our current system is Communist or Soviet in any way?  It resembles fascism far more closely - the Franco or Mussolini model more than the Hitler one, at least for now.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:31 | 2298279 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Hey, you didn't disingenuously misnomer any ideologies in that post! Prepare to be junked sir!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 19:13 | 2299042 forexskin
forexskin's picture

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice", all of a sudden doesn't sound so extreme anymore...does it?

poor old misunderstood Goldwater - a real american, a true product of the melting pot, and a man of virtue.

speaking of which, its only proper to finish his statement - "moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue"

cue the daisies and mushroom cloud propaganda... sheesh...

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:54 | 2298153 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

What? You have a problem with Marxism dominating our schools and media? You most be with Goldstein. 

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 17:22 | 2298656 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

BRAVO!!!     BB :-))

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:45 | 2297861 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture
U.S. Army Domestic Quick Reaction Force Riot Control Training Photos

The following photos are from March and February of this year and were taken at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Washington.  The first four photos from March depict riot control training for a “domestic quick reaction force” that would aid in civil disturbances.  The second set of photos from February depict the 67th Military Police Company that typically mans the area’s Regional Correctional Facility attempting to quell riots among “restless prison inmates” that have created a disturbance.  The photos are similar to a collection from May 2010 that depict several National Guard units from different parts of the U.S. quelling protesters in mock communities holding signs that say “Food Now”. A description of one of the events was posted to Facebook by the U.S. Army’s 5th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment:

The Soldiers in a closed formation bang their batons in cadence against their shields as an angry mob approaches.

“When I initially picked up my shield, the thought of the movie 300 was the first thing that came to mind,” said Spc. Kyle Wilhelmi.

Teams of Soldiers assigned to 3rd Squadron, 38th Cavalry Regiment, 201st Battlefield Surveillance Brigade conducted civil disturbance training here March 13. The Soldiers, though not quite Spartans, are effectively training to hold their line and successfully control crowds if called upon for a civil disturbance.

Soldiers with shields, batons and rifles pushed through and maintained a dominant stance against a mob of about 40 civilians. The riot escalated as the crowd began throwing snowballs, slurred profanity and made offensive gestures at the Soldiers. The more forceful members of the mob charged the Soldiers but were easily pushed back, as many often fell to the icy surface.

The overall goal of riot control group (RCG) is to control the crowd using less than lethal force.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:53 | 2297887 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Yay overturn of Posse Comitatus!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:17 | 2297970 Urban Roman
Urban Roman's picture

Today's RCG is tomorrow's bonus army.

And it ain't gonna be nearly as pretty this time.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:20 | 2297979 johngaltfla
johngaltfla's picture

At least one company has found a unique way to profit on the coming AI/Skynet Police State evolution:


8,131,012 is the most Terrifying U.S. Patent ever Issued
Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:56 | 2297481 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture



Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:47 | 2297663 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

Yep - we need to steal all the value from fiat globally so that you can continue using our money in the rigged casino.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:55 | 2297484 catacl1sm
catacl1sm's picture

We are watch you, Charles.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:09 | 2297543 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

"I can has teh Freedom™?"

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:56 | 2297492 pragmatic hobo
pragmatic hobo's picture

democracy can only exist as illusion.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:57 | 2297496 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

I guess the important lesson is: How was McCarthyism pushed back down in the hole from whence it came? Admittedly it was never completely beaten, but it certainly had a high water mark. Some prominent artists basically told the kangeroo court to FO and dared them to try to throw them in jail, my favorite being Pete Seeger. People basically need to stand up and start challenging the insanity.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:07 | 2297534 Watauga
Watauga's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:20 | 2298233 Watauga
Watauga's picture

No, no, I know what McCarthyism is, but how does it fit here?  McCarthy may have been overly zealous, but he was essentially correct.  Communists were prevalent in the U.S. government, particularly the State Dept, and throughout America, especially in the arts, and, contrary to what many of us have been told or have read, they were hellbent on destroying the U.S. to make way for a Soviet of American "Republics."  McCarthy overreached, to be sure, but his biggest mistake was in losing the public relations war. 

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:12 | 2298420 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

So sometimes it's OK to be violating the constitution as long as we're doing in for the right reason? I don't have to debate that, you've done too good a job yourself.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:38 | 2298942 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

McCarthy should have just arrested all the FED and bankers.....THAT would have solved the communist infiltration problem!

No revolution!

And bankers LOVE commies, don't ya know!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:05 | 2297918 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Um...OK. How do you square the "pushdown" of McCarthyism with the now rather indisputable fact that McCarthy was pretty much right-- there was significant penetration of US government and other american institutions by soviet agents.

Did the soviets win in the end? Did they successfully infiltrate our institutions and culture and undermine them? Did soviet agents that we never actually uncovered figure out a way to turn McCarthy into the bad guy, to turn his own weaknesses against himself? We can only judge by the results. History is about to render its verdict, and the answer is looking like, "yes".

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:03 | 2298170 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

The song made for this post is "I am the Owl" by the Dead Kennedys:

"I am the Owl"

I am your plumber
No I never went away
I still bug your bedrooms
And pick up everything you say
It can be a boring job
To monitor all day your excess talk

I hear when you're drinking
And cheating on your lonely wife
I play tape recordings
Of you to my friends at night

We've got our girl in bed with you
You're on candid camera
We just un-elected you

I am the owl
I seek out the foul
Wipe 'em away
Keep America free
For clean livin' folks like me

If you demonstrate
Against somebody we like
I'll slip on my wig
And see if I can start a riot
Transform you to an angry mob
All your leaders go to jail for my job

But we ain't the Russians
Political trials are taboo
We've got our secret
Ways of getting rid of you
Fill you full of LSD
Turn you loose on a freeway


Send you spinning
Send you spinning
Send you spinning all over the freeway
Spinning on the crowded freeway
Spinning on the freeway
Spinning on the freeway

The press, they never even cared
Why a youth leader walked into a speeding car
In ten years we'll leak the truth
By then it's only so much papaer

Watergate hurt
But nothing really ever changed
A teeny bit quiter
But we still play our little games

We still play our little games
We still play our little games
We still play our little games
We still play a lot of games

I am the owl

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:49 | 2298308 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture


Jello and NomeansNo

Bruc3's D1ari3:

"on the top floor, from my penthouse i survey what i rule high rises thin curtains all lights go out by two no one ever sees me yet i know all of you it's sort of like a small town when your whole lives are on my computer ah... ah... all the power, none of the stress so much better being hatchet man than a henpecked attention-starved target like the big man himself our goal is perpetual economic victory we play with you to amuse ourselves our motives are personal our motives are political our motives are sexual i know hi ho hi ho hi ho the laws we make for others don't apply to us we do what we want a lethargic population is the key to our control who'd rather watch someone's life on tv than participate in their own mentally they feel helpless physically they just give up we priced the healthy food so high they can only buy soda pop a house broken bee colony that goes home after 5 too burnt and glazed to threaten us with purpose in their lives ah... ah... ha ha ha we drug their snacks at work mix hormones in kids lunch at school don't be a pill, it's good for you the men grow up muscular short tempered and kinda dumb the women develop those outrageous curves the kind you only used to see in the movies and magazines we banned and rounded up for ourselves hi-ho hi-ho
it's off to do our work you go"

"the people must not realize
they are being manipulated
for them to be manipulated effectively

we give 'em things to worry about
buying clothes and losing weight
your lack of curiosity is the key to our success
your lack of curiosity is the key to our success
your lack of curiosity is the key to our success"

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:13 | 2298430 BobPaulson
BobPaulson's picture

Same comment as to Watauga above.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 17:12 | 2298615 Kayman
Kayman's picture

I doubt that the commies unearthed by McCarthy would ever have taken political control of the U.S. Reagan had it right; bankrupt them.  Unfortunately, we got addicted to borrowing and bankruptcy is in vogue everywhere.

