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Guest Post: When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil

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Submitted by Charles Hugh Smith from Of Two Minds

When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil

The Empire of Debt has only one end-point: a death spiral. It is evil and must be dismantled.

Ethics has no place in the Empire of Debt. The financialized Status Quo is careful to limit the language used to describe the situation in Greece to the subtexts of "obligations" and "avoiding chaos."

The reality being masked is that debt is now more important than people. The suffering of the people of Greece is presented as a footnote to the financial play being staged; when the suffering is noted, it is presented with a peculiar set of unspoken subtexts:

1. Looky-loo detachment of the "gosh, look at that wrecked car, are there any bodies?" sort. People slow down to look at car crashes, and they revel in videos of riots with the same detached fascination with mayhem that doesn't involve them. Tsk tsk, how awful, etc.

2. They're reaping what they sowed, "they made their bed, now they have to sleep in it," i.e. the suffering of Greek non-Elites is the richly deserved consequences of their government overborrowing.

This begs further investigation. In the normal course of affairs in corrupt kleptocracies, various Elites siphon off most of the swag and the commoners get just enough shreds to buy their complicity. In other words, it may well be that the entire populace of Greece benefitted handsomely from the massive State borrowing, but it also may well be that the private-sector Greeks received little of the swag. In this case, they don't "deserve" to be forced into debt-serfdom by their Euroland overlords.

The ethics of debt, at least in the officially sanctioned media, boils down to: nobody made them borrow all those euros, and so their suffering is just desserts.

What's lost in this subtext is the responsibility of the lender. Yes, nobody forced Greece to borrow 200 billion euros (or whatever the true total may be), but then nobody forced the lenders to extend the credit in the first place.

Consider an individual who is a visibly poor credit risk. He would like to borrow money to blow on consumption and then stiff the lender, but since he cannot create credit, he has to live within his means.

Now a lender comes along who can create credit out of thin air (via fractional reserve banking) and offers this poor credit risk $100,000 in collateral-free debt at low rates of interest. Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender.

In other words, if the lender is foolish enough to extend huge quantities of credit to a poor credit risk, then it's the lender who should suffer the losses when the borrower defaults.

This is the basis of bankruptcy laws--or used to be the basis. When an over-extended borrower defaults, the debt is cleared, the lender takes the loss/writedown, and the borrower loses whatever collateral was pledged. He is left with the basics to carry on: his auto, clothing, his job, and so on. His credit rating is impaired, and it is now his responsibility to earn back a credible credit rating.

The debt is discharged and the borrower must live within his means without relying on credit. But he is also free of the burdens of servicing the debt.

If the lender is forced into insolvency due to the losses, then so be it: lenders that cannot differentiate between good and bad credit risks should go under and disappear: that's what happens in a competitive, transparent capitalist economy. Fools who create credit and extend it to poor credit risks must be eliminated from the system as quickly as possible lest they destroy more capital in the future.

The potential for loss and actually bearing the consequences from irresponsible extensions of credit was unacceptable to the banking cartel, so they rewrote the laws. Now student loans in America cannot be discharged in bankruptcy court; they are permanent and must be carried and serviced until death. This is the acme of debt-serfdom.

The global banking cartel has declared Greece's debts to be permanent and its people debt-serfs. More precisely, some privately held debt will be written down, but certainly not all of it, and the debt owed to the European Central Bank cannot be written down a single euro: Greece must pay the interest on the full debt, whatever the costs to its people.

We might ask why the fully-financialized Status Quo of financial and political Elites so carefully insures no shadow of ethics passes over the Greek debt crisis: If they did, it would become obvious that when debt becomes more important than people, the system is evil and should be dismantled.

Yes, evil, as in evil empire: the Empire of Debt that now dominates the global economy is intrinsically evil and cannot be salvaged; the only way to rid the planet of its parasitic, pervasive evil is to dismantle it, all of it, everywhere.

Europe is a good place to start. The only way to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt is to stop obeying its commands: Greece should not pay a single euro on any of its debts, starting with debt owed to the Evil Empire of Debt's favorite tool, the Troika of the EU (European Union), the ECB and the IMF.

We are constantly told default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro would lead to chaos. Unfortunately for the Evil Empire of Debt and its Eurozone army of lackeys, toadies and apparatchiks, this claim is demonstrably false. Thanks to Pater Tenebrarum of the always excellent Acting Man financial blog, we have access to a 53-page report from Variant Perception that completely dismantles the fear-mongering claims of Apocalypse for the Greeks should their government default on its debts.

A Primer on the Euro Breakup: Default, Exit and Devaluation as the Optimal Solution. The only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro.

Once the debt has been renounced, Greece will have to live within its means, i.e. the goods and services produced by their economy. I think a critically important point has been lost in all the fear-mongering: the value of the goods and services produced by an economy remain the same whether they are valued in euros, gold, dollars, bat guano or any other open-market measure of value.

What will impoverish Greece is paying interest on the mountain of debt. If we value total Greek output of goods and services at 100 quatloos, and this economic activity generates a surplus of 10 quatloos, the Greek people can decide to consume that 10 quatloos, invest it or some mix of the two.

If they have to pay 10 quatloos in interest, then there is no capital left to invest in productive assets. As the existing productive assets degrade, wear out and become obsolete, then the goods and services produced will decline, along with the surplus generated. This sets up a positive feedback loop, i.e. a death spiral: as production of value declines, so too does the surplus available to invest in productive assets.

This is why the only way forward is default and exit from the debtors' prison of the euro. The only way forward is to value people more than debt, and to dismantle the evil Empire of Debt.

 

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Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:04 | 2173213 CalibratedConfidence
CalibratedConfidence's picture

speaking of debt, those who havn't read Debt: The First 5000 Years should consider picking up a copy.

http://www.calibratedconfidence.com/2012/02/debt-first-5000-years.html

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:18 | 2173239 trav7777
trav7777's picture

fuck you, CHS, if you didn't lend THEY SUED YOU FOR REDLINING...all because you wouldn't lend to people who WEREN'T going to pay back!  And when they DON'T pay back they blame the lender again!

Fuck this I'm a victim shit

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:25 | 2173263 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@trav7777

You are obviously missing the point that debt is a weapon that the banksters use to consolidate power.  Do you blame a child born in the Soviet Union in 1940 for having a lack of understanding of free market economics?  The common man/average person is a slave to the adopted system and Western "democracies" have adopted a rigged economic system.  Everybody loses, except for maybe the oligarchs.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:45 | 2173323 Sylvia Plath
Sylvia Plath's picture

HATE TO BE THE BARER OF BAD NEWS, BUT GREECE CHEATED TO GET MORE LOANS FROM THE ECB USING GOLDMANSACHS TECHNIQUES...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:52 | 2173349 cossack55
cossack55's picture

No one, not a single person, a community, or a nation can cheat a central bank.  CB's are in the business of cheating the entire freakin' planet.  A CMH to anyone who can cheat a CB honestly.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:09 | 2173432 Mad Marv
Mad Marv's picture

'Debt, Dirt, and the Devil; All 3 have a little something in common.' -One of my favorite quotes from an Old-Timer.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:11 | 2173577 margaris
margaris's picture

'Debt, Dirt, and the Devil...'

Nice quote, but....

1) Dirt can be a useful fertilizer if it doesn't consist of 100% filth.

2) The devil isn't such a bad guy after all.... maybe he is just misunderstood?

3) DEBT is the real culprit here. The concept of debt/usury is against all natural laws of the universe!

Its like what black holes are to our universe... everywhere they exist, everything is ****** up beyond all recognition. Even beyond every ability of recognition.

 

Thats why debt is infinite times more evil then dirt and devil.... because wherever debt emerges.... all prevailing rules and laws are turned upside down... much like a black hole does to the fabric of space and time.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:40 | 2173729 Mr Lennon Hendrix
Mr Lennon Hendrix's picture

Look, there is a Global Cabal of Banking Houses run by the Illuminatti to destroy the wealth of the world while picking up all the hard assets in the wake.  Are we willing victems?  Absolutely.  Sadism and masochism runs deep in our cultures.  But after we take responsibility for our action (and inaction) we need to loacte the perpetrator of the crimes.  The Global Cabal.  The Banking Houses.

It was the Bankers that funded the politicians who went against the Freedom of humanity and instituted the Fiat Ponzi, after giving sovereign rights to corporations.  Now the Nation-State has been laid to waste by the psuedo-science of economics and corporations have inherited the wealth.  However wrong we have been and however low we have fallen, we need to right ourselves and take back what is our's.  It is our freedom we have lost, and we must find it, however we can, and take it back.

If that means blame individuals like Obama, Bush, Bernanke, and Greenspan, we must cut off all heads of the beast.  If that means targeting corporations, we must stick our swords in their belly.  If it means stop funding the fascist governernments and walking out on the political dialectic of left vs right, we must do it.  We must do something, anything, and the choice is ours, but we must do something, and now, for there isn't much time left.

Growth has already stagnated due to a peak in worldwide oil production in 2009 when the House of Saud peaked (they were the Swing Producer).  Prices are increasing dramatically due to economic policy.  People can't pay their bills, because there is no work.  This has been wrought due to the fascist nature of the marketplace.  We must take capitalism back from the corporations.  We must take our fate into our own hands.  And once again, we must do so now.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:47 | 2173749 TheSilverJournal
TheSilverJournal's picture

Nothing is more important to the money printers than maintaining their control over the printing press. Nothing.

TheSilverJournal.com

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:35 | 2174063 engineertheeconomy
engineertheeconomy's picture

All Bankers are evil cocksuckers

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:05 | 2174108 economics1996
economics1996's picture

100% reserve requirement bankers using gold or silver as reserves were good guys.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:06 | 2174991 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

So according to this deluded nonsense America is one of the biggest victims in the world?

 China basically goes on the arm to the US in large enough quanities to rebuild several cities the size of Detroit and the US is the victim?

The borrowers are the victims even though rates are at near lint levels and most of their prosperity exists largely thanks to the debt.

Sure they are victims!

Down with leverage, down with margin, oh wait anytime the CME et al raises margin reqs that is frowned upon.

 

Student loan debt is not dischargable because when it was doctors and lawyers frequently graduated from school and promptly filed for bankruptcy.

 

-just another deaf, dumb, blind loser member of the human race who existence was largely unimaginable to two generations ago.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:56 | 2173771 narapoiddyslexia
narapoiddyslexia's picture

But there are other issues, unique to Europe, overlooked elsewhere. The most important is that many of the Greeks want to become/remain part of the greater European family. I've heard many of them say they like being a part of the European family, and they are willing to pay a cost to stay in the Euro.

The Europeans are starting a cointinent-wide cultural/governmental assimilation and its painful, and it will take decades, if it works at all.

Will Europe become more like Germany, or will Germany become more like Europe? I think the Greeks may well tough it out to have their say.

Stay tuned.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:28 | 2175090 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Other than the nations living way above their heads largely via social costs,

and the US economic woes created by those evil zionista banksters making capital available to the masses at ridiculously low interest,

super sharp points.

Making capital available to the masses at lint like interest is somehow a scheme by the evil bankster cabal to take advantage of the masses. I read it on the internets.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:59 | 2173778 Pinktip
Pinktip's picture

"God made dirt, dirt can't hurt"......Northeast Redneck quote.....:)

Debt is Biblical, so is the Devil........Enslavement to the system....Devil is in the details.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 09:48 | 2174625 midtowng
midtowng's picture

I should point out that debt = money and money = debt in a fiat currency system.

So to say that this is an Empire of Debt and they are putting debt over people is really saying this is an Empire of Money and they are putting money over people.

  This has always been true. It's nothing new.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:26 | 2174658 traderjoe
traderjoe's picture

Not true about all fiat being debt. The United States Note was printed directly from the US Treasury - for 100 years. It was printed into existence, not borrowed like a FRN.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:08 | 2173564 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

well i do agree "you can't cheat a cheater." i'm not sure if honesty will work either however...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:28 | 2173612 Marco
Marco's picture

FDR cheated the central banks.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:07 | 2174113 economics1996
economics1996's picture

The Fed inflated under FDR just like they did under Hoover, LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, Bush I & II, and every president.  The only thing thast changes is the game plan, and that don't change much.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:48 | 2174385 Marco
Marco's picture

Oh FDR certainly inflated, but he did in a way central banks truly loathe ... by expanding the money supply without expanding debt. There were presidents before him who did so too, but none of the ones on your list did it.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 15:54 | 2175615 economics1996
economics1996's picture

The monetary base was expanded but banks did not lend, due to fear.  Its not like the Fed didn't give it a try, they did.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 20:01 | 2176146 Marco
Marco's picture

That's not really my point ... my point is that normally someone has to borrow for a central bank to increase the money supply, mostly the government. From the point of view of central banks all new currency has to be backed by debt obligations.

FDR confiscated gold and revalued it, this was true money printing without any increase in debt ... for good or ill he used gold confiscation and monetary policy to redistribute more wealth from rich to poor than any US president before or since (although Bush and Obama might be able to rival him in magnitude, just in the other direction).

To what extent FDR fucked the US population is an open question, that he fucked the Fed is plain to see for anyone with half a brain ... he took their gold, just like he took the gold of everyone else ... they had no privilege to him, rather unique in modern US history.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 21:46 | 2176479 economics1996
economics1996's picture

Executive Order 6102 is an Executive Order signed on April 5, 1933, by U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt "forbidding the Hoarding of Gold Coin, Gold Bullion, and Gold Certificateswithin the continental United States". The order criminalized the possession of monetary gold by any individual, partnership, association or corporation.  The order was rationalized on the grounds that hard times had caused "hoarding" of gold, stalling economic growth and making the depression worse.[1] The New York Times, on April 6, 1933 p. 16, wrote under the headline "Hoarding of Gold", "The Executive Order issued by the President yesterday amplifies and particularizes his earlier warnings against hoarding. On March 6, taking advantage of a wartime statute that had not been repealed, he forbade the hoarding 'of gold or silver coin or bullion or currency,' under penalty of $10,000 fine or ten years imprisonment or both."

By Executive Order Of The President of The United States, March 9, 1933.

By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5 (b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended by Section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, in which Congress declared that a serious emergency exists, I as President, do declare that the national emergency still exists; that the continued private hoarding of gold and silver by subjects of the United States poses a grave threat to the peace, equal justice, and well-being of the United States; and that appropriate measures must be taken immediately to protect the interests of our people.

Therefore, pursuant to the above authority, I hereby proclaim that such gold and silver holdings are prohibited, and that all such coin, bullion or other possessions of gold and silver be tendered within fourteen days to agents of the Government of the United States for compensation at the official price, in the legal tender of the Government.

All safe deposit boxes in banks or financial institutions have been sealed, pending action in the due course of the law. All sales or purchases or movements of such gold and silver within the borders of the United States and its territories and all foreign exchange transactions or movements of such metals across the border are hereby prohibited.

Your possession of these proscribed metals and/or your maintenance of a safe deposit box to store them is known by the government from bank and insurance records. Therefore, be advised that your vault box must remain sealed, and may only be opened in the presence of an agent of the Internal Revenue Service.

By lawful order given this day, the President of the United States.