Hitler, too, unearthed them damn commies. No dang democracy was going to get in his way.

Totalitarianism has many guises.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:57 | 2297497 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture Mike & The Mechanics Lyrics

" Silent Running "

Take the children and yourself
And hide out in the cellar
By now the fighting will be close at hand
Don’t believe the church and state
And everything they tell you
Believe in me, I’m with the high command

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

There’s a gun and ammunition
Just inside the doorway
Use it only in emergency
Better you should pray to god
The father and the spirit
Will guide you and protect from up here

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

Swear allegiance to the flag
Whatever flag they offer
Never hint at what you really feel
Teach the children quietly
For some day sons and daughters
Will rise up and fight while we stood still

Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?
Can you hear me, can you hear me running?
Can you hear me running, can you hear me calling you?

Can you hear me running (can you hear me calling you? )
(can you hear me) hear me calling you?
(can you hear me running) hear me running babe?
(can you hear me running) hear me running?
Calling you, calling you

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:03 | 2297522 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Muse also did an unbelievable song and video, "Uprising"

Paranoia is in bloom,
The PR, transmissions will resume
They'll try to, push drugs that keep us all dumbed down
And hope that, we will never see the truth around
(So come on)

Another promise, another seed
Another, packaged lie to keep us trapped in greed
And all the, green belts wrapped around our minds
And endless red tape to keep the truth confined
(So come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Interchanging mind control
Come let the, revolution takes its toll
If you could, flick the switch and open your third eye
You'd see that, we should never be afraid to die
(So come on)

Rise up and take the power back
It's time the, fat cats had a heart attack
You know that, their time's coming to an end
We have to, unify and watch our flag ascend
(So come on)

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey
Hey, hey, hey, hey

They will not force us
They will stop degrading us
They will not control us
We will be victorious
So come on

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:09 | 2297535 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Robot Traders Mom

sounds kind of similar to Lennons Working Class Hero

Working Class Hero


(John Lennon)
As Soon As You're Born They Make You Feel Small
By Giving You No Time Instead Of It All
Till The Pain Is So Big You Feel Nothing At All
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
They Hurt You At Home And They Hit You At School
They Hate You If Your Clever And They Despise A Fool
Till You're So Fucking Crazy You Can't Fallow Their Rules
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
When They've Tortured And Scared You For 20 Odd Years
Then They Expect You To Pick A Career
When You Can't Really Function You're So Full Of Fear
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
Keep You Doped Wit Religion And Sex And TV
And You Think You're So Clever And Classless And Free
But You're Still Fucking Peasants As Far As I Can See
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
There's Room At The Top They Are Telling You Still
But First You Must Learn How To Smile As You Kill
If You Want To Be Like The Folks On The Hill
A Working Class Hero Is Something To Be
If You Want To Be A Hero Just Follow Me
If You Want To Be A Hero Well Just Follow Me
Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:51 | 2297679 Antarctico
Antarctico's picture

How about The Knife by Genesis --


Genesis - The knife (live version) Lyrics
Album: Genesis Live

Tell me my life is about to begin,
Tell me that I'm a hero,
Promise me all of you violent dreams,
I guarantee all you will need them
Now, in this ugly world,
get ready to fight for your freedom
Now, when I give the word,
get ready to destroy all this evil
Now -

Stand up and fight, for you know we are right
We will strike at the lies
That have spread like disease through our minds.
Soon we'll have won and we'll treasure this worth
With our winnings and kindness
To all who our love now deserve
Some of you are going to die -
Martyrs, of course, to the freedom I will provide.

I'll give you the names of those you must kill
Then have all burned and quickly
Cover them up in Trafalgar Square
Hurry to see, you'll see them dead
In this ugly world,
ready to fight for your freedom
Now, when I give a word
hang 'em on high, let the blood flow
Now -

Stand up and fight, for you know we are right
We must strike at the lies
That have spread like disease through our minds
Soon we'll have won and we'll treasure this worth
With our winnings and kindness
To all who our love now deserve
Some of you are going to die -
Martyrs of course, to the freedom I will provide

We are only wanting freedom...

--- WE HAVE WON ---

Some of you are going to die,
Martyrs, of course, to the freedom I will provide

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:08 | 2297938 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

The studio version of The Knife from the Genesis album Trespass has lyrics that are even a little more hard core:

Tell me my life is about to begin
Tell me that I am a hero,
Promise me all of your violent dreams
Light up your body with anger.
Now, in this ugly world
it is time to destroy all this evil.
Now, when I give the word
get ready to fight for your freedom
Now -

Stand up and fight, for you know we are right
We must strike at the lies
That have spread like disease through our minds.
Soon we'll have power, every soldier will rest
And we'll spread out our kindness
To all who our love now deserve.
Some of you are going to die -
Martyrs of course to the freedom that I shall provide.

I'll give you the names of those you must kill,
All must die with their children.
Carry their heads to the palace of old,
Hang them high, let the blood flow.
Now, in this ugly world
break all the chains around us,
Now, the crusade has begun
give us a land fit for heroes,
Now -

Stand up and fight, for you know we are right
We must strike at the lies
That have spread like disease through our minds.
Soon we'll have power, every soldier will rest
And we'll spread out our kindness
To all who our love now deserve.
Some of you are going to die -
Martyrs of course to the freedom that I shall provide.

"OK, men, fire over their heads!"


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:01 | 2298822 Antarctico
Antarctico's picture

The studio version of The Knife from the Genesis album Trespass has lyrics that are even a little more hard core:


Agreed, but (and this is just my opinion) the performance of the Genesis Live version has more oomph that the original studio track. :)

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:16 | 2297562 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

By the way Ms.Robot is Robo these days? Has he come up with a new identity yet?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:23 | 2297588 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Thanks for asking. Just met with the Principal.