Franklin Roosevelt – March 9, 1933


Sun, 02/19/2012 - 22:03 | 2176510 Marco
Marco's picture

Do you have a point to make? It was the gold reserve act which took the gold from the Fed BTW.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:53 | 2173355 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Sylvia Plath

If you are attempting to refute something I wrote, it is not evident in what you wrote.  In a system built on corruption, don't expect any party to a transaction to have good intentions.  It's called a "clusterfuck" for a reason.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:02 | 2173397 Slartebartfast
Slartebartfast's picture

Hey GS Troll!  You bastards did all the crooked deals with your bought and paid for Greek politicians.  Fuck the evil empire of Banksters!  Let them burn!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:11 | 2173555 Michael
Michael's picture

I was thinking about this the other day. Leave it to Of Two Minds to spell it out succinctly. Very well done.

A strategic default on behalf of the Geek peoples well being is a good business decision.

The banks, bank examiners, and underwriters should have known the risks of shoving unplayable debt down peoples throats. It was a bad gamble on the part of the banks and they should stop wining like sore losers over their gambling loses and and suck it up.

There's nothing wrong with strategic default just like these people are doing;

The U.S. Foreclosure Crisis, Beverly Hills-style

"Welcome to foreclosure Beverly Hills-style.

Some 180 houses in Beverly Hills, the storied Los Angeles enclave rich with Hollywood stars and music moguls, have been foreclosed on by lenders, scheduled for auction, or served with a default notice, the highest level since the 2008 financial crash, according to a Reuters analysis of figures compiled by RealtyTrac, which tracks foreclosures nationwide.

As in the default-ravaged suburban subdivisions of Phoenix, Arizona, and Tampa, Florida, plunging real estate prices are the root of the problem in Beverly Hills.

But the dynamics of the residential real estate collapse are very different in elite neighborhoods such as this. The majority of delinquent homeowners here owe more than $1 million. Many are walking away not because they can't pay, but because they judge it would be foolish to keep doing so.

"It's a business decision, not an emotional one which it is for normal people," said Deborah Bremner, owner of the Bremner Group at Coldwell Banker, which specializes in high-end properties in the Los Angeles area. "I go to cocktail parties and all people are talking about is whether it is time to walk away, although they will never be quoted in the real world."

She said she had seen in Beverly Hills a big increase in "strategic defaults," in which owners who can still afford to make their monthly mortgage payment choose not to because the property is now worth so much less than the giant loan used to buy it during the housing bubble.

Strategic default is an especially appealing option in California, one of only a handful of U.S. states where primary mortgages made by banks are "non-recourse" loans. That means the loan is secured solely by the property, and banks cannot go after a delinquent owner's wages or other assets if they default."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/46411361/ns/business-real_estate

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:24 | 2173706 nodhannum
nodhannum's picture

The pond scum that resides in Beverly Hills treats people the same way as they treat property, especially spouses, a business decision on when it is time to walk away.  Feel the love.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:26 | 2174235 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/02/mba-walksaway-from-hq/

Apparently strategically defaulting Mortgage bankers are also pond scum, but I repeat myself.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:08 | 2174360 rayduh4life
rayduh4life's picture

Yep!  Spot on.  No deficiency suits nor any right of redemption in AZ.  Sucks for some but amazed by some folks attitudes that are now renting similar or better properties for less than their  old mortgage payment. 

When the little people default they're deadbeats - subprime.

when the rich default, it's a strategic business decision.

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 02:56 | 2174427 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

Wow, a nice one . Thx, Michael .

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:21 | 2173595 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Fractional reserve banking, conjuring what they claim is 'money,' but that which is really debt (since there is nothing of inherent value backing it), from thin air, leveraging it up by many multitudes, getting a nation to endorse it as monopolistic fiat (and enforce the monopolistic recognition of it as such), is the problem.

If 90% of loans go bad (or more), the fractional reserve bankers lose nothing. They created money from nothing and received the protection of the nation in distributing fiat monopoly currency. Not only do they lose nothing, the actually gain all real assets that were pledged as collateral to securitize most of the loans that went 'bad.'

It's the biggest scam in the history of mankind.

Once a person grasps this basic concept, they'll understand why events have taken place as they have (Bretton Woods*; Plaza Accord; Federal Reserve Act of 1913; closing of the gold standard in 1971*, etc.), and they'll finally grasp how a select few have rigged the game to be able to harvest assets continually, and concentrate wealth and power, by doing nothing other than maintaining Deep Capture of a nation's legislative and judiciary branches (and executive, in the case of the U.S.) of government.

 

*On August 15, 1971, the United States unilaterally terminated convertibility of the dollar to gold. As a result, "[t]he Bretton Woods system officially ended and the dollar became fully fiat currency, backed by nothing but the promise of the federal government." This action, referred to as the Nixon shock, created the situation in which the United States dollar became the sole backing of currencies and a reserve currency for the member states. At the same time, many fixed currencies also became free floating.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:39 | 2173636 Marco
Marco's picture

Pre-2008 if 90% of loans go bad the bank assets get transferred to the FDIC, because the market for the loans would have collapsed as well. Bankers generally steal their wealth through compensation, dividends, bonuses etc.

Bankers have always concentrated wealth through fractional reserves, with or without government guarantees ... and they have always made sure that even if the banks themselves blew up they retained their gains.

Banks are designed to blow up really, even the central banks ... but even when they do the stolen wealth is going to remain with the elite.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:40 | 2173641 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

Yep.

And what I meant to state earlier, to be more complete, is that:

Not only do they lose nothing, they actually gain all real assets that were pledged as collateral to securitize most of the loans that went 'bad' - Harvest.

Repeat this process of Harvest by first inflating the money supply, getting people deeply indebted (many of whom weren't indebted before), and soon enough, with enough cycles of harvest, what belonged to many will be concentrated in the hands of a few, all via the sham that is fractional reserve banking.

It's the biggest scam in the history of mankind.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:34 | 2173728 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

"They created money from nothing and received the protection of the nation in distributing fiat monopoly currency. Not only do they lose nothing, the actually gain all real assets that were pledged as collateral to securitize most of the loans that went 'bad."

You are exactly right.  Whether one believes it was planned all along, or if they were just taking advantage of a crisis they didn't see coming, doesn't matter.  The reality is that the wealth ends up in the hands of those who should have taken the losses.  And it is self-reinforcing: more assets/wealth leads to even greater power to lobby and change the laws to favor them even more, leading to them obtaining even more...

We are on the slippery slope.  It gets worse before it gets better, because we are beyond the point of being able to reign them in.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:54 | 2173759 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

That's why I love this quote by one who was an insider (an admission, if you will), as to how deep and rigged the fractional reserve money/fiat-from-thin-air scam runs (this individual was on the inside, and yet saying as long as central bankers can create deposits, they will always and forever run the table). This is pulling back the curtains to reveal the Ponzi:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin.
The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them,
but leave them the power to create deposits,
and with the flick of the pen they will
create enough deposits to buy it back again.
However, take it away from them, and
all the great fortunes like mine
will disappear and they ought to disappear, for
this would be a happier and better world to live in.
But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers
and pay the cost of your own slavery,
let them continue to create deposits."

--- Sir Josiah Stamp (1880-1941)

President of the Bank of England & 2nd richest man in Britain at the time

Source: Speaking at the Commencement Address of the University of Texas in 1927

 

Stamp wasn't railing against capitalism in the least. In fact, just the opposite...fractional reserve banking using fiat conjured from thin air, having no inherent value, and being the province of a select few (to create it) while giving them monopoly status is ANTITHETICAL TO CAPITALISM.

That's the cruelest irony of all!


Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:16 | 2173795 AustriAnnie
AustriAnnie's picture

TIS, you are full of great sources/information.  I had read about Stamp (during my undergrad) but never heard that quote.  