They want to hold him back again. Looks like he'll be the only 18-year old in 10th grade!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:30 | 2297610 V in PA
V in PA's picture

Failed Econ 101 again, didn't he? Shame. He'll get it sooner or later.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:36 | 2297630 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Do they still teach that in schools? I thought they replaced that with Analogue Clock Time Telling for Dummies. Well if they do still teach it my guess is that he'll get it later.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 11:59 | 2297509 vegas
vegas's picture

I'm thinkin' about movin' to Utah, just so I can be near the Big Brother spook house; this way they won't have far to come to get me. WTF.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:11 | 2297548 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Funny thing about that. My 71 year old mother in law, who I thought was out of touch on these things, brought that up in conversation. She knows it's dangerous and is extremely worried about it. I wonder how many "out of touch " people are having that conversation?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:14 | 2297511 Incubus
Incubus's picture

Society is a glorified form of playing "house."


Goddamned roleplayers.  


Lesser minds require suppositions of 'identity' to exist.  Simply 'being' is beyond their capability.  I look at the world and all I see are wasted minds--wasted potential.




Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:01 | 2297512 bigdumbnugly
bigdumbnugly's picture

we've always been at war with eurasia

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:07 | 2297930 NuckingFuts
NuckingFuts's picture

Yes, we have and War = Peace

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:01 | 2297515 Randall Cabot
Randall Cabot's picture

Mich. militia members cleared of charges that accused them of plotting war against government

By Associated Press, Published: March 27


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:21 | 2297774 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Headline might be slightly misleading, it is "a Michigan militia".  The story is about "the Hutaree militia".

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:47 | 2297865 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

Oops. THAT doesn't fit "The Narrative". I'm sure it was buried back on page 27, and printed in agate type. And it won't make the "most popular stories today" or "most forwarded stories today" boxes on every WaPo web page-- no matter how many views or forwards it gets.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:29 | 2298263 Abiotic Oil
Abiotic Oil's picture

Several have been held without bond for two years.  Word is they have been severly mistreated by the feds during that time to include isolation and near starvation diets.


An undercover informant was paid about $31,000 in cash for his critical role in an investigation that led to charges against members of a Midwest militia accused of plotting rebellion against the U.S., an FBI agent testified Tuesday.

Agent Leslie Larsen was the first witness at the weeks-long trial of seven members of a southern Michigan militia called Hutaree. She answered a series of friendly questions from a federal prosecutor, mostly describing the timeline of the 2008-10 investigation and certain milestones in the case.

Larsen said informant Dan Murray secretly recorded conversations with the militia while he trained or attended meetings with members, especially leader David Stone. Murray received $25,000 for his time – 300 to 400 hours – and $5,600 for expenses, such as his cellphone, tent, mileage and sleeping bags.

Larsen wasn't asked how the FBI determined his pay but said she didn't know if Murray reported the money to the Internal Revenue Service or paid taxes. Murray will be a key witness later in the trial.

Militia members from Michigan, Indiana and Ohio are accused of conspiring to ambush and kill a police officer, then attack the funeral procession with explosives and trigger a broader revolt against the U.S. government. They deny the charges and claim authorities overreached....

Another defense attorney, Mark Satawa, signaled to the jury that Murray's credibility will be under intense scrutiny.

"There was not a single act of violence perpetrated by a single individual sitting over here. ... Don't let fear be the thing you fear," Satawa told jurors, a day after prosecutors during their opening statement held up weapons and military-style equipment seized during the 2010 arrests.

During her testimony, Larsen said Murray was paid $12,700 for work ahead of the Hutaree investigation. She said he attended meetings of at least one other militia but there were no indications of illegal activity.

Larsen said the FBI removed Murray from the Hutaree in January 2010, more than two months before charges were filed, because an undercover agent had been securely planted inside the group.

Murray had his own problems in February of that year when he fired a gun toward his wife and, in a separate incident, attempted suicide, according to court records. Defense lawyers have suggested that the informant's personal problems may have motivated the government to round up Hutaree members, not because of some threat against police as authorities have insisted....

In court, the government played portions of videos apparently taken by Hutaree members and posted online. They show people dressed like soldiers firing weapons in the woods, crawling on their bellies and instructing one other about hand-to-hand combat. In one clip, a United Nations flag burns from a pole and is replaced by a Hutaree flag.

Larsen said she was concerned.

"Other militias have a designated training range, a designated firing range," the agent testified.

Of the original nine defendants, Joshua Clough, of Blissfield, Mich., is the only one to make a deal with prosecutors. He pleaded guilty in December to illegal use of a firearm and faces a mandatory five-year prison sentence. He could be called as a witness to testify for the government.

Besides Stone, the other defendants are Tina Mae Stone, Joshua Stone and David Stone Jr., all from Lenawee County; Thomas Piatek, of Whiting, Ind.; Michael Meeks, of Manchester, Mich.; and Kristopher Sickles, of Sandusky, Ohio. Jacob Ward, of Huron, Ohio, will have a separate trial.

Besides conspiracy charges, all face at least one firearm charge.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:02 | 2297517 Paul Atreides
Paul Atreides's picture

Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:09 | 2297518 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Time to start a Victory garden.

Wonder when the DHS will start selling Terror War bonds?

Wonder when the gas ration stamps (debit cards) will be issued?

Who will they put in the FEMA camps this go-round?  White guys with guns and a blog? 

Muslims will be exempted from the new "healthcare" bill (you MUST buy gub'mint insurance with $$$ going to J.P. Morgan Chase and subsidiaries) so there may be a lot of new converts if it passes - will they be put in the camps or employed as domestic spies?

With banks running the country via their bought and complicit Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches of government Lady Liberty has become a cough lozenge filled Pinata.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:25 | 2297783 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I'm wondering why DHS needs a "Homeland Security Investigations" (HSI) department. Most of what they seem to do used to be the FBI's job.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:08 | 2297936 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture


stack arms; talk freely; be at ease

  • do not point a firearm at anyone
  • no rocks thru windows
  • no fires
  • be yourself


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:08 | 2298200 The Alarmist
The Alarmist's picture

You need an EPA waiver to start that Victory Garden ... Can't have you competing with ADM now.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:02 | 2297519 jimijon
jimijon's picture

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:02 | 2297521 Alcoholic Nativ...
Alcoholic Native American's picture

U.S. has a republic, also an uninformed populace.

Good riddance.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:10 | 2297542 V in PA
V in PA's picture

The 'republic' died with the 17th amendment. We live in a Country of mob rule, or to put it another way Democracy.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:31 | 2297615 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

The republic never died.

A republic is a form of government which begets representation and that ruling charges are public and not private.

That is all. Has it been lost in the US? No.

Democracy is rule through people's authority.

Ochlocracy is rule through mob's authority.

Uniformed people indeed.

But hey, propaganda is vital to US citizenism and everything that can help confusing is welcome.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:48 | 2297668 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

Place on ground.

Light fuse.

Get away.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:08 | 2297743 JOYFUL
JOYFUL's picture

Instructions from ACME SURPLUS dynamite kit for Koyotes?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:08 | 2297932 Dave Thomas
Dave Thomas's picture

When I was a kid I thought a Rocket with Report! was neat, cause I undid the casing of the bottle rocket and saw Chinese newspaper articles inside! Whoa! that must be the report.