Thank you for your comments, I often follow your links/quotes/sources and end up learning something.  I have used your comments to help convince others as well.  

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:09 | 2174116 geekgrrl
geekgrrl's picture

Thanks to everyone for the great comments on this thread! There is always more to learn!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:28 | 2174156 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Yes thanks, this has been an eloquent accurate chain

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:35 | 2175106 swani
swani's picture

Sylvia Plath

When a country or entity cheats a Central Bank, it's because the Central Bank wants them to. Getting third world countries with vast natural resources into enormous and unsustainable debt has been the basic 101 Modus Operandi of Economic Hitmen forever, an easy and sure way to take hard assets in exchange for worthless paper. All part of a long and well thought out plan for a group of monopolists to control the resources of the world. Greece is just a pawn in a much bigger game. 

You are probably some sort of apparachick here for disinformation purposes only, but for what it's worth, I had to respond to your drivel.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:46 | 2173328 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

"So are bailouts the answer or not?" it's as simple as that. in short "it's not the debt at all...but who pays when the debt bomb goes off." cuz if you think anything is really being financed by the private sector right now (that benefits the American economy in a material way...and Wall Street i might add) i've got a Bank of New York to sell you! (that does not make me bearish btw. "fortune fixation" is everywhere and always being shoved down Planet People's throat. no. the only winners in the last 60 in New York City have been the Peregrine Falcon population. Ever see a Peregrine Falcon attack? Here...have a look:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=legzXQlFNjs&feature=player_detailpage
looks like we're moving up in the world!)

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:11 | 2173440 VelvetHog
VelvetHog's picture

It is really something to see one of those falcons catching a swift in midair.  They collide at at very high rate of speed.  The impact makes a "whumpf" sound that you can hear from 100m away.  Much more impressive than Turbo Timmay or Benjy the Helicopter will ever be.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:14 | 2173587 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

that's how you take out a banker. "high speed" baby. Bankers travel in large flocks..."schools" if you will. There's no such thing as "the renegade banker." To take one out you need to climb up REAL high...then dive REAL fast...and hope you have the braking power before both of you go SPLAT on the pavement. Here's a Bear doing the same thing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0NcJ_63z-mA

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:12 | 2173444 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Cursive

Some people say a man is made outta mud.
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood.
Muscle and blood, skin and bones;
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong.

You load sixteen tons an' what do you get?
Another day older deeper and debt.
St Peter don't you call me I cause can't go:
I owe my soul to the company store.

Well, I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine.
I picked up a shovel, Iwalked out to the mine.
I loaded sixteen tons of Number 9 coal,
An' the store boss said: "Well, bless my soul."

You load sixteen tons an' what do you get?
Another day older deeper and debt.
St Peter don't you call me I cause can't go:
I owe my soul to the company store.

Well, I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain.
Fightin' an' trouble are my middle name.
I was raised in the canebreak by an old mama lion,
Can't no high-toned woman makes me walk the line.

You load sixteen tons an' what do you get?
Another day older deeper and debt.
St Peter don't you call me I cause can't go:
I owe my soul to the company store.

Well, if you see me comin', better step aside.
A lotta men didn't; a lotta men died.
One fist of iron, the other of steel.
If the right one don't get you, then the left one will.

You load sixteen tons an' what do you get?
Another day older deeper and debt.
St Peter don't you call me I cause can't go:
I owe my soul to the company store.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:16 | 2173459 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Gully Foyle

I always loved that song.  Thanks for the reminder.  Gonna roll out the ole Bourbon barrel tonight....

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:22 | 2173475 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Cursive

I've only heard the Tennesse Ernie Ford version, that was the Frankie Lane. Looks to be no major difference.

Listen to this and watch a couple seasons of Justified, get your Good Ol Boy on.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:10 | 2174024 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Gully Foyle

It's kinda late, so you may not read this, but my wife and I are huge "Justified" fans!  Natalie Zea.  Mmmm.  You should defintely visit the bourbon distilleries in Kentucky.  The "Bourbon Trail" is great, but dont miss Buffalo Trace, which is not on the trail and is probably the best.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:22 | 2174229 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

Cursive

So you team Boyd or Team raylan?

Tim Olyphant is just about now making Raylan a "whole" character. For the first coupld of seasons Seth Bullock tinged Raylan quite a bit.

But the real talent has been Walton Goggins. I doubt there is a better actor on television right now.


Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:07 | 2174352 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@Gully Foyle

Forgive me, I have a thing for white hats, even when it's an anti-hero type like Raylan.  Maybe more so when it's the anti-hero type.  I don't see the two men as all that different, one just has a touch more color and flare as eveidenced by his wit, such as "When you're done with a man, you're done with a man (shoots man under the table)."  IIRC.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:11 | 2174120 economics1996
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 22:46 | 2174184 vh070
vh070's picture

...and deeper in debt?

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:31 | 2173275 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

Don't underestimate the complex that pushes people into things which are not in their interest Trav old fruit. There is such a thing as predatory lending or have you been living in cave?

K@

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:59 | 2173379 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

who cares about predatory lending..  fuckin over poor shits credit for short term bonus would flame out in no time, but BAILING this out into a fucking wildfire is the crime of all history

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:55 | 2173541 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

Agreed. Bailout blitzkrieg is not the answer.

K@

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:50 | 2173661 Marco
Marco's picture

Poor shits credit has been fucked over for 4 decades, since Nixon ... so no, it didn't flame out in no time.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:37 | 2173733 Whiner
Whiner's picture

Need to break down the Banks and start over. Younger folk should organize on the net to warn China, et al, they ain't paying these Sov debts, so they better stop buying crap they know is worthless. Then they need to organize behind someone who has moxey, sense and articulation to blow up the debt bomb and start over. A new revolution is what is needed. Who can wake them up. I am sorry. RP is not the man, even though I support him.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:59 | 2174270 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

If by some cosmic intervention Ron Paul were to become the next President, everyone would be on his case for not "fixing" this mess within his first two years in office.   It becomes his baby then.   Truth is, nobody can "fix" any of this with the tools currently at hand.  It will take dynamite and a crow bar to git 'er done.   Oh, and one more thing, would somebody PLEASE dismember Larry Summers.  He keeps coming back like a bad burrito.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:03 | 2174355 Cursive
Cursive's picture

@RockyRacoon

Truer words were never spoken.  I'm voting for RP, but I doubt that even he could fix this mess.  We may be past the point of no return.  Regardless, we persevere.  Maybe we'll get lucky or something.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:25 | 2174729 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

Rocky, I think you hit on the solution, feed him bad burritos

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 16:50 | 2175752 Escapeclaws
Escapeclaws's picture

But he thrives on rot! Put some anti-bacterial medicine in his burrito and watch him shrivel up and finally disappear in a puff of smoke.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:40 | 2173737 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

the most important aspect of predatory lending was the fact they knew these loans were bad and would be 'securitized' and sold out.  but they sold some to real 'investors' (insurance, pensions) and they bought back loads of them, which they then borrowed more against.  furthering increasing the ponzi and the size of bailouts.  then they borrowed them back again into 'CDOS'.  so the insurance and pensions etc. get a 1 to 1 bailout - but the cdo's needed a 3x unless they were cdo 2x and then they needed (somebody run the math for me?)

 

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 12:04 | 2174845 chunga
chunga's picture

Neil Garfield explains it wonderfully in this 9 minute video.

Foreclosure Defense - What You Need To Know 2/2

The good part is at the end.

A house isn't an investment. It has a roof and walls and is a place to live.

It's not for Mr. and Mrs. Smith to live in though. Mr. Credit Default Swap lives there and no trespassing allowed.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 14:07 | 2175234 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Nice strawman!

poor shit's credit.

Spin till you fall over,

the guy who had nothing to start with can't lose anything in the game.