When I told my dad about this he just shook his head and knew his little Dave was special.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:22 | 2297778 AnAnonymouses
AnAnonymouses's picture

US citizenism laws like tampon with no string!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:00 | 2297912 zapdude
zapdude's picture

Good grief.  We now have an MDB for AnAnonymous.  I gave you +1 for your avatar -- nice.

Hey, shouldn't you be picking your nose and taking a dump along the side of the road somewhere?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:36 | 2298524 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:32 | 2297616 SillySalesmanQu...
SillySalesmanQuestion's picture

Correction, not uninformed, but, underinformed, misinformed and disinformed. Propgandize away are a sellout of the highest order.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2297807 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture





Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:03 | 2297523 bank guy in Brussels
bank guy in Brussels's picture

Ironic that in a post about Orwellian America, you link to a 'source' that is a CIA website spreading hoaxes, where CIA - NSA controllers can, in the next minute, change the information to the opposite of what it was when you linked it.

The CIA's Wikipedia, of course, born in the late 90s foundry of CIA internet-control companies, along with the CIA's Google Inc., and other companies out of CIA venture capital via In-Q-Tel and other conduits.

Jimmy 'Jimbo' Wales, the alleged 'Wikipedia founder' (actually it was the CIA) is a Jewish extremist arch-Zionist involved in criminal operations, and he is a prime agent of the both the CIA and Israeli's Mossad.

In the 1990s Jimmy was a porno meister, and his willingness to harm children and help destroy innocent people, is why the US picked him to be the 'front' for Wikipedia. Wikipedia's ruling 'hive politburo' - Jimmy Wales' inner circle - have criminal backgrounds and inclinations as well, like Wikipedia and Wales lawyer Fred Bauder, with a background in molesting women.

Jimmy Wales is SO important to Israel, that he was recently among a small group celebrating at a small birthday party with the elderly President of Israel ... the Israelis honoured and thanked Jimmy Wales, for his allowing Mossad to plant so many lies on Wikipedia to help slander, destroy and kill Muslims ... and also to help destroy and slander dissident and non-Zionist Jews who oppose the crimes of Israel.

The whole game of Wikipedia is that 90 % of it is fake-neutral, to get people used to trusting it on topics about which the CIA doesn't give a sh*t, and meanwhile thousands of US and Israeli intelligence agents are controllers planting false material. The US propaganda budget is well over USD 50 billion ... that pays for a lot of salaries of people 'supervising' Wikipedia.

The whole reason Wikipedia contributors are 'anonymous' is to hide the identities of Mossad and CIA agents and also US bank and corporate criminals supported by the US government.

The CIA's Google is what made the CIA's Wikipedia a success, pumping it up for years. Google eliminates many if not most duplicates of websites from search results ... except for the CIA's Wikipedia. They want everyone in the world to look at the CIA's Wikipedia first for any topic, and that's why you see it flooding the search results, and repeated by places like, a direct Mossad site run out of Jerusalem.

Also, Wikipedia puts out false information about crimes and censorship by Google ... and Google 'erases' some of the journalism about the crimes of Wales and his Wikipedia staff, some of the info about the CIA shills who are the front of Wikipedia's politburo hive controllers. A sweet deal between them ... the US found they could halfway control the internet with just two websites, Google and Wikipedia.

As has been said, Google and Wikipedia, are Joseph Goebbels' biggest wet dream come true.

Google's censoring of the refugee from the US in Belgium (whose avatar I use as a way of honouring him) - and censoring the websites and articles that were early exposés of the CIA-Wikipedia connection:

Live Photo: Google Inc. Caught Censoring EU Search Results (for USA - CIA)
Google Internet Censorship - Censure d'Internet par Google - Internet censuur door Google

'Ex-Agent: CIA Seed Money Helped Launch Google', retired intelligence agent Robert David Steele interviewed by Paul Joseph Watson on Alex Jones' Prison Planet site, and speaking of the CIA's Dr Rick Steinheiser and his connections with Google:

Current case: Wikipedia and Google in the attack on Europe, trying to murder European citizens criticising the USA:
Report to the EU Parliament and the Commission of the European Union
Anti-Competition Crimes of EU Internet Monopoly Google Inc. (with CIA) and Wikipedia (with CIA), to Erase EU Journalism, to Slander and Murder EU - Polish Citizen, Writer, Journalist,  Non-Zionist Jew, and Harvard graduate
Original in pdf format:

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:24 | 2297591 Maghreb
Maghreb's picture

I just read the Wikipedia entry man.........thats all bullshit................

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:28 | 2297607 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Ah, the conspiracy.

You know, I followed the development of Wikipedia and I can tell that putting money to control it would be a waste of it (but indeed, US citizenism is all about consumption)

Wikipedia is a joke that reflects the US citizen consensus over a matter.

There were wars of edition and people with the most resources won the wars, forcing their US citizen version on the rest of people.

The least people have resources, the least accurate tangential topics are about them.

Wikipedia is the result of US citizen popular will.

Is it influenced by some ops or something? Maybe but it would be useless because you will obtain the same result without ops influence.

The Internet was a formidable field test to measure US citizens addiction to censorship. US citizens must control the flow of the speech.

I ran many tests on Wikipedia on topics that are irrelevant to the ops you quoted. Censorship to shape the topic into a consensually accepted US citizen statement of facts happened.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:57 | 2297700 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

AnAnonymous said:

I ran many tests on Wikipedia on topics that are irrelevant to the ops you quoted. Censorship to shape the topic into a consensually accepted US citizen statement of facts happened.

Yes, I recall reading about your tests on Wikipedia:


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:34 | 2298518 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:51 | 2297680 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

holy Cow! Thaks for that BGIB.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:07 | 2297931 taxpayer102
taxpayer102's picture



@bank guy in Brussels

down votes for revealing truth?  Cass Sunstein(s) in the house.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 01:46 | 2299716 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

"It is self-evident that the Federal government must retain the means to track and arrest foreign agents of unfriendly governments or groups who are operating on U.S. soil."

hmm, like Israel? guess not.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:04 | 2297524 forward ho
forward ho's picture

I don"t think I'd like to be 1st today. thank you very much!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:04 | 2297527 monopoly
monopoly's picture

This is a scary post. I hope it never truly comes to this. I mean, this is still America. But I am open to all possibilities.

And off topic:  TYLER!, please move us to DEFCON 2, AAPL is red, AAPL is red! TY

BNNY, what a crock of crap. Look at that price.