Fucking evil zionista banker, buy silver vote ron paul the world is over as we know it.

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:20 | 2173463 Gully Foyle
Gully Foyle's picture

BadKiTTy

"There is such a thing as predatory lending"

Hey now Billy, when do we start accounting for personal responsibility. The real fact is personal greed and the need to feel superior to your neighbors is the issue.

It's like when they equate poverty with crime forgetting the billions of poor people who never commit crimes.

Maybe these quotes from the Brit show HUSTLE will make things clear.

The Rules of the Con
  • Find somebody who wants something for nothing, then give him nothing for something
  • You can’t cheat an honest man
  • Never give a sucker an even break
  • Feed the greed
  • Always give the mark an out
  • It's all in the detail
  • Always look out for No. 1
  • Always have a Plan B
  • It's not just about the money
  • Don’t have anything in your life you can’t walk away from in a second
  • We always take care of our own

Mickey: (Voiceover) God made a garden for man and woman and he told them 'Do not eat the fruit from that tree.' A serpent visited the woman and offered her an apple from the tree. He told her the apple would give her knowledge. He was very pursuasive. And mankind has been paying the price ever since... All because we were tempted by something we didn't need. The serpent was the first grifter.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:02 | 2173554 BadKiTTy
BadKiTTy's picture

Yep. Fat people are fat because they eat too much, no doubt. Greed is at the core. So where is the personal responsibility for the CEOs who fail but get millions, the politicians who lie and fail us, and the corporates who get to make the 'laws''? The whole thing is fucked IMHO.

The bailouts are for the banks, not the Greeks.

k@

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:13 | 2174220 Manthong
Manthong's picture

 

These are the two that will trip up the current con-men-in charge:

“Always give the mark an out”

“It's not just about the money

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 00:32 | 2174313 Mariposa de Oro
Mariposa de Oro's picture

ever heard of hypothyroidism?

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:43 | 2174779 Big Corked Boots
Big Corked Boots's picture

That wouldn't fit with his need to be "above" someone.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 01:52 | 2174386 rayduh4life
rayduh4life's picture

Predatory lending it is.  Around here, a lot of payday loan places and folks with little means using them.  They write a check the "lender" holds until payday when the sucker can only afford the interest.  The "loan" gets rolled over a few times and then there isn't any more bllod to be sucked from the borrower.  Anywho, around here, when the game comes to the inevitable conclusion, the payday loan place calls the cops and has the sucker arrested for writing a bad check which was the entire premise of the business. 

Disgusting what we've come to.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:12 | 2173352 Benjamin Glutton
Benjamin Glutton's picture

@Trav777

 

poor Banker victims...since you are up on redlining exactly how much money did the poor victimized Banks pay out in real dollars as a result of said lawsuits?

 

surely you can produce evidence of huge payouts that forced Banks to make these bad loans...or maybe you can instead show Bankers being sentenced to prison for non compliance.

 

put the money where your mouth is.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:13 | 2174714 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

and those other kind of bankers, those ones who were forced to bundle all these "bad guy" mortgages and forced again to sell them all over the world as sure things. I bet that hurt. You see with Trav, when you're the smartest man in the world, you have little sympathy for others' inferior decisions. And the amazing thing about inferior decisions is that they magically transform the bad guys into innocent bystanders. In Trav world, rape victims need to pick safer streets and better dates. 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:21 | 2174726 chunga
chunga's picture

Nice clean head-shot.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:46 | 2175154 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Be real.

can't blame them,

but the poor guy came into the game with nothing and left with the cash.

any other portrayal of sub prime lending is a joke.

the bankers of course engaged in it because they had a double wide around the globe buyers of the debt, professional money manager buyers without whom there would have been no market.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:56 | 2173368 dark pools of soros
dark pools of soros's picture

if you don't pay you give up collateral -  what, they just put up peanuts and lint as collateral??  oh, no... they KNEW they could get the taxpayers to back all the loans...  yeah so what fucking logic are your using here?

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:07 | 2173421 LasVegasDave
LasVegasDave's picture

deadbeats are fungible, just like fiat based debt.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:32 | 2173625 css1971
css1971's picture

95% of money is based on debt.

The system has to expand to function. Once all of the creditworthy debtors are used up, the only way to expand the system is to lend to non creditworthy ones.

It's a pyramid scheme. A con. There are those running it and those caught in it.

That's all there is to it.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 08:28 | 2174589 e-recep
e-recep's picture

nice, concise and to the spot summary. that's why all the fucking bankers and politicians are seeking "growth" like mad men.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 11:18 | 2174724 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

nice and concise,

put the system on "Ice"

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:44 | 2173746 Optimusprime
Optimusprime's picture

Trav--you must distinguish between the situation in the US--where your annoyance is fully justified--and Greece.  There was no "affirmative action" involved there--just typical political graft.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 08:34 | 2174583 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

To trav7777 "I've got a snarky smiley face tattoed on my anus with my finger stuck in it"

Fuck this I'm a victim shit

 

Spoken like a true Ayn Rand disciple.  First of all.....Redlining AFAIK, only exists in America and for the purpose of making sure those who have been historically overlooked because of their race by the financial instiutions were not looked over for that very reason.  Redlining does not exist for the ECB, Germany and Greece.

Now obviously, that is one brick on this road to hell we are on, that was laid by liberals who worship the ideology of the compassionate man.  But as a devotee to the ideology of the free to be pathological man (Ayn Rand), you fail to notice the chicken and egg conundrum....

The victim has no ability to produce currency and/or debt.  Only the banksters do.  And they all fully understood Greece's financial situation all the way down the line even before they began to loan it money.  They all knew the Greeks' reputation for fraud and high lifestyles.  Yet they also knew it was a safe bet.  Ride em' dirty until they can't be ridden any more.....try to enslave them in austerity measure to squeeze out just a little bit more dimenishing return until the inevitable default....then scream about how we cannot possibly allow this to happen since it would bring down the entire system as a pretext to forcing Greece's situation on the world in order for the taxpayer's of the world to, at least on the surface, bail out Greece and save the system....when that plan only serves to bail out the banks and the central banksters.

That is why the banker is always as fault...they always have full disclosure going in...at least at the sovereign level... and multiple firewalls to protect their asses when it all goes south.

So fuck you, Mister "Fuck this I'm a victim shit".  You're just pissed off that you were born into a prison planet which you have no power to change even though your sacred illusion of liberty deceives you into thinking that you are any different from the "victims" you hate.

You were born fucked and you will die fucked.  The only thing you have to support your illusion that you are above the fray is your freedom to fuck over as many people as possible who...like you.....are born fucked and will die fucked. 

You sacred Constitution does not afford you any protection nor does Ayn Rand's Objectivism.  They are filthy whores dressed up only to serve up illusions...just as all Utopian systems including socialism and communism.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 10:36 | 2174669 monoloco
monoloco's picture

I can loan 100k to the crack ho down the street and get 15% interest. Who wants in?

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:15 | 2175028 swani
swani's picture

trav7777

If your subprime government gets into the Euro using falsified and fraudulent data aided and abetted by the global lending cartel in order to make a profit from subprime sovereign loans and other ponzi business like Credit Default Swaps and other derivative paper manufacturing, and if the corrupt banks in your country borrow from the ECB and go on be bribed, lending to their corrupt friends who have business models based around billion dollar bankruptcies and off shoring of assets, and then that government and those subprime lenders, make you, pay for that profitable MORAL HAZARD, you are a VICTIM. 

If you don't see that, you've been drinking too much Sheeple Kool-Aid from the MSM and need to DETOX.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:18 | 2175046 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Please! The sub prime borrower came into the game with nothing and left the game with more than nothing but they are the victims.