Nice day to be carrying confetti+ physical.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:15 | 2297551 Money 4 Nothing
Money 4 Nothing's picture

It will my friend, it will.. sorry to have to be the reality of these inconvienient truths, but I have been "alligned" for years and there is a storm brewing just beneath the surface. Get small or stand and deliver. No other options in my research in the past 6 years besides just liquidating and leaving the Country.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 01:21 | 2299687 Marc_W
Marc_W's picture

Leaving is clearly the right choice for those who are able.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:58 | 2297708 msamour
msamour's picture

It is a bit late for that dude, you are right in the middle of it. The collapse of society has already started, it's a big giant, so the fall will take a long time. Could be as long as 10 to 20 years before we finally become like the former Soviet Union in the early 90's. heck look at cities like Detroit, Cincinati, and Philadelhia, just to name a few. We live in a shell of our former glory. You think things are bad, they are 10 times worse than you even know.





I used to have way more links, but I am using a new computer and I do not have my old links in memory in this one. I spent 14 hours one day just looking at vidoes of abandonned neighbourhoods and houses. We have to face it, we are in a slow decline of our lifestyles, our physical infrastructure, and our ability to feel pride in the counbtries we live in.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:08 | 2297528 Money 4 Nothing
Money 4 Nothing's picture

Here is a good example of how a fed infiltrated a Mich. militia.


I thought it was going to be open season on all Militias Nation wide after this, they got caught as being the provacatures themselves and lost the case, the law had to let all Huteree members go. I don't allign myself with their ideals, but they have a sense of Patriotism I must applaud.

The word Militia is not a verbod, State and private Militias have been around for centuries.


Minuite Men

State Police

Natiuonal Gaurd etc..


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:14 | 2297557 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Just like the feds tried to stir up shit with fast and furious. The feds are the criminals.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 01:28 | 2299697 Marc_W
Marc_W's picture

That's standard operating procedure for our Gestapo known as the FBI.  They did the same with anonymous and lulzsec after they converted Lulzsec's leader Sabu into their bitch.


Not to mention all of the "foiled terror plots" around the U.S. that were actually crafted entirely by some FBI agent.  The "domestic terrorist" always turns out to be some stupid Muslim they recruited online and talked into agreeing to carry out the FBI's Tom Clancy inspired plot.


Same with all those child pornography sites run by the feds (just about all of them).  Law Enforcement has had a near monopoly on child pornography on the web since the 1990's.


American "justice" is all about giving you just enough "freedom" (rope) to hang yourself.  I have discussed this directly with FBI agents and they will admit it to your face that they prefer to entrap people.  After all, instead of setting up dozens of child pornography sting operations, they could just set up nationwide filtering to prevent anyone from visiting them.  But that doesn't increase prosecutions and prisoner counts.  And that isn't conducive to American style "law enforcement."


What's best is when one law enforcement agency runs a sting and take down of an operation that is in fact a honey pot for a different law enforcement agency.  It happens more than you'd think, and it's hilarious when it does.


The FBI is basically nothing but Irish Catholics, especially at the high level positions.  Just look at their names.  Mc this and O' that.  The current law enforcement philosophy of the U.S., and especially the FBI, is rooted in Catholic dogma.  All are sinners!  And sinners must be punished!

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 01:57 | 2299730 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

You forgot to mention "Al-Qaeda". Oh wait, that's either a Mossad or CIA fabrication, not FBI.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:04 | 2297530 Watauga
Watauga's picture

I can buy alot of the overreaching-Big-Brother arguments, but one I will never buy is the use the of the word "concentration camp" concerning the detention camps used at the beginning of WWII.  I am not sure even about how wrong they were in fact.  But I am sure that the term "concentration camp" is inappropriate because of the connotation that term has take on since Hitler's use of concentration camps to imprison, torture, slaughter, and cremate Jews and other "enemies of the State."  The camps in the U.S. were temporary and were used as an emergency measure to ensure that no Fifth Column of Japanese had infiltrated the United States.  If you have a sense of history at all, you have to understand the American reaction to Pearl Harbor.  This was not unlike 9/11, except in 1941, an entire Navy Fleet was in the Pacific and, for all we knew with limited intelligence, was sailing for San Francisco.  A Fifth Column in California could have prepared the battlefield for success.  And recall, this was a WORLD AT WAR--TOTAL WAR.  Our nation had resisted entry but, having been attacked, our people knew that we were playing for keeps.  The decision was made, based upon limited intelligence at the time, to temporarily detain many Japanese-Americans in order to "play it safe."  Many of these detainees were released in the coming months.  All were released by the end of the war.  There were no tortures, executions, or cremations.  These were most certainly not concentration camps.

The problem, unfortunately, is that the use of such hyperbole discredits the otherwise well-made argument. Leave the hyperbole in the dictionary and make your argument without it.  You would have much better credibility.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:18 | 2297572 V in PA
V in PA's picture

I am in awe of your ability to parrot the Public Education / History Channel Narrative / Brain Washing bullshit, while missing the larger point. Detaining people because of their race, religion or political views is WRONG no matter what Country does it. There is no 'good' reason to arbitrarily detain people.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:07 | 2297736 Watauga
Watauga's picture

WTFO?  My discussion poses only the possibility that there is an argument that can be made, in a serious discussion of the use of detention camps, that such camps were necessary at the time.  There is even a straight-faced argument to be made that they were Constitutionally sound.  I DID NOT WRITE THAT I SUPPORTED THAT ARGUMENT.  And in no way would that position reflect, in any case, a Public Education/History Channel Narrative/Brainwashing Bullshit point-of-view.  To the contrary, it is exactly the opposite of such a "brainwashing," which is one of the reasons I find that it has a place in the discussion.  The "Party Line" on Japanese-American detention camps is that they were racist evil perpetrated by a paranoid White race against the "yellow man."  I call bullshit on that count.  They were a rational and measured response to what was perceived, based on intelligence of the time, existential threat.  Again, this does not mean I would support the argument in favor, but I certainly think the argument is entitled to be heard.  Which is precisely what your position does not countenance, making your position one of tyranny, shouting down alternatives in what should be the marketplace of ideas.  Your position is the one, though you do not seem to realize it, that is based purely on the propaganda machine of the last 50 years.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:21 | 2298893 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Well, given that the administration knew IN ADVANCE of the attack and did NOTHING to stop it, and everything to allow it, how is this whole multi-post argument not a non-sequitir based on a fasle premise?

The attack could have been stopped.  Problem solved.  No "warm and fuzzy Disneyland camps" (wouldn't want to mislabel them as concentration camps!) necessary.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 06:29 | 2299953 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Did Roosevelt know of the imminent attack?  The most we can say is that he POSSIBLY knew. 

But what is the point?  War was coming, regardless.  An effective Fifth Column of Japanese-Americans in California, Oregon, and Washington would have been a serious threat. 

AGAIN, YOU MISTAKE THE ARGUMENT BECAUSE YOU READ INTO WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE.  This is not about whether Roosevelt knew, or whether the camps were the morally right thing to do.  It is about the use of the term "CONCENTRATION CAMP" for what were, rather, temporary detention camps, or temporary holding facilities, or temporary security centers. . .  In any case, they were not CONCENTRATION CAMPS.  Now, if you want to read out of the that term all the Nazi baggage associated with it--the torture, murder, cremation, genocidal intent--then you can certainly use that term.  But grow up here and appreciate the connotation given that term in common usage.  If you do that, you certainly would agree with my point.

This is one of the great problems of the anti-Statist movement.  We use hyperbolic language to the point where we LOSE CREDIBILITY.  If we insist on calling Japanese-American detention camps in WWII concentration camps, anyone reading it from the outside simply will shrug and say, "Morons."  Would it not have been better to use a term that fits--detention camps or the like--and have that outsider not dismiss the entire argument?  How do we persuade people to think and possibly understand Statism if we push them away right from the start with silly hyperbole?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:20 | 2297578 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

Indeed. US citizen propaganda.

Mixing death camps with concentration camps, just like the Nazis did. After all, nazism is just an offspring of US citizenism. So why not? The US of A could not really do harm willingfully, hey? It is the beacon of the free world, remember?

Things that should be mentioned though is that German refugees who fled from Nazi Germany to the US of A, the mecca of US citizenism, were also sent to concentration camps.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:31 | 2297809 AnAnonymouses
AnAnonymouses's picture

US citizenism propaganda like English menu in Chinese restaurant; literal translation make you laugh!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:45 | 2297859 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

General Tso trained the Hunan army chicken chunks.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:29 | 2298502 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:42 | 2297848 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture


After all, nazism is just an offspring of US citizenism.

Ah, ah, more Chinese citizenism: fabled past, expanding the base, dilution of responsibility. As if PR of C was pinnacle of idealism and not willingfully harm Mongolians?

Well, it does not bide well for Mongolian citizens that have not accepted their fate of servant class of PR of C Chinese citizenism. As to cultural values that are not compatible with Chinese citizenism society, it cant work that way.

Chinese citizenism societies do not assimilate, do not integrate, but instead have a whole cultural values set prepared for that type of people.

All this kind of people have to get a specific set of cultural values which includes acceptance of forced role as servant class to Chinese citizenism. As well as acceptance of story of being "liberated" by PR of C humanitarianism Chinese citizenism.

Quite a telling story being spun here. But hey, blame it all on US citizenism. Such is the eternal nature of Chinese citizenism, so why not embrace it full force.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 16:29 | 2298498 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:16 | 2298874 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

US's really just Subject of the Crownism......that's all!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:26 | 2297600 Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

Youtube "Jesse Ventura Fema Camps"

He did an episode of Conspiracy Theory where he confronts one of the co-sponsors of HR645

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:40 | 2297642 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

I guess a camp where people were concentrated based solely on their ethnicity, at gunpoint, without even a mockery of due process, isn't a concentration camp.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:58 | 2297706 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Does anybody read anymore?  Try reading my post without imposing upon it what you THINK it says.  While I explain the nation's argument during a time of total, World War, to impose an incredibly limited, temporary detention of a group, I DID NOT argue IN FAVOR of it.  I EXPLAINED it. 

Second, my argument is with the use of the term "concentration camp."  Sure, concentrating a group of people in a detention camp could be, technically, an example of a generic concentration camp.  By the strict defintion as uninformed by common usage since Hitler's camps.  But since 1945, at least, the term "concentration camp" is used to describe not a detention camp, but to describe a Nazi torture, murder, and cremation camp.  To use that term to describe Japanese-American detention facilities during the war is pure hyperbole and discredits the argument.  THAT is what I wrote.

Third, if one were to read and understand history (I know, a tough task, as I am asking that your Four Horsemen actually read not just my short post, but objective books (not left-wing revisionist propaganda) about World War II, especially about Pearl Harbor and the Fifth Column), he would be open to the argument that there may have been a valid, and Constitutionally sound, reason for doing what the government did.  I am not arguing in favor of it, and I am not supporting it--I am merely suggesting that there is a straight-faced argument to be made.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:25 | 2297770 forexskin
forexskin's picture

"concentration camp." tm

maybe you forgot holocaust tm

read? yup, but your rhetoric is transparent while you think its fundamental

do you have a bigger point, or are you just spouting for the appearance of a 'learned' debate?

objective books? are you kidding? the what of history may be objective, but the why is often the unstated underpinning, and is never objective, because history is always a narrative with a purpose.

you overslept for class this morning, apparently.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:48 | 2298106 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Do you deny that there is such a thing as objective fact, or objective knowledge? 

Is everything we know mere illusion, subject to the whims of the individual? 

Of course there is objective history.  It is arguable that no such history actually exists, in FACT, because all history is written by fallible human beings, but in theory, of course there is objective history.  The closer one gets to it, the better the history. 

In any case, the entire point, as restated now several times, is that the use of the term "concentration camp" to describe the WWII detention camps use to house Japanese-Americans temporarily is hyperbolic given the connotation the term has in common usage since WWII.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:14 | 2298868 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

Well, if you do not favor the term "concentration camp", you will be relieved to know that we now have only FEMA camps!  Hurray!  I agree...."concentration camp" is soooooo yesterday.  I'm sure you will enjoy your stay there, and will willingly march right in the gates, 'cause, ya know, the government just HAS to do it, just for a little'll understand....

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 06:35 | 2299958 Watauga
Watauga's picture

And what are the FEMA camps?  We really don't know, do we?  They could be prison camps for those who oppose Statism.  They could be emergency facilities for people in need in times of social collapse.  They could be CONCENTRATION CAMPS designed to torture, murder, and cremate those the government detests.  They could be regional martial law holding facilities designed to be used to quell riots and reestablish order.  We really don't know.

If it turns out that FEMA camps are used for the same things that the Nazis used their concentration camps for, then by all means, we should call them concentration camps.  But if it turns out that they are used for saving lives in an emergency, I, for one, am not going to call them concentration camps.

You really have no sense of gray.  Everything is black and white in your world.  But reality is made up shades of gray "to infinity and beyond."  That is why God gave us judgment.  We examine the grays and sort out, using judgment (as informed by intelligence, conscience, strength. . . ) to decide how to behave.  Those lost in a world of only black and white can't possibly be effective in a world of countless shades of gray.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 20:31 | 2299079 forexskin
forexskin's picture

Is everything we know mere illusion, subject to the whims of the individual? 

of course not. this is a strawman argument - and suggests the subject at hand - history - is subject to the same standards as other areas of knowledge - which is BS.

History always comes with a teller, and beyond the 'what' and into the 'why', is not objective for that reason. theory and practice are the same in theory, but different in practice. there is no argument in suggesting objective history in theory. it does not exist in practice. it is a well known anecdote that history is written by the victors.

your entire point is not that the common usage of concentration camps due to the accepted connotations forbids its use. you've also suggested here it is arguable that the japanese american citizens being deprived of due process as they were sent there was somehow constitutional. it was not - it was based on wartime powers. i don't give a shit about convention - the statists have gotten a lot more sophisticated, and inflammatory rhetoric is useful to the extent that it draws attention to the problem.

if you still cling to the notion that anyone with the temerity to challenge your simplistic interpretations of history as you read it is somehow a statist, i call BS on that as well. you want to win an argument tossing a tar baby like statist? go f**k youself.

you'll find few here that defend a statist position (unless followed with an implicit /sarc). in fact you could learn something from that. the rhetoric you use sounds like it was stewed in the left / right 'objective history' paradigm, which became at some point part of the divide and conquer dialectic. that paradigm carries the statist's water. you won't get much slack here with those as your fellow travellers.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 06:50 | 2299978 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Dear child.  Please,  Control yourself.