Some saw more money than they would have seen given the net present value of their lives at almost nothing interest-and they are the victims.

While those dreaded evil banksters made pennies on the dollar homeowners walked away with hundreds of thousands.

The buyers of the debt are victims too, grown consenting adult professional money managers chasing extra steenths in shit they knew less than nothing about, they big victims of the evil banksters as well.

 

If you can't see that the bankers could have worked for free and largely nothing changes you are an imbecile. They had a ready made market of morons to buy anything they wrote and a willing population to borrow anything they could.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:38 | 2175068 swani
swani's picture

Xkwisetly Paneful

The TAX PAYERS that did not benefit from the Subprime Lending and profitable Moral Hazard, are the VICTIMS. The tax payers of Greece or the US who didn't borrow subprime money, who didn't make money lending to subprime borrowers, or insuring the loans made to subprime borrowers, or from selling the subprime securities to investors, are the VICTIMS.

If the tax payers were not forced to pick up the bill that would be a different story.

 

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 13:58 | 2175199 Xkwisetly Paneful
Xkwisetly Paneful's picture

Go from a world where largely the only access to leverage was for those who did not need it to one where it was available to anyone dirt cheap, doesn't really conjure up images of victimization.

What does that make the world who paid twice as much interest as principle on home loans for the decades preceeding it?  The people who routinely paid 10% on car loans and 20% on credit cards?

Unless one is amongst those foregoing trillions in lost interest income so the charade can continue they are merely a victim on paper so far.

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:21 | 2173250 King_of_simpletons
King_of_simpletons's picture

// Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender. //

 

Pity the Chinese. They are going to take a giant one up their arse when the US defaults.

 

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:43 | 2173647 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

By the time the US defaults on China the Chinese economy will have already imploded. It will not matter too much.

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 03:33 | 2174439 NoClueSneaker
NoClueSneaker's picture

Honk took 'em without a lube in 2008. They still hold an ocean of the worthless T-Bond junk, loosing all the peanuts they earned as a ultra-cheapo slaves for WAL* MART, ALDI, LIDL & Co.

They're getting pounded even if they don't accept FRNs anymore. They should buy MIT, Stanford and couple of other univiersities.

Profs in the US of Debt r cheap, while no money for reasearch anymore, anywhere ( except for the new nukes ).

Prof with tenure costs about 300K . Bejing should do some shopping, right now. Lab without money in the US of A or "everything you want fer your sport" in Shanghai....

Patriotism is a nice thing - but in comparison with Shanghai is any place in the Ponzistan simply an shithole. ( For the upper 10% ). How long b4 the major brain drain ????

_____________________________________________

Hint: the children of the richies in Merkelponzia start learning chinese with nine ...

 

 

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:49 | 2173817 wiser
wiser's picture

"They knew the feeling of great wealth, but it no longer satisfied them. They needed challenge and excitement, and power over the masses was the ultimate game."

http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:04 | 2173216 Alex Kintner
Alex Kintner's picture

"What will impoverish Greece is paying interest on the mountain of debt."

May I suggest the USA ain't far behind.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:12 | 2173226 tobinajwels
tobinajwels's picture

You are right!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:14 | 2173220 slewie the pi-rat
slewie the pi-rat's picture

 

 

  • robotic
  • mechanized
  • predatory
  • corporate
  • fuking eeeeevil, BiCheZ!
Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:15 | 2173227 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Can you hear that? Sounds like central planners/bankers asses puckering all at once.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:19 | 2173246 NorthenSoul
NorthenSoul's picture

 Modern financiers are trying to repeal the Laws of History: Do they really think the concept of debt jubilee has been invalidated? Do they seriously believe they are so much better than their ancestors that the fundamental laws of sociology and mass psychology do not apply to them?

IOW, can they be that arrogant and self-centered? If so, they're in for a colossal surprise...and so are the politicians bending over to them.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:54 | 2173359 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I certainly hope the colossal surprise is either hemp or tempered-steel oriented.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:23 | 2173260 luna_man
luna_man's picture

 

 

"Europe is a good place to start."...NO, NO, NO!

 

It's GLOBAL!...You can start, RIGHT WHERE YOU'RE AT!!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:28 | 2173271 chunga
chunga's picture

Take this banker men. This is gonna sting for the "Secret Electronic Mortgage Society"...

MERS Has A Bad Day (Cheryl Marchant Lies?) and Bonus MERS Motion for Protective Order Denied.

(embedded court pdf files at Hamlet link - nice fresh ones...lol)

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:33 | 2173276 Snakeeyes
Snakeeyes's picture

And watch the fiasco in DC as they try to do something with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

EVERYONE wants a government guarantee for mortgage debt. So why bother getting rid of Fannie and Freddie? The government will continue to control debt whether through F&F or some other goofball idea like Johnny "I'm a REALTOR" Isakson's to get rid of Fannie and Freddie and replace with ANOTHER FHA/GNMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://confoundedinterest.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/whither-fannie-mae-an...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:39 | 2173305 john39
john39's picture

alternatively, the people who control the debt, are more important than the people who owe the debt...   some animals are afterall, more equal than others...

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:10 | 2173572 sabra1
sabra1's picture

let's see what God has to say about that!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:31 | 2173723 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

lots of fun  - problem is - there are a couple of guys running around with using that title.  kind of like 'managing director'.  we all think of our guy as the one - but jehovah, buddah, allah.  don't forget zeus - although i think he's been downgraded.  who is reporting to whom?  apologies for all of those that i missed.  just trying to have a laugh, not stepping on toes.

 

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:34 | 2173726 lotsoffun
lotsoffun's picture

the kicker in lloyds statement was - he meant 'jehovah'.  and not all of us call jhvh god.  so, really, it's up to his tribe to decide whether they agree with him or not.  get it?

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:40 | 2173307 monopoly
monopoly's picture

We have been discussing this exact scenario for months here. Forget the banksters and their minions. Close the doors and put a "Do Not Disturb" sign out while you get your house in order. Default on all the debt, gear up the old drachma printing presses and call the folks in Iceland for a little guidance on how to move forward. They sure are doing a good job.

Why would the Greek people lose whatever they have left just so the banks get their interest payments. And it is OK to wipe out the private investors  but the rules say the European factions must get every dollar. Just tell them all to get Fucked.

Yes, you screwed it up with your absurd living and give aways but start over, take the pain, work within your own system and when you are ready, remove the "Do Not Disturb" sign and replace it with "Open for Business". 

GREECE, YOU CAN DO THIS. YOU CAN BEAT THEM!

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:55 | 2173366 cossack55
cossack55's picture

If you were to get Bulgaria and Ireland to jump with them, they would become the BIIGs.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:57 | 2173668 Marco
Marco's picture

Their currency is caught up with their ability to access the European market (it shouldn't be, but it is ... TPTB have made it clear that if they get out of the Euro they get out of the EU free trade area).

Do not disturb is not an option ... with some austerity they can get away without foreign financing, but they still need to be able to export to pay for their oil imports. Very few countries can afford to be in isolation in this day and age.

Iceland's energy resources are part of the reason why they could pull off their default ...

Sun, 02/19/2012 - 07:30 | 2174558 DutchR
DutchR's picture
Iceland’s new banking disaster?

http://blogs.ft.com/economistsforum/2012/02/iceland%E2%80%99s-new-bankin...

 

The original article was from globalresearch but they are down at this moment: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=27673        (you can still read it through google cache, google: "globalresearch iceland" )

 

"owners of the old banks were given control over two of the new banks (87% and 95% respectively)"

What could possibly go wrong......