(1) You may believe in 2 + 2 = 4.  Others may believe in 2 + 2 = 5. 

(2) The point is that the use of of the term "concentration camps" to describe the camps the U.S. government used to house (temporarily and without any suggestion of torture, murder, cremation or any other such evil) Japanese-Americans in WWII was hyperbole given the common usage of the term, "concentration camp" since WWII.  The usage of the term in the article was hyperbolic, and, at least for me, almost completely destroyed the credibility of the writer.

(3) I did NOT argue that it was Constitutionally sound.  I argued that you can make an argument that it was.  Roosevelt and his cronies certainly did.  Just as Lincoln found power in the Consitution to invade the C.S.A., suspend habeus corpus, and destroy any notion of a free press during the War.  I don't understand the incredible backlash against a suggestion that there are ways to view events differently than the ways you view them.  Unless you are, of course, almighty.

(4) Your "cling" language is awfully close to language used, not that long ago, by the Statist-in-Chief, which makes me wonder about you.

(5) Again, you read into what I have written things that simply are not there.  You read what you expect, or want, to read.  I do not argue in favor of some concept of history as objective truth.  I merely open a discussion about the nature of history.  Are there objective truths?  Is there such a thing as indisputable facts?  Is genuine knowledge about anything possible?  These basic questions tell us nothing about my own views.  So there is no need to get wound up, misrepresent my argument, then attack it as if you are accomplishing something.

(6) I read ZH because I find in it mostly useful and intelligent discussions.  Occasionally, I post when I read something that I think is well off-base.  Here, I found it to be unfortunate that an otherwise well-presented argument was sullied, even discredited, by the use of hyperbole.  I pointed it out.  I presented the POSSIBILITY that one could see the issue in grays instead of in black and white.  And, interestingly, as in the old Soviet Union or among Statist today, a chorus of court jesters have arisen to misrepresent and, using the false argument, tried to shout down all arguments with which it does not agree. 

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:51 | 2297881 memyselfiu
memyselfiu's picture

I understand what you mean regarding the negative connotation that 'concentration camp' entails. Language does matter and many groups have co-opted normally innocuous words and demonized them (ie socialism, progressive, conservative, Keynesian, capitalism, etc.). What you're saying is that, as a result of historic meaning to the general population, 'concentration camp' automatically inserts a negativity bias in those who hear it. Realistically, Guantanamo is a concentration camp. When our little community was evacuated due to fire we were first sent to a concentration area so that a head count could be taken before aerial evacuation. Nobody is being rounded up to be gassed (at least not yet). My grandparents were 5 years in a DP camp (displaced persons) which could technically have been called 'concentration camp', and were technically similar to the camps which interned the Japanese.

But regarding your point re: rounding up Germans/Japanese in WW2, your constitutionally sound argument does not hold water. If you applied a basic logic to it you could compare the Salem witch trials and state that the behaviour of the general populace at the time was acceptable. We however have the benefit of hindsight, unlike those of the past, and are able to look in the rearview mirror so as NOT to repeat the same mistakes. Which is the reason that we should not burn witches or imprison specific ethnicities. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Your explanation regarding the fifth column is also caveat emptor. Easy to sell when nothing happened after the fact, and no need to prove a fifth column existed either.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:37 | 2298055 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Concentration Camp - go visit the Spanish American War 1898 and see how they were used

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 17:35 | 2298709 Kayman
Kayman's picture

Try the Boer War.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:43 | 2298085 Watauga
Watauga's picture

"may have been a valid, and Constitutionally sound, reason for doing what the government did.  I am not arguing in favor of it, and I am not supporting it--I am merely suggesting that there is a straight-faced argument to be made."

"may have been"     "merely suggesting . . . a[n] argument to be made"   

Seriously, what is so difficult about this for you people?  I did NOT MAKE or SUPPORT the argument.  I suggested that such an argument deserves a fair hearing in the marketplace of ideas.  Of course, shouting down those who may offer an alternate point-of-view is a standard tactic of the Statist. 

As for Fifth Column, if you put away all of the Leftist, revisionist propaganda, you would learn that there was a very active and effective Japanese-American Fifth Column operating in Hawaii well before Pearl Harbor.  Additionally, such a Fifth Column was operating in California, as well, but without great effect following detention if many such operators in the camps. 

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:21 | 2297986 atomicwasted
atomicwasted's picture

The Nazis put forth plausible legal arguments for rounding up the Jews.  The reason for the constitution is to prevent the State from advancing a "straight face test" argument that results in arbitrary detention and death.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:34 | 2298036 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

No they didn't. They simply removed their Citizenship using the Nuremberg Laws.  That may be plausible to you

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:51 | 2298126 Watauga
Watauga's picture

Okay, and the relevance your comment to my original post is. . .?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 15:15 | 2298225 Treeplanter
Treeplanter's picture

I know a family that went to a camp.  Their neighbors bought their orchard/vineyard, kept it up and sold it back to them for the same price.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:39 | 2297832 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

the camps of which you speak were properly supplied with (1)food, did not endure (2)forced labor and lacked (3)crematoria.

How long would we have been able to maintain those ideal conditions under pressure of German/Japanese invasion?

don't kid yourself about who we are.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:53 | 2298141 Watauga
Watauga's picture

(1) I certainly have made it abundantly clear that in no way do I support the use of detention camps of any kind. 

(2) I argued merely that there is a position contrary to the politically-correct one that is worth contemplating.

(3) In no way did I indicate that I believed that Americans, or Europeans, or Westerners, or Africans, or anybody else was better than anyone else. 

So, from where do you even find comment?  In short, it is not responsive to the post to which it is attached.  Kid oneself?  Seriously.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:05 | 2297532 DogSlime
DogSlime's picture

The worst part is that most people will just roll over and accept this shit.  Most have accepted everything done so far.  It's not even like they've accepted it because they're running scared - they just don't fucking care :(

I've tried warning people about the encroaching police-state tactics/laws in the UK for the last 12 years... they look at me like I am nuts.  I've given up wasting my time trying.

The majority seem content enough with a police state.  Young children growing up now will never have known anything different, so they'll be even more accepting of it.

Where is the mass-outrage?  Where are the millions of people writing to their elected representitives?  Where are the huge marches and demonstrations  with banners?  Where is the public defiance?

We're fucked. 

I've said it before, but I would prefer to see a full scale nuclear armageddon rather than what we seem to be heading for.  Freedoms and rights are hard to win back once they're lost.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:41 | 2297645 cowpieflapjack
cowpieflapjack's picture

Even harder to regain once you're vaporized.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:06 | 2297533 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture


" I invite all supporters of President Obama to carefully read his recent Executive Order entitled (with a truly Orwellian flourish) National Defense Resources Preparedness."