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:45 | 2173321 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Fractional reserve misery, Bitchez.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:45 | 2173322 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 

 

Look, we have a new media distraction for the next couple of days. Hahahahahahaaaa 

 

Former IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn to be quizzed on prostitution ring  

by: NewsCore

From:Herald Sun

February 19, 2012 12:00AM

 

It won’t be long, News Media outlets will be headlining.. ‘Our Efforts to Provide Journalism Has Become a Three Ring Circus’

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:57 | 2173372 cossack55
cossack55's picture

I heard his pimp was Rupert Murdoch and The Judge found out and was canned.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:46 | 2173329 lolmao500
lolmao500's picture

That's what happens when bankers run countries.

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:49 | 2173331 MobBarley
MobBarley's picture

As a Rothchild once asked in a contemptouis lilting vocal singsong, "Is poverty really that bad?"

 

Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:51 | 2173346 q99x2
q99x2's picture

  • In the Crosshairs: Drone Aircraft Approved for Use in US
  • CNBC says US Drone Aircraft aid industry in the decoupling process.

    Last year I had to worry about falling spacecraft now they are putting up 30,000 of these suckers that can't even be expected to stay in the air over enemy territories. Then there's the solar cycle, the evil empire and Nigel Farage as guest on Alex Jones. I'm goin fishing.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:58 | 2173377 cossack55
    cossack55's picture

    Be sure to claim that all of your PMs and guns fell overboard.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:51 | 2173351 William Wallace
    William Wallace's picture

    The Greek people are not really responsible for getting themselves into debt.  The Greek government did it to them.

    The banks bribed the government to do it to them.  The banks gave politicians cushy jobs and other goodies in return for putting the Greeks deeper into debt.  The banks controlled the media, and the banks controlled the economics departments of universities, both of which told the Greek sheeple that debt was a good thing.

    The debt was imposed on the Greek people by the banks, the government, the universities and the media.

    The Greeks should repudiate the debt and impose heavy fines on all these people who betrayed their own countrymen by saddling them with crushing, unpayable debt.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:53 | 2173765 Whiner
    Whiner's picture

    Could that also be what's going down hard in IOUSA? Get your family or self into a fortress, self sustaining, Chumps!

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:11 | 2173791 LasVegasDave
    LasVegasDave's picture

    who voted the pols in?

    The pols acted on behalf of the greek people who wanted goodies and lots and lots of free stuff.

    I gotta laugh when I hear the term "debt slave"

    As if the debt just magically appeared.  Greeks pissed away the $$ the crooked bankers lent them.

    If they want to default, let them. But slaves?  Yeah, slaves with 30 hour work weeks.  and pensions.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:17 | 2173910 Excursionist
    Excursionist's picture

    My thought exactly.  A fool and his money are soon parted, and in the case of the Greek populace, fools and their freedom are soon parted.

    Why oh why does ZH continue to give air time to buffoons claiming banks' culpability in nations, states, cities, corporations and individuals over-leveraging themselves?

    I'll say it once again - lenders are like enterprising crack dealers providing supply to meet demand.  You don't want to end up face down in the gutter?  Lay off the fuckin' pipe!

    Sun, 02/19/2012 - 04:22 | 2174481 blunderdog
    blunderdog's picture

    The same logic applies to you too.  You realize that, right? 

    You deserve your share of that $15T (not to mention the $80T or whatever in "unfunded liabilities") of debt because you've been getting the government you asked for.

    Sun, 02/19/2012 - 15:39 | 2175564 Excursionist
    Excursionist's picture

    You're absolutely correct.  The (morally dubious) hope by the typical, semi-literate American is that he dies before his bill comes due.  The kids can fend for themselves.  Bask in all the glory of this Baby Boomer ethos.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:36 | 2173954 Augustus
    Augustus's picture

    That is as nonsensical as anything I've read here.

    Look at what is currently going on there.  They are rioting because the government is not giving them enough stuff.

    The population has been lead to believe the communist / socialist lies for 50 years or more.

    They demanded the feather bedding and benefits.

    The government simply gave them what they demanded, that is how it works in an out of control democracy.

    International bankers did not force anything on the population in any way.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:28 | 2174056 geekgrrl
    geekgrrl's picture

    While it might be true that international bankers didn't force anything on the population, it does not logically follow that the population consented to the actions of the government in incurring that debt. That is to say, some part of it, probably a large part, is odious debt.

    Also, I'm in agreement with CHS that the lender is the one who should bear losses in case of a default. Otherwise, where is the risk in lending? If you can lend to a country and if they default, permanently enslave them, then you should state those terms up-front, and not come along later and say that because you can't pay your debts, the people are now debt slaves to central bankers.

    The answer is a debt Jubilee, and it is the only answer.

    Sun, 02/19/2012 - 15:53 | 2175609 Excursionist
    Excursionist's picture

    Pray tell, how do voters NOT provide consent every time they step into a ballot booth?

    If your answer relies on some permutation of 'stupidity and / or ignorance among the electorate', then fine.  I'd then venture that stupid / ignorant voters receive the same treatment as other mentally deficient members of society who pose threats to others (e.g., many schizos are relegated to institutions, non-functional autistics don't get drivers licenses, etc) - their voting priviliges be revoked until their condition improves.

    Sun, 02/19/2012 - 22:35 | 2176583 geekgrrl
    geekgrrl's picture

    Come now. Everyone here knows the public in many countries are being deliberately brainwashed by the moneyed powers. It's all a game, a show. All voters demonstrate by voting is their belief in the legitimacy of the system.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 21:13 | 2174032 geekgrrl
    geekgrrl's picture

    Exactly. It's odious debt and should be repudiated.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 15:58 | 2173373 jm
    jm's picture

    People are base creatures that in the main care little about anything but themselves and their own, just a step above Blankfein and two above the cockroaches.  Debtors and creditors are no different, mirror images crawling the earth.  The "system" as you call it, is the interface between the two.  It's not evil, that's too rich a word for how we screw ourselves and each other.

    While there are truly noble and tragic things that happen every day, the story of debtors and creditors is at best pathetic for all involved, at worst just something stupid that happens.  Money has nothing to do with the occasionally noble and tragic things to which we rise and fall.  Let go of the whining.

     

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:58 | 2173547 Errol
    Errol's picture

    jm, I agree.  I'm your living proof at 60-something that a person can have a middle-class life without borrowing money.  Example: I've never made a car payment in my life...I drove some real junkers when younger, good used car now.

    Lenders want to collect rent on money created from a book entry.  Most borrowers are not investing in productive assests, they just want to live beyond their means.  It's hard to have a lot of sympathy for either one.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:00 | 2173384 falak pema
    falak pema's picture

     

    When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil

    Amen, that says it all about society and its priorities. Putting man centre piece is very important.

    "La seule combat qui vaille, celui de l'homme"...Charles de Gaulle. 

    He was NOT my hero, on all he did. But he did love the historical perspective. That in itself is a blessing. And he paid a high price for his mistakes. Like his defense of "la grandeur de la France". France lost its empire under him, he even dared to sign its death certificate against those who brought him back into power, and whom he destroyed subsequently, his recalcitrant sons of L'OAS. Just for that and for his role as the man of June 18 1940 , de deserves his place amongst the great, much as I abhor his Vth republic, Bonapartist monarchy, and even more so, his neo-colonial  legacy of "Francafrique". 

    Great men are two faced, as their destiny is to clean the Augean stables, all the while they create another one on the sides!

    Sons of Sisyphus all! 

     

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:00 | 2173389 rufusbird
    rufusbird's picture

    Plus +1 just for the title!

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:03 | 2173404 non_anon
    non_anon's picture

    yep, the root of all evil is money, is it any wonder the "system" is so evil?

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:10 | 2173429 Atomizer
    Atomizer's picture


     

     

    Until the Politicians are held accountable for fiduciary liabilities on failed policies, this bullshit will go on for decades. They're public servants working for you. Can you see the illusion being cast?