Everytime I point this out to Obummer supporters they excuse it as necessary.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:10 | 2297544 Watauga
Watauga's picture

But it is necessary, if what you want to do is exercise unlimited power.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:23 | 2297586 djsmps
djsmps's picture

The argument I always hear is: "If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have to worry about it."

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:29 | 2297608 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Yeah I love it when I hear that one. They never seem to understand that in the eyes of the government everybody is doing something wrong.

Thu, 03/29/2012 - 02:04 | 2299738 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

I get that one all the time too. Along with the "we owe it to ourselves", "airports, roads, and bridges", and "for the children" memes. Some propagandist out there deserves a bonus.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:37 | 2297835 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I said it before, when you are presented with that argument, just say "Let me look through your wallet, after all if you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about."  If you are in their house, it works even better if you just start start looking at financial documents, etc.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 13:37 | 2297830 chubbar
chubbar's picture

Wrote to my congressman today about that E.O. and how it usurps the constitution and that it needs to be addressed by congress. Here's his response. I personally think he throws in the "student Loans" as a red herring so that he has plausible deniability. I never said a word about the student loan issue and only addressed Obama's E.O. that would impose martial law and steal private assets. This is a republican (not that it matters) congressman to boot.

"Thank you for contacting me regarding President Obama's use of Executive Orders. I appreciate having the benefit of your thoughts.


The President recently announced several executive orders allowing students to consolidate loans and make it easier for individuals to refinance their mortgages. Generally speaking, executive orders represent a change or clarification in administration policy, having the full force of law. The authority to issue executive orders may be explicitly granted in law, or may be assumed as an authority of the executive branch. This authority hasn't been without controversy, and previous Administrations throughout our history have been accused of abusing this privilege. Executive orders can be challenged in court, which demonstrates our system of checks and balances.

I share in your concerns regarding executive overreach and will continue to monitor the Administration's actions closely. I have been proud to work with my Democratic colleagues on issues ranging from veterans, to fishing, and transportation projects – I look forward to doing more with them in the future. I urge the President to work with, and not around Congress.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:06 | 2298845 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

They truly have their own slimy language, don't they?

That belongs in the crapper!!!

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:09 | 2297540 penexpers
penexpers's picture

These technocrats have overplayed their hand. Their plans for a post-industrial global police state are dead in the water as far as I'm concerned.

What does concern me is that these elites are in control of biological and nuclear weapons.

Sociopaths are self-destructive and I fear that when these elites finally know the game is up they're going to unleash hell on earth.

The question is who will be able to regain control of society in the midst of complete and utter chaos.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:17 | 2297563 aerial view
aerial view's picture

You're right CHS but the problem is: the masses of sheeple just don't care! How many times have I tried to enlighten my friends and relatives only to have them turn away from me with excuses such as "I'm already overworked and overstressed; I don't want to get involved in that, I'm afraid of risking my family's safety by protesting, we have real terrorists who are trying to kill us and the grand excuse, I trust my government to do the right thing"! Until someone comes up with a simple and effective way to wake the sheeple up to what is happening and a plan on how to proceed, there will be no change for the better: this is where 99% of our efforts should be directed!


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:19 | 2297573 centerline
centerline's picture

The majority will wake up when the ATMs stop working, government checks don't show up, etc.  Not a moment before.  I am certain of this now.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:32 | 2297614 Reptil
Reptil's picture


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:35 | 2297626 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Why would that ever happen?  Presses run out of ink perhaps?  That particular occurrence will never happen, the money you withdraw may buy nothing but there will be money for all..

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:44 | 2297657 centerline
centerline's picture

The system will reach a tipping point. Diminishing returns is what we are witnessing. And the acceleration is becoming noticeable to too many. Short of an outright war, the banking sector is likely going to get hit again (surprise, surprise). This time, the game will be much different.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 18:02 | 2298831 my puppy for prez
my puppy for prez's picture

That "how to" question is a bitch and actually keeps me up at night sometimes, as I lie in bed composing in my head some succinct and powerful pamphlet to awaken the herd. 

I think ZH should host a competition dedicated to seeing who can come up with the best (family friendly) one page "wake up and take action" piece (can it really fit on one page?).

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:28 | 2297567 centerline
centerline's picture

Groundwork is being put into place at a very quick pace and in plain sight.  That ought to say bundles about the risks (or plans) going forward.

EROEI is turning a corner against a backdrop of macroeconomic debt saturation.  The industrial age is at a turning point, with the baby boomer generation coming into retirement expecting all the promises to be kept.  Population and corresponding social complexity are off the charts.  Now we have so many people in so many developed countries that are akin to selfish, little children - brainwashed by decades of prosperity, propoganda, etc. - self-reinforcing and aggressive in the blindness to what we face as a species - and almost all dependant on the system.  Not to mention massive numbers of people living in underdeveloped nations that are dependant on foreign aide.

We are all Romans - only with computers and iThingies.  History repeats itself because human behavior is a much slower evolutionary course than the cycles of nations, markets, currencies, etc.  This time, we have built one hell of an empire and the stakes are exponentially higher than ever before.  This implies the mean reversion is going to be exponentially worse than ever before.


Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:17 | 2297568 Implicit simplicit
Implicit simplicit's picture

Unfortunately, it seems the majority of people just want to be taken care of by the goverment in exchange for freedom; or they don't like to think the goverment is capable of evil, and if it is they don't want to hear it about.

They just turn the volume up on New Jersey slut idols, or something like that.

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:29 | 2297598 centerline
centerline's picture

Some use the rationale that they are not "bad people," and have nothing to hide. Therefore, for the sake of security against evil they are okay with what is going on around us in terms of a creeping police state.

They won't understand how it could go bad until they finally get pissed off about something (like some new outrageous tax, or fee) only to find the police state does a great job of punishing them for anything but quietly paying-up, shutting-up, etc. Let alone finding out that the justice served by such a system is closer to no justice as opposed to that of a constitutional nation (unless you have lots of money).

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 12:31 | 2297612 Incubus
Incubus's picture

It's technically "....people just want to be taken care of by the government in exchange for the illusion of freedom."


There is no "choice" as far as anything meaningful is concerned.  As Carlin said:  If you want a bagel, however, you've got 23 different flavors.


Illusion of choice.  Nihilism manifested; all of us are drunk on a life of insignificance.  Yes, that's right--let us all dig deep and instill personal meaning onto the trivial.  Personalize the insignificance of your position in life and it doesn't hurt so much, eh?

Wed, 03/28/2012 - 14:00 | 2297908 memyselfiu
memyselfiu's picture

"Illusion of choice.  Nihilism manifested; all of us are drunk on a life of insignificance.  Yes, that's right--let us all dig deep and instill personal meaning onto the trivial.  Personalize the insignificance of your position in life and it doesn't hurt so much, eh?"

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