    If I took risks in my company and failed, I own the financial burden. Politicians don't give a fuck if the risk is lost, they don't have to pay for their mistakes. Let me repeat.. Politicians are public servants to you!!

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:11 | 2173441 JLee2027
    JLee2027's picture

    When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil

    Exactly.  Now when are some of you people actually going to step up to the evil of Child Support. It is created "conjured" debt out of thin air. You receive nothing for this "debt". If you don't pay it, expect contempt of court, revocation of your driving priveleges, seizure of assets, and possibly Jail.

    Now Fathers do have an obligation for your children. But the Government HAS NO RIGHT to tell you HOW to support your own children.  Do you have a living place for them? Food and clothing? Good schools?  If so, that is your support for the children - let them live with you.  Then it's by choice that the other party refuses to allow the children to live with you, then you have NO obligation and the Government has no business telling you otherwise.

    If you don't want the children to live with you, then by all means send a check every month to support them.  But again, the Government has no business making sure you're doing that. This is an Overreach - done because the States get 50 cents back on every Child Support dollar collected. So it's in their financial interest to force you to pay. This is wrong, it is tryanny.  And it is Unconstitutional.

    The child support money then is more important than the children. That is why the courts routinely replace the Father in the family, he becomes a second class citizen when in fact his he the God Given leader of his family. Money is the drug that tempts the Mother into this evil.  They (the courts) don't give a damn about the children. They wouldn't know your children if they saw them at the Mall, but the Courts/Social Workers/Attorneys are first in line to chop up and hand out the money - regardless of the impact on the welfare of the children.

    If you are the family breadwinner it is only by the grace of God that you have been spared this evil.

    This most evil system is dying now.  There are people standing up to the courts and refusing to abide by their anti-God laws for religious reasons (I am one of them). Have faith, we the People will win this.  I predict within a few years these laws will be recognized as the evil they truly are and will be throw out.

     

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:19 | 2173466 jm
    jm's picture

    This attempt at dead-beat rationalization is a step below Blankfein.  Cockroaches.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:54 | 2173538 BidnessMan
    BidnessMan's picture

    So Moral Hazard only applies to borrowers - not lenders?

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:58 | 2173545 jm
    jm's picture

    Read the loser's post.  Do you really want to apply a moral hazard argument to a deadbeat dad justifying why he shouldn't have to support his kids?

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:29 | 2173620 blunderdog
    blunderdog's picture

    Look on the bright side: maybe Lee's kids will starve to death and his genetic material will (mercifully) not be passed on?

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:56 | 2173669 jm
    jm's picture

    I hope he's not a Keynesian.  You can be a deadbeat squatter but only Keynesianism and mistrust of Ron Paul makes you genuine "fucktard sheeple" worthy of abuse. 

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 20:28 | 2173937 JLee2027
    JLee2027's picture

    5 years ago, "Lee" was a lone voice.

    No more.  Stick that up your ass.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 23:48 | 2174254 jm
    jm's picture

    Go crawl back under your rock.

    Sun, 02/19/2012 - 16:40 | 2175724 Escapeclaws
    Escapeclaws's picture

    I gave Lee an uparrow just to even things out because I hate it when people just assume someone is guilty and start lobbing epithets like "deadbeat". It is entirely possible he is a victim and, for what it's worth, he's dead on about the venality of the system and the actors in it who are basically whited sepulchers using moral sounding language to justify getting their cut. It's almost a general rule that people who accuse you of immorality have their hand in your pocket. A crappy mother almost always gets the kids even if the father is an angel by comparison. Why? because there's money to be made. This is just banksters and John Corzine at a lower level. This should by no means be construed in support of actual deadbeat dads who *should* pay child support and are leaving their kids in dire straits. It's the rush to judgement I object to.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 19:12 | 2173787 Boxed Merlot
    Boxed Merlot's picture

    While I can agree with your statement on the surface, there is still more to the reasoning.

     

    The demand for the real estate baskets was primarily from government union retirement accounts that were receiving ridiculously inordinate amounts of monthly "contributions" looking for returns.

     

    These accounts, from the likes of calstrs, calpers, ect.  were being administered by less than astute "members" on a regular monthly timetable that WS could count on like clock work.

     

    These socialist wage garnishing actions exempted their members from the eventual social security trainwreck and only hastened its demise.

     

    Without this demand for "free market" "asset" backed investment instruments, mbs garbage would never have passed the smell test.  But that, combined with Barney fueled ramming of fannie and freddie "guarantees" more than assured the melt down of the US middle class and its current aftermath.

     

    Where's Corzine? 

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:12 | 2173445 GeneMarchbanks
    GeneMarchbanks's picture

    Creditmoney is sadomasochism. We've covered this ground already. More need not be said.

    The monetary system in the West won't change without a major philosophical overhaul and maybe a military coup. No going back. Nations will have to barter or find new 'money' to exchange and find new ways to endure. Those who cling to old wasy will perish.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:12 | 2173447 JohnKozac
    JohnKozac's picture

     

    Zero down loans still handed out:

     

    In the late 1990s and starting in the early 2000s Wall Street investment banks thought it would be a smart idea to go with “easier” standards (aka a pulse) and fueled the housing mania.  Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was put into conservatorship after the collapse and yet little has changed in terms of housing finance.

     

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/fha-loans-nothing-down-low-down-payme...

    House prices will not recover (or even stabilize) until there is a return to proper lending standards; i.e., 20% down, job requirements, etc. Until then prepare for continued falling RE market.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:15 | 2173457 debtor of last ...
    debtor of last resort's picture

    "Who is responsible for the creation and extension of credit? The borrower or the lender? Answer: the lender.

    In other words, if the lender is foolish enough to extend huge quantities of credit to a poor credit risk, then it's the lender who should suffer the losses when the borrower defaults."

    In the end, 'they' will be hold responsible.

    In the end, that is...

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 18:03 | 2173680 Marco
    Marco's picture

    Unfortunately they have covered their tracks pretty well and have spread their ill gotten goods wide through their dynasties ... in the end the only way to recognize them will be by one trait which can't be disguised, they're rich.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:27 | 2173485 jack stephan
    jack stephan's picture

    This is a thousand monkeys working at a thousand typewriters. Soon, they'll have written the greatest novel known to mankind. (reads one of the typewriters) "It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times"?!

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:30 | 2173493 tony bonn
    tony bonn's picture

    "When Debt Is More Important Than People, The System Is Evil"

    praise to the all laudable and all glorious charles hughes smith.....you have finally exposed the wickedness of perpetual debt and the debt barons....

    declare a year of jubilee, declare the year of the lord and his deliverance.....fuck debt and fuck the banksters.....

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:34 | 2173499 Tsar Pointless
    Tsar Pointless's picture

    Well, if we had a more equitable distribution of wealth in this country (i.e, the top 400 richest Amerikkkans didn't have the same amount of wealth as does the bottom 50%), and if there was a fairer tax structure in this country (and NOT the misnamed "fair tax") such as the one we had prior to St. Ronnie of Raygun, we wouldn't have the need for such massive amounts of debt for Amerikkkans in specific and Amerikkka in general.

    A "sound money" policy would go a long way to level the playing field for regular Amerikkkans. But we can't have that. The rich wouldn't get richer. And that would be un-Amerikkkan.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 17:59 | 2173671 snblitz
    snblitz's picture

    We did have a more fair tax:

    US Constitution:

    No capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

    Unfortunately that line got deleted later on.

    Sat, 02/18/2012 - 16:47 | 2173524 zerozulu
    zerozulu's picture

    Debt is a way to control other humans’ life. A society, where people with intentions to control other human’s life get in power is an evil society.

    This is nothing new. This has happened in the history all the time and I can see French revolution II in the making.

    Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!